Chris Hammell, Owner of Town Barber

[00:00:01] Speaker A: So I think that, like, when I was at my lowest point in my own heart and mind, I was also at my lowest point in the fucking business. And I was watching it crumble, and I thought I was doing things that were like, oh, this will help. And I was kind of haphazardly doing them, but I wasn't doing the work on myself. So therefore, the business was struggling because I couldn't ask for that help. [00:00:24] Speaker B: That was a clip from today's guest, Chris Hamill. Chris is the owner of town Barber and co owner of major Treat in Toronto. After spending years traveling and working on the road with bands, he was searching for a career that would combine the satisfaction of helping people and the joy of sleeping in his own bed. This is a great conversation, and Chris is an even better friend. What I love about this discussion is his openness. And, of course, we're going to hear about all the cool stuff of being an entrepreneur and opening your business and the challenges. And Chris is also very open around the struggles that he has faced, both in starting a business, but also around his mental health, which I think is such an important conversation. Along those lines, I do wanna say if you're someone who's ready for that conversation and you're very interested in hearing someone's story, awesome. This is an incredible conversation for you. If, for whatever reason, you're a bit sensitive to those topics, then absolutely, this might want to be an episode that you digest in chunks or come back to it another time. My suggestion is this. This is an incredibly important conversation, and Chris speaks about it in such an amazing and genuine way. So I think there's a lot of value in checking it out. It's up to you. I'm Aram Arslanian, and this is one step beyond. [00:02:08] Speaker C: All right, everyone, welcome back. And Chris, welcome to the show. [00:02:11] Speaker A: Thanks for having me. [00:02:12] Speaker C: All right, for the uninitiated, people who wouldn't know, who are you and what do you do? [00:02:16] Speaker A: My name is Chris Hamill. I have a couple barbershops called town Barber in Toronto, and a couple coffee shops that I partner with my friend Martin. They're called major treat coffee. [00:02:29] Speaker C: Okay. These are gentlemanly pursuits that you're in. Haircuts and coffee. [00:02:34] Speaker A: Yeah, community based pursuits, let's call it. I think the idea was just to create places that I wanted to hang out, and I felt comfortable hanging out after spending a long time on the road. Those were kind of things that I would always seek out. And I fell into barbering, and that made sense. And then coffee was always something that was, you know, a thought in the back of my mind. Like, I think I did a high school presentation where I was, I made a business plan for a coffee shop, record shop, which is funny because now we've partnered with a record shop in our newest coffee shop, so it exists. I just don't own the whole thing and probably for the better, you know? [00:03:12] Speaker C: Well, you know, often, like people in the punk and hardcore world, if they don't have like, a career career and they're not gonna do music or something music related. It seems that like, a lot of people focus on either barbering or the coffee industry 100%. [00:03:27] Speaker A: And I think that they're both, neither are easy to learn, but they're both fairly accessible and fairly, you know, you can dress how you wanna dress for the most part. You can kinda look a little weird. Like, I mean, I'm sure I would have probably ended up being a tattooer if I could draw properly, but it was similar lifestyles, you know, and I, and I think that, like, what appealed to me about, about both was the social aspect as well as the community aspect, as well as, like, being able to kind of leave work at work for the most part. I mean, outside of owning the business, I think as I was learning both, both of those things, I mean, I'm just picking up coffee now as a skill, but, like, keeping those things at work was, was a lot easier before owning the business, you know? [00:04:12] Speaker C: Yeah. So let's get into it very specifically about that idea of being able to leave things at home. Because if you work somewhere and you have like a decent, you know, decent boss or decent culture, right. You can work and then leave it at home very often. What about being a business owner? [00:04:28] Speaker A: You never, you're never away from it. Like, I, I've tried to, like, set those boundaries. I try to say, like, absolutely no work calls or work anything on Mondays. Monday is my day, like family day or whatever, like, I just make it like, you know, and I'm still fielding one or two questions and not everybody in the company always knows that that's a thing. And I might get an email, like, hey, I need a letter of reference or whatever. And so you're always kind of like, you're always present, you're always, you know, I've since moved out of the city, so it's kind of been a little better for creating a divide between work and home life. You know, at the beginning of the pandemic, I was looking at buying the building that my Dundas street shop is in, and I think about it now, because I was going to live upstairs, and I was like, man, that would have been the worst. I would have always been at work. And at the time, I was like, oh, I can always be at work. That was what I was striving to do. And now it's like, I like having the division, I like having the separation, because I often find that I'm like, I might not be at work nine to five every day. I'm sometimes there nine to nine or later after it closes, I got to repair something. It's a little easier to create a divide if you really make it, but you're never fully away from it, for sure. [00:05:43] Speaker C: So very often when I'm working with people, there's kind of the stories of people who sought out being a leader, and not that they're like, oh, I want to be a leader, but they're like, oh, I want to go up in an organization, or I want to own a business that has people that do this stuff. So their intent is to work somewhere and be in a position that allows them to have that experience or create something where they have employees. And then other people just kind of fall ass backwards into it. Like, I never intended to do this, but now I find myself as being a leader. Which of those are you? [00:06:11] Speaker A: Kind of a combination of both, really. Like, I think that, like, I. It's funny, I worked for somebody else in barbering. I was. I worked at another shop, and when I was fired, my friend, my friend Glennie said to me, like, you're probably going to be a great boss because you were probably a really shitty employee. And I was like, what is that supposed to mean? And I was, like, at first I was, like, kind of bummed, and then I really, like, looked at what she was talking about and saying that, like, I understand the way it is from that perspective. And I don't take, like, I don't take well to leadership in a lot of cases. Like, I don't. I don't. I don't always do what I'm told, and so I kind of find my way around it. And I've got employees like that, too, that I really admire that about them. But I think that some people just can't. They're better leaders than followers. And I think that, like, I don't think that all employees are followers, per se, but I think that, like, I fell into a situation where I recognized that it might not be a good thing for me to have a boss because we'd be butting heads or relationships get changed, we'll call it. [00:07:18] Speaker C: That is hilarious that you say that. Do you mind if I share something? [00:07:21] Speaker A: No. I love that. [00:07:24] Speaker C: My last job is what I believe will be my last boss. I just couldn't stand this dude. Worst. Just couldn't stand him. But every single year that I go by that I'm running cadence, I'm like, oh, okay, that guy still sucks, but this is why he did that, or. [00:07:41] Speaker A: This is why that you learned from it. [00:07:42] Speaker C: I've totally learned from it. And I've learned that, like, I've also learned that I was a real shithead. Like, I wouldn't have wanted to be my own boss. Cause I was, like, you know, like, smartest guy in the room. Like, always pointing at all the cracks, and I was, like, the classic guy that, like, had opinions and zero expertise, right? And I'd be like, this should be like this. This should be like that. And sometimes I was right, but I was right, but didn't understand the context of why it was happening. Other times, I was right, and I was just right. Other times, I was, like, just ignorant. Like, didn't know what I was talking about, but I would take these positions. And I just think back, like, oh, when you said, you're probably a shitty employee, so you'd be a good boss, it was like, I was actually probably a pretty shitty employee in terms of unpleasant to deal with. So I was always bringing problems to the table rather than saying, how can I help? Or how can I be of service here? [00:08:29] Speaker A: True. And, like, do you think you learn more from. How can I put this? Do you think you learn more from, like, thinking you were always right, or do you think you learn more from just, like, being in the position yourself and putting it out there and being like, okay, well, I'm now the boss, so I have to learn this. Or do you think you were actually so right that that interaction with that boss taught you more about being a boss? [00:08:51] Speaker C: I learned three things. I learned more about being a boss by actually having to put my money where my mouth is. And anyone can have an opinion and point out problems. Very few people can hear a problem, and they come up with a solution. So I learned a lot about being a boss just by doing it and having to. Literally, if I don't fix this stuff or unless I do this, well, I'm going to fail and I'm going to let everyone down. I will always think my old boss sucked, and I will never, ever not think that because he sucks. [00:09:20] Speaker A: Of course. Of course. It's the worst. [00:09:21] Speaker C: However, what I learned is I literally was a real shithead as an employee, and having to know it all attitude is just, like, crippling if you want to do anything cool in the world. That's the first thing. The second thing is I learned about how to be an actual coach, though, by being in a space where the culture sucked at the company I was in, and the process sucked. So to do what I do, I learned by having a bad boss. [00:09:47] Speaker A: Awesome. [00:09:48] Speaker C: Because the bad boss, I was like, hey, everything this guy does sucks, but the way he thinks about this work sucks. But I have to kind of mind those guidelines while doing really good work. So it helped me be really creative in my process, which kind of set me up to do the business. But the third thing that I learned is, like, being insecure because, like, you know, I grew up. I grew up kind of in a weird situation where I have, like, a lot of, like, base insecurities about trying to, like, prove myself. And being in a situation that was as toxic as the one that I worked in beforehand really taught me. It's like, if you feed into that, you are fucked for the rest of your life. [00:10:27] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:10:27] Speaker C: Really helped me, like, turn that down and just get really good at something. And. And just as long as I knew I was good at it, it was good. [00:10:35] Speaker A: Awesome. [00:10:35] Speaker C: So that's the three things. But I learned how to be a business leader by being like, well, I just got fired, so I better figure it out. [00:10:42] Speaker A: And then you hit the ground running, and I. And I think that that's, like, a really valuable thing, because I think that people, you were able to say, you were able to leave that and not only take the negativity of getting fired, you can still say, like, there's a positive in that. I always used to say, oh, my old boss is a total piece of shit as a human, but he was a great barber. And I realized that I was saying that from a perspective of trying to find a positive in a negative situation. But really, I did learn a lot watching and coming up with him because I think when he started the business, I was by his side the whole time. So I was kind of implementing some things that I wanted to see in a business, and I was able to help create a culture that, whether it got sidelined or not, was healthy at a time. And I could take those things and move forward with my own when I was given the opportunity, you know? [00:11:34] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. So in doing this, like, I'd imagine you've learned a lot about yourself and having multiple locations of two different