Norman Brannon, Texas Is The Reason, Thursday, Anti-Matter Fanzine

[00:00:00] Speaker A: We toured all across the country, booked it ourselves. Majority of shows, $5. Some shows would be like 100 people, and we might get paid like, $250. Some shows would be like 500 people, and we'd still get paid $250. And we never. And that's for both bands. And we never, ever questioned it. We never fought for it. We never. We just were like, that's what it is. You know, these. He's hardcore. He wouldn't screw us. And so sooner than later, we were all, like, shoplifting from gas stations and supermarkets, and we were literally stealing to get by. And we just thought, that's the cost of doing business. You're not worth more. And what you're worth and sort of like, what sort of value you place on things is about having a paradigm shift. I understand that when we start out in any project, we don't think we're worth anything because people haven't proven that they want it. And that's fine. Paying your dues, that's a real thing. I've played shows for nothing, just to play the show. But there does get to a point. Know your value works both ways. It means that you know your value when you're not worth much, but it also means that you know your value when you're worth a lot. [00:01:20] Speaker B: Everyone, that was a clip from today's guest. I have to tell you, this is a conversation that I wasn't necessarily anticipating. Uh, another friend of ours had recommended we have this conversation, and I was like, oh, yeah. Like, that would be such a cool person to talk to. And it wasn't that I I wasn't anticipating it as, like, oh, I've got to get this person on the podcast. It's more. So it's someone whose output has been such a part of my life, uh, for so long that it's, like, kind of didn't even occur to me, like, oh, this would be such a cool person to have on the podcast. And we did the reach out, and it was just great. Uh, really cool. I love when people, um, who are very experienced with, uh, putting their creativity out in the world come to the conversation with, like, hey, this is what it means for me to. To interact with you. And we had such a cool back and forth right off the bat that I was like, wow, this is awesome. Like, I feel like we're starting a band in, like, a weird way because we're both saying, like, this is what is important for me for interaction. So with that, today's conversation, it's someone who has done a lot of things that are public facing from very, like, small things to quite big things and things that are really a part of the tapestry of people's lives. So with that, I 100% know that this is an episode that you're going to get a lot out of, and that I know I'm going to as well. So with that, please subscribe to the podcast. My name is Aram Arslanian, and this is one step beyond Norman. Welcome to the show. [00:03:05] Speaker A: Hey, thanks. It's good to be here. [00:03:08] Speaker B: Cool. All right, so for the uninitiated, for those who do not know, who are you and what do you do? [00:03:14] Speaker A: Um, okay, so this has always been a contentious question for me, because I, uh, I started doing things very early in my life, and how I started doing things was more or less out of survival than it was out of passion or even desire. Um, and so that's been a weird thing, because I think you make, you know, a lot of times we can make decisions early in our lives and they stick. Something happens and you're just in it for the rest of your life. And so what happened to me is that I was just about to turn 16 years old, and I decided to drop out of school. And I didn't drop out of school because I was, uh, you know, struggling, um, with grades. I was very purposely failing. I just felt very uninterested and, uh, and uninspired. Um, and I always remember, actually, this weird exchange I had with an art teacher, um, at some point before I dropped out, where, uh, I was just reading Bhagavad Gita in class. And she's like, I wasn't doing whatever she asked us to do. And, and she said, you won't find the answers to art in bhagavad gita. And I thought that was really interesting because I was like, well, I mean, maybe, maybe not, but it should sort of be my decision whether or not this is a thing that inspires me in art. And at that point, I did consider myself somewhat of an artist. I've always sort of played music, and I've always been a writer. But that was the thing when I dropped out, ultimately, those were the only two things that I had to show for myself. And my parents basically told me that if I wasn't in school, I had, they did the generic, you know, you can't stay under my roof if you're not going to stay in school. So I said, fine. And I just kind of went off on my own and writing and playing music. They were the only two skills I had I had no job experience, I had no real world experience. I was lucky enough to be able to get a job at a health food store for a while, but ultimately I knew that it was going nowhere. And so I started playing in bands and I started writing a fanzine. And by 1994 or so I'd say, or really, by 1983, I was, when I was 19, I was already making what I could, what I would have called a living. Back then I was surviving by playing guitar and writing, and I wasn't thriving, but I was surviving. And that was good enough for me because I was just a young punk who needed to pay his rent, needed to eat, and that was it. Those were my needs. So since then, I've kind of taken those two things into a variety of different places. I've published fanzines, I published a book, I've recorded records, I've worked at a record company, I've hosted a television show that was like a queer pop culture show. I have put on shows. I currently publish a substack newsletter that has also become quite a significant part of my living and a variety of other things where I would just say I followed my muse and I'm about to turn 50. So for at least 34 years, it's sort of worked out. [00:07:15] Speaker B: Perfect answer. Im really interested about that tension between survival and passion. Its where you started conversationally and is there still an interchange between those two things? It first started with just survival. Like, I need to figure this out and make some kind of living, have some kind of direction. At some point did survival fall into the background and passion became more of the guide, or is survival still part of the equation? [00:07:47] Speaker A: I think there's equity between them now. I had a growing passion that eventually caught up with my survival necessity. And so the passion, I would say there was maybe one point in my life where the passion had the potential to become a dictator. And that was probably in 1997 when Texas, the reason was in a bidding war. That was a band. I was in the, and we were in the middle of this literally multimillion dollar bidding war. And it seemed like, did I finally do something that might actually set me up into a place where I can just be creative and not worry about anything else? And then I quit the band before we signed. So that's a whole other side of it. But the point being, I think, is that I've, for the most part, except for five years between 98 and 2003, I've lived in New York City. And I think everyone in New York City is in survival mode. I think everyone thinks they're paying too much for what we, you know, how we live. And I definitely do. I'm definitely one of those people. I think I pay way too much to be in a city that. I mean, I tour like, six months a year now. I'm barely even here. I'm paying for an empty box. So I think that that never leaves you. And also, I grew up in Queens. I grew up in New York. So it's like, this is. I think this is just baked into. [00:09:27] Speaker B: Me at this point around that idea of survival. And you're saying there's kind of, like, equity between the two of them. I don't want to speak about anyone else's creative process, but the idea of someone just being able to follow their passion from the outset and so not having any survival aspect of it, I don't know. That kind of. That tension between survival and passion to. To me, seems to be a part of creating anything really great. I'm interested in your perspective of that. Like, I don't want to say, is it impossible to create great art or creativity without the survival aspect. But I am interested, like, your perspective. How crucial is the survival aspect in being able to create something great? [00:10:12] Speaker A: Well, for me, I think that answer has evolved over the years. And so I can sort of maybe hark back to something from a conversation that I just had yesterday with Luke Kohler, the singer for the span and sick of it all, and sick of it all have been a band for almost 40 years. Lou is about to turn 59. And we had this conversation about. Some of this conversation happened on the record, and some of this conversation happened off. So I'll only talk about what I said, but what I was saying was that I feel like for a long time, punk kids specifically, but I think also anyone who subscribes by this false dichotomy of art versus commerce have this potential to basically create something that doesn't need to exist. So what I mean by that is, I think that for a long time, we've been thinking with a short sighted lens. So we've been thinking just about the sort of immediate result of something and not the long term result of something. And when we talk about longevity, when we talk about a band like sick of it all, or even we talk about someone like me, who's been doing it for as long as I have, in order to have longevity, in order to continue to do my passion, in order to be creative, I cannot be destitute. We like to think that it's very romantic for artists to be destitute and bands deserve to be broke because that's what you decided when you were a kid. And there's almost like a brush off mentality about artists in general. And definitely bands. We don't deserve it. We're just having fun. And who gets paid for having fun? How dare you? And anyone who's ever done it, and specifically anyone who's ever done it for any amount of time knows it's not fun. 90% of the time it's not fun. It's work. And so I'm doing the work. And I have reason to believe that people want that work to continue because people continue to come to the shows. People subscribe to antimatter, thousands of people. I believe that people want this work in the world, but if I can't support myself, I can't do the work. So at some point we have to make a decision about what it is that we really want. And if we want the art, we need to think about the artist. We need to think about how are we supporting this person long term. When I'm 59 years old, am I still going to be set up? What if I can't do the art anymore? Like, well, tough shit. Thanks for your 40 years of service. I don't know. I don't know that I have an answer to this. I just know that we're