Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Everyone, welcome back to the show. Dirk, welcome to the show.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:00:06] Speaker A: Heck yeah. All right, for the uninitiated, for those who don't know, who are you and what do you do?
[00:00:13] Speaker B: It's always a difficult question. I am initially a hardcore kid who played music for a long time and that didn't end up being a career for me, but it's always been a passion and it's kind of influenced everything I've done since, you know, 13.
Now as a 50 year old man, I have landed in music management and it was obviously a very windy road to get there as I think everybody's path. When you start in kind of a do it yourself world, mine being punk and hardcore specifically, I think you just figure things out. It's not a very standard kind of ladder climbing exercise.
You kind of take any opportunity that comes your way maybe between touring or whatever is your primary passion. For me, it was playing in a van and we did van and trailers for a lot of years, but then had to do everything in between.
I was a booking agent when I was home for a little while. I worked at MTV for a little while. I, I painted houses, you know, and as I was in bands over the years, I became kind of that default point person.
And even before you give it a title like, okay, you're kind of the tour manager, you're also kind of the booking agent, you're kind of the business manager. Before you even know that these roles exist in a larger sense, you assume them out of necessity. So I, you know, played in bands a long time and, you know, ended up working some office job. And you get a phone call.
A friend of mine named Darren Doan was working with an artist named Zach Brown from Zach Brown Band. And he called me one day and he's like, hey man, would you ever be interested in being like this country musician's assistant?
And I think I was driving to work or something, you know, in my office job, hating it. And I was like, man, I don't really even know how to process that question, but I'm open to anything, you know, it's not, it was music related and what I was doing currently was like a real estate job between things.
And so I was like, yeah, man, I'd love to meet him.
And so my friend Darren actually flew me to Atlanta to see a Zach Brown Band show. And the following day Zach and I had lunch with Darren and we, you know, did the 30 minute introduce yourself kind of conversation and we stayed in touch over email. You Know, I flew back to, I was living in Orange, California at the time, flew home, went back to work, and we stayed in touch over email. And he was kind of like, man, I've never had an assistant. I'm like, that's cool, I've never been one. And he said, if you want to give it a shot, you know, come out and try for two months.
So I quit my job, moved into Zach's basement, and we just started developing our working relationship, our personal relationship on the fly.
I got the job two months later and moved my family out and we were in Georgia from 2010 to 2025.
We moved to Nashville in March of this year. And over the course of my time with Zach, which was 13 years total, I just became a student of him. And it was kind of one of the only jobs that brought my more kind of Jack of all trades background into focus.
It was like, okay, I've seen all of these elements, but maybe not at this level.
And I always joked that in music, the only difference between the kids in the van and the larger artist on 12 buses or whatever it might be is the amount of people and zeros.
And I think that that's really true in a lot of industry.
As you grow or scale, it just becomes a larger budget and more people, but the basic functions and necessities are all the same.
And so I got to see music at a much higher level than I ever had before and just became Zach's right hand guy. Became kind of a communicator for him and a facilitator.
And over our time together ended up kind of, we called it a lot of things. Over time it was ended up being either chief of staff or CEO because he had a bunch of other businesses that we also ran. And through all of that we had gone through some management changes. And he brought management in house where he was basically his own manager. But I ran the in house management team.
And so my kind of trajectory to management wasn't something I didn't set out to do that at the beginning. It just kind of, it made sense bringing all these random skills or what I thought were random skills together over time. And currently I work with a management company called M Theory and we, our clients are actually managers. So we provide management services to a manager who is growing their business and maybe doesn't want to partner with a larger company or have to hire, you know, three to 10 people depending on the size of their business.
We can help a manager scale and provide a team that helps with all of the kind of ongoing marketing and day to day business kind of stuff as well as providing specialists and DSPs, social strategy, touring, tour marketing, E comm, CRM and audience development. Like we have specialists in all these areas and so we can kind of come around a manager and become their built in staff really and so that then they can scale at their own pace.
[00:06:29] Speaker A: Dude, I have so many questions, but let's go to the most basics we've had.
You know, we've had musicians on the show, we've had booking agents on the show, we've had managers on the show. And I always love to go to like the most basic question for someone who totally has heard it, but doesn't really understand.
What does an artist manager do? Like if you are managing a band or an artist, what does it actually look like?
[00:06:55] Speaker B: I would say that you are coordinating essentially and primarily the needs of an artist or band or whatever it may be with all of their various team, whatever that looks like. You know, for a smaller band, they obviously might have a smaller team, like using a larger artist as an example, just to kind of delineate all the roles.
