Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: All right, let's, let's go back into career stuff. So you know, you'd, you'd been in college post band, you're kind of like what am I going to do? You get into designing records. That's working for however long it were, however long it worked. At what point do you kind of like find more of a like okay, this is my career path, this is what I'm doing and I'm going into the marketing ish world.
[00:00:21] Speaker B: Certainly aquent partners, whatever you know, they would. Portfolio. It was called, it was called. There's a bunch of like this, this one company that I working for forever that, that was just a temp company, you know. And that short run gig model fit well with still trying to play music, you know, so, so you would come home and pick up as many freelance jobs as you possibly could doing who knows what anything, you know. Like I was working at Scholastic for a while doing like educational books. I was working at Chanel Packaging company where I would you know, move things over just one micron and be like yay, you know, or whatever. And, and I think that that that was good steady work, you know. And, and it was, it was a easy toe into the pool of what corporate people expect or demand or need. And, and, and, and that, that's definitely what led me to, to what I would consider working stuff. You know. Like from there I went into, you know, working in publishing for a while I was working at Variety and Deadline which are, but that's after I moved out here. But, but either way, like working in, in, in a magazine situation is, is very different than, than working in a packaging situation. But, but each one of them gives you this, this bigger picture to the, to the design world. Right? And then my fascination with film and movies and directing and making short films served me well when I started having to shoot commercials or wanting to shoot commercials. And, and now where I work now here at Togo Run, it's like everything that I've learned we do. So it's, you know, we, any one of the campaigns, campaigns that we put together for our clients is going to involve print, web video and, and writing and, and, and music and, and everything. It's just the entire package that you have to hand off.
Everything has to work together seamlessly and, and inform each other, you know. And, and it, it's, it's, it's really cool. Like, like, like to draw from lyrics and music and rhythm visuals and moving visuals and having a succinct message that ties it all together is like strangely what is my favorite thing about my job is that it's being able to make all these different parts work together to communicate something right? And ideally move people in some way. Like. Like move them to buy, move them to, like, you know, care, move them to donate, whatever. Whatever it might be. You know, that's. It's. It's pretty amazing when, when, when. When you get so many different people working on something with so many different objectives and so many, you know, deliverables that. That have to. That have to hit and all have to work together.
When you make it happen, it's always a joy and a surprise again, you know, like, done it a million times, but it's always a surprise when it works. And I don't mean that like, I don't mean that like I'm surprised we pulled it off. I mean that, like, I can always be surprised on how well or how uniquely something can work. And if once you're not being surprised about it, then I feel like that's, you know, maybe that's a good time to try to figure out something else to do. You know, if it doesn't bring you.
[00:04:18] Speaker A: Any joy, then, well, I'm interested in that specifically. So very often when I. So what I do is, my background is. I'm a therapist, but.
And I worked with, like, addiction and mental health for a long time, but I started working in coaching, like, business coaching. And so I spend a lot of my time with, like, CEOs of different companies and their teams and all of that. And very often when people talk to me about retaining people, like keeping really talented people in a company, the way that I encourage them to think about it is the most important thing for people to stay in a company and actually want to be there is their connection to their boss.
What do you learn from your boss? Not, like, do you like your boss? I'd say even arguably, you can have a boss who's a bit of a jerk or even a total jerk, but if you're learning a ton underneath them. So are they being stretched? Are they getting the spotlight? Are they being put into situations that challenge them? Are they learning? It's always better if your boss isn't a jerk. But just to put that dynamic out there, we're not saying that people have to be perfect. That's the number one thing. Second thing is if they like who they. The team they work with. And I don't mean like them personally, but, like, does that team enable them to do the best level of work they've ever done? Like, does it stretch them, does it pull things out of their way? The third thing would be do they like what they do? And this is where I'm real interested in some of those temp jobs that you're talking about, like moving things over a micron. It's like, did you necessarily like that or was it just like, it's just good work to have and then the last thing that keeps people in a job, but it's usually the first thing we, like people talk about is how much they get paid, work, life balance, benefits and all those things. So I'm real interested in your perspective on that because like, you know, you being like obviously like a clearly like really creative person passionate about what you do, you've done a lot of gigs that you weren't super passionate about, but it was just good work to have versus what you're doing now where you're clearly like, it lights you up and you'd stop doing it if it didn't light you up.