not talking about it and at least we're not talking about it, right? [00:13:35] Speaker B: I love that. Since you brought up Sikh vital, I'm very interested in your perspective on this. Very often when I talk about punk. And I'm also going to bring Walter into the conversation for a second. For anyone who wouldn't know Walter within the scene that Norman and I are a part of, either fully both feet in or partially in, whatever that might be, Walter's a pretty looming figure in the best of ways. Put out a great body of work. So he was on the show at one point, he was talking about, uh, there's no saltier audience than the punks. You know, like, the punks are like the most critical. They can be the most. They can be the most loving and supportive, and there are. There are people, but they can also be like really, really critical. And how I'm going to bring this into sick of it all is I have often considered sick of it all to be the band that figured out how to do hardcore professionally, like make money and make a living out of hardcore, while also still saying staying completely hardcore and to the community and part of it and doing it very well. And like, what I believe was like a has been and continues to be like a really ethical, cool way of doing a band and making a living out of it. But it also means that they didn't get tons of shit about it, especially in the early days, especially when, in effect. And I'll bring up the born against the born against sick of it all, like, argument on that radio show. I think that's kind of like one of the coolest things. It's like a real snapshot of, like, of, like, punk ideology starting to cross over into, like, well, wait, are we artists that are trying to do something that lasts and makes an impression or are we ultimately just trying to take a stand and that we'll blow ourselves up as a result of that? I just want to get your thinking on that because I know you're probably intimately acquainted with, like, all parties involved, and I'm sure, of course, you've heard that interview. [00:15:29] Speaker A: Well, yeah. And I think that. Here's the thing that I think is funny. I actually talked to Lou a little bit about how he. How I do think. Like, even when they signed to a major label, I don't feel like they got as much shit as quicksand did. I don't know why, but my theory was that people know that's sick of it all are working class kids from queens with nice parents that told them, work hard for your money, earn your money honestly. And they just went out into the world and that's what they did. And they've treated this band like a workhorse since 1986, you know. Yeah, it's been very much a responsibility, but it's also been a grind. And that's, you know, and people respect that. That's not to say that quicksand grew up in lavish mansions. They didn't. But the perception is different. For whatever reason. The perception of sick of it all, maybe because they wore tank tops and had Queen's accents, it had a different. It hit different. So I think that what that tells me, though, is that it's sort of interesting to me because I do feel like hardcore. Ultimately, when I think about all of the people that I know from the early hardcore scene, people who were hanging out in 1980, 1980, 119 82, the overwhelming majority of them were truly working class or working poor. Right. And so there is something about this community that. That places a value on that. So when you talk about sick of it all versus born against, people saw born against as well. Number one, you guys aren't even from New York City. And number two, you guys are like, compared to the Kohler brothers, you guys are privileged. So hooray. That you can just say no to major labels or whatever, but sick of all are out there grinding. They gotta bring home the bacon. And I think that that's, that attitude still sort of exists a little bit today. It's almost like a reverse classism. But I get it. I get where it comes from historically. [00:18:00] Speaker B: Well, I just love what you're saying because as a kid, when I first heard that interview, I was like, I love punk and hardcore. I like, I love this so much. And in a lot of ways, I want it to be my little secret and me and my friend's little secret. On the flip side, I want sick of it all or any band who's gonna do it, do it to be able to survive and do great things. And I do want their record to be in like the mom and pops record store, but also the big chain record store. And that kind of. I referenced this interview a lot and it's no negativity towards anyone in that interview because they were all like kids at the time. We're all just trying to figure ourselves out. But I love it also seems to me such kind of a good argument of the space of. To what you even launched from like survival versus passion and being able to like invest in, have that kind of cool creative tension between the two of them to create great art, but also to like, make a living and do something with that. I love, I really loved what you said about like the working class versus kind of the privilege thing because I will say sacred all for me when I was a kid. And still to this day, it's like, I look at that band as like the hometown heroes, even though I'm from Canada, like Calgary, Alberta, just the hometown being hardcore. Like, I'm such a fan and believer in that band and they're just like the hometown kids that made good and did it, did it, but did it real well. And now you wouldn't even bat an eyelash at like a hardcore band making a living out of it. You'd be totally cool. But back then that was a, like, whoa, they really went for it. [00:19:30] Speaker A: Well, I would say maybe you and I feel that way, but I think there are a lot of people who still feel like you shouldn't be able to make a living playing hardcore. Totally. Which, you know, again, it's just like I didn't have any other means. My parents asked me to leave and I never received another diamond support from them ever. So I don't know what I'm supposed to do, then I don't know why I've been called to suffer. You know, this was my situation. It was either figure out a way to survive or die. Like, literally was not an option. Yes, death was not an option. So it's, I don't know, like, maybe if you've never truly been put in that predicament, it's easy to get hypothetical about all the things that you would and wouldn't turn down if you were in my position. But that mentality still exists in me. I still very much kind of operate in a scarcity mentality. [00:20:36] Speaker B: A lot more that I want to say about this, but I don't want to get too derailed because I want to go back to your story. So you're out on your own. How did you actually maybe take a step back? How did you even find this kind of punk hardcore creative space? Because I know your output is more course, than punk and hardcore, but how did you even find this in the first place? [00:20:55] Speaker A: This community, I think this was the benefit of living in New York City. Truthfully, I had been pretty much exposed to it accidentally in a couple of different ways before. I kind of officially felt like, oh, these are my people. But I mean, to give you the most out there example of how I brushed against it way before, like, when I was a child, I was aware of hardcore and punk because I lived so. I grew up in Woodside, Queens. I grew up on 52nd street, across the street from a park, which at that point I think the name has changed, but at that point it was called Windmiller park. And there was an area of the park that in my family we sort of called the back of the park. I don't know if it was the back of the front, but that's what we called it because it was the furthest point away from our apartment. And the back of the park had a bunch of those chess tables and things where normally older folks hang out and play chess and do those types of things. But it was taken over by a street gang called the zombies of Woodside. The zombies of Woodside were all skinheads and punks and they would just hang out there and listen to music. And sometimes I would walk over, just kind of curious because that's a. The kind of person I am. I'm curious and I like to talk to people, even when I was eight. And. And so I actually sort of befriended one of them. He was really nice to me and sort of treated me like a little brother and he called me little man. And I really just sort of like, I was very affectionate for him. And so, but, you know, as far as what they were or what they were into, there was no registration of that. I didn't, I didn't get it. I didn't know, I didn't identify it until much later. And even in fourth grade, my fourth grade teacher, she was asking me one day if she knew I was really into music. And she said, do you ever want to play an instrument? I said, yeah, I want to play drums. And she said, my brother plays drums. And she gave me a tape of her brother's band and her brother was Johnny feedback from Kraut. And I didn't like it. But, you know, three years, literally three years later, when I was twelve, I accidentally sort of like, bought a Crumbsuckers record because I really liked the artwork on it. And so I was in school drawing the little crumbsucker guy on one of my notebooks, and a kid sees me and says, you like the crumb suckers? And I was like, yeah, love them. You know who they are? And he's like, my cousin plays guitar. So again, this is all New York shit. And so the first show I ever went to was an all ages Crumbsuckers show. And after that, it became like this deep dive for me. Like, I didn't go to another show for probably six or seven months after that, but during that six or seven months. And again, this tells you something about my personality. It was basically research time. I knew I had discovered something. It was very interesting to me. I was really, I was able to identify it as more than just a music. I was able to identify it as a culture. And I want to know everything about it. So that's when I discovered fanzines. I started buying records. I was just reading everything I could, trying to find people who could talk to me about it. Writing people blindly from the Max Moroccan rel pen pals pages. And by that summer of 1987, I would say that was when I fully, I believed that this was something important and that this was something that I was most likely going to be a part of for a very long time. [00:24:47] Speaker B: There's so much stuff I want to hit on. I want to keep it focused on. With your initial output that you're starting to do both musically and writing, when was the point where you had a like, oh, people are actually into what I'm doing, and maybe I could do something with this. [00:25:04] Speaker A: Well, with writing, it was very much a slow burn. I thought I liked what I wrote. My first fanzine probably reads terrible now. And even when I started doing antimatter, I knew I was doing