Breaking Down Barriers: leadership insights from Harjit Gill

[00:00:00] Harjit Singh Gill: I don't care if you roll your eyes about it because it's what works. Like, I come back to this all the time. Like, look, you can disagree or roll your eyes or whatever. I'm like, but do your thing and see if it works. And when it doesn't work, let me know and I'll come help you. [00:00:13] Aram Arslanian: Right? Like, that's it. [00:00:14] Aram Arslanian: I was about to go off on this whole tangent, and you just said it way better. [00:00:17] Harjit Singh Gill: It's like your thing's not going to work. [00:00:19] Aram Arslanian: That was a clip from today's guest, Harjit Singh Gill. This is a super cool conversation. We get into all sorts of stuff about his role, really get into things about what are some of the more practical applications that we can apply, working with people with addiction and mental health concerns. We also talk about, like, punk, hardcore family stuff. It's a great conversation. But before we get to that, please rate review and subscribe to the podcast. My name is Aram Arslanian, and this is one step beyond. [00:01:06] Aram Arslanian: My man. [00:01:07] Aram Arslanian: Welcome to the show. [00:01:08] Harjit Singh Gill: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. [00:01:10] Aram Arslanian: All right, so for those who don't. [00:01:12] Aram Arslanian: Know the Uninitiated, who are you and. [00:01:15] Aram Arslanian: What do you do? [00:01:15] Aram Arslanian: Yeah. [00:01:16] Harjit Singh Gill: My name is Harjit Singh Gill. [00:01:17] Aram Arslanian: I am a licensed clinical social worker. [00:01:20] Harjit Singh Gill: Which in California means I have a. [00:01:22] Aram Arslanian: License to practice clinically. I have been doing this work since. [00:01:28] Harjit Singh Gill: About 2009 when I got my Master's, and I have worked in psychiatric emergency and then some work in medical emergency. [00:01:37] Aram Arslanian: And then kind of worked my way into a few leadership opportunities. [00:01:42] Harjit Singh Gill: And now I am the regional director for Bay Area Community Services. So we're a relatively large nonprofit with. [00:01:48] Aram Arslanian: Over 500 staff, and I oversee our. [00:01:51] Harjit Singh Gill: Sacramento region, so everything north of the Carquinas Bridge is my responsibility. [00:01:57] Aram Arslanian: So we're recording this in San Francisco. So we're in the greater Bay Area. Well, we're in the Bay Area, but. [00:02:03] Aram Arslanian: You'Re part of the greater Bay Area since we've been here hanging out. [00:02:07] Aram Arslanian: The topic that keeps coming up is, oh, you might be seeing on the. [00:02:12] Aram Arslanian: News how challenging the situation is out. [00:02:15] Aram Arslanian: Here, but it's like, it's overhyped. It's not that bad. [00:02:17] Aram Arslanian: We all live in the Northwest, and. [00:02:22] Aram Arslanian: Seeing homelessness and seeing people living with addiction and mental health and not having homes, it's a common thing up there. And it's something that I think anyone who is comfortable having a discourse about it is very thoughtful about how they. [00:02:39] Aram Arslanian: Talk about it, because it's not like. [00:02:42] Aram Arslanian: People choose to be in these kinds of situations. But one of the things that we get asked a lot about when people come to the Northwest and specifically Vancouver. [00:02:49] Aram Arslanian: Is like, has it gotten worse? [00:02:51] Aram Arslanian: So since we've been down here, that's been this automatic, like, hey, you know, how's it going? Blah, blah, blah. They're like, almost like people are like, hey, it's not as bad as the news is saying. [00:03:01] Aram Arslanian: Every city struggles and people struggle. [00:03:03] Aram Arslanian: But from your perspective, and I believe you have a really good insight into. [00:03:07] Aram Arslanian: This, if you think of kind of. [00:03:09] Aram Arslanian: What'S on the local media or the. [00:03:10] Aram Arslanian: News media or the national media, is. [00:03:13] Aram Arslanian: The area really seeing this huge increase in people living outside, experiencing lots of challenges with both addiction and mental health? Like a huge increase that you wouldn't have had before? [00:03:25] Aram Arslanian: Yeah, I don't have the pit count. [00:03:28] Harjit Singh Gill: Data, which is the point in time count data for Alameda San Francisco counties, but I can speak to Sacramento counties for sure. The pit count is up and so. [00:03:35] Aram Arslanian: We know that more people are unfortunately unhoused right now. [00:03:41] Harjit Singh Gill: Bax is an agency that's been around. [00:03:43] Aram Arslanian: For 70 years and we function kind. [00:03:46] Harjit Singh Gill: Of at the crossroads of two things. So a lot of agencies do mental. [00:03:49] Aram Arslanian: Health work, a lot of agencies do homeless and housing work. [00:03:53] Harjit Singh Gill: We do both and we braid them as much as possible. [00:03:55] Aram Arslanian: So it's not like you have to. [00:03:57] Harjit Singh Gill: Go to one office for your behavioral. [00:03:58] Aram Arslanian: Health and one office houseless care, you. [00:04:01] Harjit Singh Gill: Can come in, you can see somebody and we will coordinate your care internally. So we are working kind of at the nexus of those two issues for folks a lot. And so we're definitely doing a lot of support work around that in all the communities. We're not as in San Francisco County, but primarily focused in Alameda. We have some programming in Solano County which is between here in Sacramento and then in Sacramento County. [00:04:23] Aram Arslanian: And it's definitely an issue that statewide is getting a lot of attention and kind of nationally and I think post. [00:04:33] Harjit Singh Gill: COVID, there's a lot around that. There's some housing stock issues in terms of available housing and the cost of housing, I think everyone knows in California is quite high. [00:04:43] Aram Arslanian: So I think all three of those are kind of nexus factors. [00:04:47] Harjit Singh Gill: My history is actually more in behavioral. [00:04:49] Aram Arslanian: Health, right, we know come from working in psychiatric emergency and for me it was always like I referred someone to. [00:04:55] Harjit Singh Gill: Someone to help them with their housing. It was not my work in the last two years. I've had to basically get an education in this side of the work because. [00:05:03] Aram Arslanian: It just wasn't something I knew. [00:05:05] Harjit Singh Gill: And so I've been kind of steadily. [00:05:07] Aram Arslanian: Learning how does the funding work, how. [00:05:09] Harjit Singh Gill: Do all these kind of things come. [00:05:10] Aram Arslanian: Together and what are the longitudinal kind of historical things, what are the kind. [00:05:15] Harjit Singh Gill: Of race and demographic factors that have come in? How have we kind of gotten here at this point? It's funny, I just had a review. [00:05:23] Aram Arslanian: And it was like one of my. [00:05:24] Harjit Singh Gill: Self critiques was like I wish I. [00:05:26] Aram Arslanian: Knew even more about this. [00:05:27] Harjit Singh Gill: And the feedback I got was kind. [00:05:28] Aram Arslanian: Of you spent a long time on. [00:05:32] Harjit Singh Gill: One side and you've been working on this for a few years, give yourself. [00:05:34] Aram Arslanian: A break and kind of understand that. [00:05:36] Harjit Singh Gill: You'Re learning as quickly as you can. [00:05:38] Aram Arslanian: On this side, but there's a lot. [00:05:40] Harjit Singh Gill: That needs to be done. [00:05:41] Aram Arslanian: I know that there's a lot of solutions being proposed and we'll keep kind. [00:05:46] Harjit Singh Gill: Of working with counties and cities about how to implement them when they offer them to us. [00:05:54] Aram Arslanian: It's tough hearing from a distance people's. [00:05:59] Aram Arslanian: Lives, like, their struggles being used as. [00:06:01] Aram Arslanian: Kind of like media talking points. [00:06:03] Aram Arslanian: And like, this isn't some anti media rant or anything, but it's know, with an election kind of looming in the background, you see that discourse ramping up. It's like cities like San Francisco, Los Angeles, like, are talked about a lot. [00:06:17] Aram Arslanian: And it's easy to kind of get. [00:06:19] Aram Arslanian: Caught up in the, like, oh my gosh, this is so crazy. [00:06:21] Aram Arslanian: But then take a step back. [00:06:23] Aram Arslanian: These are actually people's lives that are. [00:06:26] Aram Arslanian: Being people's lives and people's communities and. [00:06:29] Aram Arslanian: People'S cities that they love, they're invested in, and people who are struggling with. What I think most people can agree with is like a basic right that. [00:06:37] Aram Arslanian: Everyone should have housing turned into kind. [00:06:39] Aram Arslanian: Of these weird media talking points. [00:06:41] Aram Arslanian: Totally. [00:06:42] Aram Arslanian: And I think there's a possibility here. [00:06:46] Aram Arslanian: That people get so lost in the news and the storyline that they just. [00:06:50] Aram Arslanian: Get disconnected from people don't have homes and they don't have homes for totally understandable reasons. [00:06:56] Harjit Singh Gill: I mean, exactly. [00:06:58] Aram Arslanian: We know when the eviction moratoriums ended. [00:07:00] Harjit Singh Gill: Here, post COVID evictions went up, right. [00:07:04] Aram Arslanian: Because that was what was keeping some people housed, I think the cost of housing. [00:07:10] Harjit Singh Gill: I mean, you and I, I'm sure. [00:07:11] Aram Arslanian: Know people who are a paycheck or. [00:07:13] Harjit Singh Gill: Two away from not having paying their rent, right. [00:07:17] Aram Arslanian: I think that's just a part of. [00:07:19] Harjit Singh Gill: Where we're at right now, especially in the US. [00:07:21] Aram Arslanian: Around the lack of kind of livable wage and kind of making general life affordable to people. [00:07:30] Harjit Singh Gill: I mean, I recently saw a meme that was like, don't go outside. [00:07:34] Aram Arslanian: Outside cost $300. [00:07:36] Harjit Singh Gill: And it's like, yes, that's true for you and I if we leave the house. I talked about this with my wife recently. I was like, if we leave the. [00:07:48] Aram Arslanian: House, the coffee shop plus a piece. [00:07:51] Harjit Singh Gill: Of toast is going to be $40 plus a tip. [00:07:55] Aram Arslanian: And then we're going to end up. [00:07:57] Harjit Singh Gill: Going to the park and the kids. [00:07:58] Aram Arslanian: Are going to want something, and that's going to add up and we're going. [00:08:01] Harjit Singh Gill: To come home 200. What if we just stay here and what if we just don't leave the house? And it's like, you can't just leave that. And that's true for folks who are employed and well enough off and relatively privileged to be able to kind of do that. [00:08:14] Aram Arslanian: And so when you extrapolate the cost of daily life for people, it's pretty brutal out there. With the inflation, I think in the. [00:08:23] Harjit Singh Gill: Bay Area was up to 8%. I think it's down to five something. And so that comes up in even my contract negotiations with counties. Right? [00:08:30] Aram Arslanian: It's like how much can we push on this cost? [00:08:35] Harjit Singh Gill: Because it's costing us more to do the work if we're running like, a residential program, oh, food costs are up, cleaning product costs are up, we need to actually be reimbursed for that, right? [00:08:45] Aram Arslanian: Yeah. Housing work, I think, is fascinating and tough. It's interesting that you said you came from a different discipline from it. Early in my career, as you know, I've worked with at risk youth and street gangs, and most of my work. [00:09:04] Aram Arslanian: Had been with mental health and addiction. [00:09:08] Aram Arslanian: Work and really with an at risk population. And it had this kind of like, you're always on the go, you're going. [00:09:13] Aram Arslanian: These different places, and of course I. [00:09:16] Aram Arslanian: Would do what you did. I'd make referrals out for housing. So my thinking about housing was just. [00:09:21] Aram Arslanian: Like, totally not there. [00:09:22] Aram Arslanian: I did two years stint in housing in low barrier and zero barrier housing. [00:09:28] Aram Arslanian: And it's the hardest job I've ever. [00:09:30] Aram Arslanian: Had in my entire life. [00:09:31] Aram Arslanian: I have never experienced something that I. [00:09:33] Aram Arslanian: Took home to that level where I. [00:09:34] Aram Arslanian: Would just go home and I would cry. [00:09:37] Aram Arslanian: And it's not that I didn't hear. [00:09:38] Aram Arslanian: Hard things before, but that idea of. [00:09:42] Aram Arslanian: How hard it can be to get someone a home and to help them. [00:09:45] Aram Arslanian: Stay in a home. I don't know if the average person. [00:09:49] Aram Arslanian: Or even people in the field necessarily. [00:09:51] Aram Arslanian: Understand the true challenge of housing. [00:09:54] Aram Arslanian: So what could you unpack for us. [00:09:56] Aram Arslanian: There, for the listeners? [00:09:58] Harjit Singh Gill: I mean, I think it's just a scale issue, right? Like, when we talk about the scale of the problem and the scale of solutions, it isn't just to housing. [00:10:04] Aram Arslanian: It's like to behavioral health. It's around equity and income. It's like our solutions are often meso level. [00:10:11] Harjit Singh Gill: So it's like this. And the problem is this, right? [00:10:13] Aram Arslanian: So we need to actually scale solutions and problems together to kind of make impact. Because you read a study that says, like, oh, this pilot was able to. [00:10:25] Harjit Singh Gill: Do this much with this, and that's the end of it's. [00:10:27] Aram Arslanian: Like, well, that pilot impacted whatever percentage of the population, right? [00:10:33] Harjit Singh Gill: 5% of that population, or three or 100 people create like, a universal basic. [00:10:39] Aram Arslanian: Income kind of pilot will give certain. [00:10:41] Harjit Singh Gill: Subsect of people an extra this amount. [00:10:43] Aram Arslanian: Of money and watch what happens, right? But then where's the impetus to put. [00:10:47] Harjit Singh Gill: That on, like, a mass scale to. [00:10:49] Aram Arslanian: Make a bigger impact, right? I think that's true in housing. [00:10:52] Harjit Singh Gill: It's true in a lot of our. [00:10:53] Aram Arslanian: Work is the solutions proposed will impact these subsects or some portion of the population. But where's the push to actually put. [00:11:05] Harjit Singh Gill: These things on a scale that would actually impact the greater problem and actually. [00:11:08] Aram Arslanian: Deal with give us a solution and. [00:11:11] Harjit Singh Gill: That gets into a realm I'm never involved in, which is the political side of things, right? Like, I'm not a lobbyist, I'm not running for office. I can make that promise to you. [00:11:26] Aram Arslanian: But I mean, I can come back and say like, okay, well, when I have a conversation with somebody about a program we might run, I say, right. [00:11:34] Harjit Singh Gill: So with this much money, I'll write a budget. And at this point, a lot of my work is working with counties and. [00:11:40] Aram Arslanian: Localities to talk about what we can do in a program or with a. [00:11:45] Harjit Singh Gill: Certain amount of money. [00:11:46] Aram Arslanian: So I'll say, it's like, hey, so X dollars, here's what I can provide you. And it's like, this is what you. [00:11:52] Harjit Singh Gill: Get for X dollars. This is just like going to the grocery store. If you have $100, you can buy three things, right, because that's what Rayleigh is going to cost, or the Whole Foods or whatever is going to cost you, right? [00:12:03] Aram Arslanian: So it's like, for this much money. [00:12:05] Harjit Singh Gill: This is what you can afford. [00:12:07] Aram Arslanian: And if you want these add ons, if you want to throw in a. [00:12:11] Harjit Singh Gill: Block of whatever from specialty thing, those cost money because I have to come up with a way to do them. So we have to work together on coming up with a way to actually budget for that. And so I think it's the same thing. It's creating programs and kind of investing in the things that we need to the scale we need them, as opposed to on these micro levels. [00:12:32] Aram Arslanian: Well, let's get into what the organization does. So if you think about the population that you engage with, and I know. [00:12:38] Aram Arslanian: There'S subsets within the population, but who. [00:12:42] Aram Arslanian: Do you work with and how do you help them? [00:12:44] Harjit Singh Gill: We are in a few counties all the way down as far as Salinas, which is kind of Monterey County area. [00:12:49] Aram Arslanian: And all the way up to county. So, I mean, I'll speak kind of. [00:12:52] Harjit Singh Gill: More generally about my region, but this. [00:12:54] Aram Arslanian: Kind of more or less applies to all of our areas. So we have, again, like behavioral health and housing contracts. There's some overlap. [00:13:02] Harjit Singh Gill: There's like a program that we actually run that is housing specifically to people who are higher level behavioral health consumers. So folks who have high level mental. [00:13:09] Aram Arslanian: Health needs, who need housing support. [00:13:11] Harjit Singh Gill: So we've got housing and behavioral health contracts. [00:13:14] Aram Arslanian: Those contracts will be, for example, we opened two in Sacramento County soon, three wellness drop in centers come in, we'll. [00:13:25] Harjit Singh Gill: Get you connected to, and you can be here as long as you need. [00:13:28] Aram Arslanian: There's snacks, there's juice, there's coffee, there's. [00:13:32] Harjit Singh Gill: Groups that are just drop in and out. Very low barrier, no barrier, right. So we try to be no barrier about things. And on the housing side of things. [00:13:41] Aram Arslanian: Generally by referral, there's a system that. [00:13:45] Harjit Singh Gill: We use called HMIS, which is the Homeless Management Information System. [00:13:49] Aram Arslanian: That's right. Which folks are referred to us through. And that's based on a variety of. [00:13:55] Harjit Singh Gill: Factors that the county determines and kind of says, this is the order we. [00:13:58] Aram Arslanian: Want you to go in. So for those folks, we might have. [00:14:02] Harjit Singh Gill: The ability to do some subsidy to. [00:14:04] Aram Arslanian: Their rent, kind of do some homeless prevention work, right? [00:14:10] Harjit Singh Gill: So they're at risk of losing their housing. [00:14:11] Aram Arslanian: So we can go, what do you. [00:14:13] Harjit Singh Gill: Need, an extra 100 a month? [00:14:14] Aram Arslanian: Well, that's better than you becoming. [00:14:16] Harjit Singh Gill: If we can give you that, then maybe you don't end up on the streets. And we have a bigger problem because the downstream effects of that are so much worse, right? [00:14:22] Aram Arslanian: We know people who end up outside don't have as much access to health. [00:14:27] Harjit Singh Gill: Care, infection risk, everything kind of goes up, right? The more you are away from things. So the more we can give you stability the better, right? So