Ryan Gagne, Tattooer and Founder of Stronghold Tattoo

[00:00:00] Speaker A: They take days off work to come in. Sometimes they'll book a flight and travel in and pay for a hotel for a small tattoo. When they're paying for your time, they get your attention, period. [00:00:30] Speaker B: Hey, everyone. Welcome back. Today's guest is someone I've been real excited to talk to, someone that I have a lot of respect for, both for just as a business leader and also really, their creative output is unbelievable. So, Ryan, welcome to the show. [00:00:44] Speaker A: Thanks for having me, man. [00:00:45] Speaker B: All right, so for the uninitiated, for the people who wouldn't know, please tell us, who are you and what do you do? [00:00:52] Speaker A: My name is Ryan Gagne. I am a father, husband, and tattooer of 15 years. I've owned my own business for about five now. [00:01:00] Speaker B: Heck, yeah. Awesome. All right, there's a lot I want to unpack about this, but I want to start with something simple, like people who maybe, you know, people who get tattooed, people who don't get tattooed. Anyone who's not, like, an insider within the industry might be, like, leadership in tattoos. Like, how does that work? So how is. How is, like, what's the purpose or the real need for leadership within the tattoo industry? [00:01:27] Speaker A: Well, I think it's more of like a kind of a mentorship. It seems like without it, there's a lot of blind leading the blind. And in this field, where it is permanent, I mean, there's a lot of people messing some people up. Right. And they just don't have the guidance. They don't have the, I guess, information available to them. You know, it's a lot of young tattooers kind of flying blind and just trying to make it up as they go. And hopefully it works, and most of the time it doesn't. But I think a lot more people would be doing better tattoos if they had somebody there next to them answering those questions. And not only as far as the technical aspect, but as far as, like, being a tattooer talking to customers as well. [00:02:12] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and also with a lot of industries, there's also been, like, a big spotlight on how women and marginalized people within industry are treated. And so, like, not just in tattooing everywhere. And I would imagine as being someone who's a business owner, you've probably got something you want to add in on that as well, from a leadership perspective. [00:02:35] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, like, the shops that I have owned, I've always had women tattooers working with me, and I always find that they are. They're great to be around, especially as far as, like, a customer service perspective and a woman's perspective. I mean, it's very easy to be in a tattoo shop, and it's intimidating because it's all dominated by men, and there's that softness to it, you know, like, when you work with a woman and they can make certain customers feel a lot more at ease. It was great having my wife in my shop when we opened our first place, because even when there's a spot that may be a little uncomfortable for a woman where they have to move their bra or shirt because it's ribs, whatever the case may be, you know, my wife's right there sitting. You know, there's. She's making sure everything's safe. She's making sure everything's comfortable. Like, there's a lot in the tattoo world that is a lot more difficult than women than I think it should be right now. And showing them that you have their backs, I think, is extremely important. There's a lot of vulnerability in the tattoo shop on the customer side and our side, but, you know, if something goes awry or whatever the case, they made to feel uncomfortable, making sure that you show that you have their back and you're a voice for them as well, I think is extremely important. Too many tattooers are being awfully quiet right now with a lot of things going on, which I don't agree with. [00:04:04] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I'm real interested in your take, too, about, like, so I like what you said about kind of, like, it can be male dominated. I remember, um, many years ago when I was, like, getting tons of tattoos. I was really getting, like, almost every week I was in a shop getting tattooed, really feeling like it's a real, like, man cave type environment, and. Yeah, and part of that can be nice because you're just like, yeah, I'm here with the boys. Like, I'm hanging out, and other times, it's like, I don't know, like, this is pretty, like, lame because it's just a. You know, it's a bunch of dudes being dudes. [00:04:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:36] Speaker B: Within that, like, how do you go about tone setting? So, like, you know, like, a shop has a feel and kind of a culture around it. Like, how do you approach that as a professional? [00:04:46] Speaker A: For me, it's all about customer service, period. Tattooing is customer service in its purest form. I mean, you're giving people what they want, they're paying for what they want, and they're the ones who have to live with it, making sure that the environment is somewhere that they want to be. Men, women, anybody, really. The comfortability is extremely important to me. But, you know, you walk into some places, and, like I said, it's pretty intimidating sometimes. And it's a boys club, and there's guys, and they're, you know, talking about their escapades on the weekend and whatever case may be. Don't get me wrong, like, that's all in good fun, but there's some people who don't want to sit there and listen to that. You know, it's. It's not an appropriate place. Like, yeah, this is a great job, but this is still a job. You still have to provide a service and a product to somebody. And I think the experience is a massive part of that. And if they're sitting there uncomfortable because of how the men are speaking about certain groups of people, it's not good for anybody. [00:05:47] Speaker B: Totally, man. And again, for people, let's say, maybe from the corporate world who are listening, who aren't used to that. A lot of tattoo shops are open spaces where there's multiple seats and kind of in line of sight of each other. And I know I've been. I've been getting tattooed, and I've been a part of conversations where I'm like, you know what? That probably wasn't that cool for other people to hear. But on the flip side, I've definitely been in shops. I've been definitely getting tattooed and been like, damn, I do not want to be hearing this story that that person's telling. [00:06:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:14] Speaker B: And it's an odd space because it's almost like, I think it's very easy to fall into that thing of, like, I don't want to be the person that complains because I don't want to look uncool in this, like, kind of, like, outsider thing that's got, like, kind of a bit of a high cool factor, which then creates the gateway for all sorts of, like, terrible stuff to happen. Cause people are already like, I don't wanna look like. I don't wanna look like a lame person. So people start holding back what they think. [00:06:37] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And the thing about the open concept tattoo shops is, I mean, you can. Something I've tried to focus on through the years is the experience of my customer, and it's a very one on one thing. And while I can control what happens with them in an open space, you can't control what the tattooer next to you is gonna say. And, you know, it could totally. A lot of contention through my career has been through those aspects where it's like, I've done everything I can to give this person an amazing experience. But then this guy comes in and basically fucks it all up, and there's no way coming back from that because they're not going to remember the effort that I put in. They're going to remember that awful conversation they didn't want to hear, or you don't know what's happened in their past, their life, and whether people are being sensitive to it or not. And it's those cases that they're not, that it just ruins it for everybody. There's no coming back from stuff like that. [00:07:27] Speaker B: Well, so something that's always stood out for me, to me about you, but also that I know well from mutual friends that have talked about you professionally, is you take tattooing and, like, the. You take the art of tattooing seriously, the experience of tattooing seriously, and the business of tattooing seriously, like, you're very serious about your profession. I find that interesting, as there's been a lot of people I've met in the tattoo world who are kind of, like, little. Like, they're, like, quite adolescent about it. It's like a cash in hand business. They're buying all sorts of extravagant things. They're party animals, and not all of them, but I've met enough tattoo artists that are kind of like, they act like adolescents who are very talented, versus I've met very few who are just really serious business people. And you're one of those people. I'd put in that, like, you're quite serious about it. Have you always been. Well, have you always been like that, or is that something you grew into? [00:08:17] Speaker A: Um. It's always been like that. Um, you know, tattooing. I didn't seek out tattooing. It found me. And it kind of was one of those moments of realization where it was, you know, this shit's forever. Like, it's. I gotta take this serious. You know, I couldn't draw at the time, so it's like, okay, I gotta sit down and figure out how to draw. This isn't a joke. And I've always kind of looked at it that way, whether whatever shop I was in at the time, you know, there was one shop I was in where it was kind of a party shop, and. And I was the only one painting and working after hours and doing these things. It wasn't their priority, which is fine, but for me, nothing else mattered. It was get better and try not to be lumped into this category of new tattooers, so to speak. There was a lot of bad talk about new tattooers and not a lot of positive thinking with them. And that was basically my. My entire motivation was to take it serious because it seemed like newer tattooers weren't taken serious because they wanted to party. And it was, you know, it's this rock star lifestyle, just drawing people, go to the bar and hang out. But it's just. It's just not how it is. I take it extremely serious, whether it's every single person who comes into my shop and how it affects, you know, my income at home with my family and how I can support them. You know, life's not a party all the time. You know, there's little grace periods like that. It's all good and fine, but at the end of the day, like, it's still your job. And are you proud of the work you put in that day? When it comes down to it? And for 15 years, that's how I've looked at it, is I want to be able to put my head on the pillow and feel proud of what I did. [00:09:59] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. So you said that it found you. So tell us about your, like, entry story into. Into this becoming your career. [00:10:05] Speaker A: Yeah. So I had no interest in tattooing whatsoever. It wasn't even on my radar. I got my first tattoo when I was 18. You know, after a night apart, we all woke up, and it's like, ah, let's go to get tattooed. Called the first shop that would take Watkins. And there was no tattooing in my family. I was always interested in it, but not as a. As a job. And me and my wife, we've been together a really long time. We got together when we were kids, and she basically got into a shop doing counter help. And she had mentioned I wanted to do something along the lines of, you know, working in a tattoo shop. And. And she got me in. I did a few things here and there for a couple years, and then just one day, I got offered an apprenticeship. It was a quiet, slow day. We're sitting there, and the boss just looks at me, says, do you want to learn how to tattoo? And I kind of thought about it for a second. Sure, why not? What else am I going to do? Type thing? And that was it. It was kind of just feet right in. She wanted me to start tattooing customers right away, and it was gnarly at first, but took a long time to kind of figure it out. [00:11:10] Speaker B: Well, yeah, I was going to say from, like, from there, from that starting point, from that first day, how long did it take for you to feel like, okay, actually, I know what I'm doing. I'm doing this. [00:11:20] Speaker A: Well, I still don't feel like that. Yeah, no, it still feels like I'm pulling