Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: This was for us also a chance to talk to first generation hardcore and punk kids, straight edge hardcore and punk kids. And, you know, to get the story firsthand was also really important for us. So that was also a driving force to do an update on the book, you know, and make it look and make the book that came with the record a real booth this time.
[00:00:28] Speaker B: That was a clip from today's guest.
You know, there's something that I love about business, and really this part of the thing that I love about business, really, I get from punkin hardcore. It's when people just do something because they think it's a good idea and they just take a leap.
There's no promise about the results. There's no promise that anyone's going to care. There's no promise that it's going to be successful. They just want something to exist and then they do it. And they want it to exist because it matters to them, it interests them. Today's guests are a great example of that. And I've known one of them a little bit for many years, just casually. And then one of them I've just met at a show. But I've certainly followed what they've done both artistically and when I realized that they had put out this great new project that we're going to talk about today, I knew I had to have them on the podcast. So before we get to it, please subscribe to the podcast share. You know, do all that great stuff. We'd really appreciate it. This is One Step beyond and I'm Aram Arslanian.
Mark jp, welcome to the show.
[00:01:51] Speaker C: Thank you for having us.
[00:01:53] Speaker A: Thank you. Ibrahim, good seeing you again.
[00:01:56] Speaker B: Yeah, man, it's great seeing you. Also, it's like, dude, you don't age. You're like the exact same age from the first day I met you.
[00:02:04] Speaker A: All right.
[00:02:07] Speaker C: People tell us that he should be in a boy band because he looks like a boy all the time.
[00:02:13] Speaker B: You got to come out with whatever your regiment is here, like your diet and exercise regiment. You could sell that. All right, everyone. For the uninitiated, for those who don't know, who are you and what do each of you do?
[00:02:28] Speaker C: Well, my name is mark and I'm 57 years old now.
And in my professional life, I work as a city manager for the city of Almere, which is the seventh to largest city of the Netherlands. So I'm the boss of 3,000 civil servants and hopefully I'm doing well with that. But you should ask the employees that.
And from a more lifestyle Point of view. I turned punk in when I was 14. So we're 43 years further. And punk rock and hardcore ethics are still the way I use my life.
Being vegan, straight edge, that kind of stuff. And what I liked about your intro is that my idea of being into punk rock is always question everything. And the answer to that for me is do it yourself. So that's basically how I live my life.
[00:03:32] Speaker B: Okay, man. Awesome.
All right.
[00:03:35] Speaker A: My name is JP, 51 years old, living in the city of Haarlem, just outside of Amsterdam. And in my professional life, I'm a designer, slash art director, and I have my own agency.
[00:03:48] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. All right, so there's a lot to talk about today, but let's just start with the thing that, like, really caught my interest. Tell us about the book, you know, and again, you guys take it wherever you want to go, but I am just utterly delighted that you two did this. So what can you tell us about it?
[00:04:05] Speaker C: Okay, I'll start off, and JP can fill in the gaps that I'm leaving here. But we wrote a book that's called We Could Not Do Any Better, and it contains the history of European straight Edge from, let's say, 82, when Straight Edge started in Europe, all the way up to, like, 2024. But I have to say the focal point is more on the first 25 years than the last 15, because that's the time that we really lived it through and were part of it.
And so JP and I were in a band called Birds of a Feather, and we were doing tours throughout Europe and touring throughout Europe. You must know, a ram takes up a lot of time, and even when distances are short, it can take, like, hours and hours and hours. So we were in the van with the band, and we had members from different sort of famous hardcore bands like my own. My own band, Betray, was a straight edge band from the late 80s. There was Jeff from the Griffiths, that was a straight edge band that was around from late 80s to, like, early 2000s. And then we had Big Ma, who had been in Manlifting, Banner and Main strike, of course, NJP, who had ran value of strength for, like 20 years.
A magazine. So we were in that van and we were like, talking about our past and the present at that time. And we were a straight edge band with people from over 30, which at that time, like 2004, 2005, 2006, was like a crazy idea that you could be straight edge and over 30. Now here we are, we're both over 50. You are over 50 and Rolex straightedge.
And we were telling each other the stories of all the events that we went through, the bands that we saw, the people we met. And all of a sudden we had this idea, like, we should. We should keep those. We should preserve those stories somewhere in. We should capture those stories in, like a book. And we were working on a concept album. Jp, maybe you should take it from there.
