Josh Grabelle, Trustkill Records (Part 1)

[00:00:00] Speaker A: You know, I think all of us have had the experience where someone has impacted our life for the better or added something to our life, and then you never meet them. You know, you don't expect to meet the author of a book that you like or, you know, the director of a film or the writer of a film or a TV show that you're into. And including stuff with music, you don't expect to like, let alone meet someone who's in a band or the person who runs the record label. But then there's this thing that I've been very lucky to be a part of, which is punkah hardcore, where not only do people create these things that impact your life and make you think and kind of show you what's possible, but they very often get to meet them as well. And today's guest is someone who really, from when I was quite young, even though we're the same age, was doing stuff where I was always taking notice of it and was also someone that was a trailblazer and trying different things and pushing different things. Things. So someone that I have a lot of interest in speaking to and a lot of respect for their story, for what they've done and what they're continuing to do. So before we get to it, please subscribe to the podcast. I would really appreciate it. My name is Aram Arslanian, and this is one step beyond Josh. Welcome to the show. [00:01:29] Speaker B: Hey, man, thanks for having me psyched. [00:01:32] Speaker A: Yeah, it's been a long time coming and one failed attempt, so I really appreciate it. [00:01:36] Speaker B: Yeah, no worries. [00:01:38] Speaker A: All right, so for the uninitiated, for those who don't know, who are you and what do you do? [00:01:45] Speaker B: My name is Josh grabell. I run Trustscale Records. Started it in 1994, which is crazy to say. Started when I was in college, put out a bunch of records. Shit started popping off in, like, the late 90s. I hired my first people to, like, help me out, like in the early to mid 2000s, just some friends. Signed a distribution deal with Stoney and then moved over to Universal in, like, the late 2000s. And then everything collapsed in 2010, lost control of the label. I started Bullet Tooth Records in 2010, doing more of the same, similar kind of bands. And then in 2022, I got the rights to Trust Kill back. The whole catalog, everything. And. And I've been moving forward and making happen with Trust Kill ever since. [00:02:55] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, man. Okay, let's get into it. So I know there's a lot to cover there. So without going into like too much depth. Can you just give us the like, start of the label up until when it became like a real deal business? [00:03:10] Speaker B: So I'm from New Jersey, grew up on the Shore. I went to my first hardcore show when I was 12. I saw the band Underdog. And from that moment on, like, I, I had heard a couple hardcore records. My older sister got me, Bad Brains, Eye Against Eye and a couple other records. But when I finally like saw a hardcore show and was there and like witnessed the energy and just the chaos, I just loved it. And I couldn't get enough. And I just went to every show I possibly could from there on. And then I went to college after high school in Syracuse, right around the time that Earth Crisis put out their first 7 inch all out war. And things were really popping up there too. So I was kind of like straddling two different scenes. I was like this New Jersey hardcore kid. But now I'm in Syracuse and things are going crazy. And I was driving at that point. I would drive anywhere within 10 to 15 hours to see an Earth Crisis gig. Didn't matter where they were playing. We would just, me and my friends would just hop in the car and drive to South Carolina. Wherever it was, it didn't matter. Chicago. And really early on at Syracuse, I met Joel Jordan, who was my age and from South Jersey. And we were in the same dorm room, the same dorm building at Syracuse when we were freshmen. I met him like my first week. He was my age, he was 18 years old. And him and his twin brother Jason Jordan were running Watermark Records at the time. And I'd only had a couple records out, but, you know, they were putting out some really cool stuff, like Flagman, Conviction, Lincoln, some really cool stuff. And I remember just being like, you know, kind of like you said, like it was weird. Like these guys were my age, but they were doing, they were running a record label. Like, I just thought it was the coolest thing. And then it was Jason Jordan, who was living in Philadelphia at the time. He had this idea to do a cover, like a tribute record to the Embrace album. And this was 1993 that we started talking about this. And it's funny because the Embrace album at that point to us seemed really