Be Good At Who You Are - Walter Schreifels [GORILLA BISCUITS, QUICKSAND], Ep. 99

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey, David, I'm just about to head into this meeting, but I have a real quick question. [00:00:04] Speaker B: Have you had a chance to follow up with the sales team about Project X yet? Oh, man, it's been a crazy week. I was right in the middle of it when I got a call from my auntie. [00:00:18] Speaker C: And in this punishing moment, you're probably wondering, are they ever going to answer the damn question? When you suck at answering questions, the pain is real, your relationships suffer, you're misunderstood, and your career potential is limited every time you ramble on. But when you're great at answering questions, you add value and you're recognized for it. Being able to get to the point when answering questions is an essential skill that builds trust, and it's often overlooked in our professional development. Take your communication to the next level with our open enrollment course. Answer the damn question. In 90 minutes, you'll change the way you think about answering questions and communicate with less chaos. We have an exclusive offer for our listeners. Grab yourself a seat with the code OneStEP 241 and get a second seat free. Gift it to a friend, or take a second open enrollment course on us. Go to www. Dot cadenceleadership dot Ca courses and use the code OneStep 241 at checkout. That's OneStep 241 at checkout. Sign up at cadanceleadership CA courses and learn how to finally answer the damn question. [00:01:36] Speaker B: In my case, it was like just people my age living in New York City having an interest in this really kind of strange, crappy music. And so it really brought an interesting clique of people together that it was not a business thing at that time. But I think there's a lot of businesses that don't necessarily, you know, they don't lead with the business thing. It's like when it becomes a business that they like, oh, crap, we're making money now. We've got to do it differently, everyone. [00:02:05] Speaker A: That was a clip from today's guest, Walter Schreifles. Walter is a musician, producer, and songwriter based in New York. He's known for his time in legendary groups like Quicksand, Gorilla Biscuits, youth of today. He's also helped produce other staple bands like Hot Water Music and title fight. While continually living in breathing all things music, Walter is just an incredible person. I've come to know him a little bit over the years, and he's always just been, you know, it's one of those things where it's like you kind of the people that you grew up listening to and that are really part of the culture you come up in, you just kind of hope they're going to be awesome. And Walter has always been awesome. So not only was I excited to meet with him, it was a great, great conversation, and I'm sure you're going to really enjoy it. Before we get to the interview, please rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast. My name is Aram Arslanian, and this is one step beyond. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the show. Today's guest is someone who's played a big role in my life, even though we've only interacted a very few times. And I think he's played a big role in a lot of people's growing up in the way they view the world. So, Walter, welcome to the show. [00:03:30] Speaker B: Thank you so much. Great to be here. [00:03:32] Speaker A: All right, so for the uninitiated, people who are unfamiliar with your body of work, who are you and what do you do? [00:03:38] Speaker B: I'm Walter Schreiffels. I'm a musician. I live here in New York and have been writing songs, playing in bands, and I do production work and all kinds of stuff related to music. [00:03:50] Speaker A: Okay, so we're going to unpack a whole bunch of stuff, because you're someone that I view as being, like, incredible songwriter, amazing musician. I look at your musical career as someone who's very comfortable with bringing different things to the table and disrupting, but disrupting in, like, a cool way, not an obnoxious. And maybe you'll. Maybe you'll unpack that for me more. Let's focus on songwriting. And, you know, when you were doing the pre work with Spencer, the pre interview, you used a quote, which is, boldness can be praised if it works. [00:04:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think if you. I heard, like, a Bowie quote recently that I thought was really good, along the lines of, like, when you are, when you push yourself to where you're in a zone that you're uncomfortable, that's when you kind of create the opportunities to do something really special, you know? And I think that sort of, like, tentativeness, I think, is where really unique and special things happen. If you kind of trust your sensibility and taste and maybe try to jump ahead a little bit from what people are doing, then people will respond, although there's so many ways it could go wrong, even though if the artistic idea is on point, it might not be appreciated until some later date. But, yeah, I think just with my work, I've always wanted to incorporate all my interests into these different things. There's, like, a lot of them trying to jam into it and always want to be, like, a little bit projecting futuristically for me. [00:05:34] Speaker A: When did that become intentional, though? And to back it up, if we think of in. Correct me if I'm wrong, your first band that you really ever recorded with was Gorilla biscuits, right? [00:05:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I think with gorilla biscuits it was more just. There was so many. Gorilla Biscuits was the first band. It is this hardcore punk band, and there was a really amazing scene in New York City at that time with so many other good bands. So you really had a close proximity to other people that were doing inspiring stuff. So I think the instinct to push forward was based on, like, that I had really lots of great competition to, like, try to, like, grab from and try to anticipate ahead of it. I wouldn't say it was, like, super conscious. I was really just trying to do my best within a realm of, like, a lot of people that I respected and admired. [00:06:25] Speaker A: Totally. So you came up in the scene, which is, like, again, for. And so, you know, like, people come to the podcast from all sorts of different backgrounds because this is a business podcast. Yeah, but we got a ton of people from punk and Harker who are like, I know this guy's story and they're psyched, but there's going to be business people listening to this to give everyone a little background. Like, when Walter talks about the scene that he came up in, it's like legendary punk, hardcore scene New York, full of, like, characters that are beyond your imagination. In that space, what you were doing, it was just natural, though. It wasn't, like, planned out. Right. [00:06:58] Speaker B: Well, I mean, just as much as you were just enthusiastic. I mean, in any sort of business context, you know, there's, like, waves of businesses. You know what I mean? It's like, oh, there's this new drink. It's called soda. You know what I mean? [00:07:10] Speaker A: That's your old time. [00:07:11] Speaker B: Yeah. And so there's, like, Coca Cola. Oh, that's great. And so someone will make it one that's like it, and then someone will say, mine is orange. I'm calling it orange. You know what I mean? And then that group of people that kind of solidify within that pack of people. Yeah. Maybe become the iconic members of that group. But there's a moment when there's an idea kind of comes together, and I think it often happens in clusters of people that are either, like, you know, obviously are sharing. I mean, in my case, it was like, just people my age living in New York City having an interest in this, like, really kind of strange, crappy music and, and so it really brought an interesting clique of people together that, that, um, rubbed up off of each other and, like, challenged each other and inspired and all that kind of stuff. So I think, you know, as it applies to a sort of, um, you know, it was not a business thing at that time, but I think there's a lot of businesses that don't necessarily intend for, you know, they don't lead with the business thing. It's like, when it becomes a business that they like, oh, crap, we're making money now. We've got to do it differently, dude. [00:08:20] Speaker A: Totally. And this is, like, why I was so interested in us having this conversation. What you did led you to become a professional musician and working within music professionally, but it wasn't what, like, you set out to do. You were just some kid who was hanging out with his friends, right? [00:08:36] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, the music that I was putting my energy into was, like, very similar to, like, kids putting energy into skateboarding. It wasn't like, of course, you wanted to do well within the people that were, like, in your little circle, but it wasn't like you're looking at, you know, making it in that kind of way. There wasn't really anybody to point to for the kind of music that I was making that would be like, yeah, I'm gonna do it like that. So, yeah, that kind of just evolved into something where, you know, it was growing and, and then, you know, I wasn't quick to necessarily maximize those things, those opportunities that were, that were kind of opening, but we were very, I think, sharp in knowing our audiences, our audience, and having a very shared sensibility with them and, like, what would go well and what would, like, not go well. And that's like, the kind of messages in your songs, the kind of how they're structured, but on a business sense, like the, you know, like, what kind of t shirts do you put out? Like, what do you, what kind of, what's the price? Who do you associate with? What values are you projecting? These are things I think businesses are thinking about a lot these days. And I would even draw the line to not like myself, but to like people like myself. Or that you're doing a business podcast, people like you as well, that learned a lot of these ways of running an organization, a business, and how you stay attuned to your audience and understand your audience, your consumer, blah, blah, blah. Same thing. You learn how to manage all these different components within an organization and how to work with people, and you get. Make a lot of shortcuts in that kind of diY. Excuse me, DIY realm. Because you realize you don't need permission for a lot of things. You can just kind of bootstrap a lot of things. [00:10:40] Speaker A: Well, I love that idea of not asking for permission. For me, the most liberating idea of punk and hardcore is like, oh, you can just go and do this thing. If we think of discord, it's like, oh, records, we want to do that. Oh, let's just do it. And not relying on a pre existing system, but also not. You're not like, fighting against the system. You're just choosing to not interact with it, but yet do. Do the same thing in your own little microcosm. [00:11:03] Speaker B: Yeah. Cause I think if there's certain industries that are like, yeah, they're very set in their ways, if it existed for a time and they kind of get their, their system works for them. But when, you know, obviously the record industry, the music industry is constantly in flux and people are really, like, always trying to figure out a new way to, like, make that connection between the artist and the audience. And I think in a nice way, it's kind of shifted more towards like, let's make sure the, let's take care of the artist first because the artist isn't getting paid, then we got nothing. You know, I think that was true with the initial hardcore kind of thing. And hardcore music is the kind of music that I was making, but it was very much like, it was still like a more of a commune kind of idea, I think, where there's the guy that's putting out the records, the guy that's making the t shirts, the guy that's playing the bass, the guy that's dancing in the audience, the guy that's booking the shows or whatever, all these different components were part of the same machine in a way. [00:12:17] Speaker A: So in your bands, you kind of unintentionally took on the leadership role. It wasn't like, I'm gonna be