we can try to intervene upstream rather than downstream. We have those kind of two facets. [00:14:41] Aram Arslanian: On the behavioral health side, we contract with the county to run what are called specialty mental health services, which is folks who have a higher behavioral health. [00:14:51] Harjit Singh Gill: Need and really gear their recovery work and support them in their journey. [00:14:56] Aram Arslanian: So kind of honored to do the work because come to this with I've worked previously in county, I've worked in emergency, psychiatric emergency. [00:15:07] Harjit Singh Gill: I've worked in a little bit in medical emergency. And then I worked in a for profit private system for a while. And I came back to this community. [00:15:16] Aram Arslanian: Based kind of organization which has 70. [00:15:20] Harjit Singh Gill: Years of kind of doing this work, which I'm really excited about being a part of. And we do the same kind of. [00:15:24] Aram Arslanian: Work in Alameda County to some degree. [00:15:28] Harjit Singh Gill: Our contracts kind of vary. [00:15:29] Aram Arslanian: Often we respond to what are called RFPs. [00:15:32] Harjit Singh Gill: So a county says, I have a problem, have this much money, what would. [00:15:36] Aram Arslanian: You do to fix it? [00:15:37] Harjit Singh Gill: How would you resolve it? [00:15:38] Aram Arslanian: And so I get to think pretty. [00:15:40] Harjit Singh Gill: Hard about what I think based on what you're telling me. The problem is how much money you have. I'll create a budget, which is not a thing that I learned in social. [00:15:49] Aram Arslanian: Work school, but I did kind of. [00:15:52] Harjit Singh Gill: Learn in other worlds, in our punk world, et cetera, right? [00:15:55] Aram Arslanian: Like, oh, I only have $4, how. [00:15:57] Harjit Singh Gill: Am I going to survive today or whatever. [00:16:01] Aram Arslanian: So take the budget work backwards and. [00:16:04] Harjit Singh Gill: Say, okay, so this kind of model works and kind of work together to. [00:16:08] Aram Arslanian: Say and write a proposal to say. [00:16:10] Harjit Singh Gill: Here'S what we do with the money. And so that's kind of a big part of and then see what the county thinks, right? [00:16:14] Aram Arslanian: Maybe be we go back and maybe. [00:16:17] Harjit Singh Gill: We get it, maybe we don't. Maybe there's a back and forth. [00:16:19] Aram Arslanian: We're really working to say, how do. [00:16:22] Harjit Singh Gill: We support your effort being a part of the solution to this problem in a meaningful way? [00:16:27] Aram Arslanian: So there are a couple of things I want to unpack for people who are listening, because you and I have used this term low barrier or zero barrier. [00:16:35] Harjit Singh Gill: Yeah, sorry. Low barrier might be a program where you just have to call and get. [00:16:41] Aram Arslanian: A referral or something, but by no barriers. [00:16:43] Harjit Singh Gill: Like the door is open, just posted. [00:16:44] Aram Arslanian: Hours, door is unlocked, come in, get a cup of coffee, walk in. [00:16:49] Harjit Singh Gill: We're going to check you in when. [00:16:50] Aram Arslanian: You get here so we can keep. [00:16:51] Harjit Singh Gill: Track of and make contact with you if you need to follow up with you. But otherwise the door is literally open. [00:16:56] Aram Arslanian: You can walk in and out at. [00:16:58] Harjit Singh Gill: Any of our sites. [00:16:59] Aram Arslanian: If we went to probably the nearest. [00:17:01] Harjit Singh Gill: One of our wellness centers is Noakland. [00:17:02] Aram Arslanian: And Townhouse and we could just walk. [00:17:04] Harjit Singh Gill: In, grab a seat on the couch, someone would come up and say, hey, what's going on? How can I help you? What do you need? [00:17:08] Aram Arslanian: Do you need anything? [00:17:09] Harjit Singh Gill: If the answer is no, I just need a place to sit. Okay, cool. Well, let me know. I'll be right over there. That's it, right? We leave it very open for folks to engage with the spaces they need to. [00:17:20] Aram Arslanian: Why is that important? [00:17:21] Aram Arslanian: It's important because people feel like I. [00:17:25] Harjit Singh Gill: Mean, for a lot of our population, they feel like they're not wanted in. [00:17:27] Aram Arslanian: Many places, which is true or not true. [00:17:31] Harjit Singh Gill: I feel like there's a degree to truth to that. [00:17:34] Aram Arslanian: People have past trauma, past experiences with. [00:17:38] Harjit Singh Gill: A lot of stigmatization and so creating. [00:17:42] Aram Arslanian: Low to no barrier places that people. [00:17:44] Harjit Singh Gill: Can just walk in and be welcoming. [00:17:45] Aram Arslanian: And be welcomed and be given the. [00:17:49] Harjit Singh Gill: Things that it's like a cup of coffee. I had a cup of coffee this morning. It's a part of my routine to. [00:17:56] Aram Arslanian: Give people warm food or a cup. [00:17:58] Harjit Singh Gill: Of coffee or whatever and just welcome them in. [00:18:00] Aram Arslanian: That creates that first. [00:18:01] Harjit Singh Gill: So maybe the first time I come. [00:18:03] Aram Arslanian: In, I say, no, I don't want. [00:18:05] Harjit Singh Gill: To talk to you, Ram. I just want to sit on this couch. The next day I come back and. [00:18:08] Aram Arslanian: I'm like, hey, there are place I. [00:18:10] Harjit Singh Gill: Can charge my phone. Yeah, you can plug in right there. There's a socket. Feel free. Do you need anything else? [00:18:13] Aram Arslanian: No, I just want to know my phone died. [00:18:15] Harjit Singh Gill: I need to charge the third time. [00:18:16] Aram Arslanian: The fourth time, and there starts to. [00:18:18] Harjit Singh Gill: Be a rapport there, right. Like, I see you every day. [00:18:20] Aram Arslanian: And finally I'm like, yeah, actually, here's. [00:18:22] Harjit Singh Gill: This thing that's been going on. I've got this cut and it's like, oh, let's see if we can get. [00:18:28] Aram Arslanian: You over to see somebody. [00:18:29] Harjit Singh Gill: Want to make sure that doesn't get infected, right? [00:18:31] Aram Arslanian: Or it's yeah, I've been homeless for. [00:18:34] Harjit Singh Gill: A year and ever since I lost my job and oh, let's see what we can get. Where do you rank on, let's see if we can get you scored or entered into the system so we can. [00:18:42] Aram Arslanian: Start working on getting supports for you. [00:18:44] Harjit Singh Gill: So that rapport for folks is really important, especially for folks who've been burned. [00:18:48] Aram Arslanian: So much by life or the system. [00:18:50] Harjit Singh Gill: Or maybe disconnected from family or what we call natural support system. [00:18:54] Aram Arslanian: So church, community, friends, family who they may have lost touch with or had. [00:19:03] Harjit Singh Gill: Some unfortunate history with due to their. [00:19:05] Aram Arslanian: Behavior, health or kind of homeless symptoms, et cetera, that this allows them a place that they can just be allowed to be themselves. And we're broke. We're like you're. [00:19:15] Harjit Singh Gill: Fine. [00:19:15] Aram Arslanian: Just be you. We're not worried about it. [00:19:18] Aram Arslanian: The low to zero barrier system. And I know I imagine it differs from space to space, like place to place, how different organizations deal with it. [00:19:29] Aram Arslanian: If you're someone who just a person who's not involved in the industry of helping others, the helping industry, if you're. [00:19:40] Aram Arslanian: Not involved in that discourse or you're not educated either through school or self. [00:19:43] Aram Arslanian: Educated about it, it can seem like, well, I don't know, just fix this. [00:19:49] Aram Arslanian: Get people houses. [00:19:50] Aram Arslanian: And I don't want to be dismissive. [00:19:52] Aram Arslanian: Like I'm using the wrist lick out of thing. I don't want to be dismissive of that thinking because let's say your job is whatever. [00:19:58] Aram Arslanian: Let's say you're an accountant or you're. [00:20:01] Aram Arslanian: A computer programmer or whatever it is, it's not your job to know about that stuff. [00:20:05] Harjit Singh Gill: Exactly. [00:20:06] Aram Arslanian: Yeah. [00:20:06] Aram Arslanian: And so I totally get it. But the complexities of building rapport and trust and kind of earning that trust and earning the right to help people because that's that kind of thing where. [00:20:16] Aram Arslanian: It'S like. [00:20:19] Aram Arslanian: Earning the right to help people and not just walking in like, a superhero cape and being like, I am here to solve your problems. [00:20:25] Aram Arslanian: It requires different approaches for different people and time and lots of time. [00:20:34] Aram Arslanian: I've been very fortunate in my life where it's like I haven't had to experience a lot of those things. The situations that would cause someone to. [00:20:43] Aram Arslanian: Be unhoused, but also a lot of. [00:20:46] Aram Arslanian: The situations that would cause someone to. [00:20:48] Aram Arslanian: Be so afraid of a system or. [00:20:51] Aram Arslanian: So hesitant to engage. [00:20:52] Aram Arslanian: Like you said, it's like, why have a cup of coffee in the morning? Or if I need to go to. [00:20:56] Aram Arslanian: The doctor, I just call my doctor. [00:20:57] Aram Arslanian: Or I do this or that. [00:20:58] Aram Arslanian: Because why wouldn't I do that? I haven't had the life experiences to. [00:21:01] Aram Arslanian: Tell me that's a dangerous, hazardous thing. [00:21:04] Aram Arslanian: Or that they might just say no. [00:21:05] Aram Arslanian: So that zero barrier, zero to low barrier. [00:21:09] Aram Arslanian: Just for anyone listening who might not have understood the terms, but also why it's so important. I think it's one of the most important and most human things you can do. [00:21:17] Aram Arslanian: Yeah. I mean, totally. [00:21:20] Harjit Singh Gill: It's opening a door into saying, like, you're allowed to be yourself here. [00:21:23] Aram Arslanian: We're not worried about any of the. [00:21:26] Harjit Singh Gill: Previous stuff, and we're welcoming you as you are. [00:21:28] Aram Arslanian: And we're here to say, if you. [00:21:30] Harjit Singh Gill: Need something, we're here. And if you just need a place to be, we're here. [00:21:32] Aram Arslanian: And I think for a lot of. [00:21:35] Harjit Singh Gill: Folks, that's not enough. [00:21:36] Aram Arslanian: We need you to deal with it. [00:21:39] Harjit Singh Gill: Like, move them right in. [00:21:40] Aram Arslanian: It's like, well, hold on, we all. [00:21:42] Harjit Singh Gill: Need time to adjust to things. So if you want to make a. [00:21:44] Aram Arslanian: Big change in your life, shoving you. [00:21:47] Harjit Singh Gill: Into the deep end isn't the way we normally do things, right? [00:21:52] Aram Arslanian: You want to start running. [00:21:53] Harjit Singh Gill: It's like, okay, well, here's a plan. It involves some walking. It's gradual, right? It builds up to something. It's the same with rapport. [00:22:00] Aram Arslanian: Rapport takes time and sometimes it's quick. [00:22:03] Harjit Singh Gill: Sometimes someone comes in saying, I need. [00:22:05] Aram Arslanian: Help, and they connect quickly. And sometimes they're wary because the last. [00:22:10] Harjit Singh Gill: Three people they worked with left their job quickly and they've been passed around. [00:22:14] Aram Arslanian: Or they were told to go to. [00:22:15] Harjit Singh Gill: One office and they went there and they were actually told to go to. [00:22:17] Aram Arslanian: Another and it took them 3 hours to get there and they've had to. [00:22:22] Harjit Singh Gill: Take two bus transfers. And it's like, that's all system fault, right? [00:22:25] Aram Arslanian: That's not on them. [00:22:26] Harjit Singh Gill: But they've got a right to be. [00:22:28] Aram Arslanian: Frustrated with everything they went through. [00:22:31] Harjit Singh Gill: And we have to be mindful that. [00:22:33] Aram Arslanian: When we create space for folks that. [00:22:35] Harjit Singh Gill: It is a place that they feel welcome. It is a place that they've got. [00:22:39] Aram Arslanian: Things they need, that we take. [00:22:40] Harjit Singh Gill: Feedback. [00:22:41] Aram Arslanian: So if someone says, hey, I'm tired. [00:22:43] Harjit Singh Gill: Of there always being oatmeal every morning, like, I hate oatmeal. Oatmeal is the worst breakfast in the world, I personally disagree because I eat it every day. But if someone said, that's just like. [00:22:54] Aram Arslanian: My least favorite thing to eat, can. [00:22:56] Harjit Singh Gill: We get something else? Like, yeah, okay, thanks for that feedback. What would you like, how can we make this better? Right? [00:23:02] Aram Arslanian: What is it? [00:23:03] Harjit Singh Gill: If it's something we can do, let's make it happen, right? Or anything like that, right? Feedback at all times, like, hey, the groups that you may be offering or the locations aren't accessible. We tried to really be mindful about when we were picking locations. [00:23:20] Aram Arslanian: Like is it near an area that needs support? [00:23:24] Harjit Singh Gill: Is it near a bus stop? Is it easily accessible? [00:23:27] Aram Arslanian: Does it have everything? [00:23:29] Harjit Singh Gill: Does it meet all those things? [00:23:31] Aram Arslanian: Is it a place that people are. [00:23:32] Harjit Singh Gill: Going to be easily able to access. [00:23:34] Aram Arslanian: And feel comfortable coming, right. And not feel like they're put on. [00:23:40] Harjit Singh Gill: Display or made to go way out of the way? And so how do we make this as easy as we can? And so that's been a big part. [00:23:47] Aram Arslanian: Of what I do. [00:23:48] Aram Arslanian: I also noticed I'm using a type of language. You're using a type of language, you'd. [00:23:53] Aram Arslanian: Said like mental health, consumer, and again. [00:23:58] Aram Arslanian: Just for the audience, why would you use that versus any other kind of language to discuss the population? [00:24:04] Harjit Singh Gill: Yeah, I'll use client and consumer because. [00:24:10] Aram Arslanian: They are essentially our customers, right? [00:24:14] Harjit Singh Gill: We exist to serve and provide services and support and accompany them on their journey. And it's their journey, not ours. We're here to provide support for that. [00:24:24] Aram Arslanian: Some of the old kind of language patient, it's like, well, they're not patient. [00:24:30] Harjit Singh Gill: Might be used in a hospital setting because hospitals had patients. [00:24:33] Aram Arslanian: But this is an outpatient setting. This is a clinic. When you come in, when I go to the doctor's office, they don't give. [00:24:42] Harjit Singh Gill: Me that kind of a label, right? They might call it a visit or I'm a visitor. [00:24:46] Aram Arslanian: So we try to use language that destigmatizes and kind of opens up and. [00:24:50] Harjit Singh Gill: Gives the power a bit back to. [00:24:52] Aram Arslanian: The client or the person coming in. [00:24:54] Harjit Singh Gill: The consumers like, you're actually in control here. [00:24:58] Aram Arslanian: You're here. [00:24:59] Harjit Singh Gill: I'm existing to provide support to you and services to you. [00:25:02] Aram Arslanian: And if you didn't need services, I. [00:25:06] Harjit Singh Gill: Probably wouldn't be here. [00:25:07] Aram Arslanian: I'd be looking for a new job. And if we didn't have a system. [00:25:11] Harjit Singh Gill: Where people need if people didn't need. [00:25:13] Aram Arslanian: Services, it would be wonderful to put. [00:25:15] Harjit Singh Gill: Myself out of a job. But as long as we need them. [00:25:17] Aram Arslanian: To be here, we're all going to be here doing the work. [00:25:20] Aram Arslanian: I love what you said, though. A patient versus someone who is in charge of like, well, I am someone who's going to pick between my healthcare providers. That idea that someone has a choice and they're exercising a choice and they could actually go to different agencies and do these things. I love that idea because it turns. [00:25:39] Aram Arslanian: It from like, well, here's a bunch. [00:25:41] Aram Arslanian: Of people that we are going to go and deal with versus here are a bunch of who are a bunch. [00:25:48] Aram Arslanian: Of individuals who are empowered, who are. [00:25:50] Aram Arslanian: Going to make decisions. Now, as we're talking about this, I. [00:25:52] Aram Arslanian: Can almost feel the eyes rolling. Really? [00:25:57] Aram Arslanian: Sure. [00:25:58] Aram Arslanian: But yeah, you have to meet people. [00:26:03] Aram Arslanian: At a human level where people have sorry, I'm about to go off on a thing, so I'm going to push it back over to you. [00:26:08] Aram Arslanian: Here's what I'll say. I don't care if you roll your. [00:26:10] Harjit Singh Gill: Eyes about it because it's what works. I come back to this all the. [00:26:13] Aram Arslanian: Time, like, look, disagree or roll your eyes or whatever. [00:26:18] Harjit Singh Gill: I'm like, but do your thing and. [00:26:19] Aram Arslanian: See if it works. [00:26:19] Harjit Singh Gill: And when it doesn't work, let me. [00:26:20] Aram Arslanian: Know and I'll come help you. [00:26:23] Aram Arslanian: That's it. I was about to go off on this whole tangent and you just said it way better. [00:26:27] Harjit Singh Gill: It's like your thing's not going to work. You can be less welcoming, you can. [00:26:32] Aram Arslanian: Be pathologizing, but it's not going to work. People will walk away from it, and the problems that folks are facing are. [00:26:41] Harjit Singh Gill: Going to stay there, and these larger problems are going to stay. [00:26:44] Aram Arslanian: So why don't you listen to actually, what works? [00:26:46] Harjit Singh Gill: Why don't we listen to the feedback. [00:26:47] Aram Arslanian: We'Ve gotten from decades of kind of. [00:26:49] Harjit Singh Gill: Consumer rights and consumer feedback that says. [00:26:52] Aram Arslanian: Like, create spaces that welcome us. Use words that are welcoming, pick, find. [00:26:57] Harjit Singh Gill: Staff who look more like us. [00:26:58] Aram Arslanian: Right? [00:26:58] Harjit Singh Gill: We're tired of this always looking like. [00:27:00] Aram Arslanian: The archetype of a therapist in a. [00:27:02] Harjit Singh Gill: 1970S movie or whatever. [00:27:03] Aram Arslanian: We need staff and leadership and clinicians. [00:27:06] Harjit Singh Gill: And psychiatrists and providers who all look more like us, for example. It's like we take that feedback in. [00:27:11] Aram Arslanian: Right, and say, okay, so how do we do this so that you'll actually. [00:27:14] Harjit Singh Gill: Want to come here and get help? [00:27:16] Aram Arslanian: And how do we serve you in. [00:27:17] Aram Arslanian: A way that listen to your consumers. [00:27:19] Harjit Singh Gill: Yeah, listen to your consumers. [00:27:20] Aram Arslanian: It's like this is not that hard. And so it's funny when you get. [00:27:23] Harjit Singh Gill: I mean, because people do the same thing to me. They go, AHA, here we go. [00:27:25] Aram Arslanian: Like the lefty social worker, bleeding heart vegan is going to talk about but then don't. [00:27:32] Harjit Singh Gill: Then don't and see what happens, right, when it doesn't work and you've spent tons of cash and you'll come back. [00:27:37] Aram Arslanian: And say, well, what