Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Yeah. And I see like just connecting it to my job. Like I, I talk about my experiences like in the, in the pumpkin hardcore scene in my professional life because I think there are just like so many lessons to be learned there, especially about like authenticity. I think a lot of people coming out of the pumpkin hardcore scene might have a, like a pretty, pretty good like bullshit meter, you know, I mean like being able to read people and see when people are being authentic and true and speaking to their passion.
[00:00:31] Speaker B: That was a clip from today's guest. Everybody, welcome back to the show. We're living in interesting times as you're hearing this. And it could be shortly after the election or far after the election. We're post election in the US and then of course being from Canada, I have all sorts of opinions, but I have an opinion from someone who's not a citizen of the US but we're living in interesting times and really the thing that stands out to me is the importance of making sure that we're having conversation with people and making sure that we're listening to people and opening ourselves up to really push ourselves to get takes that maybe aren't our own or really, really listening to different types of voices. And the reason I think that's so important is, you know what we're, I think we've proven how totally crazy the political system is. It's this time where it's from a community based space of people really unifying, supporting each other, having the right kinds of discussions. So with that, I'm super excited about today's guest. I love when people reach out and say, hey, I'd love to be on the show. I've got a story to tell. I've got some ideas I want to share and this is a great example of that. Someone who I am connected to through someone else. And we share a similar background coming from punk and hardcore, but also someone who has really great, interesting personal and professional history. So with that, this is going to be a great episode. Thanks for stopping by. Please rate Review subscribe all that good stuff. My name is Aram Marslanian and this is one step beyond Chong Wong. Welcome to the show.
[00:02:23] Speaker A: Thanks so much, Aram. Pleasure to be here. Big fan of the podcast, big fan of your musical endeavors. So yeah, thank you.
[00:02:31] Speaker B: Heck yeah. So for the uninitiated, for those who don't know, who are you and what do you do?
[00:02:37] Speaker A: Yeah, the hard hitting questions right out of the gate.
My name is Chang Won Boden. I'm a transracial adoptee. I was born In Korea, displaced to Cape Cod, Massachusetts in the early 90s. I've been playing in punk and hardcore bands and attending shows since around 2001 or 2. I'm an adoptee advocate, not to be confused with an adoption advocate, community organizer. I'm a listener, I'm a public speaker. And professionally I work for Harvard Business School, Harvard Business Publishing, which is a subsidiary, subsidiary of Harvard Business School. My title is a bit of a mouthful, so it's a global lead of business and culture. But what that basically means is I'm a business strategist with a focus on people and equitizing Harvard knowledge through social impact partnerships.
My adoption identity really is a red thread through my personal life, my music, my professional life as well. So really, really happy to be here with you.
[00:03:37] Speaker B: Heck yeah. Thank you. Let's start, if you don't mind, with your adoptee identity.
[00:03:42] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. So I, I was born and I think, you know, busan, Korea, in 1989, January 11th. I think something a lot of people don't know or don't maybe are aware of, but don't fully comprehend is just like the cultural erasure of adoption, especially transracial adoption, especially international adoption. So even something as simple as like when were you, when were you born? Is called into question because there are accounts of, I falsified records, there's accounts of just like not having the information available at all. My date of birth on my amended birth certificate actually is the same date of birth as my adoptive father. So that's kind of like, is that for real? But yeah, so I was adopted by a couple living in, on Cape Cod, Massachusetts. It's actually kind of an interesting childhood. I, they were living on a, on an island at the time, a true island that's not connected to the mainland.
Their jobs were to be year round housekeepers or yeah, I guess you could say housekeepers for a very wealthy family who owned this private island.
And they would only go to the island for a couple months out of the year. So the other, you know, nine or 10 months, it was just a group of people who were, you know, making sure that their, the houses were winterized, everything was in working order. I had to take like a boat to school for the first 10 years of my life. Now I think speaking of the like the cultural erasure part, I was born with the name Changwon, so it's my Korean birth name. And when I was adopted, my name was changed to Seth. That name has a long family history. Named after some very distant relative that I don't you know, don't. Didn't feel a connection with. Something you might know about New England people is they're very into their New England history. So my parents are no exception to that. They, you know, they trace their family roots to like, Roger Williams, who founded Rhode island and several of them. And the person I'm named after was a whaling captain in the 1800s. He owned a whaling ship, went out to sea. His wife wrote a book about the experience of like, having her husband be like a whaling fisherman being gone for a long time out of the year. And I was encouraged to live into that identity, but I really, I never felt connected to it. So I think growing up, there's a lot of feelings of just isolation and, you know, not being able to connect with people around me and kind of like. I guess that's why I fell into, like, the punk parkour music scene at a pretty early age.
That felt like, you know, home to me. A bunch of people who didn't feel like they fit in anywhere else, kind of like, at least superficially, that really, like, attracted me to it.
[00:06:33] Speaker B: You were very specific when you were talking about advocacy and you're like, it's not this, it's this. Can you unpack that a little bit?
[00:06:41] Speaker A: Yeah. I just wanted to speak on as an adoptee advocate, it's my focus is on people who have experienced adoption personally in the, like, the first person tense. I think when you say you're an adoptee advocate, I'm not advocating for adoption. It's actually a little bit to the contrary of that. But what I do is listen and speak with people who, like me, have experienced adoption. And even within that, there's a lot of different experiences. Like the experience of a transracial inter country adoptee is going to be very different than a domestic adoptee. The experience of a transracial adoptee is going to be different than someone who was adopted within the same race as well.
[00:07:27] Speaker B: So again, sharing whatever you're comfortable sharing with. What was that experience for you? You did talk a bit about feeling like isolated, having a name that connected to a distant relative, but not really feeling connected to that. Having a Sikh community like punkin Hardcore.
Anything further that you want to get into that? Because it's an interesting part of your story, as you said, it threads through your whole life story.
[00:07:53] Speaker A: Yeah. So I think a big part now is language. So in my, you know, adoption paperwork, my adoption records, you know, I was learning my first words in Korean when I was born. And this is all on paper. It's written a bit like a sales pitch to like an adopting family actually. But I recognized like, you know, like the oma and appa, like the Korean words from mother and father. And I knew other simple, you know, Korean words when I was adopted at around 2 years old. And then to have this like immense displacement of moving to another country where it's. They speak a different language and having to learn it. Actually I experienced a lot of like speech impediments when I was early in childhood. We don't know for sure, but I attribute it to just having like this like culture shock of starting to learn a language in those very early childhood years, to having to learn a new language in like in that same amount of time and to speak on that adoption advocacy work a little bit. I or adoptee advocacy work. I currently play in a band called no Model. It's. We speak on adoption.
