Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: So let's talk about European strategy. And something that I find so fascinating is how incredible the bands, the legacy, the venues, like all of these things are. But again, if you were outside of Europe, who would really know about it? So as an example, you've got all these US bands that are sick, like totally amazing. Like you today is like, I mean, easily like one of my favorite bands of all time, hugely influential. So you can go anywhere in the world, most places in the world, you'll find someone who knows about you today. But not the same for a band like Sportswear or Man Lifting Banner or Main Strike or laram. So why do you think North American bands have had such kind of like a global impact where European bands, which are arguably just as good and in many cases quite a bit better, why they have only had more of kind of like a regional impact.
[00:00:52] Speaker B: I think we have to blame Julo Fidel and Gorilla Biscuits for that. Because when they came over to Europe in the late 80s, everything changed.
And I think in a way people in Europe are way more open minded to any kind of music.
And I'm saying this because I also lived in your part of the world for a little bit and I knew everything about straight engine hardcore bands in the us but the other way around it was maybe one band or so, you know, and that was about it.
But I think, I really think when those two bands toured Europe for the first time, things changed for us as well.
[00:01:44] Speaker C: A lot of American bands are better in performing in general instead of, you know, a lot of European bands get on stage and play their songs. This is not the case with the bands you just mentioned or with Larm, Main Strike, manliffing Banner. They really knew what they were doing. But a lot of European bands are not out there to perform, so. So there's a big difference, I think in mindset or approach with a lot of North American bands that are more likely to perform and put on a show. And don't get me wrong, I really like that. You know, I heard if it's true, I don't know, but I heard that when Gorilla Biscuits was coming over to Europe for the first time, they had played their set for like a month and a half, two times a day, which is unheard of of European bands.
They might have played their step like once a month and then probably it was on stage and then, you know, so there's a. There's a very different approach in how to perform. That's the first thing. The second thing is I think America is such a Big country, that Europe is far away. And for most Europeans it doesn't really matter if a band comes from Italy. If you're in the Netherlands or a band comes from the us it's both away. It's not a local band. So you're more open to bands from abroad or from another country because they're easily coming from another country.
So that helps. And I think the political mindset of some European bands sort of scares off the general US public, especially Laram and Melissa McBenor who are both outspoken communists.
Well, I think that's just a step too far for most Americans to accept.
So yeah, that's why I'd say. And I feel sorry for all those North Americans missing out on those great bands. They have a chance to redeem themselves.
[00:03:56] Speaker B: I mean, we see the US as like one big country with different states. And when you live in Europe, like a band from Italy or band from the US is a band from different countries. So you're going to support them, you're going to check them out and, and, and of course it also comes with US bands. It comes with a lot of more professionalism, of course. Yeah, that's basically it, I believe.
[00:04:19] Speaker A: Well, I think like you can also go outside of just punk and hardcore and, and just be like. It seems like North American bands and us very specifically tend to have a little bit of a leg up in terms of like recognition or having a platform or being noticed where even like let's say like a band like the Scorpions from Europe, like, you know, they're like one of the few like really big European bands that made an impact this way. Where US bands seem to be able to have an impact like all over the world, very few bands from outside of the US seem to have a big impact. So if we think of European bands, of course, like you know, Refuse, Refuse was a huge one. But then, you know, I also think of like justice did quite well over here, but I can't think of like a ton. And of course, and for anyone listening, forgive me, I'm not up on like modern European bands so I don't want to leave anyone out. And no one's being left out in a mean way. I just might not know not know about the band but in my time where I was very active in punk and hardcore, there were just like a handful of European bands that made a big impact but were like unbelievable bands. And I think of like a band like Mainstreke who came over, who, you know, like nobody really cared when they came over, but Main Strike for me is like one of the most important bands if like of my life.
[00:05:31] Speaker B: Don't you think it has to do with the fact that people in Europe bother about US bands and invest time and money in them getting over and it's not the other way around?
[00:05:43] Speaker A: Totally, man. I'm interested in your perspective of why that is.
[00:05:47] Speaker B: I think that's maybe one reason.
[00:05:50] Speaker C: I think there's sort of a cultural liking of everything that comes from America. You know, no matter if it's basketball or fashion, people tend to like it because it's coming from the US or I will include Canada for that same matter.