old. But looking back on it, it was only six years old, right? It came out in 87. They were long broken up, they barely played any shows. And then Fugazi started. So it was kind of like this legendary band and record, right? They only did one album. It was 14 incredible songs. It was Hardcore Emo. Before we were using the word emoji, right? Like we just called it hardcore or like emotional hardcore back then. But that really was like one of the first kind of emo hardcore records. So Jason's idea was like, oh, wouldn't it be cool if we got a bunch of bands to record covers of the Embraced album? And I was like, that is pretty cool. So we started talking about it and at the time, I had started putting on hardcore shows in the basement of my parents house in New Jersey, which is actually where I am right now. And so Jason was like, oh, well, you know, like more of the current band. So why don't you like help me out, like finding some cool bands. So I reached out to all the bands that I was aware of at the time. Outspoken and Far side and Groundwork and Undertow and all these lifetime. All these cool bands. And I had gotten 14 bands to cover the Embrace record. And then Jason was like, all right, well you did a lot of the legwork here. Do you want to do this as like a co release? And I was like, well, what do you mean? I don't have a record label. And he said, well, just make a logo. Like it was easy. Like it. It sounded so easy and like stupid. But he was like, just make a logo. So I had started Trustkill fanzine. I had one issue out and I went to my buddy Jeff and I was like, hey man, do you want to make me a logo for Trustkill? I think I'm gonna put a record out. And so I had this idea to do like some kind of wood, some like wood looking thing with the word Trust Kill. And my buddy Jeff drew that. And then I had a label and then we just figured out how to, you know, it was all like, like cut and paste, glue stick style, like the layout of the album. And then that record finally came out in the summer of 94 and that was like my first album. And then from there I was like, oh, like, I can do this. I could put out another record maybe that's really how it started. Was up in Syracuse in my dorm room with Joel Jordan. [00:08:34] Speaker A: Yeah. So a couple things I want to push on there. So the first is like, dude, the Embrace record, it's. It's actually my favorite record. And it was of course, my introduction to Trust Kill and what would go on to be Trust Kill. I thought it was such a neat idea. And I also liked how some of the bands did different. They weren't just doing like a true cover, they were trying different things. With it. Like, Undertow's version was really, really cool. [00:08:59] Speaker B: Really cool. I like how the nation's on fire, like, switched up the lyrics a little bit, right? Like, they said something about Belgium or. I don't know what they said, but it was cool. [00:09:11] Speaker A: It's a neat idea and something that I think, like. I mean, I don't know what people do now, but it felt like kind of like uniquely of the time, you know, like, where before, when you and I were chatting beforehand, before we started, it was like the idea of nostalgia wasn't quite, like, wasn't really there yet. We were like, there was just, like, new stuff, and the past seemed a long time ago, but it really actually, realistically wasn't there that long ago. It was really, really cool. But also going to what you were saying about just, like, how your friend was like, oh, yeah, just put your logo on it. Just like, you know you've got a record label now. [00:09:44] Speaker B: Yep, it was that. It was that easy. [00:09:48] Speaker A: Right? But also, then it's that easy. But then what? You did not just change your life, like, change the life of, like, untold people and became, like, a real business. And, of course, we'll get into that. And part of the reason why I started this podcast and also why I have people like you on here, is that idea of doing something sometimes can be huge, and there's just crazy amounts of stuff to navigate. But a lot of times it's just about having the willingness just to do it and just be like, yeah, I can do that. When I started the business that I run, it was like I was working for another company that kind of sort of did something like I did. And one of our clients, one day, I was having dinner with him, just leaned over to me, like, we're at a big table, and he leaned over to me and was like, hey, why don't you just start your own business? Like, what you do is different than what your company does. Why don't you just put out your own shingle? And I was like, can I do that? Like, can I just start a company? He was like, yeah, why can't you just come up with a name and, like, get a business license? And I