M.A.D. Tourbooking: Pioneers of Hardcore Punk & Metal Booking

[00:00:00] Speaker A: It brought the people together. It brought the people together because you have to really bring on simple things. There was no way you could have large discussions about anything. When we started the business, we said the handshake matters. Until now, we have no contracts. If the people, the other people fail, and that's their problem, we go through it. Our contract was always our work for the bands who understand, appreciate, they never left. [00:00:29] Speaker B: That was a clip from today's guest, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Today's interview is one I've been waiting a long time to do. So we're in Europe and I could have done this long distance over Zoom, but it's just not the same, especially with my friend that we're going to speak to today. Anything that you can imagine becomes an industry. Like there's nothing, that's not a job. In many ways, I always laugh about it, because if there's someone who's going to figure out who, if someone's going to figure out how to turn something into a job and turn to something into an industry, it's always the punks. The punks always find a way. Today's guest is someone who started something small and it's grown into something that I think is culturally significant. This is an awesome, awesome interview, and I really believe you're going to get some good stuff out of it. Before we get into it, please rate, review and subscribe to the podcast. Especially subscribe. It makes a huge, huge difference. I appreciate it. My name is Aram Arslanian and this is one step beyond. [00:01:48] Speaker A: Mark, welcome to the show. Hi. [00:01:50] Speaker B: Okay, so for the uninitiated, for those who don't know, who are you and what do you do? [00:01:55] Speaker A: I'm Mark from mad tour booking in Europe. And we basically doing worldwide tours with basically punk and hardcore bands, metal bands. It everything belongs to that kind of subculture around it, to scar, to whatever we feel is right. That's what we do. [00:02:13] Speaker B: This is a big topic to crack into. Let's start just in the most general way. So for people who aren't involved in music or aren't musicians, what does someone who is a tour booker do? [00:02:25] Speaker A: We basically organize for bands the possibility to come over to Europe, or like South America, whatever. And then basically we organize the shows, help them to get mostly a lot of bands know, the vans, the back line people would drive, merchandising, whatever they need, you know what I mean? To make a tour here. So our intention was from the beginning that they basically just have to. A european band goes in a van, but an american band, for example, goes to the plane, you know what I mean? Comes over here and everything is arranged. And they can concentrating on art and message, whatever, playing music. [00:03:04] Speaker B: So it's kind of a bizarre industry to get into. So how did you find this? [00:03:10] Speaker A: We stumbled in there. I basically came from the punk scene in 78. 79, right? And one of my friend was one of the starters, basically of the underground shows over here in like 79. Eightyes. [00:03:25] Speaker B: And where did you grow up? [00:03:26] Speaker A: Where was Berlin? Always Berlin. [00:03:28] Speaker B: Always Berlin, yeah, 78. 79. You find punk rock? [00:03:32] Speaker A: Yes, because I growed up with the first wave of like hooligans and punks. It's all my neighbors in the projects where we grew up. So I was a kid. I was a young kid at that time, like how old? 1211. Right? But I was almost the same size. And they always took me with them. It was a different time. I mean, the 70s was the time where we've been more free. You could go to shows or cinemas. You can't anymore. You have to show an id. Back in the days ten years ago and watching zombie movies in bikini cinema. And I grew up with them. So they showed me basically the songs, you know what I mean? I hear the music. I came already from Sweet Slate, Trex. We had already the music. We had their live atmosphere. We had their students demonstrations in the. You've grown up between that sound and the energy and the politic. And then became overnight this punk thing. And for us as kids, it was like, that's it, that's us, that's our time. We do it. [00:04:38] Speaker B: What were those initial bands? [00:04:40] Speaker A: Sex Pistols, clash, the damn champ, 69, the first row. I mean, when I got the Sex Pistols first, I just listened to 24 hours before I go to school. I didn't sleep even the whole night. Just put it on, put it on, put it on. You know what I mean? Cut all my hair. Because at that time it was still the glam time. You had long hair, you wanted to look like sweet or tea axe or black zabbard, right? So overnight I took a scissor because, hey, do it yourself, right? I heard that already. So I cut just my hair off like I think, like a punk rocker should. Look, my mom got in heart attack in the next morning, opened the door and the whole place was wrecked. Because pistols made me wrecking everything, you know what I mean? And punk was born basically, you know what I mean? Difficult time. And he'd been so young. Anyway, at that time. Anyway, a lot of people say that it's the time where punk still was dangerous and not a trend. A friend of mine just came out of jail and was punk infected in jail. He came more from the political side. And when he came out, he said, so we squat a place and we do punk shows, we build our own thing, right? And he did. I was not involved in this. I was around it. I mean, it was like the 70s already, but the 80s was very strong. People just squatted. Houses, buildings, apartments that were abandoned. Yes. And the whole point was we have like this politics, we still have, you know what I mean, that people like getting houses that try to wreck them to get money from the government, making even more money, rising the prices and back in the days was the same game. But back in the days, the generation, they squatted the places, they said, no, you're not making your luxury buildings. We repair it and it's ours. That brought a lot of problem with the police right away. But we had in Berlin, like times where there was almost 200 buildings squatted. So there was no chance anymore to get the people out. [00:06:30] Speaker B: So when people would go in and squat something, it wasn't legal, but it wasn't quite illegal either. [00:06:37] Speaker A: It was full illegal. It was fully illegal, fully legal. [00:06:40] Speaker B: Then how could they not get you guys out? [00:06:42] Speaker A: Well, first of all, they have to find out it is. And second, the most important, there has to be somebody who gives the police a record and says, hey, I want my building back or I want the room back. So most of the time these people don't even know it's squatted because, I mean, they're far away. Some banking, whatever, with like three, four different connections through certain islands, you know what I mean? So till they find out it's squatted, it's maybe too late. [00:07:09] Speaker B: And then what does it mean for it to be too late? Because some of these places have been squatted now forever. And they're like legendary venues because of. [00:07:16] Speaker A: The problem and the rights with the police and the people. There was like really bad rights. Certain neighborhoods like Freutzburg was probably one of the famous in the world for this. The police even had no say anymore. If they wanted to squat, kick somebody out. There was overnight like hundreds, thousands of people out there throwing rocks, shooting spills, whatever, on the police. So they had to go out like Molotov cocktails, everything. [00:07:41] Speaker B: So they would just say, you can just have the place, we're not going to do it. [00:07:44] Speaker A: No, but they had not really the chance to get everybody out. Certainly they try and sometimes possible, but at a certain time especially, they couldn't get the people out. And then the politic thought about finding a new way that calls the Berlin way. And that means they're meeting with squatters and they try to get the problem out of the political problem, and they legalized it. That means they made contracts with the squatters. If they got the building, as it has by german law, in correct version, with toilets, baths, electricity, whatever, they get it. [00:08:23] Speaker B: All right, so you and your friends, or your friend goes and squats a place and gets things. [00:08:27] Speaker A: No, he squatted a place. [00:08:28] Speaker B: He squatted a place. [00:08:29] Speaker A: He said, this is very good for club shows. 500 capacity or not was not even 500. I think it was like 300 or something. 350 the first place he did. And they just squatted and said, we do shows here. This is our place now. We call it KZ 36, and we do the shows. [00:08:47] Speaker B: Amazing. All right, so that's your intro into it. Then what happened since? [00:08:52] Speaker A: Like I said, I grew up with the people who've been a little bit in the first row and the ones who, for some people, maybe the troublemakers. He thought the best would be getting me on the door on shows. My friend circle is not the problem for him anymore. And it worked. He told me this, like, probably ten years later. We're still friends, we still talking, we still doing business. He went to be one of the biggest in the music industry, I think, for years, for every kind of music. And we're still working on certain projects together all the years. Yeah. [00:09:26] Speaker B: So you and your friends were kind of the issues. Like, you were kind of the troublemakers a little bit. And he was smart enough to say, what if I just make you guys security? [00:09:34] Speaker A: No, just me. The other people didn't care. He was even too afraid to talk. But I was hanging there. I was a young kid. I like the music. I like somebody's doing something. So he said, didn't you want to do security on my show in front of you? He was like, yeah, hell, yeah. I get money for it. Great. [00:09:51] Speaker B: All the problems go away because you're doing security. [00:09:53] Speaker A: Kind of, yeah, okay. [00:09:54] Speaker B: You're involved. Like, this is just your entry point of kind of being involved in music. [00:09:58] Speaker A: And then what happens in the punk rock music? Yes. Well, and then basically we saw the problem. What we all saw, whenever punk was successful, at a certain time, the bands had to make a decision because they couldn't make a living from what it was organized. And they went to the industry we had. It was Generation X, Billy Idol, Clash, whatever, right? And the next wave in the 80s when. When we basically starting getting into it was the same problem. All the english punk bands started to going into the metal broke up or playing metal music. This shark, perfect example. So that was very difficult because we thought like, you know what? This. What we're thinking is our life and we want to change the world to a better place. Cannot continue this way. Because how we do it, it's nice as a hobby, but will not be creative to create a real scene more seriously, where we can change things, where we can build possibilities and option and 82 me and my girlfriend at the time, Utah, right? We starting doing on our own shows. And that means, I mean, we are still both working together. Till now. We are not a couple anymore, but we're still working together. This is med, right? But back in the days, nobody wanted the name. I mean, we didn't care. I mean, that was the time of like nobody know what he needs heroes, right? So we just did it. So we've been known as Mark and Utah from Berlin. And we did all the shows, the international shows, the shows and squads in the universe or certain places. And more and more bands been always saying like, hey, you've been connected to everybody. You know, everybody. You always tweeted why you don't do the