Janneane Madill, The Alice Sanctuary

[00:00:18] Speaker A: Hey, everyone. Welcome back. Today's show is one that I've been looking forward to for a really, really long time. It covers some of my favorite topics, of course, course leadership and business, but also animal welfare, really showing care and compassion for the other creatures that live on this planet, veganism. And, of course, sticking it to the man, which is, like, one of my favorite topics of all time. So with that, welcome to the show. [00:00:41] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:00:42] Speaker A: All right, so who are you and what do you do? [00:00:44] Speaker B: I'm Janine, and I'm the founder and guardian of the Alice sanctuary. [00:00:49] Speaker A: Okay, so what's the Alice sanctuary? [00:00:52] Speaker B: So the Aala sanctuary is a kind of a holistic view, I suppose, of bringing in animals that are in need of care who are either surrendered or they've been abandoned or neglected. And they come into our care, and we envision the best health for them. We walk them through their trauma. If they come in with a large amount of trauma, we help them heal, we bridge those gaps, and we build trust with them. And sometimes it takes days, sometimes weeks, sometimes months. Sometimes you might see a connection in a year, or maybe they just want to maintain their space. But for the most part, 100%, it's about healing and letting them be their autonomous beings and respecting their space and giving them the best quality of life that we hope to offer in the best way we know how. [00:01:45] Speaker A: Is it primarily for farm animals, or is it any kind of animal that would be living there? [00:01:52] Speaker B: It's primarily based for farm animals. There's a definite need for sanctuaries that do work with a multitude of farm animals that are in need of help, and home and sanctuary, of course, but we also work with people. So the one thing that I wanted to create with the Alice sanctuary and work stemmed from was my background in social work and psychology, working with special needs and vulnerable populations, and realizing, recognizing that there weren't real places for individuals to go to find their most ultimate selves. Right? Or just like having a different perspective of oneself in a completely different atmosphere that wasn't just related to a fast food operation or picking up carts in a Walmart, you know, shopping district kind of thing. So there wasn't a lot of programming that could be accessible financially for individuals. So I started to, I guess, dive a little deeper into this, and I was starting to recognize a large animal sanctuary just west of where I lived at that point and started to go over their house quite frequently. And then when I recognized that I really wanted to be a participant in building, perhaps, like, more social programming, community programming, I asked if I can start interning with them. So I was learning about large animal care, even just the basics of fence lines and walkways and gates and accessibility. Things like this are all super vital infrastructure for bringing in animals that need care. Lots of people don't think of these things, and they don't just come out of nowhere. You really have to plan that out and program that out. So after interning with them and building some program that could potentially help with community networking, community connections, we didn't really, I guess, connect in that way. So I was wondering, what am I going to do next with all of this thought I want to be able to implement it somewhere. And then that's when the Alice sanctuary started to finally, I guess, take a little bit more space and flight. Right? So I had it all on paper for about a year, trained for about a year, and then all of a sudden it was this like, phone call came in. Are you ready to bring in, you know, your first farm animal that's going to need your help? And it was a six week old piglet. And that was the key to your lifelong commitment to the sanctuary now. So, yeah, awesome. [00:04:31] Speaker A: So tell us specifically about the sanctuary. Like, what's the facility like? What's the land mass like? All of that. [00:04:38] Speaker B: Okay, so where I started, I worked for full time, two years when I first started the Alice sanctuary. So it was really small, you know, the animals that were coming into our care. Of course, the numbers were smaller because of the working that I was doing full time as well. I was bucketing waters from my back bathroom to these giant tubs for three cows that were in my care and pigs that were in my care, chickens. The infrastructure alone wasn't really the greatest for the sanctuary itself. And we've already started the organization structure in a way. And so eventually I took a leap of faith and started asking around some questions and finally found beautiful, magnificent, magical piece of property just east of Calgary, northeast of Calgary, and it's 118 acres. It already had a lot of the barn structures on site, so we just had to add a few more on site and create a couple more paddocks that were going to be more specialty needs paddocks, and we'd just been creating from that point forward, and we've been there for seven years. So, yeah. [00:05:47] Speaker A: And so what kind of programming do you have on? So I imagine it's like animals in need, they come into your care and they can live out the rest of their natural life. [00:05:55] Speaker B: Yes. [00:05:56] Speaker A: What's the programming beyond that? Because you'd mentioned kind of, like, community interaction, like, people being able to be there and kind of find their ultimate self, all of that. So where does that fall into play? [00:06:06] Speaker B: Initially, I had a great momentum. The programs that I really wanted to implement were, you know, reading to, you know, our residents. Kind of like kids can come in during the summertime, once a week, and they can read to the residents out loud and create stories and use their imagination. A lot of these programs were just kind of piloted to see how well they were going to be, how successful they could be. A lot of the times they weren't successful. And mostly it was because we just didn't have the program structure itself that was super dedicated. So it kept changing and adapting, then changing and adapting, and then eventually not having the coordinators that I needed to run these programs. Of course, it couldn't all just fall on my shoulders. And what I wanted to do is delegate a lot of this to other areas. That's when Covid happened. The pandemic came in and just threw all of that on a rocky ship and sent it out to the ocean and never found again. And it's been. It took us a long time, just kind of adapt through the pandemic, just even survive as an animal sanctuary because many animal sanctuaries actually closed just due to not being able to connect, not having, you know, social media, you know, have. Not having the ability to reach out. And, you know, the funding, that wasn't really a part of, like. So we struggled greatly, but we made it through, you know, but none of the programs came through. So initially, the programs were adapted for, you know, youth. They were accessible for parents. Single, single parents, single guardians with kids. And then our tours were the biggest program that we really implemented and has been and always has been, even through the pandemic, very successful. Right? People were waiting on waitlists, still are waiting on wait lists to come into the tours. And this has probably been the biggest program that I'm unwilling to let go of at the site itself, at the sanctuary itself, because of, creates a lot of connection for people in so many different ways. Right? So if I have a program that's geared for reading, there's lots of levels of, you know, relationship building, connection, imagination, feeling a sense of freedom when you're a child. And just, like, talking to a goat, be something that they've never experienced before, and knowing that go would want to hear what they're saying, too. Right? I had one group come out and they had a book with a mirror, and the mirror, like I had at that time, a rescue that had a hair lip, hair lip in a small cleft palette. And the mirror was suggesting love yourself, right? And that's what this book was about. It was about self compassion for kids and like self esteem, all of these things. And this cow, like Ellis would come over and he would just stare into the mirror, and it was just such a beautiful experience, right? So it was just, there's such a transformation for individuals to recognize themselves alongside of, you know, another being that could also be struggling with self esteem or self assurance or self confidence, you know, things like this. And it was just like a singular image and just the recognition of empathy, right. It was just such a beautiful thing. [00:09:27] Speaker A: That it's, that it's a. I mean, so as you're talking to me about it, I'm all about it. Like, I love, I love what you're saying. A lot of different kinds of people come to the podcast, different backgrounds, different interests. Some of them are going to be vegan and have like a really pronounced care about what happens with animals, and some of them are just, are not going to. So let's go for the second audience. So if we think of like, the uninitiated people who animal welfare is something they would consider more for like cats or dogs or like bunnies or something that, but not for all animals. Why would anyone do an animal sanctuary? Why does it matter? [00:10:06] Speaker B: As you might know, I just came back from a conference, the Humane Canada conference or summit for animals. And one of the biggest takeaways I got from that was a term called one health. And it's the entire interconnectedness of all of us and all beings on the planet, why it's important. And our tours for the vast majority of the people who come are not vegan. They might be vegan curious, they might be plant based curious, they might be veg curious. They might not ever want to change, you know, but they are still curious nonetheless. They're still open minded, right? So they're being invited. Nobody's taking them here, holding them hostage in any way. So it's like this seed that is planted, the sanctuary plants seeds for people to recognize their personal responsibility, their accountability to the land, to social justice, to people, to their neighbors, their community, to