[00:06:20] Speaker A: Yeah, maybe. What we also discovered when we went to shows is that kids, they were a lot younger, like often like 10 to 15 years young. It was like a different generation. And what we noticed is that they didn't really know about the history of European hardcore, of the European scene in general. So for them, the path was already paved and the scene was already there. So while in the van, on our way to shows, we told each other stories about our past and how our shared history was slowly fading away. So in 2006, 2007, when we worked on our LP the past, the Present, which is a concept record about 25 years of straight ups in Europe, we basically decided that we had to write down these ideas in a story or in a book. And remember at that time there were no books about hardcore punk in general in Europe. And most of those books that were out there, they dealt with the US or the uk. So luckily in the last decade that changed a little bit. But this is basically how our idea got started. To accompany the LP with a book.
[00:07:30] Speaker C: Yeah, so at that time we made a gatefold record. So in one side of the gatefold there was the record, and on one side of the gatefold there was like a 12 by 12 inch book for which we interviewed people.
And of course there was not. I mean, social media was not as widespread as was today, so we had a hard time finding everyone.
And some people refused to cooperate because they thought we wouldn't pull it off. So why would we spend our precious time on two crazy kids from. From Europe, from the Netherlands, and help them with like a lot of questions? Because we did those questions by email or we sat down with people, but of course, you know, with people from Norway or Spain, we couldn't sit down. So we sent them like a bunch of questions through email. And that would have cost them like two, three, four hours to answer. So a lot of people didn't participate. And then the album came out with the book and then those people were complaining, why aren't we in the book? And we're like, yeah, you didn't answer.
So at the time we sort of, you know, this was like 2006 or 2007. Immediately we knew that we could do better because there were people and stories missing. And also the print quality of the book was rather disappointing. It was more like a black and white book. And I literally mean black and white. There were like no shades of gray in the printing. So it was sort of, especially for JP Standard, him being a designer, he was, like, really disappointed.
So at that time, we knew that we could do better, hence the title. We could not do any better of the second version of the book.
And so when that record came out, the book was not very widespread because it was only for people who bought the record and was expensive at the time. And it sold out actually pretty fast. I think 700 copies were made. They sold out pretty pretty shortly after.
So a lot of people were not able to get the book anymore. And then we were sort of exhausted and disappointed at the time. And we kept talking like, oh, we should do better and we should interview this guy and that girl and that woman and that man and that person. And we kept on talking about it. And the list of people that we should interview got longer and longer and longer. And then there was this show in belgium for the 8000 scene. I think it was a reunion show with liar for the 8,000 book. And we just went there and interviewed like seven or eight people in a row that day. We didn't see any of the bands. We just sat backstage and interviewed all these Belgian people, which was like three months before, before COVID came along.
So there was a really nice starting point for us. And then when Covid came along, everybody was used to what we are doing now, digital meetings. So we could interview all these people very fast. You know, we could speak to people from England one day and from Norway the other.
So that's. That's basically the approach we took. We made the album, got a first version of the book, weren't really satisfied, dangled around for like 12 to 13 years, and then picked up the work again.
[00:10:56] Speaker A: Yeah. So basically the Lyre show in Belgium was a starting point, like, and we reached out to everybody in Belgium and we had a chance to interview everyone at one show. And that was basically the starting point for the new version of the book.
[00:11:14] Speaker C: Yeah. And we had talked to Franco, we had talked to Francoise when she came. She lives. She's Belgian, from Rise Above. She lived in Washington D.C. and she came over that summer of 2019. So we interviewed her just by chance, like, okay, she's here, let's talk to her in case. In case off. And then you know, it cascaded from the, from the Liar show.
[00:11:36] Speaker B: You'd mentioned the.
The history had been fading.
If we think of. Of a. A record label and a group of people who have always done a great job of documenting what they do and preserving what they do and, and really showcasing the true story, it would be the people from D.C. you know, people who are involved with Discord and just the. How they continue to release like kind of archival recordings and talk about these things. It's pretty amazing. But of course that's Discord. Like that's like one of the most iconic, if maybe not the most iconic record label from punk and hardcore.
So if we zoom out and we think of the stories that you're talking about, why does it matter?
[00:12:20] Speaker A: This was for us also a chance to talk to first generation hardcore and punk kids, straight edge hardcore and punk kids. And you know, to get the story firsthand was also really important for us. So that was also a driving force to do an update on the book, you know, and make it look. And make it. Make the book that came with the record a real book this time.
[00:12:50] Speaker C: And it's interesting what you.
How you bring Discord into the equation because this is the total opposite.
This was like.
