Breaking the Stigma: Men's Mental Health & Entrepreneurship with Ron Martinez

[00:00:00] Ron Martinez: When I've talked to friends and they've told me things, I've said, hey man, have you ever considered therapy? And because I've been going forever. [00:00:11] Ron Martinez: What? Yeah. I know some people might be afraid to say that. [00:00:19] Ron Martinez: They might think it shows weakness, but I've been doing it long enough. I know it shows strength. [00:00:24] Ron Martinez: They've ability to say, hey, I need some help. And. [00:00:31] Ron Martinez: I want it to become a more normalized conversation because I know what it's done for me. [00:00:37] Ron Martinez: It's really helped my ability to work. [00:00:40] Ron Martinez: With people and communicate with people better. [00:00:43] Ron Martinez: And be on a better level. [00:00:45] Aram: That was a clip from today's guest, Ron Martinez. This conversation is awesome. [00:00:51] Ron Martinez: I've kind of known Ron for a. [00:00:53] Aram: Long time and we'll talk a little bit about that. Ron's been someone who has been such an important part of our community for many, many years, and I've had the chance to interact with him a lot of times, really on the music side of things. And then we've started to get to know each other a bit personally over the past few years. Cool guy, done a lot. Very interesting. And this is a great conversation. But before we get to it, please rate, review and subscribe to the podcast. My name is Aram Arslanian and this is one step beyond. All right, man, here we are. Welcome to the show. [00:01:45] Ron Martinez: Thank you. [00:01:46] Aram: All right, so for the uninitiated, for those who don't know, who are you. [00:01:50] Ron Martinez: And what do you do? [00:01:52] Ron Martinez: My name is Ron Martinez. A lot of people know me as Ron conflict or Ron flicked, a nickname that I earned for years I hated, but now I embrace it. A know. Let's see. I grew up a working class Mexican. [00:02:10] Ron Martinez: Kid in South Orange County. [00:02:14] Ron Martinez: My whole life. [00:02:17] Ron Martinez: Fell in love with. [00:02:18] Ron Martinez: Music like at four years old. Been buying records since that age. [00:02:23] Ron Martinez: Discovered punk rock at 1314, joined my. [00:02:29] Ron Martinez: First punk rock band at 15. And then it was a snowball effect from there of like the bands that I was in. I would kind of be the manager, arrange the shows that we would get to. [00:02:44] Ron Martinez: As I got older and I got. [00:02:47] Ron Martinez: In a popular band, which most people know me from. Final conflict, we started booking our own shows. Years go on and I start booking shows for other bands. Time goes on and then a lot of those same bands, they start saying, look, when we play your shows, we actually get paid well, we get treated well. [00:03:09] Ron Martinez: Could you do that for us in other places? [00:03:12] Ron Martinez: The United States? And at the time I was doing a job that I wasn't really suited for and wasn't really making me happy. [00:03:21] Ron Martinez: And I just said, yeah, why not? [00:03:27] Ron Martinez: And I became a booking agent without even realizing it. [00:03:32] Ron Martinez: And so for like, the past 23. [00:03:34] Ron Martinez: Years, I've been booking tours for other bands while still playing on the side and other acts. [00:03:43] Ron Martinez: And it's my full time job now. [00:03:48] Ron Martinez: I make a joke with people and they go, what do you do for a living? And I go, I play punk rock and lose money, but I make my money by booking other punk rock bands. The Circle is complete. Yeah. And it's like I've done literally everything there is to do in the quote unquote music business. I've worked and run venues. I did security. I did sound. Every aspect of being in a band when it comes to I've been fortunate enough to be a part of it. [00:04:21] Ron Martinez: I had my own record label where. [00:04:25] Ron Martinez: I put out. [00:04:28] Ron Martinez: Pre screamo and crust bands. [00:04:31] Ron Martinez: Like, I put out a Dystopia record. I put out Thrice's first record. I've just always been like. I've always looked at myself as a human mixtape ever since I was a kid. And when I would make mixtapes for my friends in school, like, you got to hear this band minor threat. You got to hear this band Rudimentary. Peni and I would make tapes for all my friends. And so now at 57, I kind of feel like I'm a human mixtape. [00:04:59] Ron Martinez: Where the clients that I work for. [00:05:01] Ron Martinez: The bands, I'm a fan of, theirs. [00:05:05] Ron Martinez: Our whole operations is based on, do. [00:05:09] Ron Martinez: You like this band's music? Do you like them as people? Okay, let's make something happen. It's never been. [00:05:16] Ron Martinez: This band's going to be big, so. [00:05:19] Ron Martinez: We got to work with them. We got to break them before someone else does. It's never been about money has never been the driving factor. And I think that punk and hardcore, that's where we got that from. It was being in love with the music and wanting to be a part of it in any way you can. So for me, again, I'm a human mixtape. I like these bands. The crew that I have, that helps me. It's the same thing. We just want to put these bands out there and like, hey, I dig this band. You should, too. So this is just another aspect of it, of what we do. [00:05:52] Aram: I love what you just said about being a mixtape. [00:05:56] Ron Martinez: So I remember one is like the. [00:05:57] Aram: Art of the mixtape, which I think we could all go on and on about. But you do a mixtape tape because you love a band and you want to share that with other people. So if we think about what you do it's like you love all of these different kinds of bands and you. [00:06:10] Ron Martinez: Want to get that out to other people. Yeah. [00:06:16] Ron Martinez: We were talking earlier about, I brought up milestone bands. You want to be a part of making that band mean something to someone like it does to you. I've always say it's like we're fighting the good fight, you know, and it. One of the things is our clients that we work for, I get people that say, what does it take to be a band? What do you look for when you take a client on? [00:06:46] Ron Martinez: And I'm like, well, there's been plenty. [00:06:49] Ron Martinez: Of times where maybe one of the people on our team or something, or I'm like, I'm not really into the music, but I'm into these people. I'm into what they're doing and why they're doing it, so I can back this. And those are non negotiable things. I've had incidences where I've gone to check out a band because I was really into the music and then I. [00:07:15] Ron Martinez: Met them and then I really wasn't. [00:07:18] Ron Martinez: And I was just like, yeah, this isn't going to be a good fit. I can't get behind this. The vibe wasn't right. I'll have to let this go. [00:07:30] Ron Martinez: So people who listen to the show. [00:07:32] Aram: Come from a lot of different backgrounds, so anyone from, like, punk or hardcore is going to know what a booking agent does. But for those who wouldn't know, what does a booking agent do? [00:07:40] Ron Martinez: It's good that you asked that because many people confuse what I do and they'll, oh, you manage bands, right? Like, Ron's a manager here, Ron, come here. And I'm like, no, completely different thing. As a booking agent, I'm hired to handle the arrangements of a band's tour, meaning that I will deal with clubs, promoters and handle the arrangements of that show. Be it like the money, working out a contract agreement between what they're going to get paid or what they're not going to get paid. And it could be a tour of three days, it could be a tour of three months, but I'm responsible for that and that is it. I just deal with the booking of the show and the finances and the arrangements of it to what parameters the band works with. [00:08:29] Aram: So how do you know what a. [00:08:32] Ron Martinez: Band can ask for? [00:08:36] Ron Martinez: Well, it's based on popularity level or if I take on a new band that doesn't have much tour history. [00:08:47] Ron Martinez: You. [00:08:47] Ron Martinez: Have a starting point, but it really. [00:08:50] Ron Martinez: Is based on, like, maybe if a. [00:08:52] Ron Martinez: Veteran band contacts me, says we're looking for a new agent. [00:08:55] Ron Martinez: I'm like, well, what are you drawing? [00:08:57] Ron Martinez: And it's basically based on the size of venues and their numbers. You can kind of. [00:09:02] Ron Martinez: There's a, there's, there's brackets of everything. [00:09:05] Ron Martinez: Like a band that draw. A band that draws 300 people a show. What's a ticket? Like $15, $20.25? It just depends. So nothing is ever a set price. I don't really have any artists that it's like, I have some that maybe I'll say, okay, we can't do a show for less than this. But there's never, like a set price tag because it all really depends on the situation. [00:09:31] Aram: So it is kind of a constant negotiation. [00:09:34] Ron Martinez: Yeah, it is. It's a constant negotiation. [00:09:36] Aram: The reason I'm pushing on this is we talk a lot on the show about charging your worth. Know what your worth is and charge it. Because sometimes people who are like, an artist or a musician or someone who's a creative can be hesitant to charge a certain amount because they're like, well, I guess you could go to the next person. And I'm not encouraging people to be like, go out and ask for astronomical numbers, but no, know what your worth is and don't be afraid to ask about it, but also don't be afraid to negotiate. [00:10:05] Ron Martinez: Yeah. That is the exact same advice I give with people, and that's what I'm involved in. Sometimes you got to be the good coP, sometimes you got to be the bad cop. And I'm there to play the hard nosed guy or the friendly guy on behalf of the artist so they can focus on just being a band and writing music and touring and all that. And occasionally I'll have to butt heads with an artist where I'll say, look, you should be getting this much, like, based on your numbers and what you're doing and your fan base, this is what this band is making. You should be making the same. I'm not about a cash grab. I'm not about being greedy. It's about fairness. [00:10:56] Ron Martinez: And, like you said, getting paid what. [00:10:59] Ron Martinez: You'Re worth and making sure that you are. [00:11:01] Ron Martinez: And I think it's one of the. [00:11:03] Ron Martinez: Reasons why I have such good relations with promoters and stuff like that, is I'm a fair guy. [00:11:11] Ron Martinez: I'm all about fairness and not just trying to. There's agents out there that are, they. [00:11:22] Ron Martinez: Ask for, like, ridiculous amounts of money. [00:11:24] Ron Martinez: For their artists, but they don't get much work for their bands because they're. [00:11:30] Ron Martinez: Not willing to negotiate. And I've just throughout the years of doing things for my bands and then working for being on every aspect of the business, being a club promoter and dealing with agents, I've learned how to Bob and weave through stuff. But I never kid myself that I've got this all figured out. You never stop paying dues, you never stop learning. And if you convince yourself you've got it all figured out, you're hurting yourself. And I think that applies with anything in life. [00:12:04] Ron Martinez: You always be willing to learn and. [00:12:08] Ron Martinez: Not think that you've mastered everything. [00:12:10] Aram: So I'm going to push on something here, because you've said it a number of times. And it's like whenever I have someone who either works within music and is like a punk person, or even a punk person who works in just normal business, the money thing comes up a lot. And very often punks lead with like, it's not about the money. And I know because I've known each other for a number of years, we've dealt with each other. You've booked shows that I've been a part of. And it's always been so fair, so well done, really. I am going to go in assuming that you are not out there for the money, but you are out there. [00:12:44] Ron Martinez: Making a living and you have built. [00:12:47] Aram: Something that is so cool. And it matters to a lot of people, even if they don't know that it matters to them because they don't know there's a booking agency. It matters to them to see the bands or to go to a venue that they like. So around the building, a business side of it. How have you done that? And also kind of like kept to that ethical code, like the thing that matters to you. [00:13:10] Ron Martinez: Boundaries and being able. And I wish I'd figured this out in my younger years of understanding that. [00:13:22] Ron Martinez: Sometimes you have to say no to. [00:13:25] Ron Martinez: Things, that you're not going to break your code or you're not going to end and just standing with that. [00:13:34] Ron Martinez: And I think that's like what punk and hardcore taught me, was not being. [00:13:39] Ron Martinez: Afraid to just say, no, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not going to do that. [00:13:43] Ron Martinez: I'm not going there. [00:13:50] Ron Martinez: I make my money based upon what I get my bands paid. It is a commission based, percentage based. So if I get them a lot. [00:13:56] Ron Martinez: Of money, I make a lot of money. But I only make the money for. [00:14:03] Ron Martinez: What they get for performing, not their merch money, which is really what a band really. A lot of times the expenses of touring, whether they have a small crew, big crew, the money they make for performing