went wrong? [00:27:39] Harjit Singh Gill: It's like we'll be able to say what went wrong is that you didn't listen to the people who you're actually. [00:27:42] Aram Arslanian: Supposed to be serving and so talk. [00:27:44] Harjit Singh Gill: To any other business. [00:27:45] Aram Arslanian: Like if you go to a restaurant. [00:27:46] Harjit Singh Gill: And they only serve things that nobody wants to eat and they don't take feedback, they're not going to be in business. And they can't blame everybody else. They have to blame themselves for not. [00:27:54] Aram Arslanian: Listening to the folks that they're supposed to be serving. [00:27:57] Aram Arslanian: Anyone who's listened to the podcast will hear me talk about this stuff. And I was catching myself because I saw you wanted to speak and I was like, okay, where are you going to go? And you went to the thing that disarms that it has nothing to do with this. Not that it has nothing to do. [00:28:11] Aram Arslanian: With it, but I can stamp my. [00:28:13] Aram Arslanian: Foot and go on the morals about it and someone on the other side can roll their eyes and do the. [00:28:19] Aram Arslanian: What abouts what you just went to? [00:28:22] Aram Arslanian: Which is the thing it disarms all of that. [00:28:24] Aram Arslanian: It's like, okay, well, this is actually what works. [00:28:27] Aram Arslanian: It's proven what's worked. [00:28:28] Aram Arslanian: So if you're serious about solving this. [00:28:30] Aram Arslanian: Challenge or reducing the suffering, this is the thing we do. [00:28:34] Aram Arslanian: So if you have a better thing. [00:28:36] Aram Arslanian: By all means go do it. But this is the thing that works. [00:28:38] Harjit Singh Gill: Yeah, I mean, I think that's the. [00:28:40] Aram Arslanian: Look, I grew up in a much more conservative part of the state, and I have contact with people and so. [00:28:50] Harjit Singh Gill: Occasionally have to test. I'll say something or pose and post. [00:28:54] Aram Arslanian: Something and get some feedback. [00:28:56] Harjit Singh Gill: And I'm like, well, here's actually the data to support why this is the way we do it. [00:28:59] Aram Arslanian: This way I know that on whatever. [00:29:02] Harjit Singh Gill: News that you're listening to. [00:29:07] Aram Arslanian: The idea. [00:29:07] Harjit Singh Gill: Of a needle exchange is like, oh. [00:29:09] Aram Arslanian: Look, they're giving out all these clean. [00:29:11] Harjit Singh Gill: Needles or whatever, but here's actually the reason we do that, and here's what it does. [00:29:14] Aram Arslanian: And if you don't, this is the. [00:29:16] Harjit Singh Gill: Next downstream in places where they don't do that. Whether it's the infection rate of a disease, whatever, right? These are the outcomes that come from that so which outcome do you want? Which of these two outcomes would you rather have? And then you decide what you want to do and how you want to go about it. [00:29:29] Aram Arslanian: And so if I go to that economic and I'm like and it's cheaper. [00:29:34] Harjit Singh Gill: It'S likely a cheaper solution. It reduces these greater down, you know. [00:29:38] Aram Arslanian: All the other downstream stuff. [00:29:40] Harjit Singh Gill: But you can do the other thing if you want and then I put. [00:29:42] Aram Arslanian: It back and say, but in this. [00:29:44] Harjit Singh Gill: Case, you're the one being more realistic. [00:29:45] Aram Arslanian: Rather than economical or evidence based because. [00:29:50] Harjit Singh Gill: You'Re deciding, I don't want to do item X because I don't believe in it. So there are times where there are things that I believe right and they may or may not bump up against the data or concur with it or go against it. [00:30:01] Aram Arslanian: When I go back to basically the thing I'm offering you might be a more economic option. It actually helps with the solution to. [00:30:09] Harjit Singh Gill: The problem, but you're fine to choose the more moralistic route or when you're rolling your eyes at me, it's actually you're the one who's doing that thing, right? [00:30:15] Aram Arslanian: You're the one going there, whereas I'm. [00:30:17] Harjit Singh Gill: Showing you to what works. And so I kind of bring it. [00:30:19] Aram Arslanian: Back to there always to say the evidence and the solutions are here and. [00:30:25] Harjit Singh Gill: I'd rather not waste time. If you're not interested in doing this way, I don't know that I'm the right person to help you with that because it's not a thing I want to do. [00:30:33] Aram Arslanian: I want to go on something. And certainly because I know especially in your position, it's like you can't really talk like politics. Politics. And I want to be mindful of that. But going back to the beginning of our conversation, again this like media discourse and again, this is not some anti media rant, but just the discourse that's out there. And of course, with elections coming up, things are ramping up. [00:30:52] Aram Arslanian: All the craziness that comes with it, people's lives. [00:30:56] Aram Arslanian: Yeah. [00:30:56] Aram Arslanian: And one thing that I know from living in Vancouver, Monica and I live in Strathcona, which is a part of the downtown East Side and is really like adjacent to the area that has the highest population of unhoused people, people living with addiction, mental health, all those things. [00:31:11] Aram Arslanian: Like all kind of in that area. In our neighborhood, there is homeostasis. [00:31:15] Aram Arslanian: Like, everyone has found a way to live together and be comfortable and be respectful of each other. And people are viewed whether they have a house or a tent. Everyone views each other's neighbors. And I'm not saying it's perfect, but we've kind of found that balance. Like water finds its own level kind of thing. [00:31:31] Aram Arslanian: And when I've been here the past. [00:31:34] Aram Arslanian: Couple of days, it's been this frontline conversation. You've probably heard it on the news. [00:31:39] Aram Arslanian: But the thing that I've been hearing. [00:31:41] Aram Arslanian: From people in San Francisco who live here are like, hey, man, this is our city and our community, and we have neighbors that live in a house. [00:31:48] Aram Arslanian: Or live in a tent, and it's fine, and it's not what the media. [00:31:53] Aram Arslanian: Is making out to be. [00:31:54] Aram Arslanian: And is it a little bit different? Yeah. [00:31:56] Aram Arslanian: But things go in ups and they. [00:31:58] Aram Arslanian: Go in downs, and we're figuring it out. [00:32:02] Aram Arslanian: I think that anyone who lives in a city where there is a heightened challenge around people unhoused populations or people living with addiction and mental health concerns like out just out living in the streets, people will find a way, and they typically find a way. And they want things where not just them, but everyone is going to be okay. [00:32:25] Aram Arslanian: It's really going back to the idea. [00:32:28] Aram Arslanian: Like, these are people's lives. It sucks to see this being this weird talking point on all these media platforms where it's like, all you're doing is talking about the bullshit that creates the eye rolling or the people kind of, like, getting super moralistic and it's. [00:32:41] Aram Arslanian: Taking away from, like, no, there's actual. [00:32:44] Aram Arslanian: Proven things that are happening here. This is what works kind of thing. So with this kind of heightened media attention and this kind of, like, through line that's going along, is that impacting your organization's ability to do the work the same way that you've always are? You facing more pushback, more questions, more intensity? [00:33:03] Harjit Singh Gill: I mean, I wouldn't say there's more pushback. [00:33:05] Aram Arslanian: I think there's awareness and a focus on. [00:33:10] Harjit Singh Gill: What are we doing, how are. [00:33:11] Aram Arslanian: We doing it from the community? [00:33:15] Harjit Singh Gill: I mean, I think from ourselves also, right. [00:33:19] Aram Arslanian: But I think also partially from people who work with us. I think there's a statewide kind of conversation about what have we done for the last ten years or however long. [00:33:32] Harjit Singh Gill: And what's worked and what hasn't worked and where can we invest more? I think there's heightened detention, and I appreciate the heightened detention and focus. [00:33:40] Aram Arslanian: Right. I think it's good that not necessarily. [00:33:43] Harjit Singh Gill: That we sensationalize it, but I think. [00:33:45] Aram Arslanian: Issues that need support do deserve extra attention. [00:33:48] Harjit Singh Gill: We should be talking about them. [00:33:51] Aram Arslanian: The hope is that the dollars and the funding and the support that it doesn't turn into a punishment of systems that have been trying versus versus funding. [00:34:02] Harjit Singh Gill: Those systems that are working and helping kind of help us move these things forward. So, I mean, I think we talked. [00:34:07] Aram Arslanian: Before we started about that homeostasis, right? [00:34:12] Harjit Singh Gill: I'm a runner. I went out for a run. I see folks sometimes sleeping along my running route and just like, how do I be a more mindful person of. [00:34:19] Aram Arslanian: Folks who are sleeping out? Right? I'm out running at 530 in the morning. How do I not be a jerk. [00:34:27] Harjit Singh Gill: When I'm sprinting by like, okay, I have to pick a different route. [00:34:30] Aram Arslanian: Let's be mindful of our unhoused neighbors. [00:34:33] Harjit Singh Gill: But also, it's not normalize. [00:34:34] Aram Arslanian: It's not where people should be in theory. [00:34:38] Harjit Singh Gill: Like, we should be able to find housing for folks in a society. That's what society should be. [00:34:45] Aram Arslanian: And so I push against the urge to make it okay. [00:34:51] Harjit Singh Gill: Personally, this isn't an agency thing, but necessarily, although I think most people agree. [00:34:56] Aram Arslanian: But me at least, I push against the urge to make to say it's totally fine that folks are not well. [00:35:05] Harjit Singh Gill: Out here and sleeping on the streets. [00:35:08] Aram Arslanian: And it's like, well, we should live. [00:35:10] Harjit Singh Gill: In a society that can offer people places to live. That should be a base level of understanding right, for people. Same way we should be able to. [00:35:17] Aram Arslanian: Offer folks medical care and everything and. [00:35:20] Harjit Singh Gill: Everything and the other basic needs that they need. I think those are kind of human ethical standards I think we should be able to live by. And at the same time, it doesn't. [00:35:29] Aram Arslanian: Help people to stigmatize and to sensationalize problems. I think those are not helpful towards a solution. [00:35:39] Aram Arslanian: Every time that I've gone to this space with you about kind of this media thing, you've gone back to what I'd say is just like the most. [00:35:47] Aram Arslanian: Practical application of thinking here, which is, it's not okay that people don't have homes. It's not their fault that they don't have homes. [00:35:57] Aram Arslanian: But as a society, we should be able to provide a situation where everyone who wants a home should have some. [00:36:03] Aram Arslanian: Form of stable, consistent housing. And if people have such concerns, great. [00:36:14] Aram Arslanian: We should be really reflective of our. [00:36:17] Aram Arslanian: System and what we're doing, what's doing well, what's not doing well, and then. [00:36:20] Aram Arslanian: Help us by giving us the money. [00:36:22] Aram Arslanian: And the funding to get to that. [00:36:23] Aram Arslanian: Place where everyone should have a home. [00:36:25] Aram Arslanian: So it's like, I could stamp my. [00:36:27] Aram Arslanian: Feet over here and be like, yo, we have to be doing all these things for people. And then someone else could be like, we're enabling people, but spending too much. [00:36:35] Harjit Singh Gill: Money, and it's not getting us anywhere. [00:36:36] Aram Arslanian: And it's like, totally, hold on. [00:36:37] Harjit Singh Gill: Okay, let's look at the outcomes. Let's look at how much you put and how much you got out of it. [00:36:41] Aram Arslanian: Totally. [00:36:41] Aram Arslanian: But what I love is every time I go to that space, because I have a lot of feelings about it. [00:36:46] Aram Arslanian: Where it's just like I hate seeing. [00:36:47] Aram Arslanian: It on the news in this alarm. And it's not that people shouldn't be alarmed, but it's like, I don't think it's on the news very often from a helpful alarmist space. It's from a sensationalist, society's crumbling kind of thing. [00:37:01] Aram Arslanian: And it's like, hey, man, we have. [00:37:04] Aram Arslanian: A serious problem and it has gotten. [00:37:06] Aram Arslanian: Worse, and let's do something. [00:37:09] Aram Arslanian: And I tend to get in this monica hears me, I'll be stepping my foot like, well, if everyone wants to be so sensational about it, then just give way more money. Do this. Then the other side has got all the discourse about like, well, where's the money going? DA DA DA. Whenever I go to that space, I love how you bring it right back. [00:37:26] Aram Arslanian: To hey, man, I welcome the pressure. [00:37:29] Aram Arslanian: It's just going to help us do better. And nobody's saying that people living without homes is good. In fact, we're all saying it's not a good situation. [00:37:36] Aram Arslanian: So how do we give as many. [00:37:38] Aram Arslanian: People as would, like, a stable, consistent home? How do we give them that while. [00:37:42] Aram Arslanian: Having the best services? [00:37:43] Aram Arslanian: Here's what I'm here to do. Your calmness about this discourse, and I'd say you're actually fending off me, getting a little pumping my fist about it. [00:37:56] Aram Arslanian: That's such strong leadership. [00:37:57] Aram Arslanian: And it's like you're leading me in this conversation because I'm kind of wanting to indulge myself a little bit. [00:38:03] Aram Arslanian: But you're so practical about it. Is that a learned state for you. [00:38:07] Aram Arslanian: Or is that something that has just, like, a natural way for you to. [00:38:10] Harjit Singh Gill: Be I think it's partially evolutionary. I was a longtime activist. I've marched on these very maybe not this street, but many of these streets. [00:38:21] Aram Arslanian: In San Francisco for things. [00:38:23] Harjit Singh Gill: And so I definitely have no problem being pissed and being angry about things. [00:38:30] Aram Arslanian: And letting folks know how I feel. And then at some point, I was like, okay, but when we're talking about a problem or a solution, I'm like. [00:38:40] Harjit Singh Gill: I've always been, like, a person who's. [00:38:42] Aram Arslanian: Like, okay, so how do I actually fix that? [00:38:44] Harjit Singh Gill: What do I actually need to do about that? [00:38:46] Aram Arslanian: What can like, it's like a MacGyver. [00:38:50] Harjit Singh Gill: Problem, okay, I've got, like, a piece of gum and some dental floss, and. [00:38:53] Aram Arslanian: I've got to fix this thing. [00:38:55] Harjit Singh Gill: MacGyver was a television show that most of you probably didn't see who are listening to this podcast, but I think there was a remake a while back. But it's kind of just like a constant problem of, like, what do I do with what I have? And on the flip side, I want. [00:39:09] Aram Arslanian: To say that I think it's okay. I'm a big advocate of pushing for. [00:39:12] Harjit Singh Gill: What you actually need, not just taking what you can get. [00:39:15] Aram Arslanian: So it's like, oh, we only get X dollars. [00:39:18] Harjit Singh Gill: It's like, we have to make it work. [00:39:19] Aram Arslanian: Let's write back. [00:39:20] Harjit Singh Gill: Let's push back and say we need more, actually, to do this. [00:39:23] Aram Arslanian: But I'm always looking for what do I have? [00:39:27] Harjit Singh Gill: I have plenty of feelings about it. [00:39:29] Aram Arslanian: I have anger and frustration at a lot of problems. They're not lost. This isn't a monotone kind of a situation. But then I process those for a moment. I'm like, yeah, this I have tons of feelings. [00:39:46] Harjit Singh Gill: Let me think about that. [00:39:47] Aram Arslanian: And then let me set them here. [00:39:48] Harjit Singh Gill: For a second, get into my box about what do I actually come up with to do this? [00:39:54] Aram Arslanian: And then it's like, hey, now I. [00:39:55] Harjit Singh Gill: Can go back to talking about how much I hate this thing or how. [00:39:57] Aram Arslanian: Much this pisses me off or how angry I get. [00:39:59] Harjit Singh Gill: But it's like I'm always coming back to an operational kind of thing. [00:40:04] Aram Arslanian: What can I do? [00:40:05] Aram Arslanian: I just love it, though. [00:40:06] Aram Arslanian: Because I keep trying to pull up a soapbox and be like, hop on the soapbox with me. And you're like, no, not getting on that. Let's be practical. [00:40:13] Aram Arslanian: All right, but let's go into actually so we've talked a lot about the. [00:40:18] Aram Arslanian: Organization, the work you do, kind of the challenges that you're trying to address. Being in the helping profession is wonderful, incredible. It fills up your cup every day. [00:40:26] Aram Arslanian: It's tough. [00:40:28] Aram Arslanian: What are you seeing out in the field in terms of how people are. [00:40:32] Aram Arslanian: Responding to our modern situation, our current situation? [00:40:37] Aram Arslanian: So a few things. One, on our website, et cetera, we. [00:40:41] Harjit Singh Gill: Try to pay folks a livable wage because we don't want them to have second jobs and third jobs to make. [00:40:45] Aram Arslanian: Ends meet, because these jobs are hard enough, right? So let's make it as possible for. [00:40:50] Harjit Singh Gill: Folks to live off this one work and then take their time for themselves. [00:40:54] Aram Arslanian: I'm a big advocate for staff taking their PTO. I push folks and I'm like, if you're on PTO, in fact, just by. [00:41:05] Harjit Singh Gill: Chance, like, on Wednesday nights, I've got. [00:41:06] Aram Arslanian: To be at this soccer practice for my son. [00:41:08] Harjit Singh Gill: There's an example, right? [00:41:09] Aram Arslanian: And so I sit at a position. [00:41:12] Harjit Singh Gill: Where I'm in charge of the region. I've got an associate director. And then if there's a bunch of man, there's a layer of managers who. [00:41:17] Aram Arslanian: Are great and a layer of supervisors below them. [00:41:20] Harjit Singh Gill: So that grouping of people has a team's thread. [00:41:26] Aram Arslanian: I realized this Wednesday evening was going. [00:41:27] Harjit Singh Gill: To be a great time for me because I was going to be there from five to seven every week to. [00:41:30] Aram Arslanian: Just blast emails, just like, I'm going. [00:41:32] Harjit Singh Gill: To be at my son's soccer practice. I'm going to write like 100 emails every Wednesday and get them all cleared out and walk away. [00:41:38] Aram Arslanian: And I realized that people might feel the pressure to respond, so I wrote a long thread to them all saying, like, you're going to start getting these. [00:41:45] Harjit Singh Gill: My expectation is that