Myself as well as the singer are both Korean adoptees. It's an all Asian band. So we also have that perspective too. We also lean into the anti imperialist messaging acknowledging how much harm the US Military has done overseas. And then separately from the music stuff, I was also involved in leading adoptee committee as part of NAP Boston, which is the national association of Asian American Professionals. So I was a director at that organization as well for this adoptee committee.
[00:09:38] Speaker B: So this is a big question again, any direction you want to take, what difference are you seeking to make for adoptees?
[00:09:47] Speaker A: I think really about finding your voice. And for me, I tie it a lot to just my experience in the punk and hardcore scene. That that was what empowered me and enabled me and modeled what finding your voice means. And I just want other adoptees to find that voice because otherwise someone else is going to speak for you. And I think as adoptees, we, we've had people speaking for us for our entire lives and advocacy for me looks like encouraging and helping adoptees find that same voice to speak their truth, even if it differs from mine.
[00:10:24] Speaker B: Yeah, you hit on something. I was interested in that willingness to put yourself out there and take position to be an advocate for people. That's, I mean very much what our podcast is about, like leadership and, and different forms of leadership, but it's also like it's taking a position.
How much of that was just true to you, like kind of in your heart and kind of you would have done it anyways. And how much of it did you get from punk and hardcore?
[00:10:53] Speaker A: I, I think the encouragement absolutely came from punk and hardcore. I think something that's beautiful about it is Just the opportunity to be in the same room with, like, exactly what you're doing on this podcast. Like, the opportunity to share ideas and experiences. And this has all been said in, like, a number of different ways, but, like, learn three car, three chords, start a band. Like, this is your microphone. Take the microphone. I think that was really like, a call to action for me to do it. And it did. It did take a while for me because I've been playing in bands forever and it's not always been this, like, adoptee messaging. It's just been, you know, how I showed up. But now being in a project that is focused on adoptee identity feels empowering to me. So I think I would attribute the encouragement to have come from the punkin hardcore scene. But I think as a means of survival, I had to do it for myself as well. I think, like, finding my reason why, like, why am I here? Was very important to me all throughout childhood and into adulthood. I would say, honestly, 50, 50, between punk and hardcore and personal necessity.
[00:12:04] Speaker B: Could you speak on erasure? Because I'm hearing kind of two kinds of erasure, like cultural erasure, but also like the life that could have been, you know, your story that could have been.
[00:12:15] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. So there's the aspect of all the uncertainty around your family history and things that other people may take for granted. Medical history is one. I don't know anything about my genetics, so to speak. I don't know if I'm predisposed to any illness or disease. Those common things that they ask you like, at the doctor's office, and you're just unable to respond to. I think adoption definitely played into just a feeling of not feeling like you're fully in either place. It's not caught between the U.S. and Korea. It's like, I don't belong in the U.S. or Korea. So it's not I'm caught between two places. It's I don't belong in two places.
[00:13:00] Speaker B: As you started kind of getting more into this space, so you gone. You went from a place of just feeling isolated. But I had imagined, and correct me if I'm wrong, maybe keeping that bottled up inside.
[00:13:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:11] Speaker B: And then moving to a place where you're starting to express it more. How did that impact your family dynamic?
[00:13:16] Speaker A: And then I. I wasn't.
So I wasn't confronted about it. They didn't say, like, I was like a letdown to the family for deciding to do this. I think for me, as I leaned more into my adoption identity, I have, whether purposely or inadvertently, distanced myself from family.
And I think that maybe some adoptees can relate to this.
I found chosen family and that is what held me and encouraged me through this journey, more so than my adoptive family did.
[00:13:57] Speaker B: So something you'd mentioned earlier and again you've been specific about it twice and I just want to dive into a bit more. So adoptee advocacy, not adoption advocacy. That's right. And then at one point you'd said it's like, it's actually a little bit of the opposite, but you didn't say it's totally opposite. So could you talk a little bit more about that, that, that leaning counter position to adoption?
[00:14:19] Speaker A: Yeah, I think what it comes down to is just the monetary part of it that the price tag of adoption, seeing like oh, you can adopt a child from Korea for $10,000 just as an example is very jarring. Putting a price on a child and having the experience of adoption, having that transactional, a transactional relationship between the adopting parent and the adoptee, like you're not giving the child money, you're paying for a child.
And some people, you know, myself included to an extent, have related adoption, especially international adoption, to human trafficking. And I don't see it as being far off from that because you're literally purchasing a human life.
And different people, different adoptees will have different degrees of how harmful that is to them. Some may, you know, be adopted into great loving families and that causes them to have like a very strong sense of self that doesn't make them question that relationship as much. But I think it's really a flip of a coin. And there are so many instances of adoptees falling into, you know, abusive adoptee adopting families and just having no control over that is very, you know, it's.
[00:15:44] Speaker B: Tough, it's a big question. And again, like wherever you want to go with this, what kind of model could there be? So if we were saying like, hey, like let's like break this whole thing down and rebuild it, like, you know, rebuild a model where something like this could be beneficial, could be properly resourced, could be respectful of the adoptees rights.
What are your thoughts?
[00:16:08] Speaker A: So I don't know if it can be, especially when it comes to international adoption, especially when a lot of companies that were facilitating adoption were specifically going into destabilized areas. Korean adoption came out of the Korean War, Vietnamese adoption came out of the Vietnam War. There's a significant population of adoptees from Philippines and we know how that was destabilized as well. So I would love to see, instead of this being like a Transactional, like giving, giving, you know, an organization money for a child. Like let's just support birthing families. Let's keep family unification as the primary objective instead of, you know, like offering money in exchange for their child. I think the, the majority of circumstances around the need to adopt is the lack of resources. So I think if a lot of these families had money and support to keep their families together, they would have chosen that.
[00:17:18] Speaker B: Beautifully said. We had another guest on named Pat who is a foster parent and him and his wife have, they have a transracial family. And he spoke at great lengths about the attempts to reunify, keep the parents in the life. Like that was the goal of everything until it proved, until in these specific situations it just didn't work out. And the immense responsibility that he and his partner felt about maintaining that rather than just being part of this system that kind of displaced children from their, from their family of origin and. And this was within North America. Yeah, cross culturally as well. That's like a whole other aspect of it. And I know like when you said it's like I don't know if it could be fixed, I don't know how we rebuild it.
It's such a wild thing because then it also has the aspect that you talked about war, government actions that create destabilization in regions or countries, colonialism. So it is such a storied issue.