You know, there's probably a booking agent, an attorney, a business manager, maybe a social media team, maybe there's an outside marketing partner, there's potentially a label or distribution partner. And so I would say the manager's role is to make sure that all things are firing all the time.
And so you're coordinating all of these outside endeavors, you know, making sure the tour is booked properly and then there's a budget and you know, there's the kind of siloed business tracks. Like for each thing there's merch, there's recorded music, there's touring.
So you're kind of making sure that all of these people are working in concert while still focusing on the primary personality or personalities of the artist or band. You know, so whatever their primary need is on a Tuesday, you're focused on that first, but in the background you're making sure that all of these other people are kind of functioning together to build that artist business.
[00:08:32] Speaker A: So I know this would be different for each individual situation, like for each artist or each band, but just from a generality, like what are the, what are the skills or the traits or the attributes that a really great manager would have?
[00:08:49] Speaker B: These are going to sound like generalities and I'll try and break it out to make it a little bit more specific. But I think that the managers that I see operating at the highest level realize what they're good at and more importantly what they're not good at and then lean on the people that are.
So it's about realizing that you're helping maybe guide this ship, but you are shoulder to shoulder with a larger team and allowing each member of that team to do what they do best and what their specialty is and not mess with it.
Make sure that it's all happening, but allowing them to do what they do well. I think the best managers allow people around them to do their job at the highest level, including the artist.
[00:09:42] Speaker A: Okay, that was my next question. Like, how much?
Again, I know it's going to be a little bit different from situation to situation, but what's. What's the line that a manager needs to take in terms of doing what the artist or band wants versus what they think is right?
[00:09:58] Speaker B: My personal opinion is that you're always executing what the artist wants while being honest about your opinion of that decision.
So I think it's your job to support the artist and give them as much information as you possibly can so that they can make the best decision, you know, but sometimes the best decision isn't necessarily financial or something that, you know, furthers your career. Like, there are so many little decisions along the way in being in a band or being an artist that I think that that's a bit subjective, but it's based entirely on the artist and whatever their goals and, you know, their story is. And that's different for every single artist. It doesn't matter what genre or the size of your band or whatever, your story is your own and how you want to tell it and what your goals as a band are, are entirely your own. You know, some bands just want to make a living, and they don't want to get past a certain threshold because that has all its own complications.
And some people are just trying to get as, you know, as big as they possibly can. You know, I mean, I think it depends on the band itself. And then I think the manager has to take in that vision of the artist or band, and then you have to help them, you know, create the bumpers. Like, this is the lane we're going to stay in, and these are our goals along the way, and then these are the things that we have to check off to get there. And then you have to constantly be doing a temperature check, too, because that can change.
[00:11:42] Speaker A: I.
[00:11:42] Speaker B: At any given point you're dealing with. It's not just a business. It's a human or humans, you know, and so that it's not just about, like, growing the bottom line or something like that. Like it would be in some other industry. This is, this is someone's art that they care very deeply about.
And then you have someone's life, not just livelihood tied to this because it involves time on the road, time away from their family. Like there's so many things that factor in that maybe don't in a normal business or corporate structure.
And so I think that you should endeavor to always do exactly what the artist wants while providing them all the information that you can. Pros and cons and like pretty simple decision making stuff. And it's just like if, if you want to achieve X, these are the logical steps to do that.
But if that's not as important or that vision changes along the way, then we'll do something different. I think the best managers are really in tune with their artist.
[00:12:51] Speaker A: What about. So, you know, you're talking about the rest of the team and this is, I, I, you could correct me if I'm using the wrong way of looking at this, but if I was looking at like an organizational chart, it would be like the artist, the manager, and then the rest, the rest of the team. And the rest of the team would be like kind of peerish level, but they would work through the manager and the manager coordinate that and then they'd partner with the artist. Does that sound about right?
[00:13:15] Speaker B: Yeah, the, the artist is president or CEO, owner, whatever title you choose.
And then, I mean, the manager has to be above some of those people just in kind of communication flow. I think the manager is actually more likely up here with all of those other functions because they all kind of have equal importance, especially at like a larger level.
And that was kind of the way I always viewed it. Like, I never even really called myself a manager. Very often I kind of said like, hey, you know, I head up this management team or I'm part of this team. Like I really lean into that team part because that's what I enjoy the most.
Like I, I'm not great at every aspect of digital marketing or you know, insert some other specialty. And I'm really grateful that other people are experts.
And so what's fun for me is putting together the puzzle pieces of like, you know, this particular publicist maybe is going to really jive with this artist because that's a relational thing.
It's not, oh, this is an excellent publicist. This is a successful artist.
