Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: So let's talk about your business specifically. And like what, like how you build it. First of all, like what, what got you to decide?
Like when you joined Microsoft, it wasn't for this. So like what did you join Microsoft to do?
[00:00:16] Speaker B: Survive in Seattle?
Yeah, I, you know, I had been living in Arizona.
It was at the time probably a third of the cost of living of Seattle.
I moved up here, I got a room and a house with Chris Lapointe and was working at a nonprofit that he worked at. Towards the end of the ban years I had started doing environmental nonprofit work. And so my career was kind of going in that direction and so I moved up here and I had two part time nonprofit jobs. One was doing habitat restoration for salmon and the other was working for Sea Shepherd. Actually I was managing their onshore volunteer network.
And even with a cheap room and a punk house and two part time nonprofit jobs, I was like, I'm not going to be able to survive in Seattle. This place is way more expensive. And so I didn't exactly know how I would do that. But then it was, you know, fate that stepped in and a friend who from the punk scene who worked at Microsoft in the legal department ironically opened a back door and was like, hey, we've got this entry level paralegal position. I think you'd actually be a really good fit for it. You know, if you want to know more, let me know. And so, so I applied for it, not thinking I would get it, but, but of course did. So came into the company in the legal department just being a, you know, just pushing paper, helping the company. You know, I worked on a litigation team. So all the people that sue Microsoft all day long, that's what I spent my first couple of years like working on officially. So the sustainability stuff was always a side hustle. Eventually I was able to make it part of my day job. That took about three, four years, but so I got laid off unceremoniously two years ago. Like all the other tech workers, I got taken out in that wave of 10,000 in January of 23.
And when I thought about what I want to do next, what could I do next, all of these things in order for climate solutions, whatever they are to be effective, they have to operate at the largest scale possible because climate change is literally a planet sized problem.
So going back to what we were talking about earlier, if you and I eat vegan and recycle and do these things, great, good things, we should do that. Is that going to stop climate change? Is that going to know of course not. And so I thought about the impact I could have if I just went out and got another job at another company. And let's say I got a similar job to what I had been doing for the last couple of years, which was employee engagement for sustainability. I could go really deep inside one more company, having done this fairly successfully at big One at a well known one, and help that company's workforce be more sustainable. And that could be really cool, that could be really impactful.
But ultimately, even if one other company got it pretty good, that still doesn't matter. It's just like a drop in the ocean, you know what I mean? And so I decided to start a consulting business because I thought this is the most scalable climate solution that I can uniquely offer the world right now.
I know how to do this thing that it turns out is most, most companies don't know how to do and it's actually really valuable. You know, it ties into things that they already care about. Attracting and retaining top talent, having a motivated, you know, loyal workforce, for lack of a better word, things that companies already care about.
If I can, I don't have to go super deep and make every company perfect when it comes to engaging their workforce and sustainability, but if I can go in just deep enough to help them create the right conditions, again using that garden metaphor, I'm not going to plant your garden, I'm not going to grow your food for you, I'm not going to cook it and feed you, but I will teach you how to do those things yourself. If I can do that at a shallow level across a thousand companies, then maybe I start to get to a level of efficacy where the work I do is a genuine climate solution. So that was the reason why I decided to do it is like it only matters if a ton of companies figure out how to do this. And for me, just the unique cocktail of what I'm good at, what I love, what I can eat, what I can offer the world, what my expertise is, what my path has led me to, made me realize that this is the unique contribution that I can make.
There's hundreds of people that could qualify for any job that I would apply for and they'd probably also be great at it. But this is the one thing that I can provide uniquely that no one else really can.
For better and for worse. I'm in like a weird niche.
So anyways, that's why I decided to start a consulting business and because I wanted to really get my hands dirty and figure out, okay, this worked at Microsoft. And there are many reasons why it worked there and not other places. A lot of it was stuff we did. A lot of it was stuff we didn't do. Right place, right time, right culture. So I really wanted to experiment. Again, that curiosity, what does this look like in other companies? Will this model work elsewhere? You know, this is a tech company. Does it work in an industrial manufacturing company? You know, how do you. How do you do this in multiple arenas? So. So I've been really fascinated with trying to answer that question, too, over the last two years.
[00:05:02] Speaker A: Heck, yeah. So you get laid off. And I know all the feelings and, like, the fear and all that kind of stuff.
[00:05:10] Speaker B: You've been laid off.
[00:05:11] Speaker A: I've never been laid off. I've been fired, though.
[00:05:13] Speaker B: Okay. Well, yeah, arguably worse. You don't get the severance.
[00:05:19] Speaker A: Oh, no, I didn't get the severance, but I got.
That's a whole other. That's a whole other story.
[00:05:24] Speaker B: I'm going to interview you on my podcast, dude.
[00:05:27] Speaker A: I will tell you, like, the launching of my consulting firm, like, with. Launching. With cadence, is.
It's an interesting story, and it's definitely a story about betting on yourself, like, figuring out better ways of doing that, but also, like, really being pretty centered in the fact of, like, I'm not wrong here. I'm totally not wrong. And actually, I figure I can go do this thing better, which led to what I'm doing now. And it's been a huge, huge journey.
[00:05:55] Speaker B: You're the happiest you've ever been, probably because you're listening to your intuition, Right? Like, there's that nagging voice inside of all of us that says, what if you did this? Or, you know, and there's so many things that prevent people from doing that. Fear, you know, especially if you have dependents or a mortgage, you know, things that I don't have. So that allowed me to take a bigger risk than. Than some people can. But, yeah, most people are when it comes to their professional energy.
They're not really listening to their intuition. They're just trying to survive in a system that's hell bent on making that increasingly difficult.
[00:06:27] Speaker A: Yeah. And I want to get into your business specifically now, based on what you just said. Like, so get laid off. You've got the whole fear, all of that kind of stuff, and you're in that. Like, am I going to go try and do what I do now in a different company or one of these things?
No, I'm going to start my own consulting firm. Okay.
How did you figure out what your offerings are.