was like, I guess this is kind of like just starting a hardcore band. Like, yeah, I can. And the way that I did it was I just went about it the exact same way that anyone starts a hardcore band or a hardcore record label. Like, I just started this business that has gone on to do all these cool things. And it's part of why you and I are talking, and there's so much. There's like, a lot of. A lot of wisdom in that conversation with you and your friend of your friend just being like, yeah, just go and do it. And while it seemed like low stakes, it actually was life changing for you. Just. Any thoughts on what I just said? [00:11:18] Speaker B: There's no. You're right. It was, you know, the three of us, me, Joel and Jason. We were hardcore kids, right, From New Jersey. Had been in it for years at least. You know, for me, I. It was seven years already at that point. And we just kind of like, lived and breathed that, like, DIY ethic, right? Like, if you want to do something, just figure out how to do it. Let's just get it done. So whether that was putting on a show in my basement or making a fanzine or putting out a record or, I mean, really, anything. Just starting a band, like, whatever it was, we just. We just had that mentality. Like, and we were young, we were 18, 19 years old, and, like, we could just do whatever we wanted, change the world. And hardcore was like. It felt like that, right? Like, it felt like everything was in reach. You know, before I went and saw Underdog, like, my first hardcore show, I had seen a couple concerts, right? I saw Bruce Springsteen and Ziggy Marley or, you know, whatever. A couple. You know, it wasn't a lot, but I saw a couple concerts. But really, it was like that first hardcore show where I was like. Like, I'm walking around the crowd and I see the guys from Underdog just hanging out at the show, and I'm like, this is so cool. Like, you're within reach. Like, you're right there. I can talk to you and I can ask you a question. I can, you know, like, that. That's just so cool. So it felt different. And then I think, you know, it was like, this was 1993, 94. Like, the Syracuse hardcore scene was, like, really something was happening there. And, like, you know, the Earth Crisis guys really kind of like, kicked off this, like, we can do whatever the we want kind of mentality. Like, we're gonna. We're gonna take over the world. We're gonna. You know, the vegan revolution. We're gonna. We're gonna make it happen. And I was. We all kind of got swept up in it. [00:13:20] Speaker A: Well, but. But tell me. And a real interesting. Your perspective as someone who was there. And by the way, you mentioned conviction earlier and shout out to Jim, I love you. You're the best, Jim, You. You rule and conviction Is, like, beyond legendary in my mind. One of the greatest, greatest bands ever, and I just love that guy. But, okay, you were there. Ground zero. I mean, did Earth Crisis not change the world? Because, like, from my perspective, they did. If I look at all the vegan restaurants all over the place, you tell me that there's somewhere in that chain of events that made that restaurant happen that didn't somehow get influenced by Earth Crisis 100%. [00:13:56] Speaker B: I was just hanging out with those guys a few months ago in New York. They played Sibs, you know, tattoo convention show with Dead Guy and integrity and stuff. It was really cool. But, you know, we're backstage and the catering was, like, incredible vegan food, right? And I just, like, I made a joke, but I, Like, I wasn't really joking. I was like, dude, you guys won. Like, you won. I mean, I can go to McDonald's and get burger King, get vegan food, like, wherever. You know, we're not drinking Eden Soy anymore. Like, soy milk that tastes like cardboard. Like, we have good soy milk. And, yeah, it's wild. They. I think they absolutely did 100. [00:14:44] Speaker A: Like, this idea that, you know, part of it is just like, oh, we're young. We can change the world. We can do these things. But it's like, yeah, but, like. But, yeah, you actually can do that. And Earth Crisis, to me, is like the ultimate example of, you know, it wasn't just like, a bunch of young people who, like, you know, had a good idea, put out a cool record, and then, like, kind of burnt out and went away. Like, not only changed the world, but also put out multiple great records, continued to do it for years. Still a band now. They're still relevant. [00:15:14] Speaker B: They're kind of an anomaly in that fashion because, I mean, ever since they. Since Chris Weichman quit or got kicked out, I forget which. In, like, 96 or whatever that was. And Ian's brother Eric joined the band. It's been the same five guys for almost 30 years now, and they're all still vegan, straight edge. All their wives are still vegan, straight edge. All their children are vegan. Straight edge. Like, it's a pretty serious thing. I don't know who I could say that about any other band, you know, 100%. 