Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: So you start bulleth you in a hole with two amazing, wonderful record labels ran by great people, Revelation and Equal Vision, who merch now wonderful. Like, I love the people involved with both of those. And they're stalwarts, like, rock solid, but you're heavily in debt with them. Start Bullet Tooth. You got some people who come with you. You've got new bands. You dig yourself out of the. Out of the Debt.
How does Trustkill coming back to you go?
[00:00:28] Speaker B: I dug myself out. Like I was saying, probably around 2015, I was finally like, in a good spot.
Spotify was the thing in the States, right?
We started making money on streaming. Then all of a sudden we start. Everyone starts pivoting to focus on streaming.
And then I just had this idea to go back to Universal and be like, hey, you're not doing anything with these records that are on your books that are heavily debt ridden.
You don't know these bands from any other band. These are just line items on your books.
The Debt is so old that I am certain that you have written it off by now.
So I think I've seen this before. But, like, one of the problems with all these bigger records from the 2000s was that we did spend a lot of money on them.
So if you look at bands from other labels, like, whether it's Victory or Metal Blade or Epitaph or whoever it is, you know, if a label spent a half a million dollars on your record in the 2000s, it's probably a pretty good chance that you're not seeing royalties from it today. You're just recouping, probably in perpetuity, because, you know, some records are streaming a lot, some aren't, you know, who knows? But so my pitch to them was like, listen, let's figure out a way for me to get this all back.
Let me do what I do and invest my time and effort and money into these albums and so that we can all make money.
Me, the bands, the distributor, everybody.
And that took a couple years because it was a really, like, crazy idea. They're like, well, what do you mean? Like, I remember it was funny. It was around. I. I thought this stuff would. This would have. This was going to happen in like 2020, right? Like, I was like, two years in. I'm like, all right. I finally got, you know, the president to. He met with a cfo and then they, you know, this is like a publicly traded company too. So, like, there's a lot of details.
And I was finally like, in a good spot. I'm like, all Right. I think this might happen in, like, 2020. And then Covid happened, and then, you know, they had so many of their own problems, like, trying to figure out how they're gonna pay the rent. And by 2021, I was pretty certain it was gonna happen.
And I started the process of, like, oh, shit, like, if this happens, like, what am I actually gonna do, right?
Like, how do I. Where do I even begin? I mean, I have.
I have archives, like, filing cabinets. Four giant filing cabinets filled with masters and, like, tapes and, like, unreleased stuff and, like, just wild shit that, like, I have not looked at or opened in 15 years, right? 10, 15 years.
So it all came together, and I. I finalized the deal with Universal in July of 2022.
It was the day I showed up. And this is Hardcore was, like, the day it happened. So it was, like, pretty monumentous occasion for me to be, like, standing there. This is Hardcore. And I'm like, start telling everyone. I'm, like, told Joe Hardcore. And I told Scott Lee, and I'm like, I just got Thrust Kill back. And everyone's like, holy. Like, what do you mean? How did you do that?
But what's crazy is, like, back up a bit in, like, 2020, 21. I'm like. I started telling, like, a select few people, like, what I was working on. And I remember telling, like, James from 18 divisions about it. And he goes.
He was like, oh, dude, that sounds so smart. Smart. Like, why wouldn't they do that? Like, why wouldn't they agree to that? And I was like, I know. Like, I. I feel the same way. Like, it's. It's a great idea. Like, let's get these records out of the, you know, the netherworld, and, like, you know, do remixes and box sets and vinyl releases. Like, all this that we should have been doing this whole time.
And then I told Carl from. Carl Severson from, you know, Ferret and Good Fight, the same thing. And he goes, why the hell would they do that? Like, he had, like, the opposite thought. Like, that would be crazy. Like, why would they just give you your record label back? So, yeah, people had, you know, different mixed opinions about it, but, yeah, and then I just hit the ground running in 2022. I just, you know, started talking to bands and being like, hey, we should do this, and, hey, why don't we remix this record? And so remember, back to the Hopes Fall Story.
All the bonus tracks from all these albums that were released overseas in the 2000s were all missing from streaming sites, and a lot of albums were Just completely missing entirely because most of the labels I had signed licensing deals with in the 2000s were bankrupt, out of business, gone. Albums were just dropping out, license deals are expiring. So there was just like a lot of work to be done with the catalog to get, you know, like, fixing, you know, like the album covers were uploaded at like 144 pixels right in the 2000s. And like, no one ever bothered to like fix that because no one was paying attention. No one gave a. Until I, you know, got it all back. So I'm like, all right, we gotta like, you know, high res artwork and like, let's fix this and add all the bonus tracks and add live tracks. And so now I'm just, I, I have, I'm like way in it now.
So working with basically like every trust kill band on something, Box set, vinyl release, remixes, new albums, whatever it might be.
[00:06:36] Speaker A: So what's the deal though? Like, how did you get it back? What had to happen here? Like, did you have to pay them something? Did they get like, what can you tell me about it?
[00:06:44] Speaker B: I didn't, I didn't have to pay them anything. I just, I convinced them that if you give them back to me and you let me do what I do, I am going to, I'm going to add value to all these records. And you're going, like, when I say you, I mean Universal.