something different. And each issue developed in a way that I was pleased with. And I know this sounds bad almost to feel like I needed some sort of external validation beyond the fact that even the first issue of Antimatter sold 2000 copies, which at that point was like, wow, that's huge. And antimatter eventually went up to 5000 copies, which again was like for our community in the mid nineties. That's huge. And even though I knew I was doing that, it wasn't until I got a call from this guy, Rob Cherry, who at the time was the editor in chief for Alternative Press. And he asked me if I would be interested in writing. I don't know if he described it as a scene report of sorts, but something like a state of the union for New York hardcore in 1996. And I was kind of surprised that a legitimate publication wanted to pay me to write for them. And maybe that's it. Maybe it was the first time that I got paid to write for someone else that I started to feel like, okay, like maybe there's something here. Maybe I actually am better than I think even. And I remember the first cover story that I wrote for alternative Press was this was maybe 1995. It was when Rage against machines, Evil Empire came out and I wrote a cover story on Rage against the Machine. And I remember turning it in and rob the editor calling me and saying, I just want you to know that this is exactly what I've always wanted to publish. And I just was blown away because I was just into telling stories. And if you read that story today, you'll see it's just a collection of stories. So that was a huge part for me with writing, as far as music goes. I had played a number of bands in the early nineties, but Texas is the reason was the band that really showed me that I could create things that had meaning to people and that I felt was going to be enduring. Even back then I knew that whatever we were doing, I still haven't really. [00:27:42] Speaker B: Experienced that feeling again for both music and playing guitar or playing any instrument. And also for writing. There was, as far as I understand it, please correct me if I'm wrong, there was not any formal training. And your formal education ended when you were quite young, right? [00:28:00] Speaker A: Right. You know, my brother is actually a virtuoso of guitar. Like, literally, if he wasn't my brother and I saw him play, I would be slack jawed. And he plays everything. You know, he plays classical, jazz, flamenco, blues, rock fusion, you know, you name it. He is someone who practiced guitar. I cannot even tell you. Like, when we lived together, it was like, I don't even know when he slept. It was like 20 hours a day, nonstop. I knew I never wanted to do that. I wasn't interested in training. I was interested in expression. And I think that's where he and I always differed. I eventually asked him. I played him a record. Okay, so this was in the eighties. There was a compilation album called someone got their head kicked in. Had like, youth brigade, battalion of saints. I remembered the song Pillbox by the Joneses. It was one of my favorite songs. And I played him this record and I said, I want to learn how to play guitar like that. And he said, it's all one chord. And he taught me the chord and I said, thank you for your help. I'll be on my way. And then eventually you sit around with a guitar long enough and you just start figuring out how to play other things. But to this day, I cannot tell you what I play. I cannot tell you what chord formation I'm using. What? Most of the time I can't even tell you what chord I'm using. I have to count frets. Like, it's. I. Sometimes I wish that I knew a little bit more than I did. But then I also feel like there's something about that lack of training that makes me rely so much on intuition and creative expression that I feel like the things that I've made would not. [00:30:01] Speaker B: Sound the same had I been trained 100%. So I want to hit on something that I think is. It's certainly not unique only to punk and hardcore, but it has so much to do with it. That idea that you don't need to have a formal background in something or a record label or any kind of, like, infrastructure around you to do something and to actually do something that can change people's lives or at least change yours of great meaning. How much of that was in you already versus how much of that did you learn from punk? [00:30:33] Speaker A: If I'm honest, I think I would probably say that I learned everything from punk on that level because there isn't really another style of music that I can think of where amateurism is an aesthetic. Like, you know what I mean? It's like we all knew that there were bands that could play better than other bands, but we still supported the other bands. And I think that that's something that, you know, even as hardcore progresses and has gotten so big in recent years, I just don't want to ever lose that, because that is what creates the open door for people to come in and get better and develop and figure out who they are, both as amateurs and later as at least competent musicians. I wouldn't say I'm an expert, but I'm competent. And so, you know, I have a. I had a conversation with Kent McLard, who used to do this fanzine heart attack in the nineties. And he told me how they had this very open policy towards contributors. He said, I wanted bad writing and I know I could have fixed it. I know, like, know I could have found even better writers, but I was like, somebody has to allow these people a chance to start, and I wanted to be that. And I just thought that was, like, really beautiful. [00:32:00] Speaker B: So beautiful. And Ken McLart is kind of an interesting person to the culture. I mean, when I was coming up, I think it was kind of in ebullitions heyday where it felt like such a challenge to what had been going on in more of, like, hardcore mainstream, if I can, like, the revelation records and all of that. It felt like such a direct, not attack, but a real alternate position. And I found it totally interesting. So much stuff that happened with ebullition and how Kent ran that label and the extra writings that would be in records, it really formed my idea of how a release could be more than just what's on the wax or on the cd. And it could actually be more of a conversation having to do with the art, the extra writings, how the label even interacted with people. He just did stuff and continues to do stuff that I felt was really interesting. But ebullition seems to have kind of like fallen into the background a little bit, almost like if, you know, you know, rather than being like something that's like a, you know, a topic of conversation. [00:33:01] Speaker A: Today, although the recent resurgence of interest in the orchid has been really interesting for him and, you know, he's had to repress records and he's completely. This word is so dowdy, but he's completely befuddled by it. We don't get to decide what the kids like in the future, is the thing. [00:33:32] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. Well, shout out to Kent, man. He made such a impact on my life. So kind of launching you into that, kind of that survival space was this break that you're talking about from your family and that, you know, that traditional, like, if you're not going to school, you can't live under my roof. Where are you at with your family now? And how did that change over time, as you did, actually not just survive, but actually end up doing really significant things in the world. [00:34:00] Speaker A: It got worse, but only in the sense that I think that when something like that happens, when you get rejected from your family, everyone deals with it differently. But for me, there was kind of a no going back thing. I felt like you, you know, there was a sense to me that you made your decision, that I feel like this is a poor decision, that I've always been raised to believe one way about family and blood being thicker than water. And yet I was so easily discarded that there was no sense that I wanted a relationship with them after that. And I, you know, I probably spent, I'd say, about ten to twelve years after that, more or less just having a meaningless conversations with my family. I never told them what was really happening. I never told them how I was really feeling about anything. It was literally talking about the weather for twelve years. And eventually that connection was completely severed when I decided to come out to them where I was 30 years old. So at that point, I kind of was just over having a relationship that felt meaningless. It was a strain on me mentally every time someone in my family would call. I was just tired of being fake. And so we had a conversation. I came out, sort of listed my grievances, and then I did what I thought was a very adult thing, which is, and I was 30, so I was an adult. But I said to them that I'd be willing to overlook our past and to forge a new future together under one condition. And what I said was that I. I've never felt unconditional love in this family, that this family has been always conditional. And if you were willing to just try, I'm not asking for perfection, just try to figure out what it means to love someone unconditionally. And I'm going to try to do the same despite our past and despite everything we've been through. If you can do that, I said, call me back. If you cannot do that, I said, don't call me back. And about six months later, I had not yet received a phone call. So I essentially, at that point, changed my phone number and I changed my name. I got rid of the last name that they gave me and I moved on with my life. And I will say that I've been in therapy for that point for years. So I was very aware and sort of, like, worked through the issues that I thought I might need to work through if the conclusion was the one that indeed transpired. So I was a little wrecked. I think it's, you know, even if you don't have a relationship with your family, it feels pretty harsh to be fully disconnected or disowned. But, you know, there was a lot of. For me, there was a lot of joy, actually, in sort of now thinking about the new possibilities and in thinking about the way that I have lived my life, which is where I've been able to find community and family in other places that I think run deeper than blood. So that's the life that I continue to lead 20 years later. I know that my parents died in 2012 and 2016, but I only know that because I googled it and I found their obituaries. But it didn't. Yeah, it didn't really move me. There was no grief. I just was like, okay, those are some people that I used to know. [00:38:33] Speaker B: Thanks for sharing that and for that, being so open about it. I want to ask you, you made reference to kind of like, the chosen family, the family that you found along the way. For a lot of people who, let's say, play music, we'll add music