our future. And I don't think people can see in such a perspective that is outward from themselves. And so we're used to just kind of, especially because of the pandemic now I find, like, we're trying to knock on those doors again because we've, we become very closed in to ourselves and we're starting to reach out a little bit more and expand and elevate a little bit more. And the sanctuary helps provide that expansion in such a way that it's not just based on the connection with the animal that you are making a connection with right now, but ultimately now you are responsible for making the connection for all animals that are not lucky enough to be here. This is a representation of one, this is an ambassador of one. And there are millions that are being exploited out there. And we need to be responsible for this. And we need to be accountable for what it actually takes for this one being to be born in a very horrible and systematically traumatic environment and violent environment. And for this one to all of a sudden find its way to sanctuary. And we can talk about that story, but we have to go back into its past, to his or her past, and recognize what it was that they came from and then how much that expands to others, right. And how others are still in that process. But then from that point where they go, when they're experiencing the traffic from the farm to slaughterhouse, right? And then all of a sudden it's in that slaughterhouse and it's going through all of this. And the dynamics of social injustices inside the slaughterhouse, the environmental impact that this giant factory farm just did into environmental racism. Like, it's all kinds of stuff that we're starting to really approach farm animal sanctuary and the work that we do to recognize that this isn't if you, if you're not able to connect solely for, you know, the love of this animal to change your mind, there are all other reasons to start to, you know, plant your seeds with and go, I think I need to be a little bit more socially responsible. I need to be more environmentally responsible. I need to be more accountable. And so many of us are so, I guess, attuned to their core values, right? This compassion, this kindness, this love. Well, these are all things that can grow and elevate. These are not just structured spaces. And that's it, right? Like, oh, I have compassion. Well, of course you have compassion. You're here, let's grow it. Let's engage it in other areas of our world, right? So that we can move forward and become better advocates and stewards of the planet and our communities and our choices and, you know, our financial systems. Right? So the entire thing, it affects everything. [00:13:57] Speaker A: It does. I fully agree. I'm going to push harder on this question, though. [00:14:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:03] Speaker A: So if we're thinking of just, you know, like the total uninitiated into it, if they would say, well, why would there need to be an animal sanctuary? Not. Not why would there need to be? Everyone knows that there's animals in need, but why should it matter to everyone? Even if you're not vegan? [00:14:22] Speaker B: That's a big question. There's so many different ways that we can answer this question. Right? So one of them being what I just was mentioning, the other importance of a farm animal sanctuary, I think, and I don't want this to sound a little bit, you know, future thinking or, you know, dreamy in any way, but we're standing kind of in a time where we need to start recognizing that the way things have always been done can no longer be done. And we're going to have to figure out how we're going to transition into how we're going to start doing things, right. So I think a well run, which, of course, I'm not going to say 100%, the Auld sanctuary is well run and well structured yet, because we're still learning, we're still trying to figure things out. But to be really regulated and to see self sustainability, this will help others being able to maybe adjust their decisions, right? Like, maybe this isn't the way that we need to do things anymore. And I've always been a cattle rancher. I've always been a, you know, sheep farm. I've always been a goat farm. Well, maybe there's a different way that we can be handling things this time, right? Like, maybe we can change it over. We can transition it into a more of a respectful way of having animals on your property. And you don't need to exploit them, you don't need to consume them, you don't need to harm them in any way. Another good reason to have farm animal sanctuaries is to promote the health of, again, the environment, the planet, the community structure, the social oppression that ends up happening, making things a little bit more aware for people who never would have thought about these things. The connection alone to seeing individuals that are on our sanctuary and their stories, their uniqueness, their autonomy. Like, lots of people just would see a turkey as a turkey's a turkey. And then you come out and you meet faith or you meet hope, and you see them as individuals because you've never really thought of them as individuals before. We're so programmed into believing, I myself included, my backgrounds in farming and animal agriculture, right? My generations of farmers, we're just programmed into believing that animals are here for us, right? Not with us. We're meant to exploit them. We're meant to consume them. We're meant to use them. We're meant, you know, they're nothing, right? They have no brains. They're not smart. They're not compassionate. They don't show love. They have no experiences of joy or fear or any of these things, right? This is how we've been taught, again, like, we're the only species on the face of the planet that transitions from our own mother's milk to drinking the milk of another species, another mom. And we think it's normal. And it's because it's just been so programmed into us. Like, you know, it's. It's in their media, it's in our school systems, it's in our doctors, it's in our authorities, right? Like, it's just, we listen and we just do. We just don't even question it. So a farm animal sanctuary, when you come, you never even think of these things. These are questions that people wouldn't even understand. They wouldn't be something that they would even contemplate. Like, one of my biggest questions is, where does milk come from? Many people go, cows. And I'm like, it comes from moms. Moms create milk. You need to be impregnated. Like, you need to be pregnant. You need to be carrying. And this is where, you know, your body start to say, oh, you better start preparing to nurture this baby that is about to come from your belly that you are helping nurture inside. And this is how you're going to nurture it when it comes back out and enjoys the world. And lots of people just don't get that. They just didn't put two and two together. And it's not their fault. It's the fact that we've just, again, been so hardwired to believe, oh, well, there's nothing wrong with milking a cow. We don't even think about the babies. We don't even think that they're moms. We just think of them as machines. So farm animal sanctuaries, I think, can really bridge these extremely hard moments for people to go, I didn't even think of that. And it's nonjudgmental. Every farm animal sanctuary has its different way. And our environment and most environments that I would know for farm animals sanctuaries, is that it is a non judgmental environment. If you didn't know, I mean, I didn't know. I wasn't born with all of this knowledge. I was born with all the other knowledge. And I had to reprogram my brain to get to that point where I'm like, this is so wrong. And I think we need to allow space for that to develop for other people, too. [00:19:01] Speaker A: Yeah, beautifully said. I think a lot about when I want to talk to people about why there'd be an animal sanctuary or why there'd be animal, any kind of animal, animal welfare, or why people would change the way they eat or dress or any of these things. I try to get out of the conflict conversation and be more in the like, I think. I'm sure someone would disagree with this, but I think most people can agree that we would all love to see the world have less suffering in general. Like, a reduction of suffering. Most, I'd say, like, nine out of ten people would agree with that. I think very few people would be like, we're right at. We're perfect levels of suffering right now, or maybe we should increase it. I think most people will be like, yeah, suffering should be reduced. And I try to share with people in, like, the coolest way possible is, like, the simplest and easiest way to reduce suffering every single day is just change what you eat, and you don't have to go be super radical. You don't have to do some totally, like, super intense thing you can, like, that's fine, too. Just reducing your dependence and use of animals and animal based products massively reduces suffering every single day in the hugest way. And it could just be people have this ultimate power, and it's just the ultimate power to give animals mercy. And it's so crazy to me that we could just be like, oh, today, someone's like, I don't feel like chicken today. Right. It's like, it's crazy that you could just decide to not kill something that day and just decide to kill something else. You know, like, I'll grab steak, or maybe I'll have a salad. But it's like, human beings have such unintended, like, the average person, unintended power. [00:20:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:52] Speaker A: And I love what you were saying, especially around that kind of, like, one world philosophy, which is, like, really connecting people to, like, the enormity of their. They didn't seek the power. The power was there. They were raised with that idea. And animals were kind of, like, turned into. I love what you said, kind of like a biological machine. I'm quoting earth crisis here. That idea that they're not beings with a life, it makes it a lot easier to not really realize how much power you have and the awful consequences of your decisions. [00:21:22] Speaker B: I think a lot of people just have a hard time understanding that they're even creating suffering that they're even responsible for creating the suffering. You know, again, like, going back to when you meet a resident and you hear their stories and you. And you understand that they're