Well, it's actually Virgin now. You know, I'm gonna double the streaming worldwide, right? And they're gonna.
[00:07:10] Speaker A: So they, they still own the records?
[00:07:13] Speaker B: Well, I own the records. We, we signed a jv, right, So a joint venture so that I own everything, but I'm still distributed by Universal, right, so.
[00:07:25] Speaker A: Okay, so they're, they're making money where, where they weren't before making any money.
[00:07:30] Speaker B: Yes, but also they're making more money because I'm, I, I'm adding songs. I'm just putting out more records. I'm doing all the stuff that I do to grow records that were sitting there doing nothing.
[00:07:45] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, man, that's awesome. Like, congratulations. Like, and then.
[00:07:49] Speaker B: Oh. So the royalty rates from on all these records to the bands in the 2000s were, you know, 15, 18, you know, maybe 25 max. Right.
And that's because, you know, we were giving bands vacant dances and spending $50,000 on a music video or, you know, whatever crazy money I was spending. But now that the debt is gone, Right, So my, my deal with Universal was like, listen, we got to do 50, 50 deals for every band, every record, and I want to pay Them monthly.
So I made all that happen, too.
Pulled all those records out of the netherworld, and every band is on a 5050 deal.
So. Yeah. That's awesome.
[00:08:43] Speaker A: Well, congratulations. It's a great story arc. And, you know, I don't know if you think this or if you hear this, but again, it's just being like, kind of your audience and watching this from the sidelines. I think it's take a lot of guts to do all that. And to you, it might have just been instinct, like, well, no, I'm going to do this. And you might not have thought it that way, but, like, to have such a huge height and a big crash rebuild, but then to not forget the past and be like, I'm going to go back and make that right, at least for myself, that takes a lot, a lot of guts, man. So, you know, congratulations.
[00:09:17] Speaker B: Thank you. Yeah.
[00:09:18] Speaker A: So let's hit on something I'm super curious about. I'm going to bring up Chris from Left 4 Dead.
[00:09:25] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:09:25] Speaker A: You know, he had that. He had the magical vegan bacon grease and Parmageddon and all those, like, vegan things he made.
[00:09:33] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah.
[00:09:35] Speaker A: So he had this. He had this company that was like, early days vegan food company, like, stuff that you just couldn't get. And he just, like, made it, and it's kind of like a version of a record label. You know, he, like, built up this business, and then it started getting carried by, like, Whole Foods and all this kind of stuff. And he hit this crossroads where, like, big business was starting to swoop into the vegan world. Like, you know, the immersion vegan, vegan market.
And he had to make a decision. Do I, like, go all in and try and, like, make this a business with, like, all of this money from, like, big businesses, or do I just keep it to myself? And him and I were talking on the podcast, like, a few years ago, and I was like, hey, man. Like, why? Like, what happened? Like, why didn't you do that? And his answer was, I thought, like, probably one of the best answers anyone's ever told me on this podcast. He was like.
He was like, you know, when I was young, I loved the idea of. When I was first vegan, I love the idea of, like, what if vegan food was everywhere and everyone knew about veganism and you could go anywhere and get vegan stuff? He's like, I loved that idea. He's like, but now that that's starting to become a reality, it's not that I don't love that idea. I just don't love how big businesses and their money are involved in it. And he's like, the thing about big business is they don't care about having the meat eater's money, they don't care about having the vegans money, they don't care about having the vegetarians money. They care about having all of the money and that's all they care about. None of this is because they care about this stuff. It's not coming from a good place. It's not about the environment, it's not about the animals.
[00:11:05] Speaker B: It's.
[00:11:06] Speaker A: It's about how do we get every single person's money. And he was like, I just have an issue supporting. Supporting anything that creates an oligarchy. And it was like I was interviewing him and another guy. Like, we were talking about emerging markets, like, like getting like, what's it like to start a small thing that suddenly gets a bunch of like, venture capital in it? And it was like one of the best articulate answers I'd had. And it's really stuck with me about all of these people that I've met. Who are these small business people who. And I'm not just talking about punk and hardcore. It could be someone who has medical technology or someone who is this or someone who has that, who starts something that's cool and it's unique and suddenly it starts becoming a success and big money comes in and it's like, is that a good thing? Does that help? Does that help in the end? So I know that was like kind of like a left turn. Bring Chris into the conversation. But just for the context of it, it's like trustkill was your thing and it was cool as hell. It was yours. It was unique. It was you and your friends, you built this thing. And then the knock of Sony comes.
I know it did a lot of stuff for you, but in retrospect, any thoughts on any negative influences of all that big money being involved?
[00:12:18] Speaker B: Oof. I mean, not really, no. I mean, I.
I took everything with a grain of salt, right? Like, I, again, I saw it as like a Robin Hood thing where I would take their money and spend it on hardcore bands.
And, you know, when I started having a lot of success at Sony and records are selling 50,000 copies, 100,000 copies, all of a sudden they're like, well, hang on a second.
You're selling more records than the Sony proper labels, right? Meaning Sony Records, Columbia Records, right? So they were signing bands to Columbia, right? Like Matt Kinfield would sign a band to Columbia and they'd say, hey, do you want to, like, help put out this first record so that we can, like, get the band from 0 to 100 and then once you do that, we'll take over.