businesses. [00:11:41] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:11:42] Speaker C: What's something that you've learned about yourself that you were pleasantly surprised to learn from actually being a boss and business owner? [00:11:50] Speaker A: I think. I mean, I've been doing a lot of work on myself more recently than in the past. I think I've learned a lot about my adaptability and a lot about my, like, in recent years, I'd say the last five, I've learned a lot on how, like, how to stay calm under pressure, how to, like, not fly off the handle, how to not, you know, and it still comes out all the time. It's going to. That's my. In my. In my nature. Like, I'm a very fiery personality. I think it comes from drive, but I think that if I can find a solution in something, I'll do my best to do it. Now I'm able to kind of stay a little more grounded, and I think that I've worked on meditation. When I'm in better physical shape, I'm able to make better decisions. I've let that go, fall by the wayside in the last little while. So I've been, like, slowly trying to get back into running and other exercise and yoga and stuff like that. And I think that, like, when I am firing on all cylinders, when I'm at my best, I'm actually working on myself as well. So if I. If I'm able to, like, jump into a situation that normally I'd be like, oh, my God, the room's on fire now. I can walk in and be like, okay, there's a fire extinguisher right there. Like, I can just grab it and, you know, instead of running around panicking, I'm able to, like, slow down a little bit and kind of take a step back and figure out what the solution is before I panic. So I don't know if that answers your question, but it's a little more adaptable than. [00:13:22] Speaker C: How did you learn that, though? [00:13:24] Speaker A: I think taking time, I think, just, like, it's funny, my mom's been teaching yoga since the seventies. She's been doing yoga forever, and no teenage kid wants to do what their mom thinks is cool. So I avoided it at all costs my whole life, and I think it found me at a time that I really needed it in my life. And so meditation and yoga go hand in hand, and I think that when I really took the time to actually find ten minutes a day of just, like, and everyone that's like, I can't meditate. I can't meditate. No, no, you just won't meditate. So. And I don't think it's a solution for everybody, but when I was able to find ten minutes to just completely shut everything off, it doesn't always mean sitting there with an app or sitting there in dead silence or dark or whatever sometimes is lying down and just breathing and, like, finding that feeling of calm really helped me kind of put that into my practice as a boss and, like, you know, taking a step aside and going like, okay, I don't. This doesn't need. The room's not on fire. You know, there's a candle on. You know what I mean? So I think just, like, finding that stillness and finding that, like, time for myself. It's taken a lot of fucking work to do it. I did the, like, tried headspace for a full year, 365 days. Congratulations. You get the trophy in the app or whatever. Tried calm for a year. I tried this, like, what was it called? Muse. It's like a head sensing. It's like, it, like, monitors your brain waves to, like, feel when you're actually truly calm. And I'm sure there's some bullshit to it, but it actually worked because I would feel that, and I. And I could tell when I was actually relaxed. So, like, you know, three years of every single day, a different app. Now I can do it without an app. I don't need technology. I love technology. I love the gizmos and gadgets and stuff. But I think that once I was able to figure out that meditation isn't just ten minutes of silence, isn't just sometimes it's having a cup of coffee and just staring out the window and taking that time to slow down. You can get that feeling when you need it again. You can access it when you want it to be there. You know what I mean? So. [00:15:39] Speaker C: Well, let's flip it. What's something that you've learned about yourself that you didn't know before, you learned via being, like, a business owner and a leader. What's something that you've learned about yourself that you don't like and that you've been working on? [00:15:52] Speaker A: I have very. I've kind of always known this, so I think that it's kind of like a. It might not be the answer you're looking for, but I have very low self worth, and I have a very low self esteem, and I'm very self deprecating. And I think that I've been trying to work through. Work with my therapist, or I've gone through therapy at different times in my life for grief, and I had a period of time with my teenagers where I had a lot of loss. And so I went to anger management and grief counseling and all these things. And when they were covered under my mom's benefits, and then when that ran out, it was like, okay, well, I struggled with depression and trying to figure out a lot about myself of the, why. Like, why do I feel this way? Why am I having suicidal thoughts? Why am I in this space? And I think that once I was able to kind of address that and realize that my internal dialogue of knocking myself down wasn't helping anything. And so when I hit a really heavy low in, like, you know, the middle of the pandemic, it was hard because I was struggling with, like, I was on this upper trajectory. Growth in my. In my companies. Like, I was ready to expand the businesses. And I had only known growth in the business for, like, eight years. And now I'm in survival mode for two years. But I didn't take the time to properly figure out how to encourage myself to say, like, listen, dude, like, you had fucking eight years of growth. You can grow this and you can take this. It can plateau for a little bit to grow again, and if it drops off, you can go back up. I just kept saying, oh, this is probably my fault. This is because I fucked this up or I fucked that up or whatever. And I would always attack myself. And I think that, like, learning, learning to, like, understand that has been the hardest part, for sure. Like, seeing that in myself and, like, it comes out a lot in business because it's like, oh, that person left. That's probably because I suck as a boss. You know, that person moved on or whatever. They don't talk to me anymore because of this. Or that client stopped coming to the shop. That's because I haven't made it comfortable enough for them. That's my fault. You know what I mean? There are other factors at play, but I think I ultimately always go back onto myself. And so I'm trying to learn to accept and move forward as opposed to continue the cycle of attacking myself for it. [00:18:37] Speaker C: Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that with me. Something that stood out ever since we've known each other. And I give a big shout out to Dan Smith, of course, best friend of the show, wonderful, wonderful guy. He's who really first, we'd kind of been interacting with. When you and I first started spending time together at Yumi and Monica. One of the things that I know we both really appreciated was how open and honest you were about struggles that you've had around mental health, and it's such a wild thing. So I'll be 49 this year. How old are you? [00:19:11] Speaker A: I'm 40. [00:19:11] Speaker C: 40. Okay. You know, we're right in that demographic of, like, men who have just a certain amount of, like, progress in their careers and, like, maybe got a little bit of taste of success. Who were in the demographic of men who kill themselves. [00:19:27] Speaker A: Right. [00:19:27] Speaker C: And I think about this a lot because I didn't start losing friends till I was in my forties, right. And then suddenly I was like, oh, so and so passed away. And it was like, you know that code, like, so. You know, so and so passed away, and it's like, oh, I know what you really mean. Like, this person killed themselves. And I think it's more important than ever that people in general, and men very specifically for this conversation, get really comfortable talking about what's going on for them. Mental health so specific to you. You've been so open and honest with myself and Monica, just as we're chatting, hanging out about what's going on as friends do. [00:20:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:08] Speaker C: Being in that space, how do you manage it as a leader, especially? Like, I love that you opened up about that pandemic, because I do want to talk about that later on because the nature of your business is like an in person business. [00:20:19] Speaker A: We were shut for, like, 400 days or something. So it's like, yeah, I think, like, to kind of go back to what I was saying before with my, like, acceptance of getting back into therapy and so on. Like, I went in through this whole phase where I was like, I had a really shitty therapist, and I had a really. It was an anger management therapist, and this guy was like. He was like a fucking South park character. And I just. I. Like, everything about him was the worst, and it didn't. He might have been a great therapist, but he wasn't for me. And so I think that my. My thinking went into, well, I have really good friends, so I don't need therapy. [00:20:54] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:20:54] Speaker A: And I think a lot of people kind of think that they're talking about these things with their friends, and they really aren't. I can give you an example of my 30th birthday. I had just split up with my girlfriend, who's now my wife. My dog was super sick. I moved the day before into my own apartment for the first time, living completely alone. I've always had roommates or partner or whatever, and I was at full rock bottom. My boss, who was also one of my close friends, I called him for help because I thought that I was going to go into crisis. And I. And I asked him to come over. He lived two blocks away. And he told me, sorry, dude. I'm watching the west wing. And I was like, what the f. Like, really? That's where our friendship is. I'm asking you for help, and you can't. And I couldn't have been more clear that I was in dark place. And I hung up the phone, and literally, as I held my phone there and thought about further harming myself, Dan called me. Birthday call, best friend. He has always been that guy. And he always just shows up kind of in my life when I need him, you know, without even knowing. It's just like, this, like, connection. And I remember, like, sitting there and looking at my dog and being, like, talking to Dan and not telling him anything. Cause I didn't want. I didn't want to burden him. I didn't want him. Cause he would literally be the friend that would be like, I'll get on a fucking plane tomorrow. And I know he would. And so I didn't want. I have very few people in my life that are. That in tune and that, like, close that would do that. And so I didn't want to tell him where I was at. And I think just, like, the tone of his voice, the fact that it didn't seem like a robotic, like, happy birthday, hope you have a great day call. It was like he genuinely cared where I was at, what I was doing. And as we always. I talked to Dan most days, and it's always like, if the conversation goes nowhere, we're always laughing. We're always, like, checking in on each other, you know? And I think that that was so important for me at that moment because it. I can legitimately say it saved my life. And so I think that, like, whether he knew that or not, it was. It was kind of a hard thing for me to step back and go, okay, well, maybe I do need more than good friends. Maybe I do need to do the work with a therapist, do the work with somebody who has training in this, because although Dan knows exactly what to say and when to say it, same with my friend Benny. My friend Rock. Like, Mike, who you now know, like, these guys are dudes that I'm really comfortable opening up to that I'm like that I feel like they understand me. But there's something about taking that extra step to get, quote unquote, professional help, somebody that might know other questions to ask, might know ways to steer the conversation that I think are. It's so important, you know? And I know that that's your background. And I'm someone that a lot of people turn to for help with addiction and some mental health stuff, but mostly, like, addiction and sobriety stuff. And although explaining to somebody that I'm sober because of straight edge, it was a path that I chose as a kid, not because I found sobriety later on, I think there's some comfort in that. But I'm always like, listen, I can get you to a meeting if you need that. I can get you to people who I will have you sit down with and they'll help. But I can give you some advice, but I can't come from that place because it's not my world. I'll just get you there. I'll give you the tools. I think that