Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: There really is a weird thing that came out of punk rock where.
[00:00:03] Speaker B: Where.
[00:00:06] Speaker A: Underlying guilt for. For financial success, you know, or. Or underlying disdain of. Of. Of those kind of trappings.
And I get it. It's. It's just a.
But even, you know, going back to Discord, it's just like. It's not like they wanted to lose money. They didn't. They're a hugely successful company that's been around for, you know, 40, 50 years now, and. And they did it with a very clear business model, you know, if you want to talk about as business.
[00:00:40] Speaker B: That was a clip from today's guest. On this show, I get to interview a lot of people, and sometimes those people who have. Or people who've played a large part of my life through the output that they've. They've had in the world. And it could be like a business thing, or it could be a music thing, or it could be an art thing. In this case, it's actually all three of them. Today's guest is someone who I've really followed the music that they've made and the art that they've created. But I also became really fascinated with the company that they're a part of and what they do. And part of that is like, you know, having my own company and trying to build a company that has, like, a good brand that actually, like, speaks to things. I really started becoming aware of what was going on with Jason and the company he works with. So with that, this is an episode that I've been looking forward to, and I hope you get as much out of it as I have. If you could please subscribe to the podcast. My name is Aram Arslanian, and this is one step beyond Jason. Welcome to the show.
[00:01:52] Speaker A: Thank you for having me. Hi.
[00:01:55] Speaker B: All right, so for the uninitiated, those who don't know who are you and what do you do?
[00:02:01] Speaker A: My name is Jason Farrell. I am a. I'm the creative director, one of two creative directors for Togo Run, which is a.
It's a pr, AOR marketing agency and solely focused on health and wellness companies. So. So it could be oncology, beauty, anywhere in between. And in addition to that, I'm a longtime designer of record covers and performer of music. I grew up in the D.C. washington area scene, playing in bands there and supporting the labels and the bands through graphic design and playing together. So that's. That's pretty much what I do.
[00:02:44] Speaker B: Heck, yeah. Okay. Lots to unpack in our time together. I want to just start the easiest place if I think of someone who grew up in punk and hardcore, especially where you grew up. And what an important geographical point that is for the whole culture that you and I grew up. In terms of music, I don't necessarily think of like marketing, PR or any of those things. So how did you find your way into this career path?
[00:03:10] Speaker A: The, the short trajectory of it is I started riding skateboards when I was 13 and then that quickly led me into punk rock, which was. They were kind of married at the time. And that quickly led me into playing in bands. And I think that that. That's a pretty common story for a lot of people growing up in the 80s. From there, I think, you know, the twists and turns are. Are simply. I. I landed in a school in. In the D.C. area in Bethesda, Maryland, which, which had an amazing graphic arts class that I love loved by the. By the time I was a senior I managed to work my schedule around so that I had three classes. Three, three periods in this one class with my, my teacher, Dr. Zimmerman. Mr. Dr. I wish. Mr. Zimmerman. And. And it, you know, just. Everything that I ever liked about art and that I didn't. Everything that I liked about art was in that class. Everything I didn't like about art wasn't. So, so sort of some of the pompousness or some of the, the highfalutinous of art that you know, that I wasn't necessarily drawn to wasn't amplified. What was amplified was sort of the technical side of replication side. Like I love silk screens. I love like good graphic, you know, clean or dirty if needing to be. But you know, this, this sort of this, this industry side. And I say that in a very admirable way of, of.
Of art. And you know, my band started doing record covers for ourselves that led to me doing record covers for other people. And all the while as, as I grew doing both of those, I started to realize that bands don't pay anything and record covers pay something. So. So really it's, it's the only thing that graphic arts at the time was. The only thing that was. Was a steady income and. Or any income for that matter. And that you know, after that first band broke up, I'm sort of muddling around in college wondering what I'm going to do with all these loose credits. And it's like, oh, I guess graphic arts, let's be. You know, and got my focus got out and since then I may continue to volunteer for bands but. But the only paycheck is through graphics. So that's what I'VE been doing for, God, 30, 40 years.
[00:05:34] Speaker B: I got so many questions to ask about this. I want to start with one that I'm always fascinated with. So you figured your way through punkin, hardcore and kind of found yourself doing all this art for your own band and for other bands. At what point did you start charging and how did you learn to charge for what you're worth?
