Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: It sticks with you, the good and the bad. And it's been an all you can eat buffet for me with speed skating. But certainly some of those negative aspects. Yeah, it takes a long time to learn to forgive yourself.
[00:00:15] Speaker B: I find it fascinating and thanks for just being so open about it. So I spend a lot of time with people who are ultra high performers, very, very, very competitive people. And that could be CEOs of companies, it could be musicians getting. I have a big background in music, but essentially people who are in a high competitive space where there's an overt amount of value based on their results.
And that psychology that you're talking about, I loved how you said it. It was like every time I stepped to the line, it was like life or death. And so working with a CEO, it's like quarter by quarter. It's like life or death or working with a musician, it's like, like show by show or more. More often, like record by record. Like, am I a good person or a bad person? Did I write it? Like, did I write a good song? And that means everyone likes me and I've got like a Runway to go on tour and all these things. And a thing that I found repeatedly is people who are in performance states where there's an audience to what they do. And that audience has the ability to like see all of the stuff they do and harshly judge it, whether it's good or bad, but know none of like the internal stuff and actually is probably largely disinterested until the biography comes out years later, you know, like that people care about. Any thoughts on.
Any thoughts on, on what I just said there about like that, that connection between like the performance state and these big shifts of up and down.
[00:01:40] Speaker A: Yeah. And that's. It makes me think this is such a great conversation, by the way. I'm like, really? I'm like, I need to be writing these notes down because my wife.
Just pick on her for a second. She was, you know, a soccer player, two time bronze medalist with Team Canada. And she's behind the Northern Super League, the, the professional women's soccer league that's coming in April of 2025, which is right around the corner.
It's, it's been an amazing journey and she just retired, so she's now in business.
But yeah, like talking about some of these lessons and, and going okay today, it feels like, you know, it feels like a heavy day. Like, how can we reset? What have we learned? How would I interact with teammates or how would I interact with myself if I was on the pitch or if I was on the ice. Like, we do have really candid conversations like that. And it's such a gift to have a built in, you know, support system that just gets it. Because, I mean, I'm useless at soccer, but I've, you know, there's so many, there's so many mirrored situations that we've lived.
She's incredibly competitive with herself, as am I. And so when I say, oh, I'm not that competitive anymore, I'm not really competitive with others. I mean, I'm not perfect. Like, don't get me wrong, I like to feel like. I like to feel like I'm moving ahead, but really, I think it's just forced us to have these really honest conversations with ourselves.
And, and that lends to.
Sometimes I think authentic is just like such a buzzword. We say it for everything. But if you're honest with yourself, you can be honest. Honest with your feedback and honest with next steps as well.
So performance, state, and yes, feeling as though it's life and death. I don't have a cure or a be all, end all, like, kind of summary answer for that. But I do think that trying to pretend like you're not competitive or that it, like that pressure doesn't exist, I don't know if that, that helps it either because sometimes it is just a bad day. Do you know what I mean? Like the, the, the rule of thirds, like, you should feel really good, and though you're just playing for a third of it, you should feel pretty comfortable for a third of it. And a third of it should sometimes be kind of crappy. And sometimes you just have to say, hey, it's just one of those days. It's just a bad race. Move on.
But I think again, that comes from like an internal, internal competitive edge. What do you think?
[00:04:15] Speaker B: You're hitting on so many, like, great points.
Part of me feels that anything you do is worth viewing as being the most important thing you could possibly be doing in that moment. So, like the way that I, So we have a family business and I, I work with a bunch of. I work with a bunch of different leaders across the globe on super important things. And they should feel that the conversation they're having is the most important thing to me at that moment. And I should be totally in that conversation. And if I stink out on that conversation, which I totally do. Like, I, I was speaking to a leader about a year year ago who was having a very strong emotional reaction to something. And I was in a rush that day. I had to like get to something. And I definitely, I said, I think you're being indulgent right now with, with how you're interacting with this. And they just. And understandably so. It was like, hey, like, I'm not going to have you diminish my feelings right now. And I was like, damn, like I stink. Like, that sucks. And afterwards I was like down in the dumps for the next two days. I'm like, I can't believe I did that. And I should carry that because my job carries a ton of responsibility and I have put myself in this role. Like I have created this company. I have stepped into this thing. Like, I owe that. I owe the person that I'm with, like my undivided attention and to not rush and to be in that space and to think about everything I say. So part of me loves the idea of treating like every race kind of like life or death. That's, that's super good. But what I, I also have experienced less so now, but I do experience are these like intense highs and terrible lows of just being like, oh, not did I just kind of rush in a conversation. But I actually am the worst human being on the planet because of doing that. And like all X, Y and Z no longer factor in. I've gotten a better hold of that. Where I'm trying to find the right balance. And I always encourage people to think about is what is the right balance. Where you can treat that thing as the most important thing in the moment because it's what you've put yourself in the position to compete to be in that space. But that the emotional hangover of it does not last more than a 12 hour period.