How do you work with people?
How do you charge? So let's break. Let's. Let's break this down. How did you say go from. I'm going to start my own consulting firm. Which, by the way, and I'm sure you've had a lot of people say this to you. Like, people always say to me, how did you do it? Like, how did you make this thing? So, like, how did you do it? Like, how did you figure out step one? What was step one?
[00:07:11] Speaker B: Well, I had. This was one of the ideas I was considering. And after I laid off, I gave myself six months. I'm like, take six months to just.
First of all, my nervous system was shot. I was having panic attacks. I fainted in public. Like, I was stressed out. There was other stuff going on in my personal life before the layoff that had kind of created those conditions. But having the rug pulled out from under you like that, when you've built your entire life around a job, the benefits, the pay, all of that, right? Like, that's a very destabilizing thing. So I gave myself six months, which I am the first to acknowledge there's a very privileged position. A lot of people can't do that.
But I used that white space to listen to the things that it was too noisy to hear before in the hustle of everyday life and work and hit this KPI and do this performance, you know, whatever. All the crap you have to do to keep getting the cheese dangled in front of you inside of a corporation, right? And so I.
One of the first things I did was step away and focus on other parts of my life. Because, yeah, like, my career has. It's funny, if you would have talked to me six, seven years ago, I would have never said my career. That was an alien concept to me, coming from punk rock and coming from, like, well, a job is a means to an end. I use them, they use me. It's a fair exchange. That's it. I don't have a career. Like, that's, you know. But. But increasingly, as my work became more deeply intertwined with my beliefs, my values, my activism, those things munged together. And suddenly it's like, I do have a career, and I'm actually really proud of what I do. And what I do is an extension, you know, what I do professionally is an extension of what I do personally and politically. Like, so, yeah, anyways, it's a weird side note that, like, I would have. I would have. I was a grumpy punk and, like, I don't have a career that's for sellouts, you know. And so for a long time I wouldn't have even said that, but how did I start? So I, I took space first of all and thought about, thought about all of this stuff. I took a big road trip, I did a 10 day silent Vipassana meditation retreat.
I gave myself time and space to do things that I had wanted to do but couldn't really do while I was gainfully employed.
And I thought a lot about again, my North Star for my whole career is how do I have the biggest impact on climate change possible? What can I do to increase my level of influence inside of these ever complex systems?
And so what I did was I just made a post on LinkedIn and, and said, hey, I've met so many of you over the years through this work, you know, in Microsoft and other companies.
I don't work there anymore. I don't, I kind of have an idea of what I want to do, but like, I'm open to work. If you ever wanted to work with me, if you ever wanted to figure out how what we did at Microsoft could be done at your company, now is the time.
And I just kind of put that out there and was like really vulnerable.
And I was floored that I got a bunch of people responding saying, I've always wanted to work with you, I would love to work with you. And it was one company in particular, ironically, it was the Internet service provider that I had growing up in Arizona who was the first one that said, we'll pay you, we'll fly you out, come run a workshop for us, come show us how you did what you did. Show us how we do it too.
And so definitely had to fight that imposter syndrome and you know, and then very quickly go form an LLC and like get incorporated and like, you know, do all of the structural things I had to do to like get paid and stuff.
But after that experience of the first person who believed in me enough to say, we'll pay you for that, I went, other people will probably do it too.
So time to get experimental, time to figure out how do I make a living doing this.
And so then all the building blocks built a website, started cranking out original content, blogs, webinars, workshops, just getting myself out there. Thankfully, I had enough foresight even while I was at Microsoft to I even was able to realize while we were, you know, running this employee sustainability community and again changing that paradigm of who was allowed to work on sustainability, I had the foresight to realize I should be talking about this in the broader world. Like, this is cool, and at least I think it's cool and interesting and like other people. I want to know if other people are trying to do this in their companies, too. So, you know, a lot of people don't go on LinkedIn until they're looking for a job. I was actively using LinkedIn for years to go, here's what we're doing here. What are you doing there? So, thankfully, I think I already had, like, a good network following or whatever. And once I was very loud and clear that this is what I'm good at, this is what I want to do, I can help your company do it, too. People started coming to me, and not like, you know, not like a flood. Like, it's. I'm two years in, and I'm still struggling financially to figure out how to. How to really make this personally sustainable. Because what I have seen. I would love to pick your brain about this, maybe off the podcast in time. But, like, consulting work feels like feast and famine to me. Like, there's a bunch and then there's none. So, like, how do you smooth that out so that it's. Yeah, so that's how I started.
And I just got really curious and really experimental and was like, you know, and then market research, right? Like, what do sustainability consultants charge? What's. What's a good hourly rate? I talked to my peers. I talked to other people in my industry who are kind of doing the same things, and I looked at the big shops, you know, the Deloitte's and the McKinsey's, and was like, well, I'm not going to charge that. I'm like a little punk rock consulting firm. But I found a sweet spot. And two years in, there's still a lot to learn. Like I said, I still have a long way to go to truly make this personally sustainable.
But I am getting enough signal from the universe, enough opportunity, getting to be invited to podcasts like this. Last week, I was in California filming a LinkedIn learning course. So I get to do my own instructional course on this. Now. There's enough opportunities coming to me that I'm, like, convinced there's something here. And so, kind of we were talking about earlier. I'm just like, I'm dialed into that intuition. I'm listening to that voice, and I'm like, I trust you.
I would say the hardest part of starting my own business and, like, making that transition from employee to entrepreneur was learning how to trust my own intuition. But I'M dialed in now. We trust each other. We got it. We're good.
[00:13:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I. I love what you just said. And I'll. I'll give you two things. For me, one time, One time I had someone in my life, kind of.
They were going through whatever kind of difficult they were facing, some headwinds, and. And I was given some advice, and they're like, yeah, whatever. Everything comes so easy to you. And I was like, what do you mean? They're like, oh, it's like opportunities just drop in your lap all the time. And I was like, do you actually really think that?