in, but let's actually. Let's put music on the side for a second for a lot of people to have family, and then they'll have their work connections, and then if they play music, then they'll have their band connections, or if they're involved in any kind of creative output and they don't do that professionally, they'll have those kinds of connections for you. It was, you kind of found your people within your creative pursuits, and it's also how you make your living. So you have basically your chosen family who are part of your creative process, and also you're tied to making a living. So how have you managed relationships that have so much, like, weight and complexity? [00:39:31] Speaker A: I've gotten better. I think if you'd asked me that question in the nineties, I would have said that I'm very piss poor at doing that. And I think I was. The relationships, for example, that I have with a couple of the members of Texas is a reason, not ideal relationships and dysfunctional. I'm not claiming ownership of all of it, but I certainly claim my share. And I think part of it is that it's really difficult to. When you're dealing with one person in so many different factors of your life, there's going to be bleeding, and, you know, you might be mad at something that they did or said while you were hanging out, and, oh, my God, now I got to be on a bus with them for two months. It's really. It's probably not healthy, if I'm being honest. But I think as I've gotten older, and especially in the last few years with Thursday, we've all talked about this now at ad nauseam, because Thursday has been a band since 1999, and there is a lot of baggage in this band. I actually made a movie about this band in 2007, and when I interviewed every member of the bandaid, I remember every single time I would say something that another member said, and the member I was talking to would just be like, are you serious? He said that, like, have no idea. And I was like, do you guys talk to each other ever? There was just no sense that there was any communication, and I was just like, God, how have you been a band this long? Right? And now here we are. Fuck. Almost 20 years after that. But we're ahead. Everybody in that band has leveled it up in terms of how they relate with one another and how they want to relate with one another in the future. And part of it, honestly stems from the knowledge. And this sounds very 2024 cliche, but it comes from the knowledge and gratitude that there's no reason that we should be doing what we're doing at the level that we're doing it this far into the future. Like, it is wild to all of us. Literally, every time we play a great show or go on tour, it's just like, wow, people paid to see us again. We take nothing for granted. And so on that level, it's also about not taking each other for granted. And I think that's what has sort of informed my relationships in the present tense. [00:42:21] Speaker B: I want to dive into this a little bit something, and only for anyone listening, like, context here. Norman and I have only just now, literally, first time we're ever meeting each other, but in turn, to do the podcast together, there was, like, a little bit of a back and forth that I think was a real healthy back and forth about. And it wasn't said that way, but it's just the way that I view it. And just so you know, Norman, my. My background is a therapist. I was a therapist for, like, a decade before starting the company that I run now. So when we were kind of having this, like, uh. I don't want to say negotiation, but it was kind of talking about what we needed for a conversation. I was like, oh, Norman's really good with boundaries. Like, you're just really good with. With asking for what you need. Is that something that. Well, not is. It sounds like that's something that you've, like, gotten good at. About saying what you need upfront to make things, uh, strong for you or feel good for you. [00:43:16] Speaker A: Yes. I think that previously, there's always this fear that people will see you as difficult to work with, that people won't want to work with you, that opportunities won't come because, oh, he asks for too much. And to be fair, sometimes I've done things that were taking the piss, but they were consciously taking the piss. For example, in 2003, I want to say Coca Cola came to us and asked to use a new and original song for an ad campaign. It was a summer ad campaign, and at this point, I had had a little bit of experience with syncs. Texas had licensed a song to Mercedes Benz for a commercial in Germany. And I knew what we made for that commercial. And Coke was, in comparison, not offering as much. And I just thought, well, wait a second. Only a handful of people drive Mercedes Benz, but everyone drinks coke. You've got to pay up. Like me alone. I probably drank more anxiety coke than you're offering me. So it became a thing where Jonah and I. So Jonah was the singer for new end, and we had this conversation, and we made this agreement. We said, okay, do we feel strong enough that if they don't get to a place that we feel good about, that we're happy walking away with nothing? And we both agreed, absolutely, it's Coca Cola. And so we went back and forth with them over and over. And I was sort of just. Again, this was taking the piss. This was negotiating, but it was also a boundary. It was also saying, I'm worth something. I have value, and I know my value. The principle is the same. And so finally, coke just says, God, what do you want? Just name the number. We already made the commercial. We can't go back now. And. Which I thought was hilarious, that they gave that information up. And so we came up with a number. And they ultimately. What they decided to do was they prorated the number and said, we will use this commercial in New Zealand, Australia, and Thailand, where it's currently summer, and then we'll get back to you about other territories. So we were fine with that, and we let it go. Most of the time, boundaries are just about being honest and not having that moment that everyone knows. Everyone knows the moment when you sort of grind your teeth a little bit because you want to make a boundary, but you can't for whatever reason. And I've completely lost that reflex. There are very few things to me that are worth it unless I can do them under certain conditions. [00:46:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. And just to support that, one of the things that I think is really important is, like, if someone, if I'm dealing with anyone, like, whether it's through my professional career or the podcast or bands or whatever it is, I just want to know what people need upfront to make them feel good about whatever we're doing. Well, it doesn't have to be some, like, list of demands, you know, like something ridiculous like that. But I just want to have, like, a real understanding of what. Of what. Of what we need. We all need, so that we can make an informed decision. And it's the idea of, like, an informed decision that really matters to me. I'm going to be 50 this summer. My wife and I have three kids. You know, I've got a business. My mom lives with us. Like, I got a lot of balls in the air. I'm down to do tons of stuff, but I want to be able to make an informed decision about my time, who I'm engaging with, all of those things. And I like when people set boundaries, it helps me understand, like, yep, okay, cool, I can totally commit to that. Or, oh, no, you know, that's more than I can give right now. Would I have done that when I was 30? Hell no. When I was 30, I would literally. Well, maybe not 30, but, like, let's say in my twenties, I would quit my part time job that I was doing in college so I could drive 6 hours to play a 30 minutes set in a basement. You know, like, there were, there were no boundaries. It was just all about, like, the experience and going and doing this thing and, like, following the passion. As I've gotten older, it's like, I want to follow the passion, but I also want to make sure that it's like, no. Like, I need to feel good about this. So I loved. I loved our back and forth. I was awesome. And I, like, I felt it was, like, super practical. It stood out to me, though, because it really struck me as someone who wants to make sure that, like, what they're doing is a good use of their time and that they feel good about from the outside. And I thought that was great. I did want to ask you something that's connected to that around mental health. A lot of creatives, and not all, but a lot of creatives kind of have a challenging background around mental health because so much of what drives us to create is also, like, kind of like the noise between our ears and all that, our life experiences. You've been a long term creative who has literally been making a living through the process of creation, the output being a part of that for so long. What have you done to address your mental health? You had mentioned, uh, therapy. Um, is that an ongoing process for you? And if so, like, and where have you landed with that? But also, what else do you do to, like, really attend to that mental health? [00:49:10] Speaker A: So therapy was something that I started, Rudy, I would say early, um, especially early in this culture. So, you know, in my twenties, um, a lot of it was, if I'm being honest, because, you know, back then, it was still. It was sliding scale, but it was still expensive. It was more than I had. Um, and honestly, I was just paying this person just to be able to say things like, I'm gay out loud, and. And not let that sort of sit in me. So bottled up and sort of creating so much angst and anger. But in the process, I've known and was later diagnosed with major depressive disorder. I've had that for as long as I can remember, even to the point where I remember being five or six years old and struggling with depression, which is crazy to me to think about now, when. Especially when I see a five or six year old kid, I remember the feelings that I was dealing with inside at that point. And I can't imagine putting those feelings into a five or six year old kid that I meet, because there's something about it that just seems so wrong to feel that way at that age. This feeling that I always had, though, was very much just one of disconnection. And it's telling that I think I moved into a lot of dissociation as a kid as well. And the reason why I say it's telling is because I think part of my mental health practice of the last ten years, I would say, and certainly of the last five, has involved a process that I call, um, embodiment, which means, for me anyway, what this means is ending the false binary between mind and body. I think that over so many years, I'm kind of shocked that nobody in the mental health profession ever told me or asked me, what do you do physically? Like, how are you taking care of yourself physically? It was