like the band dad, or be this person. You just kind of fell into it. How did that happen? [00:12:29] Speaker B: I think, yeah, absolutely. Was not like trying to be like, I'm leading this thing, man. I mean, I have been in sort of in that role, but I mean, just because I got it, I figured out how to write songs and, like, I got interested in it. And then because I was doing that, that just like, that's the sort of the, you know, I'm just gonna say in business speak, but like, that's what we're selling. [00:12:52] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:12:52] Speaker B: You know what I mean? And like, that, that's that's the major point of it, you know what I mean? Obviously, like, we're selling t shirts, we're selling, when we're playing live, we're getting paid for that. And there's each one of those kind of realms is, you know, selling the records. Like, where are they distributed? Who's getting it? Who's is. It's getting a proper amount of coverage in, you know, in that time, it would have been fanzines, but like, media coverage, et cetera, who's responsible for that? So it fans out, but it starts with the songs. And because I was writing the songs and organizing that part of it, for the most part, I ended up not in all ways. I mean, I was very happy to take back seats when it wasn't my department, you know, but in the ways that I was leading, that was where it was coming from. [00:13:39] Speaker A: So at what point did you become conscious of like, oh, actually I want to take a leap creatively or I want to get uncomfortable. So, for example, gorilla biscuits demo to the ep. Theres a pretty clear line of how that progressed. The lp came out, and I remember as a kid getting it and being like, well, this is gorilla biscuits, but this is like, this is a much bigger thing. Its like getting a comic book and then getting a novel. It's just like a different thing. But it kept that through line. Was that a conscious decision to really up your game as a songwriter and to do what the band could do, or did it just kind of happen? [00:14:18] Speaker B: I mean, yeah, definitely wanted to make it great, you know? And I think it was timed nicely to where, like, the whole band, we were just like, our identity was getting more solid, we were gaining more confidence. I was getting more confidence about what I was doing. And our energy was really good to where, like, anything that we did within the group of the five of us at that time was like any idea was going to get bounced around or made fun of in a good way, you know what I mean? So where you have a good team, so it allows people to feel supported. And I felt like I was a great songwriter because those guys were treating me that way. And so that it sort of becomes more real in that way. And if you wanted to do something like, I never felt that our band, because I was cramming all these different influences into it. You have some of the major bands in our realm. I didn't think we were measured up on a lot of different things, but we did well at being us. And I think that that's really what you have to offer the world is be really good at being who you are. [00:15:32] Speaker A: Yeah, that's tough, though. And so I want to. I want to break that into two things because I do want to push on the idea of, like, innovating. And again, when I say the demo to the seven inch, it was like a clear progression. When I call it a comic book, I mean a cool comic book, I'm into that. The difference between those two and the lp is significant. It's a bigger thing. And it felt like someone really put their hands on the wheel and was like, no, I'm going to kind of drive this thing. It had that feel to it. What's the trust involved with getting people to be like, okay, we're just going to go with you. You got the bigger idea. Like, how do you get that kind of trust with people? And was there ever any pushback from people in the band saying, geez, are we going to put harmonica on this? That sounds, like, wild? [00:16:18] Speaker B: Not really. There was never a hard thing. I think I just was, after going from our demo, which was really me trying to figure out this whole thing, that I was new to this kind of music and new to being in a band and all that kind of stuff, and just being parts of it were good to this, like, seven inch. You said our first comic, and it was a solid comic book. And then it was like, okay, now we are. Now we've got an audience. You know, now we can play for an audience. The audience is going to respond. So you're learning from, you know, what would be a business. I'm just going to keep calling your audience, like, the people that care about your thing, that when they're coming back to you, even, it's like, all positive. You're still soaking up that energy of, like, why it's good, what's working within it. And so going at the album, I was better, more confident. And as that, playing that role within the band, the other guys were supportive because I was always like, I also understood, as I was writing things, I understood what my bandmates would do because they all have a personality as performers themselves, as artists themselves. And so, like, I know that this is going to work because I just know how well this person is at that. And so it's going to lift my idea to another place. And then if you say, let's put a harmonica, it makes perfect sense. And if it was dumb or didn't work, we wouldn't have left it on. I mean, there's probably some ideas that we tried that were just like, too. I don't remember what they were, but it was like we were actively searching for things to sort of make it a little bit crazier, you know? Because I think with that album, and it's maybe it's not like a general business thing. It's more of like an actual talking about a record. It's like you have this sort of expectation based on the thing itself, you know, like you said, what you've heard up till that time. So you have a basic projection in your mind of what the next thing is going to be, and then how that fits into the larger context of, like, other bands or other groups of people trying to do the same thing and fucking with that as much as you can while still delivering the core thing. So it's like the songs had all the things that you would want, but wherever there was an opportunity to do something sort of ridiculous or make a squiggly line here or something like that, to show that we have that confidence, like, we're not worried that if we put a harmonica on this record that people are gonna be like, oh, man, that's so uncool, it's so lame. Like, if you're gonna have that reaction to it, then it's like you're a little uptight, and I think it's like you're probably gonna loosen up eventually or maybe never, and that's fine, too. But if that's the point of departure, like, okay, good, we can live with that. It's harmonica for you, and good luck with your thing. But doing those kind of things within that context, you know? And I think that's why people love artists, is, like, when you have that idea of what's coming next, and they play with that expectation while still delivering something that is, like, authentic to their journey. [00:19:36] Speaker A: This is exactly. And so when I think of businesses, I just did an interview a couple weeks ago for this business blog, and they said, what advice would you have for any small business? Someone starting something? And I was like, don't pay any attention to your competitors at all. So when I started my company, I literally had no idea who my competitors were. I knew one company, which is a company I'd been at before, and I had this, like, burning desire to do something way cooler than them, but I didn't, like, keep up with what they were doing, nor did I ever research what other people were doing. And when I was asked why, I was like, because I'm not trying to be derivative of someone else. I'm not trying to do, like, oh, like us too. Like, our company has this. I was like, that's fine. I want to be totally standalone. I want to be completely unique in doing that, though. You got to be able to, like, you got to have the goods so you can be yourself and totally suck. And your head could suck, your business could suck. But if you've got that thing, yeah. Then you should be able to pull it off. Going back to gorilla biscuits, and I'm going to step into Moondog and then quicksand from there. Um, gorilla biscuits 100% is, like, a unique band. And I'd say there's never been another gorilla or gorilla biscuits. Youth of today, which is, of course, one of my all time favorite bands. Or, like, a band like minor threat. There's never been another band like them, but you could see people being, like, iterations of those bands or derivative of those bands. I can't think of a band that's really, like, derivative of gorilla biscuits in a way that's, like, really close. Kind of like Dagnasty. I don't think there's ever one been someone who's super close to Dagnasty. Being that unique means you've got a legacy and something that lasts. But is there any negative side to that? Do people ever react negatively to grilla biscuits being so unique, so different than their peers? [00:21:19] Speaker B: I think probably if you look at fanzines at the time, you probably find some people that are salty about one thing or another. But I think over time and the audience, for people that don't know about hardcore, it's a real salty audience to begin with. A lot of salt in it just from one of the main ingredients. So. So, you know, that's just gonna happen. And. But again, it was like, just like, what the rationale was for. It was, you know, I could have had. I could have had some concerns, like, oh, damn it. You know, being hard, like, in hardcore is, like, kind of part of the thing, and it's like, we're not really, like, hard hard, you know what I mean? Like, because our lyrics are all just uplifting, and I just was confident about what we were doing. I thought we had made, like, a really, you know, I was really happy with. With pretty much every aspect of it, and I think it just had a lot of joy in it and. And was unique to us. And, you know, just the name, the whole thing is just kind of, like, has that. It was just something cool. So I appreciated it as it was happening. And, like, I thought we had made a great album, and so there was, yeah, maybe some reviews like, oh, this is blah, blah, blah, or that's this. I don't like this aspect of it. And, you know, that could, may or may have not annoyed me at the time, but I was very confident that we had made something. You know, we had made a great album. I thought, for sure. [00:22:49] Speaker A: So, gorilla biscuits, it's like your first space of really being like, oh, I'm actually, like a songwriter. I can do this thing, and I'm gonna be unique. I'm gonna be myself, I'm gonna be innovative. And when I said right at the beginning of the interview, I view as a disruptor, because I think you're somewhat not thinking firmly believe you're someone who's like, oh, I'm going to take a leap and try something new, and then people follow. I heard someone said just the other day, a great business leader was like, oh, disruption is when you do something that's not easily imitatable, and everyone spends years trying to copy that, and finally someone gets it down the line, but you're already on to the next thing. [00:23:24] Speaker B: Yes. [00:23:25] Speaker A: That is exactly how I viewed your musical career. So hitting with grill biscuits, you get to this kind of, like, peak, and then the next thing that happens is Moondog into quicksand. What caused that shift? [00:23:39] Speaker B: I think some of it's kind of unique to the kind of scene we're in. There wasn't really a lot of long career arcs in our scene, and I think it was also corresponding with me getting good at or gaining confidence in songwriting, although I still didn't necessarily see myself as a songwriter. I wanted to create things that would happen. And so, you know, I had. I wanted to sing because I was working with Siv from Gorilla biscuits. Like, on singing, like, me and Don Fury, we were like. And siv, we'd all work together on the vocals and, like, really get into it. And that was a really, really fun process. But I felt like, why don't I just sing and do it the way that I want to do and see what it sounds like? And no one knows what I sing like, so