And I always said no, because it was never the right band.
So it was kind of like a little like, push and pull thing, right? Like, they, they wanted a lot out of me. They, like, when I first got there, they wanted me to, like, spend like, a hundred thousand dollars, like, right off the bat to put ads in all the trade magazines.
And I said, absolutely not. I said, I'm not spending one penny on a trade magazine because no one of those trade magazines gives a about hardcore or my hardcore bands. And it's not going to move the needle, right? Like, I don't care about putting an ad in CMJ magazine or like, whatever. It was. Like, there's all these different things, right? Like.
Like they were talking about me spending money to make people in the business aware of my records. And I said, no. I go, I'm gonna make hardcore kids aware of my records.
You're gonna put the record in the store. They're gonna go buy it. I don't need to spend all that money. So I just didn't. And they, like, it would get kind of mad. They'd be like, well, all other labels are doing this. And I'm like, great, think of something else. That's not how I'm spending marketing money, right? Like, I.
I want to press 100,000 CD samplers and pass them out by myself at Warp Tour, right? Like, that's what I did.
And that, to me, made a way bigger difference than putting some, you know, making some trade at in, like, Polestar or, you know, whatever it was.
[00:14:55] Speaker A: You're not against the big business bringing in the money, but it's about, like, how you hold your ground with the. With the. With the big money.
[00:15:01] Speaker B: Of course. Yeah. And like, you know, when I got to Sony in 2002, they were distributing Victory Metal Blade and Epitaph, who were like, three of the biggest labels going at the time.
And they were like, you know, they're like, oh, we're definitely gonna make trust kill a big thing. And I'm like, great, let's do it. But I'm gonna make sure you're spending the money the right way.
So, you know, every penny that was spent was because I okayed it.
And I remember they had to, like, bend a lot for me, right? They had to do things differently for me than they would do for anyone else, right? So, perfect example.
When I. When they sent me the deal. It was for, you know, exclusive worldwide distribution, as you would expect, right? And I said, that doesn't work for me.
And they're like, well, what do you mean? We're giving you all this money.
We need to have exclusive rights. And I go, that's great, but I need to still sell my records to Revelation, because you're only like. Your concern is putting CDs on the end cap at Best Buy. And that's great for some of my records at the right time, Right?
But I was like, for the most part, I need to have records at the distro tables, at hardcore shows and at vintage vinyl and at all these record stores that you guys don't distribute to. So we're gonna figure this out, and we're gonna carve out any store that you don't distribute to.
I have the right to have Revelation sell it to them.
And that took a while. And their lawyers were like, well, why would we do that? That's crazy. And I was like, well, then there's no deal.
But I can't just jump ship. I can't completely jump out of the hardcore world to Sony and just forget about everything I was doing. Like, that can't happen.
[00:17:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:02] Speaker B: So they made the deal totally different. Just for me.
[00:17:05] Speaker A: I'm going to go to a different space. So a lot of our conversation has to do with, like, friends and your circle of friends and, like, building this thing up.
And at one point, you know, the label's like, big, big. And you got, like, a lot of bands and, you know, people in general, not just in trustscale, people in general have expectations of what they want and how they're going to be treated. And I've been in bands that have done well. I've also ran record labels with bands that have done, to the degree of the record label, like, relatively well.
I've kind of been on both sides of it, and I've been the band member who has these expectations that, like, hey, I want this thing, and sometimes saying it in a super cool way, and those expectations are realistic and sometimes saying it in a shithead way, and the expectations are shithead. I've also been on the receiving end of that, of people being cool about their expectations and they're realistic and then also being morons about it, and their expectations are moronic.
So going to the relationship part, I'm thinking of, like, specifically the. The last Bleeding through record, the Declaration record, There was some smoke there with Trust Kill. And I know those guys were also like, long term Friends of yours. So, like, tell me not. It doesn't have to be about that thing, but, like, what about when the. The money's getting bigger, the sales are getting bigger? Like, how did you manage your relationships?
[00:18:29] Speaker B: There it was. I mean, it's tough because bands have a lot of expectations, right?
And Declaration is like that perfect example that I was talking about before, where that was their third album for Trust Kill, right? And we had expectations, and we're like, okay, the first one did 150,000, and then the truth did, like, 100 or 125,000 or whatever it was. And so we were hoping Declaration would be really big, but it came out at the end of the 2000s, and it didn't sell as much, right? So that was rough, especially considering that I signed the band in 2002 or 3, 2002, and it was a really fair deal with some big advances.
But, of course, this is Love, this is Murderous, came out and, you know, blew the roof off. So I certainly didn't have to do this. But I renegotiated their deal to give them much bigger advances for the next album, for the Truth and for Declaration.
And by the time they were due, the advance for Declaration, money got kind of tight. And like I was saying, the distributors were like, hang on a second. You're giving them how much money for this record? There's no chance it's going to sell that many. Like, they knew, right? Like I kind of knew. But the distributors were like, we're seeing it with every single one of our albums. Like, you're not going to sell that many CDs. There just weren't even as many opportunities anymore at retail. It just wasn't even possible anymore. So I had to do a lot of convincing and a lot of, you know, a lot of meetings. But I eventually got the money to give to the band that they were due, which, in hindsight was way too much money. The.