[00:05:54] Speaker A: When I started working for Discord Records, which is a. Still running to this day. One of the. One of my huge inspirations as from a musical perspective and then also from a graphic perspective with Jeff Nelson. They're, you know, the. One of the founders is. Is such a huge inspiration graphically and so supportive and so super cool and helped me a lot and, and you know, everybody over there is super cool. I started doing record covers for friends and not charging money because they're my friends. Why would I. And then started doing a couple of record covers for Discord, starting with Fugazi Severin, my friend, my ex bandmates band and. And a couple others that, you know. And then, then suddenly I'm getting like a thousand dollars. I'm like, what? You know, like, it was like crazy. So really, that, that's, that's. It's not so much that I chose like, I want a thousand dollars is just that like, you know, Jeff Nelson said, you're getting $1,000 for this. You know, and here's the list of deliverables and here's the. And. And you just, you know, crank through it and just get it done. And you're. I was just psyched that I was helping out with the Discord record, you know, and that led to a lot. And still to this day, you know, that was 93, 92. And I still do record Cover Storm, you know, sort of. And it's funny, like, whenever I, When I have had a new job, like when I've, you know, I've worked through a bunch of different companies lately. The one I'm at now I've been at for 10 years and it's great, but each company that I've gone to, I've sort of had to strike through the contract that says you will not work for anybody. I was like, legacy clients will be allowed and I will work for my legacy clients because it's just like, you know, it's like, it's like my friends, like, I'm not going to say no because suddenly I work for Variety or whatever, you know, it's like, no. So. And everybody's been fine with that and just I think the fact that you ask is, is kind of like, oh, sure, do your legacy clients, you know, or whatever. But it's, it's a weird place to be in the music packaging because certainly in 92, 93, 97, 99, like, there was, there was a sort of a sweet spot of money was there. That money, for the most part is gone. And so now it's, it's just sort of back to like, yeah, you know, whatever, whatever you, whatever you, what your budget could bear, let's call it that, you know, and, and, and, and for me, it's not, it's obviously no longer my, My, you know, paying my rent. So it's, it's, it's a, it's a fun distraction opportunity to, you know, try new things, things that don't necessarily work in the corporate world and, and to stay connected to people that I love, that are doing things that I love. So, and not to say that that's not happening at work, but just, you know, this something that's been with me since I was 14, you can still sort of nurture that flower pot, you know, and that's great.
[00:08:46] Speaker B: Well, as being someone who's involved from really early days of doing, like, more graphic design, where there was like, a lot of things done by hand to being part of some of the first computer programs and mastering that and all of these things, the landscape's changed a lot. Any advice for younger people who are kind of heading down this path of being part of like, the graphic design or maybe being. Heading towards something for marketing around essentially like, how they figure out their worth and how do they start, like, basically charging what's appropriate for them. And the reason I'm asking is what I do is kind of like a. You basically just have to say, this is what I know I'm worth based on the outcomes. But it's like, you know, like, how do you, how do you. You do that confidently and like, really make sure that you're asking for what's right without undercharging or vastly overcharging.