[00:06:12] Speaker B: I do agree that if you, if you don't like the people or don't respect or don't find some camaraderie with the people that you work with, that's, that's really a big stumbling block in any, any, any work situation. I think you have to feel respected and feel respect for, for, for whom you're, you know, the people that you're with. And you have to believe in what you're doing matters in some way, you know, and that's not always true. Like, that's not always true in the sense of like it doesn't matter to the world, but it might matter to you that you've, you've successfully accomplished this in X amount of time or you've, you've successfully did what was asked of you and everybody is happy and the returns are there and whatever, you know, that that's, if that, that's sort of like the bare minimum of the stuff, whether or not you feel fulfilled about it. I don't know how often that happens for people. Like, like there's like. And I'm not saying it doesn't happen for me. What I'm saying is that it's like I feel like with, with the stuff that I was doing, like, you know, the creative stuff that I was doing was 100% fulfilling is in memory, right? Like, like you, you and, and it was lucrative disaster. Like there was, there was no financial benefit to being in a band like at all. And, and like, you know, but some of the best experiences I can remember are, are coming home, barely breaking Even, but coming home to nothing. And, but I just went to Europe and I just did this and I had my first, you know, cheese sandwich on the, the Rhine or whatever the it might have been. You know what I mean? Like, like, it's just these, these, these experiences that you could not have purchased. You know what I mean? I don't know if any job is, is, is. Is going to give you everything that you need out of life, because it can't. Like, it's, it's.
It. It needs to, it needs to pay you well and it needs to respect your time. That's not part of the job. And, and both of those things are really high hurdles. Like, like for anybody. Like, like for any company. Like a company doesn't want to pay you well because they want to exist in as long as they can, and that usually means. And they want to maximize all of your time. And, and, and so that's like a given in the exchange. Like, I want as much money as possible. You want as much of my life as possible. And, and, and so the only thing that, that makes it the, the only, the only compromise in all of that is, is the quality of work. Right? And, and do you find joy in the work? And does like, are you feeling satisfied with, with, with what you're creating and, and with the people you're creating it with? It's always a, it's always a battle trying to, to, to keep those things in, in, in balance, you know, I don't really know what I'm talking about at this point, but that's sort of like the, the existential drama of having to work, you know, it's like, not much more about like, like, dude, but.
[00:09:34] Speaker A: Like, just to hit on it. It's funny because you keep saying, like, I went off tracker like first, like, totally, totally clear, like really, really clear. But also it's like this existential, like, struggle of having to work. Like, dude, this is my day in, day out. And especially like, when I'm speaking with like, people from younger generations, it's like, yeah, like, listen, work is hard. And you got to like the idea of like, when you said like a job being fulfilling, it's like the way I speak about it is like perfect jobs, like, being sold the idea that you're supposed to have a perfect job. So everyone's supposed to have a job where like, has this idea. It's like, I want to have a boss that, like, it's great. I want to have a team that's great. I want to love what I do. I want to get paid. Well, it's like, yeah, like, I mean, yes, of course, and jobs like that do exist, but I don't know a ton of people who have all four of those things lit up and, you know, a lot of, A lot of what I suggest to people, it's like, what's the most important thing to you right now? So, for example, it's like going back to you, like coming back from tour and totally like, we barely broke even and now I'm going to take these, going to take these gigs to get by. And they're not like perfect jobs, but they're going to do. It's like, well, okay, do you do what someone wants in their career is their ability to take off with their band or take long vacations or be like a digital nomad or what are these things?
Figuring out what's the most important thing to you helps you pick the right kind of job. But also like career jobs and being in jobs for a long time where you get more to that perfect job, that's hard. And it takes a lot of work. It takes a lot of mastery of what you do so you can earn your way into that space or you start your own business and you build it up, which also. Owning my own business is like, that's got its own set of like, nightmare nature, nightmare challenges.