[00:18:22] Speaker A: I was going to say one thing that is fascinating to me now is Korean culture coming into prevalence in the U.S. whether that be like K pop or Korean beauty techniques or whatever it is. And like I had no, no one of Korean identity to kind of reference on TV in the media or whatever it is now. There's so many and it's just like did Korean adoption through the 80s and 90s kind of like facilitate this boom of Korean culture in the US and did it help create that like inter country kind of trade of media and culture? And that's kind of been sticking with me a lot lately just because of how big kind of like the K pop industry is right now and how much Korean culture food as well is like is so popular in the US at least.
[00:19:11] Speaker B: That's like a fascinating idea. Definitely. Like, I mean I could see it. I am real interested though. So like you, I love what you said earlier about kind of chosen family and kind of finding your voice, finding a community within that. What did the hardcore scene look like when you first entered it? Because it's quite different now.
[00:19:32] Speaker A: Yeah, it was, it was, you know, especially on Cape Cod. I'm pretty sure I was the only non white person that I can remember. I think there may have been like one or two others I can think of. But there was this unspoken rule that like, we couldn't be friends. Like the, the non white people couldn't be friends with each other because we had already like, you know, been separated and claimed by like different. Like, I don't. It was just like such a weird dynamic, but it was much less inclusive than it is now.
Much more violent coming out. Cape Cod wasn't this way, but definitely South Shore, like and like Boston was at the time. But I think that, that danger and like not being uncertain and being like, oh, I'm gonna get my ass kicked at the show. Like I, I know I had like, like mental issues at the time because that's what attracted me to it. Like it wasn't the opportunity to go fight people, it was the opportunity that I might get my ass kicked and I was like looking for that.
And yeah, I don't know, it was, it was kind of a wild experience, I think just like the excitement and like being able to like feel something was what, what pulled me in.
[00:20:42] Speaker B: Yeah, it's such a, it's an interesting scene because.
Much less diverse.
Not even that long ago, like you just say like eight years ago, it was much less diverse than now where it's like. I think it's really. It seems that punk and hardcore are kind of starting to achieve. Really started to achieve what's possible in terms of like inclusiveness, like having different voices, like having people different, different, different identities represented on stage where people could be like, well, finally someone like me is up on the stage and it's like not just like, not just singing in a band or playing in a band, but as a book in the show, putting out the zine, taking the photos. Like there's some kind of big shift that happened in the past, like let's say 10ish years that I find fascinating.
[00:21:31] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think.
I'm sure it has a lot to do with just like social media, for better or worse and ideas being able to get out there more instead of just to like the audience or the room of 100 people. Now these ideas are getting out there and I value punkin hardcore as like simply a storytelling platform and simply a way for individuals to share their message to a group of people. And now that you have like those messages getting out to a broader audience, I think that that is pulling people in in turn. And I'm. I don't even Want to, you know, say if that's for good or for better or worse, you know, I think it just is what it is. I think as I get older, I think something that I've really, like, leaned into is that, like, it's always going to be a youth movement. It's always going to be what, you know, the kids want. And anyone, you know, who's trying to stop that to just like, hold on to like, their glory days or whatever. When hardcore was a certain way, like, I don't know, I, I, I think, like, we should be supporting what the kids are doing. And that's what I love about Todd Pollock who we mentioned earlier, is he, in my opinion, just exemplifies that of empowering and supporting what the scene is right now. No matter when it is or what's happening.
[00:22:50] Speaker B: Todd rocks. Shout out to Todd, friend of the show, personal friend for many years. Like, absolutely represents everything that I love about punk and hardcore and the attitude. I want to hit on that thing though, that you said. It's just like for people who are trying to hold on, it's like, I get it.
For me, it's about how willing you are, how serious you are about your ideas. Are you so serious about your ideas that you don't only represent them within a small community that you're willing to port them out? And also, are you serious enough that you believe in your ideas and can have them challenged by changing generations? And it's like anyone who's trying to be like, well, punk and hardcore is this or that. It's like, that's wild. Because punk and hardcore is like different things from like one town to a next or even within a scene from one scene to the next. I love punk and hardcore, but I think it can be like, really reductive and lock people in and make them feel like they're doing something more than they're actually doing. Like, it's super important to message within community, but way more important to take that messaging and live it and transmit it out.
[00:23:54] Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And I see like, just connecting it to my job. Like, I, I talk about my experiences like in the, in the pumpkin hardcore scene in my professional life because I think there are just like so many lessons to be learned there, especially about like, authenticity. I think a lot of people coming out of the pumpkin hardcore scene might have a, like a pretty, a pretty good, like, bullshit meter. You know, I mean, like being able to read people and, and see when people are being authentic and true and speaking to their passion and conviction versus just like, being there for the.
Whatever you want to call it, the, the clout, I guess. I. I don't know. Definitely not the money. Right. I can see when a leader is a good leader or when a manager is a great manager because they're authentic, they're vulnerable. They, you know, they're able to share their ideas in a certain way. And I, I love punkin hardcore, but I'm very, also very picky about the bands I like. Like, I need that. I need to feel that authenticity and that message and believe that someone, you know, truly like, lives it.
[00:25:06] Speaker B: Let's. Let's talk about your professional career.
[00:25:09] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:25:10] Speaker B: So as you said, your, your title is kind of complex if you were to boil it down as, as you did earlier. But, like, let's, let's touch on it further. What is your. What exactly is your role and what do you do?
[00:25:20] Speaker A: Yeah, so the title is Global Lead of Business and Culture, and it's kind of. It's a very adaptable role. Right now, you know, my main thing is managing three employee resource groups. And then as kind of a sidebar to that, I'm also involved as a relationship manager for these different social impact organizations. Something I felt very strongly about coming into my job is like, Harvard is Harvard, but you have, like, a platform and opportunity to be supporting the community better than you are. You have the resources to do it as well. Like, let's not kid anyone. So I was given the opportunity and the role I have now to go out and find and develop some of these social impact partnerships with local organizations. There's one I can shadow called the Wiley Network, and their mission is to support undergraduate students in the Boston area who were cut off from their families and don't have the emotional or financial support of their families. And that could be due to, like, incarceration, drug addiction. The students own, like, LGBT identity. Like, maybe their parents didn't want to have anything to do with them any anymore. So the Wiley Networks kind of motto is like, rely on the strength of your pack. And I, I think I just was like, well, yeah, that's it. And how can Harvard, like, support this, this organization and the work that they're doing without, like, feeling like we're badgering our way into something that's like, out of our, out of our realm? And I think the model I came to was that, like, even if we don't, even if we're not reaching the students or the populations these organizations are directly serving, we can empower organizations to continue doing that work and maybe level up what they're doing. So like, I think I'm very careful with Harvard's kind of like reputation and I guess like role to like not try to move into any spaces that are out of our wheelhouse. But I think something that is in our wheelhouse especially coming like being tied to the Harvard Business School is supporting startups and supporting like local, these local impact organizations in the work that they're doing and let them lead the way and just kind of be behind them.