[00:09:34] Speaker A: You have to really think about what the, what the project is and what the end result of the project is. So like, you know, if you're, if you're let's just say working for a small bakery who needs, you know, a logo for xyz, then, you know, that's a big difference than a, than a, a campaign for Coca Cola or whatever. So, so it's like if there's a. If there's, if budget has been allocated and it's fair to what, to what there is, then, then, you know, use that budget and, and use it, all of it. And, and because you are worth it if you've been, if, if you're filling that role that's yours to, to use and allocate and, and, and, and, and make the best thing that you can and to set aside the time that it's going to need. Set aside your time and be paid for your time to do what you need to do to deliver. Right. You know, and I think it is. You bring up a good point about like being what's fair. You know, I think that a lot of times people have to create a budget, right? And sometimes those people are creating it without the knowledge of what actually is behind the number you wrote down. So, so for instance, like we need three spots. Okay, great. And I want it to be, you know, I want it to be Milan, I want it to be Italy. I want it to whatever, you know, just like, just whatever somebody threw down into a PowerPoint or threw up into a PowerPoint and is now saying make it and you get this much money. It's not so much that people forget or ignore the, the, the development time, the, the creative time or the productive time to, to make something happen, but maybe they just don't explode it and realize it. You know what I mean? It's sort of like people look at things as a unit, like, here's the package. Boom. Okay, but, but if you open that up, there's 50 people hired to get that done. There's 500 hours involved. There's this, this that. It's like. No, but it's a 30 second spot. It's like this, like. No, no, no, it's a, you know what I mean? It's like a much broader piece that, that in the rush of, of creating a budget or in the rush of creating a pitch deck or whatever, just make sure that when you were finally called on to deliver that you can, you can sort of clearly point out the challenge based on the numbers that might have been presented to you. And so at that point, yes, push back, push back on time, I think is a real big one. Like, like being forced to meet a deadline that is somewhat random, you know, is, is, is one of the worst things that, that I have found myself coming up against. And money, you know, money is certainly important to everybody, but, but your time, you can't invent hours, you know, if they're just, they just, there's a certain amount, you know, and if this thing's going to take 15 hours and they want it in two. That just doesn't work unless you just hire a million. It's just, those are the things I advocate for is, is we'll make sure the budget's there, but make sure the time is realistic and make sure that the, that the, the expectations match the reality of the budget and, and, and, and there. And at that point have the conversation of creative ways to maximize a production and maximize the end result, appearance of a production. Even if your resources are limited, be them time or money.
[00:13:06] Speaker B: You know, I want to push on something that I'm real interested in just from a. And we could maybe start from like a record perspective. But of course, like, take it wherever you want. One of the things that I say a lot about putting out records, like a great, A great record is the easiest part of putting out a great record is writing a good song.
Because that's the one thing that you're in control of. Outside of that, it's like you hope you get a good recording. You hope it's mixed well, you hope it's mastered well. You hope that the person who's doing the art does like a really, really good job and kind of captures, captures what you need. You hope that the record label doesn't drop the ball. You hope stores buy it. Like, all the stuff that's associated with it is so big and there's like a ton of records that have gone under the radar that actually were cool records, but maybe the recording sucked or the mixing was bad, the mastering was off. The art is atrocious, like, whatever it is. So the easiest part is actually being in a room with your friends writing a cool song, being like, that rocks. So if you think about that, that whole chain of events of things that could go in the favor of a great record or go against it. The part that I know you know all those parts well, but being someone who's designed like multiple packages, record packages, how do you help capture something that's going to like, really support a record? What's your process?
[00:14:25] Speaker A: Well, first and foremost is to listen to the record and then also listen to the people that made the record. And, and I think that, you know, yeah, you're balancing.
Using the client basically is the people that made it and, and, and the people that are paying to have it replicated. And, and so, so balancing those two often different opinions about what a record cover should be is the, is the starting point. But it's weird because like, like, and not even just record covers, but anybody like, you know, you, you in theory, people hire you for your. Your expertise in this field, right? So you have your recommendations. You say, we really need to go, you know, we need to. You need a red record cover, you know, or whatever. And then they're like, oh, but we love blue. And you're like, well, I'll tell you the problem with blue. It's this, this, and this. And so please, let's go with red. And then the record company's like, green is what sells. And you're like, and, and, and you're. So at some point, at some point you're like, you know, I really don't think we should use Comic Sans on the COVID And they're like, no, it's our vision. And, and, and at some point you gotta be like, you're the client. And like, like, if you're not, maybe you're right, or maybe I now I need to make it work somehow. Like. But if that's really. If every. If your whole team is, you know, it's yours, you know, like, I will support you in any way that I can. And sometimes what happens is, you know, there's. There's times when I've just been left my own devices and I just do whatever I want, right? They're just, they're sort of like, no, we love what you do. Just do it, you know, or we don't know, just make it cool. And that's fun, you know? And then there's other times when they're like, no, no, no, no, no. I, I put. I, I moved the T over. I kerned it over three points and I, And I need you to put it back there and you're like, okay, you know, like, like, it. It just depends on if they're sitting on your back and, like, pushing the buttons for you or if they're. Or if they're like, sitting in the back, like, looks great, you know, it's either way, you fill the role and you, and you.
[00:16:37] Speaker B: You.
[00:16:39] Speaker A: You try. I try my best to, to enhance whatever is there, you know, and, and, and make sure it doesn't go down a completely wrong path.