100%. [00:15:57] Speaker A: So let's go. Let's go back to Trust Kill. Like. And I know. So there's. There's a lot of history after that kind of initial. Initial space. And it's not that I want to downplay that, but where I'm real interested in is you know, you start the record label and it's kind of like just like right place, right time, right friends. You start it and then. Then you follow the normal thing. You put out a bunch of records that are cool, like awesome, like Despair, which is like one of my faves from that time. That time, Harvest, the shirt that you're wearing now. I love, love Harvest. And I'm so stoked that they got back together and put out what I felt was a great, great return episode. You did a lot of stuff, but at one point the record label changed. So maybe just give us like a super teeny little history of that, of that time. But I really want to talk about from that moment forward where things started to become serious and started become more of like a. Like a business, I guess. [00:16:52] Speaker B: I think it changed right around 99 or 2000 when I with bands like Poison, the well, 18 Visions, Walls of Jericho, these are bands that were like really taking the scene by storm. Incredible live shows, putting out incredible debut albums on Trust Kill. But then also this was around the. So I also started law School in 1998 at Syracuse. So I graduated college in 96. From Syracuse, I moved back to Jersey. I spent two years touring with my bands. I went to Europe with Despair. We took Jim Winters. It was awesome. I went on tour in the States, Harvest and Endeavor. I just toured with a bunch of my bands, fucked around. I was young, I didn't want to commit to anything. I knew I wanted to go to law school, but I postponed it a year or two and I finally went back in 98. So I think like at that point I started like figuring out like, oh, I should probably have contracts with these pants, right? Like everything before that was strictly handshake deals, strictly diy, which there's nothing wrong with that. I mean, a lot of labels today in 2025 are doing that, which is not a big deal, right? If you're doing small stuff, these are your friends, right? And so it was right around like 99, 2000, where I was like, all right, I need to have if I'm going to like invest like real money into these bands. And I didn't have real money back then, but I was slowly making money. Like with each release I'd make a little bit, right, to put in the next one and just barely getting by. But like I was like, all right, you know, like Poison, the well walls, 18 visions. I started investing some real time and effort and money into them and I needed to have futures. So I signed them to multi album deals and that's really like, what allowed me to then, right? So then, like, my distributor at the time was Lumberjack. And so Lumberjack was like, all right, well, we'll give you a small advance because now we know that you're not full of shit or you're not gonna, like, all of a sudden not put records out, right? So they gave me like a little advance and so that I could do what I was doing for these bands. And yeah, I think that was really it. It was like the right bands at the right time, get them signed for a couple albums, and then I really had something. And then two years later, I signed a distribution deal with Sony and they gave me a seven figure funding deal, which was massive. And that's really when things kicked off. [00:19:58] Speaker A: So when you hit this kind of like, you know, you had the initial phase where it was just like kind of typical hardcore story arc. And then it became a little bit more serious and you were having these bands that were like, distinct. They're having big debut albums, and it became just a little bit more of like a. Again, say, like more of a serious business was it all. And this is just my interpretation of being the audience of this. There seemed to be this, like, trust kill arc where people are like, hell, yeah. What they're doing is, like, different. It's not just like building off of what Rev did. It's like taking that and taking it in a different direction and kind of setting their own. Their own footprint. But then it started to become big, big, and the bands were maybe bands that like a band like 18 Visions, where it's like, you know, that's like not a band that your typical hardcore kid at the time was gonna, like, relate to. They were very, very different and then became more and more and more different. Did there come a point where you started feeling a little, like, pressure from people where, like, they're like, what the hell