And they're like, yeah, I do. I think it's like. And they had, like, all this stuff, and I was in the moment, didn't say anything about it, but I thought about it a lot afterwards. And one of the things, I think for anyone who has, like, their own business and does, like, a.
Not just a consulting firm, but their own business, it's all about the work that you did way before you even knew you were going to have your own business. It's all about the relationships you have, the interests. Like you'd said earlier, like, you know, I'm like, I'm super. I got into this because I care. Like, I'm actually interested in this. Like, I'm not a scientist. I'm an activist. I wanted to know more.
Everything I've ever done, it's because, like, I was, like, really, really interested in it. I was really interested in psychology. I was really interested in, like, social conditions. How do we help people with addiction and mental health? How do we create, like, different kinds of systems to aid in a situation that the government has just, like, dropped the ball on and just let people suffer? How do you move beyond just telling people, like, just, just don't do drugs? It's like, well, no, that's stupid. Like, how do we. How do we, like, embrace people with all. All sorts of different kinds of backgrounds and people who are living active addiction and try and return, like, humanity back into it? Like, I was just genuinely interested in these things, but is also interested in punk and hardcore and creativity and building communities.
And so everything that I ever have ever done just based on, like, having relationships and, like, being interested in things and doing it. That's why I can do a business. It's because I have relationships with people. I know how to. I know how to learn about something and then take what I've learned, patch it together, and make it really approachable the same way that you have. And so when I started not Just my own business. But anything I've ever done, it might just seem that things get dropped into my lap, but they don't get dropped into my lap. They got there.
It's. That's something. A seed I planted like 15 years ago, 20 years ago, five years ago, that have now borne fruit.
So that's thing number one. But thing number two, and I hear this in your own story, you have to 100% believe your own shit. You have to 100%, but also be equally willing to be told you're full of shit. And there are a lot of times where I've gone into a space and someone's like, well, why should I listen to you? And I'd be like, because I am actually a subject matter expert and here's why. And boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. But there also has to be times where people not have to be. There have been times where it's like, oh, no, I actually totally, like, I need you to tell me how I could have done better here or where I need to go. And that humility, like, the. The. The confidence to totally believe your own shit and the humility to be absolutely know when you could do better or when you didn't hit the mark, those things. So it's like, it's always about, no, nothing is given, or, I don't want to say nothing's giving. I haven't had anything given. To me, I had to, like, really build things. And those things sometimes take years to bear fruit. And I didn't do it to get something. I did it because I actually cared and was interested in it. But as a result, I do have kind of, like, sustainable opportunities. So that kind of goes to, like, maybe we'll talk about it later. It's like, yeah, I have sustainable opportunities because of, like, all of my work over all the years. But the flip side, too is also I know what I'm good at, and I'm very willing to hear what I suck at.
[00:16:59] Speaker B: Yeah, that resonates a lot. It's like, know what you know. You know, by the time you're in a position in your career to start a business and have anybody give a shit and pay you for anything, probably know some stuff, but you also need to acknowledge what you don't know. And like, you said that humility. And it's like, I know what I know, I know what I don't know. I'm trying to edge that constantly and be like, I want to learn more and I want to, I don't know, want. I want to become Known.
And having that passion and that curiosity to constantly be learning really will take you so far, right? Like again, curiosity is I think, one of the most important sort of root behaviors that you can have that will permeate into every part of your life and bring things to you. Right. Like this starts to get into some of the woo woo stuff. But like, I do feel like I'm at a point, not only in my career, but in my entire life where I am living in energetic alignment from all of the things from. Again, like, what can I be paid for? What do I love? What does the world need for me? What can I uniquely provide?
And when you hit that place, right, like many people talk about it as ikigai, you manifest things. You pull, you create gravity, you create a magnetic attraction that pulls opportunities come to you. And it's not that. It's not some magic, you know, woo woo thing where it's like I'm like, so I meditate and I do this and. And now, now opportunities come to me. I secret sauce is actually learning how to recognize opportunities because many people don't. So it's creating opportunities for yourself and recognizing a thing as an opportunity and then knowing how to act on that. But I do feel like I'm at a position and again, all of the spheres of my life where I'm able to manifest things, you know, not always exactly how I would expect or who or what I would like. Of course that's not how it works. It's not a magic, not a genie where you can make a wish or something, but either way there's enough.
I just, I'm just getting enough signal from.
I mean, call it the universe, I guess. But like, there's something here and I intend to find out what it is. And I am willing to take a pretty big financial risk to figure that out. And if it ultimately doesn't work out, no matter what, running my own business, being a consultant, that's a really valuable career chapter. Right? Careers are long and winding roads. If I have to go back and be an employee somewhere else.
Okay. Although I have to say, once you taste self employment, it's like kind of hard to. I mean, man, I would really love health insurance, but also freedom, autonomy, no moral contradiction. That's pretty priceless.
So yeah, I don't know, but I'm really just like. I just feel very present and grateful for this phase. I'm like, the fact that I get to do this at all, let alone that I've been able to sustain it, you know, for two years What a gift. You know? Like, not everybody gets to do that. Lots of people have a great idea or start a business and just fall flat on their face for a variety of reasons. You know, maybe it was a bad idea. Maybe it was the wrong time. Whatever. The fact that I get to do this at all. I wake up every day. I'm like, this is fucking awesome. Like, I'm stoked, and I'm showing up exactly like who I am. Like, you go look at my website. Like, I literally wear Animal Liberation Front shirts to corporate conferences. Like, I'm not pretending to be something that I'm not. I am a punk rock contrarian activist, and I show up exactly as myself in spaces where that's normally pretty taboo. And have found that, like, people really mostly appreciate that it's so. There's so little authenticity in corporate spaces. Right. People are.
They're made to be like, plastic, you know? And I'm just like, yeah, I know. I'm not trying to toot my own horn. I'm just saying I'm really happy with what I'm doing and how I show up. Because it feels good. Exactly. Authentically, me.
And that came from punk, for sure.