And also I think just in. Especially in the record days, if you were from an American label that sold like easily 800 records in the US and there were like 200 distributed to Europe, it would have been a big band from the US that you get your hands on the. On the record. You were like, wow, this is a great big band from America. Well, they weren't even big at all. I remember there was this band that you loved, J.P. from Toledo, Ohio, which was there majority of which which I think was seen as a huge band here in Europe while in America they were like, you know, a so. So band in terms of appreciation.
So there is this focus on everything that comes from America is good. What surprised me the most is that there were more. There was like way more TV coverage for your for the national election of Trump versus Biden than for instance in the Netherlands for the elections of the new government in Germany. And those are our neighbors. They don't get any TV attention. And then Trump versus Biden gets like hundreds of hours of tv. So there is sort of a. Well sort of predestined that we like America. And I don't know why it's the other way around that you Americans don't like European bands. Because I know that a band like BGK toured the US in like 83, 84 and they left a huge impact. But it. It took years and years for another Dutch band to tour.
I only know a handful of Dutch bands that toured the Seeing Redwind a couple of times. Main Strike did a horrible tour with basically was the end of the band that they went to to the U.S.
yeah, it's very strange.
[00:08:12] Speaker B: No, I think it has. I think it has to do with the girls Ra thing. It's not just hardcore music. It's everything. Like even if you read the newspapers like we or in Europe when you read a big of a newspaper or read like a news website, they call for world news, when I used to live in Chicago, it was only news from that area era. Unless there was like an atomic bomb exploded somewhere. And you know, then it was covered on TV as well. I think it's more like we like to, I mean, and I don't mean this negative, but we read more about what is going on in the world and we also are more interested in what's going on in the world.
I mean I had people in the US ask me and this was in the mid-90s. If in Europe, if we have highways in Europe, just like in the us it was like a dead serious question, you know, like things like that.
So I think it's not just music, but I think it's with everything. It's maybe just like, I don't know, it's more open minded. The right word. I don't know, it's maybe, I don't know.
[00:09:27] Speaker C: And just to make that clear. Jp, do we have highways in Europe.
[00:09:31] Speaker B: Since the walls came down? Yes.
No, no, Just kidding. But I think it goes deeper than music. I think it's with everything that maybe we are more, or we like to explore, are just interested in what's going on or we just want to know what is going on and we just do not limit ourselves to where we are located.
[00:09:53] Speaker C: But you know, but for instance, take that Main Strike tour that completely fell through. Main Strike was at the height of their popularity in Europe. At that time they were playing like two to three to four shows each weekend for like thousands of people. And then they went to America, they had like six, 50 shows for like a handful of people. Which sort of illustrates the fact that there's not a lot of open mindedness to what goes on in the rest of the world.
[00:10:30] Speaker A: Totally. And let's drop a few more bands in here because I'll be remiss if I don't. So you know, of course refused Dead Stop, which I mean is like, I mean iconic beyond belief.
Justice, True Colors. Gosh, there's so many more that I know we could mention here that really made an impact. But this is why I'm so excited about your book. And again, why I want to have you on here is European hardcore has had a huge impact on me. I was very, very lucky when I was young that I had a pen pal in Europe who was into punk and hardcore.
He was into what he himself referred to as no Effects Core.
And so he would send me like stuff like Satanic Surfers and Melancholy and we would argue through letters because we were writing letters at this point, I met this person through maximum rock and roll and he like, begrudgingly would send me European hardcore, which is how I found out about Refused. He sent me like an early Refuse cd and I didn't even own a CD player at the time because it was like I was Quite young and CDs were relatively ish, ish new. And I had to go over to my friend, my rich friend's parents house to listen to the cd.
But I remember listening to Refuse and just like, my mind was totally blown. Like, could not believe how, like, this was coming from Europe. Not only come from Europe, it's coming from Sweden. Like, not only coming from Sweden was like coming like from far up in Sweden. My mind was absolutely blown. And I got into that and then started getting into like getting my hands on anything I could from Europe, which of course then. Man Lifting Banner Man Lifting Banner being for me one of the hands down, most like, brilliant lyrics, incredible performances, good recordings, unified, interesting artwork. Like a real stance on something that was like super clear. Everything was articulated well in my mind. They were like a huge band, like a massive band in my brain. Because how could something not be when it was that good? And then of course I'd say that as I met other kids in punk and hardcore and I started traveling in North America, people are like, I have no idea who this band is.