out of my ass every day. But, you know, I'm definitely more confident with it. Like, I mean, there's not a single tattoo I look at at the end of the day when I'm about to post it on the Internet and rip it apart and make myself feel bad about it. Like, I could have done this better. I could have done this better. But, you know, realizing, like, is the best I can do right now, it really helped me a lot, but it still doesn't feel like, you know, exactly what's going on. A little more confidence. But it's different for every single design, every single customer that comes in. You know, everything changes. Once you think you have it figured out, you get. You get thrown a curveball, and it's like, oh, shit, now what? [00:12:04] Speaker B: Yeah. So how long after that before you opened your own shop? [00:12:08] Speaker A: So when I started learning how to tattoo there, she made me a promise to not open my own business for ten years. And, I mean, once we left that shop, the shop didn't survive for very much longer after that, and she quit tattooing and everything. But I've always felt like that was something I had to keep. And so I waited ten years, and I pretty much opened the shop just, I think, three weeks shy of my tenure tattoo anniversary. [00:12:39] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. And that was on Vancouver island, right? [00:12:41] Speaker A: Yeah, that was on Vancouver island in a little town called Parksville. [00:12:45] Speaker B: Okay, and so you'd never been a boss up to that point in your entire life? [00:12:50] Speaker A: No, never. [00:12:52] Speaker B: So what was it like to suddenly, like, have your own thing and actually start having to bring on employees and learn how to be, like, a boss, an employer, and a business person? [00:13:01] Speaker A: Yeah. So a big decision for me for opening my own shop was not having any control over the situations. I've worked into quite a few, and there was always things that I really did not agree with when it came to how the business was run, how customers are treated. But it being their business, there was no say, there was no control. You know, it wasn't even encouraged to voice your opinion about how to make things better. Through the years, I had always kind of taken almost upon myself to take on more responsibility than what was asked of me, because I always. I always looked at it as, like, as a whole, as a group, as a family. Like, if we're all winning, that's great, you know? Like, if I can do one small thing to make everything else better, that's great. But a lot of shop owners didn't like that. So that was one aspect that when I opened my business that I was really striving for is, you know, yes, this is my shop, but is there something you think I could be doing differently, you know, to make this better for everybody who comes through the door? And I think some people who worked with me were very caught off by that because they hadn't really experienced that before. I wanted to make sure it was very clear that I'm not a babysitter. You're an adult. You know, tattooing is a great job where we can do it anywhere in the world. And if you want to go and travel, I encourage it. If you want to go guest spot, do conventions, go, you know, and. And there was all these aspects that I really wanted to be the shop owner that I never got to work for. When I was coming up, you. They made it very clear that you have one job, and it's. You're here to tattoo, and you're here to put money in my pocket. Well, there's a. To me, there's a lot more than that, you know, and I've been very lucky. I've had three people who have worked with me that I've. It's been perfect. It could have been a better fit. [00:14:50] Speaker B: Yeah. So is there anything that you learned about, like, the business side of it after starting a business where you can look back and be like, oh, I didn't like it when I wasn't running a business, but now that I am running a business, I actually understand why they were doing that. [00:15:08] Speaker A: No, that was a big thing for me, is I never understood why they were doing things the way they did them. It didn't make any sense to me. To me, there was no downfalls to treating people better or keeping certain conversations out of the tattoo shop. Yeah, there wasn't a ton. Once I opened my own place, it was fully full control. This is okay, and this is not. I'm not much of a gray area person. It's very black and white. So having that control, to be able to say yes or no to certain things, that was super important. But I'm more. More than anything that I learned from working with these other tattoo shops was what not to do, honestly. [00:15:54] Speaker B: Yeah. Can I give you an example about myself? [00:15:58] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. [00:16:00] Speaker B: So the last company I worked at before starting my own, I was like, and my whole career, I've always been like, oh, I can't believe they're doing this. They should do it like that, blah, blah, blah. And I always like, was a dude with, like, a lot of opinions, but very little, like, inside knowledge based on experience. And then when I started cadence, I was like, I'm going to start a different company than my last one. Like, you know, I fundamentally disagree with everything about how they did it, and I set up, like, a radically different business. And right off the gate, right off the bat, it was very successful. But throughout the years, I've been like, okay, now I understand why they had this policy or why they did this or why did they did that. And some of them are just, like, super minor things, like hiring practices, but some of them are, like, things that were, like, tentpole issues that I had with the company. I'm like, I. I actually get why they did this now. Now that I own a business. And it's been, like, humbling for me, in a sense, where I'm like, oh, anyone can have an opinion about what's right or wrong until everything rests on their shoulders and they have to build a business that feeds their family and that, like, other people depend on. So it was a real change for me. So it's interesting for me. I always ask this question of anyone who owns a business when they were already working within an industry and hadn't previously owned a business. So, on your end, though, there's nothing really that stood out. It's like, the stuff that I had issues with still makes sense for me to not do now. [00:17:17] Speaker A: Absolutely. You know, like, I would just go home upset because of certain things that happened, and it was like, the reason I was upset is this didn't need to happen. And, yeah, I mean, I think the whole boys club tattoo thing is played out. It's done. Get rid of it. I think there's a lot of the misogynistic views in tattooing. I think it's done played out. Get rid of it. I don't agree with it, and I don't think it belongs in a tattoo shop. And from my experience working in a lot of shops, that's just what it was. I want to stay as far away from that stuff as possible. So there's not a whole lot I could see from these businesses that I saw. Okay, well, I can see why they did it that way, because the things that I would get upset about don't need to be that way, if that. If that makes sense. [00:18:14] Speaker B: Oh, it makes perfect sense. So, you'd mentioned your family before. Do you mind if I asked a couple questions on that front? [00:18:19] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:18:20] Speaker B: Yeah. All right. So, I know you're. Now you're a family person. A wife and two twins, or twins, is that correct? [00:18:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Identical twin girls. Yeah. [00:18:28] Speaker B: Yeah. All right, so how has that, becoming a father and having a family, how has that changed the way that you tattoo, that you interact with business, how you lead, or has it at all? [00:18:38] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. It's changed everything for me. You know, when I, when I, from the first ten years of my tattoo career, it was all consuming. It's all that mattered. And thankfully, my wife is very understanding and supportive of that. But once my kids showed up, it was instant. Tattooing doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. In the grand scheme of my life, being with them and seeing them develop and encouraging them and helping them is all that matters now, while I still have to work and I still love what I do, and I'm still lucky to do what I do, I don't prioritize tattooing in the slightest anymore. I've made extreme changes to make sure that it won't take away from my time with my kids. And so when I'm with them, I'm extremely present. But tattooing, it was everything. It still is, but it's a very different lens. I'm looking at it now. It's all I ever wanted to do once I got into it was learn how to paint flash and learn about needles and ink and machines. There's always going to be time for that. But the time with my kids, it seems, you know, people always said before I had kids, oh, it goes by fast. I thought that was just some thing you say when you have kids and all of a sudden you're a parent, but it goes by fast, man, too fast. So I'm trying to, I'm trying to separate those two as much as possible so they don't take away from each other. [00:20:02] Speaker B: Yeah. And again, so for me, having a. A business that I own, people would be like, ah, you can make your own schedule. You've got so much time. It's like, no, like my, I gotta radically schedule everything. I have to bust my ass so that I have free time. It's actually much harder. So how do you make space for family when you have such, like a demanding professional life? [00:20:23] Speaker A: So for me, it was being too available for customers all the time. You know, they would email at midnight and, you know, I'd see the phone light up and I'd just answer them right away and stuff like that. But so what we've done recently is my wife has taken over my schedule in my emails. She has a lot of experience in retail management, and so she used to have like 60 to 80 employees under her. So doing my schedule is easy. You know, she does it while she's hanging out with the kids, you know, but, you know, just that small thing of her taking over my emails has made such a huge difference because, you know, I'm not sitting on my phone when I'm with my kids. I'm present with them, you know, and staying within our shop hours as well, you know, like, you know, people emailing it at midnight and sending a follow up email at 09:00 a.m. because they haven't got a response yet. That doesn't happen anymore, which is nice. She's a lot more firm. I think I'm a little bit of a people pleaser. So her taking over emails has been crucial in my time at home, being really focused. [00:21:29] Speaker B: Yeah. All right, let's go back to the, to the story, though. So you had your first shop on the island, what was the shop called? [00:21:36] Speaker A: Parksville tattoo. [00:21:37] Speaker B: Okay. But then you moved to Calgary and you actually worked at someone else's shop for a while. One of my best friends, someone I grew up with, Scott at eternal image. So what was it like making that shift where you've gone from being the boss and you can really set the kind of culture that you want into going and working in someone else's shop again? [00:21:57] Speaker A: Yeah. So the move was initiated by one of my, one of my kids has some ongoing medical stuff, so it was just time to come back home to Calgary. And because of what was going on, I knew it probably wasn't a good time to have my own shop again and just focus on family while still needing to work. So I had talked to Scott about possibly working there with them. And one thing, I'm extremely honest. So me and Scott sat down and I told him, like, look, you know, I'm going to have my own shop one day. I don't know how long I'm going to be around for. I'd love to work with you in the interim and see what happens, but I want to put this all out there so there's no questions, there's no confusion when the time comes, if the time comes. And Scott's amazing. I mean, hands down one of the best people I've ever worked for in a tattoo shop in my career. And he was very understanding, very supportive of it, and he made a space for me and, and allowed me to create my own schedule and which was very, you know, it was very hard for me going from a shop owner back to somewhat of a worker be but he made it. He made that process very easy, and he was very understanding of it. And honestly, working with Scott was a dream come true. You know, as soon as