[00:11:08] Speaker B: That work life balance thing is always a challenge. And I do want to do good by my family and I do want to, like, you know, I do want to be able to go on vacation. I do want to be able to do, you know, what I want to do when I want to do it. But, but there's what's. And I don't know if this is from people that grew up, when I grew up or, or work in. Matriculated into the, you know, work world at the time. But like, it was pretty brutal, like, in terms of like, overnights and like, you know, and, and like, or. Or whatever, like just, just the expectation certainly in the PR and, and design and there was like 247 just, you're on call, it's. It's happening. You know what I mean? And like this, there is a part of me that needs a place to bury my anxiety. And that's a job or a task or a. Whatever, you know, like, it's like this, a need to focus your energy somewhere, right? And so when I'm working, boom. And it's in it, right?
Either I've been ruined by that and now it's vacation time and I'm like, what the fuck am I doing? I don't, the fuck I'm doing. I don't know what's going on. I don't know what we're doing. What are we doing? We're parasailing. Okay, we're parasailing. Let's parasail the fuck out of this. You know what I mean? And like, and there's this, like, there's like this, like this. You know, the number of things that I've gotten fixed on my house is insane because it's like the weekend and my brain is still like, and like gutters, gutters, gutters, gutters, gutters, you know, or like, you know, leaky faucet, whatever the. It is. Like, like there's zero chill that has come out of having worked in this industry. And, and, and it's, I'm just now getting exhausted by it, you know what I mean? Like, like I, I, I just now can sort of like, okay, I need to take five minutes, sit in the sun, count to 100. Just to just tamp down whatever, just to focus for just a second, you know what I mean? And like those, those kind of little tricks really make it possible to get through these marathons of never ending fucking marathons of work, you know, like, like, like you finish your marathon, okay, get ready for the next one. It's now, and you go, and you're on a zoom and you're back in it and you're like, you know, and you, and you just have to be like, stop, I'm getting a coffee. Boom. And you go get it and you come back and it's very tiring. I don't, I don't know what, I don't know what the perfect job is because I have never had it. I've instead found or fashioned or pretended I had or, you know, little bits of paradise within the same firestorm. That's a horrible analogy right now in the same sort of shit show of, of, of just what work is. You know what I mean?
But there is, is, there's, there's, there's, there is tons of accomplishment and joy and camaraderie to be pulled out of the worst situations. Like working at, like when I worked at a restaurant, you still, you felt that, you know, when, when I, when I worked at, you know, when I was a courier. Like, you know, you, you, you still feel, feel this community, even though what you're doing doesn't matter, sort of, or, or is, is hard or is whatever. You, you, you almost have to find purpose in what you're doing and you do. And there is like there is purpose in there. It's just may not be the purpose that you thought it was going to be or it may not be the, the, the payoff. Besides financial might not be what you were originally expecting, but there, there is until, but that's also a trick that you tell yourself to stay in a horrible situation. So it's, it's, it's trying to find the truth for you. And literally for me now it's like you know, checking in with yourself with your body, with your, with your, with your family, with your, with, with everything. Like how are you feeling right now regardless of how you feel about work? How do you feel? And then making those adjustments to make sure that you don't disappear into the job in a bad, bad, bad way.
[00:15:45] Speaker A: I want to ask a question about mentorship. So very early on you'd mentioned Jeff from Discord and Mentorship. Whether it's like a great boss who kind of acts like a mentor or someone who's not your boss but just mentors you along, these are like difference makers in people's lives in general. And it could be professional, it could be outside of that. So what mentors have you had and what has been the impact?
[00:16:15] Speaker B: Well, I would definitely start with my, my graphic arts teacher in high school. Huge mentor, just.