actually responding like the residents are responding to you while you're listening to their story, and they're building this relationship with these individuals that would never even think, would even have these types of responses. I didn't know that they can play. I didn't know that they enjoyed. I didn't know that they had close bonds with their moms or with their siblings. You know what I mean? Like, so, in a way, I don't even know if people really understand the capacity of suffering that's actually being experienced because they don't see the beings that they're consuming as the individuals that they are trying to build. That personal perspective is something that a farm animal sanctuary does, right? Like, it makes it more personal. It makes it more of a kinship. It makes it more of a connection that you make. You know, you can't walk away from a farm animal sanctuary and not have any form of connection unless you just spent 5 hours staring at the clouds, not wanting to listen to you. At a farm animal sanctuary, like, at sanctuary, you meet the individuals one on one. You will see that they experience things. Like, you experience sadness, fear, grief, joy, love, connection, belonging. And all of these things that we think are just uniform to the human experience are actually experienced by all living beings. Right? And you build that up with somebody to recognize internally. Then they go, oh, I have been a contributor to a major form of suffering, and here are the reasons why. And they will make bigger choices in their life. Right? I'm not going to eat a turkey today because I met hope, like, six months ago, and I recognized her personality, right? And now it's not just a turkey's a turkey's a turkey. It's seeing hope. It's understanding faith. They're both individual personalities. They're very unique to one another, and then that just, like, it holds resonance with people. So, again, I just don't know if people really recognize the amount of suffering that they are participants in, and it's not their fault. So we have to somehow bridge that for people to understand in a non judgmental way. [00:23:54] Speaker A: I just love so much what you just said there that, you know, that idea of, like, I don't want to be in conflict with people. Like, there's some things you have to be in conflict with, some serious changes you have to push, like, all of that. But I like people. I like having, and I like, having great conversations, and I like having tough conversations, but I don't want to make someone feel bad or feel like, less or feel stupid or feel evil or any of those. And I don't want. I don't want anyone to do that to me either. So whenever stuff like this comes up, the reason I hit on that suffering point is, like, nobody, I think very few people ask for that, to have that kind of awful power to choose whether something lives or dies and the conditions it lives in. But anyone, especially in North America, grows up and grows up in a meat eating diet. And an animal consuming society has that from birth. Basically, you have the ability to decide if someone's going to die to contribute to suffering, conditions of suffering. So it's an awful power, but it's an unrecognized power. And then helping people kind of, like, realize the weight of the suffering that they're unintentionally allow, adding to and detangling that from, like, you're not a bad person because you have this power thrust upon you, and you're not a bad person right now because you, because you are kind of wrestling with it. You get to decide how you live your life going forward with that knowledge and what changes you want to make to reduce suffering and perhaps completely liberate yourself from having that awful power. [00:25:21] Speaker B: Such a good feeling, such a freedom. I liked that you said it was detangling. And this can actually be quite devastating to a lot of people when they finally come to this, like, aha. Moment, right? I knew it was devastating for me when I came to that moment, and I took a huge path towards anger and feeling powerlessness and overwhelmed and wanting to change the world immediately and then not realizing that the results just don't come tomorrow just because all of a sudden you just figured it out. But it takes conversation, it takes dialogue, and it takes that. Unraveling one point, like, one moment at a time and learning these things in the grocery store and, you know, what restaurants to go to, attend to and meeting like minded individuals. And so a lot of this has to come with follow up. Right? So I think we, again, when we have had these moments in our own personal lives, I think we also have a moral responsibility to, you know, assist or be or be present with somebody who has all of a sudden just fell through the floor and went into this personal state of, I'm 35, I'm 28, I'm 50. My mom, she was 68. And just reel it in a little bit. Just reel it in and just kind of funnel it through. I know this is a lot. We're here. Let's talk. Let's do this. Let's discuss these things. Anger is a great space to start, you know, initiating change, but it's not a great space to transform. Right? Like, it can really consume you, it can overwhelm you to be ultimately so full of rage and anger that you just feel like you're going around in circles wishing that you can just change, and you want everybody to change in a second, and it just doesn't work that way. Right. It just. It's, you know, it just takes a little bit more of that grounded centeredness, and then you can start transforming the world around you, even if you are that anger. Like, I'm angry all the time, but you have to choose which direction you would like to go to, to, I guess, communicate in a way that if you want to see the world change, then find a way that aligns with you and does the most good, most value. We live in such a shame based society, right? So everything's just super impulsive. Whenever we're going to have some sort of, whenever something comes to the table and it needs discussion, we have a tendency to basically say we're too scarce on time, you know, again, Chang based, that's the scarcity mentality. And then it's just kind of shut down, right? Or it's put on hold or it's put on some sort of back burner and then it's not actually discussed. We need to kind of find the time for these tougher conversations, these most uncomfortable moments, and, like, recognize in such a broad spectrum that we've been doing things wrong. You know, many people on these levels have to recognize that we've been doing things wrong. And we can't just keep sidestepping the issues that are at hand and placating to bigger industries because they have the majority of the money or they have the bigger concepts that kind of help them exploit more, take more, use more. I think because money is such a big driver for a lot of government conversations, it tends to also be the winner of these conversations. Right. And so anything that is a different state of mind, different source of thoughts, it's, well, you're not going to be a value to us in the future or to us currently, but the money is, right. So it's the money that's the driver of these conversations. Right? It's not our responsibility. It's not future accountability. It's not thinking about other people. It's not thinking about it. What's out of the box. It's just, where's the money? [00:29:15] Speaker A: Totally. And you're opening up a conversation I want to get into, which is around the founding of the Alice sanctuary. And how have you made it work financially? Can we step into that? [00:29:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Yes. [00:29:26] Speaker A: Okay. Because you open up the money conversation. And, like, this is a good segue. It's a great segue because, like, my job is in the corporate world, and I see wonderful, amazing, amazing people and great things happen in the corporate world. And I see sometimes, like, cartoonish, like, the thing. Like, imagine a tv cartoonish, kind of evil, like, person, you know, like, things you wouldn't imagine. Like, I've seen kind of, like, the spread of it all. And it's more on this side, like, wonderful people doing good work and all that, but also that, like, dollar and how we get that dollar and how we make that dollar 110, a dollar 20, a dollar 25. And, like, pushing it, that's where that human component, that good decision making, that, like, doing the right thing instead of the thing that will make us more money, it gets more complex. So if that's in a corporation that has shareholders, how do we do that? When we're talking about politics, ideas, we're talking about the lives of vulnerable beings on the planet. So starting from the beginning, how did you even, how'd you come up with the name Alice sanctuary? Where does Alice come from in this? [00:30:25] Speaker B: Alice is my grandmother. Her name was Alice. And just growing up, she always just kind of gave me this idea, this presentation, this energy that anything's possible, right? Also in combination to Alice in Wonderland. Like, you know, how do we fit into this world of adulting? And we're so different. We think differently, right? Like, so the Alice sanctuary, because it starts with the Alice, it was mostly the energy that my, my grandma kind of instilled. So I have a lot of anxiety. I have a lot of, you know, self esteem issues or self worth or, you know, where can I find the strength to do something I've never done before? And, you know, if I ever, if I take some steps back and see what I have done in my life, and I'm like, you've been, you've done a lot. You haven't been sheltered. You haven't lived in a closet. You know, like, I've done big things in my world, but it's usually when I start to recognize an avatar or, like, a belief system from my grandma, like, you know, it's okay. Like, you'll have the strength to do it. It's going to be scary. It's going to be hard. Take the risk. Have faith. And so it's called the Alice sanctuary because it was risky, you know, making the ultimate decision that you are now committed for the rest of your life, for however long that might be, to the animals that are coming into your care. And then you got to make it work, and you got to hustle, and you got to have grit, and you got to go through an awful lot of stuff. And so the Alice sanctuary just kind of resonates with me, with just creating the sensation that anything is possible. Because financially, I had nothing. I mean, I was working full time. I