And that led me to Main Strike. And I'd say, like, Main Strike, for me, Main Strike Strike in sportswear. A, because they kind of represent a sound that I. That I'm very partial to, which is Cornmore, that youth crew thing. But B, because as, as you know, Mark, I believe you're saying is like, you know, they. They weren't known as like a political band, but they actually were quite political. Like, I considered these bands to have this kind of perfect combination of. Of just being so awesome at that sound, but also kind of being about something. And in that time, that sound wasn't as popular in North America and those ideas weren't as popular in North America. They totally like, really, really made a difference to me. And very specifically, if I heard no Passing Phase, like, if someone put on that song, I could be doing anything. Like, I tell you, I could be doing like the crappiest thing ever. And suddenly that thing, I'd be like, doing it with gusto and be into it. Because that song, but specifically that LP are just like. I'd put that up there as being like one of the greatest hardcore LPs, like, of that genre of all time. But yet so few people know about it. And it's just like, that's why your book is so important. Because I think it's capturing something that is so vital and so important to so many people. But as time moves on, there's more history, there's more bands, less people know about it.
[00:13:57] Speaker C: Well, let's start with managing Banner here. Because when Michiel and Bart started Profound, they basically started it after Michiel went to the USA and toured a little bit with Youth Today. So he was going like, okay, I want to have, you know, I want to bring this clean message, but it has to be combined with politics. So when they started that band, it was not like my bands, like, oh, let's go start a band. Which I always did. But he was like, okay, I'm gonna start a band and it's gonna be this band. So he started it off with Bart, who was very much an artist in like more like the designer kind of artist and becoming that. And they needed other people for that band. And so they, they sort of bribed Paul and Olaf from Laram into Profound.
And then when they had done Profound for a year, they thought it was too positive, it was too much geared to just straight edge and they needed to up it in politics. So they secretly started cold turkey by adding bma, the later singer of Main Strike to it and surprised all of us with, with the col 7 inch. And then they started managing Banner, which was at that time they were straight edged and they were communists at the time that the wall fell. It was the year that the Wall fell in 89 in Berlin. And they came out like, you know, with all these communists ideas how to make it a better world. It's not the end of history, it's the start of history. We have to do it better now.
Unfortunately, quite the opposite happened.
But they were, as a band, they were so contrived in a positive way that they made their shows, their artwork, their message, their songs, all in that format of a political straight edge band, or maybe I should say a political bank that was also straight edge.
And, and that really hit something with all like the left wing people in Europe that felt a little bit lost after the wall came down. And what's going to happen now and are we going to be submitted to unbridled capitalism?
So they, they made sort of a foundation for all of this in how good you could be as a band, you know, in, in your message, but also in your artwork. I think we paid a lot of attention to Bart's artwork in Our book because of the fact we think that, that what he accomplished in style in, in combining the message with the aesthetics was really groundbreaking.
And they were a hugely controversial band. I mean they were, they were banned at shows. There were people talking about Hare Krishna influences.
I think some of their boxes with records were sent back from the US to Europe as being communist propaganda. So all the control trophy controversy you could have with a punk rock band, they had that again, you know, 12, 13, 14 years after punk rock started.
So yeah, coming back to your question, how come that nobody in the US or North America knew about the band? For me, that's sort of unbelievable because everyone in Europe knew that band either because you like them or because you hated them. You would have come to see that band because you had to see and listen to that band. And I think at that time, because of them, the whole stall thing happened at shows that people would have, would put up stalls in, in the venue and get all these political books, pamphlets, leaflets there and, and that sort of grew further into the 90s. It's something that I really always liked about our scene. But unfortunately we could, we couldn't find a lot of pictures of like the after show stalls and booths that were at the shows. We put quite some that we found in, in our book.
And I think that Main Strike, because Bichma used to be the guitar player of Man Lifting Banner, had a great example in Man Lifting Banner how to do things correctly. So he had like a sort of a starting point or as we would say, spin plank where you jump the high board, you jump off in the pool to put, to put together the band with the right amount of energy, the right amount of message, the right amount of so called artistry to take it to the next level. And the good thing about Bichma was that he said like, I want to take a step back in music. I don't want to progress into the metallic side of hardcore which everyone is doing. I'm going to do a step back and take that 88, 89 approach of old school hardcore and put that in Main Strike. And I think that was also something we were longing for in Europe. You know, get away from the metal and go back to straightforward, clean hardcore.