really covers getting from show to show and paying a crew or whatever. The real money comes from their merch sales on a working band, like a regular working touring band. [00:14:29] Ron Martinez: And I'm one of the few agents that sometimes if you got two competing. [00:14:35] Ron Martinez: Clubs and they both want the show. [00:14:38] Ron Martinez: I'm more concerned about and what my artists, trust me, is like, who is. [00:14:42] Ron Martinez: Going to offer the audience the better experience of the show? And sometimes the club offering more money is not offering the experience that the. [00:14:55] Ron Martinez: Working club is going to offer. [00:14:58] Ron Martinez: And some agents will just go, yeah, but I don't make any money on the cool show. I make money on the business show. I always go for the cool show. Because our whole thing is about creating moments for the fans and for the banD. We let our artists know, hey, here's. [00:15:14] Ron Martinez: Club A is offering you 2500 to play. [00:15:19] Ron Martinez: Club B is offering you 1800. But you know what? This venue is like the scene venue. [00:15:25] Ron Martinez: This is the venue where your fan. [00:15:27] Ron Martinez: Base is going to. And I think we're going to have more people and you're going to make. [00:15:30] Ron Martinez: More money on your merch because there's. [00:15:33] Ron Martinez: Going to be more people to see. They're going to be stoked. They'll still go, see you at Club A, but there's a lot of formalities. Overpriced drinks, even water is $5. [00:15:43] Ron Martinez: Here's the cool club, and it's got. [00:15:46] Ron Martinez: The same production value. [00:15:48] Ron Martinez: I think we should go with this. [00:15:50] Ron Martinez: And my artists are always like, that's. [00:15:51] Ron Martinez: Why we hired you. And it's kind of a no no. [00:15:55] Ron Martinez: Especially when you deal with the more bigger agencies because they're like, you just penalized yourself, the possibility of making money. [00:16:01] Ron Martinez: But it's like, yeah, but it's not about me. [00:16:04] Ron Martinez: It's about the band and the fans experience. I'll take that risk. When you could end up making more money on the more fan based, community based show. [00:16:17] Ron Martinez: And I can't compromise on that. Like, yeah, I've got bills to pay. I do this for a living, but. [00:16:29] Ron Martinez: Integrity counts. And these people, they hire me for that. Because one of the things is they're like, dude, you're a veteran. You've been through this all, you know, but I always give my client the. [00:16:39] Ron Martinez: Chance to say yes or no to anything. [00:16:43] Ron Martinez: I don't 100% make the decision. [00:16:45] Ron Martinez: I have a few bands, like, negative approach. [00:16:49] Ron Martinez: Those guys don't give me. They're just like, just tell us where we're playing and what we're getting paid. [00:16:53] Ron Martinez: They 100% they're the easiest guys. [00:16:59] Ron Martinez: And you would think they would be more hardline about stuff. [00:17:02] Ron Martinez: No, they 100% trust me. And again. [00:17:10] Ron Martinez: Negative approach. Just did a show on 4 July. [00:17:13] Ron Martinez: In El Paso for a guarantee, far, far less than they would do in a regular club. [00:17:22] Ron Martinez: But it was a holiday show. It was a DIY show run by. [00:17:26] Ron Martinez: Kids in an art space. And when I confirmed it, the woman. [00:17:34] Ron Martinez: Who was booked the show, the young woman who booked the show was like, I can't believe I'm doing a negative approach show. I thought you were going to say no when I Said, look, man, we're. [00:17:43] Ron Martinez: Literally driving through your town and you. [00:17:45] Ron Martinez: Want to do a show on a holiday, which is. Most shows don't happen on this day. [00:17:49] Ron Martinez: I'm grateful. [00:17:50] Ron Martinez: And then the bands, all the bands that played, when I saw them in LA, they were like, it was such an awesome show. Those kids were so cool. There was a fireworks show after the gig and it's things like that. [00:18:04] Ron Martinez: I'm like, yeah, this is why I do it. [00:18:07] Ron Martinez: I taught that promoter how to do. [00:18:09] Ron Martinez: A deal sheet and like said, this is promoter profit. [00:18:13] Ron Martinez: You need to keep that money. If you want to give that to all the bands, that's fine, but you really should. [00:18:18] Ron Martinez: And put a little kitty aside. [00:18:21] Ron Martinez: If you don't keep the money to spend yourself, keep it for future shows so you can do a show. And if you lose money, it's okay. [00:18:27] Ron Martinez: Because you got money from the kitty. I want to create the next DIY. [00:18:34] Ron Martinez: Kid to do shows that ends up. [00:18:36] Ron Martinez: Becoming the next golden voice or takes. [00:18:40] Ron Martinez: What they did doing shows and starts a record label that becomes the next bridge Nine, the next touch, and go the next whatever it's all about. This is why I do it. It's great to be able to get a phone call from a festival and says, hey, Ron, we want X Band play. We're going to pay them X amount. [00:18:58] Ron Martinez: Of money and go, done. [00:19:00] Ron Martinez: Hang up and go, wow, I just made X percent. Those are cool, too. But that's not why I didn't. [00:19:09] Ron Martinez: I didn't go, man, I hope one day I can put a band on. [00:19:14] Ron Martinez: Riot Fest or the Warp tour or something like that. [00:19:18] Ron Martinez: I just wanted to keep feeding into. [00:19:23] Ron Martinez: This thing that means so much to us. [00:19:27] Ron Martinez: That's my contribution to it. [00:19:30] Aram: Okay, I got to push a little further, man, because I love. And this is why I was super psyched that you'd come on. So coming up in punk, and remember, you know, I grew up in Calgary and both my parents were immigrants. I have kind of an exotic name. So, like, in our neighborhood, I stuck out a lot, and I got a ton of fights when I was a kid. I was like an outsider basically from the start. We'd moved from Montreal to Calgary, so I was like, new to the city, really had a rough go of it when I was young. [00:20:01] Ron Martinez: Found skateboarding, found punk, and I felt. [00:20:04] Aram: Like I stepped into a world. [00:20:05] Ron Martinez: I was like, all right, we're doing this thing together. [00:20:10] Aram: Like, we're here for each other. We've got codes like morals, ethics, all of those things. [00:20:15] Ron Martinez: And that's not. [00:20:16] Aram: Not true, but it's also not a blanket statement. So when I think about that, just even in my own musical run, there's times where I'll just take keep to myself. There's times where I'm like, oh, man, I was stuck to my code there. And other times where I'm like, I acted like a fucker there. I was just like a dummy. Why did I do that? And then if I extrapolate that out, like playing in bands with people where you're like, yeah, that was really bad, what happened? Or where you're like, damn, I'm super proud to play in a band with you. You're great. You really held the line for all of us, and people can help you make good choices, but then you extrapolate out, then you've got your record label, then you've got your booking agent, then you've got your manager. There's a lot of X Factors in. [00:20:58] Ron Martinez: Having people operate on a kind of. [00:21:04] Aram: Generally assumed ethical code. So being a guy that came up in this scene and came up with a very certain specific set of generally assumed, we're all playing on the same playing field, error ethically, but also knowing you're going to bump up against people who aren't. And I'm not saying they're good people or bad people, because, myself included, everyone can make mistakes and be a fucker sometimes and all that, how do you more often than not make good decisions and keep things going the right way for your artists? [00:21:36] Ron Martinez: Like I said, sometimes I wish I'd figured out stuff a lot earlier in life, learning to navigate through stuff. And one of the things that I've learned, I can be as petty as anybody else. I can be a gatekeeper about certain things like, oh, screw that band, they're a bunch of fakes. [00:21:59] Ron Martinez: And I make a point to make sure that my personal politics are not. [00:22:09] Ron Martinez: Interfering with my artist. [00:22:11] Ron Martinez: But if I know something or I have an opinion, I will let it. [00:22:16] Ron Martinez: Be known to my artist, but my artist will make a decision. Like, if a certain band wants to take them on tour and I might go, that band's not, they're not cool. [00:22:24] Ron Martinez: They got really bad politics. [00:22:27] Ron Martinez: They got bad personal politics. They've got bad out on the stage politics. I'll bring it. Hey, this band wants to go on tour with you, or this band wants to take you on tour. [00:22:38] Ron Martinez: But I need to tell you this. My opinion on this is I don't think it's a good look for you to be playing with this band. This is why. [00:22:49] Ron Martinez: But I won't say you're not doing it because I'm the agent. [00:22:53] Ron Martinez: And that's what says I let them. [00:22:56] Ron Martinez: Make the decision what they do. It doesn't happen all the time. [00:23:03] Ron Martinez: But it has happened where I'll say, hey. [00:23:07] Ron Martinez: This band's got a lot of ill will with people. They've burned a lot of bridges. They've said some very unpopular things in. [00:23:14] Ron Martinez: The press, or it's a known thing. [00:23:17] Ron Martinez: You need to know this. But I let the bands make a decision. And even like, I had a client. [00:23:24] Ron Martinez: That. [00:23:28] Ron Martinez: I really had no interest in working with them because the perception they. [00:23:31] Ron Martinez: Were giving of themselves online was very. [00:23:36] Ron Martinez: Childish and. [00:23:40] Ron Martinez: It was just something I didn't want to work with. [00:23:43] Ron Martinez: I was like, you know what? They can go and be them. That's just not something. [00:23:46] Ron Martinez: And their manager was continually like, they. [00:23:50] Ron Martinez: Want to work with you specifically. They're a fan of your bands and. [00:23:55] Ron Martinez: They like the artists that you work with. [00:23:58] Ron Martinez: They're fans of the, you know, they want to be. And I was just, I played polite, you know, and just because my personal opinion on them at the time didn't. [00:24:05] Ron Martinez: Matter, I was also a little too busy. [00:24:08] Ron Martinez: Came full circle. The manager kept asking, are you ready to work with the band? Would you like to work with them? After shooting it down twice, they were on tour with an artist that I knew, and the artist said, hey, this band, really cool people and they're really a lot of fun to be around. [00:24:30] Ron Martinez: So I called the manager and I was like, actually, no. [00:24:34] Ron Martinez: The manager called me and said, look, this is your last chance. I've got an agent that wants to. [00:24:39] Ron Martinez: Work with them, but we want you. [00:24:43] Ron Martinez: To be the guy. So I ended up having the discussion with the manager and with the artist. [00:24:47] Ron Martinez: Just about, hey, look, if we're going. [00:24:49] Ron Martinez: To work together. [00:24:53] Ron Martinez: This behavior, I'm not really into it. [00:24:56] Ron Martinez: And it was just Internet arguing with trolls, really. We had a really good talk and. [00:25:05] Ron Martinez: The band were like, you got a. [00:25:07] Ron Martinez: Lot of valid points. [00:25:08] Ron Martinez: And they stopped. [00:25:11] Ron Martinez: Because I was telling them, why are you arguing with these trolls. You've got a manager. You're going to have a good booking agent, whether it's me or somebody else. You win. [00:25:19] Ron Martinez: I go, and a lot of these. [00:25:21] Ron Martinez: People, they're arguing with you because you want to argue back. I go, you don't need to bother with this. This is negativity that gets nowhere. And I have a great relationship with this band. [00:25:31] Ron Martinez: And it was because I spoke up. [00:25:32] Ron Martinez: And said, not really. Instead of just being like, I'm busy, I'm busy. I was honest with the people around. [00:25:37] Ron Martinez: Them, and I'm like, it's not appealing. [00:25:39] Ron Martinez: Like, this behavior isn't appealing. [00:25:40] Ron Martinez: And the band were like, no one's ever said that. [00:25:45] Ron Martinez: And I didn't think about this stuff. And we have a good relationship working here. [00:25:49] Aram: Hell yeah, man. It's that the willingness to give feedback and get feedback, it takes a lot of guts to say what you really think and be like, hey, this is bothering me. And if you want to have a good working relationship together, this matters to me. And also, just like, as a guy who has experience, here's what I think. [00:26:08] Ron Martinez: But it also takes a lot of. [00:26:10] Aram: Guts to take feedback and consider it. And really, instead of just being, well, fuck it. That's just how I want to act. [00:26:16] Ron Martinez: I love that. [00:26:17] Aram: And that's not just valuable from a band perspective, but like a work perspective. Let me ask you a question that I think I know, but I want to understand more. So how does it work? You've got the record label, you've got the band managers, and just for anyone who doesn't know, not all bands have managers, but in this case, it's like you got the record label, you got the band manager, you got the band. Where does the booking agent work fit within all of that? And who do you work with? Do you work with