had a huge amount of rent, you know, debts. I wasn't making any real established money to even purchase farmland. You know, you'd go into a bank and you're single, and you're a social worker. Like, you're a laugh, right? Nobody's gonna take 1 second and say, okay, let's see how we can make this work for you. Like, it's not going to work. But I think the magic of the Alice sanctuary is what keeps putting out these breadcrumbs that I kept following and from starting it off with the original place that I was living in and seeing how well it worked with the clients that I would bring over to meet some of the residents that are with me. And my landlord at that time was, I think he wanted to kind of make me a mockery. Like, it was, it wasn't, it was supportive, but not, it was kind of, you know, I would tell him what my vision would be, right. And he was a professor at Olds college at that time. I don't know what he does now, because after I left, that was it. But he was a professor at Olds College, which is vastly known for animal agriculture programming. And I would tell him what the vision was, and the vision was, I want to bring people together with farm animals and build this wonderful, beautiful connection. And he said, good luck. I don't think it's going to work, but good luck. So, of course, I had to. That just gave me that extra, I'm going to prove it's going to work, right? And then that's when, you know, the organization had to take a leap. So I can't just continue living in this environment because it's, it's pretty naysaying, it's pretty negative. It shows a little bit of support, but it also has a big obstacle in front of it. There's not a lot of, like, extra on the outside. The vision, you know, wasn't supported. The vision that I had wasn't supported by, I don't think I had one single person in my family that actually supported it at that time. They really saw this as being something very difficult and didn't think that I would be able to do it, you know, things like this. The world wasn't ready for a farm animal sanctuary, Alberta. Right. And so I asked a couple of questions to a couple of supporters, and one supporter reached out and said, you know, maybe you should think about MySpace. She was a widow, and she was tired doing what she was doing. She had 118 acres. That's a lot of work. I apparently had a lot of energy at that time. So I came out, I explored it, seemed like it was perfect space. And then there's this just layout of, you know, a fairy tale, basically. Like, if you wanted and needed anything, what would it look like? So I wrote it all down, and that's what was presented. So we worked with what we had in terms of financials for bills or land care, you know, vet care. And she has a couple of animals on site, too. So I helped with just caring for her animals so that she can have more freedom and she can end up, one day, she ended up leaving and building another home. And she was a very, very altruistic person. [00:35:15] Speaker A: And then what happened? They moved off the land. [00:35:18] Speaker B: They did. And then we started growing. We became more of an autonomous organization again. We started to build a little bit more structure, finding the right board members so that we can start to grow and elevate and expand. And then financially, it was, you know, being able to do something like that, you kind of opened up to a greater resource of people recognizing what it was that you're doing and your, your philosophy, your value system. And I just, I followed what the Alice sanctuary was desiring. So this was something that was really important to me. For the allies sanctuary, as I mentioned before, you know, finding out all of this information, it can be quite devastating. It can send you into a loophole of that anger state, the comments that you make, that shame based type of conversations. And as a human, that's something that I would struggle with, and I wouldn't want to put that out into the world and that have. The Alice sanctuary is represented through this. So I stepped back. The minute that it started to open up its doors to animals and the guests that would come in, I stepped back and I just watched it unfold. I was watching, what's the sanctuary bringing to people? What do people need? What are people desiring? What are people requiring? And then I just started to fall into its place. So by doing that, I think that's helped build the reputation that the sanctuary has today. So it just kind of grew in terms of supports. And we get all the money that we raise is through direct donor support. So we've just become a charitable organization last year during this entire time of permit transitioning, which has greatly helped us because it helped us knock onto the doors like Canada helps, Calgary foundation grants, things like this. Right? Lush grants. As long as you're a charitable organization, you can really go for these bigger grants that will help us out. And of course, we really absolutely needed it. And it was such a difference because it was week to week for so many years, especially during the pandemic. It was week to week, and then everything just increased in cost exponentially to a point where it was, how are we going to do this? How are we going to pay for a $400 bale of hay and you need 70 of them? But we always found the resources. We always found we had great people on our team that would be okay with, okay, well, here's a loan. And then we paid back the loan, and then we'd get another loan. We paid back the loan. And so this was the catch and mouse game that we had to have all the time. I don't know if catch and mouse is actually a term, but you know what I mean? The chase that we had to do, right? The chase that we had was, okay, we're here, but now we have to do this. And then we have to do this. We have to do this. So financially, it was just, we always found a way, but it was always a struggle. And then we got our charitable status, and then we were able to breathe. And financially, that wasn't our priority anymore. We had the funding, now we can focus on these other things that we need, which were quite vital and important, like infrastructure and, you know, this permit thing that we'll talk about, it just was. It was a big difference. It made a big difference in the way that, you know, finances were coming and resources were being achieved. [00:38:53] Speaker A: You mentioned something about your grandmother and why you named it, used her name for the sanctuary, and you said almost like an avatar. And you also talked about your own struggles about, like, self belief or esteem. And I find that to be really common with very inspirational leaders, like people who really go out and take a leap. They almost need to have some kind of, like, avatar, like an outside source that helps fuel them. And that outside source could, for some people, be religion. I'm not a religious person, but no, no, slight on anyone who is. So some people, it's religion. For some people, it's. Other people are inspirational. It could be a family member. It's something that you believe in and through your belief in that, like, your faith in that, it somehow transmits belief back into you. [00:39:46] Speaker B: Yep. [00:39:47] Speaker A: So in that space, like, what role? Now that you're a leader and you're doing something, like, big, significant, inspirational to other people, what role does that take up in your life of becoming that for other people, being that avatar for other people? [00:40:02] Speaker B: Oh, God, I don't know if I am. That's big. That's a lot of responsibility. I don't know. I think I hear a lot of that feedback come through again. I think I just feel like I'm just not just. But I'm a conduit for the sanctuary in its message, right. So I feel in a way that, you know, when people give me that type of feedback, like, what you're saying that, you know, my grandmother was this for me, and now I might be seen as something like this for others. Right. Like, it's. It's. It's hard for me to swallow because I have. I even have imposter syndrome, right. Like, I have a lot of doubt in myself, and I have a lot of doubt that I'm doing good in the world. I have a lot of doubt that I'm even putting any value into the world. So. So it's hard for me to honestly hear that that's something that I could honestly be, because I just wake up and I do my things, and I make sure everything's good to go, and I provide a good connection for tours, and then I do it again the next day. Right. Like, it just feels like it's just such a. It's purposeful and it's valuable, but I don't know if I could ever potentially see that I would be that for another person. Right. Like, I would embody that for another person. Which is really incredible that you asked, because it was this year where I started to develop the idea I anchor into words, and when I started the sanctuary and vegan and the philosophy and where I want to sit, I really anchored into the word integrity and really defining myself through integrity. And am I being in integrity right now? That has now transformed into curiosity and leadership roles? And how can I be a leader? Like, how can I be a better leader? Because we're really starting to expand on the organization structure, and I think it definitely needs somebody sitting at the table who is seeing themselves as the leader of this organization. Right. And so what does leadership mean? What does it resemble? How do I fit into that? How can I be better at it? Because if I never really considered myself to be a leader, well, then I'm probably falling short in a few ways, right? So I have to define that for myself. And how do I also feel? Like I'm sitting in alignment with who I am as a human being and taking on this big role as well at the same time and making sure that I'm doing a great job at it. So it's something that I'm still defining and probably something I'm still accepting through feedback. I mean, the support letters that were coming in, I was reading them, like, oh, God, oh, God. Like, I don't know if I am these things, you know? You know? And it takes a long. Like, it's definitely a character definition for me. It's deeper than just the term leadership. It's like something I really want to explore a little bit more. I am. I am exploring it. [00:43:08] Speaker A: So does someone need to believe in themselves to be a leader? [00:43:12] Speaker B: Apparently not. I think. I think there is an essence to leadership, you