[00:06:30] Speaker A: Yeah, well, when you figure that out, please call me because it's easier said than done. Yeah, no, that little anecdote, I'm like, oh my gosh, we're probably the same personality type because I would be right there with you.
It's tough, it's just tough to reset.
[00:06:47] Speaker B: Though I do have a way. I'll deal with it. But wherever you want to go, because I'll talk to you about the thing I do.
[00:06:53] Speaker A: No, please. I actually very much want to hear about the thing that you're doing because I think we could have a great conversation about it. But I want to hear what you've learned.
[00:07:04] Speaker B: Are you familiar with the concept of emotional labor?
[00:07:08] Speaker A: I should be.
[00:07:09] Speaker B: I don't know, it's like a, it seems like a real internety term, like kind of like a TikTok term or something like that. It but it's actually like just old school psychology.
And all it is is the effort it takes to hold back our response to something that's emotionally provocative.
[00:07:28] Speaker A: Okay, that's.
That's a wealth of conversations right there. Yes.
[00:07:35] Speaker B: So if you think about it, everybody experiences things that are emotionally provocative all day, like from the major to the minor. So, for example, it's like, you know, again, we have like, a little one, right? Like, if our little one, like, spills like, a glass of juice on our carpet, that's like, emotionally provocative. And if someone cuts you off in traffic and is acting like an idiot on the road, that's emotionally provocative, but also is, like, failing at something or having a disappointing interaction with someone. They're all just a different scale. But emotional labor is when you're managing your reaction to it. So either you push it all the way down and do nothing with it, or you push it halfway down and then transform it into a response that would be appropriate for the moment.
[00:08:21] Speaker A: Mm.
I've done both. I have done both. Again, I've been cut off in Toronto traffic a few times. Never have had road rage until living here. That is the true story.
It's so fascinating. Yeah, that's such a great. And I wish I took a few psych classes in university and perhaps I just. I just forget, unfortunately.
But, yeah, I've had many, like, reflections like that. Like, especially when I was skating.
You are such a heightened state of being. Right. Everything is triggering for good and bad. You know, if I was going to a race and the music that was on the radio, I tended to enjoy, like, that was a good omen. Like, all right, come on, come on, come on. You know, I would be like, almost like, yep, this snowball is becoming an avalanche. It's good.
And then little things would set you off, like if. If someone, you know, if there was something so silly as, like a public skater, you know, skating in. In one of the little hockey rinks when we were competing, and they were. If. If they had asked me a question or kind of sat too close, like, I could. I could get irrationally triggered by that because I'd think, well, don't they know that this is an important day in the stranger's life? And you're, like, affecting. But it always would determined. Usually I could. I could tell how I would compete almost by how I would react to those random external stimuli. And if I was in a good way, like, if I was gonna have a good one, it. Usually nothing would bother me. It was. You know, I remember I was I was skating well at one point in time and a kid just doing that like he was, he was public skating, you know, a few meters away, not on the note big long track, but in the hockey rink. And I was putting on my skates and he came up and was like, do you want to see how high I can jump? If I was in a bad, if that was a bad day, like, I would not, no, I would not be engaging with the six year old. But I, I gave him like a good two minutes and I said, buddy, you should be so proud of yourself. Like, so I don't know if that's, that's just such a lived thing. And I'm sorry, that's not an academic response to, you know, how you so beautifully explained that. But it is true. Like, I've found myself in good places. Usually my reactions are pretty steady, Eddie. And it's the reverse when you're hanging on for dear life.
[00:10:47] Speaker B: Well, the thing about emotional labor and. Do you mind if I go a little deeper into this, please?
So think of it like you're holding a dumbbell and you're holding it straight out. Everybody can manage a certain amount of emotional labor just naturally. And so like little babies, they can't manage any emotional labor. Something happens, they cry. And then as you become a human being in the world, you know, you kind of scale up your ability to manage people saying no, not getting what you want, all of that. And then when you become adults, imagine if you could hold a dumbbell that is 25 pounds. And so if you're like a professional athlete or CEO or someone who's like the highest level you're carrying, you can carry a ton of weight because you've scaled up, you've won, you've lost, you've been, you know, people have been critical of you, all of the stuff that you could imagine.