That would have all gone a lot smoother had the band come to me and said, hey, are you ready to do the next album? I would have said, well, hang on, I need to get the money first. And that might have taken a couple months, but they just, like, hopped in the studio and started recording an album. They didn't even tell me, right? They're like, oh, yeah, we're recording a record. I was like, wait, what? So I was kind of, like, kind of, like, taken off guard by that.
And they needed the advance and they needed to pay the producer, and I was like, holy. So I'm like, flying to la and I'm like, I need this money and we gotta do this. And so.
But it was fine.
I got a new Bleeding through record coming out in a few months, so.
[00:21:08] Speaker A: Yeah. And so I'm not just talking about Bleeding through and, like, shout out to those guys. Like, I've been, you know, when I was younger and when I was playing a lot in bands, I was friendly with those guys, especially their guitar player, Brian, who I, I just really, really, really, like, a lot.
[00:21:23] Speaker B: Brian's awesome.
[00:21:24] Speaker A: All of them. Yeah, they're all, they're all, they're all nice people at that time, again, like, you know, I, I, I was friendly with them. So I was just watching it. This is like, during MySpace, and I was like, kind of watching it unfold on MySpace and I was like, it's kind of like a wild thing because it's like, much bigger level of record sales and success and money that than something that I had any experience with. So it's like, I'm not too quick to judge on that. I was more like, I wonder what's going to happen? And I know that time has, has, has, has healed and all of that, which is cool. But also I just want to hit on, like, because there are also bands that went on to, like, other labels and all those things. So, like, how did you manage that with, with your friendships?
[00:22:07] Speaker B: I mean, it's. To be, to be in this business for as long as I've been in, you have to learn, you have to try to be excited for, like, if I sign a band, I put out two or three records and they sell X and then they sign to a different label and they sell double that, should I be salty about that or should I be excited that I signed a band that ultimately went on to sell twice as many records than I did?
So there's been a lot of that, like, trying to not, you know, feel salty towards the dudes for just, like, trying to, you know, like, the grass is greener mentality. Like, what, what else was out there? Right? Like, every band has that mentality at some point, you know? Like, by the time Trust kill ended in 2010, I'd already put out like six walls of Jericho records, right?
Like, was I really gonna put out their seventh record? I mean, like, it was probably about time for them to go see what else was out there, I guess is my point. Right?
And, you know, I mean, yeah, I was just trying to feel happy, like, like, with 18 visions, like, they signed a rise and I'm like, great. Like, you know, that's awesome. Like Rise is the, you know, I hope that they, that they become the biggest band in the world, you know, like that makes the records that I put out even cooler. Right. If they become even bigger.
So yeah, I try to just like not, you know, lose sleep over that stuff.
[00:23:57] Speaker A: It's hard though, right?
[00:23:58] Speaker B: It's hard. Yeah, it's hard. Yeah.
[00:24:03] Speaker A: You know, I. Behind me, this is like I'm dating myself here. But I had this small record label that I did for a long time and the most the band that kind of did the best of all of them.
I had an initial rule where I'd only press a 7 inch one time and that was it. Because I wanted the records to kind of be like you had to be there and know about it to find it. And the 7 inch did well and the band understandably was like, hey, we want it repressed on a different record label. And I like was just like, oh my gosh, like I can't believe it. It was like this big. Like fine, I'll repress the record. And I felt like I was like compromising something and now I'm just laughing like, wow, idiotic. That was. But this band went on to do a bunch of stuff and then a friend of mine, record label wanted to sign them and I was like personally offended. Like really, like I put so much time, so much effort and so much love into this band. Like who is this guy? And of course like when I was talking to the band I was like, do what you got to do. But I was like bummed. And luckily I think this, I think everything went the right way. The story was they end up staying, they did their, all their. All the records on the label and actually the singer of the band ended up taking over the record label. I did at the time and like making it his own. And you know, it had a nice ending the story. But I looking back at that time and being like, dude, I was so immersed in it that like I couldn't detach my own love for that band from being like, hey, maybe you should actually do this. This might be good for you.
So I can't imagine at your like the level that you're doing stuff plus the length of the relationships you have to those guys. That must have been hard. Like a hard discipline to keep.
[00:25:42] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean if you look at, if you look at 18 visions and poison, the well are two good examples, right? Like I could have put out Obsession and the self titled album on Trust Kill alone.
But I, you know, got together with the Band we decided to, like, you know, we use the word upstream, right? But we upstream the band to Epic so that it could be like a Trust Kill Sony release.
And so, like, I could do what I do, right? And then Sony can do what they do and hopefully the band would sell five times as many records or whatever. The hope was the same thing with Poison the well, right? Like you come before, you could have been on Trust Kill, but we upstreamed it to Atlantic, you know, like, I did the vinyl, they did the cd, they spent some money on radio.
Yeah, I think those are good examples of, like, trying to move forward, trying to keep everybody happy.
You know, when any band starts selling a bunch of records or, you know, now we use the word hype or selling tickets or, you know, how are we quantify success?