[00:27:39] Speaker B: Can you give us an example of like how you would support them? Like I'm real interested in like what's the output of your job? Like what happens as a result of what you do?
[00:27:48] Speaker A: Yeah. So Harvard Business Publishing is responsible for Harvard Business Review, the magazine. That's probably what most people are familiar with. Also net, like digital content as well associated with the magazine. But something a lot of people may not be as familiar with are Harvard branded case studies, higher ed simulations and that kind of work which is licensed to other colleges and universities for use in their classes.
So we have the ability to donate all of that. You know, like we don't need to make money off of a group that's like supporting 100 kids going through undergraduate classes as like a supplement to a public school or university or private school. We can donate those resources. We have a separate business unit called Corporate Learning, which is basically, you know, a five or six week boot camp that Fortune 1000 type of companies will send their managers to for kind of the Harvard Business School experience in a boot camp. And we have, we can donate those courses as well. That's all facilitated by Harvard Business professors.
We have our own content library and kind of like digital learning and development platform called Harvard Managed Mentor and Spark, which is like an on demand service for L and D resources. We can donate licenses to that too. Like we make money in all these different areas that we just like don't need to be charging people for. And we can increase our reach by putting it in front of more people without this like Harvard price tag on it. So all these those things like whether it be the, the learning platform or like the digital content or the case studies that can all be donated to people and licensed for use without reciprocity and then simply like volunteer opportunities as well. Like we've had, we've facilitated employee led panels with undergraduate students. We've had one on one mentoring and coaching kind of like experience ship type of opportunities. So it's really like, it's a fun role because I can really just like look at what we have and then think about what we can do and then kind of like tie it all up in a bow and pitch it to the right people. And sometimes it's accepted, sometimes it's not, and then just getting to see something happen. But really like design. Designing it from.
From soup to nuts, is that, what is that the term? I don't know. I don't know. From, from top. Basically like conceptualizing it and designing it, pitching it and seeing it happen is very rewarding, I guess, for me.
[00:30:31] Speaker B: So was this what you set out to do when you were, you know, kind of thinking of what you wanted your professional path to be? Like, were you like, I want something, maybe not this role, but something like this, or is it something that you found over time through just developing, developing professionally?
[00:30:47] Speaker A: Something that comes up a lot. And what is asked people who are earlier in their career is like, what do you want to do? And I think that the common like thing we land on is that it doesn't matter like what you want to do, just like try it all or get yourself out there. You know, you don't have to have it all figured out coming into the job market. But I think for me, and what I try to share with any like younger people I come in contact with is you might not need to know what you want to do, but you should figure out your why or your purpose and really develop that sense of like self identity. Figure out your North Star coming into it and what that. For me that was really easy because there was no separation for me between my, my reason why at work and my reason why as an adoptee or outside of work in my personal life. And that's simply to feel like I, you know, I can be holy myself, I can be a full person. I can, you know, live into my identity as an adoptee, as like a queer person, whatever it is. And I needed that, like, I needed to feel that sense of, of being a whole person, just like for my own, you know, wellness and like, like mental well being, that's something I needed. So it's like something I've been thinking about before I was ever considering what I wanted to do for work. So bringing that into the job place and then having, having that be celebrated, I guess is something that might be given to circumstance because I absolutely can't underplay how much like mentorship had a role in all of that. Wanting to feel whole and complete and then also wanting others to have that same experience and sense of self is kind of what, like what led me to the work but it's not like I set out wanting to work for Harvard and wanting to do the social impact work. It's just merging passion with, with what I needed to do to, to make ends meet.
[00:32:54] Speaker B: Well, I'm really interested in that because I have a way that I describe work and what is a good job or a bad job. Do you mind if I just get into that for a second?
[00:33:03] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, please, please.
[00:33:04] Speaker B: Yeah. So, and I, I go from top to bottom, kind of like hierarchy of what I have found makes people most satisfied with work to the least. And it's not that the least doesn't matter to them, but it just tends to psychologically give them the less, the less least benefit. So the number one thing that I find that is a difference maker for people that make them want to stay at work and really invest there is their relationship, their direct relationship with their boss.
[00:33:30] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:33:31] Speaker B: And I don't mean whether or not they are buddy buddy with their boss. In fact, that could actually be a bad thing. But does their boss invest in them? And that doesn't even mean financially. But as you'd said earlier, strong mentorship, strong leadership, strong personship, do they allow that person to be who they are, Give them good, strong feedback, work with them to develop them? Does that leader give them the spotlight? Does this leader give them opportunity to stretch and grow?
That's the number one indicator of what I found makes people willing to really be in a job.
The second one is their connection to their team. And within that, I don't mean whether they're within group or out of group, but more so, do their coworkers enable them to do the best work they've ever done, to really have that strong group work ethic, to create things that challenge the norms, that create really great things. And again, doesn't mean like you're going out like on the weekend with your coworkers. It could mean that, but it also, what it means is it enabling the best level of work. The third thing is whether or not they actually like their job. And I know that sounds so weird that it'd be like so far down there.
[00:34:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:34:36] Speaker B: But I know a lot of people who, who like their job, but they hate their boss. And it's like that inverted thing. It's like, I can't handle my boss. Or the worst.
[00:34:44] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:34:45] Speaker B: And then the last thing is their pay, their benefits, their work life balance. All four of those things totally matter. But they matter in like that ranking. And I feel that in North America, and this is, I feel is quite A North American thing is that there's this idea of, like, the perfect job, it's got to light up all those buckets. When in reality, like, a really amazing job could be three of those buckets, or a really decent job could be two of those buckets. Where I think, like, a bad job and bad is like, kind of question mark, because maybe you take a job for a period, period of your life, you might only have one of those buckets. And as a, as a personal example, I worked in a job where, like, I was paid very, very well. It was the most I'd ever been paid in my life, but I'd never been more miserable because couldn't stand my boss. Like, my boss was the worst and I didn't believe in what I was doing, but I liked my coworkers and I got paid a ton. And I think really figuring out what matters to you and what combination of those things has a lot to do with, like, how you build your career. But I'm interested in your thoughts on that.
[00:35:47] Speaker A: So I guess I have a perfect job because I'm green lighting all of those things in the order that you shared too.
My boss is amazing.