everybody needs that, whether it's for sobriety or whether it's for depression, suicidal thoughts, anything like that, that is in the realm of, like, self harm or feelings of low self worth or something like that, it will translate into, you know, you got to start with yourself before you can make your business better. And so I think that, like, when I was at my lowest point in. In my own heart and mind, I was also at my lowest point in the fucking business. And I was watching it crumble, and I thought I was doing things that were like, oh, this will help. And I was kind of haphazardly doing them, but I wasn't doing the work on myself. So therefore the business was struggling because I couldn't ask for that help. And I thought I was asking for help for some people and maybe they didn't understand what I was asking or maybe they didn't care, or maybe they were too self involved with what they had going on or whatever. I think it was a really rough patch that I'm two and a half years later starting to figure out how to come out of. [00:25:47] Speaker C: Well, I love what you said there, man, because everyone's got different things going on for them. And, for example, it's like, I think we think of different kinds of careers and different kinds of things that people want to get into. We should try and make those things accessible so that people can do them. When it comes to mental health, I think some of the maybe prevailing thinking 2030 years ago would like, oh, if you have, like, serious mental health concerns, depression, anxiety, any, you know, any personality disorder, any of these things, you shouldn't be running a business or you shouldn't. And I don't think that was, like something society, like, planted to the flat, but it was like the unspoken for sure the unspoken thing. They're not fit to do that I would always hear, yeah, yeah, perfect. Yeah. Like, what you're saying, and the way it's landing with me, like, is just like, listen, people live with stuff, man. They live. People live with depression, anxiety. They have all sorts of stuff going on for them. And I think our job should be to have as big of, like, open conversations about being like, hey, you want to start a business and you've got this thing you're living with? Great. Okay, so here's some of the practical things you can do to manage that, and here's some of the resources you can go. If you hit a low and you're starting to bottom out, you need some support. And here's also some practical business stuff. This is how you scale up. [00:27:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:05] Speaker C: In my mind, it's like, challenges with mental health should be really openly spoken about so that we can enable people to follow their passions and do the things that matter to them. And that's so much what your story says to me. [00:27:18] Speaker A: And, I mean, as a result, bring other people up in it, because whether they might be struggling, too, and having seen someone leading the way in, that makes it easier in itself, you know? Yeah, it's a weird thing. Cause it's like, I think it's funny that the conversation is steered that way. As much as I hate celebrity, I think it always takes a celebrity to really put a magnifying glass on something. I remember when everybody was like, Covid, this is fucking bullshit, this thing. And then Tom Hanks got it, and everybody was like, oh, my God, it's real. And it was like, it's always the funny guy that kills himself. And everyone's like, that's bullshit. And then Robin Williams does it, and it's like, whoa, this is something we need to talk more about. And I think as mental health becomes, like, the cool thing to talk about and people shit on that being, I think it's actually really important. I think it is important that we are having this conversation. And as cliche as it might be or whatever, I think that people need to understand that, like, you know, certain. Certain things do need to be discussed. And, you know, I've had offers like, oh, come to this men's group or do this. And I'm just like, that's not gonna be my thing. Like, it doesn't work. But, like, I also don't want to be. I'm not comfortable being medicated for my brain right now. And I think that this is probably a more loaded conversation for you and I as straight edge dudes, I will 100% sooner start microdosing mushrooms before I start taking a pharmaceutical that I feel like would be a more dangerous addiction path for me. You know what I mean? And straight edge or not, I will do what I need to do to fix myself. And I've done a lot of reading and watching documentaries and things about stuff like that because I need to know where it could go. And I think that translates to business, too. It's like, you want to be looking three steps ahead, and that might not be the path you take, but you know what's over there in case you get there. So it's like, if I'm looking at, this is help right here in front of me, and this is a therapist, and this is, you know, the oper. The option from a therapist to medicine, whether it be a plant or a pharmaceutical. I want to know what that is just as, like, I want to open more shops, but I might just stay with two, and that's fine, too. Like, you have to look ahead, and a big part of that is, like, cleaning your own house up first, you know? [00:29:47] Speaker C: Totally, man. To go to the micro dosing thing is an interesting conversation. So I've got a good friend of mine. We're having dinner about a year ago or so, and he. He had this kind of, like, admission to me, like, hey, man, you know, I got to talk to you about something, and you're straight edge long enough, you know what? This? [00:30:09] Speaker A: Yeah. Hundred percent, 100%. [00:30:10] Speaker C: And I'm like, I'm waiting to say, like, you know, I got wasted or, you know, this or that, and, like, hey, I don't care, dude, it's you. [00:30:17] Speaker A: You do. You're adults. [00:30:18] Speaker C: Yeah, but it was more like, listen, man, you know, I live with, like, really serious anxiety, and I started microdosing mushrooms to help manage it, right? And it's working really well for me. And I was like, okay, awesome. And I'm waiting for him to be like. And I got wasted. And he's like, well, I don't feel comfortable calling myself straight edge. I was like, well, first of all, call yourself what you want. I don't care. Second, I don't see how that doesn't make you straight edge. It's like, you're not getting wasted, right? And he's like, oh, no. It just makes me not want to, like, do something crazy. I was like, oh, so you're just taking medicine? [00:30:50] Speaker A: He's like, yeah, totally. [00:30:53] Speaker C: I don't want this to be, like, a. Not that you would want this but it's like, I don't want to get into the debates about what strategy, the laws or any of that stuff. But fundamentally, for me, it's like, you know, like, there's nothing I dislike more than talking to people who are shitty about stuff. [00:31:08] Speaker A: Totally. [00:31:08] Speaker C: And being like, if someone's successful, they're, like, hating on them being successful. Someone's healthy, they're hating on them being healthy. Like, whatever ridiculous thing. I just want people to be fucking happy. If that makes you happy, that's amazing. [00:31:20] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:31:20] Speaker C: Healthy, happy, productive. If you can be those things, you've got a great combination. [00:31:25] Speaker A: Totally. And I think that, like, straight edge was a label I put on myself at fucking 15 years old. You know what I mean? And it's like, that helped me not fall into addiction, not fall into some darker path that maybe I would have been great. Maybe I would have been the most fun drunk guy at the party. Maybe I would have had a beer after work one night a week. Like, whatever that was, that helped me get to where I am. I will continue that because I'm proud of the work that I've done for myself in that, because it was the only self preserving thing I've probably ever done to myself. You know what I mean? And so. So I think that, like, for people to be able to, like, if that label is what gets you through the day, awesome. But he said, like, you said, medicine. If I can take a plant. I knew a straight edge dude, and here I am using air quotes in a situation that, like, he still considered himself straight edge. He fucked his back up, and he was so addicted to painkillers that it was, like, clouding his judgment. He was a different person. And I was like, man, you got to get help for that now because that's not healthy. How many of those you're taking a day? And again, I know athletes who smoke weed for recovery. I think plants as medicine is something that we in western society and straight edge culture and whatever it is kind of turn on. I'm not straight edge because of the fucking law. I'm straight edge for self preservation. So therefore, if I can take something that is natural, that is further preserving myself, and if I don't fall under some 16 year old hard mosh kid from fucking wherever. Midwest, his rule book, then. See you later, dude, I'm 40. I don't give a shit. You know? Like. Like, I. So. So I think that, like, finding that self preservation is. Is important, you know? And. And you will run your business better. You will, you will. Your home life will be better if you. You know what most people say, like, oh, I'm straight, is because I want a clear mind. Well, if I have all this noise in the back of my head, like, hey, dude, jump off that fucking bridge. Or, like, you're worthless. You're worthless, and I can find something that's gonna tone that down. There you go. Like, that's. That's. That's self preservation. That's clear mind. Like, that's. It clears the noise, you know, so totally. I'm not there, just for whatever record. Like, I'm actually currently taking this stuff called Ashwagandha. I have a client who started this company, and he started giving me these, like, dissolvable pills. If you told me there were sugar pills, I wouldn't care because it's working. For the first time in my life, I'm sleeping properly. It's a root. It's like a, you know, a natural thing. And, like, my anxiety is toned way down. I've been taking them for a few months, and I'm, like, noticeably different. And I feel fucking amazing being that that's it. And if that wears down and I start to think, you know, as I combine that with an amazing therapist that I've been speaking to that for the last, like, however long, six months or whatever, has been genuinely helping me, then that's the combination I need right now. And that might graduate into something else, but I feel great with where I'm at now. [00:34:33] Speaker C: Hell yeah, man. Well, let's shift over to the barbershops. So you start the business, you get fired from your last job, and you're like, okay, maybe I was a shitty employee, but I'm going to be a great boss. So, not like, from the very, very beginning, but from when it started to become, like, a straight up business that you were building. Tell us the story of growing the business. [00:34:57] Speaker A: So we started. I kind of. I was, like, fired two weeks before a vacation, a two week vacation where I was, you know, I was going to California, and I think that he knew that. And it was. It was almost, like, strategic because it would, like, stifle me a little further back, so that I went. I got fired, and I jumped on my motorcycle and went across town immediately to my friend's shop, Townmoto. And I sat down and I was like, listen, what can I do? We joked about building a barbershop behind that shop for, like, the first year that they were open. They just closed now for. They've been open for ten years. And I think they just decided it was time. So I was like, can we build a shop behind your shop? And within two weeks, I bought a barber chair, went on that vacation, came back, and the day I got back, I went from the airport to the shop, set up the barber chair, we built an awning in the back, and I cut hair all summer out back. And it was amazing. It was just me and my dog, and it was like my clients were slowly finding me. I was slowly, like, I was operating under the name town barber because it was in town Moto, so it made sense. And I had plans to build a building. It never happened, because building in back alleys in Toronto is a tricky legal situation. So we had a couple of pop up situations. We ended up in rob Dyer, escape for cancer, had a little space we could rent, and I brought another barber on with me at the time, and so he was kind of cutting my clients while I was planning the build and so on and so forth, because I wanted to be really hands on. I love building stuff. I love learning that kind of stuff. Ended up. It got too cold, and the lease was up there new year's eve, and I was Christmas shopping, and I walked into the shop