tours, right? And then we basically just started at one time and did a european tour. That means why I stumbled in because we both been not looking at this is our job, right? Because there was no money to make. You never could survive with this handful of DIY shows we did back in the days. And also with the touring, there was no option. We always had sideshops the whole time, especially in the beginning. [00:12:05] Speaker B: So when did it become mad booking? [00:12:10] Speaker A: It started to be in the end, in the little bit difficult for us because from our squad shows we still did, right. It turned up to be the scene, especially in Berlin, very big. That means most of our shows had like thousand to 1500 people or a lot of shows up to 2000. When we did Fogazi, for example, or no means no, we did it most in the university. We had up to 2000 people, right? And also the hardcore bands getting more and more feedback, verbal assault was very famous. Social unrest, all the first breeds. So we had the feeling that the industry in Europe got a little eye on us because we've been somehow successful or more successful than them. We builded up a whole network. What really works, what really was a big conquering to the music industry. And at that point we said, you know what, we have to legalize ourselves at the second time. We also feel like it was more and more work. It was no hobby anymore. It was not the network of friends anymore. It was like serious work. I mean, everybody called us to do something. We had the full time job, but not the income. So at one time we said, you know what? We start with a thing. We legalize ourselves. So we sit together in the office and usually there was like always people hanging because while living room, right? And we've been always hanging there with ten or 15 people in the night. We said, all right, tomorrow we legalize ourselves and we will be company. And one guy said, oh, why? Do you know what, you have to have a name. Then we said, oh, we have a name. All right, what name? And then we all sit there and hang around. And there was a song in the background and the guy was screaming like, make a difference. And somebody said, make a difference. Great name. And we said, oh, we call ourselves make a difference. And we've been like, no, because if we exist more than a year and nothing really changed, and somebody said, think about, you can do it for ten years and then you still make a difference. It's like, no way, no. And we said, you know what? Let's call mad. That's great. That's us. We are crazy. We're the crazy ones. The people were, people always been happy when they're coming to their cities, you know what I mean? So we call us mad. And we've been like, no, there's that magazine, the fancy mad. And we said, oh, then we get legalized. Trouble with them. You know what just makes points in between called mad? And we said, all right. And then we went next morning, we said, we want to be a company. Here's our company name, mad. And that's how we started. So it has no real meaning. What we didn't know at that time, at least we know, but we didn't thought about it because we've been so in our Howard hardcore and comic world, finding the name Med is the name for the military secret service in Berlin in Germany. So we had the same name as the military secret service. So we got calls from the cops once in a while, then want to know from us if that band is a right wing band who's supposed to play there. And I always told them, I said, we are not the mad. We are mad. And that's how Matt to booking got involved. And to booking was under Matt at one point. [00:15:21] Speaker B: All right, so what was the first, it doesn't matter if they were european or if they were from somewhere else. What was the first real tour? [00:15:31] Speaker A: You booked. I think the real first tour we counting as a full real european tour was with Di from California. And we booked it right away. Two months. Two months, no days off. [00:15:43] Speaker B: So was it totally smooth and easy or was it really. [00:15:48] Speaker A: Yes, there was no problems. No problems at all. Packed places. The only problem was Di came over, saw the first venue and I've been like, oh my God, this will be a disaster. It's like 1000 capacity. This is like way too big. And I said, our label told us that will be no success because we're only selling 100. Couple of records here. And we've been like, no, you're very big over here. And they've been like, but we're not selling records. I said, maybe you don't get the right numbers, but that's different. I think after the 7th show, the band figured there has to be more records here because on the first three shows they had already more people coming and singing along than they ever sold records in Europe. And then the tour continued. One and a half months. [00:16:29] Speaker B: Wow, man, how did they find you? [00:16:33] Speaker A: We had a person who'd been basically hanging around here with bad religion and he organized the first bad reliction tour with a friend of us or a person we know back in the days, let's say. And he basically, us and them got right away in contact. And he did in America tours for hardcore bands, bad religion, agnostic front, verbalist, sold all these kind of bands. Got this face in front of me but not the name. And he stayed then with us because most people stayed with us in our apartment back in the days. And then he came, turned around, he said, you know what, the last tour didn't work. Well, I mean, you know what I mean? Why are you not doing this? And we said we could. He said, I got the eye, I get Agent Orange, they all want to come. And we've been like, no problem. You know what I mean? And then he basically just did it. In the meantime. We've been always in America because in the mid 80s, Europe was a little bit in one way. The european scene was not getting forward, bends falling apart because of the problem. And the English been actually metal or broken up and everything was oriented to the american arco side. So I always flyed over to America, to New York or San Francisco, was hanging around in maximum rock and roll with Tim Johan, did the interviews on Maximo Rock and roll radio, you know what I mean? Been in conversation with them, been in conversation with the New York people or know, or Boston too, with Mike Gitter back in the days when he did the magazine. And then basically we had this contact already. We met all these people and everybody was, we want to go to Europe. It's so big in Europe. It's so great in Europe. So it was kind of like him. And then basically also the connection. You've been all over and you met everybody. I think I was on the first rehearsal when they recorded the first song with Operation Ivy when this whole lookout thing started. Because from lookout it was a good friend, we stayed with him and Dave and MDC. So we've been all there when this whole Gilman street lookout scene started and met everybody on the first steps and whatever. So we've been very like all over the place. [00:18:40] Speaker B: So you take this leap, you start this thing and say, okay, we're going to do this. And you're saying it like you're totally confident, like we're going to make this happen. Did you have any fear, any doubt? Or were you just like, this is going to work no matter what? [00:18:51] Speaker A: We had a lot of fear, a lot of doubt. But at that time we didn't. Because first of all, we've been young. Second, we had the idea to change the world and organize a network and that was our mission, what works. So the bands we're working with, because in the early eighty s the whole punk and hardcore thing changed. At that time it was the individual, you were the punk, you were the hardcore guy. Your mentality, your ideas, your heart, your way of living. But in the mid eighty s, the music is the key. The bands and the music, like the pop and rock industry, it was music. And the individual didn't matter so much anymore. So we said, all right, if the music now is the communication point and everything is about music, we have to make sure this music can survive. The bands who want or have to do it professional, I said have because at that time it was a little bit difficult. But a lot of bands been touring America, South America, Europe, back to America, maybe Asia, you know what I mean? So it was a full time job. It was sure they have to make a living from that. And at that time it wasn't really that view. Most people said, oh, no, entrance, you know what I mean? It's like, yeah, €5 we are all diY. Diy means play for free. But we said, if these guys are the key and everything of the network is music, we have to change it and walk over the edge between commercial and our thoughts and our beliefs or the ethics. And that was actually when we really started with mad. The tours that was really our concern to professional. Basically, whatever was wrong at that time. That means making real structures. Make sure the bands are not sleeping on floors with no windows anymore. You know what I mean? They're getting beds up to better statements. Hotels, apartments, a lot of clubs. Professionalism in the same way. And organized real apartments in the venues. We wanted to make sure that when they're coming to a venue. There's welcome catering, dinner, drinks. They don't need anything because they're driving sometimes like six, 7 hours or 5 hours traffic jam. They had no time to find something to eat. So everything has to be there. So we started basically with the catering, the drinks, the dinner, the accommodation. To make sure this happened. And then the next step was basically to make, financial wise. Basically working somehow over a bridge. That they come home and make money to make a living as a job. So there's no difference. And still it's so underpriced compared to the commercial side. That it's still kind of like the ethic and the beliefs we had on the beginning. So we always walked in. I mean, it worked, right? I mean, it's the biggest network what built it up. [00:21:44] Speaker B: So before you brought over Di and before you started mad. What north american bands or what other international bands were coming over before that? [00:21:56] Speaker A: Well, the first american band who came over was Wayne county and Ramons. And I think Blondie played in Canquino in 78 and 79. That was like. Kind of like the first band. But Wayne county was a little bit difficult for most people. But here in Berlin, people loved him. Because he went also to places where we've been. So he was a person you can touch. The music was never really my cup of tea. Maybe two songs. Ramons we all loved, right? But they look different than us. And they had this ragnarol edge. But we all love them anyway. Blondie was for us always from day one, kind of like more new wave, but that's kind of the thing. And then after them in the 80s, dead Kennedys. They brought minute men with them. And really quick afterwards, black flag, bad brains. The guy I mentioned before, Carl. He was the guy who brought first over the all american bands. He licensed them here. After he did the squad shows. He professionalized them too. So he was before us with a professional view. And started a record label. To be the biggest punk label till now for german punk rock. When he found that as a one way, aggressive, rack production. And then he basically brought as a next wave for him. Like Peter Testew. Babies exploited english dogs. When these bands also played metal. He said, like, he went to America and he signed this could do black flag, negros, meat man, et cetera, et cetera. And brought all the bands over. Always wanted to sign bad brains, but it didn't work. But he did the first tour, and then these bands all want to be metal or indie. He stopped and he started to do metal. And then he turned to one of the big metal labels in the world with Halloween creator, whatever they called cetic Frost, whatever. [00:23:50] Speaker B: So when you