if it's bad, no one will care, and if it's good, it'll be surprising, and I want to hear it anyway. And I surely was not wanting to. I think at that time, once there is a sort of understanding of how a thing is done, and I think, like, we were talking about youth today, for example. I think youth today is really, really a great thing, because for many different reasons. One of it is sort of like Black Sabbath. Like, you can pick the cues and take the parts. And that's what I did. You know, being in youth today, I was definitely, like, stealing parts, you know, for what I was doing with gorilla biscuits, because it's that kind of a thing. So. But at a certain stage, like, too many people had the blueprints, and it was just sort of like, I didn't. It wasn't interesting to me anymore. I didn't feel that peer group that I felt maybe a couple years before, like, that were like. And what you said, I think, is very true. Like, don't try to, like, pay too much attention to your peers, but if your peers are inspiring you and are egging you to be compete, you know, in a way. And maybe that's a bad way to put it, like. But it's more like someone says something funny or interesting, you know, that inspires you to maybe, like, get into that conversation, you know what I mean? And it felt a little flat. So I just wanted to, like, throw different ingredients in and things that were, like, maybe less discordant and just a little change to the formula, little changes to the formula was enough to do something sort of drastic to where the feedback was, again, really good. And I think it was a mixture of that. Sort of like, oh, this isn't. I don't like this. But you just knew that it was the people that were, like, bugging on it were gonna be the louder voice. [00:26:28] Speaker A: Yeah. I wanna hit on two things. He said. Do you mind if we talk about competition for a second? [00:26:32] Speaker B: Sure. [00:26:33] Speaker A: So if you're playing a show and you're headlining and the band, before you crushes it, they're awesome. Do you wanna go in and be like, okay, we'll just phone it in, or does that make you go harder? [00:26:42] Speaker B: Damn. I mean, you don't wanna look thirsty trying to chase anybody. And I think I'm past the point of, like, if someone's really, really good. Yeah, I'm inspired by that. You know what I mean? I don't think it's bad to be competitive if you care about what you're doing, because it's not competitive to beat them or take something from them. It's to move it forward and to reinterpret, because everybody's like, people are reinterpreting. I mean, I'm not big. I don't want to be big headed about it in any way, but there are some people that are reinterpreting what I do. [00:27:24] Speaker A: Totally, man. [00:27:25] Speaker B: But they should know that I'm just reinterpreting what someone else did. And, like, I'm failing at, like, ripping them off by creating this other thing that just sounds slightly wrong. You know what I mean? And some of that's really obvious. You know what he means at times, you know? And I'm not, like, ashamed of that. It's just the way that it is. It's like we're always imprinting. You're born. You've, like, you're this little blob. Someone tells you you're a person. You're imprinting off your parents, you're imprinting off of your siblings or whatever, where it's just like, that's what life is, you know? [00:27:57] Speaker A: Someone that I learned. One of the people that I learned the most about songwriting from was Todd Jones. And Todd Jones one day, I was like, damn, I'm having a really hard time coming up with something. And he was like, oh, they just sent me a song. And he's like, play this riff backwards. I was like, can I do that? He was like, oh, that's, like, all. Every single song, I start with taking a riff that I like and twisting it or moving it in some way, and it was kind of like someone gave me the keys where I was like, yeah, like, you know, great things come from, like, not being derivative, but, like, iteration and creating new things and bringing all the different influences. It was one of the most. He'd probably laugh if he heard this. He might be like, don't tell people my secret. But, like, that's what it was a game changer thing for me, rather than sitting in my bedroom and, like, pounding my guitar. [00:28:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:43] Speaker A: Just feeling like, this sucks. Like, oh, go with something that's inspiring. Just don't be derivative of it. [00:28:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:48] Speaker A: Going back to competition. Listen, I am a firm believer that's there's toxic competition where it's just, like, shitty. You're jealous, you're angry, you want to win, so other people lose. And then there's super cool competition, which I believe you were talking about in the early days of the scene, that you were part of, where people inspire you, and you're like, oh, yeah, I want to do that. And, in fact, I want to up the game. I want to take it up a few notches. Healthy, positive competition is what I believe is about making the world better in general, and not just, like, music or art or business, but, like, oh, like, hey, what a great community program they've got over there. I actually kind of want to make an even better version of that. [00:29:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:24] Speaker A: That, in its base level, is an idea of, like, I want to iterate on that and make it stronger, more powerful, have my voice a part of it. Yeah, that's competition. [00:29:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:32] Speaker A: Competition is nothing wrong. The seed is in competition with the soil around it. I think that's totally cool. [00:29:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:38] Speaker A: Going to not paying attention to people versus, like, paying attention because people inspire you. I'm a firm believer. And hang out with people who are good at the things that you want to be good at. [00:29:49] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, you're learning from people. I mean, I feel like, yeah, I mean, that competitiveness, you know, it's just like there's. Yeah, there's a childish version of that, especially if you're talking about art, though. I mean, it's like, you know, what, what drove all these, you know, the Beatles and the Rolling Stones, obviously the Beatles. The Rolling Stones are chasing the Beatles for a long time and off to great effect. You know, it's like they're ripping off the Beatles. And yet I love this because they're doing it. You know, they're doing it. They have something inherently good in what they're doing that just works in this context and then eventually leads to them just being like, okay, we've covered that base and now we're going to get into some other sort of thing. And I think, and also I think it's good in any sort of, like, you know, again, bringing it back to, like, a business idea. It's like, to understand the conversation that's going on, I think is helpful. Like, if you're getting into anything, like, oh, yeah, you know, I would like to be open business x or whatever. It's good to at least know what the other people are doing. So you have some people that you admire, because then you can create a sort of taste in something, and then when people are talking about it, you get the references and you can understand the subtleties within something to why you decide to include some sort of cliche or not, or twist it, you know what I mean? Because there are structures that exist in musical styles, in any sort of product. You know what I mean? Like a sneaker, street wear styles, you know what I mean? Certain colors are going to come to the fore and certain trends are going to play out. And I think it behooves you if you're going to invest your time and money in trying to be any sort of entrepreneurial effort, it behooves you to understand the sort of the lay of the land and also to, like, have some people that you, like, love and some people that you just, like, think are doing it wrong as hell. So that you, like, can feel that vibe, you know? And. But, yeah, if you. I think anybody initially getting into something is going to be, and there's nothing wrong with it is, like, you're going to, like, just try to, like, imitate the people that you think are cool. [00:32:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:32:10] Speaker B: But at some point, there's gonna be someone else that's, like, kind of on your. On your. Your plane, you know what I mean? And you'll notice what they're doing. They'll notice what you're doing. And, like, then it comes down to person, you know, personality and luck and context and all these kind of things. I remember, like, sick of it all's demo was just so goddamn good. I was just like, our demo is, like, sucks compared to this thing, man. And I just, you know, just wanted to get to that point where we could do something that sounded that together and that drove me to work harder at it and just, like, figure out how to do it. But it's never a thing of, like, there's nothing to take away from sick of it all. Just, I love them. I was a fan. [00:32:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:32:51] Speaker B: So that's inspiring. I think that's how it always kind. [00:32:53] Speaker A: Of works, I believe, surrounding yourself by successful people, and I don't mean monetarily, but just in whatever pursuit. So someone who's a great parent, like, I. We have, like, a young daughter. I love being around people who are great parents who are, like, really plugged into their kids lives. It's super inspiring to me. It makes me better at what I do. Yeah, I'm not competing with them. I'm, like, trying to learn from them. [00:33:15] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:33:16] Speaker A: I spent a lot of time with, like, business mentors, people who've been successful, again, not in, like, whether or not they've made a ton of money, but, like, there's a company in. Started in BC, an insurance company, and the CEO is someone that I've, like, befriended, and they're, like, big company, but he's just. It's a family owned company, and he's just a cool dude, and he stayed a cool dude, and the company, as an. As a outcrop of that, is just, like, a real company. You might think of insurance and be like, oh, insurance. It's lame, but it's like, well, literally, your guitar probably has insurance, and I would rather be involved in business that has a heart and has good people involved in it than just, like, whatever insurance company. Surrounding yourself with good people who are, like, good at what you want to be good at, I think, is, like, the most important thing to, like, upping your game constantly. [00:34:00] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:34:01] Speaker A: Going back to quicksand. So you make this shift, you're doing a different thing, because there's a big difference between grill biscuits and quicksand. But the songwriting sensibility is there. But it's upped very specifically the bass intro into in a mission from when it starts to when everything kicks in. It screws with my head every single time. I don't understand how you wrote that. [00:34:22] Speaker B: Because it's just, like, in the middle of the phrase. Yes, so. But it was not anything that's, like, I don't. Like. We're talking about people. Like, I listen quicksand. I always think jawbox. Like, how did jawbox figure out these, like, cool tricks? Or, like, fugazi do it, too? It's like, I wish I could figure out those cool tricks. The cool tricks that come for me are just, like, they just happen. Like, I. And maybe that's how it happened for those guys, too. It probably is, but I picture them with, like, you know, all these schematics and, like, you know, you know, like, bulletin boards, like, how do they build this key change or whatever, but, yeah, something like that. Just, you know. And again, it's playful, too, because it's. It is. Although there's a darkness to it. It's like playing off of the brightness of gorilla biscuits, in a way. But it's also playful because it's. It's not labored over really too much, and. And it's just like playing with your expectations. You know, I thought that. That people who liked gorilla biscuits might be tripped out by it, but in a good