called lost and found, and it's like a menswear shop on, on Ossington. Then I knew it was the neighborhood I wanted to be in, a couple doors down from Talmudo, so it kind of made sense. And they showed me their closet in the back, and they're like, do you want to. You want to have this? And I was like, I only need it for a couple months. And they're like, yeah. Can you fit two chairs in here? And I was like, I like, did the, like, flip 1ft in front of the other, like, measuring. I'm like, I think so. It was so tight that the chairs touched in the middle and touched on the walls on the outside, but it was perfect. We. My buddy Jay is, like, an incredible. He's an architecture professor at University of Toronto, and he helped build this, like, really cool little space. We, like, had this window looking into the shop, so it didn't feel like we were actually in a closet. We had a beautiful light. He kind of built this screen for the light to bounce off. That was just really nice wood. It was a really cool build that we did overnight and didn't skip a beat, just opened up the next spot. And as the owner, I had never met the owner of that shop, and we're both very. We're characters, both of us. So when I met him, I was like, I'm either gonna love or hate this guy? And he, like, smacked me in the nuts and, like, tackled me, and I was like, what the fuck is this guy's deal? And by the end of the guy cut his hair. By the end of the haircut, I'm like, I fucking love this guy. And, like, everybody that's there, the other owner, Justin, is like, easily the sweetest person you've ever met in your life. But Jonathan and I had this, like, friendship. Like, I still go by all the time, and we always make fun of each other. And he's like, I genuinely love them. Like, everyone there, Chris, who worked there, who was she originally suggested we go back there. We had this little family, and it was like, I didn't want to leave that. So we started looking at the place next door. I was like, I'm going to offer the other shop money to close or something. We can be that close to them because it's where we want to be. We were there for a year, and then I found the space that I'm in now on Dundas, and it was kind of the perfect growth that we needed. So we were, we grew to another barber. We had, the three of us, we went in there, got an apprentice, and then I started out with four chairs in there because I was like, it was an old portuguese restaurant. I, like, gutted it, built it over a month. I did a tour with city and color, like, at the beginning of that month, and, like, the little bit of money that I made on that tour paid for half the build. So it was like, I was able to kind of, like, parlay that into building the space out. And we started with four chairs. And within the first year, we had enough employees and enough business that we changed our schedule to be open ten hour days. And we were like, holy shit, how can we keep growing? Let's renovate, let's build, let's add two more chairs. So we did that, and then within two years of that, we were like, I guess we're ready to open another shop. And we opened down on Queen Street. I lived upstairs from the space, so I knew the landlord really well. I'd known her for, like, 20 years, and. And so I called Martin, my business partner at major treat, and I was like, hey, I want to put a coffee shop in my next barbershop. And I want it to be on Queen street, around the corner from the nun Nat shop. And he's like, didn't skip a beat. He's like, let's fucking do it. He hadn't seen the space it was a total shithole. We basically just put lipstick on a pig and like, okay, let's go. And it worked so well. And I made the same mistake there. I started with four chairs, and within the first year there, I'm like, we're expanding again. So we, within the first year, blew the walls out, added two chairs in the back. And it's not the most conventional layout for a barbershop. I like when it's one room, the community aspect of everybody, like, you know, chirping each other across the room. And my shops are designed so that it's not all chairs down one wall. I want everybody kind of, like, culminating the conversation in the middle of the room. I love that aspect of it. And so it's a little lost at Queen street when we add the chairs in the back, but the front room is mainly like that anyway. And I think right now that shop feels a little bit more like the reason I opened than done. That's because we've got newer employees at Dundas, so we're still, we're, like, building back up to that. But, yeah, we had twelve chairs within a couple of years, and we're on a great path to do more. The coffee shop was, it's a separate business, but it operates within the same space. And it's been super fun to, like, I was telling you this when I, when I came in here, like, I've. For six years, it's been open, and I was always like, I'm gonna learn coffee. I'm gonna learn coffee. I'll, you know, I'll figure it out. And Martin's like, he's a lot smarter than me, so he, he jumps into something and gets, like, really good at it really quickly, and I'm like, I'll learn it. I'll be fine. We've scheduled ourselves on the schedule in the coming weeks, and I'm, like, shitting myself that I'm, like, watching YouTube videos now and, like, learning, reading as much as I can because I'm gonna be behind the bar and I wanna do a good job. Like, not for anything but my own relationship with the space. You know what I mean? So I think, like, once I was able to kind of like, you know, build those teams and I was very picky about who I hired and because it all had to work together and, you know, as, you know, people butt heads and it was nice to be able to have somewhere to move them to the other location or, you know, they were dating and it was like, okay, well, you broke up and you don't want to work together anymore. So things like that where, like, you want to be able to do that. But I. But I loved being in both spaces, and I'm kind of only spending my time at Dunn's right now because I'm trying to build that back up. And so, like, being back in the queen space to pour coffee or whatever, it feels comfortable, you know, it's good. [00:42:13] Speaker C: So you were experiencing this very natural, organic growth, but it's pretty quick. Like, you're scaling up very quickly. I know you kind of have plans for other stuff. And then pandemic hits. [00:42:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:25] Speaker C: So tell us about those two years, and what was the impact on your business? [00:42:32] Speaker A: It's funny, at the beginning, I had been go, go, go for so long that I was, like, I was excited to use that. Everyone thought it was going to be two weeks. Remember, two weeks, two weeks, two weeks. And so I think I went into it like, okay, I can sit down for two weeks and plan what's next so that when we come out of this, I can get ready. We were looking at spaces on the east side. We had the perfect space picked out, and so I got really excited about that. And I also was very excited to, like, sort of slow down a little bit. And I started two years before, year before I started painting. And I never really told anybody because I had severe imposter syndrome, and I still do. I don't really show anybody my stuff. I got really excited that I just had this really inspirational trip to California where I got to spend a day with my favorite artist and watch him paint and purchase the painting from him. Had an amazing, inspiring conversation. And so I came back, like, energized. And I was like, I really want to do put some time into this. Not for anything other than it makes me calm. Like, it really, like, grounds me. And so I was really enjoying having that time. So I was kind of looking at it as, like, a welcome break for my mental health to be able to do that. But I think once I really registered that it wasn't two weeks, it caught up, and my mental health was like, oh, fuck. Now I'm in panic mode because there isn't money coming in, and there wasn't, like, the government grants that everybody was talking was coming down the pipeline and whatever, it got really fucking scary. And I had some reserve because I was. I'm terrified of debt. So I financed all these things myself. I didn't have rich parents. I didn't have anything like that. That was. I was able to, you know, depend on for the building of the shop. And so when I was ready for a third one, I made sure I had all the money saved up to do that. And had I not done that, I would have lost the businesses for sure, because that's what got us through the pandemic everyone talks about, like, oh, but you got government grants. You got government grants. It wasn't government grants. It was government loans that they basically filtered money through the small businesses to pay landlords. So landlords were the only ones that won in this whole thing. And so when we were forced to be closed for so long and my approach with COVID was really difficult, because as I approached everything, my number one priority was to respect people. So if you were ultra cautious and ultra paranoid about COVID and masking up everywhere and whatever, I was totally cool with that. And I still am. I still. I'm not currently cutting with a mask on, but if somebody comes in and they're wearing a mask, I always say, like, do you want me to put this on? Because I respect you and I want you to feel respected in this space. And so I think, like, my approach from that was like, okay, everything is pointing at. There's no reason for us to not be able to operate our businesses in a safe manner. Like, we know how to do this. We're as clean as a doctor's office. Like, we know what we're doing. Why aren't we open? And so that started taking its toll on my mental health. And I started to, like, really go dark. And I was, like, going into my office and, like, spending half the day just sitting there. I wasn't even wanting to paint because I was so discouraged. And so I kind of hit, like, another bottom where I was like, I'm never coming out of this. I'm never going to financially recover. I'm losing employees left, right, and center to other shops or other businesses or other career paths. And most of them, you don't own your employees. There's no ownership. There's no poaching. There's none of that shit. But it's like when you've invested time and energy into people, you kind of feel a kinship with them that isn't. It's never an ownership. It's just like, well, I've spent this time with you. I'm excited that you can build a business and jump into that. I knew you weren't going to be here forever, or, I'm honored to have a friend who came from nursing when a pandemic hit. There's nothing more noble than reinstating your nursing license in a pandemic to fucking help people, that was incredible. And so I looked at those things, and it hurt to lose people and to lose the. The dynamic. And I kind of felt like when we did come back from lockdown, it was all at once. Because, you know, they might not have all have quit the same day, but when it was like, three guys of visas expired and they had to move back to their respective countries, that was over three months or four months. So coming back and being like, oh, shit, we're three down. You know, she went to nursing. He started a company. Like, coming back and being. And looking around the room and being like, fuck, there's half the people here. Like, this is scary, you know? And the amount of times that, like when. When the second lockdown hit or 2.3 or whatever the hell it was, and I had moved out of the city, I, you know, was helping a buddy pour concrete in his backyard, and I was like, I'm just going to close the shops and do construction. And Dan Smith again, was like, dude, what the fuck are you talking about? You're just going to hate your boss in two years and open and start a construction company. He's like, do what you've built. Like, work on what you've built. You've put all this time and energy into this. Yes, it sucks right now because I was watching everybody in fucking BC was open. Like, we. This is crazy. Like, why are my friends who do the same job as me thriving and we're being held back? And so I think, like, where I went from, like, really high and, like, feeling really good about where things were, my relationship was getting sorted out. My, you know, my mental health was kind of getting back on track. As I had this outlet, I felt great about it, and I was able to spend time with the people in my shop that I was renting them a space in the basement. So I kind of felt connected still. And then when they left and then when people changed, it was like, shit, I'm pretty alone, you know? And the friendships that I thought I had built within that space might have been relationships of convenience or might have been things that I didn't have as good a grasp, like an understanding