started doing this and you did di that first tour, this is going to be obvious for anyone of a certain punk background. But it's like, this was like the. [00:24:02] Speaker A: Wild west, basically, 100% for Americans. You have to understand, we are not speaking the same language. [00:24:10] Speaker B: And there's no European Union. [00:24:11] Speaker A: No European Union. We didn't speak the same language. We had no cell phones, no computers, you know what I mean? So that means, like, you call up somebody in Italy, in Bologna, you know, the political side was working. You call them up. And half German, some words, English, a little bit italian. We try to both understand each other. We have this band that kind of like this. We have di. Oh, see? Di di California. Agrazia. He said, yeah, and 19th. 19th January, okay, 19th January, okay. And then he said, all right. He's like, what is this? And then you have to find out. Normally we have like, a calculator. So 10,000, 5 million lira, whatever, and say, okay, no problem. Food and accordation, boof shows booked, no contract, no sign or anything. And then you get a letter from them with like, a card. They photocopied the map, give you like, a little inscription and, like, the address. What we call now these days, writers, you just get the letters from everybody. Mostly the photocopies you can throw away because bad copy machines back in the days, everybody who growed up at that time knows you have a lot of photocopies. You didn't see anything afterwards anymore, right? And when they make a market on, like, they maybe know where they're driving, but not you. So we bought also, like, I think, million of carts all over from Italy, from the roads, from cities. We had a huge box from each big city. I mean, it's mostly the same cities we worked, right? So we have like, a huge box when it all was end at one time with the city maps from Bologna, Rome, Milano, Paris, Buffet. Because we always had to buy them and we always asked the bands afterwards, please don't throw it away. Give it to us for the next band, right? So we always had to look in the box, like, which tour we do, which study, and then we give all the maps. It was a wild west, no question, because also this is how we booked it. But if you got there, there was a culture shock. I mean, Americans, for example, at that time, mid eighty s, the most bands were Americans who start touring here. They eat breakfast, proper breakfast. Canadians probably too. Scrambled eggs, whatever. Italians don't eat breakfast. You get an espresso and if you have luck, a croissant. So now you have the Americans in the morning coming. Know when they slept for her. Where's the breakfast? Oh, right there. There's coffee, something to eat, eat. What do you want to eat? The breakfast? And so some Americans, these people want to fuck us, you know what I mean? Same in south France, same in Spain, Germany. The breakfast is also complete different. At that time. At that time there was in most, especially the north of Europe, no ice cubes, no cold drinks. That means the coke or whatever. Most bands been drinking coke at that time. It was just like, know, like the normal room temperature and the like. Do you have any cold coke? And being said ice cube, you drink the drinks cold. Europe, nobody drink cold at that time. So there was a lot of like culture clash, you know what I mean? You have to communicate with hands and feet to make yourself. But it brought the people together. It brought the people together, because you have to really bring on simple things. There was no way you could have large discussions about anything. You have to trust them. And it worked. [00:27:58] Speaker B: At what point does mad become your primary source of income, like how you make a living? [00:28:06] Speaker A: I think it was very quick. I think a year after the first proper tour with Di, it switched because we had just 24 hours job, people calling us 24 hours for everything. It was very successful. The idea we had to work a network, but at that point we didn't thought about. There was not so many people to feed the network. But now we had a club system built who was ready for the network too. And they needed shows to continue, because everything was about continue, right? So that was a little bit the problem. Because people who went with us back in the days, they faded a little bit out because the new wave of like black flag government issue they could deal with. But the next wave who came verbal is sold agnostic front Di. That was not their type of music anymore. Because they went with Fugazi and no means no. And they wanted to be a little bit more. They started to divide the scene in boxes and genres. And so they were not with us at that point anymore. And that means we got so many calls, so many people asking us for help and do something. We had to do full time job. And there was no time anymore. [00:29:24] Speaker B: Because you had mentioned earlier, kind of like so many bands, let's say discharge, for example. It's like you kind of hit a point where it has to kind of become your full time job. But a lot of those bands, and we'll just use discharge. They changed. And maybe they changed because maybe they wanted to do something that was more commercial. Or maybe their tastes just changed or whatever. But you have these bands that people loved and were just like, this is the band. And then they put up the dreaded metal record or the dreaded new wave record, SSD. And people make this change. And that happened time and time and time again in the 80s. How did mad, when you started doing it professionally, like, making your money, stay true to its roots and stay like punk hardcore with the ethical side? [00:30:10] Speaker A: Well, first of all, if these bands changing so drastically, they also changed the network. And they've been out. So there was not even any room for us anymore. Because we've been for them then more like something they had to get out of instead. Like continue what was a big mistake for them. Because we built it up at that time. A su great network. They could maybe survive even with a change. Because the tolerance on that side was very big concern to, like, the other side, the commercial side, where you have to give the people what they want and not what you like to play, destroyed them all. I mean, there was not the first band says Billy Idol went big and Clash went back. But everybody else, if you're looking at. There's not a big list of a discharge either. I mean, they fall completely down when they did the metal one and changed the voice. Same with all the flag, you know, who cared on the end what they did there, you know what I mean? Or SSD, a legend. When they brought up this how we rock, everybody was know, what is this? You know what I mean? Then SSD was not the legend anymore. [00:31:15] Speaker B: I gotta tell you something. I gotta admit something to you. I love how we rock. Shout out Al. I love how we rock. It's a great record. [00:31:21] Speaker A: But you know what? Same here. I listened to it and I liked it. See, because at that point I understood already that my ideas from the past. Because I hated really clash when they brought out London calling, right? Because I thought, like, that's we are so and so. I thought, still the band. I own the band. [00:31:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:42] Speaker A: But I understood very quick at the time. In the 79, eightyes whatever. I understood it's not the way the band can do what they want. And so more they do what they want, so better it is for us. And that's not the point. What people saw at that time. [00:31:59] Speaker B: So how did you stay true to what you were about as you became financially dependent? I'm just going to give you an example. Of course I know you know bridge Nine records. Chris Ren said to me once, when I was younger, he never drew his income from bridge Nine Records. He always drew it from his t shirt company, Sully's. I said, how come you don't live off of bridge nine? He said, the day I start living off bridge nine is the day I have to start making choices based on what will sell rather than what I like. He's like, so I'd rather draw my money from somewhere else. You're in this interesting place because you started doing a thing that was based on what you like, but also you're bringing these bands over, and they have to do well financially. So it's like that kind of weird balance of, it's like, it's what we like, but it also has to do well. So how did you stay true to your roots while also doing good business? [00:32:52] Speaker A: We are not business people. [00:32:54] Speaker B: Tell me more. [00:32:55] Speaker A: When we started med and we started to be successful, and everybody thought, oh, the big company, the rich guys, we did in the night, mostly jobs. I did a lot of years in the same time. When we did in the daytime, the booking I do in the nighttime, security on shows or whatever, we glued posters. Professional wise, we had a company even basically with friends, gluing posters for everybody, for all the shows, t others in Berlin in the nighttime. So in the nighttime we did it. So we are not good business people. If you look at that point, because we never looked at our account. We just did it because we wanted to do it. And if we need money to live, we just did more work to make it happen. And if that doesn't bring us the money, we did some other jobs to make the money to do what we want to do. And at one point, we figured we had money made. We don't need to do the postering in the night anymore. We don't need to work on construction for like two, three weeks in between or whatever. We make enough money that the frigidator is full and we can pay the bills. And we've been satisfied that way. So we continue to now to do what we actually want to do. That it went very successful, and a lot of bands been loyal and continued with us and shared basically our ideas. We still have to do what we want to do and don't care first about that money. That band doesn't bring me any money. We think about this band until now can bring something for the scene. This is really still our thoughts. We finding bands. We said we can do this. And we know that when we have a certain artist, a band, we have a certain message, certain music who's a little bit different, something to say. And we can make this band going around in Europe. It will help the scene to bring more value and open the doors again for people to do more again. Instead just copying themselves or feed the people what they want to hear. What basically hardcore these days for most people too. Bands don't doing anymore what they want to do, what they feel they do. What basically people want to hear in the world is successful. And that's why we have so many no name bands always or young bands we working up because there's no money to make. I mean, nobody would do this, you know what I mean? If it comes from that perspective. But the lucky side is we have so many true friends bands who basically just continue for years to make it possible that we still live the dream to change it. [00:35:31] Speaker B: Is it too far to say that you were basically the first organized booking, independent booking agency for punk and hardcore? Or were there once before you? [00:35:40] Speaker A: I mean, there was definitely once before somehow. But if you look at the fact right now of the history, I think we are the longest as his thing. [00:35:49] Speaker B: Okay, so you're the longest running one? [00:35:51] Speaker A: Yes. [00:35:52] Speaker B: And you were one of the first? [00:35:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:54] Speaker B: You're part of something that's kind of like first or second wave of people are like, we're just doing it because we believe in this thing. And you've been the one that's lasted the longest. [00:36:02] Speaker A: Yeah, because we are not business people. Right. Everybody else stopped because they find