For me it was really important to get the LARAM story right because I grew up on Laram. They. I literally lived like 10 miles away from them. And at the time they were just amazing. I mean they took speed in music to never heard before speeds. It was just. It was insane.
But they also, they were totally DIY and they were not documented at all, which I think is one of the great assets of especially European punk rock, where there were so much squats and there were so much things were temporarily which was sort of ingrained in our culture. It was there for a while. A while could be like three months or three years and then it would be gone and period.
And that was also something that was. That was eating me from the inside that there were all these important people who had like a lot of influence on the lives of other people. Like for instance, Larum on my life. We wouldn't have this conversation if it wasn't for Larm. You know, I was like 14 or 15 when I met their singer who lived nearby me. And my first underground punk show was probably the first laram show they ever played. And it was just like I was so scared. I was terrified at that show. I was like 14 or 15 and there were all these people dressed in leather and there were drug use and there was violence and. And I was just like, this is amazing. How can I get more of this?
So my life changed through laram. A lot of people's lives changed to Man Listening Banner. And a lot of people's lives changed through Main Strike. And it felt such a shame that we didn't document that. So we had to dig in what JP said, talk to the people who lifted and are still alive at this day. But also we felt a sort of obligation to the scene that made us to who we are right now, to show other people how did we become what we are? You have to understand where we're coming from. The bands we saw, the squads we went to, the people we met, the events that took place, the fan scenes that were made.
There was just an urge for all those things to be documented. And in our book we say it's our history of the European Straight edge. And the undertake of the book is a history of European Straight edge. Because if somebody from Norway or Poland would have written it, it would have been a different book. So we felt the need to put down our history and that's what we did. And I think that's where the similarity is with Discord. They wrote about their history and that's what we did as well. And I'm not putting ourselves on the same page as this board, but what a funny. A funny thing is, we. We went back and forth with Ian a couple of times and so he.
He corrected some stuff we wrote about him in the book, which was great. And then when he got the book, he sent us like this really nice. Well, you know Ian. So he was like, really nice to us. And then somebody else said, like, it's like God reviewed the Bible.
We thought that was the biggest compliment we could get.
[00:16:43] Speaker B: That's amazing, man.
[00:16:45] Speaker A: What I would like to add to Mark's story is that like, the backbone of our book consists of the stories of these two, three important Dutch bands. So it's basically like we have a chapter about Laram and everything that happened in that period. We have a chapter about Profound which became later on Man Lifting Banner. And that chapter includes like all the bands that started to pop up and started out playing in that era. And then we have Main Strike.
And for the period after Main Strike, we used all the Dutch bands like Vitamin X, Reaching Forward, A Step Apart, but also our own band, Birds of a Feather, as stepping Stones. So for each era, we interviewed people from all over Europe to make the story as complete as possible.
And basically we stopped interviewing people when they started telling things that we already heard. And stories became similar. So that's when Mark started scraping text, you know, no. Double.
[00:17:48] Speaker B: Yeah. So I'm going to, I'm going to push a little, little bit more on this. If you. And if the three of us said to someone, hey, why would it be important to know the history of Discord? Or why would it be important to know the history of Bad Brains? Or why would it be important to know the history of youth of today? Like, there'd be a lot of. I'm sure there'd be a lot of different answers, but, you know, they're culturally significant bands and culturally significant record labels, so why is it important? Not just for your book, but if you're thinking about like any of these books that are kind of coming out of punk and hardcore that are about, let's say, scenes or about like a certain time or about a certain band that maybe isn't like in the lexicon of the most famous bands. Why do any of these things matter? Like, what's the point of, of people doing this?
[00:18:38] Speaker C: Well, I would say they're life changing for the people who experienced it. And I think that's the, that's the great thing about punk rock. I mean, you could have your own punk rock scene in the middle of nowhere and, and not be physically connected to anything else that's happening in punk rock, but you can still be sorry for saying it this way, punk as fuck, at your particular space and place in history.
And I think that makes it worthwhile to document these things.
And the only reason we documented it was for ourselves. I mean, we had like no idea that we would get the response that we are getting right now. We had no idea that we would be in a podcast with you because of the book. We wrote it because we wanted to put down our history and what we experienced is important for us. And I think the examples of the bands that we mentioned before, they mean a lot to many, many, many people out there. And I think it was just a shame that their history was never put down because they are socially and society societally significant, period.
[00:19:58] Speaker A: But that's, that's also the feedback that a lot of feedback that we receive is that from people is that like it's, it's like we are reliving our youth. You know, it's like part of me growing up that you wrote down in a book. And yeah, basically that's the big, the best compliment you can get. I mean, that people identify themselves with something that happened like a long time ago, but without glorifying the past.