But the idea being that when you've got this every day, you have some amount of emotional labor. But if you have a good sleep at night, and it's at sleep, the second part of the sleep cycle. So like, if you sleep for eight hours, the first four hours of sleep is all about physical recuperation, but the second four hours of sleep is all about mental recuperation. And it's where you process your emotional labor. So if you have a full sleep of like seven to eight hours, then you'll typically process almost all of the emotional labor. That means the next day you get up and you're in a good space. But if you sleep like four hours, then your Body only physically recuperates and you don't do any mental recuperation. You sleep five hours. And you only get one hour of mental recuperation because it's around that 4ish hour thing. So anytime somebody's emotional labor gets maxed out, so you go to 26 pounds or 28 pounds or whatever it is, it typically requires two full nights of sleep to be able to process that whole thing. If you go over and you get into a space where you're like really spiraling. But up until, like, if you go to, like up to kind of close to your max, it usually just requires one good night of sleep. If you get a full sleep and you can take it out maybe two nights. But if it, if you go past your max, it takes multiple nights of good sleep. But as you know, if you have something that's like really triggering, it can affect your sleep. And if it affects your sleep, then you don't mentally recuperate and you continue to spiral.
[00:12:57] Speaker A: That is so fascinating. And I, yeah, I've never had someone break down sleep. Like, I've had a sleep doctor. You know, we had a whole bunch of professionals helping us out. But that's, that's so brilliant. And to me, sleep is like the number one. That's the number one superpower. So many people will say, you know, how did you right the wrong? Or how did you find yourself grounded? And I'm like, sleep like it is.
When I was skating, you know, my coach on May 1, which is always the first day of training, would always say, you know, I just want you to improve by 1%. And you're thinking 1%? Are you kidding me? Like, here I am busting my ass 10 hours a day. Like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna improve by 25%. No, at that level, it's like truly 1%. But it's, it's those small things. It's the sleep. Like, if you're not getting good sleep, that's. Yeah, yeah, no, that's, that's, that's brilliant. And I'm going to suggest to my wife that we sleep extra far and long this weekend because I think we could probably use two nights of really good sleep.
[00:14:05] Speaker B: Yeah. Sleep is the front line of all health. It's the most important thing around, like mental, mental wellness and all that. All right? So the reason I want to get into that is that kind of like life and death thinking. Like, I actually appreciate that. But of course, I also, to my own degree, understand those amazing highs and horrendous lows that are attached to it. And that's why I find it even more fascinating that for someone who'd had this lengthy career and you're going to your second Olympics, you've got a lot on the line and you've struggled with these highs and lows. You still made the choice to do something in a time where that was a.
I don't know if I'll go so far as well. I'll let you tell me. It seemed like you were putting yourself on the firing line by doing that. So it's a very inspiring choice that you made during that because it's not just you're like, I'm gonna do this. It was like, no, I've got a whole bunch of factors and I'm gonna do it anyways.
[00:15:01] Speaker A: Thanks. It.
Yeah. I look back, I've been here for seven years in Toronto for seven years with cbc and it was a leap, you know, I retired in the right before pyeongchang. I wasn't going to make that Olympics. And I thought to myself, you know, it was a harsh conversation to have with myself, but I had to. And I thought, I have more to give the world than skating around in a circle if I'm not at my best.
So it was a little bit of a leap of faith, 100%.
But it also came from a really, well, genuine, deep rooted passion. I mean, you know, Since I was 13, 14, I kind of always had a little bit of a wherewithal. Oh, I would like to do that. I would like to, I would like to be in sport media.
It felt a bit like a pipe dream at that point because, you know, it's like, how do you get on tv?
But I think it's really been like kind of informed by my own experiences as well.
When I came out prior to Sochi, the media was really overwhelming. Really, really overwhelming. I just was ignorant enough that I, I didn't think that it would become, you know, the, the deal that it did. I was the only athlete from North America to come out.
There was a handful of other athletes from, from Europe.
Most of them did, did not want to engage with English media.
So the media storm was like very, very, very, very, very overwhelming. I was on the front page of the Globe and Mail the next day, right? My mom is like a teacher at the Calgary Catholic School Board thinking, oh my God, am I going to lose my job? Because she was marching with me, you know, in the Pride Parade. It was, it was very overwhelming. And I have always said this, you know, to every Athlete. Even though I am on the media, I've said, you know, tell your story like you don't owe us anything. I think that you can use the media to hopefully help yourself, help your sport. It's a great way to, you know, network. And I'll be blunt, like, make money if you want, if you want to brand yourself right. There is a role for the media, 100%. But it was, it was a little bit disappointing with how many people I would speak to and immediately they'd sit down and you'd go, this person does not care. Like, they don't care about my life. They're just filing a story. Right.