[00:20:42] Speaker A: I'm literally asking you to toot your own horn. So, like, you're, You're. You're doing. You're doing what I asked you to do. I want to hit on. On something you said there that, like, you know, I. I know I'm sounding kind of woo here, but you know, you're talking about, like, the. The manifesting something, but then you're like, but it's also not woo woo. And I'm kind of hearing this like, the pillar in between. Tell me more about that. Because it's like, there's like a hesitance to put it out there, but then also like a completely, like. No, but this actually is a thing. Tell me more.
[00:21:13] Speaker B: Yeah, maybe it's that. I don't know what to call it.
I mean, you know, woo woo means, Right? I think that's a fairly. Yeah, that's a fairly understood term. I guess for those who haven't heard, maybe we should try to define woo woo and which is actually, like, how do you define that? I'm going to. Can I pull up Urban Dictionary?
[00:21:31] Speaker A: Yeah, man, please, please.
[00:21:34] Speaker B: I want to see how this will be the.
[00:21:36] Speaker A: The first appearance of Urban Dictionary on the podcast. I support it, by the way.
[00:21:40] Speaker B: If you've never looked up vegan, Straight edge on Urban Dictionary is very funny. They make fun of Seven Generations Direct the band set directly in there. I encourage you to read it on your own time to have a good laugh. I don't. Do you know Chris Rouse or.
[00:21:55] Speaker A: Yeah, of course.
[00:21:56] Speaker B: Yeah, they just roast him in that. It's so funny. It must be like 15, 20 years old at this point. But look up vegan, straight edge, okay? Woo. Woo.
Extraordinary beliefs for which it is felt there is insufficient extraordinary evidence. And people who hold those beliefs unbounded or ludicrous. Ludicrous is the plural of ludicrous. Ludicrous.
Anyways, you get the idea. It's like borderline.
I think my association with vu, I would call, like, New Age, right? It's like people who are into, like, portals and crystals and all of this stuff.
And so maybe that's where some of the hesitancy comes from. But for how I would kind of talk about it, it's really just spirituality, right? It's. If we're going to distill it down into one word that's less colloquial, arguably less funny sounding, because woo is great.
Rhymes with poo. Poo.
You know, it's. It's. It's spirituality. It's leaning into the idea that kind of what we're just talking about. For as much as you might learn, as much as you might figure out on your path in life, not just your career, there's way more that you're never gonna know, that you're never gonna understand.
And really just like, being excited about that and trying to figure out, what am I? You know, you start to get in some very big existential questions, like, literally, what am I doing here? Like, why? I didn't choose to be here. I didn't choose any of this bullshit that I'm fighting against, by the way. But I'm, you know, hell bent on doing something about it. But, like, really, what am I doing here? What is my.
What am I if I'm going to be on this planet, if I'm going to be trapped in this flesh. Flesh suit for 70, 80 years or whatever, what am I going to do with that time? What am I going to do with all of that? And so I think, you know, spirituality offers a path to figuring out an answer beyond. I paid my rent on time and I was nice to my girlfriend and I raised my kids and I, you know, trained my dog. All worthwhile things, by the way, but, like, there's a deeper why. And I think most of us really crave that, right? Like, we're for better and for worse. Humans crave meaning and we want to understand the why? And feel like we're part of something bigger. And so I guess my journey into this kind of like spirituality, which is not exclusively professional, but you know, it's all kind of like it all overlaps, was trying to figure out what can I uniquely offer the world if I'm going to be here? And being here fundamentally, especially, you know, living in the first world, unfortunately means that like my net impact on the planet is negative. Right? Like flying around, driving a car, living in first world privilege. Like you have an outsize, you consume an outsized amount of resources compared to someone in say, sub Saharan Africa or something like that. So for me it's like, well, if I'm going to be here, if I'm going to justify participating in all of these systems that I really would like to change, how do I, how do I use that opportunity, how do I use that privilege to have an outsized impact and make it better for as many other people, and not just people, but other living organisms as possible? I guess. I don't know. Now I feel like I'm rambling, but not at all.
[00:25:10] Speaker A: I mean, I'm asking you, I'm asking you a tougher question. So like one of the things on the podcast I talk a lot about is like betting on yourself and not always about like starting your own business, but like just like putting a lot of like faith in yourself. And that idea of manifestation comes up and people very often just how you did, it's like, I know it sounds a little like woo, woo. But then they like in the same, like the next breath will be like, no, but I actually totally believe in this. And like, frankly, I totally believe in it.
[00:25:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
Because once you've, once you experienced it, once you've done it, you know, you believe in it, you know, in a way that somebody who maybe has never really or it has never manifested something for themselves or if they have, they didn't recognize it as that. Right. Like it gets back to that. It's not just that you get some superpower and all of a sudden you're like, I would like a taco. And like taco shows up, that would be dope. But like it's, yeah, people who don't have that lens on are never going to see it that way.
[00:26:12] Speaker A: Totally. And I guess there could be a lot of counters. It's like, I mean, someone could be looking at you and I and being like, well, I mean, of course it's easy for you two to be doing that and saying those things and like, yeah, I mean, I'm not going to argue whatever someone wants to counter. Sure, no argument, whatever. But I will say for the path that I've experienced in my life and the things that I've seen, there have been things where I'm like, I gotta make that happen, and I've made it happen. And that doesn't mean that I didn't work my ass off and suffer and have consequences or difficult things I had to deal with, fall flat on my face, feel humiliated, any of those things. But the goal was, or the reality was I always got back up and kept pushing and believing in that thing. And whether that's manifesting it or whether that's just being like, kind of dogged in your pursuit, I. I really do believe in that and I encourage people. And again, it's not just about starting your own business. It's like, whatever matters to you, whether personally, professionally, your family and the world around you that, like, really starting with the, like, what is the thing that I want to have happen that I believe in, that I really care about having happened? And then how do I, like, become really convinced I'm going to make that happen? I don't know how I'm going to do it today, but I'm going to make that thing happen. It really starts with that, like, kind of center of belief.