I started tattooing, he was always, you know, one of those guys that you looked up to and being able to stand there and watch him tattoo and see how he deals with customers, to see how he approaches certain aspects of tattooing it, man, I learned a lot in that year working there. [00:23:24] Speaker B: Yeah, Scott's an interesting cat because, like, again, it's. My experience within the tattoo world is fairly minimal outside of just getting tattooed and then, and then knowing some people. But it's like these kind of dichotomies of, like, serious artists slash shop owners, like, serious business people versus kind of, like, party animal maniacs, you know, like, kind of like little boys who, like, act out, like, act like wild people or, like, you know, adolescents, basically. And Scott, ever since we were young, was like, like an old man. He was like a, like, very serious, like, kind of like old man and has gone on to run a cool business. Do you think you could have worked for someone, like, gone to, could you have gone into being a worker, be in a different kind of environment, or did it have to be something like Scott? [00:24:12] Speaker A: It had to be something like Scott's. Yeah, it had to be. I mean, I've been doing it long enough where there was. There's certain things that once they start affecting me negatively, I can't let go. And when you try to talk about them to certain shop owners or business owners, they don't really care. They don't want to hear it, and they don't because they don't want to make any changes. Scott's not like that. You can talk to him openly and honestly, and if there's something he's. He's able to do for you to help you get. Be more comfortable, he'll do it. I think that's what separates him from a lot of other tattoo shop owners. With that being said, he also keeps family and business the same way as I do. So it was very easy to relate to Scott. You know, I didn't know him super well before working with him, so I wasn't sure how it was going to go. Honestly, I was just happy to be able to be in that shop, in that environment. But the more we hung out and the more we kind of talked during tattooing, we look at things very, very similar and with a very critical eye as well, which I think is important. [00:25:16] Speaker B: So with that saying, like, tell us about the new shop now or the shop that you've. You've recently started. [00:25:22] Speaker A: Yeah. So in the end of 2020, I'd say January 2021, me and my wife, we opened a new tattoo shop here in Calgary called Stronghold Tattoo. Yeah. A main thing is, is comfortability and customer service. That's it. I don't like to be around a whole lot of bullshit. This is my happy place away from home. Like, if I have to be away from home, this is where I want to be, and I don't need anything in here disrupting that. So I was in here about a year by myself, working, trying to find the right person to join me, and I tried out probably about five or six different people and finally have someone lined up. She's been here since April, and she's been amazing. [00:26:04] Speaker B: Hell, yeah. So what are the ingredients of having? And let's not just talk about tattooing, but, like, from your perspective, what are the ingredients of having, like, a business that can be that kind of happy place, home away from home, that if you have to work, you'd love to be there. [00:26:19] Speaker A: For me, it's the environment, you know, like, the walls are filled with things I love. You know, I've been collecting tattoo stuff for 15 years now and just being able to look at and see at these things and, you know, keep it interesting for the eye. So when a customer comes in, you know, they're excited to talk about it, and because I'm excited about it, I want to talk about it. You know, it's my home away from home, and I'm very particular about how things are arranged, and I want to be in here. I don't want anything impeding on that. And it was very difficult because there were some shops that as soon as you go into, they were. They felt uncomfortable. Maybe not for the customer, but even working there, you know, it kind of felt uncomfortable. Like, I always try to develop the shop as a place I want to be at if I'm not home. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know if that answers the. [00:27:11] Speaker B: Question, but it totally answers the question, but. So if you were to say, like, what are the elements of a strong tattoo shop, like, a tattoo shop where anyone would feel proud to work at it. [00:27:22] Speaker A: That'S so hard to say because so many shops are so different, and it's all based on the comfortable, uh, the comfortability of a customer. Right. There's some customers that want that really quiet where, you know, it's more of a spa than anything, you know? And there's some tattoo there. There's some customers that come in and they want to pick something off the wall. And, you know, some shops just don't have that anymore, so it's just totally based on what you think a nice tattoo shop would be. For me, I love seeing the designs on the wall. It's, you know, the first time walking into a tattoo shop and seeing the flash and getting that feeling. That's the feeling I want in here for certain people. But there's so many different varieties, and so there's no right or wrong way to do a tattoo shop these days anymore. I don't think it's just all individual. [00:28:08] Speaker B: Yeah. So we talked earlier on about, like, the importance of mentorship, and there's something I wanted to bring up, and we can dip into it or not dip into it. [00:28:17] Speaker A: It's. [00:28:17] Speaker B: Totally. Recall you had mentioned in our lead up that you live with autism. [00:28:23] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. That's very recently fully diagnosed. Yeah. [00:28:27] Speaker B: All right, so if you're thinking about mentorship and developing people, so how does someone in your industry create the right kind of mentoring environment where all sorts of different kinds of people with different kinds of needs can come in and be successful? What are the, like, that key ingredients of mentorship? [00:28:46] Speaker A: Yeah. So I think being available is a massive part of it. You know, if there's a young tattooer who has some questions, I don't mind answering questions. I don't want them to feel like I'm rushing through, like it's a waste of my time and. And being available and not only being available, but having. Now this is a part on my thing is having a detailed answer. You know, like, if you ask somebody, oh, why do you like those needles? And they say, I don't know. I just like them. To me, that's not an answer. You know, I can go into these crazy, in depth explanations sometimes where it's like a runner eight train and I can't stop. But, you know, that helps me when someone does that. Now, I've recently discovered that is part of my autism. But, you know, when Katie here has a question, I have to make sure that I'm available. And it's not just a quick, oh, well, you'll figure it out. Availability is huge. And being very open with your information, there's a lot of gatekeeping and tattooing. A lot of guys want to think, keep. Want to keep things close to the chest, and, well, don't get me wrong, there's some information that you're not going to get right away. You know, you almost have to, so to speak, earn it. But, you know, simple things to make your life better. Like, I've struggled through this. I've figured it out. Maybe it will work for you, maybe it won't, but at least you have the information to use. [00:30:13] Speaker B: Yeah. So, like, going to gatekeeping, like, is mentorship something that's welcome in the tattoo world? Like, are people psyched to have mentors and seek it out, or is it kind of, like, frowned upon and weird? Like, people feel like, no, I just want to do my own thing? [00:30:25] Speaker A: Yeah, it's weird. It's. It's a very strange element of the tattoo world that I still don't fully understand where it's, um. You know, a lot of people, they'll. They'll shit on new tattooers, or there's a new guy, and, you know, they'll. They'll talk a lot of smack about them, but then they'll have, you know, five or six apprentices within five or six years. I think the mentorship for a lot of tattooers is more of an ego boost, honestly. I think they'll take on an apprentice because they want to feel special and they want to, you know, I don't think they're using it as, like, a continuum. You know, we're. We're all just in between guys. You know, tattooing will continue long after we're done with it, but, you know, I don't think they're looking at it as, like, what are you leaving behind with that new person? I think, honestly, it's a big ego boost for people to just take on an apprenticeship and say, oh, I taught this guy how to tattoo. I haven't taken on an apprentice myself yet. I don't think I've ever met the right person. But there's been little blips of helping younger tattooers here and there, because I remember when I was young and so nervous to ask some stupid little question and wondering if they're going to get pissed that you're trying to steal their tricks or whatever, and then you'll meet a guy who'll give you that tiniest bit of information, and it means the world, you know? And I don't think there's a whole lot of that going on anymore. I think there's a lot of stubborn old men, and I think there's a lot of bitter people, and instead of trying to help the younger generation, they just want to tell them to fuck off, so to speak. [00:31:57] Speaker B: Yeah. Do you mind if I share a story about. [00:31:59] Speaker A: Of course. [00:32:02] Speaker B: So when I was putting together the change record, I sent some tracks to a musician that I really look up to. And I said, hey, will you produce the record? And they said no, because I think it's like, you know, they're not gonna spend their time with my, like, rigging day, hardcore record, like, all the way out in Vancouver. But what they did do is they took notes on each track, and they sent me notes on each track, and, like, I'm leaving the person's name out intentionally, a because I'm not, like, trying to drop the name in here, but. So I don't want other people to start hassling them for the same thing. But they totally, they gave me detailed notes. Like, when I say detailed, just like a few lines on each track, and it was like, getting, like, gold. Like, I was like, I can't believe this person took that time. And maybe for them it was like ten minutes or five minutes or maybe it was 15, whatever it was. But I literally took every single line, applied it to the record. It's a better record as a result of it. And it's like those little moments where, like, mentorship or helping other people develop doesn't have to be this crazy, long process. It's just about your willingness to share your knowledge in a meaningful way with someone who is receptive and wants your help. [00:33:09] Speaker A: Absolutely. You know, before, I was too scared to ask questions. So what I would do is I'm extremely high detail focus person. So if I saw somebody have a little video on Instagram, I would analyze that video. Maybe there's something that's in that video that could change everything for me, whether it's a machine or a certain type of red or whatever the case may be these days, it doesn't seem like a lot of people are searching for that information. They just want the answer. So I think there's a lot of value in a little bit, holding a little bit back and not giving everything. But, man, if you give somebody a tiny little piece of information, you can see it in their eyes, how much they appreciate it. Holding back everything is just not helpful. [00:33:54] Speaker B: Totally. And also, I want to capture that idea that you hit on us being afraid to ask questions. When I sent that email to the dude who was asking to, like, to produce a record I had was, like, sweating, and I email, like, CEO's of, like, multimillion dollar companies all day. I'm like, I'm sending this dude this email, and I'm like, excuse me, will you please produce my record? I'm like, hot and getting weird, but, like, you gotta have the willingness to ask questions if you the worst thing someone's gonna say is no. Like, you gotta ask questions, because if they say yes or give you a little bit of that thing, it could change your world. [00:34:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Like a taste could change everything. You know, when I was coming up, there was. There was a tattooer down the states, and he was painting more flash than anybody I had been looking