Let Me make that clear. But it's, I mean, it's just like when I hear things like that, it's like, okay, yes, this is, this is why, why we did it.
[00:20:42] Speaker C: Yeah, it was very cool in the early beginning. We released the book last April and I think in early May we got like a message from some guy saying like, finally a book about me.
I thought that was great, that was worth all the effort.
[00:21:01] Speaker B: Yeah. The reason I wanted to push on that question specifically is you're going to have these kind of like cultural icons, let's say like a minor threat or, or something like that, but just a degree off of that or a few degrees off of that. You have all of these zines, you have all these venues, you have all these bands, you have all these promoters, you have all these people like booking agencies that are a part of creating something that is deeply meaningful, like totally life changing. And does every single band and every single person deserve their own book? Well, I guess it's not even about deserve, but is the idea that the main story isn't the story, it's part of the story. But there's all of these fabric, like all these things that create this thing and they're literally life changing. And I love the idea that people just say, hey, this matters to me. And as long as it just matters to me and my friend here, it's worth all this effort and I hope it matters to someone else. That idea of just doing something and kind of like taking a leap and being like, I don't even care if there's an audience because right now there's an audience in me and the person I'm doing with. That to me is like the essence of punk and hardcore. And I don't want to say anything, this isn't intended in a negative way about modern punk and hardcore at all. It's just that modern punk and hardcore is a much different beast in that you have legitimately huge bands that are literally making a living and all these huge festivals, which I think is beautiful and wonderful. But going back to this core idea of Laram or a man lifting banner, it's like they're only doing it because they care and they believe in something and they want to share it. And there's no idea of doing anything beyond, if you're very lucky, maybe recording a demo or if you're very lucky, traveling to the next city. There's something so beautiful and powerful about that that I think it's worthy not just of a book of like hundreds of books.
[00:22:57] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree but at the same.
[00:23:00] Speaker C: Time, you're hinting on a paradox. Because of course, not every band and every scene and every is worth a book. And that's why what we approach was we. We take like these three known Dutch bands as a backbone. It could have been. It could have been different bands, but, you know, we grew up with these bands and they're significant. And we also had people like, coming up to me, hey, you interviewed me, but I'm not in the book. And I said, yeah, because your story wasn't worthwhile for the bigger story that we were trying to tell. And for instance, I don't know if you know these books of Ian Glasper, who wrote books about the UK scene. One is called Burning Britain. And he doesn't band by band. And I really admire his work. But some of his chapters are like, hey, we were in high school, there were two punk kids. I started a band with these two punk kids. We asked somebody else to join, we rehearsed three times, we played one show, we made a seven inch. And then he goes on to the next band and he repeats that story and he repeats that story.
And those stories for me are not interesting. So I had the id.
Well, I, Me and JP had the idea of like a large DIY story.
How you make your own scene, how you make your own life, what you have to pay in the price, maybe in your further life, your professional life or your, Your career or your, maybe your, your family, if you choose the path of hardcore. And some of us get a family and they get a nice house and some of us end up with like, shitty jobs and rental places and. Well, we wanted to show how you could contribute to that hardcore punk rock scene moving forward and how that intertwines with your own personal life and how great that is if you're friends.
And we want to show that friendship. And I think we sort of accomplished that by interviewing just our friends. So we snowballed with our interviews to a certain extent. If we had to speak to someone we didn't know or had never met before, we just spoke with them because they were not part of our history.
[00:25:32] Speaker A: And the story would be difficult too. I mean, the people that we talk to, we have, like a shared past. We know each other from a certain era of time, so it's easier to communicate. And if you talk to somebody that we don't. That you don't know at all, you know, it's. You don't have that, you. You can really capture the personal feeling that is in the book. Now because you're talking to a stranger.
[00:26:00] Speaker C: And also what you seem to forget, what is different than the American examples you just gave. We have language barriers. We. Dutch are pretty fluent in English, but you can hear that it's not our native tongue. But you know, as soon as you start to speak with Polish people or Croatian people or Italian or Spanish people, it's sometimes really hard to overcome the shades of gray in what you're trying to tell other people. So we were also limited by the people we know, we knew and know and the languages we speak. I mean, we're pretty good in German, we're pretty good in English. Our French is so. So. And then when you get to Norwegian and Italian, it's basically non existent. So there was also like a practical limitation.