you don't even. [00:41:46] Aram Arslanian: Read them, that you don't look at them, because if one of you does, then all of you are going to feel the need to do this. [00:41:51] Harjit Singh Gill: And then you're working till 07:00 P.m., and you're not supposed to. [00:41:54] Aram Arslanian: I'm just doing this. [00:41:55] Harjit Singh Gill: Let's try to work on this together, right? [00:41:57] Aram Arslanian: And I think that's two of our. [00:41:58] Harjit Singh Gill: Staff, I could try to push the. [00:42:00] Aram Arslanian: Same thing, which is when you're gone, you're gone. When you need support, we're here. [00:42:05] Harjit Singh Gill: I tell people a lot of times. [00:42:06] Aram Arslanian: There are layers to support you that. [00:42:09] Harjit Singh Gill: If you'll reach out to them. [00:42:10] Aram Arslanian: So if you're a case manager, a. [00:42:12] Harjit Singh Gill: Care, what we call a coordinator on. [00:42:14] Aram Arslanian: The field, you definitely have a supervisor. [00:42:17] Harjit Singh Gill: That supervisor has a manager. The manager has an associate director. The associate has me. [00:42:20] Aram Arslanian: I have the chief of programs, chief. [00:42:23] Harjit Singh Gill: Has the CEO, the Executive director, CEO. You're not responsible for anything. [00:42:30] Aram Arslanian: You feel like you can't answer yourself and so if you ever feel like you don't know what to do, you. [00:42:35] Harjit Singh Gill: Can call one person and you can call another. If you can't get hold of your supervisor, there's a bunch of supervisors who. [00:42:40] Aram Arslanian: Will just talk to you. Like, there's a number of them in the building. So just talk to somebody and say, I'm stuck. [00:42:46] Harjit Singh Gill: You never have to feel like you. [00:42:47] Aram Arslanian: Don'T know what to do. [00:42:49] Harjit Singh Gill: You always have the ability to reach out. [00:42:51] Aram Arslanian: And I think pushing that to everybody to say it's okay to ask for help, it's okay to not know what to do. [00:42:57] Harjit Singh Gill: Your responsibility in that moment is actually. [00:42:59] Aram Arslanian: To find one of us. [00:43:01] Harjit Singh Gill: You can just grab me and I mean, people will grab me walking by. [00:43:03] Aram Arslanian: Like, hey, I can't find anybody. I'm like, well, what's up? [00:43:05] Harjit Singh Gill: Talk to me about it, like, what's going on? And they'll walk me through what the situation is. [00:43:09] Aram Arslanian: I'm like, so here's what I think we should do. [00:43:11] Harjit Singh Gill: Let me grab your actual supervisor in case there's anything that I'm not aware of that affects that and let me pull them in to make sure that I'm not missing something that's bigger that you are all already working on. And then let's come up with a. [00:43:23] Aram Arslanian: Plan together and then I'm going to leave you with it, right? [00:43:28] Harjit Singh Gill: That's not a thing I have to do often enough or often. [00:43:31] Aram Arslanian: But folks see me walking by and. [00:43:35] Harjit Singh Gill: I'm always like, everything good. [00:43:36] Aram Arslanian: How are you all doing? I'm like, if I see anybody who's. [00:43:39] Harjit Singh Gill: Looking stuck or puzzled, I'm like, what's up? [00:43:41] Aram Arslanian: And they're like, I can't do I'm like, Jasha supervisor? Not yet. [00:43:44] Harjit Singh Gill: I'm like, well, you want me to. [00:43:45] Aram Arslanian: Grab them for you? You don't have to feel stuck. You've got support. And I think taking that off people's. [00:43:51] Harjit Singh Gill: Plates is a big part of creating. [00:43:52] Aram Arslanian: A sustainable place for them to be in this world of the helping world. Like, they can choose to work in a place that's not as emotionally draining. [00:44:03] Harjit Singh Gill: For probably similar wages, et cetera. So they choose to do this work. [00:44:07] Aram Arslanian: So how do we honor people's time. [00:44:10] Harjit Singh Gill: And energy they're putting into the work and giving them the ability to feel. [00:44:13] Aram Arslanian: Like they're doing the best they can do and that they're supported the best they can be. [00:44:17] Aram Arslanian: You said two things that I want to touch on. One was living wage and the other. [00:44:22] Aram Arslanian: Is you didn't name it, but kind of talking around burnout. [00:44:26] Aram Arslanian: But let's go to living wage first. As an industry like the helping profession. [00:44:30] Aram Arslanian: Has historically in most places in North America, inclusive of Canada, been getting a living wage is difficult and it is a job that has a huge amount of emotional labor. [00:44:46] Aram Arslanian: And I hope people hear this as a I don't believe that people who are in this field are doing it for reasons where they're like, they think they're superheroes. They're doing it because they're compelled to help other people. And it's got major emotional labor involved. You take home a ton of your work unless you're a certain kind of. [00:45:03] Aram Arslanian: Person who doesn't do that. So it's got all those challenges where. [00:45:09] Aram Arslanian: People have to be at their best, they have to be thoughtful in their conversations, they have to be mindful, they have to really be with people. [00:45:14] Aram Arslanian: And also because of the nature of. [00:45:16] Aram Arslanian: How many of these positions get paid, they also have a whole different level of stress about like how do I feed myself, my family, how do I stay home. In fact, I was just reading an article recently about the amount of people who work in the industry that end up themselves living in unstable housing, losing apartments, ending up living in cars while. [00:45:35] Aram Arslanian: They themselves becoming homeless, while working with unhoused populations. So what can you unpack for us. [00:45:42] Aram Arslanian: Around that, around the needs of this industry for having fair wages? [00:45:46] Aram Arslanian: Yeah, I mean, I think we call. [00:45:49] Harjit Singh Gill: It a livable wage. We focus on trying to make sure. [00:45:53] Aram Arslanian: That we can find a wage that. [00:45:55] Harjit Singh Gill: Allows someone to just work this one job right. That you should be able to survive on this work that you're doing here because it has meaning. [00:46:04] Aram Arslanian: You and I both came up in. [00:46:06] Harjit Singh Gill: This industry and some of the wages are brutal. [00:46:10] Aram Arslanian: They're just not. And I think that's a thing, a. [00:46:13] Harjit Singh Gill: Point of pride for me is to. [00:46:14] Aram Arslanian: Be able to offer folks wages that. [00:46:17] Harjit Singh Gill: They often will look and be like, are you really? [00:46:20] Aram Arslanian: It's like, yes, this is the number. [00:46:23] Harjit Singh Gill: And I feel really great about getting. [00:46:25] Aram Arslanian: To do that with folks. Some of that is in how we. [00:46:30] Harjit Singh Gill: There'S a bunch of back end stuff. [00:46:32] Aram Arslanian: About how we set ourselves up to do that. [00:46:36] Harjit Singh Gill: But I think it's important to honor. [00:46:38] Aram Arslanian: The work and the workers that are. [00:46:40] Harjit Singh Gill: Doing the folks that are doing the work. [00:46:41] Aram Arslanian: I think the other thing is that when you look at the cost of turnover crazy. [00:46:48] Aram Arslanian: It's so intense. [00:46:49] Harjit Singh Gill: It's like you lose three months of productivity, I think for every person you leave. I think that's the last thing I read. [00:46:55] Aram Arslanian: It's like, okay, you're losing three months worth of money. [00:46:57] Harjit Singh Gill: You're paying the new person anyways. You have the lost productivity of the. [00:47:00] Aram Arslanian: Stress of when that person leaves. Their 30 clients have to go, consumers have to go somewhere. [00:47:07] Harjit Singh Gill: So everybody's covering and their stress levels are up. [00:47:09] Aram Arslanian: It's like, how do we make this. [00:47:11] Harjit Singh Gill: More sustainable, right, this work? [00:47:13] Aram Arslanian: And I think also we have to keep pushing for the funding to match. [00:47:16] Harjit Singh Gill: What we actually need to be doing. [00:47:17] Aram Arslanian: So it's not over, it's not like a solution. But I think it's a place that. [00:47:26] Harjit Singh Gill: I'm more comfortable with the way we set our scale. [00:47:29] Aram Arslanian: Yeah. [00:47:30] Aram Arslanian: So around the finances though, it's an interesting thing for me to talk about. [00:47:38] Aram Arslanian: Because there's such a difference between the not for profit world and the for profit world. [00:47:43] Aram Arslanian: So I'm going to use language that. [00:47:44] Aram Arslanian: You may be different from here, but in BC, when I refer to someone like a frontline worker, especially in housing. [00:47:50] Aram Arslanian: It could be someone who would be. [00:47:52] Aram Arslanian: Maybe walking through the downtown east Side, walking through alleys, interacting with people who are unhoused and trying to find them housing by the end of the day. Or it could be someone working at a set of apartments who are just there to help people, connect them to services, make sure things are running smooth. It could be a variety of services. [00:48:09] Aram Arslanian: That are all really complex and have a ton of emotional labor, but don't. [00:48:14] Aram Arslanian: Necessarily require a high level of education in, let's say, maybe a bachelor's degree, but not necessarily not a master's degree. [00:48:23] Aram Arslanian: And also like some people who maybe didn't even complete high school. [00:48:26] Aram Arslanian: I think that's a good thing. In fact, I think there are a. [00:48:28] Aram Arslanian: Lot of people who are highly skilled. [00:48:30] Aram Arslanian: At helping or who could become highly skilled at helping, who maybe don't have. [00:48:34] Aram Arslanian: A formal education but are like unbelievably. [00:48:37] Aram Arslanian: Skilled and education shouldn't be a barrier at that level. I'd even go so far as to say is that I think there are a lot of people who could be great counselors and therapists who maybe don't have a master's degree, but who could be incredible in that space. If they were just given access to appropriate training, that maybe they don't have the time or space or ability to go and do a university degree. [00:49:00] Aram Arslanian: So when I think of all the. [00:49:03] Aram Arslanian: People who have worked in a frontline. [00:49:05] Aram Arslanian: Space or people who are able to. [00:49:08] Aram Arslanian: Work at different levels without formal education. [00:49:12] Aram Arslanian: I've seen that often be a reason. [00:49:14] Aram Arslanian: Why people don't get paid as much money. Sure, like you don't have a bachelor's, you don't have a master's. It's like, yeah, but they're doing important work. They're doing super important, highly skilled work. [00:49:25] Aram Arslanian: That'S like really, really tough. [00:49:27] Aram Arslanian: In fact, if I think of the people that I know who are walking through alleys in the downtown East Side, like, connecting with unhoused populations and really trying to or at least connect them. [00:49:36] Aram Arslanian: With services that's like some of the most important human work that you could do that is highly skilled, you should. [00:49:43] Aram Arslanian: Get paid really, really well for that. [00:49:45] Aram Arslanian: That is a job that most people don't want and there's a skill to it. [00:49:52] Harjit Singh Gill: There's an ability to be able to connect to people that has to be there. You have to be a certain kind of person. [00:49:56] Aram Arslanian: So yeah, definitely. I think we see that. [00:50:01] Harjit Singh Gill: And our scaling tries to note that we use similar language here. [00:50:07] Aram Arslanian: Like folks who are either doing case. [00:50:11] Harjit Singh Gill: Have traditionally called case management, right, or. [00:50:16] Aram Arslanian: Do support work for drop in centers, et cetera. We try to make sure that they. [00:50:23] Harjit Singh Gill: All start at the same place and have the support they need to do that work. And we recognize that for what it. [00:50:28] Aram Arslanian: Is I think it's an industry. [00:50:32] Harjit Singh Gill: It's an industry that has a lot of problems. [00:50:34] Aram Arslanian: Also, there's critiques that were published long. [00:50:38] Harjit Singh Gill: Ago of the unpaid internship for even grad school, right. Oh, you're soaking up. But I mean, there's pros and cons to that. [00:50:45] Aram Arslanian: So I'm not here to necessarily start. [00:50:48] Harjit Singh Gill: A fight in the papers of the. [00:50:49] Aram Arslanian: Journals, but I think there's a lot. [00:50:57] Harjit Singh Gill: There around folks who especially with lived experience, who've come in, who've been historically. [00:51:01] Aram Arslanian: Underpaid for the work that they've done. So giving them a different title, using. [00:51:07] Harjit Singh Gill: Their previous experience as maybe a consumer of behavioral health services or having been. [00:51:11] Aram Arslanian: Formerly homeless, but then saying, well, they're technically unskilled. [00:51:15] Harjit Singh Gill: It's like, well, no, they actually probably have more expert they have more expertise. [00:51:17] Aram Arslanian: Than you and I do. Totally. They've been through this, so shouldn't we. [00:51:20] Harjit Singh Gill: Lean on them more? [00:51:21] Aram Arslanian: Right, well, sorry to interrupt, but the contrast I want to make is, like, in the for profit world, it's like. [00:51:27] Aram Arslanian: You expect people to have a level of education, and they get paid for that level of education. [00:51:32] Aram Arslanian: Right. So when you see when someone has a master's or a PhD, it's like. [00:51:37] Aram Arslanian: If you're in the for profit world. [00:51:38] Aram Arslanian: That'S like, oh, okay, we're going to. [00:51:39] Aram Arslanian: Move them to a different scale. [00:51:42] Aram Arslanian: In the not for profit world, it's. [00:51:45] Aram Arslanian: Almost like applying the same thinking to it's like, oh, you have a master's degree. Well, we'll go to the space, but. [00:51:51] Aram Arslanian: It'S like, well, what if someone doesn't. [00:51:52] Aram Arslanian: Have a master's degree, but they have. [00:51:53] Aram Arslanian: Lived experience and they have, let's say. [00:51:58] Aram Arslanian: Not just their lived experience, but they've had specific training that would enable them to do work. Why wouldn't they be able why would. [00:52:05] Aram Arslanian: We apply working for the for profit. [00:52:08] Aram Arslanian: Or the logic for the for profit. [00:52:09] Aram Arslanian: World to the not for profit world. [00:52:11] Aram Arslanian: That has all of these nuances? And I'm not asking you to answer for the system. [00:52:15] Harjit Singh Gill: No, I agree. [00:52:16] Aram Arslanian: I think that those scales need a lot of rewriting. [00:52:21] Harjit Singh Gill: We need to actually be analyzing what is the work that you're doing and. [00:52:24] Aram Arslanian: How should we and what's fair to. [00:52:26] Harjit Singh Gill: The kind of work you do. [00:52:28] Aram Arslanian: Right. How do we make sure that we. [00:52:33] Harjit Singh Gill: To me, it's always just about making sure people feel taken care of, right? How do we make sure that you. [00:52:37] Aram Arslanian: Are able to feel good about the. [00:52:39] Harjit Singh Gill: Work you do here? [00:52:40] Aram Arslanian: Feel like you're being fairly compensated, feel. [00:52:42] Harjit Singh Gill: Like there's not a differentiation between you. [00:52:47] Aram Arslanian: Another peer, another staff member, especially among within those groupings that feels like it's. [00:52:55] Harjit Singh Gill: Based on anything other than experience and. [00:52:58] Aram Arslanian: Quality of your work. Right, but it's true. It's like if you're a teacher and you have a master's, you get more. [00:53:07] Harjit Singh Gill: Than a teacher who doesn't have masters. There's a rationale to that. Right. [00:53:10] Aram Arslanian: The extra training. But you're both going to be teaching in a classroom in a similar setting here. [00:53:17] Harjit Singh Gill: It's like, well, that person walking through the downtown East. [00:53:21] Aram Arslanian: Side is doing something very specific that has a very specific skill set, which is valuable. Like, you and I can't just go. [00:53:28] Harjit Singh Gill: And do that work today. I mean, we could do it, but it probably wouldn't be done as well, and it might have the impact it does. [00:53:33] Aram Arslanian: So that person is kind of a specialized staff person. So how do we make sure we pay them or at least take care? [00:53:43] Harjit Singh Gill: How do we make sure we recognize them? You want to say pay, but it's like, how do we recognize them for. [00:53:47] Aram Arslanian: What they are rather than calling people, like, unskilled? Totally. [00:53:50] Aram Arslanian: And that unskilled thing is such a it's so interesting to me because I think practically, most people would say, well, to be in the helping profession, you. [00:53:58] Aram Arslanian: Should have some kind of background. [00:54:01] Aram Arslanian: Yeah, some kind of background and some. [00:54:03] Aram Arslanian: Kind of skill with it. [00:54:04] Aram Arslanian: I think that's a reasonable thing to expect, especially with the delicacy of the work and how crucial it is to really be able to be with people. [00:54:13] Aram Arslanian: And properly support them. [00:54:16] Aram Arslanian: On the flip side, I think the things of, like, let's say what people might call skilled, right? Like people with master's degrees or PhDs. It's like I'm sure in your life and I'm not asking you to comment on this you've probably met a lot of people who have advanced degrees where. [00:54:29] Aram Arslanian: You'Re like, oh, yeah. [00:54:33] Harjit Singh Gill: I've met plenty. [00:54:34] Aram Arslanian: Of people who have. [00:54:37] Harjit Singh Gill: No. [00:54:38] Aram Arslanian: Degree who I would want taking care. [00:54:41] Harjit Singh Gill: Of my loved one more than I would want this other person who has. [00:54:45] Aram Arslanian: A doctorate or whatever. Right? [00:54:46] Harjit Singh Gill: Like, we know these things to be. [00:54:47] Aram Arslanian: True because there's something to the to the person behind it and their empathy. [00:54:53] Harjit Singh Gill: And their compassion and their way of. [00:54:55] Aram Arslanian: Being that probably you don't get that. [00:54:59] Harjit Singh Gill: Necessarily from just having gone to school. It's part of it's who you are. [00:55:03] Aram Arslanian: So it's 100% true that I've certainly and we've all met clinicians or doctors. [00:55:11] Harjit Singh Gill: That you've gone to a doctor's office, you're like, I never want to see that person again. Right. [00:55:16] Aram Arslanian: And that's totally understandable. Right? There was a neurologist I once saw with my dad, and, you know, my. [00:55:26] Harjit Singh Gill: Dad was diagnosed with Alzheimer's a while back and then passed away a few years ago. [00:55:31] Aram Arslanian: But the first neurology appointment I ever went to with him, I had this list of questions I'd come with, like. [00:55:37] Harjit Singh Gill: Because they tell you it's like, hey, for the doctor because