And that's Mr. Zimmerman and that was at BCC High School, you know, and like he, his class had, you know, a dark room, a two dark rooms, one for photography, one for lithography. He had a printing press, silkscreen, like any, any, anything in that realm of stuff that I loved and that I still love and that, you know, know, analog was all analog. So it was all like there's this added level of amazingness of actually holding an acetate that has, you know, this on it or cutting ruby lith or, or amberly to make a screen. And like there's, there's a tactile realness that I'm so glad I got to understand like the origins of. I, I was starting when there were. We were still doing the origins, you know, and then to transition into computers.
I was psyched and I still am psyched. I love them moving back. I still, I still try to go back to analog stuff as much as possible just to try to lose the sterility of what can happen with the digital world. But definitely Mr. Zimmerman, certainly Discord Records and Jeff Nelson and Ian Mackay in particular. Jeff Nelson for really just being an open resource, you know what I mean? And, and, and happy to share you know, information that, that you don't it by, by, by helping someone become better at something.
Not, you know, it, it just makes it better. Like everything makes everything better in terms of like, like if he hadn't. And Cynthia Connolly is another person who discord person who, amazing photographer, amazing artist who also was doing a lot of record covers and helped me like, you know, understand the process of laying out a record on boards. And then you know, everything that I learned from them I took into, you know, transitioning it to the digital world with the, you know, first couple of Macs that came out. I love that mentality of sharing information and when I work with people, if I ever mentor or help or am the leader of a project or something like that, I always want to share what I know, if it's a value.
But also it's not a one way street at all. Like, like I, I, I, I might know the ancient techniques of, of stripping, you know, files together on a board and that helped me figure out this and I know this and I know that and you're going to get a 20% gain on the press and I know all the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? Like, like just that I know but then somebody else is like yeah, well you can just take a PDF and do this. It's like oh yeah, great. Cool. Cool. So it's like, it's, it's a, it's, it's a very like you, this is a continuum that we're on, right. And there's a lot more to come and, and people really tend to just stay on their one little knowledge of, of what is needed information. But there is stuff that happened a long time ago that people already figured out that you should apply. Right? Simple things about composition, simple things about mediums and, and, and analog things that, that filters and, and digital filters and other things aren't quite really going to get you to what a real thing is. You know what I mean? So it's, they're getting a hell a lot closer and, and knowing when you no longer have to go rely on these old ass things because there's things that are coming or things that are currently here or there's you know, staying open to what's ahead and what's going, percolating and what you might be able to add to and what you might be able to create.
It's not like a one way street with mentoring people. You learn from each other. Always. Always.
[00:20:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Awesome. All right, final question about career work stuff before we head into the last three questions of the interview explain to anyone here like neophyte, don't know what is your role? What does your role look like? Like what are you responsible for?
[00:20:49] Speaker B: Essentially as creative director, west coast creative director for Togo Run, we're kind of equally split between pr, aor, agency of record, basically commercials and stuff, marketing and communications. So it's all in that realm of supporting companies in the healthcare industry. So we work with companies in the healthcare space. If it's an oncology drug company or a medical device or it could be a non profit that we work with. Mission Plasticos is, is, is a company that travels the world, travels the United States giving free reconstructive. It's something that's so easy for these people to do. Like they're so these, these volunteer doctors are amazingly good at fixing cleft lips and burn contractures and, and other things. But these are, you know, there's a. Communities that don't have access to these life changing procedures. So they go out and they, they do that. So what we might be able to do on the pro bono side is like, you know, is, is to, to develop media opportunities or, or create a campaign that explains and, and, and motivates people around what they offer. And, and we created with them a breast reconstruction program for post mastectomy women in the United States who don't have insurance or can't afford insurance or can't, you know, so it's setting up a program, making the logo, making the video, making the website, inspiring the surgeons to join, getting the word out to the women that need the service and making local events or whatever it might be, or generating interest in the media, getting. So that's, that's sort of the PR side of what we do. It really brings together all aspects of stuff that I've done over my entire life. It's got obviously a lot of video, a lot of film pieces, there's a lot of design logos and, and a lot of writing, a lot of really I feel like that's the genesis of anything that we do. If it, if it doesn't make sense and if it's not on message then then you're not really accomplishing what you need to do because this is all about for us, communications and connection to people.