out they couldn't make any money. And that's why the club changed, the promoter changed the bands. If you look at it, it's not about a certain part of history. Bands stopping playing. It has mostly the cause behind it. [00:36:20] Speaker B: So at one point though, people who weren't a part of that first or second generation, they start their own booking agencies and competition starts. How did you feel about that? [00:36:31] Speaker A: We never saw it as competition because back in the days when we did it, we've been all friends. I mean, when I said before we drove to San Francisco to hang up with guests from maximum and change. Ally, usually it's like us and three or four different bookers these days you would see as competition. But we've been all friends. If you put it down, we can't feed this big market anymore. It's impossible. It's impossible for one, three or two agents to feed this independent market and help all the bands that would be completely out of control. So the competition is there these days, and it's probably very bad and probably the worst ever. But in reality, if you take a deep breath, there's enough room for everybody. There's enough. What could help? But mostly, if you look really deep into this, you see very quickly by the bands. Most of the agents, they want only the fame, the big income. They don't care about groundwork or whatever. The people who could do groundwork normally suffer so much that they stop after a certain point. But in general, there's enough room. I mean, there's enough labels to release a record. And if they can't, you do it yourself. These days even. No problem. There's so many venues one band can't feed that you need all these bands to keep this whole alternative network we call hardcore, parkour, whatever, alive, and you need more people. So I don't see there's competition. The only thing is, like, if they start to jump into your business and try to convince bands to change, move over. Because on the other side is the green greener. You know what I mean? But that was not back in the days. This is now. Because now, these days, there's missing the attitude, there's missing the spirit. Now it's like a commercial business. Because some people don't walk on the edge, they're on one side. [00:38:35] Speaker B: So from when you started to now, it's definitely become like a thing. It's a huge thing. So much so that mad, despite you saying we're not good business people, you're a real business. [00:38:47] Speaker A: Yes, we are. [00:38:47] Speaker B: How many people work at mad right now? [00:38:50] Speaker A: It's seven, probably. [00:38:51] Speaker B: Okay, so you've got seven full time people? [00:38:54] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like six booker and one in the office now. But it changed. We had before three people more working in the office, but also there. It's like coming and going a little bit the last years, and with a new network system, we build it all a little bit different, especially after the pandemic. [00:39:10] Speaker B: And at some point you have kids and you have a family. At what point did you have no other jobs? Only mad. [00:39:19] Speaker A: How old were you when that happened? 1990. [00:39:22] Speaker B: 1990. [00:39:22] Speaker A: But when I had the night job. So without the security things at night probably be till end of the 90s, end of the. That's when we stopped basically doing jobs beside. [00:39:35] Speaker B: So like kind of before the 2000s is when it became. [00:39:38] Speaker A: But I had to admit we didn't have to maybe to do this anymore. But for example, the security service over here in Berlin is like run by political people from the autonomy scene, hooligan scene, martial arts scene. It's all our friends and circle. Anyway, so a lot of times I'm not drinking, so I'm not like the drinker or drug guy. So sometimes they called me up and said, do you want to work with us? And me and my wife and. Yeah, sure. And then you work with your 25 friends somewhere, you know what I mean? Hanging around in the night and get still paid. Yeah. You know what I mean? So that gets a little bit in the bloodline. So we did it a long time and I did it, maybe not anymore because I needed badly the money, but I stopped it the day when the first son was born. [00:40:21] Speaker B: And you have two sons, right? [00:40:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:23] Speaker B: So your job is like, we were talking about this earlier, part of your job is going to shows at night and then doing this real grueling task of organizing everything, get anything going. How have you managed to balance a family and your professional life? [00:40:39] Speaker A: Well, first of all, you need a second partner, you know what I mean? Who's there for you? And my wife, Bianca was working always in the background of med as well, from bookkeeper to whatever. And then she basically took off and was just there for the kids all the time. And, well, it's like every father, you're working, you're coming home. For me, it's definitely a little bit more difficult because I call it always a two side face or two side things you work with because you've been at home and I'm a father, not like acting. That means you've been at home. You bring the kids to bed when they've been small, you're reading the novel, you fall half asleep too, and then you've been watching a lot. Oh, shit, in 30 minutes, I have to be on stage. Six of it all playing SS 86. Kid is sleeping you tree, sleeping out. You dress up, you drove to the venue, you know what I mean? You've been in a venue, people flying there, and it's like crazy. I still have been in a dreamland with dragons and dwarves, you know what I mean? And see sometimes the sweaty people and anger. Until I've been there, the show is already over, you're driving home. That was a tough time. It was a very tough time because you're living in two worlds at the same spot. [00:42:01] Speaker B: How old are your kids now? [00:42:03] Speaker A: 20 and 80. [00:42:04] Speaker B: Are they involved in punk and hardcore at all? [00:42:07] Speaker A: Yes, they like the music, they love the pians. They've grown up with it since they've been. I think. I think the first birthday for my son was on the know. I think the first birthday was. We've been on the festival altogether and since that point they've been always around on shows, whatever, worldwide also martial arts. [00:42:26] Speaker B: Is a big part of your life. [00:42:28] Speaker A: Yes. [00:42:28] Speaker B: So when did that start? [00:42:30] Speaker A: When I was 14. Classic boxing. [00:42:32] Speaker B: And then how did it develop from there? [00:42:34] Speaker A: Well, we continued with. I at least continued with classic boxing till I think early, like in 84, whatever. We tried to combine because some people found us that muitai. So we tried to combine that and doing our own kind of like street level fights, you know what I mean, by mixing everything together and then basically always continue with classic boxing, more or less. And then I always took other things in from whatever. [00:43:04] Speaker B: So how did you find that balance of just like doing mad, having a family, doing martial arts and taking care of yourself physically, but also just enjoying life. There's a lot of stuff to be spread across. [00:43:17] Speaker A: Yeah, but I mean, this is my life, you know what I mean? So I have no other life. I have no other hobies or anything. So that's just. I don't know, it's like that's just the life that I'm living. [00:43:31] Speaker B: You just made it work. [00:43:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:33] Speaker B: So going back to building this thing up when punk and eventually hardcore starts really developing in Europe, there's also this backdrop of. There's still some ideas of fascism out there and that kind of enters into the scene a little bit through not just here like in northwest. How did you both, as a punk and just being part of the scene, but also as a business person confront that and deal with any of the kind of more extreme and the fascist, the racist, homophobic attitudes, how did you deal with that? [00:44:14] Speaker A: Well, I come from the anarchist background, political autonomous. In Berlin we've been known black mass fighting with the cops, whatever. So for us it's a part in our DNA to fight and fight against all these things you mentioned fascism, racism, sexism, whatever. And we did, we always did and we've been known for doing it also Europe white and we've been connected Europe wide also with our groups, from antifascists to whatever persons who basically did it. And that means whenever we see that coming or know it happened, we drove up to make sure it doesn't happen. Or we have the connection to make sure it doesn't happen. And we've been fighting for them for years. We get like on lists for it by the right wing people. We've been known for it. They trying to fight mad, try to infilt, certainly press systems to make us look bad, making bands who stand up against right wing, you know what I mean? Like agnostic front, for example, look bad. And so spreading fake news. That was even back in the days possible. And back in the days it was as bad as now. Because if a fancy imprinted something, it was black and white and there was no chance to say sorry. There was no chance to say, this is wrong because it just spread it, you know what I mean? And the demo was done. No, but we always stood up. We fight for it. I mean, that is our real problem. [00:45:41] Speaker B: Anyone who's involved with any kind of artistic pursuit, you could be like a painter or a writer or whatever, knows that a lot of artistic people can have kind of extreme personalities and can be quite difficult. And when it comes to punk and hardcore, although it might have a hard exterior, you can have some people be real babies about stuff and they'd be really tough to deal with. So how have you developed the ability to work with artists for so long and keep the wheels going? [00:46:11] Speaker A: I think, first of all, we are all a little bit crazy and that's why we can do it. That's why we're even doing it. And back in the days, whatever the people call old school, whatever, these people have been all crazy. Nobody would play in a punk or hardcore band if there wouldn't be something crazy or mad about him. So nice. He looks so nice. He is crazy somehow. So it was the crazy people who find themselves to make something happen. And it worked. It was a network. It was perfect. We had all the same enemy. It was easy. So we all came together on this little points who have been important. But you mentioned before, like antifascism, racism, sexism, whatever. Mostly under government, anti government, whatever. We all didn't care. I mean, do what you want, you know what I mean? We had people who have been very violent. You always had to stop because sometimes overdo it. You have people who've been doing whatever, like crazy things, even more crazy things. And it somehow works. I mean, we all had the same language back in the days. There was not the craziness we have these days. Attitudes, attitudes came in the like, attitudes. [00:47:30] Speaker B: Like the fragile artists, the people with the big egos. You still got to work with them up to a certain point. [00:47:35] Speaker A: And sometimes it's very stressful. I mean, if you have a band we know in America plays in a van in front of like 120 people a night, if even, right? And makes like a couple dollars. And then they're coming over here and the shows are 500 people. They got a hotel. They get catering dinner. Then you got a call from these people at like one in the morning because they had your number, right. I need a second pillow. And he went, what? I need a second pillow. I only have one pillow in the hotel. I said, are you crazy? Is it. You mentioned it? Yeah. Said, where are you? And he's like, bologna, italy. Are you crazy? You call me at one