kind of everybody. [00:26:49] Ron Martinez: It depends on the artist, it depends on the band. [00:26:52] Ron Martinez: With some, either I prefer or, like. [00:26:56] Ron Martinez: Just deal with a manager. And the manager tells me, hey, we want to go on this tour, or, hey, we want to start looking for a tour. And everything goes from me to the manager with other ones. I have one band that the manager is just really chill and he goes, you know what? Anything that's not super important, you don't need to let me know. [00:27:18] Ron Martinez: The band will let me know, but. [00:27:19] Ron Martinez: Keep me in the loop on important stuff. So I deal day to day, usually with the artist. And, hey, we got a choice of Venue A, venue B in this city. What do you want to do instead. [00:27:32] Ron Martinez: Of maybe the other band I would. [00:27:35] Ron Martinez: Talk to the manager. So it just depends on their arrangement and with certain bands, because the dynamic of the band might be a little flighty. I'm like, I'm just going to talk to your manager. Because that way I just talk to one person and I don't have. I prefer to either be, if they have a manager, to speak to the. [00:27:54] Ron Martinez: Manager, or if the band has one. [00:27:59] Ron Martinez: Responsible person that makes sure everyone gets the message. I just like to speak to one rep for each artist if possible. It cuts down on miscommunication, misunderstanding, but at the same time, I do let the bands know. Hey, man, if any of you guys have a specific question, you can call. [00:28:19] Ron Martinez: You can email me. [00:28:21] Ron Martinez: Don't think that you can't. [00:28:23] Ron Martinez: Oh, that's Bob's job, to talk to know. I can't speak to they. [00:28:28] Ron Martinez: They know they can reach know. [00:28:31] Aram: So you said earlier on, like, you're talking about that negative approach show. And for those of you who don't know, negative approach is a ferocious band from our scene that is beyond legendary, like old, old band that's come back. [00:28:44] Ron Martinez: And I'd say is very welcome, very. [00:28:47] Aram: Welcome to be back. We all love negative approach, but you're talking about the promoter in Texas, like young kid figuring it out and how you showed that person how to do things. You said, yeah. And so this person was kind of like new to promoting. I was showing some stuff about, this is how you do this. This is money you should be keeping for yourself so you can reinvest it. [00:29:09] Ron Martinez: Okay? [00:29:10] Aram: That's what we do. [00:29:10] Ron Martinez: That's what punks do across your industry. [00:29:15] Aram: Is there, from your perspective? I know you can't speak for everyone. Do you see, is there space for new people? People who are just figuring it out? Is it welcoming or is it kind of like, no, this is our thing and you got to kind of push your way in. [00:29:29] Ron Martinez: I don't feel that there's a definite shortage of booking agents and especially, like, punk, hardcore minded agents. A lot of the guys out there, even some of the big names that are dealing with some of the cool bands and some of the best ones. [00:29:49] Ron Martinez: At what they do, do come from this community. [00:29:56] Ron Martinez: Because we have the working knowledge of every aspect of being in a band and touring and being fans. I think that fans make the best agents because they get the artist, they get know, so it saves time. And some of the bigger names, like Nick Storch and Tim Bohr are two very big agents in our scene. And they come from the punk and hardcore community and they're still big fans. You still see them at their artist shows getting know. [00:30:29] Ron Martinez: And I think that that's not a. [00:30:33] Ron Martinez: Necessary component because I've met booking agents that went to college and took music business and this is what they do. [00:30:41] Ron Martinez: That's fine, but I think there's something. [00:30:44] Ron Martinez: To be said for people who have. [00:30:46] Ron Martinez: A passion and fell into this. I didn't think I was going to. [00:30:50] Ron Martinez: Be a booking agent. I thought I was going to have a regular working job and then just at night go collect my records and sit in my room and play my. [00:30:59] Ron Martinez: First pressing of the Discord seven inches. [00:31:03] Ron Martinez: Or whatever. [00:31:06] Ron Martinez: After work. [00:31:07] Ron Martinez: But I have a punk rock job and I lucked out. I do think that it makes us better at our jobs because of the passion that we have behind it. [00:31:17] Ron Martinez: And not like we just know, we. [00:31:21] Ron Martinez: Know about what these bands like, we know we speak the same language, so we do better work for them. [00:31:27] Aram: Well, having lived it, being a fan, it's like a totally different approach. When did crawl Space become like a real thing versus just a thing that you did? [00:31:39] Ron Martinez: I think it was in 2000 when I kind of made the conscious decision, like. [00:31:48] Ron Martinez: I'm going to try this thing. [00:31:49] Ron Martinez: Being a full time booking agent. [00:31:51] Ron Martinez: I've been doing it for a while. [00:31:54] Ron Martinez: I've been setting up like I was working at. I was one of the two in house bookers at. [00:32:01] Ron Martinez: Me, and John Halpern created the recipe for like, and I would set up short tours. [00:32:10] Ron Martinez: At that time, I was just setting up like, tours. [00:32:12] Ron Martinez: Like, I could book your band starting in Arizona all the way up to Seattle. [00:32:16] Ron Martinez: That's what I would do for bands. [00:32:17] Ron Martinez: So a lot of bands would book. [00:32:20] Ron Martinez: Their whole tour and then just go, we just got to get to Arizona. And then Ron shows take over and everything's going to be great. [00:32:26] Ron Martinez: So when I made the conscious decision, like, I'm going to stop doing what. [00:32:30] Ron Martinez: I'm doing now because this job doesn't make me happy. [00:32:32] Ron Martinez: I'm going to try this. It was in 2000, and I went. [00:32:37] Ron Martinez: And bought a, bought a brand new. [00:32:41] Ron Martinez: Mac and bought a fax machine, and. [00:32:45] Ron Martinez: That'S when the landlines were still common. So I had a dedicated landline in the second bedroom of my apartment. [00:32:51] Ron Martinez: And I was like, okay, I have. [00:32:54] Ron Martinez: This band I'm responsible for booking United States. I have this band I'm responsible for. Let's see what happens. And then I was working at Chain Reaction still. [00:33:03] Ron Martinez: That was my night gig. So I had that. [00:33:05] Ron Martinez: And again, it was a snowball thing where bands started coming up to me. [00:33:10] Ron Martinez: And going when we play for you. [00:33:12] Ron Martinez: At Chain reaction, we get paid really well. [00:33:14] Ron Martinez: But when we play at the competing club, we got $300 for playing to. [00:33:20] Ron Martinez: Double the amount of people we played for you. [00:33:22] Ron Martinez: Could you book us across the United. [00:33:24] Ron Martinez: States because we want to go on a tour that was like bands like 18 Visions throw down started coming up. [00:33:29] Ron Martinez: To me and that was like a. [00:33:32] Ron Martinez: Generation of hardcore that I was so not into. It was more metal. And to me I still think of hardcore as, like I said, I'm an old guy. I think of like Discord and era like a minor threat and government issue. [00:33:47] Ron Martinez: That's the hardcore. [00:33:48] Ron Martinez: And I grew up with and agnostic front. [00:33:51] Ron Martinez: So I'm like, this is a little. [00:33:53] Ron Martinez: More on the metal side of things. [00:33:55] Ron Martinez: But these are nice know, it's like, yeah, why not? So I started working with them and. [00:34:00] Ron Martinez: Then I had all These street punk bands and these hardcore bands that I. [00:34:04] Ron Martinez: Was working with and putting them all. [00:34:07] Ron Martinez: Over the United States. [00:34:09] Ron Martinez: And then as what usually happens, these. [00:34:13] Ron Martinez: Bands started to get big. And then the bigger agents came around. [00:34:16] Ron Martinez: And said, thanks, Ron. We got it from. [00:34:21] Ron Martinez: Know. And I was. [00:34:24] Ron Martinez: Oh, Ron, that's called Pilfered. [00:34:27] Ron Martinez: You've been pilfered. Congratulations. [00:34:34] Ron Martinez: It just, it just built up from that. [00:34:39] Ron Martinez: But it was in 2000 when I. [00:34:42] Ron Martinez: Said, I'm going to call it this crawl space. Wasn't even a conscious. [00:34:48] Ron Martinez: There really was no meaning. The whole thing of calling it Crawl Space. And that started as when I was doing local shows, was I was confirming a date with a venue and they said, okay, so we'll do it as Ron Martinez Presents. And I was. [00:35:07] Ron Martinez: You? [00:35:08] Aram: Why? [00:35:09] Ron Martinez: No? And they're like, well, what do you call your production company? You got to call it something like something presents. Because that's what we do here. Because we're just hosting your show. You're the presenter. And I was looking in my room and I had this book open. It was a Time Life true crime series book. And it was the chapter about John Wayne Gacy. [00:35:34] Ron Martinez: And in this big type writer type. [00:35:39] Ron Martinez: Font on this page, it just said Crawl Space. And I just looked and I went. [00:35:43] Ron Martinez: Call it Crawl Space. [00:35:44] Ron Martinez: Crawl Space presents. There was no thought whatsoever. And then as time went, were I was doing a lot with this band from Orange county called Noe Talk, which. [00:35:59] Ron Martinez: Were kind of like power violence mixed. [00:36:01] Ron Martinez: With pre screamo hardcore, little bit of metal. [00:36:05] Ron Martinez: And we decided I was going to. [00:36:08] Ron Martinez: Hey, I'm gonna help you guys put out a. [00:36:09] Ron Martinez: Let's. [00:36:10] Ron Martinez: Let's do this. And it was me and my friend Andy Green. We were partners in it, we were like, well, what are we going to call it? Just call it Crawl Space. [00:36:16] Ron Martinez: So then it became a label as well and we did a few releases and then moving on to the booking. [00:36:25] Ron Martinez: Agency side of things, I was just. [00:36:27] Ron Martinez: Like, I'm just going to call it Crawl Space booking. [00:36:29] Ron Martinez: I'm just going to call it that already. People kind of affiliate me with that. [00:36:34] Ron Martinez: With the local shows I'm doing. [00:36:35] Ron Martinez: This is just an expansion of that. And it stayed, but it was just filling in a blank. And if I would have thought about. [00:36:44] Ron Martinez: It, I would have called it something different. [00:36:47] Ron Martinez: If I would have, like, I want something catchier and something that's easier to find on the Internet, but it is. [00:36:54] Ron Martinez: What it is, and it's become kind. [00:36:56] Ron Martinez: Of a brand name with people. Totally, man, and that's fine, but that's. [00:37:01] Ron Martinez: Where it came from was I just. [00:37:05] Ron Martinez: Happened to be reading a true kind book at the time and it's not an endorsement of Gacy. [00:37:11] Aram: Oh, really? [00:37:12] Ron Martinez: Yeah. That stuff's so cool. Stuff is cool. Like serial killers are rad. [00:37:23] Ron Martinez: It's just what it is. You're not being edgy. [00:37:26] Ron Martinez: Yeah, I'm not trying to be an edge lord in the slightest. [00:37:29] Aram: Okay. But when does it become more than. [00:37:33] Ron Martinez: You and how did you get comfortable with that? [00:37:36] Aram: Or were you fine with it right away? [00:37:39] Ron Martinez: I think it was when I realized it became a thing when people started. [00:37:43] Ron Martinez: Someone was speaking to someone and said. [00:37:47] Ron Martinez: Oh, those are just those crawl space bands. And someone told me goes, oh, this guy got really bitter because your bands got on this show and he referred to, those are just those crawl space bands that Ron books. [00:38:02] Ron Martinez: And I was like, oh, so we're a thing now? [00:38:05] Ron Martinez: We got it. People are referring to because, oh, yeah, everyone knows you're that guy that rides between punk and hardcore and grind metal. [00:38:16] Ron Martinez: And I'm like, okay, cool, I'll take it. I was just like, I guess that's cool. [00:38:23] Ron Martinez: I didn't think now, years later, like branding. Branding. But after a while, I started to. [00:38:34] Ron Martinez: Become conscious about it and realizing that. [00:38:37] Ron Martinez: It'S standards and practices and kind of. [00:38:41] Ron Martinez: Like forming the whole thing. [00:38:43] Ron Martinez: When I started to talk with other. [00:38:45] Ron Martinez: People that asked to work with me. [00:38:48] Ron Martinez: I want to work with you. [00:38:49] Ron Martinez: And I was like, here's my chance. [00:38:52] Ron Martinez: To actually kind of come up with. [00:38:54] Ron Martinez: A manifesto, so to speak. [00:38:56] Ron Martinez: A working manifesto. It's like, okay, well, what is your criteria? The bands you're working with now, why are you working with them? [00:39:04] Ron Martinez: And it was like, because I think they're great. And I would be like, cool. [00:39:09] Ron Martinez: That's what I do, too. And I was like, what does it take for a band to get your attention? And was finding like minded people. I've never farmed for people going, hey. [00:39:21] Ron Martinez: I want you to work for me. [00:39:23] Ron Martinez: But you've got it. This is how it works. [00:39:26] Ron Martinez: I want to