[00:26:50] Speaker B: So I just want to like make a mention of something around kind of individual scenes and bands. And then I want to go some into more the focus on Straight Edge in Europe. Cause I find that to be like such a fascinating thing. But there's a book that I reference a lot. It was a photo book, I think it came out in the 90s called the unheard Music. And I forget the person whose photos it was. Chrissy.
[00:27:13] Speaker A: Chrissy Piper.
[00:27:15] Speaker B: Yeah, that's it. There was a forward by Aaron Cometbus in there that I always thought was so fascinating about. Like if you're around long enough, you've got a box of demos, local demos or bands that you just met on tour. And they're like bands that nobody's heard of but you and your friends. And you and your friends had these demos and you played them to death. But they aren't bands that are recognized on like a huge level. But you and your friends know that band was amazing and that band mattered to you. And are all these bands worthy of books? I mean, that's up to whoever wants to put the effort into it. That's for. For them to say. But I always think of this like one band that is local to Vancouver. Well, they were in Bellingham, Washington. It was this band called Jayhawker. It's like if I said to people like, oh, the Jayhawker demo is incredible, they would have no idea who it was. But this band was very significant to me.
[00:28:08] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:28:09] Speaker B: And that I. And that idea that like, does every single band matter? Well, kind of conceivably, like most bands, even if they've only just played a few shows, made an impact on someone. And in fact, if a band's had a demo or a 7 inch or an LP, even if it doesn't matter. It's somebody's favorite record, it's somebody's favorite band for whatever reason. A variety of reasons. So like, I just love the idea of like not getting like lost in the past. Like the past is everything but like putting effort into preserving some kind of like, true, or as best as we can, true recounting of the past or at least our perspective. Because I think it does, it does matter because it's, it's changed countless lives.
[00:28:50] Speaker C: I totally agree. And what boggles me the most is that, you know, I got into punk and hardcore around 80, 81 and now we're like in 2024.
How some bands that were like really known or known to a group of people or known to some people back then have, have been disappeared from like the common knowledge. And like, you know, big bands like Black Flag or, or for the Chromax, they have all survived.
But I have like thousands of records downstairs that maybe no one plays anymore. But whenever I play him, I get brought back to like 84 or 87 or 91. And I love it. And I will never part with those records because they are so significant. Significant to me way more than what I've collected so called collectible records nowadays.
[00:29:49] Speaker B: All right, let's talk about European Straight Edge. And please, like, you know, this is just my perspective, so please feel free to correct me.
So, you know, there was the big kind of first wave of Straight Edge. You've got your Minor Threat, your ssd, and then later on you've got like your youth of today's and all that. And then Straight Edge in North America kind of takes a backseat. It doesn't totally go away, but it kind of takes a backseat. And it also starts to morph to being like quite a bit more metal and going these directions again. I'll be real interested in this. My perspective is that Europeans have taken Straight Edge much more like, seriously, if I could say that. Like, and when I say serious, I don't mean it needs to be some. Like, this is the most important thing in the world. Because I don't think it is. I, for example, I think veganism is much more important than Straight Edge on kind of like a global level. But I think Straight Edge is very important personally. But I've always found that like Straight Edge bands in Europe and people who are Straight Edge in Europe seem to be take it quite seriously. And it usually is connected to like politics. It's usually connected to like some kind of animal rights. And it very often seems to be like much more woven into their lifestyle than most North Americans. Now there might be North Americans that listen to this and totally disagree, but I'll say as someone who's had quite a bit of interaction with European straight edge, and I've been a huge fan of European straight edge bands, it seems to be quite significant to the lives of people who are straight edge in Europe. And I'm just interested in your thoughts on that.
[00:31:24] Speaker A: Yeah, you are absolutely right on that. And like, for example, we don't have, like, we kind of make fun of Americans straight edge until 21.
And that's, I mean, that's probably related to college or whatever, but I mean that's, that's absolutely not the case for the majority of straight edge kids in Europe. It's more like a dedication and exactly like what you said, what you already said before, it's so connected to politics and veganism, which are also for me way more important than straight edge. Straight as, straight edge. It's just who I am and who shaped me. But I mean, veganism, you know, you can actually make a difference. You can make a change. For example, when I became straight edge, I was also heavy into politics.
And the fact that I wasn't drinking and smoking is because the government makes like the most tax money because of alcohol and drugs. So even there there was this link to politics.
[00:32:30] Speaker C: I think our starting point is different because especially when I grew up, like in the late 70s, early 80s, but still until today, it's sort of normal that you drink a lot when you become 18 plus or now 21 plus. And it has never been as strict as it is in the US or Canada with like drinking laws.