in the night to tell me you want a second pillow? Said, why? You just go down? I can't speak Italian. You know what I mean? You have these kind of people. [00:48:26] Speaker B: So much of what you're talking about is like when it was small, you made it work because it was hard to communicate. But, you know, you all believed in the same things and it was small, super purpose driven. But then real money comes in and real fame comes in and real things and you're still an alternative to the commercial stuff. But especially now, hardcore is bigger than it's ever been. And not just hardcore, lots of forms of music and there's wonderful, amazing people. But there's also those moments of real difficulty and real challenge. So how do you handle it as a business person, a guy in the world, but also someone who knows what it was like back in the days? How do you handle that? [00:49:05] Speaker A: It's difficult for you. You know what I mean? You hear it also from the older bands. Who doesn't want to play with the so called harcour bands of today? Because for them it's not the harcour bands of today. For them I hear it a lot of times they're saying like, that's the people we hated back in the school when we've been punks. And when we started hardcore, we started against them. And now these like tricky, nice cut guys been dancing on stage, playing hard music, throwing some lyrics, but acting like middle crew. You know what I mean? So it's really an issue. But it's split and divided because, see, there is not the same course behind it. There is not the same spirit. Most of these bands are here for the success. They want to be successful bands. They want to be rock bands. They're doing whatever they can to be successful musicians. Hardcore is mostly for a lot of bands like that is stepping stone and then immediately these days, because the network is so big, it goes so quick to be on a big level. You have already the industry coming in, or alternative industry, whatever to get you. The record deals get you, the managers get you, this whole procedure behind you who influence the structures, and they don't see what really happened, that they've been out of the network, don't even help the network actually damage in that way. The network that's basically difficult to deal with. But usually a lot of these bands are going a separate way fast too. [00:50:47] Speaker B: So at some point, if someone has a successful business of any kind, no matter what it is, or a successful band, no matter what it is, people love you in the beginning, especially if you're doing something that provides a service or a space or whatever it is. And then they like it when you're initially successful, but then you get actually successful and then people are turn critic. And we see this time and time again with small businesses, startup companies, we see it with bands, we see it with artists, we see it with actors. There's that small time where everyone loves you, but then there's that middle time where everyone hates on you and they are so negative until you hit it like escape velocity, and then you become beloved because you've kind of pushed through that negative. When was a time where med started receiving a lot of criticism? [00:51:37] Speaker A: I think it started to be like mid ninety s. That comes the first wave. Like Med kills hardcore. Med is money making at that time. We still do side jobs. The guys who did the flyer, for example, I know the guys. We're all knowing each other now because after a half year, they growed up. Usually it's young people, they growed up and understood the world is working a little bit different than in their childroom at home, you know what I mean? And then basically, we are good friends. We're still good friends. Most of these guys went to the music industry working really for the commercial side. We are still the same, right? And that was a time, but that's mostly like jealousy. That's mostly like parts of just don't know how it works. I mean, that was the time we got hit, because we've been the guys who survived. We keep that going. We're looking great, we're looking big. Attack them. And that was the time when this whole DIY philosophy changed. And that was the issue. Because DIY means if you want to do something, do it. You think you want to play in a band, but you can't play an instrument. Play in a band. You want to do shows, try, do it. You want to do in shirts? Do it. You want to write poems? Do it. Nobody wants to read it, who cares? Do it. Just do it. Do it yourself. That is the whole thing behind it. But in the end 80s, especially ninety s, it turned around that the next generation maybe had didn't had the feeling there was no room for them. And they switched this whole DIY to basically you have to play to free, you have to get no place to stay. That means everything we worked on the network to make a surviving concept for the bands was switched. So you had the negativity coming from a scene who was basically news centers, government played rooms with social government networkers. And they do new show and call it the real hardcore show because they only need $5 interest because everything is paid. But these people are as quick gone as they come. And what they really leave for the scene is a damage because the negativity sticks on you. The negativity on as today the word di means for we are a DIY band. And I always tell the guys, and what is the other bands? They're not doing it myself. They have somebody writing in the songs. They're like, what is the opposite? You know what I mean? And then. But I was like, what do you mean? DIY means you play an instrument yourself, you write your own music. So what is the difference why you call yourself a DIY band? What do you think is the other side? Same with the promoters. The scene is alive because of the professional promoters, the guys who care. That's already what I figured very quickly in America with the places like Gilman street for example, you know what I mean? And stuff that basically they have a little bit. They're living a little bit in a dream world, right? What doesn't work here on the professional side? They had luck with what their setup was and did a lot of great job for Frisco especially. But it was difficult. I remember, for example, I was in the mid eighty s or whatever with Dave from MDC. I stayed with him and there was some fight breaking out there and everybody just stared at the fight and I was like, that's weird. There's a couple of jerk offs right there like hitting everybody, you know what I mean? With like gloves on and everybody just sit there like a big. Well for me, like almost sheep to go to the slaughterhouse, right? By bad luck, Dave from MDC got hit too by a state, by him. So I went in, I took the guys and strode them out the way I do it, right? And then outside, I've been just dancing in on me, like, yo, who do you think you are? Like three, four guys? The typical american way of finding, like, talking a lot. I just stood there and waited. You know what I mean? When somebody comes near and behind me was like a half curve Timmy hand, whatever they called. They just stood there. I turned around and looked like, that's not the way we do things here. I said, what are you doing? It's like these guys been ruined. The whole show, the whole night, and beating up people. Yeah, we call the cops. And I was like, well, why come? But we're not calling the cops. Even when I lose my leg, I don't call the cop. We're taking care about ourself. That's what I did here. And he said, yeah, we know you're different. Their background, whatever. So old school. But usually you shouldn't get in anymore. And the week afterwards, I got a phone call from them if I want work, to ask security, because that La band's coming up with certain gang mentalities, you know what I mean? Whatever. I will be there as a fan anyway. I said, if it happens, that's the way I am. But that doesn't work. You know what I mean? And this is like the problem with the youth centers, you know what I mean? We've been full government paid, and some people just doing shows there what is great, and it's important, but they have to understand it's not DIY or basically, it's as much DIY as the professional does it. But the professional keeps the scene alive. They're keeping it alive when it's not trend anymore. [00:56:41] Speaker B: It seems like early 80s, starting with, like, let's say, discord exclaim and then touch and go. All these labels kind of figured out how to do it looking professional, but still, like punk. Like, still diY. [00:56:58] Speaker A: Yes. [00:56:58] Speaker B: Like, packaging was good. [00:56:59] Speaker A: Everything was everything. [00:57:01] Speaker B: And they figured out how to come over to Europe or do good tours. And then, of course, that gets picked up by things like revelation or in effect, records. And everything looks really nice, and it's cool, it looks professional, but it's punk and hardcore. It's all diY. Jordan Cooper is still, like, stuffing envelopes is doing it, and then somewhere in the next wave revolts against that, like you're saying. And it's like people start freaking out about barcodes for ridiculous reason. And packaging, it's like, oh, we got to. They try and emulate what minor threat did with making the handmade covers, but they look like shit. They're falling apart? Is it that wave after wave after wave generations is the easiest thing to do. Look at the generation before you and revolt against that thing and try and do your own thing in spite of that. Is that why we find ourselves in that? [00:57:58] Speaker A: This is the biggest problem of what we call hardcore scene and hardcore or punk scene somehow it's for me the same. That's the biggest problem they have in every scene you look around. Subculture from the youth or political also the people usually gosh up is the wrong word, but you know what I mean. They have a lot of respect for the people. The pioneers, they're looking to them. They're not trying to take things away from them. They try maybe to do things a little bit better. But over here in the scene, it's like you said, it's revolving. They're always looking for edge. So basically you're not getting successful by doing something different, doing something new. You get it by successful by criticizing the people who did it before without knowing and knowing even, but for sure didn't care how difficult it was for them at that time. And this always breaks a part of our scene, keeps us always two steps back and we never make a step forward. We got more like a commercial scene there right now. We shuffle whenever a band is successful away. And the real bands, the bands who working, who've been on tour, who suffer, they somehow never get the spotlight. [00:59:12] Speaker B: I have lots of space for that idea. That part of when you're younger in punk and hardcore, not for everyone, but for some people, and it was for me, is to looking at what went before and critiquing it. Unless it's something like Fugazi or minor threat or something that's like escape velocity, negative approach. Like things that are just beyond reproach. But maybe the generation that came right before you, you're criticizing them because it's kind of the punk experience and going to something Walter said. When we spoke, when Walter was on the show, he was like, man, punk is like the most salty of scenes. Like it's the most critical of scenes. There's something I think that's kind of know, rites of passage, like critique the other people until you figure it out. And you're like, oh, actually they were kind of sick and that was kind of cool. And I've learned a lot. But one of the things that has always stood out to me about mad is you were there from such early days and you've grown, you've become bigger, but you've taken a lot of shit from people, but kind of stayed cool and just kept doing your thing. So how have you done that? Because punks are so critical of each other and you've gotten