be told. [00:39:27] Ron Martinez: I want to hear it come from someone. [00:39:29] Ron Martinez: Naturally, the people that work with Crawl Space as agents are all still active. [00:39:37] Ron Martinez: Musicians in the underground community. They still get in a van and play shows. They'll even tour, manage other bands. And I think it makes us better booking agents because of it, because we still have that shared experience and we get out there. [00:39:56] Ron Martinez: But even though that, even to this. [00:39:58] Ron Martinez: Day, I mean, I'm playing in three bands right now, but it's strictly, like a side thing. I am. I always make this clear to anybody that I'm talking to, to work with. I'm a booking agent who plays in a band. I'm not a musician who books shows because they need to understand I never want to have a band that I work with, not having a good experience. [00:40:20] Ron Martinez: On their tour and going, hey, maybe. [00:40:24] Ron Martinez: Our tour would be going better if. [00:40:25] Ron Martinez: Our agent wasn't on the road himself. [00:40:29] Ron Martinez: And it takes me three days to. [00:40:31] Ron Martinez: Get an answer from him. That's really important. [00:40:35] Aram: Huge. So there's two things I want to hit you on. I want to go back, though. Were you comfortable being, like, a boss, a leader right away, or is it something you had to get comfortable with? [00:40:48] Ron Martinez: It took me a while to get comfortable with being referred to as the Boss. [00:40:54] Ron Martinez: That took a while, and I don't. [00:40:58] Ron Martinez: Like even being referred to that. [00:41:01] Ron Martinez: We're a team. [00:41:02] Ron Martinez: These are my team members. But everyone knows I have the final say so. But everyone's allowed to challenge with their opinion. Like, I don't necessarily agree with that. [00:41:15] Ron Martinez: Okay, sell me on it. [00:41:21] Ron Martinez: I've always naturally been a leader, I think, because, again, I was the mixtape kid. I was the kid that my little crew of punk rock friends in school. I got them into every band that was cool. I was the one that got the seven inch or got a copy of the thing on tape. You got to hear this. [00:41:38] Ron Martinez: You got to hear this band called Urban Waste. [00:41:40] Ron Martinez: Oh, my God. So, I've always naturally just been that guy. It's being told that I am like, yOu're the boss. You're this. I'm like, that makes me squirm a little bit. But, yeah, I've had to be, because. And again, it also meant that I've been in a position to make uncomfortable decisions and learning how to be okay with it. [00:42:10] Ron Martinez: And then I think that's where boundaries come in and being able to say, I'm not going to do that, I'm not going to. [00:42:18] Ron Martinez: And realizing you're not always going to make people happy and being comfortable with that because. [00:42:26] Ron Martinez: I made a decision, I. [00:42:29] Ron Martinez: Think that our society has been on its path. I'm going to get on Lieutenant of being broken. [00:42:36] Ron Martinez: And the pandemic had a lot to do with it. [00:42:38] Ron Martinez: It broke everyone's brains. [00:42:40] Ron Martinez: But during the pandemic, while I wasn't. [00:42:43] Ron Martinez: Working, I wasn't making money, and I. [00:42:46] Ron Martinez: Was freaking out and going, I was. [00:42:49] Ron Martinez: Like, I'm going to use this downtime to reassess what I'm doing and how I do it. [00:42:55] Ron Martinez: And one of the things that I. [00:42:56] Ron Martinez: Had decided was I was not going to work with anyone, whether it would be an artist or with a promoter that made me roll my eyes with the caller ID on the phone or when the email came out, this guy. [00:43:12] Ron Martinez: I was like, you know what it was like? [00:43:15] Aram: I was like, life's too short. [00:43:16] Ron Martinez: Like, we got this pandemic and we don't know how it's starting, but it's killing people. [00:43:22] Ron Martinez: I could get this thing and die. And I was just like, if we. [00:43:26] Ron Martinez: Make it through this, whether it's, at the time, it was like, oh, three months tops, and we'll nail this down. [00:43:33] Ron Martinez: And I talked to my team, I said, I want your feedback on this. [00:43:38] Ron Martinez: We're not going to work with any more clients that are a headache. [00:43:40] Ron Martinez: We're not going to work with artists or promoters that are a headache. I'm like, I'm just realizing life's too short to, we don't need the, because. [00:43:51] Ron Martinez: We had a couple of artists that. [00:43:53] Ron Martinez: Were being very difficult to work with. [00:43:57] Ron Martinez: And was like, we always said, it's easy to say I'm not a slave to the dollar, but you're making yourself. [00:44:03] Ron Martinez: A slave when you're making money with. [00:44:06] Ron Martinez: These people that you don't necessarily like. I go, I don't want to do this anymore. [00:44:10] Ron Martinez: I go, so if we have a. [00:44:11] Ron Martinez: Client that ends up becoming a problem. [00:44:13] Ron Martinez: They'Re obviously not happy and they're making us unhappy. [00:44:16] Ron Martinez: It's time to reassess everything. And we've stuck with that ever since things got rolling. We parted ways and it was like. [00:44:25] Ron Martinez: Hey, look, you're not happy, we're not happy. [00:44:29] Ron Martinez: It's time for us to part ways. [00:44:33] Ron Martinez: And. [00:44:36] Ron Martinez: It'S one of the things that I always have to remind my team. [00:44:41] Ron Martinez: Of, like, don't put yourself in position. [00:44:44] Ron Martinez: To be doing work that doesn't make you happy. Life's too short. And we got a rock and roll job, man. We have the coolest job. [00:44:51] Ron Martinez: It shouldn't be miserable. [00:44:57] Ron Martinez: We could do our job any time of the day. And that's what I got out of the pandemic. [00:45:03] Aram: All right, well, you opened up something that I'm super curious about. [00:45:07] Ron Martinez: How did you say, both professionally and. [00:45:10] Aram: Personally, how did you survive the pandemic? How did you go with over two years, I would imagine, of just not making money? How did you keep the business going, but also, how did you keep going? Because you clearly care about what you do. You love it, you're invested in it, so that side of it is not there. Plus, you play in bands, which I know was important to you, and you weren't able to do that. So both professionally. How did Crawl space get through, and. [00:45:31] Ron Martinez: How did you get through? [00:45:33] Ron Martinez: Crawl Space got through. Crawl Space got through getting grants. [00:45:41] Ron Martinez: Learning. [00:45:42] Ron Martinez: A lot about local politics to get grants and stuff like that. And I started getting side hustle jobs where I started doing a lot of analog to digital conversion for record labels and for people. I spent a little bit of money. I always had money put aside. Wasn't expecting a pandemic, but I had money put aside. I was like, hey, for the next. [00:46:10] Ron Martinez: Six months, everything's going to be fine. [00:46:13] Ron Martinez: But I got to find a side hustle. So I started doing analog to digital conversion for some labels in bands. They would send me cassettes of live recordings, and they're like, hey, we're going to put this out. So I would transfer it from a. [00:46:28] Ron Martinez: Cassette to the digital to be sent. [00:46:31] Ron Martinez: To the mastering guy. And then there was a few labels. [00:46:33] Ron Martinez: That, because I don't have many vices. [00:46:37] Ron Martinez: But one of my big Vices is my vinyl collection and spending an excessive amount of money on things like on audio file stuff. And I happened to have a really expensive turntable and an expensive cartridge on it. So I started with some of these labels. They were like, hey, we're going to reissue this band's record, and the master tapes don't exist. [00:47:03] Ron Martinez: We're going to have to source it from vinyl. [00:47:06] Ron Martinez: So either they would or I would help them find a mint copy of it. [00:47:11] Ron Martinez: I would take it from vinyl, take. [00:47:14] Ron Martinez: The analog signal, transfer it to digital files, send it to the mastering guy, and there's a couple of releases out. [00:47:19] Ron Martinez: There that, honestly, taken from vinyl, we. [00:47:24] Ron Martinez: Made it sound exactly, if not better. [00:47:27] Ron Martinez: Like a clean vinyl copy. [00:47:30] Ron Martinez: You wouldn't even notice, even to the point where some of the bands had told after the mastering got done were like, this is what it sounded like when we were in the mixing desk. It's never sounded this good. And when the record came out, I was so upset that it sounded muted and muffled. And this reminds me exactly what it sounded like. I was like, cool, awesome. [00:47:49] Ron Martinez: So I was doing some of that, but it was a lot of, like. [00:47:54] Ron Martinez: Buckling down, getting rid of things like, oh, no, satellite radio, getting rid of the cable channels, getting rid of this, and buckling down and eating a lot of ramen and pasta and beans. [00:48:09] Ron Martinez: But got through. [00:48:10] Ron Martinez: Was never late. Was never late with the bills, never late. [00:48:14] Ron Martinez: I actually ended up during the pandemic. Since I wasn't spending a lot of. [00:48:18] Ron Martinez: Money, I got caught up. I paid off a lot of bills. [00:48:21] Ron Martinez: But a lot of the time, too, was worrying, like, are we going to have live music again? [00:48:27] Ron Martinez: Are we talking with the bands that I work with? Just saying, how you doing, man? [00:48:34] Ron Martinez: Checking in with each other and encouraging. [00:48:38] Ron Martinez: Them to continue to create any way. [00:48:40] Ron Martinez: That they could, you know, it, you know, that was the one important thing. [00:48:48] Ron Martinez: To me, was trying to stay in touch with people that I was working with on a regular basis, doing Zoom, doing Zooms with friends, just to talk and get through. It was rough because there was even a few booking agents that I would communicate with. [00:49:04] Ron Martinez: And we were like, hey, man, if. [00:49:09] Ron Martinez: There'S not a vaccine or some, we can't turn this around. I'm thinking about going to get another job. And even I was going, the post office is literally across the street from my house. [00:49:21] Ron Martinez: I'm ready to go walk over there. [00:49:24] Ron Martinez: And apply and then go work. Go to work at an Amazon warehouse till the time comes. [00:49:30] Ron Martinez: And was going, like. [00:49:35] Ron Martinez: When it was still unknown. [00:49:38] Ron Martinez: And I started rebooking tours at the. [00:49:42] Ron Martinez: Tail end of 2021. And it was scary. [00:49:45] Ron Martinez: I was worried. And there were certain areas, like a. [00:49:49] Ron Martinez: Lot of my bands that were like, we want to go on tour. Don't send us to the south or Florida. We don't want to go to Florida because it's rant. We would be careful. [00:49:58] Ron Martinez: And I can remember telling my bands. [00:50:01] Ron Martinez: If you want to opt out of. [00:50:02] Ron Martinez: This tour, go ahead. [00:50:06] Ron Martinez: I don't want to make you. [00:50:07] Ron Martinez: And they were like, we want to. [00:50:08] Ron Martinez: Try and do this. We see other bands going out, our friends are going out. [00:50:17] Ron Martinez: It was a scary time, but we got through it. [00:50:19] Aram: Were you able to keep crawl space together, like the team together, or did. [00:50:23] Ron Martinez: You have to lay people off? [00:50:24] Ron Martinez: No, we kept everything together the main thing was communicating with each other. And we would do zooms and just talk. And then, hey, we would try to plan it. [00:50:36] Ron Martinez: Like, maybe in three months we'll be. [00:50:39] Ron Martinez: Able to start working. What are your bands telling you? [00:50:42] Ron Martinez: We were continually talking, continually talking. And I tried to not overestimate when. [00:50:53] Ron Martinez: It came to certain grants and things like that. I really was adamant about just taking. [00:50:59] Ron Martinez: What we needed, like, only what we. [00:51:02] Ron Martinez: Needed. [00:51:05] Ron Martinez: Because I didn't want to end up overestimating or end up owing back too know. [00:51:13] Ron Martinez: But small business loans and stuff like. [00:51:15] Ron Martinez: That were done too with the SBA, got through it and learned a lot. [00:51:22] Ron Martinez: More than anything, what I got out. [00:51:23] Ron Martinez: Of the pandemic was kind of learning to focus on inner peace and learning. [00:51:31] Ron Martinez: To be okay with situations that were beyond my control. [00:51:36] Ron Martinez: Because I'm like, you know what if. [00:51:40] Ron Martinez: A band of mine breaks down in the middle of nowhere and they're call me at two in the morning going, our van just broke down, there's a good chance I can help them through. [00:51:48] Aram: That crisis. [00:51:51] Ron Martinez: Or something, but this is. [00:51:52] Ron Martinez: Something I can't control. And someone like me when you can't is the most annoying thing. [00:51:58] Ron Martinez: It's like having a Rubik's cube and. [00:52:00] Ron Martinez: You just can't get it right. And you're like, I could do everything else, and I can't do this. And the pandemic left all of us in virtually no control. I accepted that really quick, but I was like, I've got to learn to. [00:52:13] Ron Martinez: Be okay with this and just live in the now. [00:52:18] Ron Martinez: And so I