And so I've, I've just really appreciated that I have been given space and a lot of trust with, with Canadian Olympians. And Olympians are, you know, I don't just talk to Canadians, but that's how I've always tried to conduct my, conduct myself. Like this is someone's life, you know, and sometimes when you are just writing for a headline or a quick interview, I've always just tried to kind of lean into the soulfulness of connection more than anything.
And so because of that, it doesn't necessarily feel like I'm on the firing squad.
I'm grateful I took the risk because I did like uproot my life within a week. And I was house broke and I had just bought a condo in Calgary and then I had to figure out my life here. And it's an expensive, expensive city and everything, but it's, it's been a real passion project as well. Like, I'm grateful I get a paycheck for what I do.
[00:18:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
Do you mind if we go back to your coming out story?
[00:18:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:35] Speaker B: All right. So you made this decision, you're going to do it. How'd you come out in your personal life yet, though, with just your closest family and friends?
[00:18:44] Speaker A: Just my closest family and friends.
I had one dear teammate who changed my life forever. I mean, many of them have, but Kailyn Urban, she was really the first ally, friend, safe friend, safe teammate.
And she, she actively made space for me to have these conversations because I think that she knew, you know, something just wasn't quite, quite clicking. I kept dropping hints as to, you know, kind of the heavier conversations I was having with myself. And, and really, thankfully, she, she created that space to remind me that, you know, I was, I was loved regardless of who I wanted to love, because that was a big fear. I was just so scared that I was going to lose people. You know, I thought, God, Am I going to lose their love? Like, am I going to upset someone? You know, how are my parents going to be? And I talked to my. My. Talk to my teammate Kaylin, and I went right home, and I had to come out to my mom. You know, Like, I. Kailyn kept going, you don't have to label anything. Like, don't judge anything. It's okay, you know? And I was like, no, I've known this for way too long. Went right home. And my mom was just phenomenal. Like, she. She knew something was up.
I'm an only child, so I, I, hopefully I'm not a spoiled brat, but she was. She was, like, helping me with laundry, and.
And she just went, what's going on here? And I said, mom, I couldn't even say I'm gay. Like, I couldn't find the language. I just started weeping. And she said, honey, I. I think I know what you've wanted to say to me for a while, and. And she said, we're here to love, not judge.
And I. I've retold this story a few times, so I, I. It's sometimes a struggle for me to become emotional when I retell it, but it truly was the most beautiful, poignant thing I could have heard in that moment. And I have, you know, really lived my life as that. You know, that's kind of a North Star for how I treat people and how I treat myself now, too, because I do still struggle to love myself at times. I can love everyone around me, but then I. I won't be treating myself the way I should be.
And it. It changed my life forever. I mean, there's, like, before and after, before and after. We're here to love, not judge. And, you know, it completely reconfigured, like, everything. How I see the world, how I see myself.
It was a moment. It was a real moment. That has been a gift again, that's kept on giving.
[00:21:29] Speaker B: So when you decided to go public with it before the Olympics, again, this is like, you know, you're putting yourself out there. And I love what you said earlier. Like, how could I live with myself if I didn't? Based on how lucky I've been and how I can imagine other people are having a much different experience. Did anyone try and talk you out of it?
[00:21:49] Speaker A: No. And they couldn't have. Like. Like, it was. It was. I'm glad no one did, because it would have. It would have been really, really, really detrimental to my relationship with that person going forward. But not many people knew that I was going to do it as well.
It just became so crystal clear.
I think it was in September. It was like early. Early fall of 2013, right before the Olympics. And I just, you know, we kind of all were waiting or like, I. I had a few friends, you know, that were. That were queer overseas or in the United States at that point in time, and everyone was kind of going, what? This. This can't happen. Like, someone's got to say something. And then finally I was like, what the hell? Like, I'll say something if no one else is going to. It just almost was, like, frustrating because it was just seemed like such a preposterous topic that. That we were, you know, going to Russia and. And, yeah, that we were going to Russia with this set of, you know, laws and. And the language was very abstract, you know, propaganda. Like, how do you even define that on a molecular level for what we were protesting against? But it was so black and white. I truly, like, people have said, wow, you're so brave. I'm like, I didn't. I don't feel brave because I truly didn't have another choice. Like, I needed it. Like, I needed the oxygen. I'm breathing.
[00:23:19] Speaker B: Yeah. Would you mind unpacking the backstory? Because some of the people listen to the podcast might not understand what actually was happening in Russia at the time and what the messaging was.
[00:23:32] Speaker A: Of course. Yeah. So Putin came out and there's essentially a law that, yeah, says it's illegal to spread any kind of LGBTQ lifestyle or propaganda. And this was, I don't want to say a new law, but certainly became under a white hot spotlight in the lead up to Sochi.