[00:19:51] Speaker B: That's what Bigma always wanted to do. I mean, when man. Going back to your question, Aram, when, you know, I was heavily into bands like Yule Today and Guerrilla Biscuits just like everybody else. But when mainstream, when Man Lifting Banner started playing, I was like, yes, this is the European answer to these bands where this Band captures it all. You know, they're straight edge, they look like straight edge kids. They cover politic, political issues.
And all of the shows, like in my memories, all of the shows were amazing. And being the last show they ever played in Germany in Salzgitt, I was. It was the best show, their best show. But I mean, they headlined the show over a US band. I don't even remember which band it was. But man, that show, it was insane. And so I saw a lot of other shows for Man Lifting Banner in belgium in the fourth and fifth, for example, which basically was like the European CBGB's crazy crazy. And Big Ma, you know, Big Ma never was intuitive. All the political message was not into the political side of Man Lifting Banner. And he always wanted to play in a youth group band, always from the start, from the get go. And that was his only thing.
[00:21:18] Speaker C: And it's also good to stress that although Manlifting Banner was a political band, there was a lot of debate within the band if they were like Leninists or Trotskists or Marxists. And I guess they had all these fights in the van on. On which dialect of communism they were speaking. And I remember BECMA was just going like, what the hell?
[00:21:44] Speaker B: Or how can you be it? How can you, how can you. How can you be into Trotsky and eat meat or hunt?
[00:21:51] Speaker A: You know, dude, it's just the whole thing is so.
It's very meaningful for me that you guys have done this great book. And I, I know it's so. It might be weird that like, me living in Canada, like, it matters so much to me. I just, I've been so, so appreciative of being able to tour Europe. The amount of times I've had and playing with these bands and getting to know all these people and these venues that are there, that they're gone and nobody knows about them. There's just something about the impermanence of it and just having an opportunity to like really interact with it and then also having my life changed so much by it that, you know, when I found out about the book and what you. You did, I knew I had to talk to you both about it. And there's so much more we could talk about here because I just think it's such a fascinating topic of the impermanence of things and the importance of documenting it, but also like not getting too stuck in the past because there's this modern scene going on. There's a lot more we could talk about. But I do, I do want to Move us towards the end of the interview. And I want to hit on a couple things here.
So, jp, I know you have a history in zines and all of this, but Mark, you'd never previously done any kind of like, publications before, right?
[00:23:06] Speaker C: Well, for my work, I have to write a lot, so I'm very used to writing.
And so the first version of this book was my real first book as well. I wrote a book in between about I had critical illness. I was in the ICU for quite a while. So. So I wrote a book on that which was also, by the way, designed by jp. So thank you for that, jp.
And I think of myself of being a pretty good writer, but in this book I was sort of.
I was sort of limited in like, two ways. First of all, I really wanted to pay tribute to the people that we spoke to.
But also I want to have to have it accessible for people that are all over Europe and maybe not as fluent as in English as. As we are. So I had to limit myself in how to write it down. And also what I. What I found really important was I wanted to have a story that went from A to Z. And I didn't want to have a book with just quotes. I wanted to have a story and I wanted to have the reader be the judge of what happened because there are some controversial parts in the book and I'm not a journalist and I'm not a scientist, so I will never know if it would be A or B or C in the controversy.
So hopefully I wrote it that way that, that the reader will. Will make their own judgment. And thirdly, I really appreciate you in having the time to read our book and, and give, give me back those compliments on that time, because that's basically all that matters to me is that people that read it will get like a little glimpse of warmth in their heart, like, oh, yeah, this is how it was and it will never be that again. But I was there and I experienced it and I recognize it.
But coming back to your question, this is my first real 500 plus pages book that I published.
[00:25:30] Speaker A: All right, so my question for both of you and jp, I'd also love to hear your thoughts from design and all that kind of stuff for someone who's listening to this and is like, oh, you know what I've got? I've got a story that I think needs to be told, or there's this thing that needs to be documented. Not everybody has a platform that discord has created for itself. It's not like they're giving it. And that's why I think one of those amazing punk and hardcore stories where it's just like a bunch of people who are like, no, this needs to exist. We're going to make it exist. And of course they've been able to kind of grow with that over time. But not everyone has that platform. And a lot of people are like, I think this story matters and I want to make it happen. So any advice that either one of you could give anyone listening to this who would be interested in taking on a project that might have some kind of similar scale here.
[00:26:21] Speaker C: Don'T do it alone. It was so worthwhile that we did this with the two of us. I think a threesome would have been too much, but with the two of us, we really had arguments on what to do and how to do it.