So basically the moral majority expects you to drink when you turn like 15, 16, and even now going up to like, you know, your early adulthood.
So if you are against the grain and you question everything, you also question what normal people do. And normal people drink and they smoke and they do drugs.
So I was punk rock. I didn't want to be normal. So it was also another way, besides being vegetarian and later on vegan, to revolt against the moral majority.
While in America it sometimes feels the opposite, like you're doing the good thing, not drinking. You're sort of confirming to what's normal if you don't drink.
So there was sort of a different starting point then, I think in the US for European straight edges. But also there was a lot from the start. There was a lot of. It was, it was combined with class struggle. You know, how can you fight class struggle if you're drunk, wasted, by drugs and you're laying on the floor of some dirty squat in between dog poop. How can you fight a proper class struggle and fight the system if you're intoxicated all the time? So being straight edge, being clear headed, had something to do with the political goals we were fighting for. So yes, we felt a little bit better than the drinking and drugs using so called warriors. And if you look back at it, it's also amazing how productive the early straight edgers were in the, in the punk rock scene. So it definitely had something to do with like changing the system, fighting for a more equal society, coming up for having compassion for those who are unheard in society.
So I think from the get go there was a link with the political aspect. And for me, for instance, if I look to the development, I think Laram was highly political. I think man listen, Banner was super political. And then for me Main Strike was sort of oh, they're just a straight edge band, but they're still very political. But compared to, you know, the bar that was set by the other bands, they were just a straight edge band. Which is totally not true.
But I think it just shows the difference where you come from.
[00:35:40] Speaker B: Yeah.
What are your thoughts on why? Because and kind of moving just outside of straight edge. I certainly don't want to diminish people's commitment to political action or being political in North America or anywhere else. But I will say it is noticeably different in Europe about how people's political actions, political thinking are, are very, very tied to punk and hardcore. But then also that they take that outside and are quite active politically. Kind of having being part of like multiple generations of punk and hardcore in North America, you know, like the ideas of politics, it goes up and down. So if we kind of think in the, in the 90s and into early 2000s, there's kind of like a political peak around like the ebullition scene. And then it took a. Maybe I'd say like kind of mid-90s. And then like when the 97 kind of youth crew thing came up, it, it went down. It didn't totally go away, but it took like a huge backseat. Whereas in North America it's. Or sorry in Europe it seemed like very prominent from generation to generation to generation that there's a lot of focus on politics about confronting fascism and all of these things. It's. I'm interested in your perspective of why that has been such, such a consistent backdrop in punk and hardcore in Europe.
[00:37:01] Speaker A: Hmm.
Pungent hardcore in general. It's quite difficult But I do know why it is important for me as a straight hatcher, for example.
I mean, basically it was a reaction to the destructive behavior of punk back in the days.
And like, like what Mark already said, those punks, they. They escaped into alcohol, drugs and sex, which is basically opium for the masses.
And straight ashes, they resist this.
So when vegetarianism or veganism was added to the four, to those principles, those straight ash principles, it resulted in a lot more vegans and vegetarians.
[00:37:49] Speaker C: I think part of the political, I wouldn't say backdrop, because it's always been on the floor foreground of European punk and hardcore.
It must have to do something with like, that were like all different countries. So you can, you can drive like an hour and a half from here and you're in Belgium and two hours and you, you'll be in Germany. And especially back in the 80s and 90s, there was so much, there were so much political differences between those countries. So you could cherry pick a little bit. Like in Sweden or Norway they had this and that, and in England they had that. So we want to have that too.
I think that the geographical part of it definitely comes to the foreground.
But also I think that punk rock in the early days sort of derives from avant garde art and avant garde politics. And they sort of met because those two came together in the squat scene. And I don't know exactly about this in North America, but I dare to say that 80 to 90% of our scene from the 80s and the 90s took place in squats. And there wouldn't be squads without politics concerning urban blights, urban decay, but also ground prices, real estate prices. So there was vacancy in our inner cities, but that was only up for grabs for the people who wanted to do something with it. So you get sort of a bias on the people that start squads not because the property is available, but also because they want to do something. And so I think that intertwinement with, you know, avant garde art from like the 60s and 70s that sort of emulsified into punk rock and also that squad scene. Because when I, when I became a punk rocker in 80, 81, I had like no idea that there were squat scenes and punk rock scenes, because they were one. For me later on I found out that there were differences, but you know, it was grassroots from, from day one and you had to fight for your own existence. And I know that there is a different story of subsidized youth centers that also helped a lot of kickstarting our scene.