That relationship should naturally work well.
Again, music and the business of music is all based on personalities.
And so the right fit for one person could be the exact wrong fit for somebody else.
And that's what I like. I love putting a team together and seeing how all the pieces fit and then coming up with a strategy for how to build that artist career and reach their goals and tell their story more than anything because it's songs or stories. And I think that the artist's life and career is just a larger kind of representation of all those little stories in those songs.
[00:15:17] Speaker A: Yeah. So what about like, how does it get managed or dealt with when you've got all these different team members or like vendors or whatever we're going to call them, and they have conflicting priorities, conflicting, you know, ways of getting things done? Like, what role does the manager have? Let's say like the booking agent and the merchandiser don't get along, or the booking agent and the marketer, or like people doing the marketing or any of those combinations. Like, is it up to the artist to be like, hey, I'm not having any of this, or does that fall on the manager or is it somewhere kind of like in between that?
[00:15:50] Speaker B: I think it would fall somewhere in between that. I think it's the manager's role to make sure again that everybody kind of has their eye on the prize of the larger goal. And if there were any kind of conflicts along the way, it would be the manager's job to address it, but communicate it back to the artist. And if the artist had a specific way that they want it handled, then that would be the way the manager should function.
But I think kind of in just like a day to day operational kind of thing, that's a big part of what the manager does, is you assess all of these different personalities and make sure they function regardless of maybe the things that they're not as strong at or where they don't, you know, jive with other team members or something like that. Like, I think that's a big part of a manager's role.
[00:16:42] Speaker A: Okay, so, you know, again, because you come from punk and hardcore, that idea of like, if you do it yourself and you're doing everything, you've got your finger on the pulse of how things go and that they represent you in like an authentic way, in a real way. And like it's, it's every single thing, like a T shirt or whatever you do is an extension of like what you believe in and who you are and all of that, it would seem, and totally correct me if I'm wrong, the bigger you get and the more people involved, it's really hard for an artist to keep that level of connection to the pulse of like how Things are done. I want it done in a way that represents me. So, like when we're talking about getting like big, big, big, and there's like a bunch of people, maybe even a bunch of people you haven't even met.
How, how can like an artist, like and like a manager work to create that? Like, oh, no, right down to the smallest thing. This is actually how you would want it done. Maybe you don't know about this thing, but I would make sure that you get it's done the right way.
[00:17:42] Speaker B: I think that that's communication at its core.
And so if the artist can clearly communicate to a manager or whoever is in that trusted role of kind of sharing information, if the artist has a really clear vision about what they will and won't do, down to T shirt designs, what blank, they prefer all of those things.
If that's communicated well on the front end, you should only really need to do a check in or check back if something is going to change, you know, if the artist is going to approve all the designs or all of those things. And that just depends on the artist. Like some artists don't really care about their T shirts.
Some artists like care like want to know what kind of ink is being used, you know, and then there's everybody in between.
And so I think if that artist has communicated to, you know, I know team can be a dirty word in music too, but I don't know how else to say it sometimes.
But if the artist is communicating to their manager or team, whatever that may look like. Well, if they have a very clear vision of how they want everything from what rooms they want to play in to what kind of catering they want or whatever it may be, if the artist does a good job of setting that up on the front end and being really clear about what they want to accomplish and what their expectations are, then everyone else should be able to execute really clearly.
[00:19:19] Speaker A: Oh yeah. So you'd mentioned you were you work with Zach Brown up until this year, but 23. Yeah.
[00:19:27] Speaker B: Yeah, I worked with Zach for 13 years.
[00:19:30] Speaker A: For 13 years. All right, so then you, you took on a new role. How come?
[00:19:35] Speaker B: I, I created a role that was very difficult to change at a certain point. Like the job that I created with Zach continued to take on responsibilities. And this is entirely pointed at me. I wasn't very good at offloading things and so the job just kind of grew exponentially. And I have a 10 year old daughter and at the time I was just kind of like, I really enjoy work, I love it. I love Zach. I love the band, but I do want to be able to be home more too.
And I was, I. I was at every show. I was in the office all week. I was with Zach quite a bit.
Again, not necessarily because of some expectation. That's just kind of the way that I had defined the job and that's the way that I thought it could be executed best, was to kind of be all in all the time. That was my personality. And I kind of had to step back and say, I don't really know how to change this now. The only thing I know how to do is to kind of step away and maybe redefine what I'm going to do to make space for everything else in my life. And so I had zero plan.
I left that job and I knew I wanted to stay in music. And actually the reason I'm familiar with M Theory was because we had hired them when I worked with Zach.