She has put development as, like, a central focus of wanting to, I guess, like, keep me at this job. So she's constantly sending me on these, like, resume building, you know, courses I've taken, like, E. Cornell stuff that she's taken out of budget herself. We have, we have two meetings on our calendar every week. One is specifically for development, so we're not talking about work stuff. It's more like, what do you want to do? Where do you want to go? Like, how can I help you get there?
And then the other side is on, like the tactical, like, what we're doing for work and sharing. But, like, those conversations never overlap. It's always like, specific hour. That's always just about professional development and, like, what my goals are. And then the second separate one is about the work itself. My team is also fantastic. It's. It's the DEI team, right? Like, colloquially, I guess, like, we do a lot more than just DEI work, but lately we've been you know, working on infusing DEI or insulating and infusing DEI across the business. So we can essentially say that we're not a DEI team. We're just, you know, helping our company and culture be more inclusive. Right? Because, like, as, you know, like, there is a threat to DEI right now, and we want to be able to be like, hey, we don't do any DEI initiatives. We're just working on company culture and inclusivity and making sure everyone feels good here. Like that at its core, I think is DEI work, at least in the corporate context. I think there's important, like, distinction to make there because, like, conversations about like, inequities and race outside of the workplace look very different. But I think in the workplace, all we want is for people to feel, feel good for. One of. A Harvard professor called Francis Fry has a model called the Inclusion Dial, and it's moving from safe to welcome. So, like, can you show up and feel like you're safe here? Well, you want to get it to the point where you're like cherished and celebrated for your identity, not just safe. And that's what we're working towards is making it a place where people, you know, feel like they're actually celebrated for their identity and then job satisfaction. I feel like I could be doing something I'm more passionate about, but I don't know, like, I'm, I'm fine with what I'm doing. I'm making it kind of something that works for me and aligns with my values. Redistributing Harvard money feels good and then finally pay. You know, I've been here for six years now, so they did enough to keep me here.
And I'm not like, I could definitely be making more at like Deloitte or McKinsey, but I don't think my boss would be as good. I don't think my team would be as good. My work life balance maybe probably not as good. So, yeah, I think I, like, I agree with your framework, I agree with the order and yeah, I think my job right now checks all the boxes.
[00:39:00] Speaker B: That's so cool though, because one of the things I try to say to people, it's not that it's wrong to want a perfect job, but it's like, it's very rare that you're just going to slam dunk, get the perfect job. It's like a job could become a perfect job over time, depending on bosses come and go, da, da, da, all of that. So I'm real interested in your career path. How did you end up finding and developing or growing into or helping grow this perfect role?
[00:39:28] Speaker A: Yeah, I think a lot of speaking up, a lot of self advocacy and that kind of goes back to the developing your sense of self more than developing what you want to do specifically for work. So I showed up speaking on the things that I was passionate about, inclusivity and creating a welcoming environment for all people was One of those things.
This was like, maybe 2018, you know, before, like, the corporate DEI has been around for quite a while, but Harvard wasn't having those conversations for sure. So I was just doing a lot of volunteer type of.
I don't know if I'd call it community building, but definitely, like, leading conversations around the org, impromptu meetings, meetings across teams about, you know, simple like, 101 stuff, like unconscious bias and that kind of thing. And when the organization decided to put some money towards establishing, like, DEI as something they cared about, my boss was pulled into this role of, like, senior consultant or like, consultant to the CEO on DEI or something like that. She was given a budget to create a team. And just from, like, see, like, the grassroots approach that I had taken, she was. She knew who I was. And she's like, hey, like, I'm building this team that's going to be, like, kind of HR adjacent, but, like, focus on, like, these issues and you're coming with me. So, like, I already talked to your boss about it, so I just kind of like moved over to this role that I'm in now and this. What I've been doing for, like, four years.
[00:41:10] Speaker B: So with that, there's a lot of cool things about working with like, a. An institution like Harvard. Like, I mean, Harvard, you say it, and everyone's like, whoa, that's wild. But there's challenges with that. And enacting change can usually have, like, a strike. Sometimes it's like nobody cares, and other times it's like, everyone cares. Like, wow. But then nothing happens. So how have you.
And again, I recognize there might be some sensitivity of how you could talk about this.
How do you feel that you're able to create the level of change and impact that you want to, while also keeping in mind that you work in a very storied institution.
[00:41:48] Speaker A: Yeah, I think I'm pretty fortunate in my role of having the ear of certain people. And one thing I've taken on in my work is, is really like, aligning the things that I want to do around our mission and values. And, you know, one of our. One of our values is like, do it with excellence. Do what we're doing with excellence. That reflects the Harvard brand. And I've been trying to dig in and dissect a little bit and kind of like, get people to see that excellence doesn't mean perfection. It just means doing, you know, as. As well as you can, given the circumstances.
And I think Harvard in general, because of the brand reputation, is very, you know, change resistant. It's very risk averse for social impact work. For example, our mission statement is to unlock the leader in everyone. And I was really thinking about that verbiage and I was like, who is everyone? When you're talking about Harvard? And it's what boiled down to for me was talking about people with the access to Harvard type institutions and also the opportunity, the circumstances to pursue those that access. So like framing everything against mission, vision, values of the organization you're working with and like poking holes in it, but at the same time knowing how to, how to pitch, how to, how to speak to leaders in a way that they're receptive of it is, you know, a skill that I've been working on, been learning and I just like, I can't understate the value of it because it's like you can take something that's seemingly out of left field but if you kind of like align it to mission or vision or like poke holes, if there's something that is presenting a clear issue of social inequity in living into those mission and vision, mission and values, I think there is some progress that could be made. So yeah, it's still a work in progress. Right. Like I'm not director level at Harvard.
I'm you know, an individual contributor who has some ideas and is fortunate enough to have the ear of some, some decision makers, our executive team, etc.
[00:44:18] Speaker B: So a tough question and again, whatever you feel comfortable talking about here.
[00:44:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:44:24] Speaker B: So we're post election and we're heading into a space where America, at least from a voting perspective has gone a lot more conservative. And I can say speaking in Canada, we just had a provincial election here and although the NDP one which is like the more progressive party, they won, they won by the skin of their teeth and BC almost went conservative and hasn't gone conservative in like, I don't know, like some crazy amount of time.
[00:44:51] Speaker A: Like 100 years or something.
[00:44:53] Speaker B: Canada seems to be trending much more conservative. It's very likely next year our long term prime minister is going to be replaced by someone who is conservative. So it seems like we are heading into a much more conservative time that in that space you had already mentioned, essentially kind of like rebranding DEI or looking at the work and talking about it in a way that it's more approachable to people who might feel empowered to criticize or attack it. So what are your thoughts on how you move forward with work that you're super clearly passionate about? Recognizing that there's probably going to be a lot of people Feeling empowered to push back in a way they haven't in the past few years.