But for me, the intertwinement with the squad scene, the political squad scene and the political ideas of the punk rock. Yeah, that sort of kick started the whole thing, I'd say. But it's a good question. I never gave it that much thought in comparison.
[00:40:49] Speaker A: Looking back now, in hindsight, I would also say the squad scene kind of disappeared in the mid-90s when the Yule crew scene became bigger. I mean, punk and hardcore was more intertwined in the late 80s and beginning of the 90s. And after that it also became more of a fashion lifestyle, I would almost say. But I mean, basically that was already introduced by YouTube today in 87 when they showed up with high tops and. But I think in Europe when the youth crew era blew up, they did not play squads anymore. There was, you know, it was like a different scene. It became like a, A scene within a scene.
[00:41:32] Speaker C: Well, the house you saw was a squad. Was it?
[00:41:35] Speaker A: Yeah, somehow, but you know, subsidized squad.
[00:41:40] Speaker B: I'll share with you what a. What a friend of mine said to me. We're in Poland. We were in Warsaw on tour and we're. We had a day off when we were walking around town and I had commented to my friend Patrick, shout out to Patrick, wonderful, wonderful friend of ours from Poland. I said like, man, it's so, it's so distinct here where I can see kind of like parts of Warsaw that are just like seeming to be like more historical versus parts that seem just to be these like big gray buildings. What's up with that? This is like my. I think it was my first time in Europe and for our first tour and I'd said it like more like just from a place of. Just a kid who grew up in Calgary, Alberta, Canada and like knew about history but didn't really understand history. And he was like, well, yeah, that's because like our city was destroyed by. In World War II. And I grew up in a time where all of this was, you know, like being rebuilt and reclaimed and you know, like I grew up even though he's issue around my age, he's like, I grew up in the background drop of still talking about and reeling and recovering from World War II. And I was just like, like my head was exploding. And I was like, oh my gosh, I, I sorry, I didn't mean to sound insensitive. He's like, no, no. That's why punk and hardcore is, is so political in Europe is because we've had great wars here. We've had, we've had huge, huge wars that we've been Recovering from and like kind of figuring out what happened and how it happened and how we never want it to happen again. And it's like that's why politics is such a huge part of what we do. And of course, like, you know, growing up in Calgary, Alberta, where I certainly had my struggles, but it was more about like getting beat up by jocks at like 7:11.
I was really like moved by what this guy said and I've never ever forgot it. It was like, wow, it's such a distinct difference. And I don't want to simplify it down to that, but that is a way it was described to me of why, of why politics has always been such a big part of punk and hardcore in Europe.
[00:43:49] Speaker A: Well, maybe, maybe. But I mean, I experienced exactly the same like what you just said. Rm because when we like every show that we played with Birds of a Feather that was out east or southeast was amazing. And you know why? Because kids appreciate bands taking their time to come over. But what we also had, and I never forget that we played a couple of shows in Croatia and Hungary and it was like traveling back in time for like 80 years even for us.
So very similar to how you experienced it. I mean bad roads, I mean, old houses, like gray buildings. It was like, whoa. It was like an eye opener as well.
[00:44:41] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, but I think you're right that sort of.
We are all sort of guilt ridden and that's only like one generation away from us. My dad is 85.
He was a toddler when there was World War II. But my grandparents, who I still vividly remember, lived through it. And my mom, who was born just before what we call the hunger winter of 19, 1944, she basically has a lot of illnesses right now because of that, that winter, which was, you know, in the midst of Second World War. So I think there's a lot of guilt ridden kind of motivation with people. Not even. I mean, you said simplify that. Maybe it's very good for someone from outside to simplify that for us. And that's why we have this difficult construct of the European communion, the European. That's why we have the European cooperation. That's why we still have countries with their own responsibilities. Yeah, I think there's a lot of truth in that, that it's still like an open wound. And especially the early punk rockers, they could really shock their parents by wearing swastikas, which was like, you know, nobody would wear a Swastika in the 50s or 60s. And then there were these punks that put on swastikas. And, you know, really shocked people by doing that.
So, yeah, I like your. I wouldn't call it. Simplify it. It's good that you put your finger on that.
[00:46:18] Speaker B: I'll give you another experience that I had. And then I want to switch over to European strategy specifically, and its massive impact. I want to talk a bit about its impact on me, but also just in general. So I was on my second tour of Europe, and a promoter in Germany named Michael Gray. Do you guys know Michael?