And of course we had similar, but a similar background, but very different capabilities. I could. I'm more of a writer. NJP is of course a designer. So we were complementary on each other in that respect.
So the first advice, don't do it alone. And the second advice is just do it. You know, go ahead, do it. If you think it's important, go do it. In our case, it's been a long road. We've been busy with this for 19 years.
First, the first two years in 2005, 2006, then we just debated back and forth to 2019, and then we put the turbo on it for the last four years and it took over our lives. I mean, I gotta be honest with that. I mean, the last couple of years were just like every spare minute I had we spent on the book. And the same with JP and especially getting the story right. I think we. We rewrote it like three or four times because someone said, like, oh, you have to turn it around. And then I turn it around. Then I was like, no. Then I had to turn it back. And of course I didn't save the first id, so I had to like. It was just horrible. It was just horrible. But yeah, just do it. It's so rewarding. I mean, it was so good going to the printer and getting the first preprint. I remember JP and I were just flipping over the loose pages and like, what? This is going to be amazing. And then there were like a thousand copies of this huge book. Oh, yeah. And please remember, if you make a thousand LPs, that's in real estate, that's doable. But if you make a thousand of these books in real estate, it's horrible. It takes up your corridor, it takes up your living room, it takes up your. It's this. It's insane how much square footage that is.
[00:28:36] Speaker A: Jp, what are your thoughts?
[00:28:38] Speaker B: I don't even know where to start.
No, but it's basically like with everything that. I mean, we are.
We come out of a scene where we do it all ourselves. So if you have an idea or if you want to do something, just start it and don't tell anyone. But as soon as you start evolving or get into the project or things start shaping up, spread the word and go for it. That would basically be it. That's how I do everything, actually. I mean, have an idea, work it out, sketch it out, and start working on it.
[00:29:20] Speaker A: All right, are you two ready for the Crucial Three?
[00:29:23] Speaker C: Well, what I want to say is. No, we're not ready.
[00:29:27] Speaker B: You keep your mouth shut now.
[00:29:31] Speaker C: I mean, I want to stress that. I really appreciate that it struck a chord with you. I mean, you toured the world. You went to our Nicoto woods, and the book struck a chord with you. I really, you know, I love that. Thank you so much. And the other thing is, if you want to do something outrageous like we did, and you. I mean, and you know that it's not going to destroy your personal funding, because this was the most expensive thing I've ever done besides buying a house, you know, just do it, Go for it. I mean, the reward is. It's amazing. Just.
[00:30:11] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, if you do. So, if you start working on a project like this, you also start to believe in it. And of course, it comes with some risks, but once you get more and more into the project and you see, like, the first mock ups and the results from the printer, you're like, all right, this is going to be good. And.
Yeah.
[00:30:33] Speaker C: So remember, kids, just do it. So hit us with the Crucial three. Hit us with the crucial three.
[00:30:38] Speaker A: All right, here we go. So I'm going to ask it, but I'm going to ask that each one of you answer, so whoever wants to go first. All right, so let's start with an easy one.
We talked earlier about the unheard music and that box of demos that most punks have somewhere of these unheard bands that only very few people know about. So for each one of you, what's a band that you have in your heart that you're like, this band was unreal, but nobody knows about them.
[00:31:13] Speaker B: Ultimate Sabotage is my pick. And that's.
It's an. It's a band, an old punk band from an old friend, like an old friend of mine, his sister sung in his band, and I was staying at his house, and his parents were gone and they threw a party, and that band was playing, and I was like, maybe like 12 or 13 years old. And that was my introduction to. To punk. And, like, all these punks from the big city came to the countryside, and it was at a farm. It was mind blowing. But that's. That's. Yeah, that's the first band that comes up in my mind.
[00:31:52] Speaker A: Ultimate Sabotage. Where were they from?
[00:31:54] Speaker B: They are from a place called Naime, which is close to Arnhem, where the Godfish hall was. Maybe you played the Godfishall with one of the bands, I believe. A champion, right?
[00:32:05] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:32:06] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And that city is 50 minutes away. It's like a student city. And like, all, like, at that time, like, those kids were a lot older than me, so I was. It was like, for me, it was all kids playing punk music. And what is this? You know, it was like my first proper introduction to punks and squats and. Yeah, and with a female singer. Ultimate Sabotage. And later I found out they played with bands like Dine Catione and, like, big bands. Like big punk bands that came over and toured Europe.