so much shit, but you're still like a really well respected, viable business that has done a ton. [01:00:22] Speaker A: First of all, we never changed. We keep the, as people say, true. So at a certain point, all the criticizers are gone. They're just gone. The damage is there, the talk they did, whatever rumors they spread, they're circling for the next generation to revolt. So you hear it like every three years again, but they're gone again. And we just, there. And the people who know us, we just got so much respect for that whenever something like that happens, you know what I mean? Usually we got the same support or even a stronger support, and we just don't. I mean, after all the years, you're just not listening anymore. Maybe in 94, whatever you've been listening to that bothers you, you know what I mean? But in general, afterwards, we don't even care anymore. Usually we look around the corner, we said, all right, in three years, they're gone. [01:01:12] Speaker B: So it's the long game. You play the long game. [01:01:14] Speaker A: Yeah. I also know a big, but it hurts. Don't kid yourself, it hurts. You sit there, you do all the things you suffer. You went through the hard days, you went to the name when it was not fame, you know what I mean? And then you get like, people criticize you for it. I got people criticizing myself, like, oh, you're not doing enough straight edge band just because you're not straight edge. And I look at myself, I'm not drinking and don't do anything since 82. I think you're not even born at that time. And he was like, oh, I didn't know. You know what I mean? Something like that. Or they criticize you for like, this is not all vegan. You should make all vegan because everything has to be vegan. Said, I'm vegan for almost 40 years. I said, what are you talking? I said, but I'm going to not walk around and tell people what they have to eat by forcing people. That's not my philosophy. [01:02:01] Speaker B: A big part also is like, I know with all booking agencies is artists coming and going. Like, they'll leave to the next deal, but then they'll come back when that deal doesn't work for them. It's the same with record labels. So how have you maintained relationships with bands when they jump ship and then come back? [01:02:17] Speaker A: The most difficult for us, that's probably a difficult part. For us, because when we started the business we said the handshake matters. Until now, we have no contracts in that world. We're living these days, the last 20 years, dumb as hell. But we still do it, we still continue. And we had million times we standing in front of a mirror and we've been like, should we? You know what I mean? And we're like, we just keep it now as it was the idea, the ground idea. If the people, the other people failed, and that's their problem, we go through it. Our contract was always our work. So the bands who understand, appreciate, they never left. And the bands who left usually and was not successful. There's probably like a handful of bands who been more successful because they left. And then usually it's like by Dropkick Murphy's, for example. When we had them, we had like, I think 2000 people a night already. There was no top ten record, there was no movies things. There was nothing. We connected them at that time. I brought them to the connect of the business, working like in the background to do the compilations stuff. They did convince them to take l Bar as a new singer because we did the bruises at that time. And I thought east may be the right choice. But then a manager comes in and the managers these days are not working for the bands usually, you know what I mean, with ideas or spirit. They just want to make sure their power is untouchable. And that means the first thing they have to do is cutting out every friendship circle labels. They usually can't because they have contracts, right? At least for one or two more records. Then they have to deal with it as it is. But usually they stay out of it and they work with a manager. Booking is mostly very easy. Look, if a band has a very deep friendship with us and trust and the manager basically has the feeling we know more and could say more to the band and how close is it they need to cut that know to make himself safe. This is probably one of the biggest problems we have these days. I will not forget when Dropkick Murphy's manager came over was brand new, first thing she walked up to said, yeah, I know we can't leave mad. I've been told billion times by the band, this is like the most important. And other bands have no. Me and Utah looked at each other like after the conversation said, oh, Dropkick Murphy's is gone. And somebody in front of us, he said, but she just said. And was like, that's the way they say it. We know the next couple of weeks she will start to cut everything off. New merchandising companies, new connections, label, they couldn't. They've been struck with epitaph and everything at that time, at least, you know what I mean? So then you always know, all right, that's the point. That's what happened all the time. Because these people are afraid. I mean, there's not so much to organize these days. You have a label who works for, right? You have to think, managers could do a lot of things, but they have fear. They have fear that you know more about them. What you tell the band that they maybe lose the job by the band, you know what I mean? That's why they're always, when they're switching, usually cutting. That's why you see, a lot of times when the band gets a new manager, things get changed. [01:05:38] Speaker B: But bands do come back after they leave. How do you handle that after feeling. [01:05:43] Speaker A: Like you keep the door always open? If we want to make the world a better place, you have to understand that people sometimes think grass on the other side is greener. And if they figure it isn't and they want to come back, we shouldn't have an attitude and we're just open. You know what I mean? First of all, sometimes, like shelter, for example, right? You went a long way with them. You had to help them so much against the anti straight edge propaganda and people who would try to fight them against then the shelter, the Krishna thing, the ignorance against them. So you went a lot of ways and stick and stones with these people, right? And when they leave you, it hurts, but it doesn't mean immediately you hate them. Right? Sure. Business wise, you've been like, fuck, man, I built it up, I did it all. And now somebody else comes. I always see kind of like a farmer. We are like the farmer. The bent is the seed. We make sure it grows well, give him the water, make sure we care at a certain time. It's very nice. And then every farmer wants to drive over our field. And now it depends if the seed says yes, you know what I mean? Or the seed says no, you did it, you know what I mean? And since we have no contracts, we are a little bit the idiots on the game. Everybody else is contracted merchandising record companies. Every time you have to sign contracts. We don't do this because we think if the band doesn't feel comfortable with us, what do you want to do? Like, work with somebody who's not comfortable with you means like a lot of stress and bad blood. You don't need either. [01:07:24] Speaker B: Before we started, we were talking about some bands. We're just having some fun talking about it. And one of the things I know you've been vegan for almost 40 years. Like you'd mentioned and Stravich for a long time, one of the things you'd mentioned, we were talking about a certain band and you were like, oh, actually, yeah, we influenced them and a lot, basically. I don't know. This is being factual. I've only ever heard this from you. A lot of the influence of vegetarian and veganism in the US punk scene came from Europe. The influence came over that way rather than that way coming to us. [01:07:59] Speaker A: Sure. I mean, if you look just on bands like cress or conflict, for example, on the early 80s, they've been the propaganda machine for veganism and vegetarian for sure. Or also against alcoholism or alcohol as a problem, right. What definitely is the american side, straight edge, straight up, is an american thing, right. That came definitely over from here. But the vegetarian vegan thing was always a big issue over here and very big. And a lot of bands who came over here, they basically figured out, like for example, veganism over here. I mean, use of today, when they stayed with us, we showed them the vegan food we had. They've been always open anyway because they've been always vegetarians. But I remember like the first chromic things we did. John was still vegetarian. And he made fun about me as a vegan, you know what I mean? All the time. Always little things he always came up with. He was also the Krishna thing. He said, oh, you should eat the pollen thing here from the bee. It's very good. I said, no, I don't eat products from animals. He said, oh, because you're so. And then later on, I mean, people developed maybe change, but when I've been in America around, there was a lot of vegetarian already. But it always was on that scene. Always back to the british old scene, conflict, press, whatever. These bands, they sing about it, they have massive lyrics about it. Animal liberation, whatever, right? And they've been influenced from them. And when they came over here and started, they basically saw that we had already the veganism going over. I know in America at that time, I didn't met any vegans in the early eighty s. I can't remember, and has seen any vegans. [01:09:33] Speaker B: Really. [01:09:34] Speaker A: Everybody was vegetarian or basically eating everything. [01:09:38] Speaker B: I became vegan on a european tour, see? Yeah. All right, I have a tougher question for you. So how old are you? [01:09:45] Speaker A: I'm 57. [01:09:47] Speaker B: All right, so you're part of a generation that of course live fast, die young kind of punk thing. But realistically we're way past that. We're older, I'm 49, but we are at a point where people we know are dying. And sometimes people are dying because they have a disease or they're in an accident. But a lot of it's just like age related. Like people are getting older. So for someone who's been around for a long time, I imagine you've experienced quite a bit of loss of some iconic people in your life. [01:10:21] Speaker A: Especially the corona. Yes. Was heavy. Very heavy. [01:10:24] Speaker B: So how do you handle that? [01:10:31] Speaker A: I'm not sure, I don't care. Probably I just ignore it. I mean, like I said just a second ago, especially the corona years took so many musicians away from us, we lost even complete bands, you know what I mean? And by the age, by their heels, problems, whatever, you know what I mean? But I maybe see it a little bit like a coming and going, you know what I mean? Like bands coming and going and they're gone, something like that. But a couple of people I miss already. I mean, that's for sure. It's a lot. I mean the damage is a lot and it gets closer and closer. That's not a question. [01:11:15] Speaker B: There's always this idea, I guess, with punk and hardcore that everything is forever, which is such a weird idea because most of these bands last like three years. I know, but it seems like in so many there's always an x tour, there's always an x record, there's always an x band, there's always this and that. But it's like at some point all of this ends and at some point punk ends and hardcore ends. At some point none of this will exist. I'm interested in the idea of like you've been doing this for so long and it's professional but you're still into it. [01:11:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:11:46] Speaker B: So what keeps you going? [01:11:49] Speaker A: First of all, that I never changed in my head, I guess. You know what I mean? I'm still loved the music and the thing. Second, it's like your life. I