[00:23:08] Speaker A: Let's head into the final three questions. We call them the crucial three. You'll know the reference. We are going to ask you three questions. They're going to scale up in difficulty. Okay, so question number one.
What's something that you learned about yourself like professionally or personally even that you had to really work to change and you've now been successful in changing it. So it's not something you're still working on. You've got it done.
[00:23:42] Speaker B: I almost had my answer until you said, it's one that I fixed.
I think accepting, accepting help.
I think that one of the side effects of having grown up in a DIY mindset is that yes, you can do it all or make a stab at doing it all, but there's a bandwidth issue.
And if you can get past that trust issue and actually be open to receiving help and knowing that somebody else, you know, might even be, you know, is probably better at their task than you, so stop micromanaging. I think that if you, if you, if you are, if you bring more people in to help more competent people into help, it just gets an exponential result. And that I think that has been a huge help in, in moving projects forward in a way that they need to move forward is to just let people do their job and, and, and, and get people involved. Don't try to do it all yourself.
[00:24:58] Speaker A: All right, question number two. Through your professional path, and I am thinking professional here. What's something that you learned about yourself that you were like surprised by, but like pleasantly surprised? Like, wow, I didn't know that about myself. And if, and it feel good about it.
[00:25:13] Speaker B: I think that the thing that has surprised me the most is in, in my professional career, like things that I have to do and that I do is to, is to.
This is going to sound like a contradiction to my wife, but to be organized. And I think that there's a lot of chaos that, or what seeming chaos in, in, in creating stuff. Like, like it's, it's somewhat of a desperate thing at times and sometimes it's just a surprise. And like you're. The first idea is amazing or you're digging for another idea and then, then you, you know, so there's like a, there's not a, there's not a linear process necessarily to, to a lot of, of what my job is like in terms of the initial idea of stuff. But what follows had better be a very organized achieving of that goal after the vision of it is made.
There has to be logical steps to get to it. It can't be chaotic. Right. And I was surprised to find out that, that I do have this very linear, technical, like, like side to my, to my thinking that, that once, once the creative side is fulfilled. And this is, this is, this is why I think maybe I got pulled to graphic arts is. Graphic arts is all about process. There's. There's like anything that's beautiful about graphic arts is a. There's a process involved. There's a. There's an industry involved. There's a. There's a. There's a certain machine of some kind behind it. And so I still love the machine side of stuff. So. So taking that loose, you know, amorphous idea and cranking it into the machine, that's going to move it forward. I'm glad that I know how to.
That. That. That I kind of get the machine side of it, you know, in a way that I didn't realize I had that discipline.
[00:27:09] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. All right, last question.
You have an extensive, like, very extensive history of creation and being around other creative people. Sometimes things get celebrated because it's like the right thing, the right time, right packaging, and not just music. Like, whatever it is, whatever creative idea, and sometimes just like luck of the draw, whatever it is, things just don't get the attention that maybe we think that they deserved. And it could be our own creation or someone else's. So thinking back, and I want you, this could be across. Like, it doesn't have to just be music, but it could be artists, it could be writers, it could be anything. Is there anyone that stands out to you as being like, now that book or that record or this idea, like, whatever it was that was special and it didn't get the eyes on it that it deserved?
[00:27:56] Speaker B: Yeah. Million. But, But I think that, that, that has a.
What I've come to see is a slight flaw in the logic of. Of that equates, like, success to worth, you know, like, Like a, Like a, Like a unit. Moving success means it's of value or that it. Or that it. Or. Or if it didn't do this, then it. Therefore it didn't achieve a goal, you know, And, And. And. And I get that. Like, yeah, like, obviously big star, you know, I mean, like, like great band, you know, beautiful music, horrible management story of. Of, you know, whatever.
But, you know, there's like a.
It's. It's a beautiful story. Like, yeah, I, I'm. You know, it sucks. They had to live through it, like, from a, you know, from a, Like a. From a disappointment and whatever. But, but the, but the effect is like, there's, there's nothing wrong with those records. You know what I mean? Like, there's, like, there's nothing to be ashamed of on any of it. And, and it's. And maybe, you know, they didn't want to be the, The.