There were also, you know, a lot of conversations around terrorism about potential war.
And it, you know, obviously we know what's going on in Ukraine right now, but, yes, it was. It was a very, very charged time.
You know, Obama didn't go.
I think he sent Billie Jean King as the American representative. Representative. Like, it was a very, very charged political time in. And I think at least in my 35 years, and without running the risk of sounding ignorant, it was one of the more in my face moments where I had seen the IOC kind of go sports aren't political. But it was like, no, but this is not good. This is a real.
Yeah, it was a really messy situation. And finally I just went, you know, what if an athlete needs to say it, then here we go.
[00:24:54] Speaker B: And what was the response from not just your teammates, but your fellow athletes, like at the Olympics.
[00:25:01] Speaker A: Overwhelmingly supportive, but truly still kind of that, like, why do you need to talk about this like, you're here to skate around in a circle, like, who cares who you're dating? And it was very church and state.
It was still kind of like, shut up and dribble, to be honest. And I'm not out to get anyone. I'm not out to make anyone feel like they didn't do enough. The CoC has made great strides, the Canadian Olympic Committee, in creating one team, and that really promotes inclusivity and acceptance.
There are other fantastic organizations, like you can play, I think speed skating Canada has made great strides, no pun intended, in being a more inclusive place. But it was weird. Yeah. Like, a lot of people were like, cool, we support you. But, like, why? Like, why are you talking about this? Why do you even care? And so it's. It was a really fascinating time. Like, what we saw, especially in 2020, with the murder of George Floyd, just kind of the conversations around, like, shut up and play is. Is gone. You know, like. Or shut up and dribble. Right. The WNBA led so much of that activism, and it was just really, really, really inspiring to see how the conversation had evolved. Evolved from a few years earlier because I wasn't met with too much conversation. People were supportive, but also like, what do we do here? I don't know. So. Yeah.
[00:26:33] Speaker B: Well, thank you for sharing that. It's such a. Interesting time we're in because from that. From that era where people are like, yeah, good for you. But, yeah, like, let's. Let's just get to it. As you said, there's been an increasingly intense focus on human rights, the rights of all different identities, people feeling welcome and embraced in the world, and lots of focus on racism, sexism, transphobia, ableism, all of these types of things. And there's been like, a really rich and sometimes very painful conversation about it, but it's something that at least is kind of like, really engaged a lot of parts of the world.
And here we are kind of at. You and I are speaking at an interesting time when there's just been a major election in the US where the country has demonstrated that it is trending back towards more conservative thinking. British Columbia, where I live right now, is like, by the skin of their teeth. Stay at ndp. And there's a huge push in the conservatives, and it looks like there will probably be a Conservative government. So what are your thoughts on that? That shift that we're having back towards conservative, more conservative thinking? We've had this huge, like a decade, basically, if not more of, like, really, like, big Big progressive thinking and suddenly we have this switch. So I'm fascinated in your thoughts on it.
[00:27:56] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a, it is a, it is a very, very rich conversation. Let's just say that, you know, and I think progress can go backwards. I think we can take steps back. I very much just hope that we have gotten to a place where the athlete is at the center of it all. You know, I think at all levels, whether it be city or provincial or national or international, at the Olympic level, Paralympic level, the systems in place for sport need to have the athlete and their experience as the starting point.
And I think for far too long that has not been the case. I don't think that we have seen the progress in sport that we should. You know, honestly, I think Title 9, what was that, 1970? 79, 77, sorry, late 70s. Title IX was one of the biggest changes in sport as we see it and as we, you know, consume it in North America and not, not that much has changed in, in 50 years.
So I very much just hope going forward that it's, you know, the athletes experience is always kind of what we're building around because, you know, it's great to win medals. And we kind of started this conversation with it like, you know, being competitive, internal, external, intrinsic, external, you know, motivations and whatnot.
But it's not about the medals. And I can say that with like such conviction now that I have, you know, hung up my skates. And maybe it's like, okay, well, you still went to the Olympics. But I, I have friends that have won Olympic gold medals, that have won multiple Olympic gold medals, that have been the greatest of all time. I have friends that should have made the Olympics and stumbled on the one day that they weren't supposed to stumble. And it's, it hurts for sure. I mean, I think everyone has, you know, what ifs not regrets, but what ifs, what a shoulda coulda, whatnot. But it's just never about the, where you end up. Like, it's not about reaching that, the podium. It's lovely and that's a great, great gift. But when I think back on my speed skating career, it's not the medals I'm celebrating, it's the values that taught me that those races taught me in the pursuit of those medals. And that's how I will engage with my children if I'm lucky enough to have them. That's how, you know, I go and talk to my little nephew at his soccer practice whatnot.