mean, we did it whole life. It's my whole life work. Sure. I didn't want to see it die. I think certain parts died already and whatever I called now, punk or hardcore is not what punk and hardcore was back in the days. Player changed, mentality changed. So I think it will continue forever. It just changed, you know what I mean? In a different way. And so I'm not looking to it. So I'm still happy now to find bands who have been interesting for me, who have something to say, were musically interesting. I'm still happy to build that thing up from the ground to the top, you know what I mean? Try to see the faces of the people being happy, singing along. Be happy to get influence. See so many people who need a band to survive in their life, who've been working hard with depression and the bands meaning everything for them. [01:12:56] Speaker B: I remember the first time you and I talked, we were chatting on the phone and I was like, oh, this guy actually likes good music. This guy's actually into good stuff. And of course I'd heard of mad. I knew a lot of people had toured. We'd actually done an mad tour with my old band years ago, but we never met. And I was like, oh, you're straight edge, you're vegan. That's awesome. And like, oh, you did the first youth of today tour. That's crazy. I had so much fun talking to you, with you that first time, and every time since then. But it's like the through line was like, oh, you actually like this music still, which is like, I know it's almost like part of the job, but you could see people getting jaded or just doing it to get a paycheck. [01:13:33] Speaker A: It's different. I mean, first of all, it would be my job to find successful bands who make money, but I'm looking for demo bands still who makes no money, just work. And I know by experience, as you said, they may be there for two or three years and the work is senseless. But I always think for 100 bands, we find maybe one makes it, and that one made band could make the change. The biggest problem these days is just like when you're talking the last probably ten years with young bands, everything we organized and then basically the whole digital and social media whatever, make it so easy these days, right? That when you talk with a band who basically has a demo out, people like them now, they're successful and a lot of bands contacting us. But if I find somebody where I think, wow, I just had it recently, and then basically I call them up and said, guys, I really like what you're doing. And I see you continue, you get a little bit more, let's say, serious about it. I really would like to join and help you just on the first steps to make it a little bit more easy. Also helping you in the background if you need anything, then usually you get from these people the answer, oh, we are DIY. We're doing all ourself. And I've been like, yeah, but you signed already to a label. Now you're not printing your records yourself anymore. Yeah, that's the only compromise. And I was like, yeah, but there's more than just your little bubble you're living in. Who maybe needs it. There's seriously DIY promoters who need a band like you to continue to keep it going. You are acting like you are part of a scene or network, but it's basically just a bubble, a part of it. And then basically, oh no, we are not ready for it. We are not there for professional. We don't want to play big shows. You always hear the same dialogue and even like afterwards because usually you see the bands after a half year, not anymore. Or it's the band who is trying with everything they can to be successful. [01:15:47] Speaker B: That thing that you're talking about. I was like rolling my eyes because there was a period in my life when I was like at whatever age where I only wanted to play basement shows and was like, that was like I was all I want to do, right? But when I started really doing it and doing it with a band that I really believed in and we worked hard, we would play with anyone. We played with hardcore bands that were totally different style. It's so weird about punk and hardcore is there's so many different styles. It's like, oh, we can't play with that kind of band or this band. We would play with anyone. And the way that I tried to pattern my band off of, which was sick of it all and sick of it all, I will never forget. Sick of it all were like one of the first hardcore bands you can get at major chain stores. And they made that choice because they didn't want to live in a bubble. They wanted to change the world. And I think if you want to change the world and you're playing to people who already believe the same thing, they dress the same as you, they think the same as you, what's the point? What are you doing? So I think both from just an artistic perspective, but a business perspective, it's like you owe it to yourself to get out as in front as many people as you want as you can. And that could be uncomfortable. But isn't that the point is like making a change? [01:16:56] Speaker A: Exactly. And you even missed the biggest point out when you mentioned Siko. For all the record. Look, when they did the step, there was maybe some ideas you mentioned before. But the most important step is Sikoporol is one of the rare bands we have in the world of hardcore who working for decades and playing all over the world. And they get the criticism from all over the world. We can't get your records. Where is this? Or this or that or this? You know what I mean? So when they did the step, they also want to make possible that everybody gets their record. And this is always the first step in a hardcore community who doesn't know really the real picture behind it, who criticized in the band to make a step like that. But they are the band who is playing in Roma. And the people said, we don't have a scene store here trading or import records from somewhere here in Berlin. We've been lucky since 78. We always had a record store importing records from all over the world, right? It was first Sun Records, then later on it was sasquatch. We built up the whole network and now we have Cortex for decades. Shout out to know. We get always records. You're not getting everything, but you always can get some. But for a band, like on a big label with big distribution, you always get the records, always. The other stuff is sometimes yes, sometimes no. [01:18:23] Speaker B: Sick of it all. I've said this many times, I think they're the band that doesn't get credit enough for what they did in terms of they've made being a band that can actually make a worldwide impact. They were the first band that did it and stayed true and didn't become corny. [01:18:42] Speaker A: They're not the first. I mean, agnostic front is there too. I think if we talk about. [01:18:46] Speaker B: Wait, I'm going to push you on this though. First of all, I fucking love agnostic front. I know nothing but agnostic front broke up. Agnostic front stopped being a man for a long time. Sick of it all. Stayed being a band. They pushed, they toured world 100%, Europe 100%. [01:19:05] Speaker A: But latest now, I think after the book and the video, everybody knows why they stopped. Of course, if that could happen and hit so hard, any other band who knows happened with what happened with them. Also, don't forget agnostic Front toured already before. They've been already through all this hassle and stick and stones, you know what I mean? And been one of the pioneers in the system. Sick of it all too, no question. But for me, they're both equal. [01:19:35] Speaker B: I will go with that. I will give you that. [01:19:37] Speaker A: When it comes to credit, when it comes to respect, when it comes to point, I mean, they're both like the working machines for the hardcore scene. They're not getting at all the credit they know they're not getting the respect they should and they're not getting the feedback they should because without them, there wouldn't be the next generations. [01:19:55] Speaker B: There's no your record being in a record store in Italy without sick of it all and agnostic front, that just isn't happening. There's no international touring for like a small local punk band for these bands. They were the bands. I agree with you. I don't want to diminish agnostic front because I love agnostic front. I love you, Roger. I love you, Vinny. You're all awesome. [01:20:17] Speaker A: It's just like. My point is, know, sometimes I hear agnostic front, and I always have to admit, sick of it all too. And sometimes I hear sick of it all. And I've been like, agnostic front too, because I just can't. It's like they're both working so hard. They're working in the years when it was not successful and they took so. [01:20:34] Speaker B: Much shit for what they did. [01:20:35] Speaker A: Exactly. They worked to the places when it's difficult. They fighting the way through. I mean, really fighting against bootlicking systems or whatever. And they both did it on their way. [01:20:47] Speaker B: They did it their own way. So they were like creating a path for all of these other bands to come and all these record labels to come. And as they're doing it, they're getting shit on by their own scene as they're like, breaking all of this ground and doing all of these things. And there's bands from different parts of punk and hardcore, like you mentioned, like a band like Krass or like, I'll say sick at all. Agnostic front. Or a band like Bikini kill. Like these people that change everything, but they also get shit on by all of the punks as they do it. And it's like, I have such a place in my heart for, of course, agnostic front, but sick vital, because I just think sick vital were like a band that really were just like polite, well raised people who always stayed polite, well, like, really polite people. Great band, iconic records, stayed very real about it. Always brought out younger bands, like, so real agnostic front, who I've had the pleasure of touring with both bands. Agnostic front are hands down the coolest group of bands, people I've ever toured with, wonderful people. But the thing that stands out to me and might be a little bit lost in history is they were absolute groundbreakers and also got terribly shit on by everybody as they were doing. [01:22:00] Speaker A: Everybody. Yeah, always. I mean, I remember when I had the possibility, because I tried to work back in the days to get us out of the squats and the clubs, tried to get the network accepted in a major league. And at one point I got the dynamo open air, what was a huge medal festival in Europe. 