You know, there's going to be managers and booking agents and all these people are going to come knock in and they're going to have their own ideas and they're going to go, well, this worked for this band. I think it can work for your band, so you should go do this. And everyone's talking in everyone's ears.
So, yeah, I mean, it's, you know, it's tough.
Are you familiar with no Sleep Records? Chris Hansen? Yeah.
[00:27:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:33] Speaker B: So I hired Chris Hansen in 2005 or 6 to be my graphic designer. At that point I was designing 100% of everything, but was crazy back then. And I was like, trying to, like, you know, hire a salesperson and the design person. And so Chris moved out from LA to New Jersey to work in my basement. And that's when he started no Sleep Records and I started distributing his label. At first I gave him a digital distribution deal and.
And he signed some really cool bands. The Wonder Years and Hot Mulligan and Balancing Composure. He did some really cool stuff and he only lasted with me for like two years and then he moved back to la.
And I remember talking to him and he was, you know, starting to have some problems, some growing pains.
And I remember just being like, dude, you think you got growing pains now? I was like, you have a record that sold 5,000 copies.
I was like, shit's gonna get wild if you sell 50 or 100,000. Like, wait till you see who starts coming out of the woodwork and, like, talking to these bands and convincing them to jump ship and, you know, all this stuff. So, like, remember having that conversation with him just about, like, you know, the problems of the label only get bigger when the band starts selling more records.
[00:29:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
So when you're Playing at the highest of levels. Like, what's the thing that keeps it all going then?
[00:29:14] Speaker B: I mean, the hope is that I still love the band.
I still love the records I'm putting out. I mean, if I don't, then that's, you know, then I wouldn't know what to do.
But luckily, I've never had an ANR guy, right? I know other labels at my level, right? Like Victory Equal, Vision, Metal Blade, they all had and still have A R guys helping them out. I never did, right? So if a band signed the Trust Kill, that was because I signed them.
Or Bullet Tooth, right? Like I. I signed every band, so in theory, I loved every record I was working on.
And it wasn't like working at a major or distributor where you're forced to push some record to retail or radio that you just don't like. You don't give a about.
I loved all the records. So no matter how hard it ever got, no matter how much arguing I was doing with a manager or, you know, whatever it was, it was like, at the end of the day, I love this band. If I sign them, I need to see this. You need to through, and I need to make sure that it's successful and that everybody's happy.
[00:30:29] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. All right, man. So we're coming to the closing of the interview, but before we get to the very end, tell me what's up with Trustkill now in the future. So what's. What's happening today and what's going to be happening in the near future?
[00:30:40] Speaker B: Great question. I just signed the first new band to trust kill since 2008.
And it was crazy because I didn't even realize until I.
So I got Trust go back in 2022. I've been so busy with the catalog and with bands that were already signed, the Trust Kill, that I just haven't signed a new band for various reasons. One, I'm busy with everything.
But also, there hasn't been the right band. Right. The right band at the right time. And I can't give it away just yet, but I signed a new band and we're gonna drop an album on the 4th of July, Friday, the 4th of July, which is very exciting to have, like, new blood and just a band that, like, I am 100% into.
It's really cool. And it's funny because I, you know, I went into like, you know, my files to like, you know, I. I, you know, I do all my own legal work, right? So I was like, creating the contract and that's when I Like, looked in the folder and I was like, oh, I haven't signed a new band to trust kill since 2008. Because, like, whatever bands were putting out records at the end of the 2000s, I had signed them and, you know, the early to mid 2000s.
And then I didn't really sign any bands after 2008 because by the time 2009 rolled around, like, I knew was over, right? So I wasn't gonna do that to any band.
I waited probably a year before I started signing new bands to Bullet Youth.
But so that's very exciting to me to have a new band with a new album.
It's very cool.
I am working on so much cool stuff with bands that were signed to Trust Kill.
So there's things coming out in the next six months from Terror Walls of Jericho leading through It Dies Today.
This is Hell Harvest.
So much cool stuff.
Then I also just announced the return of Hellfest, which is very exciting.
That's been probably another two to three years in the making. When I was like, like, I woke up in the middle of the night one night and I was like, huh, I wonder if I could bring back Hellfest. How would I do that?
So that's been, like, again, like, two years in the making. But we announced some. There was, like, some teasers a few weeks ago. It's going to be 4th of July weekend in New Jersey, and we have the very first teaser going out for the fest tomorrow, which is really cool.
[00:33:42] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, man.
So is Keith at all involved?
[00:33:46] Speaker B: Keith is involved.
I mean, I, you know, I'm like the marketing and branding guy. And I told Keith, I was like, listen, the shit that went down in 2005 kind of hurt my brand, right? Because, like, how fast 2004 was the last one in New Jersey. That was a Trust Kill Presents. It was all Trust kill presents from 2000 to 2004.
After 2004, I pulled out because I was like, there's a lot of liability. I felt like, especially, like, with the bad luck 13 riot that happened.
And I was so busy with Trust Kill. I had bands on Oz fast. There was just so much crazy happening. I also wasn't really jiving with other dudes that were involved with hellfest in, like, 2003, 3 and 4. So, like, the Radio Takeover guys, they had weird ideas and this wasn't, like, meshing. So I told Keith, I was like, listen, next year I'm just gonna, like, buy a merch table and that's gonna be it.