know, an essence to leadership and a recognition that in definite times that do happen, you know, let's say events coordinating, taking charge of something, or, you know, there's a distressful situation. I think there needs somebody who steps in and takes charge of these moments. Right. So I think leadership definitely plays a role in these things. How to keep a farm animal sanctuary going during a pandemic, you know, we need a certain sense of leadership to get us through these things. But the belief in oneself is such a different question. Right. I think when you have to be, you are right. And so if I were to be asked at that time, did you honestly believe in yourself to take into this big position, this role of a very distressful situation for a couple of years, did you believe that you could do it? I don't know if I could answer yes or if I could just say, I just did the best I could. I didn't give up. You know, there are lots of times that I felt like I wanted to collapse and say, okay, enough of this change. This is too much. But maybe you grow into the belief of yourself, just like you grow self esteem and self confidence, and, you know, you take a look at the reasons why you might be doubting a situation and seeing the faith in it all too, at the same time, which is what the Alice sanctuary is supposed to be about, right? Is believing that anything is possible, even if it feels impossible. And I think for that to happen. You do need a certain sense of self belief, and I think you do. You know, especially in situations like this, like, no one else is going to be able to manage seven days a week of the out sanctuary, so somebody has to. And there's got to be a leadership role in that, right. There's got to be a defined moment of leadership role into that. So I don't know. I don't know if that answered your question. [00:45:20] Speaker A: It totally answers my question. It's a gray area. I've met many leaders who felt good about themselves and were great leaders. I've met leaders who kind of believed their own hype and were just like, I'm a great leader, and they sucked. And I've met a lot, and I say, maybe this is the most. Is people who are really, really good leaders. And part of why they're such good leaders is that gulf of self belief, because it keeps them humble. [00:45:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:56] Speaker A: And when they make a mistake, it's not that it's rare, but they're usually smaller mistakes because they're so thoughtful about, like, gosh, I don't know, everything, so I should be careful about how I make a decision. If there's one piece of advice I give for leaders who struggle, struggle with self esteem or self belief, but they're still out there leading and doing good things, it's really get really good at believing what you're, like, the positive feedback you get from people, like, really commit to getting good with listening to and listening to it and take it to heart. But also, it's like, on one shoulder, fully commit to listening to positive feedback, but on the left shoulder, allow just enough of that inner voice that you have of doubt to stay there as well, because it's really what keeps your axe sharp. Like, you're like, hey, I am doing good. I'm getting all this positive feedback, and I should listen to the other side of myself because that self doubt, well, it sucks and it's terrible. And, you know, I struggle from a lot of the same things that you do. While it sucks, it's also the thing that's kept me pushing, and it's, like, caused me to, like, take leaps of faith and, like. Like, really arm myself well with, like, knowledge. And, like, I pay a lot of attention to the world around me and people, and I'm always trying to figure things out that, like, I guess, like, inner fear, where I've always been, like, my whole world could fall apart at any second. [00:47:19] Speaker B: Like, yeah, the overthinking mind, it's really. [00:47:22] Speaker A: It's really armed me quite well to be a leader. So I always want to keep some element of that on one shoulder. But, like, my big. Not struggle. But I'd say, like, something I've started to get quite good at is my nearest and dearest, my trusted voices who won't bullshit me if they're giving me really good feedback. And, like, you're kicking ass. You're doing good. Like, this was really important. Like, wow, that was great. I'm like, I'm going to choose to believe you. And that was hard at first, and for a long time was hard at first because I was like, I suck, I'm so bad. But I got it to just enough now where, like, I can buoy myself up to make really, really crisp, clear decisions because I've got good feedback from other people and I've got a strong track record. I've just enough of that self doubt being like, don't get too comfortable, guy. Like, keep. Keep focusing. I think that combination for leaders that are struggle with that self doubt but are still doing really great things, I think it's a healthy goal to shoot for. [00:48:16] Speaker B: Okay. I don't feel so broken. Yeah, no, it's something that has been really here at the forefront of my mind. Like, lots of questions have presented themselves over this course of, especially over the course of the last three months. Right. And what does my future look like? What does the future of the sanctuary look like? And how is that going to unfold and feeling all of these things, these dark and heavy things. Right? Like, it's, are you going to be good enough? You know, this is what people see in you, but you don't believe any of it. You believe all of these other things. So really, are you going to be good at what you're doing going forward? Like, how do you take those next steps? And a lot has to do with, I think, where you are spiritually. Right? So again, I'm not religious in any way, but I'm connected. There's no way I cannot be connected spiritually to the world, to nature that I'm in. Right. It's kind of demanded me to be in a spiritual connection with the energies that are out at the sanctuary and, like, through the moon cycles and, you know, all of these things that end up happening. You know, I'm more stewed to what to expect during a season kind of thing because of these. These moments of clarity that I might have. [00:49:32] Speaker A: So you had mentioned you were involved professionally in social work and, like, therapeutic work, correct? [00:49:39] Speaker B: Yeah, social work. Yeah, yeah. [00:49:40] Speaker A: Okay. You also grew up with like a family history and agriculture? Correct. So tell us a little bit about that. Like, where'd you grow up? [00:49:51] Speaker B: I was born and raised in Ontario, so I was born in Orangeville and then eventually we moved to Brampton. But many of my family members were in animal agriculture. My one aunt was a dairy farmer. They're still dairy farmers to this day. My grandparents were farmers, my mom's side, they were farmers. Right. So it was, it was a common theme in both sides of my mum and my dad that farming has been a part of our generation. [00:50:22] Speaker A: But you didn't grow up on a farm, did you? [00:50:24] Speaker B: I did not grow up on a farm. I visited farms, I've been there a few times, but essentially I did not grow up in it. Yeah. [00:50:32] Speaker A: So it's not without the scope of imagination. It's like within your background, pretty close. Within your background, you find yourself as a social worker and you've got this deep belief in animal welfare. It is a huge leap to go from being a social worker to running an animal sanctuary and having that be how you live and sustain yourself. [00:50:56] Speaker B: But is it what I noticed when I started to really dive deeper into, I guess, the sanctuary world? Right. So when I was 15, I did a, I did a paper on a factory farming for my social studies class. Wasn't entirely sure why that was one of the topic choices, but that's the one I chose. And of course, at that time, the only information out there was mostly PETA. So it was shocking enough to change my entire worldview and perspective on animals and their exploitation within, you know, hours. Right. All the information that I was gathering, I wasn't too sure how I did on that paper. Hopefully I must have passed, but that really changed my world for me. So I already felt empathically connected. I would feel the pain, I would feel their agitation, I would feel their horror, I would feel their violence, I would feel the trauma. So I chose never to consume them. Right. But I never had a real, I guess, sanctuary connection until eleven years ago. And so when I went to the sanctuary the first time and I started to listen to, you know, some of the information that they were giving me, it really kind of just sparked something inside of me. And they said, like, you know, there's a deep need for safe spaces for animals. And I just never thought that, because my whole life has been geared towards building safe spaces for people. But there was literally no difference between what an animal needs in a safe space and what a person needs in a safe space. Love, kindness, generosity, compassion, you know, safety, security. These are all essential needs that a human needs. And these are all essential needs that an animal needs. Right? So it just hit, I think, like a wildfire, that I was like, these things have to be amalgamated. I feel too terrible not to believe that I can do something bigger and greater with my life. And in fact, I was having one of my mental health breakdowns, and I was sitting in my garden and barefoot and just kind of, like, in the dirt. And I honestly asked the question, like, you know, what am I here for? And I was struggling with my sense of purpose and my sense of identity and my sense of value for this world. And I had two questions, and it might be two heavy questions, but I'm gonna say them. My first question was, what am I doing here? What's my sense of purpose? And if I don't have one, then you need to let me go so I can create space for someone who can. Like, that's what my mentality was, that's what my thought processes was, right? So it's like, if I'm not here on purpose, because I feel like I'm a greater. I have a sense of greater purpose than this, but something's struggling, there's an obstacle, there's something that's blocking me from getting there, so what is it? But if I don't, then what's the point? What is the purpose? What's the point of all of this? I don't understand the struggle. It makes no sense to