at, and he was just crushing it. And he. In his posts, in his captions, he would say certain details, and it's like, okay, and so this is what I need to do for mine, you know, I really. If this is the look I want. And so I take those little tips that he'd accidentally leave. And for a couple years, I was. I was, you know, blowing all this money on all these. All these supplies, trying to figure out the right thing to do and the right way to do it, so to speak. And it got to a point where I finally got the courage and I sent him a message and just said, hey, man, like, I really want to do this the right way. Like, you know, if you see anything in my work, I didn't ask him how to do it. I said, if you can see anything in my work that I should change, let me know, you know, I'm a big boy. I can handle it. And he sent me, I wasn't expecting. He sent me this massive list of everything from the board and paper to paint on to the brushes to the. To the. How to tape it, how to cover it, all these things, which blew my mind. Like, thank you so much for sharing that information. But what I found out was through me looking at all these detailed little, I guess, like little breadcrumbs, he was leaving. I was already doing everything, you know? So it was. It was really nice that he was able to share that information, and it was really nice that I also discovered it for myself almost at the same time. But, yeah, there's certain tattooers that when you get that information from, it changes everything for you. Like, just that little hint. Little hint to make your life a little easier, whether it helps you or not, just getting that information, it shouldn't be that hard. [00:36:10] Speaker B: Yeah. And I also, like, I love what you're saying about paying that level of attention. So, like, when I think of leadership and I think of, like, you know, business stuff, people get hired into roles for, like, oh, you know, I'm an engineer. Like, this person's, like, an expert engineer, or I'm a therapist, or I'm whatever it is, you know? [00:36:27] Speaker A: Right. [00:36:28] Speaker B: But very rarely are people hired in kind of, like, mid level jobs. Just based on their leadership, maybe, like, senior level jobs. And it's not even that they're a good leader. It's just that the business unit or what they were leading was successful. It's like, there's no, like, leadership, like, test, basically. Right. I'm always real interested in people who are, like, detail oriented about, they lead themselves. They go out and learn things on their own, and they're really curious and they're really focused on it, because to me, that's someone who can value self starters, but also someone who's willing to share their knowledge. And that willing to share your knowledge is because you had to fight for it so hard. You got to dig it up your. Yourself, and you want people, other people to have it. [00:37:11] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, it shouldn't be that hard. You know, it's like being a parent, you know, like, whether you're. If you didn't have the greatest childhood and you become a parent and your goal is, well, I'm not going to make the same mistakes, you know, and it's. It's. It's the same thing with these young tattooers. Like, yes, there is some information you should earn and seek out for yourself, and, and the pride you'll get from that is unmatched that you figured that out, but it doesn't have to be that hard. You know, it never made any sense to me, keeping everything a secret, and, yeah, it just blows my mind that that's still a thing. [00:37:52] Speaker B: So you'd mentioned earlier, like, the diagnosis of autism is relatively new for you, so what led you to go and seek that out? [00:38:02] Speaker A: So when we were in our first tattoo shop, it was me and my wife, and I had brought in somebody who worked with me. We worked previously before, so he knew how I was and how I did things. And I had been running a little late to get supplies for the shop, and I ended up coming into the shop, and the moment I walked in, I looked at my wife and said, did you change the mop soap? She's like, there's no way you could know that. Like, but for me, it's. Everything's, everything is a high detail that I focus on. And I noticed how the floor felt. It felt different that day. And so we're kind of joking around. And she had made a joke after my coworker had said, like, I don't understand how you notice this stuff. And she made a, what I thought was a joke at the time. Turns out it wasn't a joke. She said, well, it's because he's on the spectrum. So my wife has known for a long time, and I played it off as a joke. And once we had kids, I really noticed it starting to affect me in a negative way. Change to my schedule or change to certain routines. And I noticed it started affecting my kids as they're growing and as they're developing, things aren't always going to stay the same way. I need to figure out why I'm so uncomfortable with this. After about two years of really diving in and looking into it, it's like, okay, I need to pull the trigger and talk to somebody who knows what they're talking about and see if this is a thing. And I wasn't going in looking for a strict diagnosis. I was more so going in. Okay, well, if this isn't it, what could it be? And how can I approach it and change my lifestyle in a way that's not going to inconvenience the people around me? Because that was a big concern of mine. I didn't want to feel like a burden. And so once I finally spoke to somebody, it was confirmed, fully diagnosed autistic. And I've been trying to learn how that applies to my business and my family, especially, and how I need to approach things. And it's not necessarily what I've discovered about myself is it's not a luxury of me being a shop owner. It's a necessity at this point. And it's because of that I need the control over the environment. I need control over certain situations. But being diagnosed autistic was unbelievably overwhelming, reanalyzing every interaction I've ever had with coworkers, bosses, customers. I'm starting to finally, at 36 years of age now, trying to understand exactly why I've. I've looked at things the way I have and why nobody else sees them that way either, which has always been a struggle for me in tattooing, but it's changed everything dramatically for the better. I think I have a little bit better understanding why I do the things the way I do. Thank you. [00:41:01] Speaker B: So what have you learned? And then also, how has that changed anything in the way that you go about your business? [00:41:09] Speaker A: Um. Honestly, I'm not. I'm not 100% sure. I'm not. I'm not 100% sure I've learned more things about myself and. And how I look at my business and why I look at it the way I do. But I'm not exactly sure, to be honest on that one. Man. [00:41:31] Speaker B: So what. What elements of autism do you think have helped your career. [00:41:37] Speaker A: Extreme focus to detail and strict control over my schedule and how I approach things. And I think that benefits my customers the most because I'm set up, ready to go. When you come in, your drawings done, that's always been rules I've had. When you work with me in my shop is drawings are done, you're ready to go. It's time management. There's no reason you should be sitting there and drawing for another 2 hours while they sit there. You guys have had this plan for two months. [00:42:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:08] Speaker A: Things like that, which, which are great, but I mean, yeah, I don't know. I'm still learning a lot about the whole autistic side of myself and how I run my business. So forgive me if there's no, like, clear answers to that, because I'm still learning about it. It's still super new to me. [00:42:27] Speaker B: I love it. I love the vulnerability. Can I. Can I share something with you? [00:42:31] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:42:32] Speaker B: So Monica, and then for those who've listened to the show a lot, Monica is my partner. And Monica and Ryan used to work together when we were early relationship. Monica would be like, ryan is the most professional tattoo artist I've ever known in my life. Like, he has everything done on time. His drawings are done on time. He meets people. He's super good with clients. They come in, he's totally focused, gets the job done, they're done. It's just like, requires no management at all. He just, you just have to play the role that a shopperson would play in this space to make sure he's got his supplies and everything. And I remember coming in and getting tattooed at an eternal image and kind of watching your process because I'm in a chair, I got nothing to do but bleed and feel a lot of pain. So I'm trying to distract myself. I'm observing, and I remember your level of focus was insane. You were doing this really cool tattoo on someone's back or tiger tattoo on someone's back, and you were blazing through it, but unbelieve, unbelievable precision and super, super focused while also, like, really managing to, like, you know, keep the person comfortable. And they were doing a pretty painful tattoo. Your approach definitely stood out to me. And what I had thought at the time, before we had ever had this conversation about living with autism, I just thought, oh, that guy's just, like, 100% in it as a complete focused pro. Like, he takes what he does ultra seriously, and I think you. You do. And it also sounds like autism played some part in that. [00:44:02] Speaker A: Yes. And for me, like, in those situations, that's where my hyper focus comes in, and that's. That's where the customer service part of me comes in, too, because there's a. I want everybody to have the same experience with me. And, you know, it was something I worked on for a very long time that instead of sitting there really quiet while doing their tattoo, you know, you may come across as somebody who's aggressive or kind of an asshole if you don't want to talk to the customer, you know? So I made a very conscious effort of, like, making sure to check in and. Are you doing okay? Do you need any breaks? You need a stretch? You need to use the bathroom, anything like that. But it's all part of the job. I'm there to do a job. They're paying me for a job. Tattoos. A lot of people think tattoos are very expensive. You know, it's. For me, it's a lot of time management as well. Like, these people work hard for their money. They take off work sometimes to come in for these appointments, like, there's no pussy footing around, do the job. And it's something my customers have voiced to me that they really appreciate. And it's something that I'm unwavering at. The drawing has to be done. And then there's almost part of that, part of me, too, like, when they come in and make a last minute change, that's where my kind of autism kicks in, is. There's this instant panic. You know, I'm prepared. Everything's under control. I've taken all the steps I need to do to do this, and all of a sudden, someone throws me this curveball. But I've always thought that that was just me doing the job. But it turns out it is part of my autism where it needs to be this way. It's unforgiving, no compromise. It needs to be this way. Everything else around me kind of disappears when I'm doing this tattoo for this person, except that person, which is now I'm learning as part of the autism. Absolutely. [00:45:49] Speaker B: How do you manage that piece of it, though? So, like, you can be the boss. You can own a shop. You can have everything, have your drawings done, all that kind of stuff. But human beings are human beings. Human beings are, like, wonderful, great, considerate, inconsiderate. They fuck up. They do the right thing. So when there's that moment where that curveball gets thrown in, how do you handle it when that. That anxiety or that. That, like, no, it's got to be this way. How do you handle that as a professional? [00:46:16] Speaker A: I'm still kind of working on that side of it because you're right. I mean, it is human beings, like, they want to flip flop. Some people are indecisive. I kind of tries, try to take it case by case, depending on the situation and degree of it. You know, if I've drawn a back piece, if they want to move some leaves on a rose, I mean, that's really not that big of a deal. There's a reason I put them there. There's always a reason behind everything I do. But, you know, it's not a deal breaker to just take those out. But when it's a complete redraw, I'm still trying to figure out how to. How to manage those feelings of anxiety and frustration