And so I was also a client of theirs and they were some of the first people I talked to after I left. And we were just kind of like, whoa, we'd love to work together. We don't know what that role is, let's stay in touch.
And so we did. And I consulted for an artist I managed, another artist, and kind of always had M Theory as a component because I had valued their input working with Zach and just realized how much value they added regardless of the size of the artist I was working with and just really enjoyed working with them. And I enjoy their core values and who they are as a company and all of those things. So. So I'd done a few things on my own and then we kind of developed this client relations role where I'm able to come alongside M Theory's current clients and kind of share my perspective and kind of look a little bit more long term to develop their business.
Well, you know, you're constantly being challenged with whatever the artist's day to day need is. And so like as a manager, you're kind of ping ponging all over the place and then it's like, okay, there's an album coming out, like there's all of these marketing deliverables and stuff like that.
And sometimes I think it's hard for managers to pull up and think about not only their artist career, six months, one year, five years plus down the road, but the manager's business.
And so it's been really cool for me to have conversations with other managers. And it's not like I have some brilliant wisdom to impart.
I just have my own set of experiences that I can share, and hopefully that insight will help Another perspective. I've always seen any good working relationship, regardless of it being in leadership or otherwise. I think it's all based on really strong relationships and trust.
You know, you have to get to know people before they're willing to share kind of not only what they're good at and what they want to accomplish, but more importantly, maybe where they need help. And that's something that I've always tried to do at every step of the way, is just be like, you know what? I don't know how to do that. Let's go find out who does.
Let's rely on, again, this other expert that we work with to come up with the best solution for that.
And I think that's where, relationally, that team as a whole is never stronger than when everybody is firing to the best of their ability.
[00:24:13] Speaker A: Do you mind if we go back to that decision to leave working with Zach?
[00:24:18] Speaker B: Not at all. Not at all.
[00:24:19] Speaker A: Interesting that you left with.
Left with no plan.
So talk. Like I want to hear.
Like, how long did it take you to realize it was time to go? Like, was it snap or did it build over time?
[00:24:33] Speaker B: It built over time, but not a long amount of time. I had, after 13 years of basically living together, obviously, Zach and I had become very good friends. And so I could speak pretty candidly with him. I was at a point where I wasn't sure exactly how to change it.
And so I have another few mentors that I've leaned on over the years. And somebody suggested, like, why don't you take a leave of absence or take a sabbatical?
I was like.
Never even occurred to me I can do that.
And it's like, I don't know. You can ask, right?
And so I had a conversation with Zach, and I was like, man, I'm just feeling like it's grown to such a point again, by my own doing, like, this wasn't him. By my own doing, I had created this job that I now didn't know how to manage the rest of my life and my relationships. And that was something that I had done to myself.
And so I asked. I was like, hey, man, do you mind if I take, like, six, eight weeks or something and take a break? And he was super supportive of it.
And so I did.
And I wasn't very good at taking a break. That was a really uncomfortable time for me.
I didn't know what to do. I took a trip to California to visit some friends.
Hadn't had a Chance to play music in a long time. And so I had started hardcore band with some friends and was able to go out and play with them, but I was kind of just left alone with my thoughts the whole time.
And I didn't come up with a, this is exactly what I want to do next.
But I knew it had to change and so kind of thought like, well, what if the job kind of changed to focus more on this as opposed to some of these other things, and maybe it could get parsed out a little bit differently.
And that just didn't end up making sense for me or for him, to be quite honest. And so I left.
[00:26:46] Speaker A: Did he try and talk you out of it or was he totally supportive?
[00:26:49] Speaker B: He didn't try and talk me out of it at the time. No.
I think. I don't know that he fully understood. And I can't speak for him, obviously, because I think he would have been willing to do whatever was necessary for me. But just for me personally, I had crafted a world that was all or nothing. It was like, this is the way this particular job looks to me, and if I can't do it 110% that way, I have to look for something different.
[00:27:19] Speaker A: What was that like, emotionally leaving?
[00:27:23] Speaker B: It's tough.
I mean, this type of work is a little bit, not a little bit, a lot more invested maybe than going and working at a bank 9 to 5.
This becomes your whole life, your family's life, because it is so relational and there's so much time, whether it be on the road or whatever. It's a big investment of time for you and for your family. And so their relationships that you build are a little bit different than maybe normal working relationships. And I think that that's something that anybody who's involved in music can relate to. These aren't just co workers, these are friends. These are people that you share life with. And so that was tough.
There were a lot of people that I consider great friends to this day that were a part of that job.
And separating kind of job from relationships.
[00:28:28] Speaker A: From.