they're going to be busy. Make sure you have your questions before you get in. So I had them listed out. I was ready to go. We finished the visit, and I started asking my questions. He's like, okay, we're out of time. [00:55:47] Aram Arslanian: I was like, no, we have four. [00:55:49] Harjit Singh Gill: More minutes, and I just want to get through these kind of emailed him to you. [00:55:51] Aram Arslanian: And he said he held his hand up, and he said, your dad has Alzheimer's. [00:55:55] Harjit Singh Gill: You need to get over it. [00:55:56] Aram Arslanian: Or no, you need to get used to it. [00:55:57] Harjit Singh Gill: Sorry. [00:55:57] Aram Arslanian: So you need to get used to it. And I was like, this is the. [00:56:01] Harjit Singh Gill: Last time I will ever see you in my life. I looked at him and just said, like, this is the last time we will ever see you again. [00:56:06] Aram Arslanian: Did you say that? [00:56:06] Harjit Singh Gill: Yeah, I said it to him out loud right there. [00:56:08] Aram Arslanian: And my mom looked at me like. [00:56:10] Harjit Singh Gill: Did you just make an executive decision for the family? I was like, this guy can't take care of dad. [00:56:14] Aram Arslanian: And how did he funk? [00:56:15] Harjit Singh Gill: He just looked at me like he was shocked that I would speak to him that way. [00:56:18] Aram Arslanian: And then he walked out, and I. [00:56:19] Harjit Singh Gill: Went and found a better neurologist with. [00:56:21] Aram Arslanian: A better bedside manner who understood, who was kind, who really worked with my dad and was kind of part of his neurology team up until the last. [00:56:32] Harjit Singh Gill: Few years of his life when he transferred to another care team. [00:56:35] Aram Arslanian: But it was just like, the ability. [00:56:38] Harjit Singh Gill: To advocate for myself and my family. [00:56:39] Aram Arslanian: Is not something that everyone feels like. [00:56:41] Harjit Singh Gill: A lot of the folks who come in through don't feel like they can say that to you, right? [00:56:44] Aram Arslanian: They don't feel like they can say, hey, that clinician was actually a jerk. [00:56:47] Harjit Singh Gill: I want to file a grievance, right? Or I want to file a complaint. So we try to make sure that people know they can do that. [00:56:53] Aram Arslanian: But I know that I felt empowered, given my experience, my position in the. [00:56:58] Harjit Singh Gill: World, the relative privilege I have. The guy who's in grad school has a clinical degree to be like, whoa. [00:57:03] Aram Arslanian: That'S not how you talk that's not. [00:57:05] Harjit Singh Gill: How you talk to me. [00:57:05] Aram Arslanian: That's not how you talk to my dad. [00:57:08] Harjit Singh Gill: We all deserve a level of respect here. [00:57:10] Aram Arslanian: Well, to go to that, not just. [00:57:14] Aram Arslanian: In this field, but I feel like the idea of education of course, of course, education can matter and it can be helpful. [00:57:22] Aram Arslanian: But I think that I, firmly in. [00:57:24] Aram Arslanian: My heart of hearts, believe that there are so many unbelievably talented, wise people that could be working in all sorts of industries and making a massive difference. [00:57:33] Aram Arslanian: With degree or no degree. And if I think of creating services. [00:57:38] Aram Arslanian: That are low to zero barrier, I. [00:57:40] Aram Arslanian: Think that entry into areas where people. [00:57:44] Aram Arslanian: Can be in the helping industry and get paid a fair wage should have low to zero barrier. [00:57:49] Aram Arslanian: It doesn't mean that there's, like, we're. [00:57:51] Aram Arslanian: Just going to hire anyone who walks in off the street. Of course there'd be normal hiring practices. [00:57:55] Aram Arslanian: I do believe fully that most people. [00:57:58] Aram Arslanian: Can help in many ways, and then if you kind of go up the scale of complexity, that's where you look for different things. But even then, that doesn't necessarily mean formal education. I really believe, like, a reworking of how we approach problems means that we have to have a reworking of how we like of what kind of barriers. [00:58:16] Aram Arslanian: We have to who gets to be involved. [00:58:18] Aram Arslanian: Yeah, I'll give you an example. Previously, I worked in a site where we oversaw a program in a previous role that was the 24 hours behavioral. [00:58:31] Harjit Singh Gill: Health kind of crisis line for accounting. And it was an access line, so you could just call and say, I. [00:58:35] Aram Arslanian: Need to want to set an appointment up, or whatever. [00:58:37] Harjit Singh Gill: But it could also serve as kind. [00:58:38] Aram Arslanian: Of the bridge to a cris. And. [00:58:43] Harjit Singh Gill: It was a manager of the program. It's great. [00:58:46] Aram Arslanian: And he know, can we think outside. [00:58:48] Harjit Singh Gill: The box a bit about who we hire? And I said, well, what are you thinking? [00:58:50] Aram Arslanian: He said, Why don't we go down. [00:58:52] Harjit Singh Gill: To the Starbucks that's by the state. [00:58:54] Aram Arslanian: Capitol and just recruit all the baristas? [00:58:57] Harjit Singh Gill: He's like, because they're dealing with congresspeople. [00:58:59] Aram Arslanian: And their aides and a mass order. [00:59:02] Harjit Singh Gill: From the governor's office or whatever, and. [00:59:04] Aram Arslanian: They'Re just handling it. And who could handle an angry or. [00:59:08] Harjit Singh Gill: An upset phone call better than the. [00:59:10] Aram Arslanian: Baristas that are down there, that are able to still keep a customer service. [00:59:16] Harjit Singh Gill: Face, keep a bright outlook, while dealing with like, oh, this is supposed to. [00:59:21] Aram Arslanian: Be non fat, not low fat or whatever. [00:59:23] Harjit Singh Gill: Right. [00:59:23] Aram Arslanian: And I was like, that is a. [00:59:24] Harjit Singh Gill: Great outlook into how we could recruit different kinds of people into this work. [00:59:29] Aram Arslanian: And create new access pathways because pulling. [00:59:32] Harjit Singh Gill: Folks from the service industry or kind of all over the place to find a way. [00:59:36] Aram Arslanian: And so one of the things I think is interesting is looking at the skills we've learned from the people get. [00:59:44] Harjit Singh Gill: From other places they can apply to the work they do. [00:59:46] Aram Arslanian: Yeah, it's hilarious that I worked at Starbucks when I was in college and I've been yelled at by many upscale. [00:59:54] Aram Arslanian: People because it was a Starbucks in like a chapters in a nice part of Vancouver. And I can't even tell you the amount of times I had people yelling. [01:00:00] Aram Arslanian: And screaming at me. And some part of me was like. [01:00:06] Aram Arslanian: This is just coffee, you need to relax. But also being able to manage that certainly played into my career at some point. [01:00:14] Aram Arslanian: Yeah, all right, but let's go over. [01:00:15] Aram Arslanian: To the burnout side. [01:00:17] Aram Arslanian: As we know, in all industries, burnout. [01:00:19] Aram Arslanian: Of course, is an issue, or I'd say most industries. [01:00:22] Aram Arslanian: And during the pandemic burnout, which is. [01:00:25] Aram Arslanian: Something that of course most professionals have. [01:00:28] Aram Arslanian: Some interaction with in their life, people. [01:00:31] Aram Arslanian: Were seeing historic amounts of or industries were seeing a historic amount of people experiencing burnout, and not just mild burnout, but moderate burnout, or even severe burnout. If we go to the helping industry, typically there's a lot of burnout, or people experience a lot of burnout because there's such an amount of emotional labor. The work can be really intense. Some people have had to work two, three jobs to be able to do. [01:00:52] Aram Arslanian: It as a leader, how do you help your organization, stay healthy. [01:00:59] Aram Arslanian: And one thing I push is, like I said earlier, use your PTO. [01:01:03] Harjit Singh Gill: I was like, we give you days. [01:01:04] Aram Arslanian: Off when you're not here. [01:01:05] Harjit Singh Gill: I don't expect an email from you. I don't expect you to pick up your phone. [01:01:09] Aram Arslanian: I don't expect you to respond. [01:01:11] Harjit Singh Gill: I don't want you to think about work. Okay, this is actually your time. [01:01:14] Aram Arslanian: This is your time to not be here. [01:01:16] Harjit Singh Gill: I try to model it. So, for example, I was on vacation. [01:01:19] Aram Arslanian: Last week for a whole week. I told everybody on Monday morning I'm available through Sunday. Like, if you need something Monday morning when I start driving, I'm going to log out of teams. [01:01:29] Harjit Singh Gill: When I get there, I'm going to log out of email. [01:01:31] Aram Arslanian: I think that's the order at that point. [01:01:34] Harjit Singh Gill: The only way you'll be able to get hold of me is by calling. [01:01:36] Aram Arslanian: My actual phone number. So if you need me for an. [01:01:38] Harjit Singh Gill: Emergency, if something serious happens, I do. [01:01:40] Aram Arslanian: Want to know about it because I'm responsible for it. But I'm purposefully going to take myself. [01:01:46] Harjit Singh Gill: Off most of these comms for a. [01:01:48] Aram Arslanian: Week so that I'm not responsive. [01:01:51] Harjit Singh Gill: So I can kind of work to show you. [01:01:52] Aram Arslanian: This is what being on PTO, so many folks in our industry historically have felt like their PTO is their I'm. [01:02:00] Harjit Singh Gill: Kind of still here time, right? [01:02:02] Aram Arslanian: Like, I'm on PTO, but I'm not really on PTO. [01:02:05] Harjit Singh Gill: But if you need to get a hold of me, call this number and. [01:02:07] Aram Arslanian: I do that too. [01:02:10] Harjit Singh Gill: It's not perfect. [01:02:11] Aram Arslanian: I'll tell people I'm going to be. [01:02:14] Harjit Singh Gill: Off, but if you need to get. [01:02:15] Aram Arslanian: Hold of me, you can call, whatever. [01:02:17] Harjit Singh Gill: But really trying to model that for folks is one thing, right? [01:02:19] Aram Arslanian: To say, I'm not going to be here, and I'm really not going to be here. [01:02:24] Harjit Singh Gill: And I want you to not be. [01:02:25] Aram Arslanian: Here when you're not here. [01:02:26] Harjit Singh Gill: And I want you to tell the. [01:02:27] Aram Arslanian: Staff they're not here when they're not here. [01:02:30] Harjit Singh Gill: And then another thing is just like noticing when people write an email. [01:02:33] Aram Arslanian: Like, oh, you wrote a bunch of emails at 08:00 P.m., all well. [01:02:38] Harjit Singh Gill: And then some of that's flex. [01:02:39] Aram Arslanian: I tell people part of managing burnout. [01:02:42] Harjit Singh Gill: Is to create a workplace people want to be in. [01:02:45] Aram Arslanian: So I tell people this goes a. [01:02:47] Harjit Singh Gill: Bit into my own life and how I got to this work. [01:02:50] Aram Arslanian: But if your kid has a soccer practice, I don't want you to miss it. So I want you to go to the practice. And so if you need to leave a half hour early and we can make it work, it's not going to. [01:03:01] Harjit Singh Gill: Be every single time. [01:03:02] Aram Arslanian: If we can make it work, go to soccer practice. And this is for leadership specifically. And then if you want to respond. [01:03:08] Harjit Singh Gill: To emails for a half hour later. [01:03:11] Aram Arslanian: To make it up, that's fine. [01:03:13] Harjit Singh Gill: You can flex that. I want to make sure that you. [01:03:14] Aram Arslanian: Feel like you're not missing out on your life to be at work and that your work isn't your life. [01:03:19] Harjit Singh Gill: Right. And that's important to me. [01:03:20] Aram Arslanian: It's important to setting a culture that's. [01:03:23] Harjit Singh Gill: Supportive of staff and that keeps people wanting to work. Right. [01:03:26] Aram Arslanian: I try not to miss anything for that same reason I'm like, I'm going to be here. You can get a hold of me. [01:03:31] Harjit Singh Gill: And then they might see some work. [01:03:32] Aram Arslanian: Later, and they may not they may be that it balances out over the. [01:03:36] Harjit Singh Gill: Course of the week. [01:03:37] Aram Arslanian: Right. But to make sure people know that when you're coming on board to work. [01:03:44] Harjit Singh Gill: For me and work for us as. [01:03:45] Aram Arslanian: An agency, we believe in that truly. [01:03:48] Aram Arslanian: What about when taking time off or flex time is not enough? [01:03:57] Harjit Singh Gill: Like, a lot of systems here we. [01:03:59] Aram Arslanian: Have EAP, which is like an employee assistance program. We also provide staff, just support. [01:04:05] Harjit Singh Gill: What's going on? Do you need some help? Do you need some unpaid time? [01:04:08] Aram Arslanian: What can we do? What do you want to share with us? [01:04:15] Harjit Singh Gill: Because, I mean, ultimately you run into. [01:04:16] Aram Arslanian: A situation where I might be a therapist, but I'm not my staff's therapist. Right. I'm their boss. And so I have to set a. [01:04:23] Harjit Singh Gill: Firm boundary there to say, like, I can offer a certain degree of support and then I need you to access. [01:04:27] Aram Arslanian: The resources that we actually have for you that are appropriate to that because. [01:04:32] Harjit Singh Gill: There'S a boundary issue here about how. [01:04:35] Aram Arslanian: Much we dive into. [01:04:37] Harjit Singh Gill: I'm here to talk, like, if you're just like, I'm having a hard time or this workload or my mom is sick and it's been a lot of stress and that's fine, but if you. [01:04:46] Aram Arslanian: Need to dive in, this isn't the. [01:04:48] Harjit Singh Gill: Space to do it. Right. [01:04:49] Aram Arslanian: That would kind of cross to me some of the lines that I'd like. [01:04:53] Harjit Singh Gill: To set with our relationship. [01:04:54] Aram Arslanian: But we have resources that are internal and that are by us, but that are confidential, that you can work with. [01:05:02] Harjit Singh Gill: Around that and push that to the staff. [01:05:04] Aram Arslanian: I occasionally will just resend that information. [01:05:07] Harjit Singh Gill: Out or we do it annually just. [01:05:09] Aram Arslanian: To say, reminder, everybody, you have these resources to you. [01:05:12] Harjit Singh Gill: Right. This is available. [01:05:14] Aram Arslanian: And I think that's helpful to staff. [01:05:17] Harjit Singh Gill: Just to normalize and kind of create. [01:05:19] Aram Arslanian: A culture of, like, it's okay, use the stuff. It's there for you. Yeah. [01:05:23] Aram Arslanian: You're touching on something, though, and I. [01:05:26] Aram Arslanian: Appreciate your caution with how you're speaking about it. I'm going to voice something, though, that no matter what your job is, self care is your responsibility. And where I believe employers need to. [01:05:41] Aram Arslanian: Do the work is employers need to. [01:05:43] Aram Arslanian: Create a healthy workplace, strong culture, strong and healthy, accessible resources. [01:05:50] Aram Arslanian: Create situations where people can flex. You help people make sure they take their time off. [01:05:55] Aram Arslanian: You create that space, let's say an. [01:05:59] Aram Arslanian: Industry outside of the working of the helping industry. I always tell people, I'm like, hey, you're not your team's therapist. And these people are actually literally not therapists. And then in the helping industry, it's. [01:06:12] Aram Arslanian: Like, you're all therapists, but you're not your team's therapist. [01:06:15] Aram Arslanian: There is an amount of accountability no matter what your industry is, but especially. [01:06:19] Aram Arslanian: If it's the helping industry of self care. [01:06:22] Aram Arslanian: And it's just the same, like, taking care of your diet. And when I say diet, I don't. [01:06:26] Aram Arslanian: Mean, like, we're not talking about, like. [01:06:27] Aram Arslanian: Body image, but just eating. Yeah. [01:06:30] Aram Arslanian: Fueling yourself properly, paying your bills, physically. [01:06:35] Aram Arslanian: Taking care of yourself, mentally taking care of yourself. [01:06:37] Aram Arslanian: Self care is your responsibility and the. [01:06:41] Aram Arslanian: Responsibility of you and your partner, or if you have a partner or don't. [01:06:44] Aram Arslanian: Have a partner, or your family. And I think it's really important for. [01:06:49] Aram Arslanian: Employers, no matter what your industry is, is to make sure you've got your. [01:06:52] Aram Arslanian: Side of the street set up, but you got to be met by the side, by the people that you're leading. [01:06:57] Aram Arslanian: Well, because I can't tell you how. [01:07:01] Harjit Singh Gill: You want to take care of yourself totally. Right. I can't prescribe you the right way to do something. [01:07:06] Aram Arslanian: If everyone followed the Harjit plan, it. [01:07:08] Harjit Singh Gill: Would be like, all right, so we're. [01:07:09] Aram Arslanian: Going to meet up at 530 at the track, and we're going to run. [01:07:15] Harjit Singh Gill: A two mile warm up, and then we're going to do seven times 200 by 200. That's a 200 meters sprint and a 200 meters recovery. [01:07:21] Aram Arslanian: And people would look and be like. [01:07:22] Harjit Singh Gill: 530 in the morning? [01:07:24] Aram Arslanian: No, I'm not coming. [01:07:25] Harjit Singh Gill: Right? And so it's like, oh, why are. [01:07:27] Aram Arslanian: You punishing yeah, why are you making me run laps? [01:07:30] Harjit Singh Gill: It's like a high school thing, right? Why do I have to run laps? What did I do wrong? That's not their version of it, right? [01:07:35] Aram Arslanian: They might do something totally different, but. [01:07:37] Harjit Singh Gill: To me, it's that or it's swinging a kettlebell or hanging out with my kids or whatever. Right. [01:07:44] Aram Arslanian: So it's like, if you gotta I. [01:07:45] Harjit Singh Gill: Can'T tell you what's going to work for you. You have to figure that out for you. But like you said, right, I can take care of this side, which is, like, want to create opportunities, make sure you have the time off, make sure. [01:07:55] Aram Arslanian: You have the ability to do these things, and then it's for you to. [01:08:03] Harjit Singh Gill: Figure out what that is. It might be camping, it could be hiking. [01:08:07] Aram Arslanian: Whatever it is, that's yours. Right? [01:08:10] Aram Arslanian: The reason I'm bringing this up is. [01:08:14] Aram Arslanian: Most leaders want to be good leaders. [01:08:17] Aram Arslanian: And they want to help people, and they want people on their teams to feel good and enjoy their work. [01:08:21] Aram Arslanian: And that work could be, like, helping. [01:08:24] Aram Arslanian: People, and it could be making paper bags. [01:08:27] Aram Arslanian: I want people to feel good about working here and feel taken care of. [01:08:31] Aram Arslanian: But if people want to do good. [01:08:33] Aram Arslanian: Work, if they want to do great. [01:08:34] Aram Arslanian: Work, if they want to do something that is meaningful either to them or to the world, or even just make. [01:08:39] Aram Arslanian: A good living wage. It starts with your