So I wasn't involved in 2005. And then it got canceled.
And that really, like, hurt Trust Kill because everyone assumed I was involved, even though there was no Trust Kill logo on anything.
So bringing it back, I told Keith, I'm like, listen, Hellfest and Trust Kill are, like, inextricably connected, right? There's almost no.
Almost no division there. So I was like, I have to really separate myself from what happened in 2005.
And this is Trust Kill Presents Hellfest. And everyone knows what that means. There's also the.
The fact that the French promoter just took the name and ran with it in the 2010s, right?
For good reason. It's a great name, right?
We weren't doing anything with it. Keith let go. There was never a trademark.
Keith let go of the dot com at some point.
And so. But bringing it back was a little complicated because I'm like, all right, well, they're Hellfest open air.
This needs to be Trust Kill Presents Hellfest.
There was a guy cyber squatting the dot com that had to, you know, get. I had to get lawyers and trademark attorneys and had to pay a lot of money to get all that back. But. But, yeah, so we're doing. We're doing an event is called Hellfira, which is what's going to happen in July. So, like, have you heard of A Fear of Records? It's like the new kind of, like, young hardcore metalcore label, and it's run by the singer for Balmora, and he did a fest last year called, like, the Ethera Showcase, which is essentially exactly what we were doing with Hellfest in the early years.
So our idea was like, let's kind of put it all together and do Hellfira. And it's kind of like old meets new, right? So this fest is going to be, like, headliners that you would expect, but, like, the undercard is all stacked with, like, the young bands that are out there killing it right now. And then we're also going to do a Hellfest 2020 5th anniversary show in Syracuse this summer with some bands that played Hellfest 2000. Right. And that were on the DVD. We're gonna screen the DVD.
I'm gonna have Keith curate like, a Hellfest museum of, like, all his cool that he has, and that'll be cool. It's gonna be like a smaller thing because the, you know, like, the market in Syracuse is a bit smaller now than it was back then.
But, yeah, then I got a lot of ideas.
Summer 2026, I have ideas to do something on the West Coast.
So, yeah, very cool.
[00:38:01] Speaker A: Man, I'm glad to hear that. You know, I.
[00:38:06] Speaker B: Go ship, go ship will of course, be playing, you know, Keith's band.
[00:38:12] Speaker A: Yeah, I like to hear that. Not that the past is everything at all. I mean, of course I like that you're merging the past with a current label, but I think it might escape people who weren't there at the time. That Hell Fest, positive numbers, Crazy Fest were very unique in being. There really wasn't a fest scene in punk hardcore, at least in hardcore at all. And, I mean, there was Warped Tour, but that was just on a totally different level, what those three fests did. And if I'm leaving anyone out, I'm sure someone can let me know. But those three, to me, were outside of something. Like, the more the music fest or whatever. It's like these were the ones that did real annual, important festivals that people looked forward to, people traveled for, but kind of became international destination type of thing.
And I really respected what Keith did. I know it got, like, a little messy and crazy, and I was. I was able to attend a few and play a few, and it was like, when all of that went away, I felt bad. I felt sad for everybody involved because I thought it was cool. So it's super nice to see, like, there's like a redemption arc there, not just for Trust Kill, but also for Hellfest. That's great.
[00:39:27] Speaker B: You know, it's funny you say more than music. So that was the blueprint for Hellfest, 100% more than music Fest was the blueprint, because that. There was nothing.
There wasn't a hardcore fest before that. That was it, right? And that was 1993 and 1994.
And then Keith was like, hey, we should do, like a fest in Syracuse. That was summer 97.
And I was like, yeah, sounds amazing. Let's do it. And I. You know, one day was headlined by Despair, next day was headlined by Harvest, third day headlined by Hate Breed. So we just, like, that was what we followed, right?
Syracuse Hardcore Fest. And then it changed to Hellfest in 98, and it kind of moved around and, you know, yeah, everyone knows the stories about that. But, yeah, I. I called Keith like, a year ago, and we reconnected and I told him what I was working on. And.
And, yeah, he.
He definitely felt like.
Like, pretty burned by, like, the world after 2005.
[00:40:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:40:35] Speaker B: And he was like, man, he's like, looking back on it, he's like.
He was like, there's so many people that, like, ripped me off and me over, and he's like, but you're, like, the only one that didn't do that.
Talking about me. And I'm like, all right. Because everything with 2000, you know, 99 to 2004 went pretty smooth, other than the venue for 2004 completely, which is crazy. Yeah.
[00:41:04] Speaker A: Like, that was crazy.
[00:41:05] Speaker B: It was crazy. But.
But, yeah. So, you know, he was excited that I was working on all this. It's not something I think that, like, he could have done, but he's excited to, like, you know, be involved and.
[00:41:20] Speaker A: And I really like everything I'm hearing, man. Best of luck with all that. So are you ready for the Crucial three? It's going to be the three questions we're going to ask you. They're going to scale up in difficulty.
[00:41:30] Speaker B: Okay, let's go.