[00:32:41] Speaker A: Heck, yeah. All right, Mark.
[00:32:44] Speaker C: I have two.
One of them is Kickers, which is a Dutch band who released the demo before they released their album. And they're a little bit known because of their album, but their demo is so much better than the album. It's just insane. The lyrics are funny, they're political.
The music is good.
I think they took, like, five years doing the demo, and then they did a great demo, and then they did the album in, like, a couple of months. And it was just horrible songwriting. So I think the. The Kicker Spiel demo is. Is amazing. And then there was this band called Oygasm, which was a partial punk band and a partial skinhead band. There were two punks with mohawks and two skinheads in the band. And they came from a hick town in. In the Netherlands called Nunspate, which is like a teeny, tiny little nothing.
And since I was from a little scene at that time, and we were always, like, debating, are we more skinhead or are we more punk? And we never were able to choose. And then we just thought it was amazing to have a band that had two skinheads and two punks in one band. And they were even called Oygism. What a freaking cool name.
[00:34:01] Speaker A: Perfect answer, guys. For me, it would be a band from Edmonton, Alberta, which is the town that SNFU came from, it was just north of Calgary called Blindside. And they were the first Straight Edge band I ever saw. It was in the 90s, I think. I saw them in 93. And I loved Straight Edge bands before that, but it was first one I actually ever saw. We played with them in Calgary, my first punk band, and they blew me away. Their singer was this big, tall skinhead named Anton. He's wearing Doc Martens and a flight jacket when they. When they played and had an X on his hand. And my mind, I believe, three demos. And I have two of them, the second and the third. And are they. Are they great demos? I mean, in the landscape of punk and hardcore? Probably not. But do they make a humongous impact on me as a kid? Absolutely. And I still listen to them. I still think about them. Like, so much of. Of my story is, like, tied up with being, like, totally blown away by this. By this band. And, you know, like, it's just so funny. It's so funny how these guys that. It's like, it's just some punk band that they were probably in when they're young for me is like, whoa, Blindside. It was a big deal. All right, let's go to question number two.
Let's think about your careers. Now that do it yourself part of punk and hardcore, which I know is so important to both of you, what's the biggest impact it's had on your career?
[00:35:27] Speaker B: It became my career. I mean, I'm. I'm still doing it. Still doing it, doing it myself, just like you. I have my own business. I'm running my own business.
So, yeah, I mean, it shaped me. And, And. And I also noticed when I was still working for huge international, like, international agencies and smaller agencies, where you are only limited to walk a certain path that you want to do everything. And that's something that I took from. From. Yeah, basically from the punk and hardcore scene. You know, that you just do everything yourself to create something. And. And that's also. That's exactly the reason why I also stopped working for advertising agencies. Agencies because I want to do it all myself.
So, yeah, it's really simple, but that's it. Basically.
[00:36:19] Speaker C: Yeah, my career is built on do it yourself.
Although I've been a civil servant for most of my professional career, and I'm now in a position that it's too hard for me to do everything myself. I still see that if you question everything and the answer is you're not agreeing on what you're seeing, you have to Change yourself. And I'm now in a position to put other people onto the path of change.
So yeah, that's basically what I do every day.
And it definitely got me to where I am right now.
Also, I have my hands tattooed, which are usually are told that this is a job stopper, but you know, I'm the director of a big city in the Netherlands. As long as you stick to your own values and who you are, tattooed hands are not a job stopper. Well, in most cases.
And yeah, the whole DIY approach got me to where I am today. And I'm living with that every day. And I'm questioning myself for that every day as well. You know, why aren't I am doing it myself? You know, I have to put that question in front of myself every day because society demands something better than it is today. It needs something better than it is today. And I'm trying to contribute to that.
[00:37:56] Speaker A: Yeah. All right, final question for both of you and it's a tougher one. So your book has a lot to do with legacy. And not, not directly, but like that idea of legacy. And it's like a communal legacy, a community legacy. It's something that people, even without knowing it came together to create over years and years and years and decades in time and from the individual to the band, to the cities, to the countries legacy. And it's, it really makes me think a lot about what we want our legacy to be. So this doesn't have to be punk or hardcore related at all. But if you were to say it's wherever you want to go with it. But for each of you, what would you like your legacy to be? So when you kind of hang up your boots and you're. You go on to whatever's next, after, afterwards, after, after we live, what do you want your legacy to be?