always just talk about your childhood, and talk about the mind and everything that's going on in my mind and my feelings and crying and all this stuff. All good to know. But the mind does not operate separate from the body. It is interdependent. And the sooner you learn that, the sooner you have a million more tools at your disposal to help at least lessen the blunt impact of depression. And so for me, some of that was from working out and from exercise. But also, oddly enough, about five years ago, I moved into a situation where I started practicing with a Zen teacher, and I, he used that term as part of meditation practice in Zen. And I was like, whoa, tell me more about this. How do you use this term embodiment? And the way I've sort of received it is that in my meditation practice, again, a lot of people meditate, but they focus everything on them mind. And in this meditation process, in Zen meditation, Zazen they call it, it's really about feeling everything, and it's about understanding and feeling every part of your body. Whenever it twitches, whenever it pains you, whenever it sort of moves by itself, almost seemingly right. You're sitting there in stillness, but you're still aware of your body, and you're still aware that it's moving. Doing something, even internally, and being able to sit with my own body as well as my mind is a completely different practice for me. And I think it's one that I will say also that there are adverse meditation reactions for some people, and that some people can actually reignite trauma sometimes from sitting this way. But for me anyway, I feel like I've been able to get to a place with it where that interdependence between body and mind becomes real, and I no longer fully depend on my mind to fix my mind. [00:53:57] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. I want to pop back to something you said a few minutes ago about asking for what you're worth as a creative. We get people from all sorts of places to the podcast. There's some people who come from the corporate world, some people come from punk and hardcore, the creative side. And we're really fortunate to be able to have spent a lot of time with people from different sides of the creative process. What advice or thinking can you share with people about charging your worth and how people figure that out? [00:54:31] Speaker A: I think that I started this question at a huge disadvantage, because when I started going to shows, every show was $5, no matter what. It was dollar five. Whether the room fit 50 people or the room fit dollar 500 people, it was dollar five. Whether there were three bands or whether there were twelve bands, it was, you know, it didn't matter. There was no sense of why the fuck did we come up with this price, right? And so what happens is then we had, you know, I remember the first tour I ever went on, in 1991, I think it was, or 1992, I was in a band called Resurrection, and we were touring with lifetime, and we toured all across the country booked it ourselves. Majority of show was $5. Some shows would be like 100 people, and we might get paid, like, $250. Some shows would be like 500 people, and we'd still get paid $250. And we never. And that's for both bands. And we never, ever questioned it. We never fought for it. We never. We just were like, that's what it is. You know, he's. He's hardcore. He wouldn't screw us. Um, and so sooner than later, we were all, like, shoplifting from gas stations and, you know, supermarkets and, like, you know, we were literally stealing to get by. And we just thought that's the, you know, cost of doing business. You know, you're not worth more. And so this is. This is a thing about me. What you're worth and sort of like, what sort of value you place on things is about having a paradigm shift. I understand that when we start out in any project, we don't think we're worth anything because people haven't proven that they want it. And that's fine. Paying your dues, I think that's fine too. That's a real thing. I've played shows for nothing, just to play the show. But there does get to a point. Know your value works both ways. It means that you know your value when you're not worth much. But it also means that you know your value when you're worth a lot. And if you continue to act like you're not worth much, people will continue to treat you that way. And having that paradigm shift, which does require a sense of self awareness and self worth is tantamount to being successful in any creative field, because the second you start acting like you're worth less than you are, you're done. You can never recover from that, because now you're setting a precedent. And once you set the precedent that you're not worth anything, that will continue to haunt you forever. I've gotten to a place in my life where, again, it's sort of like the coke commercial. I feel like I know what I'm worth. I know what something is worth, or I know at least what it's worth to me. And if I don't get that thing, it's cool, I'm out. No hard feelings, right? Like, I want to be worth something that I've actually earned as well. It's not. I'm not talking about entitlement, and I'm not talking about, like, some bloated sense of. Of worth, but being realistic. I can tell you how many tickets we can sell I can tell you about how many records this is going to sell. And based on those things, based on that experience, I have an idea of what Im worth. [00:58:16] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. And its an interesting thing. Whenever I ask anyone who makes a living from creative pursuits about this, one of the things that I find is kind of like, theres this part of the conversation where theyre always like, hey, its not bloated, its not this and its not that. People who were created from all sorts of different backgrounds, I think we all have this fear of being perceived as being asking too much or being egotistical or who is this demanding person that we can overcompensate. On the flip side, in this discussion about it, I really liked how you talked about like, know what you're not worth. Like, hey, I don't have enough output to be asking a lot of money, but I also know what you're worth. And you actually were breaking it down to specifics. This is how many tickets we've sold or we can sell. This is how many records we've sold. Like getting more of that data and helping that funnel into your asks is like unbelievably good, including just like gut feeling. And also like, well, this is actually what it's worth to me. But with that, I do want to hit on something that I think was standing out to me in this conversation. It was like we were like, yeah, so we had this song with Texas of the reason that Mercedes used. And now we've got this other thing with new end original that's going to be on a coke commercial. There's got to have been a point where that started or where it was a surreal moment for you, where it's like, what Mercedes and coke want to use, my output. So tell us about like, if you ever had a moment like that and like kind of how you processed it. [00:59:54] Speaker A: Well, the Mercedes moment was the first time that I'd ever been asked about a sink. And you got to understand, Texas is the reason we fancied ourselves like the New York Fugazi, right? We fancied ourselves as being like hyper ethical, you know, very cut from Washington DC punk cloth. Even though we were from New York, we loved the $5 show. We refused to play any show that wasn't all ages. We were very conscious about t shirt prices and ticket prices and really trying to be as accessible as we possibly could. But we were also living in a paradox because we lived in New York City and New York City is the city of survival, and we were all paying way more rent than every other band of our ilk from that time. And it just cost more to survive, as Texas is the reason. So the paradox that we had at that point was when the major labels came calling, and at 1.1, major label offered a three record deal for over $3.5 million, with 500,000 of that being a non recoupable signing bonus. So we would just get half a million dollars just to sign. Here you go. You never have to pay this back. We don't come from money. So this was, like, we had to start early with asking these questions about what are we willing to do? What does make this worth it? Ultimately, the major label thing didn't happen, and we broke up. And when we broke up, we maybe had a little bit of money put away, but we didn't have a lot. So we were starting kind of from scratch. And the Mercedes thing came up not long after we broke up. Our knee jerk response? No, right? No way. We're not fucking selling our song to a car commercial. Fuck that. It was a real, very punk knee jerk response. And then there was the conversation. Because we don't believe in knee jerk responses, we have to have the conversation. Let's weigh this out and let's figure this out. And in the end, I think we decided that if we didn't do it, some other band will. And we saw the commercial, we knew that it wasn't some sort of, like, thing where they were gonna take our song and put it against, like, a stripper or something. Like, it was like, you know, it was literally just our song with actual footage of the moon landing, which kind of felt even a little bit appropriate because we would always play with, like, JFK conspiracy theories. So the idea of, like, the moon landing conspiracy theory, we were sort of like, oh, there's a little wink in that. So creatively, it sort of, like, sat okay with us. It wasn't even a grossly commercial commercial. Like, it literally just had the moon landing for 28 seconds, a picture of a car for a second, and the Mercedes logo for a second. So it was like, okay. Like, this is actually a life changing amount of money, and we need it. And there's nothing in this scenario that feels so gross as to make us say no. And I think that's the gut feeling part of it, right? Feeling gross. [01:03:35] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:03:36] Speaker A: We know when we feel gross. [01:03:38] Speaker B: Totally. So with that idea, that feeling. Gross. I'm real interested in your take on this, because I've heard. I use this as an example a lot when I'm talking to, with people who make their living creatively. So Chris Wren from Bridge nine Records when we were younger, he still is doing Sully's tees, that brand, and then bridge nine at the same time. So at two businesses, but he didn't draw a salary and still doesn't draw a salary from bridge nine. Even at the commercial height of that record label where they were selling all the bands were, all of the big bands were on that label. And, you know, I was a kid who, I'd gone to university and gotten like a lit degree, and then I went and got a psychology degree and then I went and, you know, I was being, I was a therapist. But at one point, I left all of that behind