But sometimes if they grab the wheel and that's where they want to go, that's. That's what you do. I don't know, you know, in terms of, you know, you bring up other points of like, you know, I don't know if a great record cover would sell anything. And I don't know if, like, you know, even that great song, great production, great everything, all the way down the line, if the timing's off. Then nothing happens. And then it's. It's just so random that you just. You just have to make your piece of whatever the process is as rad as possible so that if all the stars align, yours is, you know, in. In the right track with everybody else. Like, as long as. As long as it's, like, it works, you know? But I don't know, man. I, at this point, I just really, like, I think the, like, a record cover in general is, is. Is an archaic thing. You know, there's. There's certainly, Certainly packaging. Like, you know, because the whole experience of the front, the back, the inside, the label, the booklet, the whatever, all that stuff is, is kind of left to 15, you know, 1500 by 1500 pixel square. That, that shows up in your, in your Spotify.
I don't know how driving the image is to, to people now. So I think it's more important just to make something that's, that's compelling and kind of interesting and real and supportive.
[00:18:16] Speaker B: Well, you know, this is great, like, what you just said, like, maybe the idea of a record company is, like, a little archaic. You know, I'm having two reactions.
[00:18:23] Speaker A: Record cover. Record cover. Not a record company.
[00:18:27] Speaker B: No, no, record. Record cover. I'm having, like, two reactions to it. Like, and, like, one is just, like, totally practical. Like, oh, yeah, that makes a lot of sense, of course. And then the other side is me. Like, oh, my God. Like, what are you talking about? I'm thinking about all these records.
[00:18:39] Speaker A: Not, not to me. To me. I, I, I still like, I, I. And, but then again, I'm. I'm old, so it's like, you know, there's. There's a, there's a certain, like, you know, mashed potato vibe about it that's just like, I, I, you know, like, I need that side. I need, you know, like, like, where's the COVID You know? You know, let's read the credits.
[00:18:56] Speaker B: I know.
[00:18:57] Speaker A: And it's like, it's so funny.
[00:18:59] Speaker B: Like, I was like, a lot of what you're saying about, like, bands being picky or labels being picky, like, I've been that. I've been that guy where I'm like, now it needs to be over, like, 3 millimeters, like, whatever it is, right? But also as, as things move and expression moves, creativity moves, like, what. What holds relevance, you know, and why I loved everything you just said. I'm super curious about something, though. So people often, when you're thinking about someone who's. And I'm not even just talking about record Covers at this point, I'm also talking about clients you'd work with from, like, a PR or marketing perspective, like, anything that you'd be bringing your talents to today.
When people have either their vision or their product or the thing they're trying to put forward, they usually have all sorts of feelings attached to it, right? And, like, if you go to a band, like how people feel about their music and their creativity, but they're expressing it through your expertise, or at least that's my understanding of it. How do you manage your own preferences or even your own ego? When you're having these kinds of conversations with people who are going in a direction that you think is, like, not right.
[00:20:03] Speaker A: There is a moment when you're finally like, fuck it, fine.
You know? Like. Like, I think that. I think that there's. And I've been proven wrong. I've been proven that, like, oh, you were right, and I was hung up just like, I thought you were hung up on something. And. And.
And. But I. I like. I like that whole thing. Like, there's. There's. I think if you can. If you could get past that feeling that you're right, you know, and. And. And that. That. That.
That ent. Of. Of the way it should go. Even if someone is wrong, like. Even if, like, what they're. Even if what someone is suggesting is wrong and it pulls you in this direction, it might get pulled again and. And lead everybody somewhere that nobody expected, and it actually ends up being this. This. This unique solution that makes everybody be, like, pretty psyched. Like. Like, it could be like this weird mashup that you weren't expecting. And. And one project we were just working on at my company, Togo Run was.
It was kind of like that, like, somebody suggested this song that was, you know, let's. Let's make us. Let's. Let's make a. It was a pitch deck for. It was a pitch for a commercial. And. And we're like, let's. You know, someone pulled out a song just out of their ass. It was just like this. Like, oh, let's do this song. And I was like, oh, my God, that's a horrible song. You know, but it was like, such a weird one. You know, it's like, yeah, okay. And. And, you know, while someone else is fighting over this and this and this. This is like, well, forget it. I. Stop. Let's. Let's. Let's stop arguing about it.