The sad, beautiful story that ended not the way they wanted, but that it's still a beautiful story. Like they. Maybe they. Maybe that's the story they wanted to be in. But to me, it's like a. It's like a. It makes it all that more special that. That. That it exists. You know what I mean? And so, like. So. I don't know. I. I feel like there's. There's a part of this is. Is. Is justifying your. You know, was it Sour Sweet Lemons? You know, it's like, justifying, like. Well, you know, we didn't sell any records, but, you know, we got some. We got a fan base that loves us or whatever.
[00:29:58] Speaker A: But it's true.
[00:29:59] Speaker B: It's like this weird, like, dilution of interest, you know, or of commitment. So, like. Like we talk about some of these bands that are smaller and you don't have all the information about them. And I'm not talking about Swizz. I'm talking about like, anybody, like, any. Any band that. That.
That is small.
It's almost like sometimes they're loved more deeply because it's not as diluted. You know what I mean? Like. Like, if. If there's no doubt that. That you too, Maybe this is a bad example, you know, that you too, is way more popular than, say, the Faith or Meyer Threat. Right? Like, there's. There's just. Just. It is. Right. Or the Police. That's a better example. So the Police, for example, you know, huge successful band that I could give a. About. You know what I mean? Like, it's like this really, like. Like, like how. How into it can you get? Like, how into it of. And I know there are people that are into the Police, but, like. But there's sort of like a. Because it's been so distributed and consumed and like, the amount of value has been spread out over, you know, 50 million people versus the amount of value in, like, a small local band that is yours that you feel invested in because they're right here or because they're. Or because they work at your record store or because they're like, you know, there's. There's like this community connection that isn't reflected in units sold. You know what I mean? That. That. And therefore the. The. The love for that can be so much more. Less dilute, less. Less diluted, less. It's so much more concentrated. And. And. And like.
And I know that's. That's. This is like the language of the people that lost, but that's. It's. It's really like it rings true for me. Like, like there's, there's a.
I don't, I don't believe that the, that they, that you've. That there's a failure tied to not reaching an roi, you know, and that, and I'm only talking about art from a business perspective. Yeah, you better hit your roi like that, that, that's, you know, and you, you. But you don't go to business for an emotional response. You go there for a financial response. You go there for a, you're, you're there to turn money into more money and, and, and how you feel about that process, you know, whatever, you know, it's, it's. That's the job. The job is to do better for your client. And I just feel more drawn to doing better for your clients emotionally or spiritually or in a fulfilling way. That's not filling your pockets that I'm more drawn to. But I know that my job is to fill their pockets with money or help them. Trying to do both. I don't know. I don't know, man. It's weird. I gotta get over that. It's like this weird. There really is a weird thing that came out of punk rock where, where underlying guilt for, for financial success, you know, or, or, or an underlying disdain of, of, of those kind of trappings.
And, and I get it. It's. It's just a.
But even, you know, going back to Discord, it's just like. It's not like they wanted to lose money. They didn't. They're a hugely successful company that's been around for, you know, 40, 50 years now. And, and they did it with a very clear business model. You know, if you want to talk about. As business.
[00:33:50] Speaker A: Dude, I, I love your like, reflective nature here because like, no, like everything you just said there is like lit it, lit it up on 10 levels for me. Can I just give you a, give you an example from, from my, like, I'm going to give you two examples from my life and then we can, we can wrap up or you can talk more. Whatever you want.
[00:34:04] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:34:05] Speaker A: That small band, man. I love what you're saying. Instead of like all of it spread out across 50 million people. Maybe we're talking about 50 people or 500 people or 5,000 people might know about a band. There's this band from Calgary called Beyond Possession and they put out like a demo, a 7 inch, an LP. And then they had these like lost recordings that never came out until their discography came out. Kind of like a classic story. Their seven inch is, like, legit. One of the best seven inches. It's like, unbelievably, really well written. Cool recording for the time. Everything looks cool, everything sounds cool. It's just awesome. When I was a kid, there was, like, someone who was just a couple years older than us. So, like, I was like, maybe 16, and he was 18.