in those last minute moments. But it had, they very rarely happen because of the processes I take and because those are the processes that I need to do my job. So it's very rare somebody comes in and throws a wrench in the spokes for me, which I'm thankful for. [00:47:10] Speaker B: Well, and so much of the way that you approach this, part of it is like living with autism, but part of it, like, what you said is like, hey, I got to take it seriously. Like, this cost them money. They're taking time off. It's kind of a reversal of how I see a lot of people run their businesses as tattoo artists. And what I mean by that is, like, are you familiar with the concept of servant leadership? [00:47:31] Speaker A: No. [00:47:32] Speaker B: So it's the idea that, like, someone could be the CEO, but they're like, oh, no, no, no. I am here to make you successful. Like, so, like, I am here to serve the people. Although I'm the CEO, I'm here to serve. It's an inverted relationship. I'm here to serve everyone else. And it's like, it gets talked about a lot. Like, oh, we believe in servant leadership. And it's like, you know, then it's just like, typical, like, hierarchy bullshit. But conceptually, I like it when you're talking about it, it sounds like kind of a servant leadership model. And what I mean by that is like, dude, I can't even tell you the amount of times I've gone to get tattooed and the drawings not done and, like, someone wants to get lunch, and it's like, you know, it's like, it's that thing. And it's always. I've tend to get tattooed by people I'm friends with. So I'm kind of. I laugh about it. It's no big deal. And not. Not Scott, by the way. Scott, not you. But there's an inherent power that's involved with getting, with being a tattoo artist. Like, you have tons of power. You have a very specialized thing that you're doing, especially if you're good and you're sought after. It's like a cool environment, so people are. Don't want to look like a loser or a lame. Like, I don't want to be the complainer. You have a ton of power wrapped around you. And instead what you're saying is, no, I want to make this as efficient, effective, as good experience. To me, it's a servant leadership model that you're applying. [00:48:46] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, absolutely. A lot of tattooers, it feels like when they're speaking to a customer, they're always speaking from a perspective of, like, they're doing them a favor. [00:48:54] Speaker B: Right. [00:48:55] Speaker A: And the way I look at it is, fuck, I'm lucky that anybody wants to get tattooed by me. [00:49:00] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:49:00] Speaker A: I mean, I'm in a city with hundreds and hundreds of amazing tattooers, and they could have the pick of the litter, you know, and the fact that they chose me to do it, and that's how I can support my family, it means everything to me. So, you know, and not only that, but the fact that they have a good experience and then they want to come back or that they tell their friends about, you know, even if someone can lay down an amazing tattoo, that experience is what it. What people talk about. I mean, most people don't know what a good tattoo is, let's be honest. They're looking for an experience. And it's one of those things where I think as long as you're treating the customer well, you're putting it more so about them than yourselves. You know, there's a lot of tattooers that are so worried about being an artist. I only do my designs well. They're the ones who have to live with it for the rest of their lives. Like, why don't they get a say? Why don't they have a voice in this? Why are you drowning them out? It doesn't that I don't agree with it. [00:49:59] Speaker B: Yeah. So, because this is like a pretty sharp contrast. I'm going to tell you a story about getting tattooed at a convention, if you don't mind. [00:50:07] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. [00:50:09] Speaker B: So I was in. I was in California, and for a total of the reason. And there was a tattoo convention where someone that I'm very good friends with was tattooing, and I had an unfinished piece that they were doing, and I was like, oh, crap. Hey, I hit him up. I'm like, yo, can I come get that, too? They're like, yeah, for sure. So we go in, and we're getting. I'm getting this back piece done, and it's this big rock of ages back piece, and this shit hurts. It hurts. [00:50:32] Speaker A: It's hard. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. [00:50:35] Speaker B: And, you know, there's a ton of people there, and you're in a convention setting. So I've got, like, no shirt off in front of hundreds of people, and, like, people are looking and they're commenting, fine. It's by nature, not some, the kind of environment I want to get tattooed in. But the person I was getting tattooed by, we don't live in the same city. It was just like, crossover. We happen to be there. I'm going to get it done. I'll never forget this. And I always bust my friend's butt about this. It's like, I'm getting tattooed, and another tattoo artist comes over and is looking at the tattoo, and he's like, and no joke, this is actually, the conversation was like, so I'm getting tattooed, and the other guy goes, wow, that's such an unassuming tattoo, man. It's really unassuming. And the guy was tattooing me stops and is like, wow, thanks, man. I really appreciate that. And then you start chit chatting. I'm just there bleeding, like I'm in total pain, and I'm like, come on, come on. But I'm not saying anything. And they're just chit chatting back and forth. And, you know, after like, maybe five minutes, he's like. And I mean, literally five minutes, he's like, all right, man, I'm gonna get back to tattooing. And then he just starts tattooing again and then stops. He's like, really unassuming. Wow, thanks so much, man. And finally I sit up, I'm like, yo, like, get back to this. Start tattooing me right now. So years later, like, legitimate years later, I'm telling him this story, and he's like, I did not do that. I'm like, you totally did that, man. And I'm like, I want to know, did you do it? Because I'm your friend. We've known each other forever. Were you just caught up in the moment, or were you just like, kind of like that tattoo culture? Like, you know, like, almost like the person you're tattooing is like, just. They're like furniture. [00:52:10] Speaker A: They're just a piece of meat. Yeah. [00:52:12] Speaker B: And he was like, I want to say it's because you're my friend. That I was that disregarded you that much. But I don't know, man. I got to think about it, and the whole thing is, like, man, everyone who gets tattooed loves getting tattooed. Like, we, like, we love the culture, but I think we could say that, like, the tattoo artist has a ton of power from, like, how it looks, what your experience is, and you have just such a different approach. And I find it, like, really refreshing. But it also seems like there is a bit of a. There has been a sea change going on in the industry that is much more customer focused. Do you think that's because it's like, it's because it's so much more competitive now? Or is it because people actually are just taking that side of it more seriously? [00:52:56] Speaker A: I think with the development of, like, social media and stuff, there's no hiding behind a bad experience anymore. You know, like, if you're going to be an asshole to customers, people are going to find out. Yeah. And I think customers, well, don't get me wrong, like, this isn't McDonald's. This isn't. Have it your way in 30 seconds or less. They're a lot more open to saying what they want, and I don't think it's in every situation. I think they're advocating for themselves a little bit more now because they see the options that there are. I always tell my customers, like, if you're uncomfortable in a shop within, you know, five minutes, walk out, including mine. Like, if you don't feel reviving good, get out, go somewhere else, you know, I don't know about the customer service shift. I don't really visit a whole lot of tattoo shops anymore, but it seems. It seems that tattooers, thank God, are starting to take it a little bit more seriously when it comes to regards of what the customer actually wants out of this. You know, whether it be their tattoo design or their experience, it seems like it's a slow train that's moving, I think, but I think it's going in the right direction. [00:54:04] Speaker B: So around social media, it sounds like you've seen a benefit of that being a part of the whole culture now because it's, like, undeniably, like, most tattoo artists at this point are, like, putting stuff online. So how have you found interacting with that? [00:54:21] Speaker A: Well, it's completely changed my look of tattoo shops entirely. You know, back in the day, it used to be like, when you saw a nice tattoo, you'd ask them, oh, where'd you get that? It was never who did it. It was, where did you get it? And in growing up in Calgary, there was always three shops, always that people said, and it didn't matter who did it, it mattered where you got it from. So there was this, like, group, you know, if you worked at this shop, you were one of those guys, you know, you were gonna stay busy. You're, you're doing the right thing. If you got hired there. With the, with the development of social media, it seemed like it was more focused on the individual tattooer. So, you know, it wasn't shop pages. There are shop pages, but they don't have nearly the following or interaction that an individual artist from that shop would have based on popularity or the scale of their work. But I quickly realized, like, okay, tattoo shops, they don't need, like, tattoo shops need tattooers, but tattooers don't need the tattoo shops anymore. [00:55:25] Speaker B: Right? [00:55:26] Speaker A: So that's where, you know, that that was a big thing for me. It was like, you know, that's why there's so many private studios, that's why there's so many little collectives, and it's not so much about the whole anymore. It's about the individual, and that's what social media did, which, it can be a good, and it has its pluses and minuses, but that was a major shift. I noticed it wasn't, nobody were talking about shops anymore, they were talking about individual tattooers. So that was, that was a huge shift. [00:55:55] Speaker B: Dude, that's super interesting. I never looked at it that way. There's a contact point that I'd make on that is that when all of the music platforms started coming in, like iTunes, Spotify, all that kind of stuff, there hit a point where bands realized like, you know, we don't actually need record labels anymore. And it, there used to be kind of like you were saying there were these, like, iconic record labels. Like, hey, if you're on this record label, that means you're at least someone I need to take seriously and at least need to check it out. And then it became, like, totally decentralized where, like, everyone was just putting out their own music. And now it's actually started to be a shift again, where labels are actually starting to become important. Like, really important because labels have stopped acting like record labels and almost more like marketing, marketing, promotion companies, like, right. Or distro companies. Like, they've changed their business model. Do you think there's going to be a road path? Like a path back to shops being super important? Like, labels are starting to become important again. [00:56:56] Speaker A: I think there's going to be a, there's going to have to be a lot of work done on the shop owner's part for that to happen. I think shop owners are starting to realize, like, what they're doing is it's not a good environment and people would rather just go off and do a private studio. You know, how you treat the people you work with and the freedoms that you give them, especially in this, in the tattoo world. Like I said, we can do this anywhere. Like, feeling like you're chained to a shop is not okay. There's got to be a lot of kind of looking in the mirror situations for a lot of shop owners, I think, and realizing what they're doing probably isn't helping their business and that's why they have such high turnover tattooers or why they, why there's so many people going and starting their own thing or a private studio where they don't have to deal with that stuff. I think it's possible, but it's tough to say that there's that many people that like to look at themselves in a critical mirror. [00:57:52] Speaker B: Well, what stands out for me is