[00:28:30] Speaker B: Personal wellness and gratification, that's tricky to do. And I think it's something that I'm still kind of processing.
[00:28:39] Speaker A: I was going to ask you that because when someone. So not just this situation and not just in the industry you're in, but when anyone has a job that's like, all consuming and you're like, I really like how you said it is like, I don't know any other way to do this job. I have to be all in and Maybe someone else could do the job in a different way, but I can't do this job a different way. So jobs that are all consuming, when people leave them, sometimes they have to kind of rediscover or reestablish who they are without that job. Did you experience any of that?
[00:29:11] Speaker B: Absolutely, constantly.
You know, and as a jumping off point from that and just to kind of follow up, that was a very good, concise assessment of what I had said. You know, again, it wasn't that he had some expectation for me that I needed to meet. He would have been, I'm sure, welcome or open to any number of suggestions. It was entirely me.
You know, I just want to reiterate that, you know, it was, it was the expectation I had set for myself and it was the job that I had built for myself at that point that it was like, you know, I built my own little box I wasn't sure how to get out of.
But again, yeah, my identity, my relationships, my professional kind of trajectory was all defined from that job. Like, that was one of the most meaningful and kind of career defining jobs that I've had, at least up until that point.
And so kind of figuring out who I am apart from that job is something I'm still working on.
[00:30:30] Speaker A: Okay, share something with you about myself, like that kind of relates to this.
[00:30:35] Speaker B: Absolutely. I've talked a lot. Please feel free to jump in wherever.
I would love to hear about your trajectory as well.
[00:30:44] Speaker A: Well, yeah, totally. Well, just to add something in, when you were talking about that, that two months you took off and you're like, I don't even know what to do.
My wife had to teach me how to take vacation.
And I'm not kidding. Like, I have been.
[00:31:00] Speaker B: Still don't know how to do it.
[00:31:03] Speaker A: It's so hard.
Like I, I am in such an all in person in like every single thing I do. And a friend of mine was just saying the other day, it's like, you know, you're just like, you just. Everything you do, you just do 110. I'm like, yeah, like, I mean, I just don't, I don't know another way of doing it.
When I met, when I met my wife, it was in a time of like, just a lot of.
It was, it was during COVID It was a lot of times, like reflection in my life, you know, all that kind of stuff.
And we just had a different kind of relationship than I'd ever, ever had with someone which grew, like, grew from there. Like. And it really is, it's like this defining relationship. Like, my wife's the most important person in my life and one of the. Yeah, she rocks. And we'd done a lot of like vacations. Like a little weekend here, a little weekend there, I could manage that. But the first time we went on like a European vacation together, we went for two weeks. And I just, my brain, like I had a meltdown. Like, I was like, I need problems to solve and I need to fix things and I need to be moving and I need to do this. And she was like, we're literally in the south of France. We are in a villa that's like right along the ocean. And we're like, it's beautiful, sunny. Can't you just be? And I was like, you have to tell me how to just be. I don't even know what that means.
Even last or even this year we went. So we go every year to the same place. I'm getting better at it now, so I'm starting to get it. But there's always some moments of like really having a hard time just being. Just because I'm such an all in person. So when you're, when you're talking about that, I was like, yeah, man, I, I, I. Maybe that's a punk and hardcore thing. Maybe that's a personality thing. Or maybe it's just people who are just like hyper focused to getting things done. It's just like a trait that goes across industries and across like subculture. Maybe it's just more of a trait, but there is a little bit of like, if I'm not this, who am I? And, and that exploratory work, I'd say for me has been difficult, but super cool. Now that I'm getting more comfortable with it.
[00:33:13] Speaker B: That's awesome. That's encouraging to hear because I struggle with the same thing. I mean, I worked all the time, but even when I wasn't technically working, I was available.
And that's the way that I wanted it to be and wanted to be available to work for, for him and the band was to make sure that I was kind of always connected.
And again, the work life balance argument that has become kind of a hot button over the last few years, I think is it's really personality driven.
No one's job is forcing them to do X, Y and Z necessarily. It's how you respond to what you see the expectations being.
So that's entirely your responsibility to the point that if the expectation is more than you think it should be, you can leave.
And people, I don't think People realize that that would definitely be something that I've struggled with over the years, is just, I'm doing this, and I'm going to continue to do this because it's what's expected and kind of just having blinders on for whatever the work at hand was.
[00:34:36] Speaker A: It's an old saying from, like, recovery work, like addiction recovery work, is that people only change when the pain of staying the same becomes more than the pain of changing.