He turned 18 and he went and got the front cover of the 7 inch tattooed on his chest. And I don't mean like this big. I mean, it was like this. His first tattoo. First person I knew who had a tattoo. It left such an impression on me. You could say to me, a band that I love, but that I arguably love, that's way bigger. And I'd be like, hell, yeah, that band. That's awesome. Like, whatever band. Like Oasis. Oh, yeah, Oasis. I love Oasis. But if you said to me Beyond Possession, I'd be like, oh, beyond possession. Let me tell you this story. I never got to see them, but, like, when I was a kid, I had, like, a videotape of their last show. Like, there's something about Beyond Possession that lights everything up for me. And I'll talk for hours about versus a band, like a big band that I. That I like and like that kind of, you know, that. That everything doesn't have to have an roi, especially in the creative world, where it's like sometimes being that band that didn't. And Beyond Possession, like, toward North America, they were, like, on a big label for their lp. It just, you know, it's not a band that is, like, remembered outside of, like, a core kind of group of people. But, dude, that band is so special to those people, and that's, like, a great outcome. That's an amazing story in my perspective. To flip it to the business side, what you're saying about Discord, man, like, Discord, I think is the one of the coolest examples of, like, hey, like, those guys weren't, like, losing money. They were very smart business people who brought in their friends and, like, launched a million careers. Help people figure out how to do business and not be a dick. You can have a successful business and not be an asshole and have a return on investment and make things that happen. But you have to have a certain level of, like, deconstructing things, figuring out who you are, doing things the right way for you, while also learning how to, like, kind of, like, cooperate with other people. I think it's one of the most amazing business models and one of the most important lessons anyone could take professionally. Starts with. With that label. So I loved everything you said. It was super impactful.
[00:36:39] Speaker B: Well, just to bring it back around to current times for me, I think that this is a good example of when the ROI thing, right? So the company that I work for togo run for years was part of a larger company, Omicom. And this company had certain metrics that had to be hit, certain amounts of money, percentages of this, this and that, that, that returns on their investment. For your company, you had to generate X, Y and Z, right? And, and it's a, it's a sliding amount. It's or it's like, you know, it's, it's based on a shareholder desire for this or that. Right. And as the economy goes up and down and, and turns happen and our company during one particular downturn could no longer hit those thresholds or the company could no longer had to change the thresholds or couldn't even play the game anymore. We need to cut, we need to do this, we need to do that. The company went independent. My boss, she had never run a business that way, but she's like fuck it, we got to keep this going. So she took it on and it turned it into an indie company. And once we were free of those kind of random, kind of high percentages of X, Y and Z that have to be hit, we were able through ownership and we all people that everyone that stayed became a partner and everybody sort of like was more invested in this company. Part two and, and a huge part of, of what our company became was we increased our pro bono work. A huge like, like we, we have three pro bono clients who are over like you know, half a million to a million dollars. Whatever amount of fee is, is purely donated. Our time is donated to these organizations. The one's called Orbis which does flies around the world and fixing with eye care fixing people, people with issues.
Mission Plasticos I mentioned, you know, with the reconstruction and another one called Pure Earth which does.
Was all tied to lead poisoning and pollution throughout the world and how that's a health crisis and the way that industry causes these pollutants that are. So anyway it's like this, this whole give back that we would not be able to do if we were beholden to a shareholder, you know. And so that transformation of, of our company is one of the things that I think makes it easy for me to feel good about what we're doing. Like, like maybe I don't feel as good about each of the company. Maybe like the, the companies that we work for isn't something I would have chosen to do. Or whatever. Or. Or. And. And. But then I. But I'm open, you know, and we see that, yes, what they're doing is they're helping people. They're. They're. You know, there's a care. There's a love there. There's a. There's a. There's something they're doing, but it's so pure when you look at these. These, These.