took the time to kind of come up with a recipe. [00:52:23] Ron Martinez: For functioning that I intended to carry it. [00:52:27] Ron Martinez: Once all this stuff, once the pandemic and things were lifting and we were going to be back, I was like, I want to implement a way of living and a way of working that. [00:52:36] Ron Martinez: Will apply from here on out was. [00:52:39] Ron Martinez: Really important to me, and I think it's helped. [00:52:42] Ron Martinez: Well, let's go a little deeper, because. [00:52:45] Aram: Something that you and I chatted on before we started talking is, I know for you, normalizing the conversation about mental health and the work that people being comfortable to talk about or engage in the work of being okay or getting okay, or at least finding a space. [00:53:03] Ron Martinez: To really talk about it. [00:53:06] Aram: So. [00:53:09] Ron Martinez: During the pandemic, especially in the. [00:53:12] Aram: Kind of job that I do, I. [00:53:14] Ron Martinez: Just saw people breaking down, and I was breaking down. [00:53:18] Aram: Everyone was. It was really hard. But now coming out of it, I do think there's more openness to the conversation. And I know companies are like, oh, let's talk about mental health, but it's still, like, stigmatized in our society. So, what do you want to tell us about your own journey? Like, what's important to you in this conversation? [00:53:39] Ron Martinez: It's really important to me when I'm talking to band members, clients, and just with anyone in general that I'm really open about mental health. [00:53:49] Ron Martinez: And I just say, hey, man, you. [00:53:53] Ron Martinez: Think I got it so together? One of the reasons why I might. [00:53:56] Ron Martinez: Seem so level headed is 30 years of therapy, and. [00:54:02] Ron Martinez: I bring it up as flippantly as someone might say. [00:54:06] Ron Martinez: I went and had a smoke or. [00:54:08] Ron Martinez: I went for a jog. [00:54:09] Ron Martinez: I go, oh, went for my Wednesday. I had my Wednesday therapy. [00:54:15] Ron Martinez: I got to do it. [00:54:17] Ron Martinez: And IT's really Helped me give me. [00:54:22] Ron Martinez: Tools to function in life and Was prior to going to therapy, I would always have These moments where, how do I end up in this situation? Here we are again. I'm in this same situation. I'm in this cycle. Therapy kind of helped me show, hey. [00:54:38] Ron Martinez: Dude, it's not the other people, it's you. It's you that put yourself. [00:54:45] Ron Martinez: Remember when your friend went and did this and you didn't say anything, and then you end and I was like. [00:54:50] Ron Martinez: Wow, I'm attracted to this behavior, or. [00:54:54] Ron Martinez: I'm attracted, and I was like, yeah, I got to break this. And that was, like, the building when I had that first epiphany, when my first therapist. But it's really helped me with boundaries and just being able to say, no, I'm not doing that. Hey, this is not good for me. This is not a situation I want to be in. And in my life, I really try to avoid using sound bite or terms like toxic personalities. I think that sometimes, once a certain word gets thrown into your lexicon, it becomes just a word. [00:55:46] Ron Martinez: A lot of people like, I think. [00:55:47] Ron Martinez: One thing annoys me, someone's always using the word gaslighting. I go, let's just call what it is. [00:55:51] Ron Martinez: It's lying. You're lying. Let's be direct. But, yeah, therapy is really, like, it's. [00:56:02] Ron Martinez: One of the reasons why I come. [00:56:03] Ron Martinez: Off as so together, because it really. [00:56:07] Ron Martinez: Given me building blocks of having stability and teaching me things like the importance of sleep, sleep hygiene, things like that. I didn't know one of my therapists. [00:56:24] Ron Martinez: You practice sleep hygiene, and I'm like. [00:56:27] Aram: I take a shower before I go to bed. [00:56:32] Ron Martinez: And it's like, no, this. [00:56:34] Ron Martinez: Is what sleep hygiene is. [00:56:35] Ron Martinez: And I was like, wow, man, that makes total sense. And it was like, I'm a guy. [00:56:41] Ron Martinez: That'S not into brand name things. I don't have to have the best of it. I don't need to have the most. [00:56:46] Ron Martinez: Modern iPhone, but one of the most. [00:56:48] Ron Martinez: Within the last few years, like, expensive thing I ever bought was I spent $2,000 on a mattress. Best investment I've ever made. [00:56:59] Ron Martinez: Because for me at least, it's like sleep, food, sex. [00:57:06] Ron Martinez: Most important keys to having a Good, stable life. You shouldn't skimp on those things or things that make it finding a partner and all that stuff, that it's equal important. [00:57:22] Ron Martinez: Sleep is so important, man, to the point where. [00:57:29] Ron Martinez: I realized I wasn't getting proper sleep because I'm also a coffee fanatic. [00:57:36] Ron Martinez: And I was like, why am I. [00:57:40] Ron Martinez: Not getting good sleep? [00:57:41] Ron Martinez: Oh, because I had four cups of coffee today and my anxiety levels are going nuts. So I stopped with the coffee. [00:57:49] Ron Martinez: Now I have maybe a coffee every two weeks, but my sleep is so good. [00:57:54] Ron Martinez: And I literally, for the past, I don't know, good six months since I. [00:58:03] Ron Martinez: Stopped intaking so much caffeine, I hit the bed. [00:58:06] Ron Martinez: Five minutes later, I'm out, and I. [00:58:09] Ron Martinez: Really try to get it, like 8 hours. [00:58:11] Ron Martinez: No matter what. [00:58:12] Aram: My wife and I travel with travel pillows. Like, we have specific pillows that we bring with us everywhere. That's awesome, because we invested in nice pillows so that we can do this. Anyway, sleep hygiene is like, we did a whole episode on it. We have these short versions of the podcast called Sprints, and we did a thing on sleep hygiene. My sleep was, like, our sleep was, like, horrendous six months ago. And for literally every reason, you just said for us, it wasn't a mattress, it was pillows. Game changer. And by the way, everyone, this is not just us being old. Like, it totally, totally matters. Let's go back to 30 years of therapy 30 years ago. [00:58:49] Ron Martinez: So I know, as I said earlier. [00:58:51] Aram: It'S like the conversation around mental health seems like it's like everyone's game to do it, but there's still a ton of stigma. And breaking through that stigma, I think, is one of the most important things we can do as not just a punk community, but just a global community is like, really normalize. Talking about mental health just like you talk about physical health or diet or anything else, but 30 years ago, the stigma is, like, through the roof and sharing whatever you're comfortable sharing. [00:59:18] Ron Martinez: What made you take that leap, or. [00:59:20] Aram: How did you find the guts to take that leap? [00:59:24] Ron Martinez: I realized I was on a pattern of behavior that was either gonna end. [00:59:27] Ron Martinez: Up I was gonna accidentally kill myself or someone else. LikE, I was being really careless, a. [00:59:36] Ron Martinez: Lot of, like, partying. [00:59:39] Ron Martinez: And I was. [00:59:40] Ron Martinez: Driving my roommates nuts because I was. [00:59:43] Ron Martinez: Just a lush, and it was a. [00:59:46] Ron Martinez: Lot easier to self medicate than deal with what I was going through and process it. So got to the point where one. [00:59:53] Ron Martinez: Of my roommates just said, dude, you're a handful, and this is getting old. And I was just like, you're right. And so I was just like, I need to stop this. And so. [01:00:12] Ron Martinez: I know specifically, it was right before New Year's Eve, and I went to go see the muffs at. [01:00:19] Ron Martinez: Raji's, and at that show, they gave. [01:00:23] Ron Martinez: Everybody a plastic champagne glass and gave everybody champagne. [01:00:27] Ron Martinez: When the New Year's came, we all toasted, and I took one sip of the champagne, I threw it in the. [01:00:37] Ron Martinez: Trash, and then I told my friend that I was at with the show. I said, all right, that's the last drink I'm going to have for a while. [01:00:43] Ron Martinez: Like, what? I said, that's it. That was my only drink. [01:00:47] Ron Martinez: And I go, you know what? [01:00:49] Ron Martinez: Kind of a mess right now, and. [01:00:52] Ron Martinez: I need to get on the right path. So I'm not going to drink, I'm not going to do anything, and I'm. [01:00:58] Ron Martinez: Going to go in therapy. I think I need it. [01:01:04] Ron Martinez: I sought out, this is pre Internet. I actually went through the Yellow pages and found a family counseling place. I went down there, made an appointment. [01:01:20] Ron Martinez: And told them, like, I'm just angry. [01:01:23] Ron Martinez: I was in a really bad relationship. And this other stuff I'm dealing with, they would ask all the usual questions, does alcoholism run in your family? Does this? It was the scariest thing I had ever done. I remember being in the office waiting to just do the entry interview. And I've played at Fender's ballroom in front of 600 angry skinheads before. [01:01:50] Ron Martinez: But in that office waiting room was. [01:01:54] Ron Martinez: The scariest thing I'd ever done. I was ready to leave any second. [01:02:00] Ron Martinez: But I did it. [01:02:02] Ron Martinez: And my first therapist was Bill Singleton. [01:02:06] Ron Martinez: And it took a few. [01:02:08] Ron Martinez: The first few therapy sessions were scary. [01:02:10] Ron Martinez: Because I kept feeling like, oh, he's. [01:02:14] Ron Martinez: Going to say I'm a piece of shit because I'm feeling these things. I'm a bad person. Then I realized pretty quick I was like, no, everyone has these feelings. [01:02:24] Ron Martinez: And. [01:02:27] Ron Martinez: There'S times I'd leave therapy and I'd feel physically exhausted and wrecked. [01:02:32] Ron Martinez: Another times I'd walk out light and. [01:02:35] Ron Martinez: Just felt like a whole burden was like. [01:02:38] Ron Martinez: And there was a final conflict record where he's actually thanked on it. [01:02:44] Ron Martinez: I thanked him. By name, because he really kind of like, again, I'm here because of that guy. Helped me process a lot of things. And again, it was. A lot of it was like, hey, dude, this isn't other people. [01:02:56] Ron Martinez: This is you. [01:02:57] Ron Martinez: You're just not processing this stuff right. [01:03:02] Ron Martinez: So I've always consistently, throughout the moves. [01:03:06] Ron Martinez: When I moved to Austin, Texas, and stuff, gone to therapist. I would go through periods of maybe not going to a therapist for, like. [01:03:12] Ron Martinez: Six months or a year, but within. [01:03:16] Ron Martinez: The past ten years, I've just realized that it's a real key to me. It's like, no more than doing band rehearsal. When I've talked to friends and they've told me things, I've said, hey, man, have you ever considered therapy? Because I've been going forever. [01:03:41] Ron Martinez: What? Yeah. I know some people might be afraid to say that. [01:03:48] Ron Martinez: They might think it shows weakness, but I've been doing it long enough. [01:03:52] Ron Martinez: I know it shows strength, the ability. [01:03:54] Ron Martinez: To say, hey, I need some help. And I want it to become a. [01:04:01] Ron Martinez: More normalized conversation, because I know what. [01:04:05] Ron Martinez: It'S done for me. [01:04:06] Ron Martinez: It's really helped my ability to work. [01:04:10] Ron Martinez: With people and communicate with people better. [01:04:13] Ron Martinez: And be on a better level and. [01:04:19] Ron Martinez: Just process a lot of traumatic things that have happened in my life as a kid and not carry so much. Not carry anger, because I had a. [01:04:28] Ron Martinez: Lot of anger about things and dealing with it in therapy, really, a lot. [01:04:37] Ron Martinez: Of it was just talking about it and shared experiences. [01:04:41] Ron Martinez: One of the things is realizing that not special. [01:04:44] Ron Martinez: I was dealing with a lot of things that lots of people deal with, and having someone to speak to, to tell me that, and saying, hey, this is how these people deal with it. [01:04:55] Ron Martinez: Here's some tools. And it's a functional. It's an important and functional part of my being. [01:05:06] Ron Martinez: It gives me the important coping mechanisms. That's why I'll tell some of my friends, hey, I know you think that I have it together, that I'm a real together guy, but one of the reasons is because I go to therapy, I get this poison out. [01:05:21] Aram: Can I share something with you? [01:05:23] Ron Martinez: Yeah. [01:05:24] Aram: So I was an addiction mental health therapist for about ten years, and people would always say to me, like, or, you've got it so composed. How can you listen? All this suffering all the time? You just seem so grounded. But I was, like, totally not grounded. [01:05:39] Ron Martinez: And the funny thing is, you'd think. [01:05:42] Aram: A therapist would be, like, super willing to go get therapy. But it was like, no, I just took all of this stuff, and I just pushed it down and pushed it down. And pushed it down. And a lot of the ways that I dealt with things was through working. [01:05:52] Ron Martinez: And so, like, bands. [01:05:53] Aram: Like, I'd make myself busy with bands or we'd go on tour or whatever it is. I was constantly, constantly busy and enjoying none of it. Like, depressed, upset, feeling bad. [01:06:04] Ron Martinez: And I fell into a lot of. [01:06:06] Aram: People pleasing habits