just to tour in hardcore bands. And to me, at that time of my life, I was like, oh, my gosh, I wish I could make my living just off of music. Like, I was just in love with the whole, the whole thing. And him and I were chatting one day and I was like, dude, I don't understand why you're grinding so hard with Sully's and taking your living from that. Why don't you just put all that energy into bridge nine? He said something that I've never, ever forgotten. He said, I don't do that because from my perspective, once your passion becomes also where you draw your paycheck, it interferes with your ability to make good choices that are based on just what you like versus what sells. And I was like, damn, what a cool way of thinking about it. And he laid out a bunch of bands. He's like, you could see this band here. Once they started making their living off of it, it changed. There was like a whole rationale behind it. Now, I'm not saying that's like a. The right or wrong perspective, but I always thought it was a really interesting perspective for yourself who has made, uh, your living off of the creative path. How do you keep what you like to do at the front of the mind and what feels good for you and keeps you from feeling, like, icky or gross at the forefront versus. Or I guess, how do you balance that versus things that make. That help you make a living? [01:05:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, obviously, like, if I didn't have to do things like make t shirts, I wouldn't. Although I have become sort of like an artist in that way as well now. There's something about sort of making t shirt designs that now is sort of an art to me, but it's not like my primary thing, right? Like, it's not like I was a kid, and I just dreamed of making t shirts. It's just sort of a necessary evil at this point, because no one buys records. And so here's the thing. I appreciate Chris's answer, but I feel like we have a tendency to read into things too much about other people's decisions. And we often make these assumptions that when a band changes, the reason that they're changing is because they want money, they're making a play, they're trying to get signed, or they did sign, and now they're trying to please the label. And while that certainly has happened, I'm not saying that that hasn't happened. I think that the majority of instances in our culture, wherever a noticeable change happened, and everyone rushed to say that it was because of the commercial considerations. I think it was just because the band was evolving and they wanted to do something new. They got better at their instruments, they heard a new band that they loved, and they wanted to do something closer to that, you know, because I'm in the privileged position of knowing so many bands and being friends with them and. And actually talking to bands while they're making a lot of these records that people then summarily dismissed. I know that most of the time, this has been very sincere. It's a sincere change. And so this assumption that we have, that everything is tied to commercial consideration, that every change, every adaptation, it's a complete falsity, in my opinion. And I feel like I don't want to play that game. I do what I want to do, and I hope it sells because I need it to. But ultimately, whenever I make changes, it's because it turned me on. I wrote a song, and it just turned me on. You know, I have a song that I wrote that when Thursday was, we've been working on new music, and everybody just sort of throws their demos into a pile. And I had this song that, in my mind, was not a Thursday song. It didn't sound like one, but it was the demo, and I liked the song enough, so I put it in the mix, and everyone in the band was like, oh, my God, this song's awesome. And I said, it doesn't sound like Thursday. And they were like, maybe that's what we need. In the end, we finished the song, and it sounds like Thursday. Nasty. But the point being is that they were willing to push the contours of what people think the band is because it turned them on. And that's what I think most bands do. So that, again, it's just like there's so many weird dichotomies that we make based on these assumptions. And I not here for that. [01:09:20] Speaker B: So talking about decisions people make, creative decisions people make. You're someone who has built some pretty significant stuff up, but also have been willing to walk away from those things. So talk to us about. You already mentioned Texas, the reason, and feel free, of course, if you want to go into that. Around the transition out of that band, I am real interested in antimatter. Like, antimatter, to me was like. I mean, it was just like getting an issue of antimatter was just something I would spend time with. Like, I'd set time aside, read it, go back to it, think about it. Like, the look, the feel, everything was fantastic. At one point, though, when antimatter seemed to me to at least be at its peak, you decided to do other things. So how did you know that was the time? [01:10:13] Speaker A: Well, here's where retrospect kicks you in the ass a little bit, because I feel like it wasn't the time, but I felt I had this weird supposition that if I started a new band while I was doing antimatter, that I would lose freedom to criticize other bands. And, you know, it's funny, because when you go back to antimatter, it's actually, like this really nice fanzine, and I'm very nice, but the reviews are scathing. Like, I really, like, I laid it in to, like, so many bands, and, like, you know, I just didn't want that to turn into a tit for tat where it just became like, oh, and what about your band? Or like, whatever. And I was just, like, in my mind, in reality, that may not have happened at all, but in my mind, that was a possibility, and it was something that I didn't want to deal with. And I just thought, you know what? I'm just going to focus on this band that I'm starting, and hopefully it will be worth something, because antimatter was my job at that point, and I was essentially quitting my job to start a band, which is the age old tale, but this job was one that I started and founded and loved. It just was a weird scenario. So, in retrospect, I don't think if I had to make that decision again, I wouldn't have made it the same way. I would have figured out a way to continue. And there was still a long list of people that I still wanted to interview and things I still wanted to do at the magazine. I really had so many ideas for it. So in that sense, I will say that coming back in 2023 has been a lot of trying to make up for lost time. And I've really been doing that because. [01:12:16] Speaker B: I want to hit on that for sure. But I do want to support what you just said. And I laughed so hard because out of all the stuff you said here, that was the one where I was like, holy shit, what a reason to end something so that you didn't lose the freedom. But something that really is funny to me is of the many zines that have been out there that have had kind of, like, harsher reviews, I remember reading the scene that went really hard on a band, and then later on, the same writer in the same zine was complaining about the review that they got that maximum rock and roll did for their band and kind of like, I think they weren't a little harsh on us here. It's like, what are you talking about? Like, just like three pages before were, like, eviscerating this band and now you're whining about maximum rock and roll wasn't nice to your band. Like, what the fuck? So I think that was a hilarious reason to not do it. But also, like, fair point, man. [01:13:15] Speaker A: It's, you know, here's the thing. Like, I'm not out to hurt anybody's feelings. And I really tried to be critical for the most part, but there were certain bands, again, going back in retrospect, I sort of wanted to write an essay about this because I think about this a lot. I really, both in antimatter and in alternative press, I was unrelentingly harsh towards earth crisis. I said the worst things I could think of and I feel a little bit bad about that so many years later. I feel like it was a little bit harsh and a little bit undeserved. I don't know what was in me at the time, but, you know, those types of things, it's just not. That's not what I want now. When I think of antimatter now, I think very much of antimatter as a place where I can put forth my ideal version of hardcore. And I'm not saying it's the only version. I'm not saying it's the version that should exist. I'm saying this is my personal ideal. And if you want to live in this version, please subscribe. [01:14:38] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, around the earth crisis thing. No commentary for me about the harshness. I was like, was and am a huge fan of antimatter. So, like, I enjoyed the. I like when people take a position. I am a very opinionated person and I like when people take a position. So no commentary on that. When I think of something, a band like Earth Crisis, first of all, I'm a huge, and have always been and remain to the state on earth crisis fan. And like anyone, I like a lot of different kinds of music. Earth crisis. I just love the story from when there are kids to adults. One of the things I'll just say, like, leave aside their musical legacy or art or what label they're on or any of those things, I'm very. My wife and I are very passionate about animal rights and veganism, and I am such a. There's just bands that have done something outside of music that is just so monumental. And I think of a band like youth of today. Like youth of today. I mean, think of how many people are vegetarian because of youth of today. Think of earth crisis. Think how many people are vegetarian or vegan, or at least how they interact with this world is different as a result. And not only the people who know about earth crisis, but the people who interacted with the people who knew about earth crisis, or the people of the kids who come from people who were in earth crisis, they did something that I think is so beyond just the songs that are on the wax. And again, I'm not like, there's no commentary, commentary on criticizing them. They're just such a. They stand out to me as being like, people coming together to do something that resonates in a way that there's no way they could have anticipated. And it's. I love talking about earth crisis, as you could tell. [01:16:20] Speaker A: I think it's a good example of something that now I'm very sort of. I don't want to say outspoken. I don't speak about it all the time, but I'm very vocal about the fact that I feel like. And this, I think, is. It's detritus from sort of Internet culture, but this idea that we are so not willing to give people the benefit of the doubt and people that we love and that we've loved for years can say one weird thing and everybody just turns it into something that