way. [00:35:36] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:35:37] Speaker B: And if I was wrong, no one would care, so it'd be fine. [00:35:39] Speaker A: Totally. So you're like, you've got the. The liberty of putting out this record. Just start with Moondog going to quicksand. You've got the liberty of doing it because you've also got a following people believe in. You got a good group of people around you. You've got a record label that believes in you as a good friend. Then you sign to a major. At what point does music become a business for you? And I don't mean the negative connotation, but what. At what point do you guys have to start treating it like a business? [00:36:05] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, certainly at that time, because there's. And we were still pretty young, but, I mean, it was. There's just more money being handled, and so you had to. There was taxes and stuff like that that were, you know, we were selling t shirts, but we were selling them out of the van and just, like, collecting cash and, like, splitting it up at the end of the night, you know what I mean? There was no accounting. There was no record of it or anything like that. So fortunately, in quicksand, we had our drummer. Alan was, like, very on point with that kind of stuff. And he. And I think most bands, you get four people, it's usually the drummer, actually. Someone will get on point with that and recognize it as a business. And then we got. We ended up with a really, you know, typical structure at the time. You know, we had a manager, we have an accountant, we have a lawyer and, you know, a booking agent, and, you know, all these different people that are involved in moving it forward, having it be more successful, saving money where we can save it, and making sure we don't get in trouble with the government and that our people that are. At that time, it was the record label that our relationships are good because they are the source of our ability to go out on tour to make records because we've signed this agreement with them. So that doesn't mean it's all on our terms. It's a relationship as well to make sure those relationships are good and that we are plugged into the right people that can help us at a larger spot. Those kind of business things came more into my realm, but it was still, at that point, there was a structure of, like, adults that kind of were able to. And with our guy Allen, who was very much watching those guys, you know what I mean, in a helpful way. [00:38:02] Speaker A: Something Chris Wren from bridge nine said to me that I thought was, like, really powerful. He didn't take a salary from bridge nine. I don't even know if he does now. He makes his living off sullies, off his t shirt company. And I asked, why, like, why don't you go all in on bridge nine? He said, once the thing that you're passionate about becomes how you make your living, it interferes with the choices that you make. [00:38:24] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, for sure. I mean, I guess at that point, I was frustrated with that. This system, you know, you have this major label system and what, you know, I think we're kind of hitting on this a little bit earlier, but, like, the major label system had evolved over years and, you know, was working for them, but I saw nothing but waste within it because, you know, we had made a record for like $2,000 or, you know, $1,500 some, like, crazy, like, not $3,000 and had sold, you know, 1015 thousand copies of this thing. And now here we are to make our album, and we can't make it for, like, less than, like, a quarter million of dollars. And, like, I just don't understand why that is. [00:39:09] Speaker A: Like, they wanted you to. [00:39:12] Speaker B: They. You want. You're contracted. Like, the numbers are big in this realm, so you have to spend that money, and you're. It's not like they just give it to you. Hit us back in, like, six months with the album. It's like, no, they're involved. They're following their investment. And to my mind is like, okay, we spent $2,000 on the last one. That was three songs. So let's just say we spend $10,000 on this one. Like, tons of other bands in our same position will be doing this year. And then we just keep that money. You can put part of it in something that you want to do, but, like, why are we just burning all this money? And so that was kind of crazy to me, but, you know, there was reasons for it. And now that that major label system is kind of broken down in a lot of ways, there's a certain sadness that I have because, like, while, like, that money would have been so much, I think, better spent, in a way, it also kept this whole system going, which means that, like, people had jobs, you know, so. So I can see it crying from both angles. But we had people that were, you know, respected and pros within the business, like, navigating that for us. And, you know, I think I really kind of got more into a business when I started to, like, fall out of that system, because then it's just like, me, like, how am I going to do this? And, like, once I kind of saw that, okay, this is not, like, a fluke. Like, this is what I do. [00:40:43] Speaker A: Yeah, that's exactly where I want to go. [00:40:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:46] Speaker A: So quicksand, you talk to one person that might be like, oh, yeah, quicksand was a cool band. Like, definitely a cool band, but I loved gorilla biscuits, or I've loved what Walter's gone on to do. Other people are like, oh, quicksand is, like, the most pivotal band in alternative music, and we'll take that stand on. [00:41:01] Speaker B: It. [00:41:03] Speaker A: Ups and downs with that band, big time. So I want to talk about the leadership role of, like, how do you. When you've got something that is at that inflection point where culture's changing and you're part of that culture change, and it starts wearing down on the people? So from a leadership perspective, what were you doing or what were you learning about keeping a group of people focused in together during that time. [00:41:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think I probably could have done better. I mean, I think it was at the time that we were doing this, you know, I was in my twenties and kind of dealing with a lot of stuff, and I just kind of took a more personal look at, like, what was going on and what the stress is of, you know, the stresses of doing it the way that we were doing it, which was very, you know, we were playing, like, 300 dates a year. [00:41:50] Speaker A: That's crazy. [00:41:50] Speaker B: Which is, believe that. And, you know, this is all encompassing to my life. And there was just eventually, I think, everyone was just kind of a little mentally worn out. I would have liked to have thought that our structure could have, like, filled that some of those, and they, you know, and they did, and people tried in a ways. I think now, like, having had that experience and maybe, like, you know, having all kinds of experiences in life to have a better handle on it, I think there's, like, just communication that probably could have, as a leader, probably would have been better to say, hey, guys, let's take a break, because we're starting to go after each other on things that aren't really as big of issues that we're making them out to be and. And not seeing really, like, we're just under a lot of stress or, like, this isn't like that. Our sort of vibe is getting knocked off by the fact that we're just, like, completely tethered to this, to the road. [00:42:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:52] Speaker B: And we need to, like, get away and appreciate what we're doing a little bit rather than being, like, in it so much. [00:43:00] Speaker A: Well, like, the retrospectively, like, when I look at gorilla biscuits, it looks like a bunch of young kids, friends who just kind of grew up together. Just growing up together, like, playing music. Growing up together. Quicksand. I believe you were all, like, friends when you started the band, right? [00:43:15] Speaker B: I was closest with Tom, the guitar player, and I lived with Alan, but we weren't, like, super tight. Like, we were just, you know, roommates. Hey, man. How you doing, Sergio? I didn't really know. I thought it was cool because I think Tom and Alan were really just great musicians. I thought of our. Of our crew that I knew, and. And Sergio was someone new that I hadn't played with and added, like, some other kind of, like, element that played a sort of x factor, you know, like, where in saying, we were talking about guerrilla businesses earlier, like, you know, I was very plugged into how everyone played, and we were very like, in the same, you know, Ted Saints after you were all that kind of stuff like that going into quicksand, it wasn't like that. Like, you know, even Alan and Tom, they were in the same band. They were like, they already had beef, you know what I mean? When they came into quicksand. So. So you basically had, you know, me and Tom were pretty tight, you know? And eventually we all became tight, but our chemistry spoke immediately, you know what I mean? And I think, like, everyone knew that, like, you know, and I think a lot of times, I mean, I've really mostly experienced with music, but, you know, everything, when something just clicks, it clicks. [00:44:35] Speaker A: Well, very specific to that. What's more important? And I know you're gonna say both are important, but, like, which has more weight, the ability to come together and really click and create something or the ability to come. To come together and, like, hang and be, and be good with each other? [00:44:52] Speaker B: I think they're both important aspects, you know? And I think what's more important is, like, recognizing that, you know, and giving people respect and trust. I think that goes such a long way. I think there's a tendency when something, especially when there's, like, when you got geniuses in your band, you know what I mean? Like, people that are really have a vision, have, like, a way that they, they could steer the thing as well as you could, that you show respect and show trust. I think sometimes there'll be more, like, people try to cut each other down, break each other down a little bit, and by breaking someone else down, that can work for a while, maybe you'll just SAP the fun out of it for that person, and they'll just do it because they need the money or they don't know what else to do, or blah, blah, blah, blah. But you've just cut off a source of potential coolness before they were annoying to you. You know what I mean? So the way that you get someone to, you know, someone's annoying to you has something to do with them, but it also has a lot to do with you, why someone's annoying you. And, like, you have a lot more control of how that works. And my experience over time is, like, you know, communication, but also just, like, listening to people, you know what I mean? Listening to people, listening to their ideas, working through their ideas, getting on the same page on those things. Because, like, when someone listens to me, like, or anybody, you know, it's like, you appreciate that, you know, you feel heard. And if it's not, like, if they didn't like, really want to pick up what you're laying down, but it's done with respect and with trust. And you have, like, a track record like that, then you're gonna get the best out of people, and they're gonna be. They're gonna do the same for you, and then you have, like, a functioning thing. I'm not saying that that's, like, you know, I would be down for, like, a benevolent dictator. Like, if they were crushing calls, like, you know what I mean? If you're coming with a hot hand and you're doing it, you know, there's no need to be abusive about it, but you know what I mean? But I will bow. I'll do it. You know, like, with youth today, it's like, ray's got a hot hand. You know what I mean? He's the man. So I will always defer to his vision, even if it's like, I don't know, man, but let's roll, you know? And, you know, working from that point where, you know, Ray was the definitive leader of the band. He was very good at, like, opening up channels, you know, to, like, get the best out of me. [00:47:30] Speaker A: Yeah. How important is humility in the. In