These. Not charity organizations. These. These. These organizations that are there to gather funds, gather resources, gather volunteers to help people. And then we are one of those people that they gathered up, one of those groups that they gathered up. And we bring our expertise. We can't. We can't do surgeries, but we can do marketing, we can do campaigns. We can. We can raise the awareness about your company, about your organization, and to.
To go beyond the bottom line. To go beyond.
To. To be at this. Sort of like recognizing that it's your responsibility as a person in society, as a company in society to give back and to do something more than just make money and just take and just. And just generate and to multiply and. Da da da da. Like. Like, I. I love that. That. That my boss who did not come up in punk rock, didn't give. Doesn't know who. Discord didn't care about any of that.
Nothing. Like, not even It. It's not that sort of. That sort of compassion isn't unique or beholden by punk rock. Like. Like that exists and has existed everywhere, wherever it is. You have to cultivate it. You have to push it forward. And. And there are people that do it, even if they don't like bar chords, even if they don't like whatever. You know, there are people that just. They. They.
It. It's. It should be. It should be a universal thing to be recognized and to be celebrated and. And. And I'm glad that. That the company that I work at, that's a huge part of what our new identity has become in the last four years.
[00:41:33] Speaker A: Hell yeah, man. All right, so we're at the end. Anything that you want to say as we're closing off. Anything you want to hype up? Anything at all?
[00:41:39] Speaker B: I mean, I guess I could just. Since we talked a little bit about Swizz, I'll just say that we are finally, like, in. After years of procrastination, you know, putting together about. To release the box set of all of our previous releases and in a. In a lovely package that. That I Hope justifies the 30 years of me dragging around this in Boxes forever. And now I can put that box away or go ahead and burn that box or whatever it might be, but all the source files and all the original pictures and all of the original artwork and sketches and whatever are being polished up and put on display. So that's a big project. And then, like, as I mentioned, the Swizz book that we've been working on is coming out in, I think, October of 2025 with Akashic Books, which is a. An amazing record, amazing book company out of Brooklyn. And other than that. No, no, just keep working. That's what I got to do.
[00:42:42] Speaker A: Who's. Who's putting out the box set?
[00:42:46] Speaker B: It will be. Discord is. Is. Is manufacturing and distributing it and.
But we were putting it out on the original label, so years ago, Swizz. Swizz was never on Discord. We. We always talked too much and, and, and sort of got like, easy kid, you know, so we never got invited. We never got invited to the big table. And that. That's a. You know, obviously it. I could say that's, you know, you talk about, you know, you talk about how, like, things that should have happened but didn't or, you know, but. But, you know, you know, that, that's, that's what's charming about the band. Like, it. Just because of the. Because of our propensity to put our foot in our mouths. That didn't happen and that became part of our identity. So, like, you know, we were. We were the band that wouldn't shut the up and paid the price. But so, so that's coming out on a combination of Sammich Records, which was our original. Reviving that label from, from the late 80s. And Hellfire, which was our own label. Same thing. It's. It's the original pressings, but boxed and manufactured and distributed and wholly handled by. By Discord, which is a huge, huge undertaking. If it didn't. If it, if they weren't engaged, if they weren't involved, then it would not be happening as it's gonna.
[00:44:07] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, I can't wait, man. Listen, this has been a really. You know, I never know when I'm interviewing someone who's like, you know, I've. I've listened to their music for most of my life and like, you know, they're business people. You never know quite how it's going to go. And there's always that like, kind of little bit of nervousness before you talk to someone where you've. You've had a relationship with them, unbeknownst to them, you know, through what they've put out.
You had that story like that you're talking about, but this has been super awesome, man. I really, really appreciate your time and how accessible you've been, so thanks so much.
[00:44:40] Speaker B: Oh, thanks for having me. I appreciate it. And now that I've. I've successfully procrastinated on my deadlines, I'm gonna now dive in and. And try to. Try to meet. Try to meet what I got to do.
[00:44:51] Speaker A: All right, everyone, I hope you got as much out of this as I did. And we'll see you next time on One Step Beyond One Step.
[00:45:06] Speaker B: What's that beyond?