of what they really were as I thought I did, because I was probably blinded by being busy, you know what I mean? So, yeah, it took a lot, and I'm still working through a lot of it, man, because my oldest employee, my longest running employee at Dundas right now, has only been there a year. And although I feel like I've known him a long time. He's an amazing dude. It's hard, like, going from having an eight year relationship with a guy across the station to cultivating these new relationships, which I enjoy doing. Everybody in the shop is there for a reason. I value them all. But I think when I realized that there was some toxic energy in the room that was poisoning the well a little bit, once that left, it was easier to build that back up. [00:49:27] Speaker C: Yeah. I've heard a lot of similar stories from people who ran businesses that. That couldn't be done online. Is, you know, it's weird because, like, you and I are just, like, you know, we're just, like, dudes out in the world, right? Business owners. And I could debate all day about whether. Whether or not should have been lockdowns to what degree. Like, all of that stuff. [00:49:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:49] Speaker C: And I have, like, some real strong thinking about it. [00:49:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:52] Speaker C: But. But more so, the thing that I've been hearing from, to avoid that, because I think you and I are on the same page, but to avoid that, the thing I've been hearing about from business owners who had in person businesses, that's like, what you had to do is be in person. Was that like. Yeah, it sucked. I assumed a ton of debt, both government debt, from. I like that you identified, like, these aren't grants. These are loans. These are government loans. [00:50:15] Speaker A: And they were. They were literally just filtering the loan through me into the landlord. Like, that was it. [00:50:19] Speaker C: And we're still paying off our government loans. [00:50:21] Speaker A: Totally, as well. [00:50:22] Speaker C: But while there was all these things, it's the. Did my business survive? Yes, but the analogy I'd give is, like, is it running a marathon and finishing the race and walking away, or is it running the marathon and collapsing at the finish line? Yeah, a lot of businesses completed the marathon, but will they be able to not collapse at the finish line? But the flip side thing that I'm hearing, which has more of a positive side, is, like, actually, it was kind of a refreshing reset because some things had set up in our culture that I didn't love. A lot of people ended leaving. So I still have the bones of the business, but now I can kind of. I can decide what the culture is going to be, rather than it just being this legacy thing that I had to manage. [00:51:03] Speaker A: Right, right. It's funny, too. Like, like you said, collapsing at the finish line. Like, I'm watching businesses now crumble. [00:51:09] Speaker C: Yes. [00:51:09] Speaker A: And the hardest part about that is that I think we all kind of took for granted the messaging, because understanding when people, when they told us for three years, stay home, stay home, stay home. And even though there was the louder voice of like, fuck, these lockdowns, tyranny, whatever. All that bullshit aside, I think a lot of people, when it got to day 400, were like, fuck, you know, I gotta stay home. And I'm hearing people like, you know, oh, my boss is making me go back into the office. And although I don't agree that five days of work a week in the office is a healthy environment, because we've now figured out that we can balance out at home the economy and other businesses and community depends on this shit. Depends on people. I built my business with a projection of business that was coming through because people were going to work. And if your house has now become your office, your gym, your bar, your restaurant, your, you know, everything is there. You're getting your haircut less frequent, and our business is suffering as a result. You're not getting coffee. You know, even me thinking about it the other day, I was like, I do therapy over Zoom. If I was going to my therapist, I'd probably grab a coffee at a local coffee shop on the way there and one on the way back. Now it's like, that's dollar 14 that a local business is missing. And where I don't think that, again, it shouldn't be that you go five days a week or you're home five days a week. What about the balance of, okay, maybe I go into the office three days a week and instead of buying ten shitty H and M suits because I have to dress up to work, I buy three really nice ones from Sydney's or, like, a local. Sydney's is the best tailor in Toronto. And I care more about my stuff and I put the money back into the community. And not everybody can, can think about. About that or like that because my two week haircut guys are now two month haircut guys because they're less frequent or maybe they've changed it up because, and I'm not faulting anybody for that. It's just one of those things that, like, we've, we've conditioned everybody now to be like, oh, we're, you know, stay the fuck home. And forgetting, like, how does a dry cleaner survive a pandemic? Like, how, like, you know, looking at it from our perspective of, like, we were never, like, we're fucking rich. This is great. But we had a really good projected business plan that was ready to continue to expand. And I'm, and maybe I'll get back to that. But where it put us right now is in this really volatile situation where, like, we're trying to get people to come out, and, like, I'm noticing our slower shop used to be Queen street. There's probably 100,000 people across the street, and condos. Dundas was a destination, but everybody was hitting it on the way home, so we were always busy. Now we're, like, starting from scratch with new barbers, with new, you know, the way society moves, it's totally different. And we're having to, like, think outside the box of, like, how we've built it, because we had such a great reputation for almost ten years that, like, building was never something we had to think about. Business was just coming to us because it was, you know, people were hearing about it. It was like, in your general dealings, and you're walking around Toronto for the day and you see this and you're like, oh, this is a cool space. I'll check it out. This is now where I get my hair cut. And then you build a relationship with somebody. So it's a weird thing, for sure. [00:54:20] Speaker C: And you brought up something I haven't even thought of at all. So, like, since we've talked about Dan a lot on this, like, if so, from my perspective, as you're saying it, I was like, oh, it lit up a bunch of thinking. Like, let's say a tattoo shop. Nobody's gonna stop getting tattooed because it's a specialty thing. Right? So during the pandemic, of course, they had all the challenges in that, but it's like, it's a specialty thing. [00:54:39] Speaker A: Totally. [00:54:40] Speaker C: So people who are into tattooing are always gonna get tattooed. Always. And Dan, I'm sorry if I'm simplifying that. Cause I'm sure there's all sorts of things he can say about that for sure. [00:54:49] Speaker A: Different kinds of shops, too. Right? [00:54:51] Speaker C: But let's go to haircuts. I didn't even think about that. About if people go into work less, that just means all of the economy that's built on, let's say, lunch traffic, like the dinosaur downtown. That's like, oh, like, yeah, we've got all this business. We can assume that people come into work five days a week. Now people are coming to work three days a week. You're taking out two fifths of how much money they make in a week. [00:55:16] Speaker A: Totally. We were talking about a creative agency that closed on the block of our coffee shop. 21 people in the office, seven of them come regularly. Office closes, that's a few hundred dollars a day that is being taken away from the business, that was like, that's the difference between make or break. That's where, like, that was keeping us in the black. Like, that was like, okay, we're able to pay rent this month. You know, that's one office. So think about, like, you know, everybody just moving. Like, I'm sure you've seen it, like, in your. You've been to Toronto a lot, like, seeing people just are not out at, like they used to be in nicer days. And obviously we're in like a January lull right now, whatever that looks like. I think we've always been prepared for this time of year to be a little slower, but I think I'm noticing it more now because it's like, we can't. It's that whole super trooper thing. Like, pull over, pull over. I can't pull over anymore. We're literally there. One of my shops is closed Sunday, Monday. We prided ourselves on the fact that we were a seven day barbershop. We're shaving hours off instead of ten hour days. We're going backwards. Going backwards is what we have to do to save the business. Awesome. I'm not worried about losing the business. It's this mental roadblock of, I did all this work. We did all this work to get here, and now we're going back to go forward, I guess. [00:56:36] Speaker C: But it's a fascinating thing. I've literally never thought about this before. The economy that builds up around another economy. So you've got downtown or a business corps or whatever, all of the businesses that are there, if you take out people work from home two days a week. So they're literally losing two days of business, which is like, I'm sure there are people listening to this who are going to be like, well, duh, you should have thought of that. It's just not in my head. If you want to talk about a government program, what a government program would be is how do we subsidize these businesses that. I do believe that moving to more of a flex model cadence is all distance. We've always been online, which is why with the pandemic, we were in a very fortunate position because we were just built that way. Believe a lot of jobs could have that flex work some days from home a week. But if we're going to make that shift as society, like you'd said earlier, society's doing things differently now as a result of these two years. That's where government should step in and that's where government should say, great, if businesses are going to do this, that's fantastic. What we can do is let's do some incentives, some tax incentives for businesses that are feeling the heat from that. [00:57:45] Speaker A: Or proper grants because you giving loans and grants and stuff to companies that definitely don't need them. Like, you know, Air Canada. Like, I don't want to get into specifics because it just makes me mad. But, like, I, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I've followed your business for a long time and watching the way, even though you were remote, you still made efforts to encourage your employees to be out in the community. Like those running initiatives and things that you did that were, that were, you know, you have employees here. Like Tammy. Tammy, who works here, is able to still be an amazing mom and go to local restaurants and do the things locally because she has a job that is structured as such, that encourages her to do all those things. And I think that's responsibility of the employer as well. So it's like, if your people are working from home, I know other employees that are like employers that are like, okay, now everybody shuts off their computer and I want everybody to send me a selfie from a walk. I want to know that you're walking around your neighborhood and, like, you're going. You're going to get fresh air. Because at one point in the pandemic, that was all we were allowed to do. You know what I mean? So. [00:58:57] Speaker C: Yeah, well, and to speak to that point, like government grants, I think for like, businesses that are affected by that. But also, like, I think businesses that have existed within communities where an economy grew up based on that economy have. It's like, it's like, listen, if my neighbor was afflicted with something, and I've lived, they've lived beside me for 20 years, and they had, I don't know, like, let's say they had something happen with their leg, I would take it upon myself to help them out because they're your neighbor. [00:59:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:59:24] Speaker C: So something I think would be pretty reasonable is like, businesses that have, let's say, like in a downtown core basically having like a pool that they all throw into to be distributed across the businesses. Now, I know from a capitalistic perspective, that's like people like, why would we do that? You live and die by the economy. I'm not saying be doing that ten years from now, but maybe for the short term until things shift. [00:59:45] Speaker A: Because it's been a gradual