the ability? And it's kind of a loaded question because it's obviously important. But, like, again, for the audience, for audiences who hasn't been here, gorilla biscuits and youth of today were contemporaries and both, like, massively impactful bands for many, many people. In Gorilla biscuits, you were clearly, like, everyone mattered in the band, but you were, like, the creative center of the band. In youth of today, you played a supporting role. So how did you manage both of those things to be able to really know how to play the right role in the band and keep whole while you did it? [00:48:09] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that was a good. A good experience for me, because being in youth today, like, I felt like Ray's really got a vision, and I trust, trust his vision, but he also opened up a lane for me to, like, improve upon it, and so he got my best. He got the best out of me, and that works. I don't think that was a scheme. I think he just saw, like, that he had. He had good people to work with, but I think, like, now I think more of. In those kind of. Those kind of terms, you know? Like, sometimes you could get. I think maybe at a younger age, it'd be like a zero sum. You know what I mean? It's like, my idea is great, your ideas sucks, and I will crush you to, like, eliminate your idea. Like, oh, if it has to be through, you know, whatever kind of. I will do it. You know what I mean? Because you'll ruin it. You know what I mean? Even if when you win those battles, you don't really win because you build resentment. And I think that that'll kind of come and get you eventually. And not only from that person, but you're also. Your own mo kind of gets clouded by that. So I think that's. Some people are just wired have a better sense of that. Like, from the jump, I had to kind of, like, learn it. And, you know, it's also important to be. Be firm when. When something should be one way or the other. And you do have to make those calls and sacrifices. Like, it's important that you're down to do that. But I think if you're working in a group, you need. You need to, you know, engage them and show them respect and give them opportunities, because that's what people want. People are there. They want to. They want to give. [00:49:55] Speaker A: So your career continues. Quicksand has. Puts out two lp's. There's some clear challenges because the band's kind of, like, seems to be like, kind of emerging and disappearing and emerging and disappearing, and you make the shift into rival schools and eventually into more solo work. Tell us about the ability to keep it as a living when that. When you made that shift. [00:50:23] Speaker B: I mean, I think at that point, like the. When quicksand broke up, the record label picked up my contract, so I had a solo contract and. [00:50:34] Speaker A: But no, were you the only person? [00:50:36] Speaker B: I was the only one that got picked up, so I had a contract but no band. So that was kind of cool, but kind of weird because then I had to, like, create some sort of thing and. And I had to kind of fill it into. They had already paid for it, so there was no this sort of, like, you know, especially in music businesses, like, you're trying to get the band, then you got the band, you're so happy. It's like, they already had me, right? So it's like, yeah, you know, send us some songs. Let us. We're gonna get. We'll get around to it. And it was. It was sort of a weird thing because, like, it's cool to be on a major label. And my, you know, I wasn't, like, getting ahead, but my bills were paid. I didn't have to, like, do things. Like, I didn't have to really have to hustle for money, really, but it kind of got shoestringy after a while, and I didn't feel like I didn't feel like I was artistically thriving because I was just sort of on hold. And so I wasn't really connecting with my audience anymore. So I think that was kind of a tough little slog for me. But luckily, it kind of emerged with rival schools and with a whole new record company and, you know, because these things get bought out and it's a major company, so everyone gets fired, and then a new wave of people come in and they all get fired. And so now I finally, like, everything's together and, yeah, I mean, I was seeing it as, like, I mean, I was kind of getting used to this in a way. Like, just maybe rival schools was the first time I started saying, like, okay, this is really who I am and what I do. You know, I started to connect it more to my, like, what I do as a profession. [00:52:14] Speaker A: Yeah. So how did that change your approach to doing it, though, both creatively and from a business aspect? [00:52:23] Speaker B: I think more on an artistic side, not on a business side. I think it was maybe after that, because I think I was still just. It was more about the music and the art for me, like, really seeing it as, like, these are my creative things or not. They're not mine, solely. Like, I'm working with people that are also contributing and doing great stuff and lifting, but, like, I am still that force behind it, especially, like, when it's my contract, blah, blah, blah. So I started to accept that more, and then I think after rival schools, I was, like, again, open to be, like, I was still focused on the music, actually. But I guess I started to get make sense of it more as a business because my next project wasn't on a major label, so then the money started to count more. [00:53:18] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:53:19] Speaker B: And so I had to, like, look at that a little bit more closely and, you know, I don't think I'm like, I'm still not. Like, it's just a larger concern. Like, I think it just starts, you just start to get more of a ratio of, like, what is my time? Like, is this thing that I'm doing gonna benefit me on a creative level? Is it gonna bring me around people that I think are interesting or gonna lift me? And if it pays, like, what, what. How is that significant? And is it, like, virtually, you know, sort of a cost benefit analysis? I get a little bit more clued into. [00:54:05] Speaker A: Rival schools. Like, very cool chapter. And what you did, bringing me to what I think are two super. As your audience, as part of your audience, two super interesting things. I've always considered you to be a person who's always moving forward and expanding your ability to create and bring more stuff into your. Into what you do. You have. I think I say this often about sick of it all. Sick of it all was one of the first bands who learned how to, like, really be a hardcore band professionally and still be cool. [00:54:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:40] Speaker A: I think you're one of the originators of someone who came from the punk scene and stayed cool. Like, you didn't, you didn't become like a wild, like, weird caricature of yourself. Like, you stayed cool. So you've always been moving forward and then comes reunions, and I don't know if you've ever. If you had this feeling, but I remember as a kid growing up, I was like, I don't want to see a reunion. Like, that sucks. It's like a sellout. It's like, you know, it's bullshit. And when bands would do it, I'd always be like, I'm not gonna go. Then one day I found myself getting on an airplane to go to New York to see the first gorilla biscuits reunion show that we didn't know there was going to be more. And because my friends first step were playing and rich all got me in. Bless you, rich all shout out to rich at CB's jeebies. Rip to rip to CBGB's. I remember being there and not being conflicted. I remember being there and being like, this is going to be the most important night of all of our lives. And it was. It was this incredible, incredible night. And then gorilla biscuits starts doing reunions and still does reunions as an artist, as a disruptor, as someone who's always kind of moving forward. [00:55:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:55:53] Speaker A: What was that like for you to do then? What's the thinking behind it? [00:55:56] Speaker B: I think I probably had the same attitude as you, to be honest. And then, you know, there was a, this. CBGB's was being like, you know, ultimately, like, they, they had to close down, but it was like, in the name of this thing. [00:56:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:10] Speaker B: And, you know, and also just like, our guys in our band and just kind of like, what a nice way to. For us to, like, you know, to give each other a hug and hang out with each other. You know, we always see each other and here and there, but, you know, we had kind of scattered out a little bit at that point. But, yeah, we went and played seabees and, like, the response was just like. It was just, like, insane. Like, I had never experienced it like that. And then there was just a demand for it. And we had this whole tour booked, and actually, I tried to pull the plug on it because I was just like, I don't know. I just don't know if I want to, like, slip down the slope. But it was already too far. It was actually kind of a dick move for me to try to do that. It was just like my own anxiousness about it. And I think over the years, it's really. I kind of look at it as an experience. I think, like. Like Civ once said, it's like, you know, I'm here to, like, feel like I'm 17 again, you know, with all these people, and, like, everybody is a part of it, and it's multi generational, so it's some sort of, like, experience. It's not even really, like. It's not like a band band. It's like an experience. That's how I kind of feel it. And it's like a machine, and the audience is all a part of it, and it's just like, you know, it ebbs and flows in some ways, very, very similar, but it's always different because it's always, like, different people, and there's just different aspects of it. And it's really. It's been beautiful for, like, my friendships with my friends. And so that's been amazing, but I would not feel comfortable just doing that. And so I'm still very, you know, like, doing quicksand. Make new music. I've made, you know, I've done, like, so many records in the last. Since I started doing grill ups because I've done, like, you know, six records at least, you know, of just new material so that I can still feel, you know, that I'm with it. You know what I mean? Because if I'm not doing it, then, yeah, then you kind of do get a little stuck. And, you know, I need to be. [00:58:27] Speaker A: Passionate about something totally well, and the reason I'm asking is, like, I think culturally, like, punk and hardcore, very salty, very salty world seemed to really shift, and it was like, oh, when youth of today did that kind of legendary four songs, I think it was like city gardens and you played and it was like, oh, my God, that happened. [00:58:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:58:49] Speaker A: But then years later, Ray and porcelain and maybe Sammy, but then they got Tim Brooks to play bass. Cause you wouldn't do it. [00:58:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:58:57] Speaker A: I always thought that was the sickest move where it was like, nah, I'm not gonna do it. Cause. And was it just cause you weren't into reunions at the time? [00:59:03] Speaker B: I don't know. What was going on at that time. But I just didn't feel like doing it. [00:59:07] Speaker A: Yeah. So. But that. I just didn't feel like doing it right. It was like, yeah, I just don't want to do it. I remember at the time thinking, like, that's the sickest move. Cause I was in that headspace of, like, reunions. They're like, somehow I had adopted an idea that reunions were a bad thing. [00:59:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:23] Speaker A: And. And I think that was kind of a general idea within. Within the scene. And I'm going to pull a sidebar note. I always kind of think of the sick of it all. Born against radio fight. [00:59:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:34] Speaker A: Classic. Yeah. Because I think it's, like, such an interesting idea of, like, hey, man, like, you can, like, nobody's wrong in that. [00:59:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:42] Speaker A: Right. One side is the, like, ethical. Like, this is supposed to be different. The other side is like, it is different. We