me. And of course, I was talking to something greater than myself. The universe, the stars, the moon. And that's where everything started to change. Everything, the whole thing, my whole life just changed. I became somebody who really inadvertently did not like making money, but creating a flow of money. So I'm a full time volunteer. I love volunteering. And then that way it makes me have room to be more creative, like my photography, or hopefully maybe one day a book or whatever it might be, right. Or public speaking. But of course, anything that I generate always goes right back into the sanctuary anyway. But everything just kind of really, all of the things that I thought were important went out the window and they just turned into garbage, turned into, like, this was just incinerated. And my entire life just completely changed and altered from that point. It was the fact that I started to see the individuals that are now who I call residents as my equals, and I am with them, and I'm not their voices, because they have their own voices, but I can translate their voices. And this is kind of what I was also doing in the world of human care. Right. And it just made so much sense to me to see how much need there was in what I was doing as a social worker. And then how do I amalgamate this? How do I create a bowl where people who need to hear the stories of the animals resonate with the stories of the animals, and from that, they can also build their own personal inner strength from their stories? Right. So it really is like a holistic effect. It's not just sanctuary for animals and then build safety and security for humans. It's honestly, there's this holistic effect that happens when everybody shares a story. We resonate with their stories. It helps people build the idea that they can get through really tough moments. Right? So even though Zedric's story was much different than, let's say, this individual story over here, but the story of Zedric triumphing and his story and how he ended up leaving and what ended up happening after Zedric left us, and this whole transformation of energy and story now affects somebody else because they see it as something that they might be experiencing. [00:56:31] Speaker A: Let's come into current day. So what can you share with us about the most recent legal or the year long, the year long legal battle that you've had, how it kicked off and how it's. And how well, what the end of. [00:56:50] Speaker B: It'S been so current day, I feel like I can sleep for weeks. So currently, we are now just digesting the outcome from everything that has happened for, honestly, it's been a year. So coming out of the pandemic, we were quite excited to open up to our events and tours again. And we posted about it. And then instantly we were slapped with a complaint. So we had RCMP come down into our driveway and say, hey, we've had a complaint about parking on the roadway. And we're like, well, when? Like, we haven't parked on the roadway for years, since 2019. So, you know, a few years have passed, and now all of a sudden we're getting a parking complaint. And at that time, I was like, okay, so we just got a complaint. It'll just go away. And then I got an email. And then the email said, we've just been made aware of your sanctuary and we think that you're going to have to rezone your property. And you can't have all of these things that you're doing without rezoning your piece of land to become more recognizable for the county's processing and permit use, which is just, you know, pretty name for costs. Right. I don't mind permit processes. Not at all. So we went and we talked to the development officers, and they were awesome. They were fabulous. They walked us through, they guided us through it put a big dent in what we were going to provide and how do we raise money? So we adapted a little bit and we brought all of our large vents into town and they've done quite well. So we just kind of kept them there. And then we would do tours, like small tours at the sanctuary, because those are vital for those connection pieces. Right. Eventually, after reorganizing and adapting what this might look like, we decided that rezoning seems to be too much of a process. Like, we're not doing these things anymore. We've noticed that these things work instead. So we're just organic, we're flexible. We're trying to figure things out. So then we were presented with the home based business permit, type three, which would just allow. We applied for small amount of tours and two events. So one event is our beloved Mother's Day event. Everybody loves that event. It's a beautiful event to have. And then another one was a pumpkin drop off after Halloween. Composts. Right. But the tours themselves are. Are important to me, so we don't raise a lot of funding through them. But what needs, what, the necessity of them is the connection piece. Right. So it was vital for me to make sure that we had that ongoing and we had to do the permits. And so we applied for those permits. The permit. Our development officer was like, this is amazing. This is great. You know, I'm going to approve this. And normally, 99% of the time, anything that is approved by the development officer is genuinely approved by the committee, the NPC committee, the commissioner committee. That was not the case. In fact, it was the complete opposite. The first MPC meeting I didn't listen to because I was quite nervous and I was busy doing something else. But we did have a board meeting. Our board member listened to it. She called me right away and she's like, I can't believe what I just heard. I still to this day, have not watched it because it was so bizarre, it was so baffling. It was just insanely full of lies and inaccuracies. And they said that these meetings, they'll never have people public. Public can go, but public doesn't stay speak. But they were going to offer the neighbor who was in opposition to this, a podium to express himself in opposition to the sanctuary. Opposition to me in the sanctuary. Yeah, his space. They were going to give him space. To really drive deep why we were not supposed to be here. Right. [01:01:08] Speaker A: And just to clarify, this was all kicked off by a neighbor complaint? [01:01:11] Speaker B: Yes. [01:01:11] Speaker A: But the neighbor had never complained to you directly. [01:01:14] Speaker B: Never complained to me directly. And in fact, this neighbor, we've had in the past an amicable relationship. He's been over to events, he's participated in events. He's been a speaker at one of our events. He's asked me to host a table for a few of his friends that were selling products that if they were in alignment, then we would consider it. So we've had an amicable past. And that changed when he decided to do an increase in animal agriculture. So when I first moved in, there wasn't much happening next door. There was chickens. I think he had a lair barn. And then eventually it became something much larger. And with the exponential rise in numbers of animals on a poorly infrastructured site, lots of breakouts, lots of fence breakings, lots of poor welfare was happening and many other things that were happening too. And that increased the divide in tension because we have a shared fence line where my house is here and the happenings are here and his house is here. Right. So eventually I think that it just came down to a privacy impact, right? So my privacy was being impacted. His privacy was being impacted. But he thought by putting in a complaint about parking that never existed for years that this would put a dead halt on the sanctuary. Right. So, I mean, like living in a county that is in, you know, 99% animal agriculture land, having a farm animal sanctuary is clearly, you know, something that you get to complain about. Right. They're in opposition especially in this province. Right. With our laws that's such. And the complete opposition towards animal welfare. So that's how it started. And what ended up happening was at NPC, that energy was exhibited. It was total opposition from many of the individuals that were sitting on this commissional board. There was a couple that were not in opposition to this permit, this permit. But the ideology was what was presented. So I don't know if they realized or recognized what they were saying was actually in effect like a charter of rights issue. And so once we presented that, we made that public because it was enough's enough, right? Like we put in the permit, we did what we did. We were doing everything right. But the way that you responded to it was with threats. They threatened the entire space that we were in. Like, we're not doing it right. We weren't in accordance to their bylaws for animal agriculture lands, things like this because we didn't slaughter, we didn't exploit, we didn't use our animals, we didn't raise them to kill them. So if we did things so differently, then do we even have a right to be here? So that was presented at the first NPC meeting. The planning officer was even kind of in awe with what happened. But, you know, she was very diplomatic and very professional. I applaud her. Through it all. We were. Again, when he was presented with the neighbor was presented with the opportunity to speak. She spoke up and said, this is actually against policy. This is. You can't do this. And then it was somebody else on the commission board saying, like, you know, if you allow this to happen, this is going straight to appeal. Like, you have to do things legitimately. I think some of the board members, the commission board members even said, we're allowed to do basically what we want. If we want to vote him in to speak, we have the right to do that. But eventually they got to a point, well, if he's going to speak, then I should have the right to speak to and advocate on behalf of the sanctuary. So that flash forward into a month later, where I was completely stressed and everything was threatened and our home was threatened. My home was threatened. I felt like I was in danger every single day. I felt unsafe. I felt like my family was unsafe. So it took a big toll on my mental health, being vigilant all the time on how to do things properly and get some sleep at the same time. Right? So the second meeting happened, we were ready. We had 20 amazing supporters. People filled the room. They were there to support me talking because nobody else was allowed to talk at that time. There was going to be my neighbor