like, you know, record labels. So I've been on teeny little record labels and I've been on record labels that are like, almost like a major, and I've, I've been like, kind of in the in between and nobody wanted to look at themselves in the mirror and everybody was clinging on to the like, well, that's just how it's done kind of thing. Until they didn't. Until at one point, bands were like, we don't need you anymore. And it was like such a sharp 180 of how, like how they do business, like how they, like how the, the actual mechanism of the music industry has changed so much. And it didn't happen overnight, but it did happen really quickly, like within, like, let's say five to ten years. The whole thing switched over to almost where it's like, it's so different now, how it operates and how labels, and I think there's still some old school stuff that goes on, but it's quite a bit different. I wonder if it's going to get to a point where shops get become so obsolete that people have to be like, it's. Whether or not I want to hold up the mirror doesn't matter. I have to do it if I want my business to survive. [00:58:54] Speaker A: Oh, well, I think. I think it'll get to that point, honestly. I think it'll be. They'll force. Be forced into it. I mean, there's been shops that had, you know, twelve tattooer turnover in a year and, or there's a massive coup of guys and they all leave at once. You know, if you want to continue your business, you have to change. You know, you can't expect everybody to do things the old school way, which is ridiculous because most of these guys touting that ideology weren't even part of the old school. You know, it's just something they thought was cool and something they learned. But it's going to, it's going to happen, but I think it's going to take a long time because if there's one thing I know about tattooers is they don't want to be told what to do. That's just it. They'd rather take their ego and, and well know this is how I do things and fuck all the rest of you. And hopefully, but it'll be a very, very gradual shift and I think it'll get worse before it gets better. Honestly, I don't think. I don't think those mega shops, while there always be a few, it won't be like it used to be where it was like you only went to that shop based on the name. You didn't even care who did your tattoo. I don't think that exists anymore with social media. [01:00:05] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So going back to living with autism, but I know because it's a relatively new diagnosis for you. And when I ask you a question like, huh, I need to think about it. I don't have an answer for that. But if we took a step back, is there any advice that you would give to people living with autism if they're thinking about starting their own business or. Actually I'd say, well, maybe advice you want to give about being a professional or starting your own business. Anything specific to living with autism? [01:00:35] Speaker A: I think especially with autism, like the need to understand what you need to do your job as effectively as possible. I need to have my own place. And it's all, autism is such a wide spectrum and such a personalized thing. It's so different for everybody. So it's very hard to relate to other people in the way they approach things in their businesses. But really taking a critical eye like some and taking the jump and trying to be your own boss for once, I think is really important, whether it works out or not. At least trying it. I've been trying to find online a lot of people who are business owners with autism, and it seems it's a hard thing to do, honestly, is find those people and connect with them and relate to them because it's so individualized. But if I had one piece of advice is just do it. Just start your. Start your little shop, start your little Etsy company. Do something for you where you have every element of control over it and you can make the vision that you want. That's, man. I mean, outside of that, even if it doesn't work out, at least you did it. And, you know, you can find out why it didn't work out. You know, you can hyper analyze all these little tiny details and see why it worked, what worked, what didn't, and what you need to do in the future. But for me, it was very obvious that I have to own my own business. I have to be my own boss. There's just no way around it anymore. Sitting and working for somebody else. It doesn't work for me. Even great people, there are certain things like whether I, I don't disagree how they run their business, but even in the micro situations, like you're ordering stuff from this supply company when you could be saving money by buying it from this place or putting in, you know, an extra half hour of work and cutting things up instead of, they come pre cut for you. Like, why, to me, that wouldn't make any sense, you know, spending the extra money to do something like that. So for me, having control over those elements is super, super important. And I, again, I've learned that's because of my autism. Yeah, but take the jump. Just fucking do it. Be your own boss. Like, if it works, great. If it doesn't, whatever. But at least you'll know what you need to proceed to be successful in the future when it comes to your autism because it's so different for everybody. [01:03:15] Speaker B: And I'd add into that, and certainly I don't live with autism, but I would say suggest for anyone who has any needs, like any kind of special needs, to know how to do your job, it's know what you need to do. But then communicate that clearly and effectively to people. Yes. Working with other people, whether it's just two people working together or like, you're working in a huge company, I have found that if we're like, people are super clear in a, they really have truly done the work to figure out what they need to be successful. Like, hey, this is what I need to do a good job. And then they also clearly communicate that most people are willing to play ball to at least give it a shot. But you absolutely, you can't just know what you need. You have to share it with people. [01:03:58] Speaker A: Yes. So especially with me when I like Katie, our new girl, that we brought on. She. She started with me back in April. Like I said, we had about, I think we had two meetings where we sat down. And I always like to make it very clear, this is how I like to run my shop. This is how I like things done. Some things are. There's no compromise. Some things are flexible. I'm not sure what they are. We'll get to it when we get to it. But I made sure to be extremely honest and lay out exactly how I do things. And I told her, like, I don't need you to give me an answer right now. In fact, I want you to sit with the decision and think about it and make sure it's the right thing for you, because once you come here, this is how we do things. And she really appreciated that, you know, that blatant honesty. And it's something I continue to do. Like, you know, there's a lot of growing pains when you bring somebody into your business, especially when you've been by yourself for a little over a year, those growing pains are expected. But, you know, once I discover them, it's very important for me to voice them right away, whether I think it's important or not. It's. Letting it sit and Stew isn't healthy. It's not a good environment either. And I made sure to tell her that applies to you as well. If there's something that you would like me to do differently, if there's something you want the shop to do as a whole, to do differently that would help you do a better job, just say it. You're not going to hurt my feelings. You know, I think a lot of people, when they work for somebody, they don't want to. They don't want to say their honest opinion, whether they're happy or unhappy. Honestly. Yeah, but. [01:05:31] Speaker B: Oh, go ahead. [01:05:32] Speaker A: No, that was an extremely crucial part of all of my two shops that I've had, was honesty. It doesn't matter. Don't worry about feelings. Just say it, get it out there, and then we can approach it from a different kind of angle, you know? [01:05:48] Speaker B: Yeah, but the approach that you're talking about, and I know this is true about you, the approach that you're talking about is something a lot of people will say. Like, very few people are going to be like, hey, listen, if you have an opinion, you want something different, don't tell me, because I'm going to have a huge, like, passive aggressive meltdown about it, and it's not going to go good. So just, you know, sit on it. Most people are going to be like, oh, be honest. But it's interesting because for me, being both therapist and then also being a business coach and then also a business owner, a lot of people want to feel that they're the kind of boss that can say that. And a lot of people, once they. Once it's feedback they're comfortable with, they can play in that ballpark. But as soon as it's that one thing that, like, that makes me uncomfortable, they shut down. They shut down the conversation. And I see this all the time. So for me, it's like, it's better that people don't say it if they can't do it and then only. Only say it if you can walk it, basically. Like, yes. [01:06:47] Speaker A: Yeah, that is a huge problem I've had with tattooing in general, with. My experience was there's a lot of people that talk a big game and, you know, when it comes down to action, there's a lot of silence. You know, there's. All you can hear is crickets. But I think standing behind your word and meaning what you say, coming from a kind and helpful place, has massive impact. Massive impact. And, you know, with. With my girl that. With Katie, who's been here, you know, there's a couple little things. Like, I'm learning tons from her. [01:07:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:07:23] Speaker A: Because she's being honest with me. And, you know, well, shit, I didn't really look. Look at it like that. And that helps me. Like, I don't. I don't want to sit in an echo chamber where everyone thinks I'm the best boss and this is the right way to do it. Like, maybe there are better ways to do things. You know, I'm. I can be a little strict when it comes to my one on one with customers. Like, this is how I approach the tattoo. But outside of that, like, you know, honesty from all ends, I just think it's beneficial. I think burying it deep down, it doesn't. Doesn't help anybody. [01:07:55] Speaker B: Well, what I find, like, super funny about this is, like, I have a client that I work with who is, like, said something recently that this is going to sound bizarre of how proud I was of them. Basically, the CEO said to one of their reports is, hey, listen, I'm super direct. I ruffle feathers. Sometimes I say things that sound mean. Sometimes I say things that are mean. This is just who I am. I move really, really fast. I cut people off. I do these things. And it's not because I'm trying to hurt anyone's feelings. And I'm working on it. But I'm only going to be able to change so much. So if you want to work with me, you got to work with me, knowing that not every opinion I want to hear, not every idea I want to explore, I want to focus on these things. And you need to figure out my rhythm. Now, when they said that, it might sound strange that I was proud of them. I was proud of them because they weren't doing the, oh, all opinions are welcome, and everything's welcome. They were telling the truth about how they actually act, which I think is healthier, because then someone can make an informed decision about whether or not they want to be in that space and that making an informed decision is one of the most important things an employee can have, is if your boss is actually open, cool, then you can make an informed decision. If your boss isn't open cool, you can make an informed decision. That's the, like, leaders should be honest about how they actually are rather than trying to paint this rosy picture of how they wish people would perceive them. [01:09:22] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, like, I mean, I was guilty of that for a long time. You know, I'm very open and honest, almost too direct of how I say things, and I've had to learn how to dial that back a little bit with people. But for me, that's the way I grow, is honesty. And for me, there's no other way. I don't learn from pussy footing around or sugarcoating it for everybody. You're telling everybody, oh, you're so amazing all the time. There's always room for improvement. And I need to be around people who view it the same way. Everyone I've had, whether