So, like, you know, for example, like, someone's like, oh, I don't want to go find a new job. I'll just sit. Sit here and be miserable, blah, blah, blah. But it's like, well, at some point, that pain becomes more. That's where people change.
And also, pain doesn't have to be like, I hate my job or this or that, but just like the dis. This dissatisfaction of life.
[00:35:06] Speaker B: Right.
[00:35:07] Speaker A: You know, before I started. Before I started Cadence, I was working at a company where, you know, I made the most money I'd ever made in my life, and it provided a level of comfort. But I was the.
One of the most unhappiest I'd ever been in my life. And I really was just sitting in it. I was just sitting in it and sitting in it, and it's like, I could have quit that job at any time. And that job was really the source.
Not the source, but a primary source of it very specifically, like my boss, the work. It was just not a good fit. And it got to a point where really, it was like, why am I staying here? Oh, because the pain of staying there had not yet gotten worse than the pain of changing. And when things changed, it was, like, crazy and hard to start my own business. But then it was, like, amazing on the back end. And sitting in that. In that situation for a long time really geared me to be like, I am never going back to feeling like that ever again.
[00:36:03] Speaker B: I relate to that a lot, but for me, it was slightly different, because boss was great, community was great.
It was the way that I functioned within it that was not great.
[00:36:16] Speaker A: Well, sometimes we're the problem.
[00:36:18] Speaker B: Exactly. And that you kind of have to swallow your pride a little bit to even acknowledge that.
You know, you kind of always are looking for these external things to blame, but at the end of it, it's like you go, okay, well, these have been my decisions all along, and I'm choosing to function in this way or relate in this way. So if I want that to change, then I need to change. And I think that that's hard to do.
You know, I think you referenced punk and hardcore and for me I think that it relates back to that because it's that whatever it takes by any means necessary to figure something out attitude in punk and hardcore and diy that kind of fosters that, like, I'm going to keep going forever, you know, like no one's going to be able to stop me. I'm going to figure out how to do merch, how to tour, you know, in a hatchback, or how to go to Europe, you know, when I'd never been there before. Or, you know, I have something that is really important to me that I want to say to people. So I'm going to figure out how to make my own records. I'm going to figure out how to share that message in this music with as many people as I possibly can. You know, you don't call it marketing because that's a dirty word, but, but that's all it is. You're just trying to share it with as many people as you can.
Yeah, and I think that that attitude of just like, I'm going to grind it out and figure it out, that is kind of just a given in that community of punk and hardcore. It's like I'm going to figure out how to print a zine or, you know, I want to participate and so I have to find my own way and then I have to execute it. So there's that like personal drive in the midst of this larger community, which I always thought was kind of cool about punk and hardcore is there's an individual identity, but it's something you're doing with a bunch of friends that are at least similarly minded, if not like minded.
[00:38:34] Speaker A: Well, since we kind of transitioned to that pretty easy.
Tell us like, like I'd love to hear a, like, how'd you find punkin hardcore like ish around what era? Like, how did you find it? And then tell us about your, your bands growing up.
[00:38:50] Speaker B: I grew up in Long Beach, California and so skateboarding was kind of a natural thing to get into. And I guess it's hard to pinpoint the moment because kind of the music is a background to that culture a little bit. And so all of a sudden I think that you're at least aware of punk as like a soundtrack to what you're doing or the older kids who are into it or whatever. So somewhere around 11, 12, 13, you know, like, oh, you see stickers on people's skateboards or T shirts that people are wearing and maybe somebody has, you know, a stereo at A skate spot or something like that. And for me, it was kind of the logo bands initially. You know, it's like you start listening to Dead Kennedys because you've seen the sticker or TSOL or Sex Pistols or whatever it might be and realized pretty quickly that I enjoyed the music for sure. And then, you know, you go through your own kind of discovery. Like for me, finding like a band's bad album. Like, I didn't know TSO well had a metal era.
You know, I'm. I'm 12 years old, I just saw a sticker. I go to the record store.
[00:40:14] Speaker A: Oh.
[00:40:14] Speaker B: This is the TSOL record.
[00:40:16] Speaker A: Cool.
[00:40:17] Speaker B: Wow. I didn't know they all had long hair, you know. And you buy revenge and you're kind of like, this is different than what I expected. But in a weird way, that's still a favorite record of mine. Because you didn't have every album at your fingertips at the time.
[00:40:33] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:40:34] Speaker B: So this is 88. 89 is when I'm getting into like punk and hardcore.
I had an older friend that used to drive us around skateboarding who I ended up actually being in a band with.
But he had found punk and hardcore from metal and so he listened to everything.