responsibility to take care of yourself. [01:08:43] Aram Arslanian: And I think this is like one. [01:08:45] Aram Arslanian: Of the most important conversations that I think the work world needs to have. [01:08:51] Aram Arslanian: Because there's always a lot of kind of like, conversation of like, what can we do for culture and this and that. It's like, yeah, we can do all these things. If someone's not taking their time off, we cannot literally make them take time off. If someone is not minding their diet or they can't sleep at night and they're not taking the steps to help them to figure out what's going on for them and to address that, we can't make them do that. And that doesn't make someone a bad employer. [01:09:17] Aram Arslanian: It doesn't make the industry a bad industry. It's that we can only take care. [01:09:21] Aram Arslanian: Of what we can take care of and then create the situations where the tools are there if people want to pick them up. [01:09:29] Aram Arslanian: Self care? I think not think no in my. [01:09:32] Aram Arslanian: Heart is the most important thing to people being able to be productive and happy. [01:09:36] Aram Arslanian: And self care does matter, but employers. [01:09:39] Aram Arslanian: Are only responsible for one side of that street. [01:09:41] Aram Arslanian: We're creating the conditions for it. [01:09:43] Aram Arslanian: Totally, man, totally. [01:09:45] Aram Arslanian: To me it's just like anytime someone. [01:09:47] Harjit Singh Gill: I'm always like, do you want to come at five? We can run laps. And it's like, no. It's like, okay, well then I will authorize the PTO. [01:09:55] Aram Arslanian: Totally. [01:09:56] Harjit Singh Gill: You do your thing, right? [01:09:57] Aram Arslanian: And I don't know what that is. [01:09:59] Harjit Singh Gill: And you don't have to know what that is because I don't need to know what that is. [01:10:02] Aram Arslanian: Right. The same way that I know people. [01:10:05] Harjit Singh Gill: Go out, et cetera, and they don't invite the bosses, that's fine, do your thing. I'm happy that you're doing what you need to do for yourself. My thing is this, and it doesn't have to be your thing. [01:10:16] Aram Arslanian: My thing is that plus eating at. [01:10:18] Harjit Singh Gill: Vegan restaurants and trying non alcoholic cocktails, because that's what I'm enjoying these days, as a way of taking care of myself. [01:10:26] Aram Arslanian: And that's great. That's all fun. [01:10:29] Aram Arslanian: So let's talk about you though, since you mentioned the Harjit way, and I chuckle a bit because we've known each other for so long and of course we've seen each other evolve and grow. [01:10:43] Aram Arslanian: In my mind you're still like I. [01:10:45] Aram Arslanian: Think we met like we were both in our early twenty s. I think. [01:10:47] Aram Arslanian: I remember the moment we met if. [01:10:49] Harjit Singh Gill: You'Ll grant me this. [01:10:50] Aram Arslanian: Kyle Whitlow's house and conquered champion embrace the end tour Embrace today embrace today. [01:10:57] Harjit Singh Gill: Sorry, embrace today embrace the End is. [01:10:59] Aram Arslanian: Pat, who you had on a previous. [01:11:01] Aram Arslanian: Podcast band shout out to Pat, one of my all time favorite interviews. [01:11:05] Aram Arslanian: So embrace today champion. [01:11:08] Harjit Singh Gill: I came down with Tyler Shannon, who'd recently moved back from the Northwest, and. [01:11:11] Aram Arslanian: We crashed at Kyle's house. And my hair was probably chin length. [01:11:15] Harjit Singh Gill: Awkward at that house, but that was the first time I actually ever talked to you. [01:11:20] Aram Arslanian: And we hit it off right away. We became buddies right away. [01:11:23] Aram Arslanian: I will agree with that. [01:11:25] Harjit Singh Gill: Yeah, I think that's true. [01:11:28] Aram Arslanian: Shout out to Kyle Whitlow. That guy created such a special thing that changed so many people's lives with the record label. [01:11:37] Aram Arslanian: And Zach, who also helped him start. [01:11:39] Aram Arslanian: The record label, but wasn't always a part of it. [01:11:42] Aram Arslanian: Shout out to him, man, because I. [01:11:44] Aram Arslanian: Think of Rivalry Records, and I don't. [01:11:48] Aram Arslanian: Know how remembered it is, but what. [01:11:50] Aram Arslanian: A special label and special time. [01:11:52] Harjit Singh Gill: Those dudes are from my hometown. They went to high school two years ahead of me. [01:11:57] Aram Arslanian: So that set the stage. [01:11:58] Harjit Singh Gill: I think. Zach's the one who got me into. [01:12:00] Aram Arslanian: Straight Edge, and so that's like those. [01:12:03] Harjit Singh Gill: I don't keep in touch with them. [01:12:05] Aram Arslanian: Very much, but, I mean, they're always in my heart because I'm, like that. [01:12:09] Harjit Singh Gill: Got me on this path that I've been on since then. [01:12:11] Aram Arslanian: Yeah. [01:12:12] Aram Arslanian: Both great guys. I was thinking this is a sidebar, but I was thinking about Rivalry Records. [01:12:17] Aram Arslanian: Obviously, here in the Bay Area, and. [01:12:22] Aram Arslanian: There are these just pockets of time where people do these things that at. [01:12:26] Aram Arslanian: The moment, it's not like you're thinking. [01:12:28] Aram Arslanian: About forever, but it seems like a forever thing. [01:12:31] Aram Arslanian: Right. [01:12:31] Aram Arslanian: It's like you look at a wall, you're not thinking that wall is going to be torn down someday. It's just a wall. [01:12:35] Aram Arslanian: Right. [01:12:35] Aram Arslanian: I think of Rivalry Records and what. [01:12:38] Aram Arslanian: Kyle, Zach, to a degree, and then Kyle later on continued to do it was huge, man. [01:12:43] Aram Arslanian: It was groundbreaking. [01:12:45] Aram Arslanian: I mean, groundbreaking might be too big, but it felt monumental to me. [01:12:50] Harjit Singh Gill: Well, and I've never said this to Kyle, so if it doesn't end up. [01:12:53] Aram Arslanian: On the pod, we can send him the snippet. The fact to us that Kyle and. [01:13:00] Harjit Singh Gill: Zach are from the same town of I think it's 28,000 people or something as me in Northern California, rural California was this huge badge of pride to myself. And a few other friends who were. [01:13:12] Aram Arslanian: From there were like, we get to rep this. [01:13:15] Harjit Singh Gill: This is from our tiny, unknown backwater town. These guys started this awesome thing and. [01:13:21] Aram Arslanian: Put out these great bands. [01:13:23] Harjit Singh Gill: And so it was amazing to me. [01:13:26] Aram Arslanian: To be on the periphery of just to be proud of kind of a local product. Totally. [01:13:31] Aram Arslanian: And there's two things I learned from. [01:13:34] Aram Arslanian: Kyle, specifically, that I've applied to my life. [01:13:38] Aram Arslanian: One was Kyle ran ravelry, like an actual business. [01:13:42] Aram Arslanian: Sure. [01:13:42] Aram Arslanian: And I remember and I've told him this, there were points where I remember. [01:13:46] Aram Arslanian: Feeling like, a little like, who is this? Why is he being all I was young, right? [01:13:52] Aram Arslanian: Yeah. [01:13:53] Aram Arslanian: Actually, let me just say this, because. [01:13:54] Aram Arslanian: I don't think young people necessarily think this. My thinking at the time was a bit juvenile, where I was like, oh. [01:14:01] Aram Arslanian: It'S like not punk to run it like this, but it's like the dude. [01:14:04] Aram Arslanian: Had spreadsheets and had royalty statements and. [01:14:08] Aram Arslanian: Stuff, and you would have contracts, and it'd be like, I was used to handshakes stuff. But of course, as I got older, I'm like, oh, that was the smartest fucking thing. Like, that guy was so ahead of the game because it's like he ran a very well a well oiled machine. [01:14:26] Aram Arslanian: That was an actual business that treated everybody super fair. He was just adult enough to do that. [01:14:31] Aram Arslanian: And he's younger than me. [01:14:33] Harjit Singh Gill: Yeah, I think he was a valedictorian. [01:14:37] Aram Arslanian: Of his high school was. [01:14:39] Harjit Singh Gill: I remember watching him give his speech. [01:14:41] Aram Arslanian: So it's mean that guy know he. [01:14:48] Harjit Singh Gill: Was two years ahead of me or three years ahead of me. [01:14:49] Aram Arslanian: And so it was just Tyler was. [01:14:51] Harjit Singh Gill: Three years and Kyle was two years ahead of us. [01:14:53] Aram Arslanian: But they were special dudes on campus. And so shout out to those guys. [01:14:59] Aram Arslanian: Well, just the idea that it's like. [01:15:01] Aram Arslanian: No matter what you're doing, you should run it well, thoughtfully. So that's the first thing I learned from Kyle. [01:15:06] Aram Arslanian: But when he shut down Rivalry and was like, yeah, the label's done. [01:15:11] Aram Arslanian: At that point, I was such a. [01:15:12] Aram Arslanian: Believer, and I really like, Kyle's just. [01:15:17] Aram Arslanian: Such a smart guy and has gone on to do other great things, but it's like where he's like, yeah, I. [01:15:22] Aram Arslanian: Just don't want to do it anymore. And again, at the time, I was kind of, whoa. [01:15:26] Aram Arslanian: I almost felt like, can you do that? Just, like, shut something down? [01:15:31] Aram Arslanian: And he shut it down. And it's the graceful wrap up. [01:15:36] Aram Arslanian: You choose your own ending. You wrap it up when you want. And I've applied that to things that I've done. I applied it to my own record label that I did later on. But I have applied it to things. [01:15:44] Aram Arslanian: Where it's, you know, just because you're. [01:15:47] Aram Arslanian: Doing something doesn't mean you have to. [01:15:49] Aram Arslanian: Do it forever, especially if you don't. [01:15:51] Aram Arslanian: Want to do it anymore. [01:15:52] Aram Arslanian: And that graceful. [01:15:53] Aram Arslanian: Picking your own exit and just being really thoughtful about it was so cool. [01:15:57] Aram Arslanian: So shout out to Kyle. [01:15:58] Aram Arslanian: I just think he's such a great guy and Rivalry Records is such a cool label. [01:16:02] Aram Arslanian: Totally. Yeah. [01:16:04] Harjit Singh Gill: It's always in my heart as, like. [01:16:05] Aram Arslanian: An interesting, awesome moment, and I appreciate the same thing, the example to set, like, it's okay to walk away from. [01:16:12] Harjit Singh Gill: This whenever you want. [01:16:13] Aram Arslanian: It's like, oh, I can come and go as I need. I'm not bound to being here forever. [01:16:20] Harjit Singh Gill: If I don't want to be right now. [01:16:21] Aram Arslanian: So I know. [01:16:22] Aram Arslanian: I was like, let's talk about you. And then I instantly started talking about someone else. [01:16:27] Aram Arslanian: All right, so you came up in punk and hardcore. [01:16:30] Harjit Singh Gill: Yes. What straight edge at 18, vegetarian at 18, vegan at 19. So I just turned 40. So a long time, most of my life now came off in punk and hardcore, like I said, in rural Northern California. I was born actually in the Bay Area, but moved up there when I was nine because my dad's work and. [01:16:53] Aram Arslanian: Got into I mean, I think I. [01:16:55] Harjit Singh Gill: Didn'T grow up with American music because my parents had just gotten here, so. [01:16:58] Aram Arslanian: It was very, like, you know, regret. It was very kind of, you know. [01:17:05] Harjit Singh Gill: It was not standard that anybody in my family, like, picked up a guitar, and so I bought a guitar. I wasn't allowed to play it upstairs. [01:17:11] Aram Arslanian: In the house, had to play it in the garage. We just sit down there and learn. [01:17:15] Harjit Singh Gill: From lessons and then teaching myself how. [01:17:16] Aram Arslanian: To play guitar poorly still to this. [01:17:19] Harjit Singh Gill: Day, but learning how to play an instrument. [01:17:22] Aram Arslanian: And then, yeah, I just got into punk and hardcore, and I think the lessons from that have just been the lessons I learned from punk, hardcore, and. [01:17:32] Harjit Singh Gill: Activism have just been, like, a huge part. I think they're an underappreciated part of. [01:17:36] Aram Arslanian: How I learned the skills I did for my career. Right. And I think it's interesting, like, if. [01:17:43] Harjit Singh Gill: You'Re booking or working with a friend, you know this from booking a tour. [01:17:46] Aram Arslanian: You'Re booking your tour, that's scheduling, that's budgeting. [01:17:51] Harjit Singh Gill: There's a lot of skills that you inherently learn by doing that, right? [01:17:54] Aram Arslanian: And for me, it's like, oh, we're having a meeting to plan a protest. [01:17:58] Harjit Singh Gill: Against the Iraq War. [01:17:59] Aram Arslanian: Okay, well, how much money does the association have on campus? [01:18:03] Harjit Singh Gill: Can we rent a bus? [01:18:04] Aram Arslanian: Can we not rent a bus? How much are the signs going to cost? [01:18:07] Harjit Singh Gill: Like, the budgeting that goes into that, right? The organizing people, the consensus building, like, oh, these people disagree. How do we get to some commonality? [01:18:15] Aram Arslanian: And so there's a therapist who used. [01:18:17] Harjit Singh Gill: To have an office just down the. [01:18:18] Aram Arslanian: Street from here and passed away a few years ago. One thing he told me when I was all the people who kind of. [01:18:25] Harjit Singh Gill: Are from the subcultures that I see. [01:18:27] Aram Arslanian: Who want to be clinicians and therapists. [01:18:29] Harjit Singh Gill: And they really want to go out there and they really want to help. [01:18:31] Aram Arslanian: People, they come in here and he wasn't mocking. He was just like, they come in. [01:18:37] Harjit Singh Gill: And they get these jobs. And within, like, six months, somebody realizes they have all these skills that most. [01:18:42] Aram Arslanian: People in the building don't have. [01:18:44] Harjit Singh Gill: They're like, oh, I can take care of the scheduling, or in a meeting, they end up facilitating, and within like, a year, they're a supervisor. [01:18:50] Aram Arslanian: And a few years later, because what you've learned are kind of leadership management skills. [01:18:56] Harjit Singh Gill: Some are leadership, some are some overlap, right? But the skill set just kind of. [01:18:59] Aram Arslanian: Exists in the back of your brain. [01:19:02] Harjit Singh Gill: From just, like, the life you've lived, and so you came with that. [01:19:07] Aram Arslanian: I have that kind of, I think, all the time about, like, oh, the first time, I just volunteered to organize. [01:19:14] Harjit Singh Gill: The staff meeting and set the agenda and all that. Where did that come from? Like, oh, from years of doing that on campus for political groups or. Whatever did I learn about conflict resolution? It's like, oh, by hanging out with a bunch of punks and figuring out. [01:19:29] Aram Arslanian: How to, you know, just how to. [01:19:31] Harjit Singh Gill: Make peace about arguments. [01:19:32] Aram Arslanian: Right. I think there's that's just a part of my life that I really value. [01:19:37] Harjit Singh Gill: And I'm less involved in punk and hardcore at this point in my life with my kids, et cetera, but I. [01:19:42] Aram Arslanian: Feel like I have some association with, and I'll never lose that because it's in my soul. [01:19:48] Aram Arslanian: Yeah. I remember the first time I held. [01:19:53] Aram Arslanian: A minor threat seven inch, and the COVID had come unglued at the side, and someone had written Flex your head just in there. [01:20:00] Aram Arslanian: And I was like, oh, this wasn't manufactured by someone. Some kids just made these. And then, of course, the whole story. [01:20:08] Aram Arslanian: They figured out how to do that. [01:20:13] Aram Arslanian: Punk and hardcore set me up to live to live life, practically. That idea that you could almost just. [01:20:22] Aram Arslanian: Do anything yourself and make something cool about it, and maybe it won't be appreciated by thousands of people, but it. [01:20:27] Aram Arslanian: Could certainly be appreciated by, like, ten people or twelve people or 30 people. That was, like, life changing for me. I have applied almost everything I learned. [01:20:36] Aram Arslanian: From punk, both the good and the. [01:20:37] Aram Arslanian: Bad, to my marriage. [01:20:42] Aram Arslanian: The way I am in the community, the way I've built a business, the. [01:20:45] Aram Arslanian: Way I've done my career, the way. [01:20:47] Aram Arslanian: I interact with myself, and kind of. [01:20:48] Aram Arslanian: Like, work on my own problems. It is one of the most vital scenes. It can also be stying, though, where it can almost feel a little claustrophobic. [01:21:03] Aram Arslanian: Yeah, I mean, that's where we were. [01:21:05] Harjit Singh Gill: Talking about being able to come in. [01:21:07] Aram Arslanian: And out of it as you need. [01:21:10] Harjit Singh Gill: I feel like there have been moments. [01:21:11] Aram Arslanian: Where it's like, okay, I'm a grad student, I'm a social worker. [01:21:18] Harjit Singh Gill: I have these other things I'm doing. [01:21:19] Aram Arslanian: This isn't my whole life the way. [01:21:21] Harjit Singh Gill: It was when I was younger. [01:21:22] Aram Arslanian: This is a part of my life, and right now I don't have time. [01:21:24] Harjit Singh Gill: For this part of my life. [01:21:25] Aram Arslanian: And that's okay. [01:21:27] Harjit Singh Gill: I'll be back. [01:21:28] Aram Arslanian: If something interests me, or if I. [01:21:29] Harjit Singh Gill: Want to come to a show or. [01:21:30] Aram Arslanian: Do something, I'll be back here. [01:21:33] Harjit Singh Gill: And I will not know your songs. [01:21:35] Aram Arslanian: But I'll certainly sing along to the. [01:21:38] Harjit Singh Gill: COVID that you do of a band I love, like Chain of Strength. I'll definitely be here for that part. [01:21:43] Aram Arslanian: But otherwise I think it's okay to. [01:21:45] Harjit Singh Gill: Come in and out. But the lesson from it right, isn't lost. [01:21:49] Aram Arslanian: What it gave you and what it. [01:21:51] Harjit Singh Gill: Gave me isn't going anywhere. Right? It's there. [01:21:53] Aram Arslanian: And so I've rejected and pushed back against the kind of not conservative in. [01:22:01] Harjit Singh Gill: A political sense, but just in the. [01:22:04] Aram Arslanian: Closed kind of net of it, right? [01:22:06] Harjit Singh Gill: Just like, this is what this community is. [01:22:10] Aram Arslanian: There's support in there. There's culture there. There's art and music and friends and community. And also that can get tighter and. [01:22:19] Harjit Singh Gill: Tighter and may need to step out of that for other interests you take on. Right. [01:22:24] Aram Arslanian: And I think it's cool when you find people from that community doing other things you love. Like, you and I both are followers of this. [01:22:33] Harjit Singh Gill: It's just a strava group, but the Straight Edge Run Club is a lot of fun for me. I'm like, oh, other people who are Straight Edge who run A, like, this. [01:22:39] Aram Arslanian: Is just nice to know that exists. [01:22:41] Harjit Singh Gill: Doesn't mean we're going to go to a show and have a meet up or whatever, but just nice to know that exists. [01:22:45] Aram