Let me just make it real quick and then we'll see if it works. You know what I mean? Or like, let. You know, make. Let me make a quick comp of what this might do. And. And, you know, if you.
That's the thing that I think I try to stop myself from doing, which is to. If I know something is wrong, I'll fight it, you know, But. But if I. If I. If I spend all my energy saying why your idea is not going to work, then I'm actually missing an opportunity to. To prove your idea is not going to work or prove myself wrong. That. Oh, yeah, no, there is something in your idea or some aspect of your idea is. Is. Is actually. Yes. You know, like that when you can smash two things together that. That. That shouldn't make sense, but they do, and you make something new. You know, it's. It's. I try not to lose those chances, you know, Even if I think I'm 100% right.
[00:22:35] Speaker B: Well, what you're describing to me has a lot to do with like, band room writing a song and being like, it's got to be this way. No, it's got to be that way, dude.
[00:22:44] Speaker A: That's. And that's where I learned it. Like, I think that, you know, when one of the bands that I was in span Blue Tip, it was like me and my best friend, you know, and. And we're both playing guitar and. And we're both, you know, he's a Scorpio, I'm a Capricorn. I don't know if that means anything to anybody, but, you know, and it's just like, you know, different kinds of bullying each other and. And, you know, like, it's. It's weird how. How if you enjoy that fight, if you. If you embrace that fight, and it's not a. It's not a negative fight. It's not like a spiteful fight.
The weird compromise doesn't feel like a compromise at all. It feels like a. Like a melding of. Of. Like an alchemy melding of. Of things that your lead and his pewter couldn't. Like, you know, imagine within this gold or whatever the. You know, whatever. It's just like the. It's just a weird. It's a weird thing when. When you have, you know, some percentage of something and they have another percentage, and when it comes together, it adds up to 101 and you're like, what? You know.
[00:23:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, totally, man. All right. This is a little bit of an outside the box question, but so if we think back to, you know, you brought up discord, the idea that, like, you know, when the. When they were first Putting together or like, putting out records. They were like, well, how does. How does someone, like, make a record cover? And they, like, took apart a record cover and then traced the outline and then made their own little thing so they could make record covers and then glued them back together.
One mind might be like, well, why don't you just find a plant to make them? Another mind would be like, well, why would I need a plant when I can just do it myself? And then, of course, all the stuff that Discord did, that really was such a touchstone for everything that's come since then.
So there's a nature of disruption, of disrupting an already established business. So the music industry had been this totally established thing. Discord comes in has been like, yeah, we're going to do our own version of that, even down to hand cutting covers. And it's undeniable what happened from there. So from being like, the idea of punk helping us disrupt established industries, has anything like that played out for you in your own career?
[00:25:01] Speaker A: I don't know that it would go to the level of disruption, but certainly the level of, of not.
Not accepting a standard operation, standard operating procedures, if they don't make sense. And, and, and the, the best thing that, That I, that I feel came out of for me that, that I take away from. From hardcore and punk and that kind of stuff is, is the, the, the do it yourself mentality, but also the like, don't let the fact that you don't know how to do something stop you from doing something.
Get in there and just start and, and, and you're not, you know, this isn't like brain surgery. It's not like, you know, it's not.
You're not gonna, it's not, it's not life or death. It's, you know, it's, it's. It's pretty safe. Like, what if you. You might mess up? But so what, you know, and like, just, just do it. And then, and then you, you start to feel your way and eventually, you know, shapes become recognizable and then suddenly you're running and you're in your.