it's a drawing critique or. I think you should have tried this differently. Everyone looks at that criticism equally as. It's not. We're trying to help, not hinder. Right. You know, I'm not coming over to tell you you suck to make you feel bad, you know, genuinely coming from a place of wanting to help, and I wouldn't want somebody doing that with me. So it's not something I've been able to do with other people, like, kind of sugarcoat things, but it's extremely important to me that I would never ask or do of other people what I wouldn't do myself first. [01:10:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:10:36] Speaker A: Unbelievably important. [01:10:38] Speaker B: So you mentioned a few times the kind of, like, non negotiables about how you run your shop. So what are some of the non negotiables for you? [01:10:44] Speaker A: Non negotiables are you. You're ready and you're set up. When they walk in the door, your drawing is ready. You have done your consult. You have done all the prep work. All they have to do is sign the paperwork, sit down, stencil, get to tattoo, period. During that time, I don't. This is where me and a lot of other tattooers don't really agree with, and this is how I apply my one on one. So keep that in mind is when we take breaks, we're breaking for less than five minutes, if that's what you need, just to get a quick bite in you. I don't like to waste a whole lot of time. I don't agree in stopping to have a 45 minutes lunch. You know, I've been in that situation, and when you come back from the break, that tattoo fucking hurts. From sitting there and getting back into it. It's the worst. So I. It's just not. I don't do that. I don't eat during the day when I'm working. I don't eat a single thing while I'm working because it takes away time from the tattoo, from tattooing that customer. A big thing is valuing each other's time and respecting that time. You know, they're, like I said, they take days off work to come in. Sometimes they'll book a flight and travel in and pay for a hotel for a small tattoo. When they're paying for your time, they get your attention, period. Those are some of the things, like. But also, like, you know, with Katie, I try to tell her, like, you know, you are also your own boss. Like, I want you to set your schedule, and if you don't have any customers in and you don't want to come into the shop, stay home, take the day. Like, I'm not trying to make you do things you don't want to do. Like, you're a grown adult, but there's certain rules that when you are here that they're unwavering. And being set up and ready for that customer and respecting their time is number one for me. [01:12:35] Speaker B: Hell yeah, man. I absolutely love that. So tell us about your consultation process, because I know it's a, it's a pretty in depth process. [01:12:43] Speaker A: Yeah. So, I mean, a lot of people find it in depth. To me, it's just, it makes sense when I talk to people. So I've cut down doing consults every single day because it takes away. I found when I was booking consults, it was always at the end of an end of my day. And it came close to, like, me missing bed and bath time with my girls at home. So we've condensed it where I take a day off every Thursday during the week. I have consultations with people and their scheduled time. So there's no other tattooing happening, there's no other distractions. Nobody else is here. It's one on one. When I talk to people, they'll give you the general idea, and that's my time to really focus and kind of get a read on exactly what they're looking for. Like, you know, people who say, do whatever you want, just do your thing. The way my brain works, I don't know what that means, you know, and so I need to talk to these people and find out, okay, well, how open are you? If they say, I want a panther, do whatever you want. Okay, well, let's do it pink. You know? You know, they may say, well, maybe not pink. Okay, well, do whatever you want. Doesn't apply, then. So what exactly do you mean by that? I'm a very literal person. I have a hard time reading between the lines. So when people are giving me descriptive words like, I want it whimsical and flowing, I don't know what that means. I. It's a different interpretation for everybody. So instead of having that panic when I'm doing the drawing and trying to interpret the conversation, that's all been done through in the consultation, you know, I can. I don't have any questions. The customer shouldn't have any questions. Like, I wonder what he's going to do with my drawing. I'm very clear what I'm going to do with it. I'll make suggestions. You either take them or you don't. That's great. You won't show up to have your tattoo, have anything in it we did not talk about. That is extremely important to me. I don't want to last minute surprise somebody with something and feel like I pressured them into doing something they maybe didn't want to do. So that consultation period is extremely important for me to understand what they're wanting and to do my job properly and efficiently. You know, if I'm going to bang out a drawing, I don't want to sit there and have to email them 30 times asking, well, is this okay if I do this? Is this okay if I do this? That's just not efficient for me at all, you know, I want to be able to sit down at a drawing with confidence. I know what this person wants, and I can give that to them. [01:15:05] Speaker B: Yeah. So let's go back to family life a little bit. You'd mentioned, you know, one of your children living with some ongoing health concerns. Yeah. How has that, if at all, how has that changed or impacted the way you work, the way you run your business, the way that you operate professionally? [01:15:23] Speaker A: Family's priority, you know, it was when they're born. But once we discovered my daughter needed heart surgery, it changed everything. It. Nothing else mattered. You know, it was. Everything else kind of just disappeared of my love for tattooing, everything. Like, I went through, you know, this little period where I didn't want to go into the shop because it just wasn't important in comparison, you know, people's tattoos, while it may be the most important thing to them at their time, and it could help them heal, it could help them do whatever they're getting that tattoo for whatever reason they are, it doesn't matter, because my daughter is the number one priority. So she went through her heart surgery January this year, and, you know, we get a little bit of a break for it for a while, but even now, like, I don't know, that time's precious, man. Like, when I'm with them, nothing else matters. It just doesn't matter. So I've made a conscious effort that when I'm with them, the phone goes down, you know, I'm not talking to customers, I'm not looking at Instagram. I mean, I'm. Everybody's guilty of it, but that is hyper focused time on them, you know? And, yeah, tattooing was everything to me for over ten years. It consumed every aspect. Everything else disappeared. My kids have replaced that feeling entirely. [01:16:52] Speaker B: Yeah. So I know you have such a priority on family. How do you keep rough business days from impacting what happens when you come home? [01:17:02] Speaker A: So when we had our shop in Parksville, we lived less than two minutes from the shop, and, you know, we had two newborn twins, you know, and twins are gnarly. Like, it's. It's a wild road in that first six months, you know, and, you know, I'd be at work and there'd be a gnarly day, and I'd be. I drive the 30 seconds home, walk in the door, and you're thrown into just pure chaos with the kids. I need a separation. I need a distance, you know, if I'm at the shop. So right now I live about 20 to 30 minutes away, and that distance has been great for me because that drive, you know, if you've had a bad day with a customer and he was a total asshole or whatever the case may be, or things just didn't go the way you were expecting that day. I have 20 to 30 minutes to sit in the car, turn on some nice loud music, and get in dad mode, because what happened at the shop, that doesn't matter to my kids. It doesn't matter to them. You know, I could. I could tell them all, dad had a bad day, and instantly they just want to cheer you up. You know, they just want to spend time with you and have a good time. So that distance between the shop and home is absolutely needed for me. And same thing, like, you could. I could be at home having a rough time with the kids, and they're just being unforgiving and unrelenting in chaos at home. The customer at work also doesn't deserve that. You know, they're paying for a good experience for their tattoos. So when I'm driving to the shop, it's time to let go and get in. Like, you know, tattoo shop customer service mode that's been crucial for me is keeping that separation. [01:18:39] Speaker B: Yeah, that two minute window. Like, that would be really hard to make that switch over, but that 2030 minutes allows you to kind of, like, switch over into the different. The different spaces. [01:18:47] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And it. And it really helped with my home life as well, because back when we had Parksville tattoo being only like a minute from the shop, it's very easy to like, oh, I gotta run to the shop. I forgot something, or I forgot to check if we had paper towel or whatever. And when you're in there, it's very easy to spend 2 hours bullshitting. [01:19:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:19:09] Speaker A: You know, and. But with the distance that I have here now, I can't just run to the shop lickety split and be back quick. Like, it's got to be something important, and nothing's that important anymore. Honestly, it can wait. [01:19:24] Speaker B: So again, going with the theme of family, I know a lot of professionals experience this, but especially small business owners, where your work becomes so all consuming, because it almost. It's like, my business is who I am. You've made a real focus on that, but you've also been with your partner since you were very, very young. How have you been able to prioritize your relationship throughout as you've been building this business? [01:19:50] Speaker A: Well, it's kind of gone in waves. She's been extremely understanding about my hyper obsessiveness about tattooing. In the beginning, she was very supportive. But one thing that sticks out to me is there was one year where I was really trying to figure out how to paint tattoo flash, and I was just so consumed in what I was doing. That she kept track of the days I didn't go in the shop. And I think it was between May and October, November. She counted four days where I didn't go in the tattoo shop. And that really hit me. One, it didn't feel like I worked that much because I was enjoying it, you know, like, it was just all I wanted to do. And two, it hit me because she kept track of it. So obviously it meant something to her that I was gone so much, you know? And it's like, okay, well, now it's time to refocus and reprioritize. She has been. I wouldn't be tattooing if it wasn't for my wife. I owe her everything, and her support has been like no other person on the planet. But now that I have the family, it's totally shifted. You know, I know she would never ask me to spend more time at home because I love what I do, and that's just how she is. She's amazing. She would let me dive into this tattoo world even more. Even with kids at home, she would never ask me, but it's. They're more important now than tattooing, so she doesn't have to, if that makes sense. [01:21:22] Speaker B: Makes perfect sense. [01:21:24] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, my job, when I come home, it's. It's almost like the relief, you know, especially with twins. Like, if she's having a rough day, the moment you walk in, you know, it's like, okay, go take a breather. I got this dad mode. You know, I can handle this. You know, it's a very give and take thing. But my wife has been very understanding with the tattoo world and has encouraged me to pursue it further. Where, in parts, I feel like I'm kind of holding back to stay with the family more because it is. It is more important to me at this point. [01:21:56] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, totally, man. All right, so as we're heading to the close of the interview, is there anything that you want to touch base on? [01:22:04] Speaker A: Oh, man, not a ton. Not a ton. Sorry. I mean, it's been a lot of rambling on my part. Hopefully, it was a little helpful. But, you know. You know, one big thing that