[00:45:38] Speaker A: I welcome the pushback. I think that's something that a hardcore and punk scene, just putting you shoulder to shoulder with people of all different views is really good. Like, kind of like preparing you for that. And I honestly, like, there's limitations, of course, to it. Like, I, when someone talks about like, you know, bringing your whole self to work, I don't want you showing up in like a kkk, like, hood, you know what I mean? But I think under underpinning all these conversations with, with mutual respect and kind of like the desire to enter into that conversation is not going to be lost regardless. Because I, like, I don't think, like, even though we're here in a certain way in the US and the election results are as they are, like, I don't think people who, even people who might have voted for, for, for Trump aren't willing to have conversations. I, I think the majority of them are. My approach to it has just been like, hey, if, like, if you show me respect, I'm going to show you respect and we're going to just like, talk and reach consensus on maybe a few things, hopefully. And I think the workplace is actually a great place to do that because it is relatively safe as far as like, physical safety. Like, like, let's have these conversations and like, let's, let's get into the ring, you know, like, not, not debate, but like, we can have these conversations at work in a respectful way because we know we have to get this job done at the end of the day and we have to work with each other at the end of the day. And I think that that is maybe something that more people outside of that, like corporate whatever, should like, keep, keep in sight is that we all need to like, figure something out together because, like, we like. I don't know, it's just, I think the, I think the corporate office is a great place to have these conversations is, I guess, my point to all of this.
[00:47:33] Speaker B: That's an interesting take because, like, very often hear people, like, want to push it the other direction.
Do you mind if I share my, my thoughts on it?
[00:47:40] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, of course.
[00:47:42] Speaker B: I think if people are serious about their ideas and like, really into their ideas, they should be willing to put them on the table and discuss them in, oh, 100. Yeah.
[00:47:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that.
[00:47:50] Speaker B: Like a good, healthy way and also be totally open, having their minds changed or disagreeing and deeply disagreeing and also being like, yeah, that's cool. We can Disagree. Let's just move the ball forward.
For me, it's like being serious about ideas means that we're looking to create an output that will have the highest level of benefit to the highest amount of people, like, the most amount of people, and we can stretch that out.
And not being serious about our ideas is kind of going back into our corners and just kind of like trying to get one over on each other. And I'm not even talking about political corners. I'm just talking about how we think about ideas. Absolutely. And I can understand why people would hesitate to kind of like, go into things where it's like, deeply personal to them for all sorts of reasons. I can totally get it. And again, it's like being serious about our ideas, like, the impact of people's ideas, it's so important. It's something that I think you and I certainly have learned from punk and hardcore. It's like, you got to speak your mind and be willing to know that. It's like you got to. You really got to be in the conversation.
I think that the time that we're going into right now is, I think it's going to be initially highly challenging. And not that I think it's not going to continue to be challenging, but I do really firmly believe is, like, if we're serious about our ideas and we're willing to be in the conversation, much if not all of the right things can continue to happen. It's not the time to run away from, from tough conversations, though.
[00:49:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I absolutely agree. And that's a great point about, like, is this like, a serious point that you're making? Like, is this in good faith? Am I. Am I wasting my energy by engaging right now, or does this person actually want to talk? So we had a. This is probably like three or four years ago, someone, you know, there was pushback against one of our racial race affinity groups. Someone was like, oh, like, why can't I start like a white man erg?
And we were like, sure. Like, give us like, a proposal. And, you know, all of these ergs that we have now work under charter, like, they had to spell out their, their values, identify what they're trying to accomplish, give a plan for, for how they're going to grow their, their group or develop their initiatives. And, and we didn't hear anything back from this person. So of course, like, like, yeah. So, like, honestly, and, and I don't know if it would have happened because, like, that's not my decision to make something about the need for a white man. Or erg, like, okay, respect at least.
[00:50:22] Speaker B: Like, yeah, well, it's like, again, someone not serious about their ideas. Of course they didn't put forward a plan.
[00:50:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:50:30] Speaker B: Can you mind if I give you an example from my world?
So very often I hear organizations talk about psychological safety, and they talk about it as if it's like a promise they've made. It's like, we're going to. About psychological safety. I was working with an executive group and they were like, yeah, one of our values is psychological safety. I was like, oh, sick. Okay, so what have you put in place? And they're like, what do you mean? I'm like, well, so what do you mean by psychological safety? And of course, they had kind of like a way of talking about it. And this is in no way intended to speak negatively about this group being serious about psychological safety. It's like, we live in such a complex world where people come from many different perspectives. It is a massive thing to promise people that a workplace is going to be psychologically safe. And it's not a bad thing to aspire towards. If you speak about it from aspirational space and you talk about the plan of how you get there over time and how that includes bringing along different kinds of perspectives. But to promise it as a like. And we are this. That to me, is not. It's. It's lovely thinking. Like, I think it's lovely that people want to do that. And it's like, it comes from a good place, but it's not a serious idea. A serious idea really encompasses how challenging that is and talks about how we aspire to get there and how we're going to start working on it.
[00:51:49] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I love talking about psychological safety. I think Amy Edmondson may have been the who coined that term. Anyways, so I look at psychological safety as kind of like allyship. Like, it's not an identity or it's not a thing that you can claim for yourself. Like, other people. As far as, like, allyship will let you know if you're an ally. But you can't say, like, hey, like, I'm showing up as, like, you know, like, if. Does that make sense? Like, you can't claim a psychologically safe area because the people who are marginalized, underrepresented or whatever need to be the ones that are like, this job is psychologically safe. It can't come down from the top.
[00:52:27] Speaker B: Right. So in that what you just said about allies, like, these all things, they all come from people wanting to do something good, like wanting to make A statement of she wanted to show respect. But they're these kind of like, yo, like, hey, like, I always go to the data, like, what are the data points that would suggest that that's a position that you could be taking rather than just saying it's this thing. And serious conversation for me is like, yeah, we have these goals, but, like, how do we bring the right voices in? How do we do it? And there's not a good or bad. I don't want to make anyone feel bad that might be listening to this. It's that we've lived in such a time where, like, I think a lot of really cool gains have been. Have been made. But to shore up the sides of gains means that you actually, like, have data, you have a plan, you have something that you've built out that has structure.
[00:53:14] Speaker A: Yeah, you need to be able to stress test psychological safety.
And to the point of data, like, you need to be able to.
If there's a group of employees who feel a certain way and they happen to all be from, you know, like, marginalized slash underrepresented backgrounds, like, you need to make sure that that feedback is, is coming in like it's being heard. You can't just say, like, oh, 90% of people here feel like the company is psychologically safe, but 100% of underrepresented employees of certain identities feel like it's not psychologically safe. And you have, you know, an issue.