is this? Or was it always just total support? [00:21:10] Speaker B: You mean, like, from fans or like, or bands or the business? [00:21:15] Speaker A: Any of it? Was there a point where you started getting a lot of, like, pressure, blowback, criticism, like kind of like people who loved you turned to haters? Any of that? [00:21:24] Speaker B: Of course, yeah. [00:21:25] Speaker A: I mean, when did that start kicking off, though? [00:21:28] Speaker B: I mean, probably around the same time. Right. Because no one was talking when I was selling 500 copies of records. Right, right. But then, you know, all of a sudden, 18 visions, Poison the well are selling 5, 10,000 copies of records. And then like, every kid on Lamb Goat is like, you know, these dudes or, you Know, whatever, like, stupid they were saying. And that's kind of when I felt like. Like I knew I was doing the right thing and I had the right bands. And of course, like, me being me, I like to, like, ruffle some feathers, right? Like. Like, I knew signing a band like Race Trader was gonna, like, make people, like, talk. So. Yeah, I mean, you know, Race Trader and, like, you know, Walls of Jericho have a song about rape. And, like, just all these things were, like, in your face. Like, these bands mean something and, like, they're important and they have something really important to say. And that's. That's really, like, where I came from. Like, that's what I was about. I wanted bands that were, like, meaningful, you know, singing from the heart, talking about important stuff. And. Yeah, I mean, you know, the blowback definitely came when bands started, you know. I mean, even when, you know, I put out 18 visions until the Ink Runs out, and it was, like, very heavy. But then their very next record was Vanity, which sounded a lot different, but it was cool, I thought. But it was a lot different. And, like, I could see why people would. If they're not, like. If not, like, really, like, in the scene and, like. And, like, knew what was happening. If you were, like, a little bit outside side and you hop on Lambgo, you know, you talk your. But there was definitely a lot of that. [00:23:14] Speaker A: Well, Trust Skill consistently kind of went further and further and further into the. Into the unknown. And I don't want to see other labels weren't doing similar things or they didn't, you know, like, I'm talking to you specifically, so I'll just focus on you. The thing about Trust Skill that I. I was watching at the time is it went from more of kind of like a traditional hardcore label that had, like, you know, your. Your fast bands or heavy bands. You know, you're kind of like a little bit more emotional bands, like, whatever it is to getting more. Like, the bands were bigger, the packaging was really nice. Everything made sense. Everything was distributed well. It just had more of a feel of, like. No, like, we're doing something now. And I remember when, like, all the bands you're talking about, like, when that 18 Visions records came out, just things felt different. And it really felt like the label was, like. I don't want to say making a statement, but it was, like, definitely going in a direction that it didn't seem like anyone else was going into. And then it led you off to, like, this crazy, crazy trajectory that I want to get into. But when you just Said, like, hey, I don't mind. Like, ruffling feathers is kind of my. My nature. Like, how did you deal with that period where suddenly you're going to. And like, okay, like, lamb go. And, like, you know, respect the lab goat. Like, you know, like, I think. I think we all, like. We could all see the worth of having that as a thing in the punk and hardcore world. But outside of that, just having people, like, kind of feel take the liberty of, like, really saying mean shit. Like, how did you handle that? [00:24:39] Speaker B: I mean, I was okay with it. I got. I got thick skin. Like, I don't know. I wouldn't still be here if I, you know, cried every time someone said, oh, I can't believe you. You've ruined the dyes today and you made them wear eyeliner and nail polish. I'm like, I didn't literally do anything. Like, I don't. You know, I've never helped a band write a song. I've never, you know, none of that stuff. Like, every band I ever signed, the Trust Kill, I signed them because I believed in them and I believed that they were going to deliver a great record. And I trusted them. 100, right? So I never wrote a song. I never helped any band. You know, it's funny, I was actually talking with Nick from It Dies Today recently about this, and we were joking about it because he was like, yeah, of course. You never told us what to do. Or, like, helped write a song or he's like. He's like the most you ever did. He goes, I think I sent you a song from