I'm really hoping changing and tattooing is people voicing and standing up for what they believe in. Regardless of what that is, it seems like a lot of people are too scared to speak up. And with the events of 2020, with a lot of tattooers being called out, it seems like people are still scared to voice their opinions and be vocal about it. And I'm hoping that'll change and stand by, standing by what they're saying as well. I mean, we went over that earlier, but. [01:22:52] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and anything that has like a cool factor, right? So it's like, as an example, music. Tons of people want to be musicians or work in music, right? And it's like, it's such a. It's limited real estate. You only have so many, so much real estate. If you think of real estate, it's like audience attention. How many records people are going to buy, how many concerts they're going to go to, how many articles are going to be written about bands. It's not limitless. It's actually quite limited per year, like, how much space people have. And people eke out these little spaces, whether it's in tattooing or music or whatever artistic thing or whatever cool thing that people are a part of. And if it's this or nothing kind of mindset, it's like I'm in music or I'm at. In tattooing or nothing, I'll have to go get a real job. That fear of losing something, it keeps people quiet. And I totally understand it. I totally get it. People bust their asses. They get to this place. And maybe you're not just sitting there quiet, like, oh, I'm not going to say something. Maybe you got blinders on, maybe you don't want to see. Maybe the people around you are just really good at hiding it. I totally. I think you totally get it. But, like, how cool is a culture? Like, how worthwhile is something if you have to compromise in ways that put other people in harm's way and. [01:24:08] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think a lot of people, their silence comes from a place of. They're worried about their own career, you know, they're worried about stepping on toes. And while I understand that aspect, I don't agree with it. I think if you love something, you should do everything you can to protect it and show its value for what you see it as. You know, if you're worried about your company looking bad or you're worried about your shop going under because you were vocal about something you're passionate about, I mean, maybe you're focusing on the wrong things. Like, I love tattooing. I think it's amazing. But do I agree with certain tattooers still working and being busy after certain events in 2020? Absolutely not. I think people should be vocal and say, you don't belong in this space. You blew it. You know? Yeah, there's no seat at the table for you anymore. You. You had your chance and you fucked it up. And a lot of people don't want to say that because they're, whatever repercussions or whatever, who knows the reasons? I don't agree with it. I think. I think tattooers need to start being more vocal about. About conventions, about certain tattoo shops, about certain tattooers. I think they need to be honest and open about the experiences they're having, whether it's from their customers perspective or from their own being in the shop or being at the convention. I think they need to be honest about it and let people decide. You know, that, to me, is everything. But without the tattooers in the industry, especially the males advocating for these things, it's never going to change. It's never going to change. [01:25:50] Speaker B: Totally. All right, so as we're closing off, we're going to ask. I'm going to ask you three questions, okay? But before we get to the three questions, where can people. Is there anything you want to hype up? Where can people find you? Where can they find the shop? Just tell us about all the details. [01:26:03] Speaker A: Yeah. So the shop is located just outside Kensington. Like historical Kensington in Calgary on 14th street. If you want to reach me for a tattoo, best way to do is email me. You'll get in touch with my wife. Please be respectful of her time as well. She'll handle you as best as possible. And then we'll sit down, we'll talk about a tattoo. But, yeah, also, please, please check out Katie. She is new tattooer at the shop. She's a great young tattooer doing amazing tattoos. I wish my tattoos were that clean. A year and a half in, I think it's grizzly. Grizzly dot ink inks on Instagram. You'll be able to find her easily, but go show her some love because she's been really, really crushing it. [01:26:49] Speaker B: Okay, awesome. And we'll add all the links in to this as well. Make sure we got all that. All right, here are your three questions. They're going to be tough, so get ready. All right, three tattooers who have either directly or indirectly influenced you. [01:27:08] Speaker A: Okay. Absolute number one. Absolute number one above all is Bob Roberts. Bob Roberts owns a shop in Los Angeles called Spotlight Tattoo. It's been around a long time. He has recently passed, and I was lucky enough to be able to go down there and work with them, enjoy some time with him at his house. He is, above all, my main influence in tattooing. My main inspiration, everything. Bob was extremely honest. He was extremely encouraging. And even at his age, he was curious about doing things other ways no other person's work impacted me the way Bob's did. I was tracing his designs before I even knew who he was. There's something about the power and the movement in his tattoos that I just don't see anywhere else. And, yeah, the tattoo world lost to me. The best there is and the best that will ever do it was Bob Roberts. As far as the other two, I will always first and foremost give credit to two of my mentors through tattooing. I didn't start with them, but I credit them with everything. The first one is Lucas Ford. He owns a tattoo supply company called Good Guys Supply. I credit Lucas with teaching me how to tattoo from the technical side. He was very amazing with answering any questions I had, especially when it kept getting into smaller and smaller details of those things. He was able to answer them or point me in the right direction, which I am forever grateful for. And my other mentor, Sean Headley, he owns a tattoo shop up in Edmonton called Champion Tattoo. I credit Headley with teaching me how to be a tattooer. I think they are two very different things, and he really taught me how to talk with people and customers, make them feel comfortable. And it's not about you, it's about them. Give them what they want and how you present yourself online and you can still be this good, fun dude and enjoy your job and still have this kind of authority in the shop, like, you know what you're doing and with the confidence. And I learned a lot from those two people. I credit them with everything for my career. [01:29:24] Speaker B: Heck, yeah. All right, second question. So we've talked a lot about mentorship here, apprenticeships when it comes to tattooing, like, you know, people are looking at to get in. It's interesting, though, because if you find someone to apprentice under and they. They're assholes or they suck or maybe they have bad morals or whatever it is, it can really screw up your life, screw up your career, screw up your outlook. So what advice do you have for people looking to develop into tattoo artists when they're looking for an apprenticeship? [01:29:52] Speaker A: So the biggest thing, the biggest advice I could tell anybody who wants to get into tattooing wants to look for an apprenticeship is get tattooed. That's the main thing. It's very unlikely somebody's going to give you the gift of tattooing and the craft of tattooing if you've never a spent money in their business or supported them in any way or recognizable, you know, it's a very intimate relationship between apprentice and mentor. And you guys have to really know if you get along. You know, if you're spending a lot of time in that chair and getting tattooed, you can get a read on somebody. You know, could you spend a lot of time with this person? That is my main thing is make yourself known around that shop. People really have to stop sending Instagram messages being like, are you looking for an apprentice? That is not the way to do it. Please stop doing that. You have to be familiar, be inside, get in the shop, spend some money, support their business. You know, they might say no, but, you know, they're not going to give it to a stranger. Not only that, draw way more than you think. You have to. The bar is set so high right now. You know, there's tattooers I've been tattooing six months that blow me out of the water. And, you know, if you want to get into it, you have to show that you can bring some value to it as well. You know, draw, draw, draw. That is the main thing for new apprentices or anybody looking into it. And, you know, take your portfolio, take your book to the person you would like to learn from and ask them to critique you. You know, get some good, solid advice on what you're doing wrong, what you're doing right, and take that advice and show them that you can apply it. You know, that you didn't just waste their time and they just wasted their breath on you. Take that information and do something with it. Bring it back in a month. Show them what you did. Ask for another critique. You really have to become familiar. I don't think this whole, like, it doesn't matter who I apprentice. As long as I charge them ten grand, you can apprentice. I don't agree with it. It's a very intimate thing, the one on one aspect of that tattoo world. And there's a lot of people who are doing it right, but there's a lot of people who are doing it wrong. But the person who walking in looking for that apprenticeship, don't even ask when you're still a stranger. Become familiar. [01:32:20] Speaker B: All right, final question. From your perspective, someone who's been in the game for a while and also has a lot of Runway to keep going, what's the most important element of being able to be, to work in this industry successfully for a long time and keep a good name. [01:32:40] Speaker A: Realize that it has very little to do with you. You're not special. If Covid showed me anything, it's we are expendable. The world could staff a finger, disappear every tattooer, and it wouldn't make a difference. You know, we're very lucky to do what we're doing. Just let your ego go. It's not about you. You're not the one who has to wear the tattoo. Put the customer first, you know, make sure that they know what they're getting into. Do your job and give them well informed information so they can make a well informed decision and the rest is up to them. But as long as you do that, anyone could have a long career in tattooing. It's the assholes who only worry about themselves and want to be artists that they're not going to have a nice long career. I mean, they could, but the chances of them staying busy for a long distance at a time are pretty slim. You know, your customers are everything. Everything. You know, before the Internet there was word of mouth. If you did a good tattoo, it was ten people heard about it. You know, you do, a bad 100 people hear about it. It's just how it works. So treat the customer as best as possible, you know, treat them how you want to be treated. I've had experiences going to tattoo shops where it's like there was, there was this fantasy idea of what it was going to be like and it was fucking horrible, you know, like, and every time you, I look at that tattoo that's what I think of, you know, like I didn't even care if it was what it was or how it turned out. I just couldn't wait to get the fuck out of there, you know, it's not about you. Just put the customer first, let them get what they want and walk out the door happy. Put a smile on their face. That's the only thing you should be focusing on. All the rest of it is absolute bullshit. All the clicks, groups, sponsorships, conventions, invites, none of it matters. It's the one on one with the customer. Focus on the micro and eventually you'll have the macro period. [01:34:36] Speaker B: Hell yeah, man. Awesome. Well Ryan, this has been an incredible conversation. Thanks so much for your time. Anything you want to say before, before we close off, just thank you very. [01:34:45] Speaker A: Much for having me, man. [01:34:46] Speaker B: Hell yeah, you totally rule. So hello from Monica and you know we'll be in, we'll be in Calgary in the summer, so I hope to see you soon. Everyone will see in the outro. And Spencer, drop the beat.