shift, man. Like, people forget that, you know, it literally was day to day. It was like, today you're open, tomorrow you can't be totally. And then vice versa. So when we came back, when we came back the first time, we had a new booking system, and when we. It was all online, and when we hit, we, like, opened. I remember sitting there, like, the anticipation. We've been closed for x months. Whatever. We were all excited. I hit open and we crashed their entire system because we built it up to be like, hey, guys, this day, this time, jump online, we had guys on, like, two laptops, a phone and a tablet. And they're like, we had 8200 people at once on our website. Crashed. All of Squire Squire came to us and we're like, we're sorry. We had double bookings as a result. Like, we've never seen traffic like this because the anticipation was there, just as when we were like, hey, you're going to close again. We're shutting this off. Why is there no mesh into that? That's what I did. I just never understood the, like, hard stop on either way, because I don't operate my business on a fucking hard stop. I have to. You know, you might need more than two weeks vacation, and I'm comfortable giving you that. I love that. Can you still get, like, how does that work? You know, I think that people are too black and white in our thinking because no one ever anticipated being shut. I never thought that my business would depend on people going to work because I never thought people would stop going to work. [01:01:11] Speaker C: Totally. [01:01:11] Speaker A: You know what I mean? [01:01:12] Speaker C: Well, that's why. I know we're just spitballing here, dude. If it was, listen, there's an economy based on an economy. You got a downtown core of businesses, and then you've got all these businesses that are there to serve the people that go there. Why is it impractical to say for, like, let's say for the next three to five years, there is a. From a profit base, you're going to give a certain amount from your profit base into this pool. And this pool is going to be distributed across all the people who apply for it. [01:01:39] Speaker A: Right? [01:01:40] Speaker C: To me, that makes sense. It's like, hey, society will adjust what it needs at the time. But even if you're saying we're living in a capitalistic society, it's like, well, you can be operating a capitalistic society that doesn't have to be heartless. [01:01:53] Speaker A: Totally. [01:01:53] Speaker C: And again, I know this is just two dudes kicking around ideas, but I hadn't really thought of that angle of like, oh, people not going to work means that you're going to have less traffic. It's a crazy thing. So getting out of fantasy thinking, but more into practical thinking, you have this really cool organic growth going on and it's just shops really architected off of how you would like things to be. There was no huge, big plan. It just like what felt right at. [01:02:22] Speaker A: The time built a space that I wanted to hang out in. [01:02:24] Speaker C: Totally. [01:02:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:02:26] Speaker C: Pandemic hits. A lot of things shifted. Where are you at today in terms of being able to get back to that kind of, like, nice organic growth? [01:02:35] Speaker A: In some ways, I'm already there. Like, in some ways, like, I walk into the shop and the familiarity alone kind of gets me to the next day. But I think in the actual, like, as far as, like, actual growth is concerned, I think the focus is less on how can we be bigger and make more money. And, you know, like, I think it's more like, how can we cultivate a better, a better culture within. I know that that term gets thrown around very loosely, but how can we make this place better in order to be able to grow in a healthier way and to be ready for, like, shit. There might be another pandemic tomorrow. You know what I mean? Let's obviously hope not, but I think so. Working with, I've got a general manager in my shops named Tony, and Tony's my saving grace. I've known him for a very long time. I've always really respected him. I've always admired how he's very driven. He's very focused. And I think that his focus on, you know, helping grow the business for everyone is like, at the forefront of how he conducts himself as a general manager. So in us, like, trying to find ways to better make the shops work, I think that's kind of our focus right now. It might not like we just opened another major treat. Probably not the smartest thing in the, like, what is still considered the middle of the pandemic. I guess we're still not endemic or whatever that means, but that business aside, like, that will be. That's always been like the fun thing, but where town barber is the focus and like, the bread and butter. I think creating a better space in what we've already built is kind of the focus right now. And if growth happens as a result of that, amazing. If we have to scale it back again, we'll figure it out. But I think working with Tony and, like, brainstorming ideas, and every day he's like, what do you think about this? And 99% of his ideas are amazing. They might not all work for what we're doing, but I like that we can tell each other that back and forth. I can say, hey, I think we should do this. And he's like, no, that's fucking stupid. And I'm totally cool with that because nobody takes offense to anything. We work very well together. I think that when we get back to a time when we can start thinking about growing, whether that be more locations, whether that be working with the space better, whether that be whatever, we'll know and we'll be ready for it. I'm kind of feeling stagnant in my creativity, and I've been talking with some people about some other avenues of, like, when time frees up a little more and I'm able to not focus so much on town barber as what it is as a business and incorporate ideas that will ultimately help that, but also help that creative outlet for me. I think that's what I'm excited about as well. [01:05:36] Speaker C: All right, man, let's talk a little bit about you. Coming up. How did you get here? Now, I'm not asking for some huge dive, but one of the things that I know is important to your story is you're one of the most authentic people I know, and you're just truly who you are. Appreciate that, and that's helped you in a lot of ways about your journey. But it's also like, there's been some bumps in the. Whatever space you want to start with, essentially, how did you get to where you are today? Where does the story start? [01:06:04] Speaker A: I mean, I think in high school, when I was finding myself, 7th and 8th grade, finding skateboarding, that kind of was ultimately my gateway to culture and trouble probably. I think punk rock, everything kind of came in from there. And I had a. A cousin who introduced me to punk rock, and I think that that was like, game over. I was like, this is. This is it. And as we all got that feeling, it was very different then than it is now. There was no Internet. There was no, like, you know, you really had to dig and find these things and see a guy walking down the street and literally, like, accost him. And, you know, I've met some of the best people in my life as a result of that, and I'll continue to credit it for that. And I think, like, slowly, as I found my way through that, I did, like, co op with a music promoter in Kitchener, where I grew up. That parlayed into somehow meeting a band that would take the chance and take me on tour. That band was Goldfinger. I was like a kid, and they fucking brought me on tour and it was like, my job was, like, stage manager, whatever it was. I was just, like, the punchy kid who was like, I was vegan and straight edge, so they wanted me in their space, and it was great, you know, you meet other bands as a result. And I ended up in California and working for other bands that would slowly, like, kind of ping pong me around to, like, realize that I was. I was trying to be Peter Pan. And, like, living on the road for, you know, the better part of ten years was, like, I had jobs in between, but nothing that ever satisfied me the way touring did, probably because of the social thing, probably because it was so nomadic, and I was able to kind of, like, be a fucking viking and, like. Like, leave my problems behind me, be in the next city grow. And then. And then when I realized that, like, it was pretty stagnant, I was turning into Peter Pan. It was the never Neverland thing of, like, nothing is changing in this world for me. I need to grow beyond that. So I started looking at every job that I could. Can I be a garbage man? Can I be a straight edge bartender? Like, I was literally thinking about everything, just trying to be like, what do I want to do? And I think in some ways, I'm still in that realm where I'm like, I want more. For me, I want to feel creative. I want to feel like I have an outlet. And barbering. I kind of stumbled into barbering. I helped this guy open a shop, and then I slowly learned, and then I was like, well, this feels like tour, but I'm sleeping in my own bed, and I'm with my dog and my girlfriend and my wife or whatever. Now, like, I think that as I realized that tor, that feeling was in me, and I was able to kind of, like, grow into that. And, you know, I had other businesses. I had a little pin company with my buddy Andrew that afforded us, like, paid our rent for a few years, and, like, just things that we were just, like, bouncing ideas off of each other and, like, what else can we do that's gonna make some money? And you always have that, like, I mean, you know, everybody in that, in the. In the. In the scene that has, like, that. That hustler's mentality of, like, I need to. And it wasn't to be rich. I didn't think that crucial pins was gonna make me rich. It was just, like, something that I was, like, having fun sitting there and cranking out pins with my friends overnight and, like, between tours or whatever, you know? So I think when I found barbering, it was like, okay, well, I can be in a space. There's some creative, like, hands on element to it. It's. It's a social thing. It's a. It's like a very much like a positive space, a friendly space. There was no from where I wanted to see it from. There was no attitude. There was no bullshit. It was just like, this is it. This is fun, this is cool. And it kind of brought me there and coffee. That conversation with major treat was literally just like Martin and I. I've known him. He sings in that band career suicide, and, you know, dug his band, seen him around forever. Started cutting his hair. I want to open a coffee shop. Me too. I got this branding. Me too. I like this one, you know? And it just turned into this thing that we were both, like, I wouldn't have called it disposable income. It was like, let's put some money into this thing and see if we can make it do something and just, like, bring a passion and an idea to life. And, like, again, anybody can start a business. Anybody can. You know, if you have somebody else's money, it's even easier. But anybody can, like, save up, start a business, do it, but holding onto it for five or ten years, and, like, growth is the hardest part, and I think people kind of forget that. So I think that, like, when I set out to, like, do it, I didn't think I'd own a barber shop for ten years. I didn't know if I'd own a barbershop for a year. When I started barbering, I didn't know if I would ever own a barbershop. It was like I was trying to help this guy do this thing. And my purpose has always felt like, in this world, my purpose is just to help people. And so if I was able to do that, you know, shit, now I can employ a bunch of people, or I can make people feel better about their appearance, you know, once every two weeks or whatever. Like, it's. That kind of feels good. And I think that was, like, how I found it was just, like, stumbling from tour to that. I've never really had a real job, you know, like, I have no education. I have no, like, formal training in anything, you know, even barbering. It was like there was. At the time that I was. That I was learning there was no barber school. They had taken it out of curriculum in Ontario. So it was a weird thing to just kind of, like, stumble into, you know. [01:11:36] Speaker C: Yeah. So another thing. And the difference between, like, just hanging out and then having a conversation. We know we're recording. It's like we're having, like, a real conversation. [01:11:48] Speaker A: Right. [01:11:48] Speaker C: But I know a lot of the backstory. [01:11:49] Speaker A: Right. [01:11:50] Speaker C: Of how you got here. [01:11:51] Speaker A: Right. [01:11:52] Speaker C: And one of the things that I know that plays big for you is the idea of loyalty and being a good friend and showing up for people. [01:12:01] Speaker A: Yep. [01:12:02] Speaker