Oh man, I told you it was hard.
[00:39:00] Speaker C: We have to book. Of course we have the book. So that's a brick sized legacy.
But I mean for me in generically speaking, it has to be my children. You know, I hope they, I mean my children grew up with touring bands coming over to stay with veganism as being normal.
So I hope they, they take on a little bit of what they learned about, about punk rock, about society from their punk rock dad. And my two children, they're 26 and 22 now. They're both like totally not into punk rock.
But I, I know I was, I was with my daughter, with my oldest one, I was visiting a klezmer, a concert of a klasmere Band, you know, klezmer in the Jewish music and they were playing like really poorly and my daughter was like 12 at the time and she was sitting next to me and said, dad, your punk rock isn't that bad.
So I thought there was a little bit of a recognition there. So yeah, the, the, the more common answer would be like, I hope I, I put a positive influence into my children and that they take that further into society and hopefully we contribute a little bit to a better society. If I, if I look at veganism today, you know, when we turned vegan in late 80s, early 90s, I could have never thought that veganism would be such a big thing nowadays. So hopefully we, you know, we turned a couple of switches into something more sustainable.
[00:40:54] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm going to. This is absolutely not hardcore related but for me it's also like I hope my morals and values they. That my kids and my family, you know, learn from it and yeah, take something from it. If it's either from veganism or from just, you know, doing things yourself or, you know, just getting things done by, by and do things you love, you know, that's, that's the most important thing. And don't. And you know, just be positive to everything and everybody in your surroundings, you know, that's basically it.
[00:41:31] Speaker A: Heck yeah. Awesome, man. Great answers. All right, guys, we made it through. Anything that you want to shout out, anything you want to mention, anything you want to ask me as we're closing off?
[00:41:41] Speaker B: No, I want to thank you. RM because I mean it's not very often that people from the other side of the pond show so much interest in European hardcore.
And that's really cool also to get not the recognition but you know, like that you, you appreciate it and, and I think it, I mean that's basically, you know, what, what you do this for and I really. Yeah, I really like that.
[00:42:14] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Maybe taking it a little bit further. What did you like the best about her? Book.
[00:42:24] Speaker A: It. When you're over like when you're over here, you don't get the backstory, man. So like I give you example, like Laram, like there's this local dude in Vancouver is the first guy that I even had heard about laram from ever and he's kind of like, you know, like a guy that is like, he's the kind of guy that would know about like first wave Japanese hardcore. He'd be know about first wave European straight edge. Like just a guy who was like a real record collector and really entrenched and stuff like that. And he was like, oh, you like this band? You like man lifting banner? Well, you got to check out this band. And there wasn't like, a way of getting that history before. And, you know, when that.
That book. What was the Straight Edge book that Rev put out?
[00:43:07] Speaker C: Gosh, all ages.
[00:43:09] Speaker A: Yeah, all ages. When that came out, it was like, finally someone's written a book about it. And, you know, whether you think that's a good book or a bad book, it was an important book because it kind of started that focus. So what I liked was just being able to get, like, real deal history on stuff that there's no way of knowing about unless you were there. And that, to me, was, like, real interesting because they could do, like, more of a connect the dots than, you know, before. It was just kind of like, get a story from someone here. Get a story from someone there. And then I also, like. I know, I know I've talked quite a bit about Main Strike in the podcast here, but it's like mainstreke, like, really, like, legit mattered to me. Like, no, if you look at promises kept and you look at.
You look at no passing phase, it's like, that's intentional. You know, it's like to me, it's like a. Like an homage to them. And the whole idea of that, like a band is so important that nobody, like, so few people know about outside of Europe. I just appreciated so deeply that you guys are giving a voice to a history that really, it's kind of like this. This unknown history, even now in Europe, as time has passed on. So that's really what stood out to me about it. And, you know, like, deep gratitude for me for a. Putting out the book. I think it's so cool for all of your. All the things that both of you have done over the years and for being on the podcast, I've had so much fun with both of you.
[00:44:25] Speaker C: Thank you so much. Yeah.
[00:44:26] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:44:28] Speaker A: Heck, yeah. All right, everybody. You know, make sure you check out the book and check out Birds of a Feather, which is a very, very, very cool band. And also, like, check out all the bands that we talked about today, because not only are they cool bands, but they've really made a difference and still make a difference today. With that, we're out. See you next time. One step beyond One step.
[00:44:50] Speaker B: One step, One step beyond.