100,000 people a night. Not a night like a day, right? It's a daytime festival at night. And the guy was always like, hardcore. And he said, and then there was a sycapodal show and we talking, and he was like, we could do that once, we will do it. And he booked prong and I think they canceled, if I'm not wrong, co headliner. And he called me up and said, mark, do you think Sigvodol would do this? And I was sure, sure. So sick of it all was even with that festival, the groundbreaker, through the whole festival. What is so important these days for the people? Because agnostic front was there, too. But for agnostic front, everybody was afraid. They've been all scared about them. There comes the crazy ones. They've been also nice and polite, but they had a certain image and sick of it all. [01:23:11] Speaker B: A little bit earned though, too. [01:23:13] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. But sick of it all. Took that chance. They played it, and that opened up the whole festival market. And from that point on, we got one to the next. I could open up with sick of it all because they did really well, right? And people heard about it, and they just opened up this whole festival market over here with agnostic front in the second row, then basically all over Europe and opened it up is, for now, for most of the people, one of the most important thing, and they got a lot of trouble for it. Oh, they sell out, you know, all these things. I mean, they all had to hear that over time again. And, I mean, they do it the same way as us. [01:23:49] Speaker B: They just, like, so mad. Sick of it all. It's like two originals that never broke up, never went away. And such respect. Of course, the agnostic front, I don't want to diminish, but such respect. Sick of it all, I love sick of it all. I love the people in the band. They're so great. And the lineup's been stable. Like, they're just awesome. [01:24:09] Speaker A: Switched once, switched once. [01:24:11] Speaker B: Just once. [01:24:11] Speaker A: The first two was still with Richie, the bass player. Yeah. Craig was at that time still in agnostic front over here, which is so crazy, too, man. I know. [01:24:19] Speaker B: All right. [01:24:20] Speaker A: But it's so family, you know what I mean? It's like inside out and switching and know, they're both so equal and so different. [01:24:27] Speaker B: Totally. All right, man. We're heading towards the end of the interview. I'm going to head into what we call the crucial three, which are three increasingly difficult questions at the end. Before we get to the crucial three, there is a few questions I want to ask. And Mike, our engineer, popped in and he's super stoked. I see a huge smile. He's pacing back and forth right now. Of course, Monica is like all smiles back there. Monica, our producer, as a question I neglected to ask and I think it's a crucial one. How did things change for you and the punk scene when the wall came down? The Berlin Wall, for anyone who doesn't. [01:25:03] Speaker A: Know the Berlin Wall, you better look that up. Yeah, especially for us, Berliners was a big thing because I mean, I've been growing up in West Berlin and we had the wall around it. Whenever we wanted to go somewhere, we had to check like three controls, like border controls, like Americans only know from Mexico. Very tough, very rough, keeping up the wheels open, you know what I mean? Have to open a trunk, load everything in and out. So very difficult. We always say, as a know we in West Berlin, wherever we have the sun, you know what I mean? It goes normally up and east, right? And we always said like, we're the only city in the world where every direction you look to is always east. Because wherever we looked was east. So when the wall opened up, that was for us a big thing because we've been already sneaking bands over the border. When the wall was up, we sneaking bands over the border under the secret police making secret shows there and getting back. Especially Czech Republic was very quick open and Poland and when the wall came down, there was just so much peace and freedom. Mean, you couldn't believe it on the beginning overnight so many places in East Germany came up, wanted to do shows and we did right away. I mean again, Sikh of rolognassic from pioneers first row boom in sold out 1200 people and even more people going berserk. Most of the California bands didn't want to go there. They've been afraid about her listening to too much nazis, violence, whatever. So for decades only the New York hardcore bands basically going to the east, the tour, the other ones went to the other side because that was successful, that was the money, that was easy. East was rough. I mean you played shows and you had also the writhing of the right wing. And there was shows in Connie island for example, where we went out with sticks and stones and had a fucking street fight after the show. I think it was SFA or agnostic front. I can't remember right now, but it doesn't matter. So there was a tough one to go there but you needed these bands. It was like agnostic front, sick of it all, even know, whatever. Like the east coast bands. The bands mostly people criticized been the bands who always went where it hurts. They didn't care. In the worst case, they go out with you. So for us it was like overnight it was, you know, we are so free, so great. But it turned up to be a disaster for one person. Roger from agnostic front was not an american citizen. He needed visas, and now he needed visas for every single territory because he was an alien, as it sounds. So that was tough. And then you had problems. Sometimes on the border, they don't know the deal, they don't know the american paperwork. In the east, they didn't let you in over the border. They didn't let you on the next border. So we sneaked in over the next border, or we have to call somebody who opened up with the police somehow the border, for us then, it was difficult. New experiences was always kind of like weird. But in the meantime, the east opened up, and the east had always a good punk scene already back behind the Iron Curtain. And so it was so easy, and you've been so welcome. And they organized themselves very quick, very good. So that was great. That was very great, know, for the whole scene as well, because till now, the east of Germany especially is still a very good part for the hardcore scene. [01:28:38] Speaker B: It's so wild to me, man, how much those bands got shit on, and they did so much. They opened so many doors, so much. And of course, now it's like everyone loves sickle, everyone loves agnostic front. But this chapter is just like kind of lost in history. Anyone who writes books, go write a book on that. All right, so let's go to the next step with the opening of the Iron Curtain. Was that like another huge open thing, or was it kind of more seamless? [01:29:06] Speaker A: In West Berlin in the early 80s, we had the wild, wide west here, right? We had, like, parts where the police basically had nothing to say anymore. You did what you want. We had sneaking ways to fuck with the police. They can't go, whatever. So that was a little bit crazy. Very political, very autonomous, very anarchist. The rest of Germany was actually deep at sleep at that time. Or mostly in Europe too, a little bit. And with the Iron Curtain, when that opened up, that went like a whole country. The east of Germany was Wild, Wild west. You could do what you want if you look like a bad movie. In the 70s, when you see the road movies or the antihero movies, that was the east. The police didn't have much to say anymore. I mean, if the cops came up to you on a certain thing, you've been just like, fuck off. And he's like, in front of you, get off both, you know what I mean? Because they didn't know the aggressive teeth on the political scene, or people like us who've been confronting with the police or the government for so many years, and they just open up. So, you know what I mean? It was very difficult. That's why they've been overrun so many times. Also the violence till now, it's still on a very high level in the east. [01:30:17] Speaker B: What about when things open up, like the fall of USSR and things open up there? How about with that? [01:30:23] Speaker A: Same thing. [01:30:24] Speaker B: Same thing, yeah. [01:30:25] Speaker A: USSR to go over was very difficult. And then on the beginning, it was very difficult too, because they always have a very strong right wing scene, aggressive right wing scene. And so you had always to do shows on the early days till in the 90s, late 90s till 2000, you hire always security, and a lot of times has to be cops to make sure you can do a show like that. So that was always very difficult. [01:30:52] Speaker B: I got another one from Mike over here. Did the band the scorpions help bring down the USSR? [01:30:58] Speaker A: To answer that question to Americans, you have to understand one point, till that song, you probably thought of winds of change, I guess. Till that point, the band didn't matter. Over here and Germany, scorpions never mattered, never been successful. They've been worldwide, a big band, accepted, playing huge arenas. Over here, nobody cared. Germans never give him a chance, because they've been Germans. That's like a very bizarre mentality for Germans. But that's the point. Scorpions had to suffer. And when the war came down and they had that song, that was the perfect trick. And since that point, they got a little bit more respected over here. There's still not an arena band over here, because most people don't own their music. [01:31:43] Speaker B: Wow. [01:31:43] Speaker A: But that song is a big radio play. The one hit wonder they have afterwards, they did with a wave of metal, always like two, three songs you find on a metal party somewhere. But in general, when you ask my metal guy in Germany, and you've been like, scorpions, he was like, nope. [01:32:02] Speaker B: So did they bring down the USSR though? [01:32:04] Speaker A: No, they couldn't, because, I mean, nobody cared about them. And when they played the song, it was too late. I mean, they played the song when the wall was already open and the tv show happened. And I'm happy you asked me about him and not the other big player on that night there was another one, David Hevalov. Are you looking for freedom? He stood also on the wall and sing the song. Because he was a huge superstar at that point. [01:32:27] Speaker B: Over here, the Knight Rider. [01:32:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Wow. He's a huge superstar with one song. Wow. [01:32:34] Speaker B: Okay, you ready for the crucial three? Okay, so I want you to think of all of the bands. That you've ever wanted to work with. What's one band that you always wanted to work with that you've never gotten a chance so far. Either because they broke up and they never did anything. Or they just have been elusive for you. [01:32:56] Speaker A: All right, SSD control, big impact. The first two records, massive minus red, we only did forgotten show. Over here, they've been already broken up before it came over. That's definitely two bands. Bad brains, probably had several conversations, but always been on the other side. And now it's over anyway. So these kind of bands maybe for sure. What I would talk with the old English, it would be probably the clash on the Pistols. The demt I'm working with. Shem 69 I'm still working with. So it has to be the bands always for the first kind of periods. Who've been very interested or could not get in touch with some point. [01:33:39] Speaker B: What's the one band that you were never the same after either hearing them for the first time or seeing them for the first time. That band changed you. [01:33:49] Speaker A: Sex Pistols. Yeah, straight up. I mean, that record came so early. That was the first. Basically I got it from the neighbor. He said, mark, you have to listen to this. At that time we listened to slay T Rex, all that know. ACDC came up a little bit. They've been on tour here as the first punk band of know. Because over here they've been advertised as a punk band. On the beginning they got no chance in metal. And they played also in the punk club. So that's why people went there. But the Sex Pistols. [01:34:25] Speaker B: All right, so we're 40 years in the future now. What do you want the legacy of mad to be? [01:34:33] Speaker A: Same as now, which is stable, nice working, good friendship, good network of friends. Making a lot of smile in people's faces. Helping him to get thrive to the know and make a world a better place, probably. [01:34:49] Speaker B: Well, Mark, this has been one of my favorite conversations. A, like hilarious and super fun and ultra educational. I learned a ton. But b, it's like, I don't know, man. In a lot of like. I consider myself a lifer for punk and hardcore. Although what I do is totally unrelated to punk and hardcore. I do it because I came up in punk and hardcore. It's helped me figure it out how to be a business person. I have such huge respect and love for you and mad and thank you for everything that you've done. [01:35:20] Speaker A: Thank you. [01:35:21] Speaker B: All right, everyone, I hope you enjoyed this as much as I did. We will see you next time on one step beyond. [01:35:28] Speaker A: One step, one step. [01:35:38] Speaker B: One step beyond.