And maybe the first thing you complete, like, you just think about, think about. If we're talking about songs like, you know, you write a song, your first song is probably not your best, you know, and then once you sort of clear your throat and get all your, you know, get through your first record or get through your. Whatever, it's eventually, you know, you find that you've been that. That you have a groove to what you're doing because You've. You've done it, you know, and so I don't necessarily believe in like, like the, like the sophomore slump of a band. Most, you know, a lot of bands, like, yeah, they. They having a better mastery of. Of communicating with each other, communicating and writing and being. Using your instrument and stuff. It's. I think that it. It actually helps someone to be better at what they're doing. But there's something adorable about the first attempt and, and, and there's like, there's something amazing about a pencil sketch that. That might just make me way more happy than. Than a finely rendered oil painting on the other side of it. You know what I mean? And. And so it's. It's for. For me, like the, the takeaway from. From. I'm going all over the place. But, but basically for me, the takeaway from. From punk rock stuff is just like to try to do it yourself and to recognize at any point along the way if something has value. Right? And, and, and. And. And to. To hopefully, you know, know when to stop. Like, like, don't overwork this because you're just. Or that there's something really cool about that or there's some element of that that should not be continued to be sanded and refined and worked upon because it's going to lose its teeth. It's going to lose its. Its. Its funkiness or it's going to lose its. Its. Its uniqueness as you try to quantify it and, and. And polish it for whatever, you know, those. That's really it, you know, to try it and then to make sure that you don't squeeze the life out of it in the process.
[00:28:13] Speaker B: All right. I wanted to ask you something about that specifically, but it's going to go back to the music part. Do you mind if we just focus on Swizz for a second?
[00:28:20] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:28:20] Speaker B: So if I think of Swizz, what was going on musically kind of like from the musical landscape, Swizz was so different. There was. From my perspective, I'm real interested in yours. It's very, very unique. Every record was a clear progression from the next music, art, everything about it. And it seemed to end at the. At the right time. And it's like you didn't like, keep squeezing it or keep pushing it. And this is obviously from like a fan perspective, a band that I grew up with, like, I'm. I'm 50 now, so I got Ish into Swizz, like when I could access the records because I lived. I lived in Canada, right in Calgary. Swizz to me is kind of like the perfect story of a band that just did their own thing and was recognized for it and knew when, when to end first. I just want to get your thoughts on it before I tack it into a business thing.
[00:29:14] Speaker A: Yeah. So for most of us in that band, you know, Sean had been in Dagnasty at the beginning. You know, Sean was. Sean was a singer of Swizz.
And he, you know, like, he sort of got plucked from obscurity to, to sing for Dagnasty because, you know, he was just like, we were. He, me. A lot of people. There's a lot of different people who were going to shows at the time who were just like, they weren't in bands, but they, but they, you know, they just, they just stood out because they did crazy backflips on, you know, whatever, you know, just. They're just there and they were. They're neat. Everybody had a look or everybody was not. It wasn't like. It was just. It was just fun, you know, know. And, and, and, and, and he's a super handsome dude and like, and, and so, you know, Dagnasty approached him to sing and he's like, I've never sung. Let's do it. And, and, and that kind of like, nudge that would never. Might not have crossed his mind for years, if at all.
You know, suddenly you find out that he's got a unique voice, he's got a. He's got a whole bunch of conviction and he's got most importantly a crazy talent for writing. You know, like, like the simplicity, the cut and dry, the very like, like blue collar, poetic, like, just straightforwardness of his lyrics still is, is. Is aspirational for me. Like, I'm just. Holy shit. Like, how, how did you get from A to B so quickly and just cut me along the way? You know what I mean? It was just like. And, and you're there and so, so he had already been in a band, didn't leave on good terms, but, but the rest of the band, the rest of the band. Swiz had been in bands and whatever, but this was the first time that, that we had accomplished anything. Any, anybody, any. Any of us. You know, this is our first recording session where it got released, our first tour, our first, you know, record, our first. Everything was a first for that group of people. People. And, and you know, you talk about the trajectory of the music, it was, it was very much, you know, inspired by Slash ripping off what we liked at the beginning. And then by the end, as we had cleared Our throats and gotten to the second record and the third record, you know, finding things that were more true to what our collective group of people not stealing as much, you know, or. Or when we steal, getting it. When we steal, getting it wrong. You know, Like, I think that's the. You know, there's. There's bands that, you know, they. They try to rip off, like the Rolling Stones. And I'm not comparing us to that. I apologize. But, like, you know, trying to rip off the blues but getting it wrong. And then in so many ways that made it so right and so perfect, you know, like. Like there's. There's an attempt to ape something or to mimic something, and your distortions of that become what define your offering, you know, and so that's kind of what happened with Swizz, I think that we, you know, clearly were derivative of. Of stuff that had been happening two years prior or three years prior. Everything else had at the time in D.C. was going in another direction. This was right before Fugazi did what it did. This is kind of right after Rights of Spring. Kind of like, you know, things were getting funky and things were getting, you know, just. We were trying to. No, no, no, we miss. We want something aggressive. We still like this. We like Metallica. We, like. We want aggressiveness. This is an opportunity for us to get this energy out because we are young and we have this energy and we want it out, you know. And so we were at odds with what was going on, the trajectory of the scene, maybe more in line with some of the straight edge stuff that was coming out New York and everywhere else, in terms of, you know, the amount of guitar chug chugs and like, whatever else. So that. That kind of like, happened at the same time. Not necessarily what we were doing. So we were. We ended up. The reason we stopped and we did is because nobody seemed to be interested at the time. So. And we were tired and, you know, so we. We just said, fuck this. We were done. It wasn't like a. It wasn't like a. We've done it. We've reached the pinnacle. Let's. Let's. Let's get out while the getting's good. No, it was like, there's nowhere to go. Like, so, you know, timing as well. Like, I think that if. If we had been four years earlier or four years later, maybe. Maybe some. Something different would have happened. But it's all good. Like, it was a fun. I like it. It's just done. It's like an encapsulated thing that happened. And here it is.