[00:27:35] Speaker B: Totally. And I suspect that for a lot of people, if you ask them something very simple, like in the way, like how you asked me, like, why should anyone listen to you if you ask somebody what really matters to you, like what is really important to you, you know, what's your, what's your number one value or whatever. I think a lot of people would struggle to answer that. You know, there'd be the surface answers like, feed my kids and like, all of that, but like, no, no, beyond that, like, you know, I think a lot of people would actually struggle to. To answer that because.
Well, there's lots of reasons why, but many people are not dialed into their intuition, especially professionally. Right. In some ways, it's kind of horrible. Careers. The way that companies and careers are set up is to make you intentionally deaf to your intuition. Because if you were actively listening to that voice inside you, you might not work for that company or do that horrible thing or, you know, whatever the case, let's just say if people were all listening to their intuition, they'd make very different choices.
[00:28:34] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. All right. I do have a question that I'm, like, real interested about. Okay. You know, we've talked a bit about the, the change in tone, and I Don't know.
I don't know if this is the therapist in me or not, or if any of one had been seeing this. But a few years ago, I had already been saying, like, hey, listen, there is going to be a huge pendulum shift where we've got all these really crucial social causes that are like, there's a lot of pressure on, a lot of discussion and a lot of energy behind, and it's going to flip the other way. 100% going to flip the other way.
And I've been saying that for a number of years, and I've been saying it within businesses, specifically around DEI and how people engage their workforce and how they protect the programs and, like, really being like, hey, like, right now it feels like we're. We've got a lot of momentum and there is something coming. And, you know, I don't want to be that guy that's like, oh, that was like, oh, the Sixth Sense. I knew. I knew the six what was going to happen to the corporate Nostradamus. Like, I, I didn't know when I watched the Sixth Sense at all. I had no idea. I was, like, totally shocked. But in this case, I was like, this is definitely going to happen. And here we are in this time where it is, it is happening. And we're seeing the defunding of all these programs. We're seeing a big, big social pushback on it. Like, all of the stuff that we're seeing right now in that.
What are you seeing around sustainability efforts in companies? Because there has been a huge push on them. Are you seeing that same kind of rebound or pushback that, that other, Other things that you would have. Like, I love how you mentioned earlier that we're typically connected to, like, affinity groups and all these. Are you seeing that same kind of pushback?
[00:30:26] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, yes. Right. Like, so I went to this corporate sustainability conference in February. That's like the big one for, for folks in my industry.
And, you know, it was like, I don't know, a couple weeks after Trump. And so everyone's freaking out, you know, rightfully so, trying to figure out how to make sense of it all.
And the kind of takeaway for that moment was for corporate sustainability professionals. We're in a moment of green hushing. So this is a term that's kind of like, we know, we all know what greenwashing is, right? It's when. It's when a company or an organization overly exaggerates how sustainable they are without really telling you the whole story, lacking context or whatever. Green Hushing is the opposite, sadly. It's like we're doing great stuff. We're just going to be really quiet about it because we're afraid of retaliated against or persecuted or getting canceled or whatever. And so I think we are now very firmly entering an era, at least for large corporates, of green hushing.
And so look, some companies are just 100% going to give up on anything sustainable they were doing, right? This is like the very cynical truth. But it's like, if the government's not going to force us to do this through regulation or policy, then why the hell would we do it? You know what I mean? Like, if the pendulum is swinging the other way and social pressure is now saying, you know what, you actually don't have to do that, it'd be nice if you did, but you only have to a ton of companies. And again, I'll put the fossil fuel companies right at the top of that list because every single one of them has backtracked on whatever empty, meaningless net zero commitments they had to begin with.
A lot of companies are just going to straight up just go, well, if you're not going to make me do it, then I'm not going to do it because it was expensive and hard. And you know, then there's another section of companies who are like, we'll keep doing it, but we'll just do like less and we'll be quieter about it. And then unfortunately, I think the smallest group of companies are like, yo, we're doing this no matter what, when, no matter what way the political winds blow. And there aren't many of those, sadly, right? Like, all you have to do is look at all of the strong arm tactics, at least in the US that the Trump administration has been using for companies to force them to abandon things like DEI and, you know, and all of that.
Companies are, you know, self interested and willing to blow whichever way the political winds go for all the reasons that we know. So unfortunately we are entering an era where the momentum that we've had for, you know, sort of climate action, sustainability inside of large businesses and corporates, you know, it's been going really great the last 10 years, building up lots of energy, lots of money, lots of jobs, lots of enthusiasm.
You know, it's, it's shifting right before our eyes. So some will give up entirely, some will stay the course, most will be somewhere in the middle. They'll definitely be quieter about how they do it. But all the more reason why the work that I'm doing I think is like that much more important.
The most I've tried on so many different reasons of when a company goes, why should we engage the 99% of our workers that don't have it's not even in their jobs, why should we make that part of their jobs? Right. Like I've tried all kinds of different ways to see like what, what's the most persuasive, right? Because I've got like a long list of reasons why you should do that. The number one reason actually is because it's really tied to talent attraction and retention, especially for young workers. And I don't think that trend is going to reverse anytime soon. Right. Like young workers understand, you know, people. I don't know if I'm young anymore. I think I opened the podcast by saying I don't feel young anymore, but either way I'm not old. I'm squarely in the uncomfortable middle. But like the generation coming up before me, Gen Z's and younger, right. Like they understand very clearly how screwed their future is going to be because of climate change and they don't want their professional energy to make that any worse. And so there's, you know, I could throw a million Deloitte stats at you. But like increasingly people are choosing what companies they will and work for based on their commitment to environmental sustainability. And I don't think that trend is going to reverse. I don't think any amount of like political backlash can stop the fact that there's an internal value shift happening in inside people. And yes, many people are desperate for money and jobs and will take whatever they can.