[00:46:36] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:46:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Shout out to Michael. We were playing a show, and it was probably. It was like one of the funniest experiences of my life. Now at this point, I toured. I'd been all over North America. I'd been to Europe one time, but we're. We're back. And he came up to me at the show and said two things right in a row. The first thing he said to me was like, hey, the show is sold out tonight. I was like, oh, that's fantastic. He's like, so what we're going to do is we're going to empty out the show afterwards, and then we're going to do another show. We're going to do the show again. And I was like, what? Why don't you just let everybody in? He's like, oh, it's going to be really crowded if we did that. And I was like, no, just let everyone in. It's fine. He's like, well, we can't sell more tickets. I was like, I don't care. Just, like, let them in. It's no big deal. He was like, okay, it's going to be crazy. I did not realize what I was asking. It was like. I mean, it was like, literally people around us, and it was both, like, one of the most amazing shows I've ever had a chance to play. But also, like, Michael was looking at me like, this is what you get, you idiot, for, like, not listening to me. But the second thing he said, yeah, you know, we've heard some rumors that the. The fascists are going to show up tonight. So, you know, when they show up, we'll fight them together. And he slaps me on the shoulder. And I was like, fascist.
I went back into the band room and I was like, guys, I just got told that fascists are going to show up to the show. We're supposed to fight them. And one of the local bands was like, well, yeah, of course that's what we're going to do. And I was like, oh, my God. And it was so like again, you know, like this is not going to happen in North America at all. Like, there's nobody who's going to be showing up at a show looking for trouble like that maybe in the 90s and certainly in the 80s, but like not in like the early 2000s. And it totally blew my mind. And it also blew my mind like thinking about it afterwards when we were, when we were on the road the next day. I was like, that's so sick. That he would say it to me like as if it was a foregone conclusion that of course we're going to like knuckle up to these dudes together because that's what you do. And it really, it was a good, it was just a good reminder of, of how, of how different experiences we are having and like kind of that idea that's like, yeah, you, you actually are, are living and fighting for a different thing. And that's actually important for me to take into consideration if I'm going to be touring here, like, I should, I need to like be plugged into that and respect that. But. Any thoughts on, on that story being there, done that?
[00:49:05] Speaker C: I, I was, I've been to shows in North America where I was way more scared than I was at any show in Europe because we live in a sort of a gun free part of the world. So I remember going to an Excel show and there were people shooting guns.
I was like, what the. Oh yeah. And, and I was going to this Youth Today show in Fenders where there were like gangs fighting each other.
I thought that was way more scarier than what we experienced.
[00:49:36] Speaker B: That was also the 80s though, right?
[00:49:39] Speaker C: But yeah, we used to have shows especially in the 80s and 90s where we end up with having fights with the Nazis or the right wing extremists or the fascists.
So yeah, it comes, comes along with the territory. You know, I have scars on my knuckles from, from fights that I, that I had at shows because I'm not, I'm not. I'm a big guy, but not a strong guy. I don't, I'm not very muscular. I'm not a good fighter. But you know, you have to join in when, when the party gets started. Yeah.
[00:50:13] Speaker A: In our part of the world, it was especially in the late 80s and early 90s, especially local shows, Nazis kept showing up. Like we also knew who the Nazis were. And like when they got beaten up on Friday, they showed up again on Saturday, so they got their ass kicked again. But like, but on these days, especially in the eastern part of Europe, it's still actual, you know, I mean, it doesn't really happen that much anymore in our part of Europe. But if you go to East Germany, I mean, I have friends who are security at like big clubs and they almost know by head who the Nazis are. You know, like this guy has like a swastika tattooed under his.
Under his beard. And you know, like they kind of. They almost know who is who. And I mean, that's a far. That's absolutely not anymore in our part of Europe.
[00:51:11] Speaker C: No, but I remember the times that when I would go into a venue that I didn't know that well, I would look around like, who is there? Who do I know? What are the exits?
So that I would be prepared if shit would go down.
[00:51:26] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
[00:51:29] Speaker C: But it's great that you paid your dues in fighting the Nazis, although they didn't show up, apparently.
[00:51:34] Speaker B: They didn't show up, man.
[00:51:38] Speaker C: We thank you for your service.
[00:51:40] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you. It was. It's such a. I. I feel so fortunate that I was able to. To. To tour so much of the world at a relatively young age because it really. It really opened my mind. It really, really opened my mind a lot to.
To history and how history is still alive today and why, like how sheltered of an existence I had growing up. And it's. It's really been an important. Such an important thing. One step.
[00:52:12] Speaker C: One step.
[00:52:18] Speaker B: One step beyond.