[00:41:33] Speaker A: All right, here's the first one. What are the three Trust Go releases that you are most personally attached to?
[00:41:52] Speaker B: Terror 1 with the underdogs, 18 visions, vanity and Harvest God Complex.
[00:42:07] Speaker A: Cool. Very cool.
[00:42:09] Speaker B: I think those records were made by people that I had spent more time with than anyone else.
Right. Like, if we think about Terror One with the Underdogs, when that album came out, my history with Scott Vogel was so, so deep by then. Right. Like, you know, Despair played in my basement, and I went on tour with Despair in Europe and the US and I designed the Buried Alive album for Victory. And, you know, there was just, like, there's so much history there that by the time One with the Underdogs came out, like, that was like. I don't know, I felt like my kid, in a way. Like, it was, you know, that was so important to me.
And the same thing with 18 visions vanity, like, that was just, like. It was such a.
I don't want to use the word revelation, but, like, that album was just so crazy and.
And Harvest God Complex was another band that was like. I was just so tight with, and I went on tour with, and we just spent so much time and.
Yeah, A Harvest God Complex, I think, was, like, probably, like, my most important album from the 90s, I would say it is.
[00:43:34] Speaker A: I think it might be my favorite Triskill record.
I love that lp. I think I still, to this day love that lpa. Like, everything about it's cool, and I just. I.
There's just something good. And everyone I met from that band, I've liked quite a bit. I was really happy to see that they came back.
Yeah, for sure. That's really cool. All right, second question.
What is a decision that you made during Trustkill at any era that you absolutely regret?
And like, you cannot say nothing. I. Everything was fine. What's one that you're like, no, that was the wrong call. And then what was one where you made a call, but it was risky and it was the right call?
[00:44:14] Speaker B: I think in general.
In general, without saying a specific band.
There were bands I was signing because they came from the hardcore scene and were doing something important and making waves, and I wanted to sign them so that other hardcore kids could appreciate it, right?
And then I signed a few bands where I was like, this band is like hardcore adjacent.
And they're not making waves in the hardcore scene, right?
They're not necessarily playing for hardcore promoters at hardcore venues with hardcore bands.
But I thought if I signed them, then I can plug them in to this whole scene that I'm involved in.
And I don't think that's necessarily the case.
And while I did have some success doing that, my regret is that that was a backwards decision to make where I.
I should have only been signing bands that were from my world and not trying to do the opposite, not trying to introduce bands to my world, not from my world.
And that I think that was a mistake.
[00:46:05] Speaker A: All right, so what was a leap of faith, though, where you're like, I know this is a crazy decision, but I'm going to make it anyways. And it was totally the right decision decision.
[00:46:12] Speaker B: Bullet for My Valentine by a mile.
So Bullets My Valentine were a band from Wales who were playing hardcore adjacent shows with hardcore bands.
And at the time I was like, really in tune to like the British press, right? Like metal hammer, rock sound, a terrorizer. All those magazines from the UK were just like light years ahead of whatever we had here.
So I was constantly reading those magazines and constantly, you know, trying to keep on the up and up.
And that was a band where I'm like, oh, like, this band is cool.
And I'd heard some early demos and I remember being.
We were at the. I was at the Downtown in Long island for an 18 vision show.
And I'm backstage with them and I asked James, I go, dude, this band called Bullet for My Valentine opened for you guys, like in London or wherever it was recently.
I was like, what'd you think of them?
And I don't want to use his words, but he had no. Nothing but bad things to say about the band.
And I was like, all right, I feel you, you know. And then I signed the deal and the deal came with.
It was basically like, this is going to be a trust kill band and a trust kill album.
But I Have so many again. I have so many money to spend, and it was so awesome to be able to, like, spend all their. Again, spend all their money on this band and develop my brand and my label and to really, like, make this band explode in the US and it was wildly successful. So much so that Sony kept coming to me to try to replicate that.
And I never did it again.
I just kept saying no, because not a single band they suggested I had any interest in. But that particular.
That was just an anomaly. Like, it just. It exploded. Like, I.
That the poison did 10,000 copies first week, and they weren't even playing in the States. The. That was.
That was mind blowing.
And then, you know, to have a gold record a year later for a record I put out was totally crazy.
So, yeah.
[00:49:00] Speaker A: All right, I'm going to make it the Crucial four. If you don't mind, I'm going to ask you a fun question right at the end.
[00:49:06] Speaker B: All right, let's go.
[00:49:08] Speaker A: All right, so the third question is, what has. And I don't mean the early days, the middle days, or the current days. I mean the whole thing.
What has this trip with Trustkill taught you about yourself that you wouldn't have learned any other way?
What have you learned about yourself that Trustkill taught you?
[00:49:36] Speaker B: I think it just reinvigorated my DIY ethic and my.
Nothing is out of reach.
I just. I want to make shit happen.
And when I sign a band, I want nothing more than to have them be the most successful band and to be happy and make money and pay their bills and, you know, whatever, but.
But I will go to the ends of the world to make that happen. Like, whatever it takes, whatever. If it's my time, if it's my energy, if it's my. My money, you know, I remember three years of law school. I didn't really sleep right, like, I was in law school. But, like, Trust Kill was starting to explode right when I was in law school, and, hell, fast and just everything else.