But for people who are a little more established mid career and stuff, they can be choosier and they can say, I only want to work for a company that's serious about this and that alone is going to keep a certain amount of pressure on companies. It's funny because I often get hired by the sustainability departments, but I'm always like, hey, can you introduce me to your HR people? They're the ones who really need to hear this message because somehow that hasn't yet. They don't really haven't connected that.that like, oh, if we're a sustainable company and we give people an opportunity to work on that regardless of their job spec, turns out we're going to be able to hire and retain people much better.
That message is starting to trickle down, but I'm like, bring me in the room so I can scream it at him.
[00:35:14] Speaker A: Hell yeah, man. And I think it's a brilliant strategy to be doing it.
It's an interesting time because again like, you know, so I'm.
You're saying you're maybe feel a little old, So. I turned 50 last summer. Really?
Yeah.
[00:35:31] Speaker B: You look great.
[00:35:32] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:35:32] Speaker B: Must be that happiness thing. How do you do that?
[00:35:34] Speaker A: Vegan, straight edge happy.
Those three things.
[00:35:39] Speaker B: That'll do it.
[00:35:43] Speaker A: So when I was younger in punk and hardcore and it was like kind of like that hyper political 90s and you know, abolition was at its top of its game and all that.
[00:35:54] Speaker B: Dude, I was just in Goletta the other day.
[00:35:56] Speaker A: Oh cool.
[00:35:57] Speaker B: LinkedIn learning is technically in carpenteria. But I was like, yeah, anyways, shout out.
[00:36:03] Speaker A: Oh yeah, shout out to Kent McClure. You know, I'm a fan, kind of a, kind of an interesting character because like one of those like love like people loved or hate him, you know. But I, I am a huge appreciator of abolition and everything Ken did.
Anyways, I deeply recall like I, it struck me like super hard. It was like everything was hyper political and then suddenly it wasn't. And then suddenly it was like I don't want to blame the youth crew revival of this because obviously I like that's my, that's my, that's your fault.
[00:36:33] Speaker B: You're gonna blame.
[00:36:35] Speaker A: I, I love like, I love, I love that genre of music. But it was like hyper, hyper political and like, and it could be like the earth crisises of the world or the ebulation of the world, whatever it is. It was like things were really political and then boom, suddenly they weren't and they're like, we don't care. We just want to talk about being stabbed in the back and friendship and. And then that, that transitioned into kind of like the, the rise of core of more kind of like I guess we call like kind of street based hardcore or whatever it is is now like there's a huge shift.
Yeah, there was a huge shift away from like the super political thing. And a few years ago I was like, I feel like, I feel like the youth group revival is about to happen. But in like the political, like in, in the world, you know, where it's like we're going to stop caring about all of these things and now we're going to go down, down this thing. And that's when I started talking about it and you know, it, it's interesting to discuss it with you because like I felt like like literally years ago I was like, this is going to happen. Like you got to. And I would have people be like it's not going to happen. And One person's like, you're not Nostradamus. And I'm like, I'm not. But like, punk and hardcore. I got a shout out to Dave Larson here from Abolition Records. Dave Larson once said to me, punk and hardcore is a bellwether for all social. All social movements.
[00:37:47] Speaker B: Of course, of course.
[00:37:48] Speaker A: And I was referencing what I saw happen in the 90s. I'm like, I know this is going to happen now. I'm not trying to be like, I told you so, like, at all, like. Because I am coming across that way. It's not the intent, but it's the. That when you're riding high on all these things that matter to people, and there's all of the budget and all of the funding and all the consultant groups, everyone's riding high. You always have to be thinking the bottom is going to drop out here, because whatever group right now is kind of pushing these things, there's a group that's not liking it and they're pushing back or they're feeling disenfranchised or any of those things. And I think the wisest thing is, how do you figure out a way to speak to everybody, even the people who are the resistors, who don't care, who are even maybe neutral on it, and they just want to. They just want to do their work. And what, really, what I like about your story, so much of that is being like, no, like, how do we just make this part of everyone's job? And I kept thinking about seat belts while you're. While you were speaking. So, like, when I get into my car, first thing I do before I start my car, I close the door, I put on my seatbelt, then I start my car, and then I drive.
If we go back 40 years, when I was, like, 10, maybe even when I was 8, nobody. There are seatbelts, but nobody put them on. Like, nobody wore seatbelts. When I was a kid and go back, like, 10 more years, cars didn't even have seat belts in them.
And so even just within my lifetime, seatbelts became a thing where it's like, I would never, ever think about driving without my seatbelt. And if I did, my car would be, like, beeping at me and annoying me.
[00:39:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:39:19] Speaker A: Yelling at me. Right. And that happened not because, like, car manufacturers were like, oh, our deep desire to protect people. It's because there was, like, lawsuits, there was, like, legal implications, There was, like, all sorts of things that were making it difficult. And so car manufacturers had to put seat belts in. And a lot of what you're talking about. I was like, hey, how do we disable the idea? How do we make this the, the, the car seat or the, the seat belt? How do we create.
[00:39:46] Speaker B: I love that. Such a good metaphor. I'm, I'm going to use that if you don't mind.
[00:39:49] Speaker A: Please, please do. Because when you went, well, we went to the software engineers where it's like, oh, they actually just kind of figured out how to make it a part of their job. It's like, how do you just make this part of your experience of getting the car? Of course you put on your seatbelt because you deeply understand.
But hey, when they made seatbelts, like, it's illegal to drive that one, People were like, not having it. They're like, how dare you impinge on my freedom? I don't want to wear a seatbelt.
[00:40:13] Speaker B: If I want to kill myself by being dumb. That's my goddamn right.
[00:40:16] Speaker A: No, but, but, dude, that was, that was the thing. But now it's just.
[00:40:21] Speaker B: Sadly it's.
[00:40:22] Speaker A: But now it's just the standard. Right? So, like, my, my question for you as we're kind of heading towards the end of the podcast, when you're in a world now where the climate has changed and you said, like, kind of green hushing, I love that term, is a very interesting term.
How do you continue to grow your ability to work with companies despite this change in tone?
[00:40:47] Speaker B: Yeah, what a great question.