[00:33:55] Speaker B: You know, what was it like to revisit that though, as like someone now who's had like, had a really great career, who's like, you know, much. Who's, who's lived a lot of life since then? What's it been like to like, revisit playing those songs live?
[00:34:10] Speaker A: A few years back when Salad Days, which is like a documentary about the DC scene, came out, Swizz was asked to play and we thought, oh, that'd be a great opportunity. So we did.
Or the artist formerly known as Swizz. Not, not really officially Swizz. And, and, and it was great because it's, it's, you know, we all have been playing music, we all keep doing it and, and, and that sort of triggered this other thing where we, you know, like, okay, let's, you know, all of our music has been out of print for a very long time. So we've, we've put a lot of energy towards reissuing that which is coming out this year. And then that kind of led to wanting to finally close this box up and just be done with it, but also wanting to make sure that like, you know, we've decided to sort of do. We did a book. We basically made a 250 page book that is like that, that also not so much like, you know, on Thursday we traveled this far and we played six songs. But it's more about like, what, what's the. Trying to turn this into its own creation in terms of like, you know, what's the negative space around the band? What's the, you know, what, what was life like then? Or what am I thinking of it now? And how, how wrong did I get my memory, like, you know, how twisted. And it's really this thing where it's just like, it's not like zero fact checking, it's just literally like, how do you remember it?
And it just sounds ridiculous to me because that's totally wrong because I remember it this way. It's not like a fight or anything, but it's just like this embracing of the, the elasticity of memory and the, and the, and the, and the, the.
But also being like, look, you know, I was a dude from Bethesda. It's like, you know, that was a skate kid, you know, and this is what I was doing. So, so in looking back, you know, like at this age, looking back 35, however many years it's been, you. You start to see something endearing and charming and, and cute about it, but also special and unique. But Also universal. Like, everybody was doing something like this. Everybody in their lives has something that. That is like a.
Where you feel something is happening for you for some special thing. You know what I mean? And. And just because, like, you know, this group or this band or this whatever, maybe sold more records or. Or had more shirts sold or. Or whatever, don't let that deny. Don't let that sort of like, soften what, you know, you feel right now. Regardless of if anybody else is ready to hear it or anybody else, you know, thinks your art is like, is this or that. If you feel it and like, physically, then you've accomplished something. And I don't know. I like that.
[00:37:09] Speaker B: I got one more question on this and anything else. You want to talk about it before we go more into kind of the professional side. But you'd said the band had kind of ran out of steam and maybe there wasn't a huge. You weren't getting a lot of feedback where people were like, give us more. You hit that place where it's like, it's probably time.
But Swizz is like a band that continue to have like a life after its life because, you know, like some kids. So again, I grew up in Calgary, Alberta. It's a major city in Canada, but, you know, pretty far away from where all you guys were. And especially at the time, there was like, no Spotify or this or that. So a kid like me is getting like, Swizz records after the fact. And not only that, you know, Jade street puts out this, that discography. And like, Swizz is like a band that continues to actually like, amplify and grow in popular, popular popularity over the years. I don't know what punkin hardcore, how it's resonates now, but at least during my generation. So was there a point where you realized it's like, oh, this band actually has the legs still. Like, people are still interested in this band. Like, at what point did you notice that? Or is that something you just. You're oblivious to?