the studio one time. And he goes, you told me you needed more breakdowns. And that's all I said, right? Like, I didn't, you know, I wasn't commenting on anything else. I'm just like, he's more breakdowns. But. But, yeah, I mean, you know, I always knew the truth, right? Like, you know, there was all this, like, you know, backlash when I put out a Hopes Fall record because kids thought that I. I removed a song or something. But, like, the truth was, the band's management and us, we agreed on, like, the track listing, right? And the sequence of the album. And then in order to have a release in Europe and Japan and Australia, we had to have bonus tracks. So we just decided which tracks were going to be bonus. And I did that with literally every record in the mid to late 2000s, every big record that mattered was licensed overseas with bonus tracks. And that was just a totally normal thing. But, you know, some kid says on a message board, That I pulled a song off and I'm like, that's not. That's not true. That's not how this all went down, you know? [00:26:54] Speaker A: Well, one of the cool things we'd said about punk and hardcore in the beginning and when you mentioned that Underdog Thunderdog show, where you're like, damn, like, these guys are just in the crowd. So, like, one of the cool things about punk and hardcore is, like, the accessibility to people. But flip it. And I don't just mean punk and hardcore. I kind of mean, like, subculture in general. One of the hard things about it can be, like, within a subculture, pretty people can be pretty brutal with each other. Like, not even pretty, like, really brutal. And part of it is because you care. Like, you care about this thing, you're passionate about it, and there's all sorts of things we can talk about. But then accessibility sucks then, because suddenly you've got these people who are, like, saying all this, like, really horrible and also, like, just dead wrong stuff about you and your friends, and you're like, I don't even know you. Why are you being so harsh to me right now? Like, as you're telling me, as you're telling me now, it seems to like, you know, like, yeah, it was no big. It was no big deal. But at the same time, like, I mean, there had to be some level of, like, was there any, like, processing or were you just like, whatever, I don't care. [00:27:52] Speaker B: I think I'll just like, whatever, I don't care. Because honestly, the talk back then were from people who weren't at shows, right? Like, there was no talking at the shows, right? So as far as I was concerned, in the 2000s anyway, right? Like, now we're in 2025. Hardcore does exist online, right? And on the apps and on social media. But back then, hardcore was only about the shows. And when I was at a show, no one said anything to me, right? Everyone knew who I was. And I would be at literally every show and every festival when I was touring with my bands and everything was totally fine when it was like, face to face face, right? So the talking was just like, people that, like, you know, wanted to be anonymous on the Internet, right? Like, there was more anonymity, I think, back then than there is now, right? Like, now it's like, you talk, I know who you are. Come see me at a show and we'll. We'll talk about it. [00:29:00] Speaker A: So there's that kind of part of. Of trust go where it's like, you know, first walls Jericho lp and. And all those bands. But then it's like you take a next step. And you'd mentioned the distribution deal with Sony, and then the bands went from selling, like, you know, before it was like, 500 records to, like, I don't know, like 5,000 records to 50,000 or 100,000 records. Tell us about that time. [00:29:23] Speaker B: That was a big leap. That was something I could have never imagined, Right? Because I knew that, like, back then, in the 90s, early 2000s, you know, the biggest I could ever imagine a band being was, like, Gorilla Biscuits or Minor Threat or Earth Crisis. [00:29:46] Speaker A: Right, right, right. [00:29:48] Speaker B: And those bands were. Only. Had only sold 10, 20, 30,000 records, right? So then all of a sudden, I get this distribution deal with Sony, and they're like, yeah, here's a big checkbook that you can use to market your bands. And I was just kind of like, all right. So I saw it like some, like, Robin Hood shit where I'm like, all right, I'm gonna steal from you. It's like, you're gonna give me all this money and you're gonna let me spend it on hardcore bands. Then that's exactly what I'm gonna do. And I'm gonna spend as much money as I can and do all the shit that I've always wanted to do, which included, like, wild. Like, you know, I called up Alternative Press and I was like, hey, what would it cost if I put a CD sampler in every single magazine that you. That