Look, the way that I felt as a young worker inside Microsoft, when I go back about almost 10 years ago, which is hard to believe, I joined in 2016, number one, you know, kind of unique, came from punk rock, came from non profits, came from a subculture, a counterculture, a youth culture, was expressly anti corporate and anti authoritarian. Now, I know that most people, that's not their career trajectory, but the way that I felt in the first year that I was at Microsoft was like, I am a sellout. What am I doing here? Why am I working inside of a giant corporate? Why am I working the legal department in all places? I don't like rules at all. Like, how do I, how do I justify my participation in this thing that is, you know, kind of goes against a lot of what I care about. And at the same time, I'm. See, I'm experiencing climate change. I can't go outside for eight weeks because the air quality is 500 API or whatever, because of Wildfire Smoke or like whatever.
You know, I'm making different financial decisions because I don't believe I'm going to get to cash in and retire at 60 because the world's going to be so unstable. So those, those feelings, not necessarily the anti authoritarian, you know, all that stuff, but like this, this feeling, this energy exists in the workforce of I'm convinced almost every company, right, people understand that climate change is threatening their ability to have the life that they want and frankly that most of them deserve.
So that feeling is in there.
They just don't yet understand how their job is actually one of the most powerful levers. They have to do something about it because again, they've been pushed into this narrative of personal just recycle, just take shorter shot, just do fly less, drive less, ride your bike. Like all good things. Again, not poo, poo, pooing, any of that, but that's the floor, not the ceiling of how much influence you can have on these larger power structures that again, create the underlying conditions that cause climate change in the first place.
So people don't understand that their job is actually one of the most powerful climate solutions available to them until you show them how. And so that is a huge part of what I think.
Well, hopefully it's only been three months of Trump talk to me in another three months if my business is completely dead.
But like that energy, that desire exists in the workforce. I'm convinced of every company. And so giving that voice, giving that a place to go. First of all, making the companies aware, like whether you like it or not, this is here, you know, so like you can either give that energy a productive place to flow or you can wait for the next, you know, walk out or you know, shareholder resolution or you know, any, when you don't give that energy a productive place to go, it's just going to, it's going to pop up in a way you don't really want or like as a company. And so I hope that my work will be showing companies top down, this is good for you no matter what. If what you care about is self interest and self preservation and the ability to keep growing profits every quarter, guess what? This is going to give you all of that for, you know, a million reasons. But with employees, it's also about like helping them understand that like you spend 40 or 50 hours a week of your life in this power structure and this power structure, you know, for in most cases, right, like not everybody works for Microsoft, but like unless you work for a tiny small business, they have an enormous amount of resources and political and economic influence compared to you as an individual voter or consumer. And so this is about bringing, coming back to that concept of, like, energetic alignment. It's like, if you already care about climate change, if you already call yourself an environmentalist, if you're already doing stuff in your personal life, the next logical steps to do it in your professional life.
Right? Like, it's moving up this ladder of impact where you're able to influence these larger power structures, because that's how you actually get to real change. So anyways, at the risk of meandering any further away from the answer, I just really hope that I can prove to people that this isn't going away. Right? Like, climate change isn't going away. I wish it was.
And so the, the necessity for us to do something about it is only growing more urgent as we, you know, get rid of the EPA and pull out of the Paris Agreement for the second time and God knows whatever other insane shit they're doing, it's all the more important now to be holding companies accountable. And in some cases, that's going to mean voting with your feet, leaving, quitting, protesting, whatever. Right? Like, yeah, anyways.
[00:45:25] Speaker A: Heck yeah. All right, so we're about to go into the crucial three, where I'm going to ask you three questions that scale up in difficulty towards the very end, and then we'll. And then we'll wrap up. But before we do that, keeping in mind, we're going to put all your company information and everything like that in the episode bio. Is there anything you want to shout out, anything you want to ask me, anything you want to put in before we head into those last three questions?
[00:45:46] Speaker B: I don't think so. I mean, my company's called. It's funny, like my, my brand, I guess, which even I feel weird saying that is me is my name. Most people don't know my company name. It's like the thing they get on the invoice if they pay me. So it's less about promoting, you know, the name of the company and more about promoting the idea that every job is a climate job.
So if we're going to shout anything out, it's like, please listen to me. I've seen it done thousand different ways a thousand different times. I've making my living off this idea that every job is a climate job. And it's true.
[00:46:19] Speaker A: Hell yeah. Oh, yeah, man, I love that. All right, here we go for the crucial three. So in, in this, taking this leap, starting your own, your own thing, and like, really making it work, what's one thing that you've learned about yourself that you were surprised to learn and you really like you know, it's, it's when.
[00:46:40] Speaker B: You become a solo entrepreneur, there's like, there's the thing that I knew I was good at and that I wanted to build the business off right, engaging employees in sustainability, all of that.
But there was all the other stuff that's required to start a business, run a business, do all of that stuff that I was like, oh, I have to do taxes and I have to like marketing. And like you realize very quickly that you're all of those other departments that existed in your other company. There's like a sales department, marketing, hr. It's like, guess what? You do all of that now. And some of that I had never done before and some of it I was terrible at. Right. Like, I'm still not great at the.
I'm not a numbers person, let's put it that way. So.
But what has surprised me is that without ever having an official like sales role and, and being someone who like kind of cringes at the idea of coming across as like salesy, I have been surprised that I'm actually pretty good at convincing people, I guess, which is really the point of sales, like convincing people that you should spend money on this.
So that's been surprising and a little weird because it's like, well, am I a salesman now? I guess kinda like I don't want to be slimy, you know, like I believe in what I'm pedaling. But so yeah, that's been surprising is like, oh, guess what? You got to do all the things and some of them you'll be better at than others. But just like any skill in your career, you can grow that muscle. You just got to use it, got to put it under weight and flex it.
[00:48:03] Speaker A: Yeah. All right. What's one thing that you've learned about yourself that you realize either you didn't like or it was disadvantaged to you and you've had to manage.