And so that's just a long convoluted way to say, I very much hope that wherever we are going as it pertains to sport, that the athlete experience is that bedrock in the building block of everything that we do, because it's about the human experience, not about the shiny necklaces you pick up along the way.
[00:30:58] Speaker B: All right, let's go into you today. We've talked a lot about your journey getting here. So tell us about your work with the cbc. How did it even start? You talked a little bit about taking that leap, but just a little bit of what you do now and how that came to be.
[00:31:15] Speaker A: I shot my shot, to be honest. I gave him an email. I sent an email.
Gosh, the spring of 2017, I had just officially retired and again was very much looking for work, hoping to be involved with the media in Pyeongchang in some capacity. And they hired me on, long story short, to manage a lot of our athlete relationships. So CBC's relationship with the Canadian Olympic Committee, international, you know, international governing bodies, provincial governing bodies, ensuring that we were telling the right stories at the right time, you know, kind of helping with research. All just very interpersonal, like, relationship building, which I adored. And from there, I got a podcast called Players Own Voice. I was very lucky. I hosted that for just shy of 160 episodes. And I just was chatting with buddies. Like, it was so fun. Like, I look back on it and I'm going, God, I just retired. Like, it was. I just had so much built in knowledge. It was so lovely.
And from there, the podcast grew and I became a full time host. So I just came back from Paris. I hosted the morning show. It was one of the most fulfilling things in my life. It was also one of the hardest, being live on television for six hours straight.
I would get off air and I would just be like, slurring my words like, I was so tired. I was so tired. I. It sounded like I had two glasses of wine on an empty stomach. Like, I was like, oh, my gosh, it was, it was great.
[00:32:49] Speaker B: It.
[00:32:49] Speaker A: It truly, it truly left me with like such a.
Such a smile on my heart. That's, you know, kind of sounds silly, but, like, I was disappointed in actually both of my Olympic games as a speed skater. I didn't feel like I. I reached my potential, you know, in the lead up to Sochi, there was a lot going on, some mental health struggles.
And so to go back in this new job and feel as though I gave it my all, and I was really, really proud of, like, what I. What I focused on and how I prepared it.
I didn't go in with this intention or thought, but it, like, cured a little bit of anything that was heavy that was still in existence from my speed skating career.
[00:33:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
So what has this chapter of your professional career taught you about yourself that you didn't know about yourself during your professional speed skating?
[00:33:48] Speaker A: I'm impatient. I didn't think I was, like, I didn't know I was so impatient. But also, my dad's not a very patient person, so I'm like, maybe I'm just becoming more like him. I don't know. I wish I was more patient, but I'm not. I'm really not patient with myself. Like, again, going back to competitiveness, I. I can be really, really, really, really, really hard on myself to the point that, you know, sports psychologists, Psychologists have been like, this is not serving you. Like, this is. This is not rational how you're interpreting kind of your progress.
I also. I also really am grateful for those lessons that skating, you know, kind of taught me. And I've. I've been able to dip my hand in the cookie jar just ever so often to go, okay, what. I feel like this has happened before, and what would I have done differently?
So it's been a. Yeah, it's been a great, great place to build, and speed skating has been the bedrock of it.
And I try and make people feel.
If I'm speaking to them, I try and make them feel, you know, as though this is not just another interview or that I don't care.
You know, I really try and be human first, athlete second, because it's great to talk, you know, shop and circle X's and O's and stuff. But I'm more interested in, like, hearing how you learned how to perform under demand when you had your heart broken. Like. Like, that's the stuff that really makes me tick. I like the human stuff. I. More than. More than running routes.
[00:35:28] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, totally. All right, we're about to go into the. What we call the crucial three. There are going to be three questions to close off the interview, and they're going to scale in difficulty as we go along.
[00:35:38] Speaker A: Perfect.
[00:35:39] Speaker B: Okay. This will bring out the competitor in you.
[00:35:42] Speaker A: I'm scared.
[00:35:44] Speaker B: Before we get there, though, is there anything you want to ask me or is there anything that you want to, like, hype out, put out there for the audience?
[00:35:51] Speaker A: What drew you to this line of work?
[00:35:56] Speaker B: I was a therapist, and I became fascinated with why great therapists make crappy leaders, and I decided to enter into that world and figure it out.
[00:36:09] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. I say this. I don't even want to say this publicly, but, like, Wayne Gretzky, you know what I mean? Like, the greatest of all time, struggled a little bit with coaching and that, like, lives in my brain. It's so fascinating. And Diana's a little bit like that in the sense that she's.