it wasn't. With earth crisis specifically, I think about that lyric about you're guilty and you must be destroyed, and I remember just feeling like that just rubs me the wrong way. Now. I could have given them the benefit of doubt that maybe they're more sophisticated in some way that I'm not getting. Maybe that's just this brilliant, beautiful hyperbole, use of hyperbole. Maybe it's conceptual, maybe it's just something. But in my mind I was like, this is literal. That's bullshit. Fuck you. [01:17:33] Speaker B: Dude. I just love it. And I love that you and I are like right on the edge of 50 and we're talking about this. It's like, yeah, man, like there's just nothing like punk and hardcore. But yes, I do agree with you. I mean, that benefit of the doubt, it's what I refer to as giving people mercy. I'm like a super opinionated person. I have no problem taking a stance on things. I've very openly talked about my politics, my ideas, all of that kind of stuff. And I have this friend who falls on the other side of the other side of the political spectrum of me. And I spent a lot of my years kind of waggling my finger at him and kind of talking to him like he was a moron, you know, about things. And he's a super, super, super smart guy. And I pretty recently said, hey, man, I really appreciate you giving me mercy on, on that because you have been so steadfast with your politics. And though I disagree with them, uh, I disagree with them. You've also never been a dick about it. And in fact, in our relationship, I've been the one who's been the dick because I've kind of talked down to you and we talked about that concept of giving people mercy and the benefit of the doubt. And it's like, really depending on what side of it, of something you're on. Like you could years later be like, I still agree with that thing, but Jesus Christ, I came across like a total asshole or a total prick about it. And who's to say whether Carl Earthgrace is like, oh, that lyric so many years later is like, I'm so embarrassed by that. Or is he like, hell no, he's into it. [01:19:07] Speaker A: He's into it. But I think, again, the benefit of the doubt issue is one of these issues that I feel like has long term consequences. And what I mean by that is like, this was, this was really sort of brought out in a clear way recently when I interviewed Christina Michelle from Gouge away, and she made this comment. We were talking about that historical space between songs. Every hardcore show, if you've ever been to one in the eighties, the nineties, the two thousands, or today, you're going to find bands that between every song you're going to get that, you know, catching my breath. This next song's about, you know, and whatever this song is about, they're going to tell you. And it's a very didactic way of introducing a song. Like, I'm going to tell you exactly what this is about, but it's tradition, right? And this was a tradition that she very much was inspired by. It was the thing that inspired her to lay in a band. But the reality that we live in a culture where people are not as likely to give you the benefit of the doubt as they once were has kind of put a little bit of a muffle on her where she says, I actually feel like sometimes I just don't want to get into it because I'm afraid I'll say the wrong thing or I'll just trip on a word, and then the next thing I know, it's like everyone's talking about it and it becomes an issue. And so by not giving people the benefit of the doubt, I'm realizing now that there's this real potential that people with good and important things to say may not say them for fear of fucking it up. And we need more people to say good, important things, especially in the world and in the culture that we have now. And the only way we do that is by, like, what you're saying, giving each other a little mercy, giving each other a little grace, being able to sort of understand that, you know, there are a variety of reasons why something might sound like a slip up. You know, there was the famous 2016 this is hardcore snafu with Siv from gorilla with skin. And I was very actually happy that when I interviewed him after the interview, he said to me, thank you for bringing that up. I've been dying to talk about it, but people are scared to even ask me about it. And I don't see why. It's like, this is a person who has been talking about race relations and anti racism and has been putting himself in the front lines against nazi skinheads for 30 plus years, and he slips up, says something that sounds a little bit like something else, all with the right intention. And everybody now thinks, or started at that point, were accusing him of being a proud boy or something. And it was, you know, he was just dumbfounded. But, you know, if we can't give someone like that the benefit of the doubt, then I understand where Christina Michelle's coming from, because, you know, Sif had a decades long history. We know who he is, you know, we know what he believes. The fact that we were so willing to throw him under the bus for, you know, a mischoice of words is, you know, fucked up, honestly. [01:22:52] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm really glad you brought that up. I am. So, as someone that, like, I find my, like, I speak a lot to groups of people and it's usually in the corporate world, but I spend a ton of time in front of people and, and then I do this podcast and I do a lot of, a lot of business writing. It is insanity to expect people to be able to express themselves perfectly in every single situation. In the podcast. We can edit it writing. I can edit myself. When I'm live in front of a group of people and I'm speaking, I'm usually speaking for like, you know, let's say 30 minutes or an hour or even a whole day if I'm leading a workshop. So I've got a lot of time and space to manage things. Plus I'm super experienced at doing it. We are talking a hardcore show where there are people flying all over you and you are in the middle of just the shit. You know, you're in the middle of the moment. And also you're not a professional speaker. You know, like Steve, the tattoo artist who is got 20 some years of being part of a scene, but also being a person who, as you said, like, puts himself right on the front line of that stuff and has a history. The reaction to that, the level, like, I was dismayed, I was angry, I was offended that this guy is being attacked like this. But something that I thought was real interesting was how many people stood up for him and kind of stood their ground. He misspoke. That was it. He just misspoke, and that's it. And I think you can trust that. But it was the fact that he was so known and he still, people went in on him. Someone two degrees off of that level of acclaim would have been eviscerated and totally destroyed. Someone 500% off of that would be a person. Non gratitude. You'd never hear from him again. And this isn't just punk, it's, I'd say, like, kind of popular culture now. I don't think that's going to go away at all. But what I do think is the daringness and willingness to say, like, oh, fuck it, whatever. Like, I'm not even going to pay attention to the Internet and I'm just going to keep going. I don't think there's a corrective measure of us saying like, oh, everyone should stop being like that because I just think that's it. But the amount of attention we give to that narrative is where I think people need to be put in their push. It's like, yeah, just of course the Internet's going to Internet. That's just it. That's what it's going to do. Don't look at the comments. Put something out there. Don't look at the comments. Don't apologize. Don't be in that space if you need to. If you did misspeak, clarify and then keep moving. But don't get stuck into it because otherwise, unless you're someone of a certain status, you will be completely eviscerated and it will totally destroy people's creative process. And I think that is just an absolute horror show. Like, an absolute horror show. To lose that, for people to be looking over their shoulders at all times like that and. [01:25:47] Speaker A: Yeah, and I get that and I just feel like it's for me. I'm not even a singer, but I do. Like, last year, I think I published 227,000 words. It's like, I don't want to have to worry about that. I do things to the best of my capability, to the best of. At this point, I have some enough public speaking experience, I suppose. I was a teacher for several years, so I had to get up in front of a class every day and not fuck up in front of college students, which is very difficult. But, you know, those things. Those things were all instructive for me, and most people don't get that type of experience. [01:26:35] Speaker B: Yeah, 100%. All right, we're heading towards the end here. I want to hit on a couple things. Antimatter coming back. I don't know one person who wasn't stoked. Like, when. When that re emerged, I think there was either anyone who knew about it was stoked. I don't think there was anyone who was like, whoa, what's that? But something that I really love that. That you're doing now is not just that you're doing antimatter, that you're involved in Thursday and Thursday being, like, a legacy band who's done so much stuff, and I frankly don't think legacies or that Thursday's put out a bad record. But in both cases, you're not just coasting off what you've done. Thursday's not just coasting off what they've done. Thursday's writing new music. You're not just doing, like, antimatter re releases and then, like, a press tour about that. You're actually, like, creating new things. No, like, no negativity towards someone who's just a legacy band and they're not putting out anything new. Like, totally fine. Like, there's nothing wrong with it. I do think it's interesting, though, that you're doing two things that are a legacy, and you're full force in both of them. So tell us about that. Like, how are you, how are you taking something that's legacy but then putting new creative energy into it? [01:27:49] Speaker A: So the first thing is to never consider yourself a legacy. [01:27:54] Speaker B: Okay, I like this. Tell me more. [01:27:57] Speaker A: You know, people used to say that about Texas all the time. It was always just like, what about your legacy? And my feeling was always like, what about it? Like, that's for other people. That's not for me. You know, I will continue to do the things. I mean, I know it's weird that I keep using this term turn me on, but really, that's sort of how I think about it. I will continue to do the things that turn me on. And so when we did the reunion, people were like, what about your legacy? I was like, well, I think we're a better band now than we were in 1996. So as far as my legacy is concerned, I feel like we might even be rewriting it to be a better band. So ill take it. As far as this stuff goes. Again, I dont