So I wasn't super stringent when I first started listening to music. You know, I got into thrash bands at the same time that I got into punk, that I got into hardcore. And then all of a sudden you start deciding for yourself.
And I very quickly, my community at shows became straight edge kids. Like I was a straight edge kid all through high school and beyond.
Because that's where I realized that there was a community that went along with this music. And I'm skipping steps, obviously, but I think I was going to shows by 13 for sure in Southern California at the time.
I saw a few of those larger shows at the country club.
And then Spanky's initially would have been our club and Shane would have been like kind of in their heyday, like second seven Inch.
So, you know, you had like instead no for an answer.
And who else would have been kind of the more established hardcore bands at the time, like in Southern California?
And then, you know, Chain is kind of established as well. And then Outspoken and all the other bands that were putting out demos at the same time.
My 15th birthday show was Chain of Strength. Outspoken and end to end at Spanky's. Like, I remember my dad driving us to that show.
[00:42:28] Speaker A: Oh my God.
[00:42:31] Speaker B: So I grew up with, you know, we would meet friends at shows and so I grew up with kind of like at the same time as the Strife Kids too.
And so we were all at shows together and, you know, played shows together.
You start setting up shows at churches or, you know, whatever venue you can get a hand on. Obviously you're from the same scene as I am, so you're familiar with that. But, yeah, had shows at my house. And just my trajectory to playing was I had a couple buddies that were into music, and it was like, hey, we're taking guitar lessons. You should play bass and we'll start a band.
Like, okay. So they just handed me a bass and it's kind of like, this is where your fingers go.
And I always joke, you know, nine albums later and, you know, 25 years of my life is kind of just a more developed version of this is where your fingers go.
I never really, like, leaned into lessons or theory or learning how to read music or any of that stuff.
Like, I kind of just took that. This is where your fingers go and did it for a long time.
So I played in a band called Focused, which is probably the first band of note that I was in.
There had been bands prior to that. I played in a band called, like, junior high high School called Blindside, which morphed into a band called Life Alert, and then joined Focused kind of towards the end of high school.
Those earlier bands got to open. You know, we opened for Chain. We opened for the Offspring before they were big at, like, a backyard party in east la.
But they never. We never even really sold a demo tape or anything. But then when I joined Focus, they had already put out a demo and I was a part of the second demo. And then the two records we put out on tooth and nail. And that was kind of my first experience with, like, recording at a high level and then, like, putting together artwork and a layout and, like, hearing how it turned out, caring how it sounded, and then like, okay, this is now a tool to go play shows outside of Southern California.
And I apologize. I feel like I've been talking a lot.
[00:44:59] Speaker A: Oh, man. It's just. It's so.
It's always cool to hear people's story. Like, I mean, punkin hardcore has, you know, it altered the direction of my life. Like, I don't. There's no way I would have made it. I would never have made it to 50. Well, I'll be 51 in a couple days. I would never made to 51. I don't even think I would have made it to 30 without it. And I'm not even talking about just straight Edge. I'm just talking about, like, knowing how I think and how I acted when I was young is like no way I would be on this planet without it. And also it's like, it helped me discover so much about myself. But also there's so much stuff that I do every single day in my job that I did not learn from being a therapist. I did not learn from being a business owner. I did not learn from X, Y and Z. I literally learned it from selling T shirts out of a van, like playing shows like that's what. That's where I learned this thing. And punkin hardcore is just like a fascinating culture in general. It's really, really cool. And of course there's like the negative sides, like everything. But I always love hearing people's stories and I love hearing about Shane. Although I'm a Uniform Choice slash instead guy. That's like, that's my west coast hardcore, those two. But I love it.
I have a lot of love for Shane.
[00:46:15] Speaker B: I got to see instead quite a bit.
Uniform Choice had already kind of jumped the shark. Like, Screaming for Change is a super important record to me, obviously. But I never saw them live, even though I would have had the opportunity kind of at that late 80s era.
They had already put out a record that nobody liked at that point.
And so I never. I never went to see them, but instead played a lot.
I just missed the Youth of today. Bold Judge Jane, like that big show in 88 at fenders.
I'm a young kid at the time and gang Activity was a real thing in Southern California. And so we heard.
I heard Suicidals and Lads are going to all meet up at that show and it's going to be a bloodbath or whatever, you know. So like 14 or 13. I don't even. I would have been 13 at the time. We're all like, I'm not going to that show. You know, we're terrified. We're just kids, you know. Turns out it was one of the most memorable shows in Southern California for kind of that, like, Youth Crew era. I didn't get to see Youth of Today until two years ago.
[00:47:36] Speaker A: And you know what? Still got it.