talking and then me talking. They presented the permit application as they did in the past, and they backpedaled on what they said by saying that we don't even have a right to be here because we're not a part of animal agriculture. They said, we do fit into the bylaw and we were doing things, you know, appropriately with the land. Right? So they did say these things. So they backpedaled on that, which gave me a little bit of a breath, like, it was like, okay, we're no longer threatens. Our space is okay. We're safe. And then they processed this permit with more inaccuracies and even a couple of boldface lies. And they didn't even ask anybody to come up and talk. So even though that was the point of this meeting that was taken away. And we were sitting in the room so they could have asked questions to clarify a lot of the inaccuracies that were happening, but they opted not to. And then all of a sudden, they were voting, and everybody was just like, what's happening here going on? We don't even have a right to, like, talk about what you're just saying. So, yeah, they denied it three to two. I think there was two people that were in support of our permit, and then the three that were quite obvious about their dislike for what we do and everything else, you know, they were in opposition. They denied it. So that was the vote. And so that sent us directly into appeal, and that was a completely different process. So the appeal is not voted in commissioners or, you know, district representatives. They are district representatives that have applied for these positions. And so they're just our peers. Right? Like, there would be my neighbors peers and, you know, people who would be part of the community of Wheatland county. So knowing that going forward, we had a list of things that we were able to do to present at the appeal, how it was going to go. It was called an appeal hearing. So we knew that there was going to be an opportunity for me to present the application itself and stand up and advocate for the ILS sanctuary. And everything else that has been said, we addressed. And then we were allowed to have speakers on behalf of this appeal. Right. So people who are pro the Alice sanctuary and then, or the appeal permit, the permit and then the opposition, we're also allowed to speak. So we prepared for another month for this. And by putting it out there, the second meeting, because it was so baffling and bizarre, again, that's when we presented everything basically on our social media. Like, enough's enough. Like, we just. We're being misrepresented here. And it feels like I'm up against a giant wall, like a David Goliath moment. I need some help because I don't know what this is going to look like for the Alice sanctuary coming forward. And so I really didn't know what the response was going to be. I thought it was just going to be a minimal amount of response, and it turned out to be something that ignited the fires in many, many, many people. Wheatland county residents were contacting me, asking me questions, letting me know that this is an appropriate decision. They were all in support of the sanctuary. I don't think we heard one single bad remark this entire time. CBC was out. They did an online post about it. They said this was probably one of the most positive pieces they've ever had. Feedback on CTV Global, same thing. Like, I guess people. I don't pay attention to comments like, I just feel like that's just. I don't want to really dive into those moments. I was doing the best I could just to kind of be strong. But the feedback that I was getting from people who were reading them, they were saying that there was just nothing but incredible support and blocks to anybody who would say anything that would be negative in any way or misrepresentational in any way. There was somebody immediately on them who never even experienced the sanctuary before. They just were immediately saying, like, you know, these things that are happening, they're not appropriate. We need to start having a bit like a better thought system. We need to have open discussions like they were coming from farmers in animal agriculture, agribusinesses, you know, of course, vegans, you know, people who are plant based. Like, it was just coming from a broad spectrum of people who just firmly believed that the decision that was made at the second NPC meeting was horrendous because they didn't just deny the permit to the tours and the two events, they threw in our volunteer program, which wasn't something we wrote on a permit. We didn't ask for permission for you to tell me that I can have some help out here. Farms have farm hands. Why would that be something that you ask for permission for? This is what actually got people very upset. So, okay, you don't understand the tours, okay, you don't understand the two events, but you're harming somebody have help. You're taking away a community process. You're blocking people's want to volunteer for a charitable organization. What kind of community are you? What kind of community are you representing? Right. So you're allowing one person who has a greater idea of what privacy is and really wants the sanctuary to halt all practices. You're allowing that one person to take away so much from so many more people. I got people thinking, and we're allowed to have farmhands, you can call them friends and family. But the point is that a volunteer program is essential to community. It's a way to give back choice. It's an alignment to people. It harmonizes people. It creates balance in people's lives. Like, it's something that people want to give back to. It builds strength in them. Right. So it's. That was a big thing for people. And again, like I said, there was a broad spectrum of individuals who had a lot to say about that. And it provided us with over 200 letters of support from all over the place. Hong Kong, Australia, states, all across Canada, within the county's community themselves. I've had businesses reached out and said, like, I want you to know this is not what we think. You deserve the right to be here. The sanctuary deserves the right to be here. You are not a threat. And we should all learn to coexist. Right. It was such a. It was such a beautiful response from all across in such a wide, like, spectrum of ideas and, you know, where people's thought processes were. And, yeah, that's still something I'm still digesting. So that takes us directly into this appeal. So the day of the appeal, you know, we're sitting at the table with the group of district representatives, and they also added all the development officers of the building. Everybody was there, and they also had legal representation on the phone to make sure that this was not going to cross boundaries. On other thoughts. Right. Like, if you're making a decision, you better make sure you make that decision based on this permit and the accuracies and the facts of this permit, not your thoughts and your belief system and your biases. So it was a really important meeting, I think, for everybody who was involved. It was pretty big. The opposition, you know, said his piece, and of course I said my piece. We've had beautiful support messages that were through from volunteers to board members to media representatives that followed the sanctuary for so long. So it was a big moment. It was a good opportunity, a fair opportunity, not like the others. Right? So it was a fair opportunity. And I felt like everybody did their best. I still did not know what that outcome was going to be. Not at all. I felt like the energy of the room was good, felt non toxic, you know, felt like they were good listeners. There was great questions, good representation, and there was even empathy felt, you know, for what the opposition was potentially trying to dig at. And it was just, yeah, the day was good and it ended. And after that, I think it just completely collapsed. My brain collapsed, just went into mushroom. I was like, I'm not going to think about anything. I don't know what's going to happen. And then we just got an email, and the email said, you know, in a very professional way, we're granting you your permits for the next two seasons. And it was just. It was a beautiful message. It was super nice at no conditions except for dust control, which I'm like, okay, we'll do dust control. It's going to cost a little bit, but that's fine, if that's all you want me to make sure that I'm responsible for. I'm all for it. No dropping of numbers of tours, no drops of tours, no conditions on the events, and just being mindful and respectful. It was just, like, beautiful. It was a beautiful message. And it's like all of this, an entire year of everything and all that, the expense of energy, because there wasn't so much. There wasn't a lot of financial drain to it, other than I wasn't able to be creative for fundraising. All my energy went directly to this. It was difficult. And the individuals that helped me, I had one or two individuals that really were on board with this. Their energy went towards this, too. So us raising funds really kind of took a hit. But we didn't spend the funds for any of this to happen, other than the permit application cost itself. But, yeah, it was just something that now we're just trying to weave ourselves back into all of these things that are going to help us bounce back a little bit more, I think. [01:16:07] Speaker A: So, looking to the current time, but also the future, what's next for Alice? Sanctuary. [01:16:14] Speaker B: That's a great question to ask because I don't know. I am honestly still developing that. Like I said before, I just came back from Victoria. They had the humane conference, the summit for Animals for Humane Canada, and it just really opened up doors for me to process a lot of, you know, where do we take it from here on? Right? So for the last ten years, nine years, it's been an activity. One year was on paper. Everything's been slightly organic and just kind of processing, processing, finding, you know, certain degrees of details that need to be in place. But now, where I really want to be seeing it is a fully run, regulated, acknowledged, well represented Alice. Sanctuary, farm animal sanctuary. What does that look like? What steps do I need to take? What acknowledgements do I need to make? How do I find the right people to fill in the spaces that I need people to be filling in? There are so many spaces that need to be filled in for farm animal sanctuary, so that