C: But when you become a boss, it's different because, of course, there can be those things. But a lot of it is, as you said earlier, like a relationship of convenience or a transactional relationship. And it doesn't mean you don't have, like, a good business or good culture or any of those things. But as a leader, sometimes what you invest in people, or maybe even as an employee, what you invest in a workplace isn't reciprocated because it's just like people say, well, it's just business. It's not. It's not personal. [01:12:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:12:29] Speaker C: No, I fundamentally disagree with that. I actually feel like it is business and it is personal. And, I mean, I treat my business very, very personally, but I try not to take things personally. [01:12:42] Speaker A: It's hard. [01:12:43] Speaker C: So I was going to ask for someone who I know is, like, loyalty is such an important thing for you, being a good friend, showing up for people when you're in a workplace where I know it's personal because it's this thing you've built. How do you. I know it's difficult for you, and so I don't want to, like, set you up the right way. [01:12:57] Speaker A: No, no, no. [01:12:58] Speaker C: I know it's tough for you to not take things personally. How do you work on that? [01:13:03] Speaker A: I think it's also. It's kind of like managing expectations. So it's like, I had. I known that a relationship with somebody that I brought very close. And when I say close, I mean, like, coming to my house for Christmas or, like, going on vacation together or having dinner every other, every couple nights or whatever, spending a lot of time and energy with that person, you know, giving and taking. Had I known that a lot of those relationships were just business and they would fizzle out because of that, I probably would have operated differently. I probably would have acted differently. I probably would have got less emotionally invested. And I think that we. Coming from where we do in, like, counterculture, for lack of a better word, like, I think, and you and I have talked about this before, like, we have this expectation of underlying values that come through in skateboarding, punk rock, rap music, graffiti, gang culture, tattoo culture, whatever it is, there's this unspoken code of loyalty and honor and respect and friendship. And I think that loyalty is a really easy, it's really easy for somebody to get fucking tattooed, but it's really hard for them to live it in a lot of ways. And so it's like, you can throw something like that on a t shirt because it looks cool, but then it's fucking cosplay, because a lot of these kids that, like, you see, and I don't want to make it a generational thing because I don't want to shit on anybody younger because I think there's this, like, kind of weird. I'm seeing, like, young, young kids now who get it. It's like this middle area where it was like, I could go to urban Outfitters and buy the fucking costume and tattoo my face and, you know, whatever. And I was fooled by it. I brought people in thinking like, ah, that guy's gonna get it. That guy's gonna, you know, he's gonna be on the level. Loyalty is gonna be there. There's gonna be an understanding. There's gonna be, you know, it will be give and take. There will be a business relationship, but it will also be very personal. And I'll have him stay over at my house or I'll help him move or do the things that friends do. And it almost, it stings a little more when you feel like, you know, you, you let your judgment of that person get the best of you. And I think that that's been a hard part to navigate in because I do take it very personally. You know what I mean? And so I, you know, I've had people tell me that they, that they, I had somebody recently who left. They said that they like Chris the friend, but they hate Chris the boss. And I realized that everything they were talking about was Chris the boss. They never knew Chris the friend. And I think that that's a hard thing to, for people to understand, because just because I'm creating an environment that you want to work in, that's not necessarily out of friendship. That's, for me, learning from past mistakes or past employers that I might have been a shitty employee to, you know what I mean? And so I'm adding perks and bringing these things in to a space that is from a place of, like, wanting to create a good environment to get me on a friend level and to, like, have that loyalty is a very rare thing. And I'm. And I think if anything, business has kind of made that more difficult for me to do, like to bring people in, because now I'm, I'm almost like expecting someone to leave or to, you know, think that the relationship is something that it's not. You know what I mean? Like, think that it's, it is just business. When I thought it was friendship or. [01:16:41] Speaker C: Vice versa, you know, can I share something about, please? [01:16:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:16:44] Speaker C: So I've had most people who work in my business are people who I know through, like, playing in punk or, you know, like friends. Like friends or friends of friends. [01:16:53] Speaker A: Yep. [01:16:54] Speaker C: And now we have, we're in a kind of a cool place where we have, like, former clients who are, like, joining the company and, like, people who, like, retired and said, hey, you know, I want to come and do a few years with you before I go into full retirement. And now we're starting to get people who I've never met before. We're literally like, true interviewing. I've been real fortunate that we've built up a crew within the business that are really mostly people that I've known for some amount of years, and it's worked well. But I have two examples that stand out for me. One is I have my three closest friends. They all live at a distance. So one of them is my friend Dave Larson, who was a guy who helped me start this podcast. My best friend, love him, came in, worked for the company, did it just first as a consultant, but then came in and worked, worked for us. And we hit a crossroads of, like, pay, you know, like, what do we need, right? Like, how much time of yours do we need and what are we willing to pay for it, right? And then how much of his time is he willing to give us and what does he want to get paid? And we could not bridge the gap. [01:17:55] Speaker A: It's a hard conversation, man. [01:17:57] Speaker C: It's a hard conversation. And I'll tell you, like, we were younger as a business, so, like, we weren't as graceful of how we would do it, you know, I'll say, like, that's true friendship because he's still my best friend. [01:18:07] Speaker A: Love that. [01:18:07] Speaker C: And we had some tough conversations, but we had tough conversations of two people who wanted to be able to make it work, but we're also like, well, this is what I can do. And he's like, well, that's as low as I can go. And I got to say that, to me, is one of the greatest examples of when people say, would you hire your friends? It's like, yeah, I totally hire my friends, but hire your friends who are really your friends. This guy is like, really my friend? I've got another example. Leave names out of it. Someone who came into the company and just wasn't doing a great job. Not a bad person at all, but wasn't doing a great job and couldn't handle feedback about it, would listen to the feedback, but couldn't handle it. And then we ended up having to part ways after a while. And it was one of those things where I kind of hoped, like, hey, I hope it's going to be cool, but it was just never cool again. Essentially, you never speak again. [01:19:00] Speaker A: Totally. [01:19:01] Speaker C: And it's like, for me, it's like I look at those two different examples of, like, two people who I'm both. One of them is, like, my best friend. One of them is someone I've been close with for many years. It doesn't mean they're a bad person. I don't think that they suck or whatever, but I just remember thinking, it's like, you know, it's not just, am I willing to hire my friend or even the right friend. It's like, hey, if I'm hiring you, are you willing to show up as your highest self, your best version of yourself, totally being the boss or the company owner? You're not always gonna do the right thing. But if it doesn't work out, it's not always our fault either. [01:19:36] Speaker A: No. And it's easy to blame, though. It's easy to throw that blame, for sure. [01:19:40] Speaker C: Super easy to blame. I think one of the foundational aspects of loyalty is if you're gonna be loyal with someone, you have to know what shit is actually yours and what you're actually accountable for, rather than just trying to push everything on the other side of the street. And I learned that lesson through working with these two different people and hiring a few different people who have friends and, like, knowing, like, hey, you know what? I actually am quite a good boss. I am quite a good business leader. And the places where I'm not good, tell me about it, I'll work on it. And I have totally. At the same time, it's like I'm only going to hire people who are real friends and who can take the feedback and who can be in the mix and who can set a boundary and say, that's as far as I can go. And if I can't meet that boundary, we can shake hands, still be friends, go the other way. That's the way I think when I think of loyalty, setting expectations, but also, like, how do I manage? Not taking it personal is like, I can have friends in a business as long as we're, like, real deal friends and we're all accountable. [01:20:39] Speaker A: That's interesting to hear, because I think that a lot of people, like, we've all heard it. Don't work with your friends. Don't work with your family. I'm gonna call it made the mistake of working with my brother. And I say that because I love my brother. He's like, he's three years younger than me, but everybody thinks he's ten years older. Cause he's had his shit together for so long. He's like, my brother's a performer. He's a magician, a motivational speaker. Amazing dude. Like Guinness records and fucking. He's an incredible person. And he. When I was trying to figure out what the fuck I wanted to do, he was like, why don't you manage me? And I want you to manage me using your experience in the music industry. Manage me as if I'm a musician. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna make this plan. I'm gonna. We're gonna break your whole shit apart, and we're gonna. You're gonna go from doing high schools at, whatever, $2,000 a pop or whatever you get paid to. You're gonna be doing big corporate speaking. And I only want you. I want you like, Tony Robbins shit. Like, I want you doing, like, five speeches a year and billing them 100 grand. Like, I want you to thrive in that zone. Because it's cool that you do this, and it's great that you work with kids, and it's great that you motivate these people, but you're destined for greatness. You should be doing something on a bigger scale. So I made this plan, and it's a very long story and how the plan panned out, but he wasn't as open to it as he said he was. And therefore I found out that he was booking stuff without me, without my knowledge, and where I told him to take a break for a full year and reinvent himself and stuff. He liked to do a record cycle, basically, like, disappear, and then you can tour. And we had this whole plan, and we're great. I talked to him most days, but I think there was for a little while there when, whether he fired me or I quit, there was, like, an animosity that I couldn't have had with a regular employee or client or whatever, because it was so much more personal. It was family. And where we've all heard the, like, don't work with family, whatever. I ignored it because I thought we could do this. But I'm also the only one that can genuinely tell him to shut the fuck up. And like, hey, listen to me. Like, I could physically do it. I couldn't do that with another employee. You know, it's different with family. So I. Not that I ever hit my brother in a business relationship. No, but, like, you know, he was the one guy that I. I was comfortable. Like, we could beat up on each other and we could. I could. It was like, this honesty that there was no. We didn't have to have that, like, formality of, like, this is work. I could be like, dude, listen to me. You're fucking up. Like, stop. I know you're not going to take this personal, so try this approach. And it was, like, cool. And it just. It ended up, like, changing our relationship. And I don't think we've ever. I don't know if close is the word. Cause maybe we parted ways because our interests were just different. But, like, I think as a result, like, I love and respect him more than just about anybody on the planet. But I think that