goes direct mail to all your entire list? And they're like, well, that sounds crazy. And I'm like, I know, but I want to do it. So, like, I made that happen. And then I did it with Revolver magazine and then Bleeding through got an offer to buy on the Ozfest. And I was like, holy shit. Like, this. This could be huge, but it's a lot of money. So I went to Sony and I was like, listen, I just showed him all the numbers. And I'm like, this is the band. This is the tour. This is the album. If we do this, we are going to sell a lot of records. And I was right. And that was, this is love. This is murderous. We put them on Ozfest. And then we placed the record at retail, right, in the Best Buy end caps and at. At Hot Topic and Kmart and wherever else we could. And we ended up selling 150,000 copies of that record. And then I did it again with Throwdown. And then I did it again with Walls of Jericho. And then I did it again with the Dies to day, all these bands were bought on Ozfest, but really it was just. I just considered it marketing money. Like, this is at the time. This is the greatest way to market my bands and these new albums. [00:32:02] Speaker A: Yeah, and a lot of the stuff that you're talking about, I mean, I. I don't want to. I don't want to disrespect any what anyone else would have, what anyone else did. But it seemed that Trustkill was the first, if not amongst the first labels that were doing things like that. Like, when you're talking about the end caps and like all this stuff, it's like, I distinctly remember this. Like, I remember seeing it and being like, whoa. And I was touring with my first bands at the time and was like, whoa, that's crazy that they're, that they're doing this. And I was talking to a friend of mine about this just recently, how, like, it just felt like what Trustkill did set the tone for what became the norm after that. Like, you know, for example, CD samplers, like all of these things. And now, of course, like, you know, CDs aren't a thing. Like, you. You kind of had to be a part of that time to understand that. It just became like a normal thing. But before trustscale and I guess what other labels would have been doing that at the time, it was not a thing for like underground, smaller labels to be doing that. What are your thoughts on that? [00:33:03] Speaker B: No, you're right. I was, I don't want to use the word cocky. That's not the right word. But I was very convincing. And I knew by the early 2000s, when I had my Sony deal, I. I knew for a fact that I had the best bands with the best records. And I was very convincing, right? Like, I was, you know, living in New Jersey, but I was taking the train to New York two or three times a week and meeting with everyone at Sony and meeting with every single salesperson, every single radio person, every marketing person, and convincing, you know, hundreds of people. Well, first of all, I had to teach them what hardcore was, right? Because, you know, like, there was no hardcore pull down to like select your style of music, right? Like everything fell under metal. And I would say, this is not a metal band, this is a hardcore band. This is different. And 99 of the people at these companies did not understand that. So there was a lot of education there that I had to do. But again, I was very convincing. And I just went in and I'm like, listen, these bands are better than anything you guys are doing. Let's put these records, let's, you know, let's place these records where kids will see them and they will buy them, because I know they will. And. And they did. And I, you know, I look back at like old emails to like, you know, the CFO at Sony, like me just like being this like, you know, 23 year old kid or however old I was. And it was like pretty wild, like the stuff I would say to these people. But it worked. And I just, you know, just, just kept moving it, like, just kept moving the needle. It's like, all right, well, if we're gonna place this new throwdown record on the end cap at Best Buy, then we should also put a sampler in it. And then we should also put a, a trust kill trading card inside of it. And then we should also put a 16 month calendar inside of it. And then I was doing crazy, like I would. I figured out how to vacuum pack a T shirt to a CD. And then like I got Hot Topic to buy CDs with the T shirt and I'm like, put them in the racks and like no one else did that. So again, I saw it as like, like some Robin Hood type shit. Like, these are my friends bands. I'm gonna dump as much money as I possibly can into them and see what happens. [00:35:50] Speaker A: So, because I want to ask you all about like big business money, like being injected in and all that kind of stuff. But let's just talk about. You'd mentioned like at one point it all kind of the