because something that did make me feel good was helping people. [01:06:10] Ron Martinez: And I kind of took that bridge. [01:06:11] Aram: From helping people in a way that. [01:06:13] Ron Martinez: Was easy for me to do to helping people in a way where I. [01:06:18] Aram: Was just, like, giving and kind of always feeling like, oh, this sucks. This doesn't feel good. I feel like I'm being taken advantage of and then voicing that to people and then kind of being like, oh, you've been such a fucking Crimea river kind of thing. [01:06:32] Ron Martinez: Right? And I hit a point in my. [01:06:35] Aram: Life where I just kind of felt like, well, I guess it's just my lot in life. This is just who I'm going to be while being a therapist and not going to deal with it. I had a lot of shame and anxiety about talking to people about it because I'd gotten so much feedback in my life. I was so together, and being told you're together feels good, but it also feels bad because you're like, I guess I can't say anything about how I'm not together. [01:07:00] Ron Martinez: And then things progress in my life. [01:07:03] Aram: I take some kind of, like, personal life hits. But then I just had this really. [01:07:07] Ron Martinez: One major event, and it was a. [01:07:09] Aram: Bunch of major events that happened all at once, all within this really tight period. There's probably, like, a six month period where my whole life was turned upside down, and I came fucking crawling to a therapist, like, on my last legs, worked with this therapist named Christian monks. [01:07:24] Ron Martinez: In Vancouver for a few months and then stopped for other reasons I won't get into, and felt I had it. [01:07:34] Aram: Enough together, like, kind of, like, pushed everything down. [01:07:37] Ron Martinez: This is when I started cadence, and. [01:07:39] Aram: For about a year, things are going well. Cadence was going really well and everything, but all of this stuff that I'd started processing with this therapist that I'd suddenly cut off just. [01:07:50] Ron Martinez: I'd push it down, and it kept. [01:07:52] Aram: Coming up and up and up and up. And one night, I had this sleepless. [01:07:57] Ron Martinez: Night, and I thought, if I don't go and see this therapist again, this. [01:08:02] Aram: Is the end of me. I'm done. And I don't know what that meant. I don't know where that went, whether it's like I just stressed myself to death or whatever. It was. [01:08:10] Ron Martinez: And when I said before, I was. [01:08:13] Aram: Like crawling into that guy, this time I was like, if carry me on on the stretcher, I was finished. And I saw Christian for every week for two years straight to kind of just like piece myself back together. But at the same time, I'm running a business. I'd started a family. I was just working on being a person. And that's how that change record came. [01:08:35] Ron Martinez: Together was through him, basically. [01:08:38] Aram: He was like, you're so tied up, you're so tied up inside, you need to express yourself. And he was getting me to just. [01:08:45] Ron Martinez: Write lyrics, and they were terrible, terrible. [01:08:49] Aram: But you refine it, you go through it. And I'm such a believer in mental health stuff, but also at the same time, I could just be totally full of shit where I try and hide it because I want to be that together person. [01:09:02] Ron Martinez: And the more that I allow myself. [01:09:04] Aram: To not be that together person, the more I become that person. Because I talk to people, I can be open about stuff, I can be vulnerable about stuff, and I can express it. But it took me a long, long time. And that's why it's such an important part of the podcast and why we do talk about. [01:09:20] Ron Martinez: Yeah, and I appreciate that. [01:09:23] Ron Martinez: I actually had the exact same thing happen almost that I got out of therapy. I got so busy with work and got distanced from it when I was living in Austin. And then I had a series of events that started to make me crumble and I wasn't feeling physically well. Went into the doctors and he was very annoyed with me. That's a vibe I got from the physician. And he goes here, handing me an iPad, and he goes, I need you to answer these questions. And it was just like, are you having trouble sleeping? I'm like, what the heck is this? I'm having pain in my and weird stuff going, I mean, digestive know. [01:10:09] Ron Martinez: So I go through it and I. [01:10:13] Ron Martinez: Feel it and he comes in instantly. So he obviously was getting a live feed of my answers. And he goes, okay, Mr. Martinez, I'm going to let you know you're a bundle of nerves and you're about to have a psychotic break. [01:10:25] Ron Martinez: When's the last time you saw a therapist? [01:10:26] Ron Martinez: And I was like, I've not been. [01:10:28] Ron Martinez: A therapist in a year and a half. [01:10:30] Ron Martinez: I've been so busy with work. And he goes, yeah, we already discussed this. He goes, you're dealing with sick parents. You've been flying back to the West coast to deal with your father with cancer. You run a business, you have all these people that are responsible for you need to take care of, and you're not taking care of yourself. He said that I was giving him. [01:10:49] Ron Martinez: A vibe of unsteadiness, and he was like, we need to get you into therapy. [01:10:56] Ron Martinez: I want to give you some medication. And I got back on track, but I was having the exact same thing happen to me. Yeah. And I was taking care of everybody else, making sure my clients, making sure everyone. The tours went well and everything, but I wasn't taking care of myself, and I've made sure not to let that happen again. That me first, as far as I can't be good for my business, can't be good for my bands, if I'm. [01:11:25] Ron Martinez: Not focused on being good here for myself. [01:11:30] Aram: Do you mind if I add on to that me first piece? [01:11:33] Ron Martinez: Yeah. [01:11:36] Aram: I understand from a societal perspective, why the idea of me first has, like, a negative connotation. Because it sounds like you're being selfish. I counter that I think it's selfless to take care of yourself, of your. [01:11:47] Ron Martinez: Needs, because the less that you do. [01:11:51] Aram: That, the less you have to give to people. [01:11:53] Ron Martinez: The more that you do that, the. [01:11:54] Aram: More you have to give to people. And I'm going to give you an example that has to do with airplanes, which is ironic because there's so many planes flying over us at the beginning of a flight. The flight attendants say, if the masks come down, put yours on first before you put it on anyone else, including a kid. And it's not because flights are like, anti child or anti helping people. It's the idea that if you put someone else's mask on first, especially if they're a kid or a person who's. [01:12:23] Ron Martinez: Unable to do it, but you pass. [01:12:26] Aram: Out, that means there's less adults who are able to help with everyone else. And also a grown adult who passes out is way heavier to carry than most people anticipate. So when you're putting on your mask, what you're doing is by putting this on, I'm making sure I can help the person who couldn't get their mask on. And you're also saying, that means nobody has to take care of me because I'm going to be able to take care of myself conceptually around, like, mental health or physical health or any of those things. Putting yourself first, taking care of your boundaries, managing your health, means that nobody has to do that for you, or has to do that at a minimum, for you. And it also means you can actually take care of people more. But it feels counter to what we're told about self care or being a good person. It's like, oh, taking care of yourself first. I was so stoked when you brought that up before we talked. Mental health is like any other thing. You got to eat well, you got to exercise, you got to take care. [01:13:22] Ron Martinez: Of your mental health. Yeah, 100%. [01:13:25] Ron Martinez: And it's important to my functionality, not just for work, but also to be social and pleasant to be around. [01:13:40] Ron Martinez: It's one of the things that since. [01:13:43] Ron Martinez: That past slip where I didn't go to therapy for a while, I don't neglect any longer. And it helps me be better at my job. It helps me with coping mechanisms do even when I'm dealing with a situation. [01:13:58] Ron Martinez: That is really difficult, actually. [01:14:01] Ron Martinez: It helps me process getting stuff done. And again, taught me the importance of boundaries when I was like, this is. [01:14:11] Ron Martinez: A situation that I don't want to. [01:14:14] Ron Martinez: Be in this situation. And instead of enduring it, I'm going to communicate that, not happy, I'm not going to do this or I want to be a part of this. [01:14:24] Ron Martinez: And. [01:14:27] Ron Martinez: Also helped me become more of a tear the Band Aid off type person where when dealing with a situation that's uncomfortable, instead of avoiding it, dealing. [01:14:38] Ron Martinez: With it right away, like, let's get. [01:14:40] Ron Martinez: This done because this is the hard part. Let's talk about this situation. [01:14:44] Ron Martinez: Let's get this done because instead of. [01:14:47] Ron Martinez: Having this moments of dread and making something a lot worse than it really needs to be. [01:14:57] Aram: All right, we're heading towards the end of the interview, and I'm going to ask you what we call the crucial three. And they're going to be three increasingly difficult questions as we go along. But before we go to that, we're. [01:15:09] Ron Martinez: Going to get to in a second, man. [01:15:12] Aram: I feel like we could talk for another like 2 hours. I'm having an awesome conversation, but I do want to talk about your bands and not just final conflict, but I'll just start with like, final Conflict. Very important band for me, very important band for the West Coast. The legacy of the band is so alive today. And I remember the first time hearing your name from someone, not just as some guy that sang in a band. [01:15:36] Ron Martinez: But as like, oh, Ron, I was. [01:15:38] Aram: Talking to a guy in Vancouver who had traded records with you and was like, yeah, I got this rare press of this final conflict record from Ron, from the singer. [01:15:47] Ron Martinez: And I was know it's that like. [01:15:49] Aram: You'Re young, you're like, wow, can you just do that? Can you just hit up some person in your world who's been notable and just trade records? He was like, yes. Kind of like, yes. And he was fucking awesome. We had this great back and forth. It was amazing. And then having the chance to get to know you through the booking stuff that we did together, I always just felt like, it's weird to think, like, this is the guy whose record I was listening to when I was a little kid, and he's the guy who's booking my band or helping me do this thing. [01:16:21] Ron Martinez: It's one of the strengths of the. [01:16:22] Aram: Punk scene, but it's also one of the strengths as you, as a person. So, A, thank you for all that, and B, what do you want to tell us about your bands? [01:16:30] Ron Martinez: What are you doing now? [01:16:31] Ron Martinez: Final conflict. Still playing. We play when it's a show we. [01:16:37] Ron Martinez: Want to be a part of. Harp, one of the greatest things that. [01:16:44] Ron Martinez: Ever happened in my life was Jeff Harp asking me to join his band. Final conflict is his. [01:16:49] Ron Martinez: Know, it was his, his. [01:16:51] Ron Martinez: But it was something that when I wasn't in the band and I saw them rehearse, I was like, oh, why isn't my band this band? And it wasn't only because we were hanging out at a show together and. [01:17:03] Ron Martinez: I said, I really wish I was in your band. And he was like, what? [01:17:08] Ron Martinez: And I'm like, I really wish I was in your band. Your band is so much better than the band. And everything, the politics, everything about it is so what I'm about. The next thing I know is literally weeks later, he calls me and he. [01:17:19] Ron Martinez: Goes, well, were you serious about wanting. [01:17:22] Ron Martinez: To join my band? I'm like, yeah. [01:17:23] Ron Martinez: Why? He goes, I'm going to call you back. And then 20 minutes later he calls me back. [01:17:28] Ron Martinez: All right, yeah, kick the singer and the drummer out. [01:17:29] Ron Martinez: You're in the band now. [01:17:31] Ron Martinez: Rehearsal is going to be in a week. And that started everything. [01:17:35] Ron Martinez: Like I said, I learned how to. [01:17:37] Ron Martinez: Book shows and all that to where I am. It all began with that, with final conflict. Jeff is my big brother, even though I tower over him and we're still really tight. And when we play shows, it's genuinely not about how much are we getting paid. It's like, who's playing? Where's it going to be at? I would be at that show. [01:17:56] Ron Martinez: That's cool. Oh, yeah, let's do it. So that's how we do it. [01:18:00] Ron Martinez: It's fun. And I don't see. As long as it continues to be fun, we'll continue to play shows, go out there and do the greatest hits. We keep talking about writing new stuff. [01:18:11] Ron Martinez: And we're going to do it, but. [01:18:13] Ron Martinez: The rehearsals end up us just talking. [01:18:16] Ron Martinez: And then, oh, shoot, we should play some songs. I'm also playing in the lower class. [01:18:26] Ron Martinez: Brats, and I've been in that band for like, ten years. [01:18:29] Ron Martinez: I was supposed to fill in and I just forgot to quit. [01:18:34] Ron Martinez: And they forgot to get a new bass player. And the cool thing about being in that band is it's a complete opposite, musically, of final conflict. It's definitely more like in the punk rock street and some glam rock influences, which is great because I was way more into kiss. I was into Kiss before I was into the Sex Pistols and Black Flag. So we get to do our hard rock element in a punk rock context. And those guys, all of them, we're all best friends. We get along great. [01:19:13] Ron Martinez: And that's when we just put out. [01:19:16] Ron Martinez: A brand new album called Tales of the Wild and the Ugly and the Damned. And a lot of that record is about life changes. [01:19:26] Ron Martinez: At the time, our lead singer was. [01:19:29] Ron Martinez: Dealing with a lot of life changes and going through sobriety for the first time in his life. And the album is the Tales of the Wild, ugly and the Damned. It's a dark record lyrically, and it's a fun record musically. And then just by a whim, I. [01:19:46] Ron Martinez: Ended up joining the Angry Samoans as a replacement singer. [01:19:51] Ron Martinez: But we changed the name to angry Samoan because there's only one original member left, and that's just punk rock karaoke. And the Angry Samoans inside my brain record was like the second or third. [01:20:03] Ron Martinez: Punk record I ever bought. And so we're just a tribute band. We just go and play almost all of their songs. [01:20:11] Ron Martinez: There's a few songs that have not held up with the test of time and they shouldn't be played anymore, but they're on the record if someone wants to hear. [01:20:21] Ron Martinez: Uh, and that's just goofy. [01:20:25] Ron Martinez: So it's weird. So you can see three different aspects of me. If you see me with Final conflict, it's very political and very leftist and very anti establishment. Or if you go see me do an angry Simone show, it's like a stand up comedy routine and it's very fun and gOofy. Or if you see the lower cost brats, it's like a rock and roll punk band. [01:20:44] Ron Martinez: So I get to live all the things I love about punk and hardcore. [01:20:51] Ron Martinez: With these three different bands. [01:20:52] Aram: I love it, man. [01:20:53] Ron Martinez: Yeah. [01:20:53] Aram: And lower class brats rip, like, legit. And of course I love final conflict. Of course I love angry Simone's and angry Simone. [01:21:02] Ron Martinez: I am a huge fan ever since. [01:21:04] Aram: I was a kid. So I love that. All right, you ready for the crucial three? [01:21:07] Ron Martinez: Yes. [01:21:08] Aram: All right, so as I said before, we go to the crucial three, three questions that are going to get gradually harder, and then when we're done, the third one, we'll just do a wrap up. [01:21:16] Ron Martinez: You ready? [01:21:17] Ron Martinez: Yes. [01:21:18] Aram: Okay, first question. What's feedback that you've gotten about being a leader or a business owner, like, specific to actually leading people? What's feedback that you've gotten that you needed to improve on, that you were successful in addressing and is no longer an issue? So not something you're still working on. What's feedback you've gotten that you're like, okay, took it on, did the work. [01:21:43] Ron Martinez: And you've addressed it. Wow. [01:21:49] Ron Martinez: I have a problem with my tone of voice, which is like the vocal equivalent of resting Bitch Face. And I've had the people I work. [01:22:08] Ron Martinez: With, they've addressed it to me where. [01:22:12] Ron Martinez: They'Re like, you've got a way of coming across with people sometimes that you're. [01:22:17] Ron Martinez: Angry or your tone, and I know. [01:22:20] Ron Martinez: That'S not how you meant, but the. [01:22:21] Ron Martinez: Way you deliver it, man, it's just not good, and you need to change that. And I remember the first time that. [01:22:31] Ron Martinez: I had someone because we were in. [01:22:33] Ron Martinez: An argument, and I was just like. [01:22:36] Ron Martinez: Well, I got defensive immediately. You're just going to have to deal with it because this is how I am. [01:22:41] Ron Martinez: And then when I started hearing it from somebody who I respected, and they were like, hey, you might want to like your tone. [01:22:52] Ron Martinez: And I'm like, in my head, I was like, oh, there it is again. It's the tone. And that was something that I needed to learn to work on, on my tone with people because I've had certain. [01:23:08] Ron Martinez: People throughout my life think that didn't. [01:23:11] Ron Martinez: Know much, just knew me maybe in. [01:23:14] Ron Martinez: The moment that didn't know my background. [01:23:15] Ron Martinez: But you're originally from the East Coast. And I'm like, no, man, I'm Southern California kid. And they're like, wow, you've got a real East Coast. Like, no bullshit. Get to it. That's why I always thought you were from the East Coast. [01:23:27] Ron Martinez: I'm like, oh, that's know. [01:23:30] Ron Martinez: And I've had people like, you're very German. [01:23:33] Ron Martinez: And I'm like, really? [01:23:34] Ron Martinez: Why did you say that? Because you're just very to the point, no nonsense, but your tone. I was like, so really working on softening my tone in business and way I speak to people and being really aware of that, like, oh, you're doing that voice again, that you sound like you're mad. Even though I might have a smile. [01:23:57] Ron Martinez: On my face when I'm talking, it's important in delivering things. I remember a long time ago, a. [01:24:05] Ron Martinez: Friend of mine in this band, Monster. [01:24:07] Ron Martinez: Squad, had said something that to this day, really sticks with me because he. [01:24:17] Ron Martinez: Goes, yeah, I was telling someone about you, man. I said, yeah, Ron's the kind of. [01:24:20] Ron Martinez: Guy, he might not tell you what. [01:24:22] Ron Martinez: You want to hear, but he'll tell. [01:24:24] Ron Martinez: You what you need to hear. And I was like, really? Thanks, man. And it's always stuck with me that my honesty is delivered. [01:24:37] Ron Martinez: My honesty is delivered in the right way. But I also go, man, how many. [01:24:41] Ron Martinez: Times I was trying to give someone. [01:24:44] Ron Martinez: Positive criticism, but it just came across as shitty criticism. [01:24:48] Ron Martinez: So working on my tone with people. [01:24:51] Ron Martinez: And the way that I share it, and also, I think another problem, a failing that. [01:25:01] Ron Martinez: I recognized and I noticed. [01:25:05] Ron Martinez: And I work, was having a conversation with my bandmate, lower class brats, and. [01:25:10] Ron Martinez: He said, I got to be honest with you. [01:25:12] Ron Martinez: You have a way of saying things. [01:25:14] Ron Martinez: And you do this and it pisses me off. [01:25:16] Ron Martinez: And I said, what? [01:25:16] Ron Martinez: He goes, it's when we're, like, working. [01:25:19] Ron Martinez: Out a plan and maybe something goes. [01:25:20] Ron Martinez: Wrong, he'll say that I would go, look, man, I told you and then finish it. He goes, that whole I told you really is a bum out. And I'm like, wow. [01:25:37] Ron Martinez: And when he said that, I heard, every time I said something to that said something that someone, I told you. [01:25:46] Ron Martinez: Blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, oH, man, I'm an ass. [01:25:50] Ron Martinez: And so I genuinely worked on that. And to this day, I was having a conversation where something went wrong because. [01:25:57] Ron Martinez: An idea and instruction that I gave wasn't followed. [01:26:01] Ron Martinez: And I caught myself going, look, man, I told you. [01:26:05] Ron Martinez: And I stopped and said, I'm not. [01:26:07] Ron Martinez: Going to deliver this. [01:26:09] Ron Martinez: And I just went, well, I thought. [01:26:11] Ron Martinez: That we were going to do it when we talked. I thought we were going to approach. [01:26:15] Ron Martinez: It like this, apparently. [01:26:16] Ron Martinez: Is that not what happened? And it made the conversation go a little bit better. So I'm always looking at ways to correct myself. I think we talked about this earlier where I said, you never stop paying dues, you never stop learning. [01:26:34] Ron Martinez: And I'm going to be 58 this year, and I still don't think I. [01:26:38] Ron Martinez: Have life figured out. And I know there's room for improvement. [01:26:41] Ron Martinez: In the way I deal with people. [01:26:43] Ron Martinez: The way I handle people, always learning. And if someone to this day will tell me something that's critical, even if. [01:26:53] Ron Martinez: It hurts my feelings a bit or. [01:26:56] Ron Martinez: If it puts me in a situation to want to be defensive and have a defensive reaction. I work hard at not doing that. [01:27:04] Ron Martinez: And just taking it and going, hey. [01:27:07] Ron Martinez: Man, this is leading to being a better person again. I wish I would have figured this out a lot earlier in life. It would have saved me a lot. [01:27:17] Ron Martinez: Of time in trouble. [01:27:17] Aram: All right, here's your second question. I laugh at this one because it's also I'm admitting something about myself. Very much like you. I've been able to be on kind of multiple sides of the music thing. I've been in the band, but I've also run a record label, so I've experienced different sides of things. [01:27:33] Ron Martinez: And when I was in a band. [01:27:35] Aram: And a band that was doing well. [01:27:37] Ron Martinez: At the time, I would interact with. [01:27:39] Aram: My record label, and the guy who ran my record label in a certain way that I felt was, like, totally. [01:27:43] Ron Martinez: Fine until I started running a record. [01:27:46] Aram: Label where someone acted that exact same way to me, and I was like, oh, that's terrible. And years later called up my friend, which is Chris friend, and was like, hey, man, listen, that was not cool with me. I'm sorry. And there's times when you're in the moment, you're acting in a way where it feels okay because you don't know the other side of it, and then you're on the other side, and you learn lessons. And there are also times where maybe someone is jerking you around and you actually do have to hold your ground, and you're not wrong for doing that. And time proves that, right. So because you've been on so many. [01:28:19] Ron Martinez: Different sides of it and reflecting back over all those years, what are you. [01:28:25] Aram: Proud of yourself for how you've been and been like, yes, that was good, and I'm glad I've been that way. And what's at least something where you're like, yeah, actually reflecting on it, I had to have that kind of put in my face and change what's one on either side. [01:28:42] Ron Martinez: Fortunately for me, more of, like, I was right. And I think that's just because I've always had a good intuition, spider sense about things, and also, like, being involved. [01:28:55] Ron Martinez: In this music scene for so long. [01:28:56] Ron Martinez: I've gotten experience and interacted with so many other people that I've learned from maybe their examples. [01:29:03] Ron Martinez: I've been able to learn from other. [01:29:06] Ron Martinez: People'S mistakes as well. But I can't think of a couple of things where I was like, the same thing where you confuse what you did with your former record label. You confuse being assertive. Well, you confuse being hard nose and. [01:29:21] Ron Martinez: Assertive as being the same thing, and. [01:29:23] Ron Martinez: They'Re not, but only with time. [01:29:25] Ron Martinez: And the fact that you called Chris back years later and say, now I. [01:29:33] Ron Martinez: Understand what you were dealing with, and I apologize. [01:29:37] Ron Martinez: That's really important to do like, that. [01:29:40] Ron Martinez: Just shows who you are as a person. [01:29:43] Ron Martinez: That instead of going, that happened a. [01:29:45] Ron Martinez: Long time ago, water over Bridge. But you went back to correct that. [01:29:48] Ron Martinez: And I've had a few moments of. [01:29:51] Ron Martinez: That, and it's a couple of different. [01:29:52] Ron Martinez: Things, maybe like working on a studio. [01:29:56] Ron Martinez: Project and hiring someone that was fully capable of their job and then just over their shoulder and being a backseat driver. [01:30:04] Ron Martinez: And the end result is hearing the record and going, man, he told us. [01:30:09] Ron Martinez: Not to put the guitar that loud. [01:30:11] Ron Martinez: Or put the vocal so loud, and he was right. [01:30:14] Ron Martinez: And I should have just stayed in my lane. We should have just like, man, we gave that guy such a hard time. And what I learned from that is always making sure to work with people when it comes to the studio or anything. Work with people whose I already know. [01:30:30] Ron Martinez: Are doing good work and staying in my lane. [01:30:34] Ron Martinez: Look, I hired this guy to mix my record. I hired this guy to do this. I hired this guy to fix my fridge. [01:30:40] Ron Martinez: I'm not going to sit there and, like, I already know. [01:30:42] Ron Martinez: I've already vetted him, so I'm going to let him do his thing and. [01:30:45] Ron Martinez: Stay in my lane and just let. [01:30:47] Ron Martinez: Him do what he does. Another regret was, I think, and it all comes with being a young man in the music industry was kind of. [01:30:57] Ron Martinez: Letting. [01:31:01] Ron Martinez: I refer to as young man. [01:31:02] Ron Martinez: Shit is you get caught up in idealisms or even. Not even so much idealism. [01:31:11] Ron Martinez: It's gossip. [01:31:12] Ron