[00:53:53] Speaker B: So, yeah, I mean, this is the world that I think we both play in. And I mean, I love that people want to. I love that people want these things to be. That they want to be able to say these things about their company. And the thing that I always think about is, like, these are such broad, wild claims to make, but you could make them if you did the right kind of work and you aspired. Aspired and built a good plan for it.
[00:54:21] Speaker A: I think one thing that's been on my mind at HBP lately is, like, my experience is not the same as all employees at hvp. And just as you were saying, the importance of a good boss and a good team around you. Other people's experience at the company is going to be very different than mine, depending on who their manager is. I just happen to get fortunate. And I'd like to make that as something a little bit more than the luck of the draw. Like having, like, core competencies around, you know, like, management or leadership capabilities that can be measured across all people. Managers at the company would be fantastic. But we don't.
We're moving in that direction, but we don't have them now. So right now I'm like, oh, I feel like I'm in like, I don't think I'm being like, people are feel a certain way about my experience here at hvp, like other employees, because that's not my fault. But I do feel a certain way of responsibility about having such a great time here while other people may not be all right.
[00:55:23] Speaker B: So as we're heading towards the end of the interview, we're going to go into the crucial three, which is going to be three scaling and difficulty questions. But before we get there, I would love to hear a bit about your current projects that you're doing outside of work. So you'd mentioned your current band and anything else that you're that you're working on outside of. Outside of work that could also include your volunteer work or any of those things.
[00:55:46] Speaker A: Yeah. So recently I, myself and a good friend of mine were leading an adoptee committee that I mentioned. The committee operated under a national organization, national association of Asian American Professional Professionals.
We, for a number of reasons, felt like that wasn't the right way of operating a group about adoptee empowerment because we had all these parameters that were put on us by non adoptees in the work that we were doing so we could lead and develop our own programming and our own communities. But at the end of the day, we had certain parameters that were put on it. So one thing that we're working on is moving that out of this like this umbrella of nap and doing something on our own doing, continuing with the community building, continuing with the events. One thing that I'd love to put out there at some point is a conversation card deck. Like, you know how you have them at meeting tables, like icebreaker cards.
I'd love to do one for adoptees and adoptive like. So adoptee questions would be on one side and like parents or caregivers of adoptees would be on the other side. Just to help facilitate conversations around adoption issues for for probably like, I'm thinking of like a early young adult teen type of audience.
No model, the band I mentioned, we just did a collaboration with a group called Adoptees for Justice, which advocates for citizenship for undocumented adoptees in the US we ra so we collaborated with another adoptee who is a tattoo artist. She made a flash sheet for us that's inspired or based on no Models lyrics to our last ep.
And we had our friend Morgan, a tattoo artist named Sean May, and based out of Portland, Oregon. We had Our friend Morgan, who's another tattoo artist, and they're based out of Louisville, Kentucky, I believe, and they're a print maker. So we had this person print all of these prints and we raised like $1,400 for adoptees for justice selling them. And I thought that that was a really cool project because it was something that, from top to bottom, like idea to printing was completely done with by adoptees, like for adoptees to benefit adoptees. I just don't think that I don't see that very often that there's an initiative that's completely like from top to bottom, adoptee led. So that was pretty cool. Aside from that, I just like, I have other bands that I'm in always doing kind of like that kind of stuff, music stuff. Very fortunate to like still be playing. One of my other bands is. It's funny because, like everyone else in the band, aside aside from like one other member, is like. Is like literally 19 or 20 years old. And they're like bread and butter. Like, they're sweet. Like their. Their place in hardcore is that like early 2000s, like American nightmare type of like kind of like melodic hardcore before it was called melodic hardcore. And I just play guitar in that band and I'm like, I'm only here to keep you guys honest about like the early B9 scene and all of that.
So. So yeah, they're trying to do like, like American Nightmare. Count me out. Like all those like, you know, melodic hardcore bands of the early 2000s that weren't called melodic hardcore bands. So that's. That's kind of funny. So, yeah, I always have like music, music stuff going on.
[00:59:19] Speaker B: I could go on and on about American Nightmare and what a cultural shift that was for all sorts of reasons. Like really, Really.
I. I know they're a legendary band, of course, but I think like under the underscore, culturally and kind of like what they signaled was okay was really cool and Unbroken would be a band that had done something similar to that before that and like, you know, all those things.
Cool. All right, so listen. Yeah, that's a good stuff. And then we'll get all that information. We'll put it in the, in the bio of the episode. All right, you ready for the. For the Crucial three?
[00:59:54] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, let's go.
[00:59:56] Speaker B: All right, so you are clearly a very self reflective person.
What is one thing about yourself? And it could be personal or professional that either you didn't like or you'd gotten feedback on that you should work on. What's one thing that you worked on and you have been successful in addressing. So not like, oh, and I'm still working on it. I want to know, like, what's something you really decided I'm going to work on and you actually were able to.
[01:00:27] Speaker A: Get there, showing up as a leader.
I am.
Up until a couple years ago, we actually didn't get into this, but I was going to mention my name change. Being like a very public and like in my, in my mid-30s being like, once I was able to blend and kind of like blend my adoptee identity with my work identity, it was almost like a light switch flip for me. Like I felt more authentic to myself and then I could show up more authentically at work. So I was, you know, terrified of leading teams for a long time.
I think part of it was not having experience doing it. But now I'm leading three of our employee resource groups at Harvard Business Publishing, which includes, you know, each of these groups has two or three co leads that lead the actual committee. So I have kind of a managerial oversight of it and being able to, to feel more comfortable doing that in addition to the coaching and help that I received from the boss who I mentioned has been very beneficial. I feel like in the last year or so there's just been this huge switch in me of feeling more confident and more able to do that.
[01:01:48] Speaker B: Second question is going to touch on the name change. So I'm glad that you brought that in. I have a question for you. Can you share with us whatever you're comfortable with about reclaiming your name and what you've gotten from that, like what the benefits were and then if there were any challenges that you had to manage yourself.
[01:02:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
So the name change came about about a couple years ago. It was socialized long before that. So it was. I had been using my, my Korean birth name on like my, my Instagram handle, for example, with my closest friends.
But it wasn't until a couple years ago that I went through the process of collecting all of my, the paperwork that I had applying for a legal name change, which requires like all these documentations that I don't think they factor in that adoptees may not have.
And I put it all together. I submitted my name change application, I got my license back in the mail, and literally, I think like a week later I was presenting on that experience of changing my name at a conference in front of 700 people.