just want to take it to a different platform. Yeah, nobody's wrong in that. Yeah. [00:59:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:50] Speaker A: So are doing reunion show wrong? Wrong? Reunion shows wrong? No, not at all. If people want to see it, unless they're bad. Right. Well, but if people love the band, they want to see it, you know? And, like, I'm not even saying if it's done for the right reasons, but if, like, a band is important and people want to see it and the band rocks, like, kills it. [01:00:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:00:06] Speaker A: Why is that bad? Flip side. Well, wait. Like, punk and hardcore is supposed to be about something and it creates this, like, weird, murky ground that I think kind of punk and hardcore has maybe dealt with on its own where it's like, no, it's okay as long as the band is invested in the culture and they're kind of part of the culture and something that I think really stands out around gorilla biscuits and still doing it and being able to do reunions that are well respected and well loved is that you are all seemingly invested in the culture still. [01:00:34] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, it's like, it's amazing. Here we are, we're grown adult guys, and we, you know, you live in a different part of the country and I live in a different part of the country, and yet here we are doing this kind of thing. Like, that happens on so many different levels. Like, it's a big cultural thing for my. For my, you know, people my age, but it's also, like, expanded and grown over generations and generations. And some of them I'm more checked in than I am with other ones. I'm kind of a bit current these days because I was doing a show about hardcore for vans over the, over the pandemic era. But this sort of, some people call it a family. I think it's a sort of society, you know what I mean, of people that have these sort of certain shared values and other ones that are kind of like, you know, takes all kinds, but, you know, a love of music, a love of culture, I think generally, like, you know, people that want, like, you know, fairness and, you know, people are, I think, are generally on the side of good. [01:01:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I'm going to ask you a tough question. If you want to pass on it, it's totally cool. When gorilla biscuits came back, I remember when you started playing show shows, I was watching you guys and I heard just someone beside me was like, man, I don't remember them being this good when I saw them. When I, oh, yeah, we got way better. You became like, you were all more experienced musicians. [01:02:12] Speaker B: Yeah. And just, we were not. I look at pictures of us or videos of us at that time and I think we were a bit uptight, to be honest. And I think this is like, absolutely, like, we just, we're so goddamn lucky that we made this thing with the harmonica on it and all that kind of stuff and that people keep rediscovering it like, it is cuckoo. And so, like, we're just really happy to be doing that. And, like, honestly, like, we're good musicians. Like, not like, I mean, I don't know. I don't know. We travel in all circles as musicians, but, like, really fun people to play with, like, musically, and we just really enjoy the hell out of it. And we appreciate, like, you know, like, civ can just, like, really engage with the audience in such a cool way and that the, you know, we didn't really. I think when we played, we didn't really have. I always feel like I'm a little stiff and just trying to, like, project some sort of, like, thing, whereas now we're just very much more comfortable, I think, with who we are. And I think that energy is really is. I think people plug into it and they're also. The audience is telling us in a way, like, we are here to have fun. Like, we're in a good damn mood. And so, like, that just becomes the mode. [01:03:35] Speaker A: And so you went right to, what I want to talk about is, and this is tough, so if you want to push on it, totally cool with it. I saw you with judge at, like, something like tattoo convention in California. I flew down to go see it and it was crazy. It was like a crazy show. Like, a massive show. I think Travis Barker was, like, his tattoo. So we're talking, like, real deal, big show. Gorilla biscuits is a incredible live band at this point. You're like, good. The crowd is having the most fun, and at what point? So, like, young me is in my head where I'm like, I could not imagine at, like, 16 or 17, I'd be sitting here in California watching this crazy amazing thing happening, and this is like some crazy, huge tattoo festival. There's real money being made. [01:04:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:04:22] Speaker A: At what point is the. Is the meeting ground or the crossroads between doing art and doing art? Just because you have fun and you want to do it and making money? So, like, how do you do that in a way, because you are doing something that could go on forever. Gorilla biscuits. Until the wheels fall off, whatever it is. But gorilla biscuits could keep playing shows forever. And I think we all want gorilla biscuits. Keep playing shows together. How do you manage that crossroads? Or is that even something you even think about? [01:04:51] Speaker B: Well, I mean, everybody's got their lives. Like, there's kids, there's other jobs and stuff like that that people are doing. So in order to organize a show for us to play it, we have to have. It has to work out. We have to be interested in it. The money has to be there for it to make sense. So it's kind of easier to, like, make these choices in a lot of ways because we're okay saying no. [01:05:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:05:20] Speaker B: Like, if we see, if we say no to something, to be honest, that just means somewhere down the road, there's just more people be more up for it. If it's the worst thing we could do is say yes to too much stuff, because then you're, like, kind of saturating it. And, like, we don't. I think what we do is super special because we kind of keep it to what it is. You know, we're playing these songs with absolute. We're in it 100%. Like, my hands are just moving. I don't know what's going on. And that's a very special experience. And so, like, we pick our spots, you know? And I think by doing that, I think we've been pretty good to not just, like, burn out on it or burn other people out on it, you know, because. And I can only say that because, you know, we get contacted for things. [01:06:14] Speaker A: Of course. [01:06:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:06:17] Speaker A: That kind of picking your spots, though, the decision to kind of stay more of, like, and I'll use this term, and I don't mean it in an insulting way, but being more of, like, a legacy act. You did one single, and the single at the time didn't seem like it was very well received. [01:06:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:06:36] Speaker A: And you didn't do anything more. Was that based on, you know what? Let's just keep it a legacy act because we think it's. We just want to keep it simple. Or was it. We're scared to screw up our legacy? [01:06:45] Speaker B: I think it was a combination of things. Like, I think we just didn't do it. There's a couple things. We just mis cues, I think, on that. On that single. I think the song's really good. The songs are really good, but I think we. I think there's a combination of things. People own the band, actually. And I think that's. That's the thing. So it's like, I wanted to make something new, maybe to assuage my guilt of, like, doing a reunion, to, like, be contemporary in some sort of way, but I think it was maybe just trying too hard in a way, and it should have been more considered. And, I mean, whatever. I think it's good in the fact that it, like. It basically audience said, don't make any new songs, dude. The pressure's off. [01:07:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:07:32] Speaker B: So I think with gorilla bis, it's very comfortable to just, like, this is an experience. This is like. You know, it's. In a way, it's theater. Like, we're. But you're in the. You're in the show, too, you know what I mean? And I think that's a very special. And it's, like I said, it's a multi generational connection that I think, you know, we weren't, like, in the first wave. We weren't, like, minor threat level, but we were pretty early on. Shockingly, because I thought the whole thing was over by the time we got into it. I thought we were very late. So I think that's really the thing. And to create new material when you don't need to, I don't really feel. Or we don't feel the need to really push that, but I think that's unique to gorilla biscuits. Whereas in quicksand, I wouldn't feel like. We felt very, very strongly that we had to, like, if we're gonna keep doing it. Cause it's. To me, it's often will be. You know, we're talking about reunions. It's often two diminishing returns because everyone's really excited to see the band, and then they've seen them, and then they come back six months later. It's like, oh, yeah, cool. I'll go to see them, and then the third time they come, you're sort of like, I actually. I'm kind of busy that night and I think that's just the way that these things are. I think quicksand really felt immediately like we wanted to be a creative entity for us to feel like we can play those songs and feel cool about it and to build it into the context of, like, who we are now. And I think with gorilla biscuits, we are who we are now in how we are on stage. Really. [01:09:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:09:14] Speaker B: And how we handle. Handle the whole thing well, it's like. [01:09:17] Speaker A: Gorilla biscuits were truly gorilla biscuits. When you're young and you put out those records. [01:09:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:09:22] Speaker A: And then when you came back to it, you found out who you were again now, who you are now. And you just. You've become comfortable with being that. [01:09:28] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I think it's just all our personalities and our chemistry is just like. It's just part of the experience. And I don't really feel like we need to make new material. And also, it's like. It's almost really how I felt about it at the time when the band broke up is like, I just really, on this theme, I can't really hold my ground any harder than hold your ground, you know what I mean? I think the Civ record was like a bit of some, like, sort of afterburner vibe of, like, picking up that. That kind of character and that kind of, like, style again. But I think grill biscuits shouldn't evolve, really. [01:10:09] Speaker A: We only want the evolution of it to be on the t shirt. Right. [01:10:12] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, it doesn't go, we don't want any evolution on gorilla biscuits. And I think that was the thing. You know what I mean? Like, and I think that's kind of the blueprint for a lot of hardcore. Like, it really, people, I think, I hate to say it, don't want people to evolve very much. You know, it's a weird. [01:10:29] Speaker A: It's a weird culture because you get. You can have people like, let's say title fight, how they came up and where they've gone and then, like, glitter and all those things. It's like there's a hardcore audience. [01:10:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:10:39] Speaker A: I still think, like, I can look at glitter and be like, oh, that's hardcore. It's not like hardcore. But it comes from that perspective. The willingness to. The willingness to innovate and stay true to yourself. If you're good at what you do, people will follow you. I want to touch one more thing on gorilla biscuits, though, or. Sorry, actually, it's not gorilla biscuits themed, because I want to finish off with quicksand and where you are today. So you talked a lot about knowing your audience and, like, with gorilla biscuits, you know your audience, you know what your audience wants. And from, like, a commerce point of view, it's like, everyone is satisfied. I want to go to Gorillas biscuit show. I do want to hear first failure, but I want to hear that song. [01:11:16] Speaker B: Yeah, do