Martinez: We're like, oh, we can't work with. [01:31:13] Ron Martinez: This person, or we can't work. I remember, like, final conflict. Not signing to a certain record label because we were so concerned about our. [01:31:22] Ron Martinez: Peers would think of us, even though we should have done it and there. [01:31:27] Ron Martinez: Was no other reason. Like, oh, our friends would have been. [01:31:29] Ron Martinez: Mad at us if we would have put out a record with them. It wasn't detrimental to the band ideals. [01:31:35] Ron Martinez: Or anything like that, but we knew it would upset people, so we didn't do it. Letting youth ignorance and being more caught up in what the hive thinks instead of what was right at the time. Those are definitely things, like, in moments. [01:31:53] Ron Martinez: That I look back and going, man. [01:31:57] Ron Martinez: Why did we was young man stuff. Just so concerned about the really unimportant and convincing yourself you were the smartest guy in the room when you would. I would love to go back in time and apologize to David Corey for being over his shoulder when he was mixing our record and going, you know what? When I told you it sounded better like my idea, it didn't. It didn't. And again, it comes with that youthful exuberance that you wanted. I could do anything. [01:32:34] Ron Martinez: And that's definitely one of the situations. [01:32:38] Ron Martinez: Of that where I look back, I never had any bad dealings with record labels. [01:32:43] Ron Martinez: Like, I always went in when my. [01:32:45] Ron Martinez: Eyes opened, and I was fortunate enough to deal with people that I'm like. [01:32:50] Ron Martinez: Look, their track record stands. [01:32:54] Ron Martinez: I don't have some of the horror stories that some of our peers do where they're still not getting paid and their records are readily in print, and they're not getting paid. No. I've been pretty fortunate in that sense. That's why it's always important to own your masters, and I learned that pretty quick. [01:33:13] Aram: Own your masters and also know when someone's screwing you over versus what just doesn't feel good in the moment. And you're like, I think about things where I've been, like, they're screwing us over. It's like, no, not even a hair. Are we being screwed over? We're just not getting this thing that we want. [01:33:30] Ron Martinez: But also, it's like, oh, we are. [01:33:31] Aram: Actually being screwed over. And it's because we're bad at business, and we didn't realize what we should be looking for and what we should be asking for. And I've been very lucky. I've had relatively good record label experiences, and there's stuff I look back at, and I'm so embarrassed. I'm like, I can't believe I sent that email. I can't believe I said that thing. And there's other times where I'm like, I can't believe I was so naive that I didn't have my stuff tied up enough to do proper business with this. And it's not necessarily someone was taking advantage. It's like, you have two people. A band who doesn't know how to conduct business and a label who doesn't know how to conduct business, because we're all just kids, and things get screwed up. But you don't talk about it like adults. [01:34:08] Ron Martinez: Yeah. [01:34:11] Ron Martinez: To this day, like I said, I'm 57. I have gotten over that hump of not. I'm no longer afraid to tell someone. [01:34:20] Ron Martinez: Hey, look, I don't know how this runs. I'm. [01:34:23] Ron Martinez: I'm. I'm really flying blind here. [01:34:25] Ron Martinez: I'm gonna need some help. [01:34:26] Ron Martinez: And instead of, ha, I'm Ron conflict. Dude, I'm in punk rockin'before. You were born. I got this figured out. I've learned to know. I don't have this all figured out, and I'm going to need some help on this. [01:34:40] Ron Martinez: You fill me in. [01:34:42] Ron Martinez: Yeah. I've learned to not be so full of myself. [01:34:44] Ron Martinez: I think being self aware is very important. Oh, yeah. [01:34:50] Aram: All right, last question. There's always some version of the three best at the end. Usually I ask, what are your three favorite records from this thing or that thing? I'm going to do a different thing with you, because you've been around and you've seen a lot, so. Have you ever heard of a photo book called the Unheard Music? [01:35:06] Ron Martinez: Yes. [01:35:07] Aram: Okay. And so there's this. Aaron Cometbust did a little. It's not his book, but he did a little intro to it, talking about this box of demo tapes that he had, of these bands that nobody has heard of, because they didn't get past being a demo band or a local band. But it's like those bands, there was something about them, and it's like a shame. It's like the unheard music, that they're, like the best band in the world, or the best band of the style, but nobody knows who they are. So what are three demos from anywhere in North America, but actually not even North America, let's say, of the world that you've had bands that nobody knows about. But you can say these three bands were special. [01:35:47] Ron Martinez: There was a band. They sent their demo to Jeff from Final Conflict. They were from Canada, called Falling Bodies. And it was like hearing that demo was like the very first time I. [01:36:01] Ron Martinez: Heard discharge where it was just like. [01:36:05] Ron Martinez: What the hell is this? Oh, my God. They've just taken it to another level. It was chaotic, and it literally sounded. [01:36:14] Ron Martinez: Like they were running around in the. [01:36:17] Ron Martinez: Room while they were playing and just kicking over anything. And it was this very deep beat, aggressive, primal, real stuff. And to this day, I've not heard anything as cool as that demo. [01:36:33] Ron Martinez: I lost my copy of it. [01:36:34] Ron Martinez: The tape got eaten. [01:36:36] Ron Martinez: I've looked around, and I know that. [01:36:38] Ron Martinez: They had changed their name to something else, but the band was called Falling bodies. [01:36:42] Aram: When was this? [01:36:43] Ron Martinez: God, 19, 80, 86, maybe. [01:36:48] Ron Martinez: And that was one of those demos that was like that band. [01:36:55] Ron Martinez: And maybe they mutated in something that became really good. [01:36:59] Ron Martinez: There's certain bands out there that just have this moment in time that sometimes they only did one good thing because it was just that. But falling bodies demo was one of them. It was a demo that got another one was a demo that got released as a seven inch. But it really was a demo. It was recorded in a rehearsal room. [01:37:19] Ron Martinez: Was this British band called SAS Suaven. [01:37:23] Ron Martinez: Sophisticated question mark is what it stood for. And it was like. [01:37:28] Ron Martinez: One of those. [01:37:29] Ron Martinez: Like, twelve song, seven inch EPs. [01:37:32] Ron Martinez: And I got it from Pushead. We were visiting his house and he. [01:37:39] Ron Martinez: Had a little distro and he was like, oh. And he would just put, you need this. [01:37:43] Ron Martinez: You need this. [01:37:44] Ron Martinez: And he was like, you need this. This is amazing, this band, SAS. And it was a total, like. Even the seven inch cover looked like a demo. [01:37:53] Ron Martinez: It was poorly xeroxed sleeves and they. [01:37:58] Ron Martinez: Were folded in all these unusual ways. And I still have that seven inch. [01:38:03] Ron Martinez: And it's one of those every once. [01:38:04] Ron Martinez: In a while when someone's over and we're talking about obscure bands, I'm like, take a listen to this band. [01:38:10] Ron Martinez: And it's just primal punk rock. [01:38:14] Ron Martinez: And it's like a perfect. [01:38:15] Ron Martinez: It's like Disorder meets early antidote to urban waste, where it's just like this 45 second one. [01:38:29] Ron Martinez: No song longer than a minute, 10 seconds long blasts of energy. But it's hook. It's got like, these hooky vocals and chords. Like, you hear the song once and you don't forget it. And that's like one of those. [01:38:43] Ron Martinez: Even when I started, kind of like. [01:38:44] Ron Martinez: There was a period of time where. [01:38:46] Ron Martinez: I had to cleanse my record collection. [01:38:48] Ron Martinez: Because I needed money. And it was the thing. I got rid of Misfits Records. I kept the SAS seven inch. I sold my, like, four or five misfits seven inch. But I held onto that thing and. [01:39:00] Ron Martinez: I still have it because it was. [01:39:02] Ron Martinez: One of those things. When you heard it, it's a milestone record for me. It's like the first time I heard. [01:39:08] Ron Martinez: The Bad brains on the Let them. [01:39:10] Ron Martinez: Eat Jelly Beans compilation, and you were. [01:39:13] Ron Martinez: Like, what the heck is this? [01:39:15] Ron Martinez: It was the same thing. Like, oh, these guys are just taking hardcore punk to another level. So the SAS one is definitely a rare one. I actually looked On a discog, say. [01:39:28] Ron Martinez: It'S not as valuable as record as. [01:39:30] Ron Martinez: I thought it should be, but it's. [01:39:31] Ron Martinez: Cool because that means someone could afford to find it. Another demo. You know what? [01:39:43] Ron Martinez: I'm going to cheat. [01:39:43] Ron Martinez: The band got big, but the instead demo instead demo. Yeah. Was really good. And they were such nice guys and. [01:39:55] Ron Martinez: They stayed nice guys. But I remember they gave me the demo at Fender's ballroom. [01:40:00] Ron Martinez: They're like, hey, we're from Anaheim and. [01:40:02] Ron Martinez: This is our know. And I put it on the next. [01:40:07] Ron Martinez: Day and I was is like, this. [01:40:10] Ron Martinez: Is like our 7 seconds. [01:40:12] Ron Martinez: Like, these guys are, like, cool. And like, throughout the years of being. [01:40:17] Ron Martinez: Involved in hardcore, seeing what those guys became was one of the. [01:40:21] Ron Martinez: Where so many people were like, good. [01:40:24] Ron Martinez: Good things have happened for good people. They're the one band that has begotten. [01:40:27] Ron Martinez: Huge that we're all happy about because they deserve it. [01:40:30] Ron Martinez: And they stayed. To this day, they're still nice. Like, none of them went on to criticize the BLM movement on Facebook or anything like that. They didn't get weird in their old age. They're still really nice guys and they're still hanging out. The ones that I still see Steve all the time. But that was a demo. [01:40:50] Ron Martinez: Even though they ended up becoming somebody. [01:40:52] Ron Martinez: Big, they're big to us. They didn't get mainstream success. [01:40:58] Aram: Yeah. So first, thank you. Amazing answers. Awesome. And you just gave me two bands to try. And one of them I got to try and find, but the other one I'll check out SAs question mark, but instead I'll just say, like, instead and shout out to Rich and Steve because you guys are just the realest dudes, and I love you guys. Steve was at the show the other night at the indecision show as a fan. Like, just there to see music, and it's like, dude, you are like, we all look up to you. And he's just like, out hanging out. Which, of course, the power of punk and hardcore. Yeah, he's just out hanging out. He's not trying to get in for free. He's, like, there with everyone else, and he's just there as a fan. He's like, yeah, I'm here to see listed off these bands because he wanted to see him. He's like, oh, I had to take my kid to hockey or to whatever sport and then came back, like, just a real dude. So huge shout out to them. All right, man. We've did it. We've made it. Despite our massive air traffic as we're wrapping up, this has been an incredibly cool conversation for me. Anything you want to share with the audience as we're closing off. [01:41:59] Ron Martinez: Any last words? [01:42:01] Ron Martinez: I don't know if you want to follow me on social media. I'm only on Instagram. As Ron Conflict, the new lower Class Brats album, just came out. It's on TKO Records and our record label, Orphan Music Group. You can get it online or wherever. I'm really bad at self promotion. I. I get need to get better at this. Anybody that wants to know what bands I work with. You can go to crawlspacebooking.com. Our roster is all up on there. There's a team of us. I'm not the only one there. [01:42:35] Ron Martinez: I don't know. [01:42:36] Ron Martinez: I just appreciate having this conversation. This was awesome. [01:42:38] Ron Martinez: It's one of the coolest podcast video things I've done yet. Heck yeah, man. [01:42:43] Aram: Well, thank you so much. All right, everyone, if there's something I'm going to say. The podcast is certainly not always people from the punk scene. We like to think it's a good mix of people from all over different lifestyles, but I don't want to say my favorite episodes, but a lot of the episodes that I have the most fun with are people from the punk scene. [01:43:03] Ron Martinez: Especially when it's people that I get. [01:43:06] Aram: To know better through the podcast and I hear all sorts of different angles of their life. And this was one where I had. [01:43:11] Ron Martinez: A lot of moments where I was like, super high. [01:43:14] Aram: Like, that's so cool to be hearing about. And other points where, like, damn, like, thank you for sharing that. [01:43:18] Ron Martinez: So this was a really good and really powerful episode for me. [01:43:24] Aram: So huge shout out to you, Ron, for everything you've done and everything you continue to do. And we will see you next time. [01:43:29] Ron Martinez: On one step beyond one step. [01:43:35] Ron Martinez: One step. One step beyond world.