And I think it was just this huge boost of just like self confidence and living into my identity. And of course, like, it's not like completely Gone. Like, I still struggle with these things depending on the spaces I'm in and everything else. But I think, yeah, as I was saying before, it just, like, helped me blend, like, my. My personal life, my music life, my friends, my relationships, my work life. Like, all these things finally felt like they had some cohesion in them and I didn't. I wasn't masking or, like, showing up differently in some way between these different groups. Like, I still compartmentalize a lot. Like, I think I. It's just like kind of a trauma response or something I've done because of my adoption identity. But there was definitely a turning point. Like, when I legally changed my name. Kind of, like, talked about why and how I did it in front of this, like, a room of 700 Asian people who. A lot of, like, adoptee.
The adoption in general in the Asian community is still, like, kind of like people don't know what to make of it so much. It's like, oh, you don't know the language. You don't know the, like, culture and traditions as much because you were raised by a white family. There's still some apprehension there about how to relate to us. But being able to just, like, share that was very empowering. And like, yeah, light bulb moment for me just to be able to bring that to the workplace too.
I think the challenges for it coming out of it were really around, you know, technicalities. Like, I'm still updating things around me. Like, I'm still updating my car insurance. Like, is still in my old name. Like, I just haven't gotten around to it yet. And all of these things that, like, you, You. You check them off one by one, like, okay, I've updated my bank accounts. I've updated, like, my driver's license. But now I have, like, all these other things I have to address. And someone actually asked me recently if it was difficult, like, sharing. Another adoptee asked me if it was difficult sharing with. With co workers and how that went. And luckily, for the reasons I mentioned before, I just had a lot of support in the decision, a lot of support from our previous chro. Her name's Angela. She was, like, very encouraging, very, you know, made me feel good about it. And I think that that helped me speak more confidently about, like, why and what it meant to me to, like, to my colleagues at work who, like, I don't work with on an immediate team.
So that was cool. But, yeah, I think a lot of the challenges around the technical stuff, which isn't, you know, isn't that fun.
[01:05:52] Speaker B: You ready for the last question?
[01:05:54] Speaker A: Sure, sure.
[01:05:56] Speaker B: What advice do you have for adoptees who are feeling somewhat or entirely the same way that you felt? So they're listening to this and they're saying, like, yeah, that I speak to that. Like, I am feeling a cultural or personal erasure. I am feeling that kind of like, who am I here? Why am I here?
I am struggling with my identity in this world. What advice do you have about the steps that they could take to start exploring, at least to start addressing that for themselves?
[01:06:30] Speaker A: Yeah, I think I sort of previewed a response to this earlier which is simply like, speak your truth, because if you don't, someone else is going to for you. Like some, like, we've had our opinions and our voices, we've been talked over, or like, not given the agency to share our feelings about our identity for so long.
And just like a concrete example, like, there is a pretty popular movie that came out relatively recently called Joyride.
It was about kind of like an adoptee, her trip back to her birth country, all these things having to do with like, adoption identity. Like, that was the core focus and theme of the movie. And then we learned that, like, there were no adoptees involved in writing the screenplay, directing the movie, casting. The actor who portrayed the adoptee wasn't adopted. Another example is the movie Blue Bayou was lifted from an adoptee, Adam Krabser, who was deported from the US he's a Korean adoptee. He was deported at like 35 or 36 years old back to Korea, had never been there before, didn't speak the language, and he got a non violent misdemeanor and they picked him up. And because he didn't, he didn't have citizenship here in the country because of the failure of his adopted family to like, fill out the correct paperwork. He was deported. And after the movie is released, Adam Crapser was like, I didn't like, give consent for anyone to tell my story, let alone like a dramatic dramatization of it. Like, it wasn't exactly his story, but it was his story. Like, it was the exact thing that happened to him. So, yeah, for adoptees, speak up, share your truth, and also, like, be in community with other adoptees who will support you and help you do that.
[01:08:26] Speaker B: All right, you ready for hardcore?
[01:08:27] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[01:08:29] Speaker B: All right, so you live in a very, very storied area for punk and hardcore.
Top three. Not like arguably, what's the greatest record or the greatest band, blah, blah, but top three. What are the top three most important New England bands for you?
[01:08:48] Speaker A: For Me.
Okay. I'm gonna go. Bands, not albums. Like, yeah, okay, I'll just. I'll just go. Bands. I'm gonna go Bane. Probably like one of my first large shows I went to.
Well, I went to the 10 year anniversary. I saw them one time before that. Seen them like maybe like a dozen times over the last, like 15 years, and then got to play with them for the first time like two weekends ago or three weekends ago. So that was pretty cool.
The second, I would go with American Nightmare.
And third, we're all in the same cohort. I'm going to go. Suicide file.
[01:09:31] Speaker B: Whoa.
[01:09:32] Speaker A: Okay.
Good.
[01:09:34] Speaker B: Good outsider choice. And I mean, you know, you can't go wrong with any of those ones. Awesome. All right. Anything that you want to add in as we're closing off?
[01:09:44] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I don't. I don't even think so. I think this was a great conversation. Really loved everything we got into. I love where you took different questions and different. Kind of played off the responses a bit.
Yeah, this is great. I don't think I have anything to add that I can think of.
[01:10:04] Speaker B: Heck, yeah. Well, I'll just say in our immediate family, not my personal story, but in my immediate family, there's an adoption story. And so much of what you said touched so much on a loved one of mine. Experience as well, different, but there. There are similarities. And I just believe it's just such a.
It's very, very cool that you are so willing to talk about these things. And it is like true leadership to be able to be out there like that. And I know it makes a big difference. So thank you so much for all you do. Really appreciate it.
[01:10:41] Speaker A: Thank you. And I think just to respond to what you just said, I think a lot of adoptees do lack community with other adoptees. So having people in their lives like you, who are willing to listen and, you know, empathize with that experience is so important to us. And, you know, I'll always remember the people that were there for me when I didn't have adoptees around me.
I didn't even know any until like maybe like 10 years ago or something.
So, yeah, very important to have people like you showing up for us. So thank you.
[01:11:11] Speaker B: Heck, yeah. Thank you so much. And then any links that you have for resources for any adoptees, we'll happily put in. Put in the. The episode bio, everyone. I hope you got as much out of that as I did. As I said, I just love when people reach out and are like, hey, I got, you know, I want to be on the podcast. I got something to say that is using your voice and leadership shows up in all sorts of different ways, both the personal and the professional in the community.
And it's important to get out there and talk. So thank you so much. I really appreciate you coming on. And everyone will see you next time on One Step Beyond, One Stop.
[01:11:47] Speaker A: One stop?
What step Beyond.