it took, like, realizing that I couldn't work with him to almost respect him more for his drive to do what he's doing. He's still doing, you know, things that I look at the way I'm like, why would you do it like that? But it works for him. So why the hell do I have an opinion? You know what I mean? And so I think that, like, only working because for a while, I only worked with barbers that I knew, or having, like, Tony Mike beside me. I know him on a personal level, and I genuinely care about his well being. And I would rush him to the hospital if he fucking needs it. I'm there because he's my dude. And I know you've had conversations on this podcast as well about, like, a fair living wage. And I think that I believe I would pay Tony 100 grand a year if I could afford it. But you have to find that balance, and it's a little. It's almost harder with your friends because you want to give them more. So from a business perspective, it's probably pretty stupid to work with your friends, but from a loyalty perspective, you're going to get more out of it. Like, you know, loyalty breeds loyalty, so you're going to get it. You would hope anyway. And you're going to get more for the two of you, for your relationship, for the business, for all that stuff. And so I think that, like, understanding that and really, like, putting that into perspective is a hard thing, for sure. [01:25:05] Speaker C: Yeah. All right, let's go into the last three questions. You know, the deal, man. [01:25:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:25:10] Speaker C: Three questions are going to get harder as we go along. [01:25:14] Speaker A: Okay, shoot. [01:25:15] Speaker C: Okay. We're going to start easy. [01:25:16] Speaker A: Okay. [01:25:17] Speaker C: Historically punk or hardcore. [01:25:19] Speaker A: Okay. [01:25:21] Speaker C: Three best records, not bands. Three best records from Toronto. [01:25:29] Speaker A: Can I say greater Toronto area? [01:25:31] Speaker C: Absolutely. [01:25:31] Speaker A: Absolutely. I have to say. Oh, blood. [01:25:36] Speaker C: Absolutely. [01:25:37] Speaker A: No warning. Old blood is, I think, the most. I think it's the hardest record ever out of Toronto. I'll say that. [01:25:45] Speaker C: I think it might be the hardest. It depends, like, what genre we're looking at, but it's certainly one of the hardest records out of Canada, for sure. [01:25:54] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna say fuck. I'm gonna say the swarm just. And we've had this conversation before and not. I know. Chris Cullah gets brought up on every single podcast you've done. I think the Colifan blanket, like the Chris Callahan catalog from cursed to left, four dead. I think it's all so important. So I can't pick a record. I have to say. Just Chris Callahan takes one of those slots. And this is in no order. This is like, three. There was a band that some friends played in that. Do you remember king size braces? No. They were like a Toronto Oi band. And they went on to do a band called Angels, Saints and Heroes. And I don't even know if they ever had a full, proper release. But whatever that release was, whatever recording they did, I wore the shit out of that for a long time. I really liked that. I'm gonna say that. I'm gonna say honorable mention to the crucible side catalog as well, because I know they've done the, like, oh, yeah. You know, but I think those are Toronto. That's what I'm going. I'm for sure leaving something out that sucks. But. [01:27:18] Speaker C: Well, yeah, I said only three, so of course you. [01:27:21] Speaker A: Yeah, okay. [01:27:22] Speaker C: Okay. That was good. [01:27:23] Speaker A: Stick with that. That's tough. [01:27:24] Speaker C: I mean, I. I knew no warning. [01:27:26] Speaker A: Had to be like, I'm a media dude. I love that. Yeah. [01:27:29] Speaker C: But also, like, beyond legendary record. [01:27:31] Speaker A: Yep. [01:27:31] Speaker C: I knew something from Chris was gonna be in there, and Chris is on. I talk about Chris a lot on the podcast because I just think he's, like, a. A. I personally like Chris. He's just, like, a really decent dude. He's managed to do something from a business perspective that I just like, yeah, that's the coolest, man. Like, good for you. Cause he could have really gone for it, and he decided to rather than go for it. I'm like, oh, no, I'm just gonna do it the way I wanna do it. And how many people are gonna do that. [01:28:01] Speaker A: He's the most stubborn guy I know, but love him for it. [01:28:03] Speaker C: Yeah. He's just, like, really respectable dude, so I knew you're gonna go there. The last one I hadn't heard of. [01:28:10] Speaker A: Yeah, I. You know Kyle Hollandrake, tattooer, Mike Beilak. Like, they're two tattooers from here as well. And they've, like. I think Kyle's making some music now. I don't know if Mike's doing anything right now, but, like, again, like, kind of formative years of, like, being in and around a lot of that stuff. And I found hardcore through kind of punk and oi and that kind of stuff. Like, my friends growing up were all punks and skinheads, so it was all like that world. So I think it's a little more like Warzone's. Like, the perfect amalgamation of everything. So I would say they're, like, top three of all time. So I think, like, anywhere. Anywhere where I could find those sounds, I think was good. And that one really resonated with me. [01:28:51] Speaker C: All right, this next one is tough. [01:28:53] Speaker A: Okay. [01:28:54] Speaker C: If you had one band that you've previously toured with before that could get you to go out and leave your family and your businesses behind for six weeks to go on tour, what one band would you jump out of tour? Retirement for? [01:29:12] Speaker A: Also loaded question. Because for interest of the band or interest of the friendship, two completely different categories. If Dan Smith asked me to go on tour and murder somebody every day for six weeks, I'd do it. I have this. Like, I've toured with most of Dan's bands in some form, and it's always just been, I'm not getting paid. I'm just like, this is just to hang with him. So anything he did, unless it was some kind of weird Morrissey shit, and then I wouldn't touch it. But anything that he wanted to do, I would do. I. I loved touring with h two o. I loved touring with Hazen street. Those were both, like, super fun and, like, you know, great people. But, yeah, anything Dan said, I would. That would. Of stuff that I've toured with. If one band, if it was, like, my favorite band going, hey, come out for six weeks, I would say, if rancid ever asked me to come out, it would be like bucket list shit. [01:30:23] Speaker C: Yeah. That's respectable. [01:30:25] Speaker A: Yeah, that would be it, for sure. [01:30:27] Speaker C: All right, last question. [01:30:29] Speaker A: God, those were both hard. [01:30:30] Speaker C: Okay, so you've recently had a change in your life. Big change. [01:30:35] Speaker A: Big change. [01:30:36] Speaker C: So you've had your first kid. [01:30:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:30:39] Speaker C: Now that you have a wife that you have a great relationship with who also has her own business and you have a son. [01:30:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:30:48] Speaker C: How has that changed the way that you view or has it changed the way that you view how you run your business and how you lead? [01:30:55] Speaker A: That's tough. I was of the mind my whole life that I never wanted children. And I had various reasons for that state of the world, the population. There was too many kids who don't get homes. I probably think that my main reason was that. Back to this mental health stuff like this. My own self worth was so low that I couldn't imagine seeing myself in someone else. And I think that that has been a really hard thing. Even my wife saying, like, oh, he looks just like you. I'm like, fuck, don't say that. It bums me out. And it's something that I need to work on, like, 100%. I'm, like, really struggling with that part of it. But it's like, like, I also kind of looked at everything as, like, I would see risk and I would run at it. Like, I love the idea of, like, hey, you can try this and it might hit, but you also might lose your shirt. And I was like, cool, let's fucking. You know, now I pump the brakes a little bit, and I'm a little more. I have more to lose, you know, because I'm like, okay, this. This dude depends on me. It's one thing having a dog depend on you to, like, come home every day and to feed them and so on, but, like, this guy's depending on me for probably the next 18 years plus, you know? So when I think of, like, what that means from the perspective of, like, taking risk in business and, like, you know, I think that was also, like, when you. When you asked me about growth in the business and, like, where I see it, it's like I need to work on what I have right now as opposed to getting ahead of myself because I used to get way ahead of myself. And so it's kind of giving me that perspective a little more, I think. And, like, I also want to just fucking spend more time at home. Like, I never. I love my home. I've, you know, I'm very fortunate. I have this beautiful home that I love going home to. I feel for the first time in my life when I'm at home, I'm relaxed and I'm, like, comfortable. But I was also loved being at work and I loved, like, the hustle and being out and going out for dinner and all that shit. Now I'm just like, okay, I need to schedule better so that I can make better use of time at work, so I can make better use of time at home, you know? Yeah. So I think that's. That's probably the change is, like, not running at risk, you know? [01:33:19] Speaker C: Awesome. All right, man, well, as we're closing off, anything you want to say, leave with our audience and anything you want to hype up? [01:33:26] Speaker A: I. No, I don't think so. I think I'm, you know, I'm. I'm excited to continue to grow in both businesses, and I'm kind of, like, trying really hard to completely stay away from social media these days. And, like, I don't know what that is. I think I'm just, like. I feel like it's, like, burning me out and making me really question a lot of stuff. So I'm, like, kind of staying off of that. So I. I mean, I'd say find the businesses on social media if you're at all curious, you know, in the Toronto area or whatever. But other than that, like, you know, excited to watch friends grow and win and, you know, do all that stuff, too, so. [01:34:04] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. Listen, man, this has been an awesome conversation. Thanks for the round. To everyone listening. We did our first one, and we had an audio issue that was our fault. So thanks for coming back for a second. [01:34:15] Speaker A: This was a better conversation, I think. I think I was a. In a little different place as far as stress was concerned that time. And I think this was a lot more. A lot more us, you know? [01:34:25] Speaker C: Totally, man. Awesome. All right, everyone, we'll see you in the outro. And Mike, drop the beat. So first, I just want to say, like, having a conversation with someone that I consider both a friend and a business owner that inspires me is such a. It's just a cool experience. So, Chris, thank you so much for being on the show, just being totally yourself and also for doing around, too. Thanks, man. That's our bad. I want to add to that, too, is, like, people being vulnerable. You know, running a business is tough. And even, like, huge businesses, you know, you might think, like, they've got all these safeties, but at the end of the day, like. Like, most businesses could cease to exist relatively quickly if they had a series of, like, tough situations pop off. So the idea, like, when you own a business and you're just, like, some dude or some person who just came up normally through, like, whatever channels, it's scary, it's anxiety inducing. Throwing a pandemic on top of that and then just life stuff, like, having any kind of, like, mental health concerns or health concerns or or anything like that, you find yourself in a situation where it's like you've got a lot to manage just being a person in the world who's trying to make it through. Chris, you're such a great example of someone who is just trying their best and is really willing to hold up a mirror and then to be really open and vulnerable about that. And I took so much out of our conversation. And for the audience listening, I hope you did, too. You know, nobody has it just right. But the more that we can open up, talk about things honestly, and learn from others, the better chance that we have from getting to a place where everybody can have a real shot of success. So with that, I'm going to close off. My name is Aram Arslanian, and this is one step beyond.