She's. She was so good at soccer. And it's. It's fascinating just hearing how so many people that have had a lot of success when they try and communicate it to other people like me, it's. It's impossible because it's like, well, why isn't your body just doing that? And, you know, it's. That's really, really interesting. Yeah. Thank you. I feel like I've gotten a free therapy session today, so I. I very much appreciate this.
[00:36:54] Speaker B: Can I tell you a funny story?
[00:36:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:36:59] Speaker B: So I. I was just the worst. Like, I was a young professional, like, very kind of, like, come from, like, a progressive, progressive background. You know, my mom, like, you know, even though she comes from, like, a traditional background, she's, like, really progressive thinker. My father was very progressive, like, all of. All that kind of stuff. So, like, I came. And plus, I grew up playing, like, playing music, playing in the punk scene. So I came in with, like, opinions on everything, but also this, like, idea that I needed to tell everyone exactly how wrong they were at all points. So, like, I was this asinine, like, young therapist who was, like, always pointing out all, like, we're not, you know, serving the population, we're not doing the work, you know, blah, blah.
[00:37:39] Speaker A: And.
[00:37:39] Speaker B: And it wasn't that I was. So sometimes it's just totally wrong, like, total uninformed opinion, like just jackass talking. Other times I'd be a degree of right or maybe right, but, like, talking in a way that was just so unappealing. Nobody wanted to listen to this idiot. And the thing I started noticing was that I was surrounded by really, really great therapists. But then they would go into these leadership roles and they would not be great leaders, and I would just eviscerate them. I'd be so critical and just so crappy about it until it happened to me. I was like, I know how to do this. I'm going to go in here. And I sucked. I was a terrible leader. I was, like, passive aggressive and, like, wanted everyone to like me and, like, you know, all of the. All the traps that people fall into. And one day I was like. I looked myself in the mirror and I was like, I suck at this. And I kind of deserve this right now because I've been so crappy to everybody about it. So I went back to being a therapist and that's when I actually had my worst therapist boss. Was like my very next boss, who was actually quite a nice person. Like, you know, if you were just to meet them, like nice, charismatic and everything, but like total control freak. And if you fell out of favor with this person, they would come in on the weekend and they would switch your office to the worst office in the building. And then you'd come in on Monday and you'd be like, I'm in the bad office.
It was totally, it was totally wild. Not a bad person, but a terrible leader. And quite a good, quite a good community activist or advocate, but a really, really crappy leader. And that last job. So my experience of judging people for being bad leaders, then actually being a bad leader, and then coming back and having my own worst version of that, I was like, there's something here I got to understand. So I went into leadership development and coaching and like brought in my background of psychology and then I ended up building this business. And the biggest thing that I learned, and it's something that you'd said earlier, is about authenticity. It's such a, like kind of catch all corny idea, like let's be authentic.
But there is actually something that's important to you and me and everyone there. But authentic could also mean bringing in like our insecurities and those times where we're being let's impatient or where we're being like a jerk or we're afraid and we're acting on that fear. And the thing that I always encourage people to think about is like, figure out what you prefer. Like what are preferences of yours that work for your audience and then what are the things that you have to become authentic at? And when I say authentic, it's like figure out the things that you are afraid of or you don't like doing, but then figure out your own version of doing them so they don't feel alien. It doesn't mean you like doing them, but they're still authentic to you. So it's like the right mix of preference and authenticity so that you can actually be your own self while also pushing yourself and not going to your most like base instincts. So that's, that's how I got into it. And that's kind of like my body of work.
[00:40:31] Speaker A: That's awesome. I'm like, seriously, I'm so inspired. I should have had a pen. Like I'M like, I need to be taking notes. No, good for you. Good for you. Really? You've. Yeah, I've. I've really appreciated this. This chat. So thank you. Thank you for bringing me into your sphere.
[00:40:48] Speaker B: Well, thank you for your time. I really appreciate it. All right, are you ready for the. For the crucial three?
[00:40:53] Speaker A: I'm ready. I'm ready.
[00:40:54] Speaker B: Okay, so this one, you cannot half step. I want you to like. I'm not asking you to be humble. I'm asking you to be the opposite of humble. What's one piece of feedback you've gotten at any point in your career? It could be athletic or it could be in your career now, in the media. What's one piece of feedback that you got that you needed to work on? And you've been successful in completing that work, so you're not still working on it. You've overcome it.
[00:41:23] Speaker A: One piece of feedback that I have gotten, especially in my second career now, but I think pertains also to the first one, is trust yourself. Like, trust your question, trust your stride. I think we can prepare, prepare, prepare. And then the little red light goes on or the gun goes off, and old habits die hard, and you're like, you know, squirrel. That's how I'd feel like sometimes speed skating, when you'd get so nervous.