Arslanian: Right. [01:22:45] Harjit Singh Gill: Or when you see somebody from the. [01:22:47] Aram Arslanian: Same world out from our world, in. [01:22:51] Harjit Singh Gill: The real world, and you're like, I'm. [01:22:54] Aram Arslanian: Like, I see you. I see you. [01:22:56] Harjit Singh Gill: I saw that tattoo. I see the X on that. When you lifted your arm up, I was like, I saw it just for a second, but I saw that tattoo. Cool. [01:23:03] Aram Arslanian: I'll catch up with you later. [01:23:04] Harjit Singh Gill: Totally. [01:23:05] Aram Arslanian: But I think it's cool to see that feed into other people's lives and them bringing that. [01:23:11] Harjit Singh Gill: I also think the styming is also like, DIY can be styming sometimes because then you don't ask for what you actually need. So it's like, oh, I can do this with like $8 and a box of glue. [01:23:19] Aram Arslanian: It's like, no, you need $4,000. You need $4,000, a startup, plus this. [01:23:26] Harjit Singh Gill: Plus this, plus a clinician, plus like, no, don't try to do this on the cheap. Push for what you actually need. I think it's a little of both. [01:23:34] Aram Arslanian: I feel like sometimes my DIYness can be inhibitor. If I have a check for it, I'm like, wait, am I being cheap? Don't be cheap. [01:23:43] Harjit Singh Gill: Think about what you actually need to get this done. [01:23:45] Aram Arslanian: Totally. [01:23:47] Aram Arslanian: So I'll add to that because that's a great addition. [01:23:50] Aram Arslanian: But I'd say the thing that I'd say from a career space that I had to learn is like, oh, people outside punk and hardcore can be very. [01:24:00] Aram Arslanian: Knowledgeable and know how to do a lot of cool things. [01:24:02] Aram Arslanian: And I would say early career, I. [01:24:06] Aram Arslanian: Treated my job as like, I'm going to go in and do this good job, and I've got this kind of, like, special way of doing it because I'm a punk. Like, almost this chip on my shoulder. [01:24:14] Aram Arslanian: Sure. [01:24:14] Aram Arslanian: Which I think any healthy punk should have. Like, yeah, you don't have a chip on your shoulder a little bit. [01:24:18] Harjit Singh Gill: You're bringing this. [01:24:19] Aram Arslanian: Yeah, totally. [01:24:20] Aram Arslanian: But also something that I really came. [01:24:22] Aram Arslanian: To appreciate is how rich of a. [01:24:27] Aram Arslanian: World it is and how there are so many people who've literally never heard of Chain of Strength or whatever that could run circles around me as a professional. [01:24:35] Aram Arslanian: And to some people that might seem. [01:24:38] Aram Arslanian: Rudimentary, even like people growing up in the punk scene, but there can be this styming. [01:24:42] Aram Arslanian: Like, we're outsiders and we've got it. [01:24:45] Aram Arslanian: Figured out and we don't need anyone. [01:24:46] Aram Arslanian: Else where it's like I don't necessarily. [01:24:48] Aram Arslanian: Need everyone else, but damn, I want access. I want to be a part of that. [01:24:52] Aram Arslanian: Yeah, I want to know the best. [01:24:53] Harjit Singh Gill: Way to do something. [01:24:53] Aram Arslanian: Yes. [01:24:55] Harjit Singh Gill: I don't want to know the best way that we've come up with. I want to know the actual best way. It's like tell me the best way. [01:25:00] Aram Arslanian: To do this thing. And if it comes from what we know as a community, whether it's from punk or from the running community or. [01:25:08] Harjit Singh Gill: Whatever, the best way of doing something is the one that I'm interested in and the most fun. [01:25:12] Aram Arslanian: If it's a recreational thing, give me. [01:25:15] Harjit Singh Gill: The best and give me the most. [01:25:16] Aram Arslanian: Fun and then I'll just kind of. [01:25:17] Harjit Singh Gill: Figure out how I want to do this. [01:25:18] Aram Arslanian: Right. The one that speaks to me, but. [01:25:21] Harjit Singh Gill: Totally, it'll be like, well, we have an answer to this solution. [01:25:23] Aram Arslanian: Like, well, no, this solution is actually cooler, better, we should try it out. [01:25:28] Harjit Singh Gill: I think it's a better idea. [01:25:29] Aram Arslanian: And it's like it gets a bit of pushback. [01:25:31] Harjit Singh Gill: Right. And that's part of what I feel like I need to step away from. [01:25:38] Aram Arslanian: Sometimes it's like, oh no, I've learned. [01:25:40] Harjit Singh Gill: Other ways of doing some of these. [01:25:41] Aram Arslanian: Things that don't require me to adhere. [01:25:45] Harjit Singh Gill: Something that I don't believe in anymore. And so that allows me to step away from this for a minute. [01:25:50] Aram Arslanian: Right. [01:25:53] Harjit Singh Gill: Then that's great, it's fine. And then if I come back to it and people are interested, I can talk to them about what I'm thinking about. [01:25:58] Aram Arslanian: So growing up kind of Northern California out there a little bit with a. [01:26:04] Aram Arslanian: Family who were first generation generation immigrants. [01:26:07] Aram Arslanian: And so I grew up in the. [01:26:09] Aram Arslanian: Same way I was in Alberta. My parents were both immigrants and so I was the first generation that was born in Canada. Even my sister hadn't been born in Canada. The experience I was having as a young person growing up in North America was radically different to what they'd experienced. [01:26:23] Aram Arslanian: Totally. [01:26:23] Aram Arslanian: And it caused a lot of drift on her home. Especially when I got into punk and hardcore. What was it like for mean? [01:26:30] Harjit Singh Gill: I'm laughing because my mom still talks. [01:26:33] Aram Arslanian: About this all the time. Like how much of a headache I cause. [01:26:36] Harjit Singh Gill: I'm like, well it was a headache. [01:26:38] Aram Arslanian: Because you chose to make partial part. I'm like own your part of this. It was a headache because there was. [01:26:45] Harjit Singh Gill: An unnecessary barrier set. [01:26:47] Aram Arslanian: I'm going to a friend's house to listen to records. [01:26:51] Harjit Singh Gill: I will be by back. His parents are here. [01:26:53] Aram Arslanian: No, it's like why are we causing. [01:26:55] Harjit Singh Gill: Unnecessary like putting up an unnecessary barrier. [01:26:58] Aram Arslanian: Right. [01:26:58] Harjit Singh Gill: Because then as a punk I'm going to rebel against it and now we're going to have a fight about it. Right. [01:27:02] Aram Arslanian: So it means similar. [01:27:05] Harjit Singh Gill: I think my parents would have loved. [01:27:06] Aram Arslanian: If I came home, did my homework, helped at the house and sat and. [01:27:11] Harjit Singh Gill: Looked at the wall for the 3 hours till bedtime. [01:27:14] Aram Arslanian: But it's like, same thing. And occasionally I would just say you moved to California. So if you wanted me to act. [01:27:20] Harjit Singh Gill: Like I was living in a village that you were raised in, you should have raised me in the village that you came from. But you moved me to Northern California. [01:27:28] Aram Arslanian: And I have MTV and I have. [01:27:30] Harjit Singh Gill: A record store about a half hour. [01:27:32] Aram Arslanian: Away and there's a college 45 minutes. [01:27:34] Harjit Singh Gill: Away that has all kinds of stuff and there's books and art and music. [01:27:38] Aram Arslanian: And different kinds of people even in this relatively insular, predominantly white, smaller town. [01:27:44] Harjit Singh Gill: But they're just different people. And it's interesting. [01:27:46] Aram Arslanian: And I'm a curious person. [01:27:48] Harjit Singh Gill: I'm going to go explore all this. [01:27:49] Aram Arslanian: And then it was just chaos and. [01:27:51] Harjit Singh Gill: Conflict for years and then some homeostasis later, right? [01:27:55] Aram Arslanian: And I think it's just that's the. [01:27:59] Harjit Singh Gill: Natural flow of these things. [01:28:00] Aram Arslanian: And it's like my brother and sister. [01:28:01] Harjit Singh Gill: And I talk about this a lot. [01:28:03] Aram Arslanian: You really broke a bunch of things. [01:28:05] Harjit Singh Gill: Down and just said no and did what you wanted. And so then when we came up with like, can I go to the movies? It was like, yeah, sure. [01:28:11] Aram Arslanian: It's like, yeah, fine. [01:28:12] Harjit Singh Gill: Whatever. I give up. Our stuff became a lot easier because. [01:28:16] Aram Arslanian: You just were willing to be the battering ram. [01:28:19] Harjit Singh Gill: I was like, yeah, was my role. [01:28:20] Aram Arslanian: Right? [01:28:20] Harjit Singh Gill: As the oldest, I'll be the battering ram. [01:28:23] Aram Arslanian: I will go to a show and. [01:28:25] Harjit Singh Gill: Get back at 02:00 a.m. So that you can go to a movie till 09:00 p.m.. I will push the barrier for you. [01:28:30] Aram Arslanian: Took the hits, man. [01:28:31] Harjit Singh Gill: Yeah, I took the hits and it was like, it was fine. And it was funny because by the. [01:28:34] Aram Arslanian: End of it, my mom now knows. [01:28:38] Harjit Singh Gill: All these straight edge people who come to her, like vegans who've showed up at her house. [01:28:41] Aram Arslanian: She always has vegan Punjabi food, right? [01:28:43] Harjit Singh Gill: She's super cool with everybody. [01:28:45] Aram Arslanian: And I was like, used to hate. [01:28:48] Harjit Singh Gill: Everybody I hung out with. And she's like, well, it just took time to understand. She's like, you got to understand. It was hard for us. [01:28:56] Aram Arslanian: We just got here. [01:28:58] Harjit Singh Gill: We were like used to everyone looking and behaving a certain way and being from a certain community. [01:29:03] Aram Arslanian: And we have family who are all. [01:29:04] Harjit Singh Gill: In the Bay Area and they're all super tight knit. And we moved 4 hours away. [01:29:08] Aram Arslanian: We had nobody up here. [01:29:09] Harjit Singh Gill: So for us it was like, what's going to happen? Something bad's going to happen? [01:29:13] Aram Arslanian: Because he's not hanging out with people from our community. And really I was like, I was just being a normal, boring, generic high school kid, right? [01:29:22] Harjit Singh Gill: It's just like that's just acculturation. [01:29:24] Aram Arslanian: That's just life. [01:29:28] Harjit Singh Gill: If we get into all the HBSC, kind of like the human behavior in the social environment, like timeline stuff from. [01:29:33] Aram Arslanian: Grad school, it's like this is just. [01:29:34] Harjit Singh Gill: Generic high school movie. But in my instance it was punk and then later, straight Edge punk and Straight Edge hardcore. [01:29:43] Aram Arslanian: But by the end, it was know, gosh. [01:29:46] Harjit Singh Gill: When my parents were living in Washington. [01:29:49] Aram Arslanian: For that few years up there, there. [01:29:51] Harjit Singh Gill: Was a time where I caught a ride with the dudes from Requiem, which is the post catharsis band. [01:29:55] Aram Arslanian: So this is crust. [01:29:56] Harjit Singh Gill: And they were dropping me off at. [01:29:59] Aram Arslanian: The Bellingham Food Co op. And I was like, mom, I'm here. [01:30:03] Harjit Singh Gill: If you want to pick me. She's like, oh, just invite them over. I was like, these people haven't showered in weeks. [01:30:07] Aram Arslanian: You sure you? She's like, yeah, that's fine. And I was like, they left. [01:30:11] Harjit Singh Gill: Don't worry about it. [01:30:11] Aram Arslanian: I was like, but in what world. [01:30:13] Harjit Singh Gill: Are you suddenly okay with Cross pumps who haven't showered? And God knows but this is that. [01:30:23] Aram Arslanian: Crowd of folks who are way more crust punk. [01:30:26] Harjit Singh Gill: And I was like, this is not. [01:30:27] Aram Arslanian: Your usual cup of tea for people. [01:30:30] Aram Arslanian: Listening who don't know what crust punk is. We're not even going to go. [01:30:32] Harjit Singh Gill: We're not going to that. [01:30:33] Aram Arslanian: Google that. [01:30:34] Harjit Singh Gill: Yeah, Brian might reject the label of crust punk, which is fine, but there's a lot there. And it still comes up. It still comes up in conversation. [01:30:47] Aram Arslanian: I think there is residual trauma for her around that. [01:30:52] Harjit Singh Gill: Like, she'll bring it up to my wife. [01:30:53] Aram Arslanian: My wife will just say, like, man. [01:30:56] Harjit Singh Gill: My wife was amazing and beautiful and wonderful. Will just be like, man, that car. [01:30:59] Aram Arslanian: Ride of your mom, she's still processing some of the stuff that you all went through together. And I'm like, it doesn't come up to me, right? [01:31:09] Harjit Singh Gill: And we don't have these moments. Break it down. [01:31:11] Aram Arslanian: But I think it was important to. [01:31:13] Harjit Singh Gill: Individuate and be who I wanted to. [01:31:14] Aram Arslanian: Be. [01:31:17] Aram Arslanian: With that, though, because you had. [01:31:19] Aram Arslanian: Mentioned your dad, he had developed Alzheimer's and then had passed away. [01:31:25] Aram Arslanian: And as you know, and as we've. [01:31:27] Aram Arslanian: Talked about, my dad lives with dementia. [01:31:32] Aram Arslanian: Coming up in this. [01:31:36] Aram Arslanian: Screw you, dad, I'm a punk. And also, I know our experiences were a bit different, but my father was home a lot because my mom was the breadwinner. But my mom was out working and there's a bunch of challenges that were involved with that. My mom did all the working. We were in a recession. My dad was the homekeeper. And I spent a lot of time with my dad. [01:32:00] Aram Arslanian: But my dad was a real typical. [01:32:02] Aram Arslanian: Armenian kind of guy. He was very closed off emotionally. [01:32:06] Aram Arslanian: Lovely guy, like really giving, but he. [01:32:09] Aram Arslanian: Didn'T talk a lot. [01:32:10] Aram Arslanian: I was always around my dad, but. [01:32:12] Aram Arslanian: He was there for every game and everything. [01:32:14] Aram Arslanian: But we didn't have some deep father son thing, right? [01:32:19] Aram Arslanian: And then getting into punk and hardcore, the last thing you want to do is be with your parents. And really when I started becoming aware. [01:32:27] Aram Arslanian: Of. [01:32:29] Aram Arslanian: Kind of life and death and. [01:32:31] Aram Arslanian: All those things and you kind of become a little bit more aware of. [01:32:34] Aram Arslanian: The finite nature of things. [01:32:38] Aram Arslanian: I don't want to say it was. [01:32:39] Aram Arslanian: Too late, but I think I just. [01:32:42] Aram Arslanian: Never got the chance to really have. [01:32:46] Aram Arslanian: I'd say, a bit of a deeper. [01:32:48] Aram Arslanian: Relationship with my dad. Now my mom lives with me, and so I have maybe too deep of each other's grills constantly, but. [01:33:02] Aram Arslanian: There'S days where I'm like, fuck, man, I did so much stuff. [01:33:06] Aram Arslanian: I got to travel over the world with punk. [01:33:08] Aram Arslanian: I got to do all these things. But. [01:33:12] Aram Arslanian: Growing up the. [01:33:16] Aram Arslanian: First generation immigrants and going your own way, I just feel like, man, maybe it would have. [01:33:24] Aram Arslanian: Been cool to grow up in that. [01:33:25] Aram Arslanian: Little village and to have that time. [01:33:28] Aram Arslanian: And have that kind of relationship. [01:33:30] Aram Arslanian: I think about that. [01:33:32] Harjit Singh Gill: My dad was kind of the opposite. My mom was home until I was in high school. [01:33:37] Aram Arslanian: Then she went to work, but my dad was gone. [01:33:39] Harjit Singh Gill: He was a machinist, and so he was gone 12 hours a lot of times. [01:33:44] Aram Arslanian: He missed tons of games, tons of, you know, he missed a lot and. [01:33:51] Harjit Singh Gill: Similar, like, you know, not a lot of feeling, not a lot of emotion for a long time. [01:33:56] Aram Arslanian: And I think it's been tough, especially. [01:34:00] Harjit Singh Gill: And then it was like, I moved away, went to college, lost years where it's know, moved to grad school, moved to the Bay Area, 4 hours away, and then they moved to Washington. There's all these things that life happens, right? And life happened in the middle there. [01:34:11] Aram Arslanian: And then there was a diagnosis, and then it was like, well, shit, what do we do now, right? What do we do about the finality. [01:34:20] Harjit Singh Gill: Of the time we have left now that we know this thing is happening? How do we maximize our time? [01:34:25] Aram Arslanian: And when I talk about stepping away from certain aspects of my life, really, this was a huge impetus for that. It was, okay, I need to probably grow up a bit, okay, it's time to stop hanging out at shows all. [01:34:42] Harjit Singh Gill: Weekend and then working a bit here and there, like, doing whatever. [01:34:44] Aram Arslanian: It's like, okay, finish grad school, get my master's, get a stable paying professional job and be around to help out. [01:34:55] Harjit Singh Gill: If they need something, right? Like, if my mom needs me to. [01:34:57] Aram Arslanian: Go be able to go to doctor's. [01:34:59] Harjit Singh Gill: Appointment with my dad and whatever else. [01:35:00] Aram Arslanian: And I have to give up some. [01:35:01] Harjit Singh Gill: Stuff I like, otherwise I'll do that. [01:35:03] Aram Arslanian: So I can be here. [01:35:04] Harjit Singh Gill: And still the guilt of, like, oh. [01:35:07] Aram Arslanian: I should have been there for more is brutal, right? [01:35:09] Harjit Singh Gill: Like, I don't know my dad's favorite. [01:35:10] Aram Arslanian: Color, don't know his favorite food, don't know I know I know his sports. [01:35:16] Harjit Singh Gill: Teams because we talked about that a lot. But there's a lot I wish I could have known about him that at. [01:35:20] Aram Arslanian: This point I will never know. And it influences the way I parent dramatically. I think a lot of therapists, like. [01:35:30] Harjit Singh Gill: We'Re just a reaction to our parents, right? So it's a total just like, okay. [01:35:34] Aram Arslanian: What did you get? [01:35:35] Harjit Singh Gill: And you're probably going to do something close to the maybe not the exact. [01:35:37] Aram Arslanian: Opposite, but something with an opposite reaction, right? So to me, it's like, okay, part. [01:35:45] Harjit Singh Gill: Of my work is making sure I can be at soccer practice. [01:35:48] Aram Arslanian: I can be there at every game. I can. [01:35:52] Harjit Singh Gill: Do pickup and drop off whenever we need to to try and literally be the 50% parent and not. [01:35:59] Aram Arslanian: Just the 100% breadwinner. And it's like, I want to be. [01:36:02] Harjit Singh Gill: Here at least half the time. This is important to me. I had to miss one of his soccer games because I had a half marathon. [01:36:09] Aram Arslanian: I was like, Shoot, I'm so sorry. [01:36:10] Harjit Singh Gill: I had scheduled this before your schedule came out. [01:36:13] Aram Arslanian: And I was like, so I'm going. [01:36:14] Harjit Singh Gill: To miss the game, but I'll be. [01:36:15] Aram Arslanian: Here right after, and I want to hear all about it, right? [01:36:18] Harjit Singh Gill: Otherwise, I don't try to miss anything if I can. [01:36:20] Aram Arslanian: That's just important to me. But I think. [01:36:28] Harjit