we not? We play that one, everyone. I guess we don't play it. I think we switch between first failure and there's another one that's kind of exactly like it, and we just, like, flip between. I think it's a. [01:11:30] Speaker A: Competition. [01:11:32] Speaker B: Anyway, there's two of two. The songs on start today that we are just, like. They're too damn similar. We don't. We play one or the other. [01:11:38] Speaker A: First failure. I remember as a little kid. [01:11:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:11:41] Speaker A: That, like, whatever it was, whatever thing I had and coming home and just being so heartbroken and looking at those lyrics and being like, I got it. Like, this is just a failure. It's gonna be okay. I've never seen you guys play it. [01:11:54] Speaker B: But we do play it. We do. We have played it. It's a fact. I know it. If you've been let. I know. I see Arthur on stage doing that. It's been done. [01:12:04] Speaker A: Okay. You know your audience, and this goes back to early in the interview, like, being someone who's doing something. Gotta know your audience. Something I find interesting about your story is it's like, we've got a storied career. You've done some considerably and continually cool things. You also aren't afraid to play in a small band. [01:12:25] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I think. I think you just. You know, when you're doing gorilla biscuits, like, you're just setting up a sort of a tent for everyone to come in. Like, it's not really like, of course, like. Like, we're playing a pivotal role, but we're just, like, putting the name on the top of the thing that's gonna happen, and everybody's participating. Like, the reason you're going is not just to see first failure. It's because you're gonna. No, see, you're gonna see that person. You're gonna see that person. And, you know, that's the experience for me as a musician. Like, I have stuff that I want to do that I want to say. You know what I mean? Not that it's so important, but it's just, like, that's what I do. So I have to, like, I can't just, like, park up a big tent on that. I still have to, like, break things in. I still have to push these ideas and try to manifest them as best I can. [01:13:19] Speaker A: Well, dead heavens and vanishing life. Two bands that are super cool and had, like, a level of recognition but certainly didn't go on to do the things I've done with the other band. But you went out and, like, toured with these bands and did stuff with these bands. [01:13:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:13:34] Speaker A: So going back to the idea of being humble, you're someone who's been able to do some pretty wild things, but also, late in your career, you'll go play a record store that has, like, 30 people in it. [01:13:44] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think I just don't see I can play both roles in a way, but it doesn't, like, I guess I have, like, a level of, like, fame and success that I'm very comfortable with in that regard because, like, some people couldn't do that and even if they wanted to. So, you know, for me, like, those kind of things will come up and, you know, I get. If I'm, like, anxious about it or something like that, then that becomes the thing that I have to put myself. That's my work right there. Like, if, you know, I'm playing a festival solo acoustic in England next week, and I haven't played solo acoustic in a bit, so I'm a little, like, not 100% confident about it. So, like, I got. I've been starting to practice, but this week's gonna be like, I gotta practice. I gotta go do this, and I gotta do my absolute best, and so that's gonna occupy me, and I'm at the end of this experience, like, although I'm gonna be, like, concerned that it's not gonna go as well as it could, I'm in the back of my mind, I know that's gonna go well, and then I will have done something that I'm, like, was anxious about or. And all. Everything that I learn, everything that I do to, like, make sure that that show goes well is gonna serve me for the next bit of time, you know? So I'm just, like, building my, you know, as a person, you know, building, like, my personhood. But as an artist, I'm engaging, like, my own, you know, my talents, my. My. My blocks, all those kind of things. [01:15:26] Speaker A: Was there ever a point where you had to wrestle with any parts of your personality to be able to play to a small show or to play in a band that's just kind of getting off the ground or to play to not be the main person in the band. Was there any? Because you said, like, there's work. Like, there's never any wrestling with your ego you had to do? [01:15:41] Speaker B: No, I mean, I think maybe more, like when you're in the wrong place. You know what I mean? If I'm feeling like. I don't feel like. Like I'm in dead heavens, I remember playing, like, record stores and stuff like that and. Yeah, I mean, I guess that's not glamorous, you know what I mean? But, I don't know. Everyone's there and is excited for, like, what I'm doing. And, like, what I'm doing is not like they're taking a leap over to, like, something that they don't really know about, you know, because it's not like an established thing. Like, for example, like dead heavens or vanishing life. Like, those records are awesome. You know what I mean? Like, and the bands and the people that I work with are really, really good. And those experiences, like, made me not only engaged me through those times, but, like, have, like, launched me to a different place and have made it more rich and interesting for me. So even those experiences where I'm, like, hanging out with people in a more intimate level, like, yeah, I dig that. Like, I'm not, like, seeking that out all the time, but, like, it doesn't. It's like, I don't know. It would be pretty weird at this stage of the game, be like, no. I mean, there's certain things I'll say no, because I don't want to do it. It doesn't seem fun. You know what I mean? Like, it's not like I'm Jones into, like, play every record store in America. I'm not. But if it makes sense and I do it to the level of that I'm into doing it, then, you know, I'm not trying to sell anybody on that lifestyle, but, yeah, it's not. It's. I don't find that, like, you know, it doesn't. It doesn't bum me out or anything like that, you know? And maybe there's some people that would feel that way and not really shouldn't. [01:17:21] Speaker A: All right, let's. Let's go back to quicksand now. Quicksand has now put out what I think are phenomenal new rock. He's got a new one that just came out. It was this year, right? [01:17:32] Speaker B: This past year, yeah. [01:17:36] Speaker A: You already spoke to, like, the need and the desire to keep creating, so not just to be a legacy band, to be actually, like, a contemporary band. Now that you're back, you're doing tours. I know you just announced a tour coming up. What is noticeably different about the music, the business of music that wasn't or what's noticeably different from when quicksand was initially abandoned and there was that big major label boom in the alternative world? [01:18:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I think when we're talking about business and becoming aware of it, it's, like, for sure, like, how we run our thing now because, you know, similar to grill biscuits, like, we have, like, lives and different things that we're doing, so we have to, like, coordinate. Like, what are the things that we're going to pick and go do? And whereas in the past on the major labels, you know, you're part of this sort of, like, game of, like, you know, you're coordinating with their promotional teams and stuff like that, and that still exists, like, like, but the partnership with Epitaph is way more of a partnership, and they're in the music that they're on their record label for the very similar reasons that we are doing what we're doing. You know, it's like, there's no, like, people, like, riding the bench, you know what I mean? Like, everybody, it's all hands on deck all the time. So, you know, we pick our spots. We, when we're gonna do something, we get into it and try to, like, max it out creatively, and we look for ways that we can save money on doing it. And, you know, we're ethical. We pay people that work for us, like, well, and that we care about, you know, the kind of things that we should care about, I think, you know, and we're thinking about our fans and, like, what, what do what. What is our relationship to them? And, like, also, like, how would we attract new fans? Because, like, in a sense, like. [01:19:34] Speaker A: We'Re. [01:19:35] Speaker B: A contemporary band, but we also just kind of have this, like, built in, you know, fan base. But that's, that's an awesome thing to have. But still, you need to introduce yourself to new music. So, like, like, we prioritize, like, how do we get to do that but do it in a way that's, like, doesn't seem, like, too thirsty or, like. Or just, like, is a bad use of resources. [01:19:54] Speaker A: Yeah. So that idea about being thirsty, and again, for the uninitiated, thirsty, meaning desperate. Being an older band, but being contemporary and trying to build that relationship, how does someone do that? Because, you know, being an older guy that plays in, like, a, like, a straight edge band, like, yo, like, a young kid shouldn't want to take my band out for tour. Their band that's popular right now and is, like, the big band, it would be almost not weird, but if they hit me up and like, oh, I want to take change off for a tour, I'd be like, oh, that's so nice, but don't you have, like, friends your own age? Like, you're like, I. Building a relationship with a new audience. And especially when you're older, there's a lot of investment in playing a band. It's a tricky and interesting idea, but you're plugged into your audience very, very well. So how do you go about that as quicksand? [01:20:42] Speaker B: Well, I definitely have people that I think are, you know, have their sort of, like, vantage points that, you know, that I go to for advice and get their. Their opinions on certain things to kind of, like, work with my gut and, like, sort of, like, bounce off of things like that. The kind of, like, decisions, like, do we do this tour? Do we not do this? Like, how do we. But I think the very basic level is, like, our relationship between the three of us to the music that we're creating. Because, like, if we're really backing this music, I mean, there's nothing worse than, like. I mean, luckily, I've not really been in this situation, but, like, if you're playing bullshit music and then you gotta go promote it every night, it's just gotta be a nightmare. [01:21:23] Speaker A: Oh, my God. [01:21:24] Speaker B: You know, and I'm not saying I'm not, like, being snooty about it. Like, sometimes you just. That's the way it is. You know what I mean? And then it's your challenge to get through that shitty time and make some better music. But for us, it's like, we're really, like, working on this music. So, like, if it's the greatest music to other people or not to us, it, like, represents, like, our best effort. So, like, it behooves us to, like, take care of everything that we do, and it also behooves us to, you know, we want people to hear it and be a part of this, like, sort of, I mean, thing with bands and, you know, any sort of product, I suppose not any sort of product, but you're. You're helping to create stories. You know what I mean? There's, like, ancillary, like, social reactions and things that happen because you're putting forward this thing. You know what I mean? Like, you're talking about the first failure or whatever. Like, your experience with that song is like, something that spins off in your life, but it's like, it's coming because there's these, you know. You know, our relationships to the songs are really good. [01:22:34] Speaker A: Yeah. All right, so we're heading towards the end of the interview, I got a few questions I want to ask. The first is, and again, this might be a little sensitive. I want to talk about how to get the best result with a group of people. So going back, like, when Wally sings the hits, that bootleg cd came out, I was like, oh, what? I can't believe he had to track the vocals. [01:22:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:22:56] Speaker