And I was like, all right, it. It is what it is. Like, I'm just gonna do what I have to do to graduate and, you know, get my degree and have good grades. But if it means that, like, I'm going to get two hours of sleep tonight, so be it.
So it was like, you know, at any cost, I am going to be a lawyer. I am going to run this label, and I'm going to make these records a success.
And I want.
You know, it was really my whole.
My whole, like, motto with Trust Kill was basically like, thinking back to how it was, like, in high school when I found a band that I loved, right? Like, when I found Chain of Strength, I just wanted everyone that I knew to hear Chain of Strength.
So then I started putting out records, and I'm like, well, this is the same kind of thing. Like, I just want everyone to hear walls of Jericho, 18 visions. I want everyone to know about them. So that it was. It was like a record that I owned, which is a bit different, but the mentality was the same.
[00:51:35] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. All right, here's the bonus question, since we've talked about them a lot, and actually I've talked about Earth Crisis a lot on this podcast. I've literally never met one person in Earth Crisis ever in my life. But I love Earth Crisis. And, you know, Youth Embrace is my favorite record. Youth Today is my favorite band, so people wouldn't necessarily assume that I love Earthquakes.
[00:51:55] Speaker B: What about Uniform Choice?
[00:51:57] Speaker A: Uniform Choice is like, that is what I pattern all of my music off of. But I figured I love Uniform Choice. Like, they're. Forget about it. I could go on and on. Anyways, I love Earth Crisis for all sorts of reasons. Like, I love Earth Crisis for all sorts of reasons, but part of it is just that, like, oh, yeah, there's like these five people. And then the other people were in the band, the other people around them, they literally changed the world in one of the most profound ways. Like, it's still to this day. There's a debt that many of us owe Earth Crisis that we might not even realize. So I love Earth Crisis, but here's the question for you. Million dollar question. Slither, yay or nay?
[00:52:40] Speaker B: Oh, man, I don't know. I'm. I'm not gonna go and listen to that record.
It.
It's got some cool parts and the production is great.
Carl's voice sounds pretty good. It's got some great riffs.
But if I'm gonna go listen to Earth Crisis, it's gonna be like, you know, Gamora Seasons Ends, Destroy the Machines, Breed the Killers, right? Then the eps.
But their comeback album to the Death, one of their best records.
[00:53:18] Speaker A: Unbelievable. So can I tell you about a.
I tell you two things. First of all, Slither I revisited recently and like, well, recently in the past couple years, I've been like, damn, this. This record actually has some parts. And, like, there are. I'm not gonna sit. Say I sit down and listen to Slither front to back. But, like, I do actually go back and listen to songs. I'm like, oh, I wanna listen to that one song or this song.
And it's like, as time has passed, what I respect for it is like, dude, they were like multi albums deep at that point. It's like, hell, yeah. Like, good for you for trying something different, trying something new. And like, the production's great, the art is great. Like, they really went and tried something and were committed to it. Good for them. But they still were like a straight Edge band, a vegan band. Like, I love where that record falls in their history and I respect that they did it and there are some tracks on it.
But let me tell you about to the Death.
That record came out and I didn't listen to it at first because I love Earthquakes so much. I was like.
[00:54:17] Speaker B: We were all worried. We were all worried, right?
[00:54:22] Speaker A: Todd Jones from Terror hits me up. He's like, dude, have you listened to the new Earth Crisis yet? And I was like, no, I can't. He was like, you're gonna fuck him up this record. I'm like, really? He's like, I want you to imagine that humanity is in, like, decline. And it's in decline because a race of robots have risen. And these robots, their sole purpose are to defend animals from people.
And the robots are straight edge. And I was like, what are you talking about? He's like, that's the soundtrack of that. And I was like, I gotta get to the death immediately. And it's like, that record rocks. But whenever I listen to it, I always think of Todd Jones, like. Cause in that total deadpan, Todd Jones is like, yeah, man. It's just like, you know, the robots, they're. They're straight edge. I was like, fuck, I'm gonna get this record right now. So I love that record of love, Earth Crisis. Dude, Josh, sorry I called you, Carl, Cut that out.
Because we were talking about Earth Crisis. Josh, you rock. Thank you so much. This was a great conversation. Anything you want to add as we're closing off?
[00:55:31] Speaker B: No, I think that's it, man. I think we covered a lot. Thank you for having me. This was awesome. I'm glad we finally got to do this.
[00:55:38] Speaker A: Yeah. And thank you so much for your patience. Okay, everybody, as we're closing off, you know, there's a lot of business stuff involved in here. There's a lot of leadership stuff, and there's a lot of stuff that's based on, like, betting on yourself. And, like, the story of Trustkill is not like a historical story. It's like a story. It's happening now, it's unfolding. So please check out the record label. Support, health, support, trust, kill, support all those bands. And also do your thing. Whatever the thing is that you want to do, whether it's go to law school and write on a record label at the same time or try some new job or start some new business, there's no better time than now to bet on yourself because, like, life is not going to wait. So with that, I'll see you next time on One Step Beyond.
[00:56:28] Speaker B: What Step beyond?