[00:38:17] Speaker A: Well, before I talk about if I, If. If I notice it, I want to say, like, sort of why that happens or why. You know, where I think that happens is because. Because there's a lack of information and, and therefore leaves a lot of room for people to pour themselves into it or to fill in the blanks and then, therefore, it means a little more to them. There's something really.
I hope that people still get this feeling. But like, you know, for me, you know, when I'm first buying records and I'm buying Kiss, and I'm buying AC dc And I'm. I'm. I'm. I have a very limited amount of information, you know, like, I don't have a video. I don't. MTV didn't exist, so I don't. I don't. I don't see what they look like. And then this comes back to record covers. It's like, what do I have? I have this piece of vinyl, and I have this record cover, and I stare at this record cover and I listen to this record. And then when I get bored of the record cover, I flip it over and I look for that. And then you start reading the credit. You know, it's like when. It's just. When you're. When you limit that much about it and you're listening to music and you're not also being fed a visual, like, here's the guy moving and here's. You know, and like, you know, then your mind creates the stuff and, and you start attaching yourself to it and your memory, and then it attaches to your memories and. Or even, you know, like you're sitting there with your friends and you're listening to that music. It becomes less about the music and more about the friends. And, And. And as you continually staple more and more things to this record in your life, it. It's. Now you're invested in it. You know what I mean? And, like, so around that time, you know, we didn't. We didn't have much presence. We didn't have a huge label. We didn't have anything. So there's just this sort of like, whisper of like, oh, do you remember this? Did you hear about this? And like, you know, and so there's not really a.
There's not really a complete dossier of. Of. Of what to expect of this band. And I get it. And so, so you're. You're. You're left to fill in the blanks. And I think that that makes it more personal in a weird way. Like, my favorite band ever was, you know, the Faith, which is like a band I never got to see. And, and therefore, in my mind, every one of their shows must have been this weird, dark conjuring of something. Something. You know what I mean? And like, and it must have been the most amazing thing. And, And. And then you start to hear, like, oh, no, I was 17. And like, you know, I was. You know, my mom picked me up and. And she dropped me off at the show and I threw up beforehand because I was so nervous. Like, no, no, no, no, no, no, you know, like, it's like a. So. So it's. But, but that's. But to me now it's even more endearing to think that, like, that something like another high school kid playing in a little janky band that probably sounded like, could tap into some element that has expanded well beyond the. The.
[00:41:12] Speaker B: The.
[00:41:13] Speaker A: The humble existence of what it really was to be something for other people. You know what I mean? And. And it. And it's like this, you know, quasi religious expansion experience that. That, that. That.
That is. There's this crazy power in it, you know, and. And. Or a beauty or something in it that. That. So I'm happy that if that does that for, you know, if our. If Swizz did that for somebody. Because. Because I know of a lot of bands that did it for me. Minor Threat, Faith, you know, just a million of them that. That just.
I filled in the blanks and. And I love them.
[00:41:52] Speaker B: So that's. It reminds me of something that in the. I think it was. It must have been the mid-90s. First time I ever saw someone wearing a Swiss shirt. I was like, I couldn't believe it. It was like a band on tour that was coming through Calgary. And I was like, where did you get a Swiz shirt? And he's like, oh, I just made it myself. And it. Yeah, it just blew my mind. Like, of course I. You know, people silkscreen all that. That kind of stuff, but just that idea is like, dude, that is so sick. Like, good for you. And we end up having this big conversation about Swizz. I can't remember who it was, what band it was. Never saw the person again. But that kind of like that moment of the way that you're talking about this, like, you fill in the blanks yourself and it becomes part of your landscape. And that story for me was like, oh, yeah, I guess I could just make my own Minor Threat show or whatever shirt. And that idea of something means so much to you because of how limited it. Information you have. And it becomes so much of a landscape of it where almost it's sometimes kind of better if you don't, like, meet the people involved or get the true story because you can kind of live in this, like, mystical version of it that. That meant so much to you.
[00:43:00] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:43:01] Speaker B: One step.
[00:43:04] Speaker A: One step.
[00:43:10] Speaker B: One step.
[00:43:11] Speaker A: Be.