[00:48:13] Speaker B: Oh, geez.
What I kind of mentioned earlier that like, you know, coming from punk rock being.
Having actually kind of built my brand, I guess on this idea they're like, I'm going to say the things in a corporate space that you're not going to hear very many. I'm not shy about being critical of corporations, including the ones I work for or my former employers or whatever.
And that sort of cuts both ways. Right. Like if you're trying to get new business and you're out there saying sort of anti corporate critical things, companies might think twice about hiring you. And that's real. So I'm constantly trying to Find that balance of like, want to be true to myself, want to be true to what's literally going on and not be one more of these sugar coating greenwashing voices.
But also don't want to shoot myself in the foot so that I become unemployable because companies just think, oh yeah, that guy's just going to roast us.
[00:49:08] Speaker A: That's a great answer. Okay, last question. So we're standing on the precipice in a lot of different ways right now. It feels like the world is on the edge of chaos. But my wife always says this thing about it whenever I say that, she's like, but isn't, Like, I always like, this is a crazy time. She's like, isn't every time a crazy time? And like, you know, you'd said earlier, like wearing the not my presidents, like, that was a crazy time. Like, think of what so quaint now.
[00:49:36] Speaker B: I would long for George Bush, Rumsfeld in this moment. Like, they seem nice.
[00:49:40] Speaker A: Yeah, but think how, but think how crazy that was that time. Right? So every time is a crazy time. But hey, aside, shout out to Monica, my wife, she's the best. Um, but here we are, we've got people who have got things that they care about and they really care about, but they feel like there's no way this is going to change or this is too big, or it's too much, or the, the political tone is shifted.
So what's your advice for anyone who's looking at something that they deeply believe in, they really want to have, they really want to change, but they're just like, nobody's going to care and whatever I say isn't going to matter. What's your advice?
[00:50:23] Speaker B: Number one, pick up a history book. Because history is full of moments that were darker, bleaker and more oppressive than this and people still managed to fight back and overthrow them and change them. Right? We lived in an era of feudalism and kings for centuries.
Feels like we're kind of head back towards that.
History is nothing if not cyclical. But first of all, pick up a history book because people have dealt with way worse, more oppressive, more horrible power structures than what we're currently experiencing and have found a way to resist and change and overthrow in many cases, all of that stuff. So it is possible and it actually doesn't take that much. Like I said, the stat that gets thrown around and who knows if it's true is like, it only takes 3% of a population to kind of like, you know, whatever. Either way, a small minority can actually have an outsized impact. So number one, that. But the real advice that I want to give to people is when you say things like oh, it's never going to change or oh, this or oh, that, instead of my answer to that is a question which is, how much are you willing to risk personally, professionally, like you, as a person, how much are you willing to risk to fight for the world that you actually want to live in? And you should constantly be asking yourself that question every time you do something. Because the people who often say that things won't change, blah, blah, blah, it's so hopeless, are often the people who are the least willing to risk anything that actually affects them. Right? Like I'll go vote, I'll go to a safe PG protest every once in a while, but am I going to chain myself to a building? Am I going to get arrested? Am I going to quit my job? Am I going to throw a Molotov cocktail at a police station? You know, like whatever. There's a whole spectrum of things that people can do to express their discontent.
Very few people are willing to take personal risks. And as we head into this poly crisis of rise of authoritarianism, a chilling of political dissent, you know, the breakdown of separation of powers and corporate all climate change, for God's sake, all of these things, what is going to be required if we have any shot at addressing this, is every single one of us is going to have to be willing to take personal risks. And, and that can mean getting arrested, losing your income, you know, like, whatever. Like there's a whole spectrum. I'm saying everybody has to do that. But like you're going to have to risk something. You're not going to be able to just sit at home and play it safe and you know, have a. In this neighborhood, we believe, blah, blah, blah, in your front yard and call it good. Like, that's not how social change works. That's not how.
That's not how we're going to get out of this. We're not going to get what we want by asking nicely by buying more sustainable products or by voting. I hate to say it, but it is the truth. And so that is ultimately going to require each and every one of us to constantly be willing to take ever higher risks.
[00:53:14] Speaker A: Heck yeah, man. Awesome. Anything else you want to say as we close off?
[00:53:20] Speaker B: There was a question that your wife sent ahead of time that I don't know if we exactly hit on, but it was something in the, in the neighborhood of like. Like what? You know, because I do a lot of My work is growing leaders, teaching people how to lead inside the companies I will never work inside. And so there's two things I guess I want to say, which is one, leadership has absolutely nothing to do with positional authority or hierarchy at all. And we are conditioned to think that that's the case in a corporate power structure. Right? It's literally a pyramid, you know, so like, C Suite has power. Joe Schmo at the bottom doesn't. And so likewise, when we talk about leadership inside companies, there's always this undertone of like, but it's based on your position in the pyramid. Bullshit. Bullshit. Especially when it comes to sustainability. Leadership can come from anywhere, and it should. The best leadership often comes from non positional authority. So that's the first thing I want to say. The other thing, there was a question in there about, like, what kind of skill is the best to grow in leaders or emerging leaders or whatever.
I've been really chewing on this one a lot lately, and I'm not saying I have the answer to it, but I think that one of the most important skills that you can grow in people to become a leader is courage.
And I'm not saying I know how to teach courage yet. That's something I'm really going to be focused on this year is like, how do you teach people to be more courageous? How do you teach people? Because if what I said is true, that everyone's going to have to take more risks. Can that be taught?
Can you teach people to be, you know, so. I don't know the answer to that one yet. I'm deep. I'm really intent on finding out. But I am convinced that what is required above all else is courageous.
[00:54:50] Speaker A: Heck yeah, man. Awesome. Listen, dude, I loved this conversation. I feel like we could talk for another two hours. Really appreciate your time.
And everybody make sure you check out all of Drew's stuff and be a supporter and also get involved with that. This is one step, Dion, we'll see you next time. Bye. Bye.
[00:55:16] Speaker B: What step? Beyond.