it leaves me some space to do the things that are next level. Right. So how do we find the right people to do a broad based animal care system? How do we find the right people to really focus on infrastructure needs and finding the materials specifically for those things and then finding the volunteers to help us build those things? How do we find the right people for social media? How do we find the right people for it? Because I was engaged with so many conversations that said, you need to do virtual tours. We're from Ontario. We want to know more about you. How do I do that? How do I build a better website? How do I engage donor reciprocity? So how do we do that? I've been really neglecting these things, not because I've been lazy, it's just that I've been using so much energy and other resources. Just a battle, this one thing, but also still process. Like, what do we look like going forward? I know what the foundation looks like, but what do we do with it next level? So that's a big question for me, which engages that whole role of leadership, right? Like, what does that look like for myself? How do I do that? How do I develop that? How do I put it out there? How do I present it? It's so many questions. So it's a great question. [01:18:47] Speaker A: I love it. All right, so as we're heading towards the end of the interview, I always ask three tough questions. [01:18:53] Speaker B: They're gonna, oh, you haven't asked me tough questions yet. [01:18:57] Speaker A: They're gonna increase in difficulty as we go on. Okay. But before we get to that, we're gonna have, you know, links to the Alice sanctuary and everything on the podcast page. But it'd be great for the listeners. How can they get in touch? How can they donate? How can they show some support? [01:19:15] Speaker B: Currently, I think the best way to go through would be. The best route to go to would be the website. So it takes you into our donation page and our sponsorship page, and then there's a big donate button there. Made it super, super easy. Candle helps. And they issue your tax receipt for you. So it's not something that we have to do too much. Or if you don't want to do it that way, then there's e transfers again, and then we'll just take on that extra information. Follow us for our events that are coming up, follow us for our tours that I'm going to start posting up, because once I post the dates, I'm pretty sure that they're going to be full. And then it's just follow our stories, get engaged with us. I think one of the biggest things that I would like to take on this year, too, is getting that feedback or listening to what I'm hearing. I know that a lot of people engage with the Ella sanctuary because of the feel good. The educational piece has to be a part of this too. So what does that look like? Right. So we had to put in some tactics in that way, too strategies and building the rapport of the engagement process, too. But, yeah, I would definitely suggest going down to the sanctuary's website. I believe it's thealasanctuary ca and we've changed it a few times. And we also have a link tree. I don't really focus too much on Facebook. I feel like it's a place that I am hesitant with. And I would like to have a broader base on Instagram. So we have a link tree there that we make things very easy, too. For donations and sponsorships. [01:20:49] Speaker A: Heck yeah. Okay, great. So you're ready for your three questions? [01:20:52] Speaker B: Okay. [01:20:53] Speaker A: Okay. What's one thing throughout this process, this journey that you've been on with the Alice sanctuary and in your leadership and kind of finding your path through all this, what's one thing that you've learned about yourself that you were surprised by and you really like that? It's like a happy surprise that you found out about yourself. [01:21:14] Speaker B: Happy surprise. I think my tenaciousness, my perseverance, my discipline. There's three of them. My curiosity is another one, too. I don't know if I can just, like, I don't think I can just peg just one of those things because it's just such a, you know, finding the inner strength to continue doing things that are really uncomfortable. And, you know, even though you wake up that morning and you're like, I don't know if I have it in me. I really don't know if I have it in me right now. And every single minute, you're just resisting it, right? You're resisting. You're resisting. There's this momentum where you just. You wish you can just kind of turn back time and go right back into sleepy land and pretend none of this actually exists, but you don't have a choice. And I think through the fact that you don't have a choice, you have to show up, and it's time to be courageous, and it's time to be brave. And throughout all of those moments, it's going to be scary. There's going to be risks, but you got to do it. So a be determined with what you're here for. What's your sense of purpose? What's your purpose? What's your value? And being tenacious, because you have a family that depends on you, and you have to show up, right? So even if you want to run away, you need to be here, and they deserve that. And knowing that, which means you have to anchor into the strength. You have to anchor into that courageousness. Right? That courage. So that's not one word. [01:22:48] Speaker A: That's fantastic. All right, so what's one piece of advice that you would give someone who's trying to take a leap into doing something to change the world. Like, one piece of advice that you could give someone who's like, I want to do this, but, oh, my gosh, it just seems like such an insane, like, leap. Leap for me to make or so difficult or so challenging or so insurmountable. What's one piece of advice could you give to someone like that next generation, or perhaps even older generations of us, of people who are wanting to make a change but are kind of sitting on the sidelines, not sure how to get into the fray? [01:23:29] Speaker B: Listen. It'd be for me listening, because initially when I asked my, you know, question, presented it to the universe and said, do something, if I didn't listen to the breadcrumbs, then I don't know if I would be sitting here today, right? So I think there's always these moments in our lives that if it's in true, true alignment, right? If the purpose that you have the value that you have and you really want to change the world right now, sometimes we force what that might look like. We force the communication, we force the conversation, we force the interaction. We force the direction. And then we have to, you know, again, get back on the right path because it wasn't the right direction. And you learned that the real hard way. Right. Because we want to have such an impulsive. We have an impulsive need to just get from point a to point b too quickly, and we don't get in between there and listen to all the signs. So I think, like, anybody who really wants to create a large change in the world around them is one. Pay attention to the clues that are being presented to you. Pay attention to the pathway that is being presented to you. So it might mean that you have to step back and watch. It might mean that you have to observe something for a second. It might mean you have to humble yourself a little bit and be like, oh, I was wrong, you know, I made a mistake. Maybe I shouldn't have done it this way. I should have maybe learned from the situation and do it this way, right? So I think listening is such a key value to really knowing and centering yourself and making it so valuable, right, because you don't want to just say, I want to change the world. You want to honestly do it, right? Like, there's something inside of you that has the impetus to be like, I want to change the world. Well, you're not going to change the world if you're forcing it. You have to figure out a way and you have to learn, and you have to listen to what the world is presenting to you in order for your message to be really genuinely and authentically heard. [01:25:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. All right, last question before I get. Before I ask the question. Are you a dessert person? Do you like dessert? [01:25:39] Speaker B: No, not really. [01:25:41] Speaker A: Okay, that's gonna change. [01:25:42] Speaker B: That's a hard question. [01:25:43] Speaker A: It's gonna change. It's gonna change how I ask my question. [01:25:45] Speaker B: Then podcast over. [01:25:47] Speaker A: Could we erase the last one? Here's the question. What are the top three? And there can only be three. The top three best vegan spots anywhere in Alberta. [01:26:04] Speaker B: Well, I would start off with vegan street. [01:26:06] Speaker A: Shout out to Vegan street. My initial question was, is there a better carrot cake or a better piece of cake anywhere in the world than vegan street? But you don't like dessert, so I. [01:26:15] Speaker B: Do absolutely love their carrot cake. [01:26:17] Speaker A: Vegan street, you're doing all the right things. We love your food. But that carrot cake is. [01:26:21] Speaker B: It is. [01:26:21] Speaker A: All right, so vegan street number one. [01:26:23] Speaker B: Yeah, of course. I love Canela. I love Veronica. I love what she stands for. I love her purpose. I love supporting community. And she supports community. So vegan Street, Canela. And then I am not goodness. I guess the attic would be my next one. Because of what they see stand for. Their sense of purpose, too. Their strength, their courageousness, their inclusion, their voice. And then, of course, on top of that, the pizza. [01:26:57] Speaker A: Heck yeah. Awesome. Well, this was a great interview. Thank you so much for spending the time. [01:27:01] Speaker B: Thank you. This has been a pleasure. Excellent. [01:27:05] Speaker A: Excellent. Any last words before we close off? [01:27:07] Speaker B: Oh, gosh, I don't know. Do you want to start that road again? Nope. I was going to try to say the philanthropic. Philanthropic. [01:27:17] Speaker A: Did I say philanthropic? [01:27:18] Speaker B: Philanthropic. It's the th. That I'm missing. No, other than that, this has been great. Thank you. [01:27:25] Speaker A: Awesome. All right, everyone, please make sure to support Alice sanctuary. It is very, very worthy of your love, respect and support. I will see you all in the outro. Mike, drop the beat. [01:27:40] Speaker B: One step. [01:27:43] Speaker A: One step. [01:27:49] Speaker B: One step beyond.