Trust yourself. Like, keep it simple, stupid. And I have almost mastered that. I'm not perfect around. But, yeah, trust. Trust your question. Because sometimes I think we. Especially if it's a tough question for me, I think, oh, I should. I should give some flowery language so they know I'm not trying to be, you know, intrusive. But it's like, sometimes the most respectful thing is just to go, wow, I know you and, like, what happened out there.
So, yeah, keeping it simple, stupid.
[00:42:27] Speaker B: Heck, yeah. All right, second question. You talked about the most important relationship, and I'm just going to paraphrase here. The most important relationship you have is yourself. And if you're good with yourself, you can be good to other people. Does that capture it? Yes, I know that's an ongoing negotiation with the self. So what's you at your best? You at your best having a good relationship with yourself? What does that look like?
[00:42:54] Speaker A: It is crystal clear that I am in competition with no one. And I am the only person that should be trying to better, you know, myself from a previous version of myself, every single day, try and just show up a little bit better again. It sounds so cliched, but it is such a freeing way to tackle a goal. Or show up for a race. Um, and I have had that clarity, most specifically right after I came out to my mom and my dad, because I realized, wow, my parents are going to love me regardless if I make this Olympic team or not. But it was a lot easier to make the Olympic team when. Yeah, when I. When I knew that. Right. And, like, just the expectations were lifted, the pressure was lifted a little bit because I realized I was enough before the gun even went off.
[00:43:45] Speaker B: Heck, yeah. All right, last question.
There was this photo book that came out when I was young. It was like a music photo book, and it was called the Unheard Music. And there was a little caption by this writer talking about how most people who come up in music have this box of demo tapes of local bands that were the best, best bands, but nobody ever heard of them because they didn't have the right record at the right time on the right record label, or maybe they never did a record. They just had this demo. And it's like, this is one of the best bands in this genre, unbelievably. But, like, only me and my 10 friends know about this. So whenever I talk to people from music, I'm always like, so, who's your unheard music? Like, who are your. Who are your bands that nobody should have ever heard of but need to know for you? You already made a reference to this. You'd said, like, people that I know that never got to the Olympics. If you were to say, who are your top three? And you don't have to do it in any order, but if you could pick three, who are three Canadian athletes that you feel maybe they didn't have their moment where everyone knew about them, but you yourself were inspired or recognized what they brought to the sport.
[00:44:53] Speaker A: My best friend, Sarah. Greg, now, Sarah O'Neal, she competed at the World cup level, and just as the greatest person you could ever meet, herniated a disc in her back or two discs in her back, jumping over a hurdle. That was it essentially, at, you know, 24 years old.
Tyler Darrah is another name I would throw out there. It was a dear teammate. Very, very good at short track. Very, very good at long track.
And unfortunately, it's just a sport where, like, if the puck bounces the wrong way, as it always does to everyone, but if it. If it's just a bad day, on a bad day to have a bad day, you unfortunately don't make the team. You know, I've won races or lost races by 1/1,000th, and that was a little bit of unfortunately, his experience with, with Olympic trials. So I would say him, he's a great guy, has done so much for so many in the sport. And this individual did qualify for the Olympics. She competed twice. Kaylin Irvin. I mentioned her, but they're, they're the greatest Canadian sprinter since Katrina LeMaidone. And unfortunately, they just don't get the, the love that they deserve. Kailyn was like 1/100th off of Katrina's Canadian record that has stood since 2001 or some craziness. Like, it, it literally blows my hair back that it's still the record. And I'm kind of annoyed that it is because I, I'm like, why didn't I have the. Why did I break it? Like, as if I wasn't trying every day.
But, yeah, you know, you just really realize, like, I, I've been so lucky that sport has brought so many good people into my life, and it, it really has nothing to do with metals. It's just fantastic when you see, you know, good people doing great things and they get the fame and the glory. But it's not really about that. It's about the values that you learn along the way. And pretty lucky I've got lots of people in my corner that still will accept my calls and go for a beer and have a laugh about the good old days.
[00:47:02] Speaker B: Well, Anastasia, this was a fun conversation. My fellow Calgarian, I appreciate your time. Any closing words as we're finishing?
[00:47:10] Speaker A: Yahoo. Buddy, I just always. Just grateful. Just always grateful to talk to a Calgarian. And yeah, I just really appreciate your time and this has been a fantastic chat. And please say hi to your mom for me.
[00:47:22] Speaker B: Thanks, everyone. This has been one of my favorite episodes. We'll see you next time on One Step Beyond. Yep.