have any problem with. I am actually working on a second edition of the antimatter book, which was the original fanzine, and im going to be expanding and revising it, redesigning it, the whole thing. And hopefully that will come out next year also through revelation. I don't have a problem with that part. I think there is a legacy aspect to antimatter, but what turned me on is that I was through Thursday, I was touring again. I was meeting a lot of new bands. I was hanging out with kids almost half my age, and I was excited. I was like, there's a new breed of kidde that reminds me of myself at a certain age. There's a scene that's starting to resemble my favorite era of the scene. And if history is any judge, it means that they're going to go through a lot of the same obstacles and weird mental bullshit that our scene did at those times. And boy, wouldn't that be interesting to have an antimatter that existed to sort of reflect these two eras in very similar ways. And sure enough, I think the new era of antimatter, it's very much asking a lot of the same questions that I was asking in the nineties. We're still dealing with these issues of business and what's fair and what we're worth and whether or not we should be aligning with larger companies and all these questions the young kids are dealing with them right now. We're still dealing with issues of visibility and representation when it comes to other groups in the margins. We have a situation now in hardcore where I would say it's actually kind of wild now how so many bands feature women and people of color and queer people and trans people, and that didn't really exist the first time around. If you look at antimatter in the nineties, it was very cis white, straight male, and I was just the lone queer person of color, sort of like floating in the milk. But now I don't even have to try to make it diverse. I'm really just looking at who inspires me and who's doing cool shit. And somehow I'm able to get this really nice mix of people from all different walks. And that's worth documenting, that's worth talking about how some of the promises of the nineties, and the eighties for that matter, are coming into fruition now, but not without their problems. So let's discuss those as well. That's forward thinking. And hardcore to me is forward thinking. It's not traditionalist. I don't care. I'll fight with anybody about this. It's not about staying in one place musically or politically or socially or however you want to put it. There was a point in the nineties where I was arguing against moshing and stage diving because I just thought, well, the mainstream have that now. Let them have it. Let's make something new. Let's do something that's ours. That's the type of thinking that I've always had. And I think that that's what serves antimatter today as a legacy brand. That's not legacy, because really I'm just thinking about how do we talk about. And this is a term that I used a lot in the last year, how do we talk about what it means to have a hardcore future? In the nineties and eighties, we did not have a sense of what that meant because the oldest people in the scene were at best 30. So most of our conceptions of a hardcore future were. And you can read this in the interviews that I did with all the different bands at the time, the majority of those people, when they talked about a future, it was, well, I could see myself doing this for about five more years. And then I suppose I'll have to get a job and have a family and do whatever I need to do to support them. There was no sense that you could be 50 and still in a band and still doing a zine for a living, which is exactly what I'm doing. This was a hardcore future I could have never foreseen at the time. So now that hardcore is 40 years old, and that it's at a place in the culture where you can go to a show, and there's people there that are 14 years old, and people there that are 60 years old, and there's never been a time where that's been possible. Now that that exists, now that's possible, I can be that 14 year old kidde, and I can look at that 50 year old guy or that 60 year old guy, even, and say, ah, I see a future for myself in this community. How can I operate with that understanding? The understanding that I operated with in the past was, how do I do this and then burn out and die young? [01:34:07] Speaker B: Totally. 100%. All right, man. Before we get to the. What we call the crucial three, which are three scaling and difficulty questions to end off the interview. Anything that you want to talk about, anything you want to bring up, you want to explore? [01:34:24] Speaker A: I think. No, I think we've done a good range. [01:34:29] Speaker B: All right, so here's the first question. In your journey through life in the past. I don't say five ish years, but you can go further back if you want. What's something that you have learned about yourself that you didn't like and you've actively worked on to change? [01:34:48] Speaker A: Absolutely. Is losing the conviction that my personality is fixed. So that's very much about not creating a label for myself and then making actions based on that perception of myself. So, basically, in linguistics, we call it the difference between prescriptive language and descriptive language. So, you know, if we talk about descriptive language, it's Norman, let's say, is introverted. But if we talk about prescriptive language, it is basically like, Norman is introverted, therefore he will not do x, y, and z. So theres a difference between Norman is introverted, and therefore he will not do x, y, and z, versus Norman doesnt do x, y, and z. Therefore hes introverted. Its a very different meaning. And I think that I had a lot of perceptions of myself that I clung to as fixed and unchangeable. And there's a realization that I've had where I need to treat every experience and every minute as its own individual and unique opportunity. And there are times that I do things that are very decisively not introverted. I do think that I have a baseline of introversion, but it does not control me. [01:36:29] Speaker B: Heck yeah. All right, so flip side of that question. What's something that you. About yourself that you've been delighted to discover that you're quite surprised by, but you're like, yeah, I actually think that's true, and I feel good about it. [01:36:42] Speaker A: That queerness is not one small part of me, as many people like to say when they're trying to get your acceptance, but that queerness is actually injected into every single part of me, that I am an integrated whole, and that you can't just take a piece of me any which way you like. All of it is all of it, all the time. And I think that that is the most amazing sort of realization to have, because I. Compartmentalization is kind of the enemy. I always. I talk about this in a couple of essays, but I feel very strongly about this. And again, I don't know where this concept comes from. I heard it in a buddhist class, and I got obsessed with it. But this idea that the relationship between the words integrated and integrity is important and that there is no integrity without complete integration. Complete integration means no compartmentalization. You get all of me all the time, and that's what I'm interested in, and that's how I'm trying to live. [01:38:00] Speaker B: Heck, yeah. Right? Final question. And this is for people across generations. So any age, any background for anyone who is listening to this, who is in survival, which is where we started our conversation, any words that you would share with anyone at any stage of their life, in any situation, who suddenly find themselves in survival, any suggestions or thoughts about their next steps? [01:38:28] Speaker A: For me, survival is very much a mindset. I couldn't start that process by feeling either doomed or. Or lacking of what I needed to survive. I understand that when you're in a survival mode, there are practical considerations. You need money, you need housing. I've been unhoused. I get those things. Those are all very real. But at no point did I ever think that I did not have everything I needed to survive. That's the mindset that you need to have to survive. You need to believe that everything you need to survive, you already have. That could just be your brain, could be your brawn, could be whatever it is, could be combinations of multiple things. But you do have that in you. I believe everybody does. And whether or not we sort of tap into those things is a decision. So, also, there's a difference between surviving and thriving. Right. And sometimes people think if they're not thriving, that they're barely surviving. You know, in retrospect, I look back now on those years where I used to make pasta with melted peanut butter and soy milk. Like, is that was all I could afford. I mean, kind of delicious, to be honest. [01:40:12] Speaker B: It sounds pretty good, actually. [01:40:15] Speaker A: But, you know, I think that's, again, a mindset situation. It's a thing where, you know, I wasn't judging that as good or bad. I was just judging that as the reality. And I can choose to experience this reality with misgivings, or I can choose this to experience this reality with gratitude, that at least it's something. And again, it's always a mindset thing. That's what gets you through. That's what takes you to the next level. [01:40:43] Speaker B: Heck, yeah. Listen, Norman, thank you so much for your time. This was a totally awesome conversation. Anything you want to say before we sign off? [01:40:53] Speaker A: If you're interested in sort of my work, I think the majority of it is at antimatter substac.com. and I think that one of the things about antimatter that I appreciate the most is that I really aim to make it something that anyone can understand and take something away from. Whether or not you've ever listened to hardcore or nothing. [01:41:16] Speaker B: Yeah. And we'll put links in the episode bio that has all your stuff and anyone listening. Please do check out antimatters. I believe very, very worth anyone's time across whatever you listen to or whatever you're a part of to check out. And also check out Thursday. And of course, one of my faves, Texas, the reason. Uh, Norman, thank you so much and everyone. I hope you got as much out of this as I did. Um, this was not like a linear conversation of. It was like, tell us about this, tell us about that. Where we're going through the career highlights and building a career path. This is more someone that I think has been not think deeply, believe, has really shared their journey with the community for a long time and done things of substance. So I wanted to make sure that we hit all the points that I've been curious about and I think have a lot of value for everyone. So with that, we'll see you next time on one step beyond one step. [01:42:16] Speaker A: One step, one.