A: Later on to go on Maya bands where I've had to, like, unless I'm the singer, I track vocals for people all the time. And I went on to do that many times. It's just like, that's an understood part of it. And if you're in music, you'll understand that. That maybe the songwriter and the lyricist are actually the same thing, and the singer comes in and learns it. So as a leader in a band or kind of a creative center of a band, how have you gone about getting the best takes from people and making sure that what they're bringing in isn't phoned in and actually, like, pushing people past their breaking point? [01:23:29] Speaker B: I mean, as. I mean, I do that more as a producer, and I definitely got my experience through working with Don and Civ in GB. Like, that, how the conversation, how you, like, get the best out of each other and keep it fun because it's definitely. Singing is very, like, 3d. Like, playing guitar. Like, I can do guitar tracks and beat, of course, frustrated with my hands, not doing what I want it to do. But singing is, like, way harder because there's just so much. There's so much to it. The feeling is such an important thing. Not only the execution, but the temper of your voice. All these kind of things come into play. I think having taste is a thing. And being able to communicate, like, you know, when I'm working with someone else, like, what is it that I like about this person? Like, what is it? What. What is the qualities that they have? That, to me, gets me excited. And I can remember with Civ early on, his voice cracked, and he didn't do that on purpose, but we were like, that rules. So, like, you know, we kind of, like, wanted that to happen here and there. You know what I mean? And so that's a thing that builds character. It's like we. Finding out what you like in the other person helps you to draw out those kind of qualities and, like. And I think just being a good communicator is, you know, to where that person doesn't feel beat by it. You know what I mean? Because I've been in that situation, too. Like, someone is hearing something from me that maybe I don't even like about. You know, they're, like, trying to get something out of me, a part of me that I'm not willing to give up or I don't think that's a cool part of me. You know what I mean? So I'm resisting that sort of thing, and rightly or wrongly, and so that person needs to kind of get a sense of that and come at it from a different angle. Try to beat me or. You know what I mean? I think that's how people work with each other. And so it's like. And sometimes you just leave it alone and go to something else, maybe come back to it another time and just getting, you know, it's just kind of like people skills, I suppose. [01:25:44] Speaker A: These are therapist skills. [01:25:46] Speaker B: Yeah, a little bit. [01:25:47] Speaker A: I don't know if you know this about me. I'm a therapist by training, and then by trade, I'm a coach, a business coach. So what you just talked about is how I work with leaders. [01:25:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:25:57] Speaker A: And one of the things, because I think of, like, someone doesn't have to be the best singer to be the best singer for that band. And if I think of, like, someone doesn't have to be a natural singer. So I think a sib. I think it's like there's no one else in the world that could be the front person of that band. That's the front person of that band. Cause singing is super complex, as you said. But then singing live is different. How you engage with the crowd, how you bring people along. The guy is, like, iconic singer, but might not have been the most natural singer and had to get coached and mentored and led along the way until he kind of found his feet. Getting the best results from people isn't about finding the person who's the most talented. It's the person who's most willing to play in the playground and push themselves and learn. And of course, there has to be some talent there, but their willingness to allow that to be, like, molded until they can mold it themselves. And I think that, like, that, to me, is part stands out to me as probably why you've gone on to be able to be really strong in production and help people. Cause of some of those lessons you learned early on. [01:26:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I've been on the other side of it, you know? And, you know, like, where there's gonna be parts of yourself that you don't really want to. To come out, you know, I mean, that you don't necessarily want to share with people and there's things that people are trying to project upon you, you know what I mean? That it's just like they're barking up the wrong tree. Like, that's not me, babe, you know what I mean? [01:27:17] Speaker A: And I hope you've said that to someone one time. Yeah, sorry, that's not me, babe. [01:27:24] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Because sometimes, you know, and that's. That's a point of block. Of a block which you want to avoid, you know what I mean? You don't want to. When you feel a block coming, you got to, like, sense that and kind of get away from it. Or maybe sometimes you have to, like, respect somebody's, like, boundaries, you know what I mean? Like, there's a. There's definitely a level of, like, pushing someone to their. Be their best to, like, you know, break, you know? Yeah. Not respecting people's boundaries. And I think you people are more likely to take those risks when you build up trust with them, you know what I mean? And sometimes that trust is inherent, like, in the fact that you've hired someone to come in and do something because you admire their work, so you trust them already. So you don't. You can skip a bunch of steps, but that'll break down once you get at some point, usually, yeah. [01:28:21] Speaker A: All right, last three questions for you, man. The first is, well, actually, let's start with easy because they're going to get way harder. All right, so the first is anything that you want to hype, point people to. Where can people find you? Anything that you want to share from that perspective? [01:28:37] Speaker B: I'm pretty focused on quicksand right now. So, like, anything related to quicksand, this is a cool band that you should check out. It's guitar music, and we do some kind of interesting musical passages and cool rhythms, and I think anybody could kind of like it. [01:28:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I would agree. I think anyone who likes guitar music, and I like that term you just used would definitely like quicksand. All right, second question. This is hard, but it's not that hard because you've already talked about it. Why was Captain Kirk such a great leader? [01:29:11] Speaker B: Captain Kirk just. I think he knows he's charismatic, so he's easy to follow, he's fun to be around. He has faults that you can see, and he's not a afraid to, like, make fun of himself. I think he's most. He's you know, he's courageous. He's willing to take a hit for the team. He's willing to make tough decisions. I think the strongest quality that he has is how he befriends his crew and utilizes them not to his own, you know? Cause his job is to, like, make sure everything kind of works out at the end. And we can. Everybody's alive, and he trusts his people, and he gives them the autonomy to, like, do their jobs. You know, they're very, you know, specialized, yet there's an intimacy there. They're not. Like, you could have specialized departments, but there's not a connecting factor. But he is like, he's. I'm sure he could go out to dinner with Scotty, have a great time. He could go out with Spock, like, anytime by themselves. They probably have their own jokes and, you know, all of those guys, and I think he's definitely, like, my career in music, I think, was inspired by. By Star Trek, and I'm down to play. I think sometimes I can be kirk, sometimes I'm Spock. You know, I can do sulu. Like, I'm. I'm. I can appreciate all those different roles. I can wear a red shirt. That's not my favorite. It's a dangerous shirt to wear, but I can wear a blue or a mustard. [01:30:58] Speaker A: All right, man, last question, and it might be easy for you. It might be tough. So I could ask you a lot of music questions. I'm going to ask you a business question. What were the three biggest mentors in your life learning how to do the business of being a musician? [01:31:14] Speaker B: Um, the first one that popped into my mind was capo, although his business style is pretty cuckoo. But I think he's probably. He's. He probably is. I'm sure he's a lot better at it now, but just that he was. If we needed. If something needed to happen, he would make it happen. Like, he would find the right people, get them, put them together, shake him around, and then the thing would happen. So I think that, like, idea of, like, of taking the initiative and seeing the. That sometimes you just gotta, like, call this person, call that person, and it's done. Like, why are you freaking out? I think that he's really, really great at that. Other business people, I guess I've admired the drummers in my bands. Like, generally, the drummers are always the dudes that, like, follow the money and kind of look after that. And, you know, there's people that have been in my bands that are businessmen. Like, Siv's a businessman. He does. He's been doing a great business for like 20 years. And you know, I know there's a, there's a lot, you know, when you have an actual store, an entrepreneur that there's, there's all kinds of crap that can, can happen. So those, those are kind of like the people that have influenced me or you know, I guess on a sort of, yeah, my kind of like personal business. I've just kind of evolved into just taking more care of it. I think it's certainly probably becoming apparent this being where like money counts more. [01:32:54] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Hell yeah. [01:32:55] Speaker B: Making sure shit's together. [01:32:56] Speaker A: Yeah, hell yeah. All right, well, listen, Walter, this has been an awesome conversation. Anything you want to add in before we close off? [01:33:02] Speaker B: I hope this is our conversation is of help, service or whatever. Some business. It's interesting to talk about things from this angle. [01:33:10] Speaker A: Hell yeah, man. Dude, absolutely. It's a huge pleasure. So everyone, I'll see you in the outro. And Spencer, drop the beat. You know, like I said earlier, you got to come up in a culture and you're like, I guess when you're young you're like, oh, I want to meet, you know, the people who really, you know, put all this great music or art into the world. And then you meet a few of them and you're like, oh God, I don't want to meet anyone anymore. Walter is just like a great example of how that can, that's the opposite sometimes. And someone really is awesome. And Walter, love you, man. I really appreciate your time. You know, it's always interesting to me when we have on the podcast we'll have business leaders one week and the next week we'll have an artist or a painter or a musician. And all of these things, they really have the same through line which is leadership business. We heard so much today about being a leader and how sometimes that leadership role just falls into your lap. And we also heard so many times about, about doing good business, smart business. And both of those things have one thing in common which is just really understanding who you are and staying true to that throughout. And that can be whether you're playing in front of five people or in front of 5000 people. And that could be whether you're an individual contributor or leading a big business segment, knowing who you are and staying true to that while also growing and evolving over time. That's at the core of everything. I know it sounds like easy, it's like corny, like, oh, be yourself. But actually really being yourself and staying true to that in a healthy way is so vital to really being good at leading and doing great at whatever you put your mind to. Walter is an incredible example of that. So, once again, Walter, thanks so much for your time and for all the inspiration over the years. Everyone, I'll see you next time. My name is Aram Marslanian, and this is one step beyond what.