[00:47:38] Speaker B: Killing it. Still so good.
[00:47:42] Speaker A: I'm going to say something that might be controversial, and I'm only talking about what would be considered youth crew. Hardcore Instead is the best youth crew hardcore band of that genre from the west coast of all time.
[00:48:01] Speaker B: I'm going to say something more controversial.
I think they're the only Youth crew band of that era in Time.
Because if you Think about it. Even no for An Answer wouldn't have considered themselves part of that scene.
My very first show that I ever went to, no for An Answer Instead, Infest and Visual Discrimination and then a couple openers I can't remember.
But no for An Answer and Instead would play together a lot. But obviously they had kind of different executions, even though musically they would have been similar.
[00:48:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:48:40] Speaker B: So I don't know that there's another youth crew band from Southern California besides Chain.
And they kind of. They didn't necessarily.
They. That was kind of a different execution, too, because Instead is the only, like, born of uniform choice. Youth crew band.
Chain was kind of born of New York hardcore.
[00:49:02] Speaker A: Yeah, man.
[00:49:03] Speaker B: So trying to be, like, identified as a Southern California hardcore band and also part of that youth crew scene. Instead's kind of the only one.
[00:49:14] Speaker A: So Chain is like a Boston meets New York kind of style. Like, simple, simple stuff, but kind of, like, rougher and harder and all that. Instead are punks that play hardcore. Like, they're still punk in the. In the center. And, like, that's why I think. That's why I think Instead is so, like, universally revered. Because it's like, at the heart, they're a punk band that plays hardcore and, like, really, like, great hardcore. And, like, Kevin Stead's vocal patterns are kind of like. They're weird. Like, they're all over the place. It's like. But then when you get it, you're like, oh, like, that's kind of brilliant. It's not cookie cutter.
Everything's so sincere, but not, like, corny sincere. You're like, oh, no. Like, these guys are actually about that. And if you know those dudes, they're actually still about it all these years later.
[00:50:01] Speaker B: Like, absolutely.
[00:50:03] Speaker A: Instead, and specifically will make the difference. We'll make the difference is like, for me, people can list a lot of other 7 inches. They're all great. Like, whatever. But, like, if I'm gonna say, like, what's a 7 inch that I can today listen to and be like, this is.
I have to listen to this all the way through. I can't just be listening to a track like, this record gives me chills, still will make the difference. But all the records rock. And I am a huge fan of. Of everyone in that band.
[00:50:29] Speaker B: That's awesome. Yeah, I. I feel lucky to have gotten to see a lot of those kind of seminal shows. You know, it would have been.
The 7 inch era is kind of when I was, like, actively buying records, going to shows, and so, like, kind of experienced it in real time and, you know, would have been a part of the conversation. Like, was the jump to Epitaph like a good move or a bad? Like, all the silly conversations that don't really happen anymore. But back then, it seemed really important to me and my friends to have a discussion whether they should be on Nemesis or Epitaph.
[00:51:08] Speaker A: Well, and shout out. Shout out to big Frank, man, R.I.P.
you're missed.
[00:51:14] Speaker B: I was just listening to the podcast that Dano did with Joe Nelson and Lisk and Ron Conflict about, like, prior to the Big Frank memorial.
And it was crazy. Like, I mean, that's my first record store experience was being a terrified kid who had ridden the bus an hour to Zeds with a friend of mine. We're already into the music at this point, but we had never gone on our own to, like, go buy a record.
And so, like, to walk into Zeds and have Frank behind the counter with zero context of who he is or what type of human he is was one of the most terrifying moments of my life.
Completely unfounded, you know, and so we're me and him, we, you know, each have enough for one tape. And so we're deciding, and this is like pre hardcore. This is like we're just again, looking at stickers.
It was like, okay, you get Earth ad and I'm going to buy this RKL record and we'll just copy them so we both get them. You know, I'm like going up to the counter and going, like, is this an okay tape to bag?
But, you know, and he could not have been sweeter. And then, I mean, Zeds became where we hung out every single weekend. You know, whether we were had the money to buy records or not, that was just the hub.
And Big Frank was such a huge part of that.
I, to this day feel like it's Frank's store, even though it was Mike's store.
[00:52:49] Speaker A: And you got this guy that was a kid and was changing people's lives and creating these. These memories for people and just did that through his whole life. I'll just say I only knew him later in life and just really, we just would message each other through social media.
Wonderful guy. But I grew up with the legend of Zeds and Big Frank and Carrie Nation and all this stuff and terrible loss, for sure.
Stay tuned for part two of this interview next week on One Step Beyond.