Singh Gill: There'S depth there about. [01:36:31] Aram Arslanian: How that affects how I work and. [01:36:33] Harjit Singh Gill: How I lead and how I tell. [01:36:34] Aram Arslanian: Other people to work. Also, it's like, okay, you've got Sango alien. You should figure out how to be president for that. [01:36:42] Harjit Singh Gill: We will create as much time as. [01:36:43] Aram Arslanian: I can for that because that's important. That won't come back. [01:36:47] Harjit Singh Gill: You won't get into a chance of. [01:36:48] Aram Arslanian: That one, so be there. [01:36:49] Aram Arslanian: I think a lot about because there's leadership. [01:36:53] Aram Arslanian: When I was a kid, I wasn't like, I'm going to be a leader. Sure, these things kind of find you, and sometimes maybe you want to be. [01:36:59] Aram Arslanian: A leader, whatever it is. [01:37:02] Aram Arslanian: There's that kind of, like, awful moment. [01:37:03] Aram Arslanian: Where you're like, oh, I guess I'm. [01:37:06] Aram Arslanian: The head of the family now. [01:37:08] Aram Arslanian: Yeah, and awful because what you said. [01:37:12] Aram Arslanian: Is like, oh, I guess I have to grow up. It's weird to say that I was in my 40s when my dad was diagnosed, and I was like, I guess I have to grow up. It's like, by anyone's definition, I'm a grown up. Yeah, but it's that kind of punk thing keeps you a bit in that space. [01:37:26] Aram Arslanian: And the idea, I guess, of leadership, too, of really being able to kind. [01:37:34] Aram Arslanian: Of look at all of the awful. [01:37:35] Aram Arslanian: Stuff and just be like, okay, going. [01:37:37] Aram Arslanian: To have to figure it out. So anyone who's had to care for their partner or for their parent or for their child in these situations where. [01:37:46] Aram Arslanian: It'S not going to get better and you have to deal with the awfulness of it and then also try and give the best quality of life. [01:37:57] Aram Arslanian: It's a thing. Yeah, it is. That facing the wind rather than facing away from it. It's like, you've just got to look forward and let it be what it's going to be and say, okay, doesn't. [01:38:10] Harjit Singh Gill: Mean it's going to be easy, but. [01:38:12] Aram Arslanian: I'm going to look at the problem. And I'm going to slowly but surely. [01:38:18] Harjit Singh Gill: Come up with the best plan I can for the problem. Right. [01:38:20] Aram Arslanian: Which is, hey, let's find a better neurologist. Let's see if there's any other specialists. [01:38:25] Harjit Singh Gill: Are there any medical trials that we can try? [01:38:27] Aram Arslanian: Whatever. Okay, what can we do to the. [01:38:30] Harjit Singh Gill: House to make it more accessible and safe and comfortable? Let's start intervening in all the ways we can to maximize this. [01:38:36] Aram Arslanian: Like, okay, we're canceling a lot of vacations so we can go see him more. [01:38:42] Aram Arslanian: So you've talked about how that's impacted your parenting. [01:38:46] Aram Arslanian: How did it impact your work as a leader within industry? [01:38:50] Aram Arslanian: Yeah, it influences that earlier conversation we. [01:38:54] Harjit Singh Gill: Had around PTO or time off or making sure people can take care of them, do the things they need to do outside of work. [01:39:01] Aram Arslanian: Right. [01:39:01] Harjit Singh Gill: Like, if I had to work two. [01:39:02] Aram Arslanian: Jobs, I couldn't have been there for my dad. Right. And I couldn't have been there as. [01:39:08] Harjit Singh Gill: Much as I wanted to be anyways. [01:39:10] Aram Arslanian: If we can create I had a very understanding supervisor, manager, director, can't remember what her title was at the time. [01:39:20] Harjit Singh Gill: She had all three of those manager and director by the time working together. [01:39:24] Aram Arslanian: But she was well aware of what. [01:39:25] Harjit Singh Gill: Was going on with my dad. [01:39:26] Aram Arslanian: And so I would just say, like, I don't want to talk about it very much, but I need to go to this thing. [01:39:31] Harjit Singh Gill: I'm going to be gone for 3. [01:39:34] Aram Arslanian: Hours, so I'll be back afterwards, but I'll be here when I can. And I think we're always trying to improve upon what we got, but now. [01:39:46] Harjit Singh Gill: And if someone was to come to me and say the same thing, I'd. [01:39:48] Aram Arslanian: Say you don't have to come back in 3 hours. You can come back tomorrow. You don't have to be here today. You can go right? [01:39:55] Harjit Singh Gill: Like, you don't have to be here. The world will not end if you're. [01:39:57] Aram Arslanian: Not here right now because your brain is going to be there anyways. So we're just balancing here how much you're here versus how much you're here. [01:40:08] Harjit Singh Gill: Physically versus how much you're here emotionally and psychologically and kind of presence wise. [01:40:12] Aram Arslanian: And so why don't you just take. [01:40:14] Harjit Singh Gill: This time for yourself and then when. [01:40:15] Aram Arslanian: You'Re ready, you come on back. [01:40:17] Harjit Singh Gill: We'll work together on that. [01:40:18] Aram Arslanian: Like, I have timelines to talk to me. I think one of the more discouraging things was when he did die, somebody from where I used to work called. [01:40:29] Harjit Singh Gill: Me like two days later about work. And I was like, hey, my dad died. I'm on bereavement. [01:40:34] Aram Arslanian: It was like, yeah. [01:40:35] Harjit Singh Gill: I said one quick question. [01:40:36] Aram Arslanian: I was like I was like, no. [01:40:39] Harjit Singh Gill: We'Re not doing this right. [01:40:41] Aram Arslanian: I'm not indulging this worker. [01:40:44] Harjit Singh Gill: Kind of like work is life conversation. [01:40:46] Aram Arslanian: I'm just sitting on the floor here. [01:40:48] Harjit Singh Gill: I'm just doing my thing. [01:40:49] Aram Arslanian: I'm laying on the floor. I'm being sad. [01:40:52] Harjit Singh Gill: That's what I'm allowed to do right now. And this is my designated time off for that. [01:40:57] Aram Arslanian: It isn't even like I'm flexing this. I am not here as far as you're concerned, so don't call me. So I think it's giving people permission to balance those things as they need to and supporting them through it. [01:41:11] Aram Arslanian: Well, thanks for going down that because I know it's something we share and we've talked about it, and I think. [01:41:19] Aram Arslanian: For anyone listening, I hope that if. [01:41:23] Aram Arslanian: That touched some part of you, there. [01:41:25] Aram Arslanian: That'S good because it's a tough one. And there's lessons to learn for us. [01:41:29] Aram Arslanian: Like to reflect on. But also there's ways that can inform our approach to things. But let's as we're heading towards the end of the conversation, let's dial it up. Yeah, let's bring that energy. [01:41:38] Harjit Singh Gill: Let's have some fun. [01:41:39] Aram Arslanian: Yeah. [01:41:40] Aram Arslanian: All right, so the crucial three questions we're going to end with, they're tough, they're going to get harder as we go. [01:41:45] Harjit Singh Gill: I was preparing for this. I actually was running laughs this morning, preparing for the crucial I was like, I got to have good answers for this part. [01:41:51] Aram Arslanian: All right. The first one's tough, man. [01:41:53] Aram Arslanian: Stepping into the breach of this kind of work, and I consider it stepping into the breach, like, someone has to step in. [01:41:59] Aram Arslanian: People have to step into it to help. [01:42:01] Aram Arslanian: Why you? It's a good question. [01:42:05] Harjit Singh Gill: One, because I want to I think we want people to do work that they want to be doing. So a long time ago, I had. [01:42:12] Aram Arslanian: This professor who and it's not a. [01:42:14] Harjit Singh Gill: Position I necessarily agree with. [01:42:15] Aram Arslanian: He said all positions should just be paid the same system wide. And I remember him writing on the. [01:42:21] Harjit Singh Gill: Board, and I was like, oh, boy, we're going down. [01:42:25] Aram Arslanian: This is going to be a whole class, right? And his argument is like and there's. [01:42:28] Harjit Singh Gill: People like, why should a janitor make the same as a neurologist or whatever doctor? [01:42:32] Aram Arslanian: And he's like, who do you want being a doctor? [01:42:36] Harjit Singh Gill: And it was like, the person who. [01:42:37] Aram Arslanian: Wants to be there. Right, and who do you want doing. [01:42:39] Harjit Singh Gill: What they want to be doing? Because they want to be there, because. [01:42:42] Aram Arslanian: They'Ll give themselves to it, because they. [01:42:44] Harjit Singh Gill: Actually want to be doing this. You don't want people doing things just for financial gain. [01:42:48] Aram Arslanian: You want them to have some mission driven or internal focus that's propelling them do that work. So one is, I would say, because. [01:42:55] Harjit Singh Gill: I care and I want to be here. This is another roll your eyes, but it's a calling. [01:43:03] Aram Arslanian: It feels earnest and something I care about. [01:43:09] Harjit Singh Gill: And it's always been I can remember having arguments with my uncle about. [01:43:17] Aram Arslanian: Homelessness when I was I couldn't even drive a car yet, right? [01:43:20] Harjit Singh Gill: Like, it's just, like, conversation. I was like I was reading about. [01:43:23] Aram Arslanian: Social issues and it became a sociology. [01:43:26] Harjit Singh Gill: Major and studied social problems, et cetera, right? [01:43:29] Aram Arslanian: And so I think it's always been something I care about, and so I. [01:43:33] Harjit Singh Gill: Want to be doing this work because. [01:43:34] Aram Arslanian: It is a calling. And also, it's not just about fulfilling my filling, my cup. It's like, I think we want people to do work. They want to do two. I feel like I do a good job at it. [01:43:47] Harjit Singh Gill: Like, I wouldn't say I'm the best person who's ever done something, but actually. [01:43:49] Aram Arslanian: I care enough to do a really good job and to put myself into. [01:43:52] Harjit Singh Gill: It and to make sure the work is done well. [01:43:54] Aram Arslanian: The second question, of course we know. [01:43:58] Aram Arslanian: Each other, but anyone who's connected to social media or even just hears you. [01:44:01] Aram Arslanian: Talk, you speak so lovingly and glowingly. [01:44:06] Aram Arslanian: Of your wife and of your children. And I know of all things, that's like the thing that you're the most. [01:44:12] Aram Arslanian: Focused on, having a job that is so intense and has so many parts. [01:44:18] Aram Arslanian: From both just like a systems level to the day to day, like what you actually do. [01:44:24] Aram Arslanian: How do you keep that spark of. [01:44:28] Aram Arslanian: Being able to just be in life with your family? [01:44:31] Aram Arslanian: How do you do that for yourself? [01:44:33] Aram Arslanian: I think it's the perspective. It's a weird dish. But I guess the best way is it's helpful that my dad has died, right? [01:44:42] Harjit Singh Gill: In that way. There's a perspective there. It's like, oh, that's the finality, right? [01:44:45] Aram Arslanian: It's there. There's an end to this. And the work is this, and it's important. And these are my kids and this. [01:44:54] Harjit Singh Gill: Is the time I have with them, right? And so recently, someone in a forum. [01:44:59] Aram Arslanian: Said, like, oh, I have a newborn. [01:45:01] Harjit Singh Gill: I'm training for this marathon. And I'm like, I'm having a hard time balancing things. [01:45:05] Aram Arslanian: My response was something like, you should just do the next I mean, I've run three marathons. [01:45:10] Harjit Singh Gill: This is nothing against running marathons and. [01:45:12] Aram Arslanian: I'm training for two more, but just do the next one. [01:45:16] Harjit Singh Gill: Like, your baby's only going to be a baby today and tomorrow and every day they're growing and you're losing time, right? [01:45:21] Aram Arslanian: That's the finality of it, right? Not to get super existential, but this. [01:45:25] Harjit Singh Gill: Time won't come back. You can't wind it back. [01:45:28] Aram Arslanian: It's not a tape that you can. [01:45:29] Harjit Singh Gill: Spin backwards, et cetera. [01:45:31] Aram Arslanian: So it's about maintaining a real focus on presence and saying there's moments like. [01:45:40] Harjit Singh Gill: I'm scrolling emails like everybody else, but. [01:45:41] Aram Arslanian: Then I'm like, I try to be. [01:45:43] Harjit Singh Gill: Mindful, like, man, my phone is in. [01:45:45] Aram Arslanian: My hand and I should be looking at my kid. I'm going to put this down and. [01:45:49] Harjit Singh Gill: I'm going to dedicate time to this. [01:45:51] Aram Arslanian: After he goes to bed, when he goes to bed, I'll write my emails. [01:45:54] Harjit Singh Gill: I'll write notes, I'll do whatever I need to do. Right now, this goes over here so. [01:45:58] Aram Arslanian: I can be here now. And this will only be here today and tomorrow. This will be a historical footnote. So what have I got here? [01:46:07] Harjit Singh Gill: I've got today. [01:46:08] Aram Arslanian: And so I think going back to hardcore, I try to remind myself whatever. [01:46:14] Harjit Singh Gill: I need to do. [01:46:15] Aram Arslanian: Just start today. [01:46:16] Harjit Singh Gill: Whatever it is, just start today. It doesn't have to be perfect today. [01:46:20] Aram Arslanian: But just start it. [01:46:21] Harjit Singh Gill: And I can finish it as I. [01:46:22] Aram Arslanian: Go, but I can at least start today. Dude. [01:46:25] Aram Arslanian: And isn't it so wild, this record from the 80s? That's just good. Sage wisdom. [01:46:30] Aram Arslanian: Yeah. [01:46:30] Aram Arslanian: Shout out Wally and the crew grilla biscuits. [01:46:33] Aram Arslanian: The best. [01:46:34] Aram Arslanian: Love the band. Love you guys. [01:46:36] Harjit Singh Gill: I don't know how many people have been like, I can't figure out when to start doing this thing or I want to do this thing. [01:46:40] Aram Arslanian: I'm like, just start today. You want to be a, like, go. [01:46:43] Harjit Singh Gill: Run a block, run a mile? [01:46:45] Aram Arslanian: They should write you a royalties check, man. I know. [01:46:47] Aram Arslanian: They should hit up George. [01:46:49] Harjit Singh Gill: And I know Walter's a fellow runner, so he's got to get it. [01:46:52] Aram Arslanian: Totally. [01:46:52] Aram Arslanian: All right, man, last question. It's the dreaded question, but I know. [01:46:56] Aram Arslanian: You'Ve prepped for it. So the three most important to you, okay, punk or hardcore releases from the Bay area. [01:47:06] Aram Arslanian: Releases. Okay, releases then prep for releases. [01:47:10] Aram Arslanian: You want to do bands? [01:47:12] Harjit Singh Gill: I can probably come up with releases. [01:47:14] Aram Arslanian: But it has to be Bay Area only. [01:47:16] Aram Arslanian: Yeah. So the Op Ivy album is like a godsend. [01:47:21] Harjit Singh Gill: I can't believe and wherever Patrick is, I can't believe you failed that. [01:47:25] Aram Arslanian: That was the easiest answer. [01:47:26] Harjit Singh Gill: It was just op. [01:47:27] Aram Arslanian: Ivy. [01:47:28] Harjit Singh Gill: And I say this to someone who. [01:47:29] Aram Arslanian: Came to Op Ivy way later, I. [01:47:31] Harjit Singh Gill: Thought all the people wearing Op Ivy. [01:47:32] Aram Arslanian: Patches, I was like, I don't whatever. [01:47:34] Harjit Singh Gill: They'Re into is not my thing. And so there was a day where. [01:47:37] Aram Arslanian: I was scrubbing floors in a house we were moving into and someone put. [01:47:40] Harjit Singh Gill: On an Op Ivy cassette and I. [01:47:42] Aram Arslanian: Was like, what is this? And they're like, this is long after. [01:47:45] Harjit Singh Gill: You and I know each other. This is like 2006. [01:47:48] Aram Arslanian: Wow. [01:47:48] Aram Arslanian: And I was like, late comer, man. [01:47:50] Aram Arslanian: Yeah. [01:47:50] Harjit Singh Gill: I was like, this is the greatest thing I've ever heard. What is this? [01:47:53] Aram Arslanian: Genius. [01:47:54] Harjit Singh Gill: And from there, sage wisdom. [01:47:55] Aram Arslanian: I tell people all the time, even. [01:47:58] Harjit Singh Gill: When I'm training them or whatever, I was like, look, I need you to tell me. [01:48:01] Aram Arslanian: You're the expert. I may be in charge, but you have subject matter expertise. [01:48:05] Harjit Singh Gill: All I know is that I don't know nothing and that's fine. [01:48:09] Aram Arslanian: I need you to tell me. [01:48:10] Harjit Singh Gill: And I'm like, some guy named Socrates said that, but also Op Ivy said that. So I'm going to stick with Op Ivy being the more important one. [01:48:16] Aram Arslanian: Cool. So op ivy one. I'm probably going to say that era black sales, era AFI is near and dear to my heart. [01:48:27] Aram Arslanian: Well, also, like, near to perfection. [01:48:30] Harjit Singh Gill: Yeah. [01:48:31] Aram Arslanian: It is gold. It's gold. [01:48:34] Harjit Singh Gill: I'll give you an underappreciated one. And this is a shout out. [01:48:37] Aram Arslanian: Look back and Laughs was an incredible. [01:48:39] Harjit Singh Gill: Band that did not get the credit. [01:48:42] Aram Arslanian: They should in retrospect. And so I catch myself sometimes, like, if that band had come out today, what would that have been it would have been fantastic. [01:48:52] Harjit Singh Gill: But then if we're looking for the. [01:48:54] Aram Arslanian: Actual it's the Nerve Agents. It's another Eric O band. [01:48:58] Harjit Singh Gill: Not redemption, but I love the nerve agents. [01:49:01] Aram Arslanian: What? [01:49:01] Aram Arslanian: Days of the White Owl. [01:49:02] Aram Arslanian: Days of the White Owl. [01:49:04] Aram Arslanian: What a record, man. That's actually a perfect record. [01:49:07] Harjit Singh Gill: It is. [01:49:07] Aram Arslanian: That's what the I thought about this. [01:49:10] Harjit Singh Gill: This morning, and I sent it to. [01:49:11] Aram Arslanian: A thread of friends. [01:49:12] Harjit Singh Gill: I was like, am I correct? [01:49:13] Aram Arslanian: Did you sneak in a fourth? [01:49:15] Harjit Singh Gill: I did. I threw a fourth one back and. [01:49:18] Aram Arslanian: Laughing there and shout out to Casey. [01:49:21] Aram Arslanian: Yeah. Okay, listen, dude, that's a great list. You threw some outsiders in there. Everyone's going to say AFI, of course. [01:49:28] Harjit Singh Gill: Yeah. [01:49:28] Aram Arslanian: I think you're the only person who. [01:49:29] Aram Arslanian: Hit Op Ivy, though, dude. Awesome. All right, so we got to close. [01:49:33] Aram Arslanian: Off no, thank you for having me. This has been a blast. [01:49:35] Aram Arslanian: Heck, yeah. [01:49:36] Aram Arslanian: Awesome. All right, everyone. This was an amazing conversation. I got so much out of it. I got, like, pulled off my soapbox by Harjit, which I love. This is a really cool conversation. So if you are out there, you want to make a difference, you want. [01:49:49] Aram Arslanian: To do anything, there's no better time than now. [01:49:52] Aram Arslanian: Start today. My name is Aram Arslanian. [01:49:54] Aram Arslanian: And this is one Step beyond. [01:49:57] Aram Arslanian: One Step.