wheels came off and you lost control of the label. So what happened. [00:36:08] Speaker B: Towards the end, the end of the 2000s, if you recall, CD sales started slipping, right? So all the big bands that were putting record. So like, if you think about like 2004, 2005, 2006 was probably like the peak of CD sales, right? And just kind of like the scene in general in a way, right? Like Fallout Boy, My Chemical Romance, just like all these huge records coming out selling, you know, Taking Back Sunday, like all this stuff. And by the end of it, by the late 2000s, all of a sudden bands were, you know, like a new Shadows Fall album was, you know, where they had hoped it was going to do. 50,000 first week, it did 15,000 the first week, right? And like I started seeing the real, like, I started seeing like the reality of like, oh, like CD sales are slipping. And I then switched over to Universal in 2007 and the deal was okay, but it was very front loaded with debt because I had to most of the money they gave me, I had to give to Sony to get out of the Sony deal. So then all of a sudden, I remember, like, looking at, like, our projections and talking to my business manager, my lawyer, and I start, like, looking like we had, like, columns, right? With, like, the years, right? Like, 2007, 8, 9, 10. And I was like, all right. So I'm looking at the CD sales and in our projections, we had, like. Like we always did, right? We had, okay, well, this band, album two was going to sell this amount, but we project album three is going to do better. It's going to sell more. So that those were our projections for the next three to five years, was that each band's next album was going to sell more CDs than it was the prior one. But that turned out to not be true, right? Every single band started selling less and less and less. And then we had the financial collapse of 2008 or 9. And it wasn't just Trustkill, that every release was selling last. It was every single label. So all of a sudden, distributors where, like, I could go to them and say, hey, I need half a million dollars to put this band in Ozfest and put them in a bus and place their CD on end caps. All of a sudden they were like, I don't think so, because we don't believe you anymore that just that CDs are going to sell because they're not selling for anybody. So that put me in a bad spot at Universal. And I saw the writing on the wall, you know, at least a year and a half in advance. And then me and my lawyer, we start flying out to la and we're doing this whole thing and we're meeting with, you know, everyone at Universal. And the guy I signed my deal with, he unfortunately died, like, six months after I signed the deal. The president of the company, they got a new president. I remember walking into this meeting and he's wearing a cowboy hat, and I'm like, oh, boy, here we go. Like, this dude doesn't know jack shit about my company, my label, my bands, my scene. He knows nothing. And that's really what it was. He goes, who are you? What are these bands? I've never heard any of this shit. Your records are selling half to a third of what you projected. And I was like, well, yeah, the business is not doing great. And, you know, so I knew that we would be out of money at a certain point. So I'm like, all right, you need. We need to, like, renegotiate my deal or you need to let me go so that I can continue to pay royalties and sign new bands and put out records. And they just refused. So they were a secured creditor of my company, so they knew that if they said no that there was nothing I could do. So I had to walk away and start fresh. And they just foreclosed on the assets of the label, which at that time were just the masters and really weren't worth much because in 2010 they were taking in more returns. So they were taking in the returns of all the CDs that I had shipped in the early to mid 2000s that were sitting at retail at Best Buy and Walmart and Tower and all these companies, all these retailers that were like, closing down their CD sales, right, like shipping everything back. And Universal took in close to a million return CDs for Trust Kill, which turned every, every band's, you know, royalty statement completely upside down. And, like, the debt was just massive. And they're like, well, what do you want us to do with these CDs? And I'm like, well, what can we do with them? They're like, well, we can destroy them, but then we're also going to charge you to destroy them. But that was a fun little thing that the major labels did. They would destroy them for you, but charge you to do that. So it was just like racking up, like millions of dollars of debt and it was, you know, insurmountable. So I had to just walk away and start cleaning. [00:41:58] Speaker A: What was that like for you? [00:41:59] Speaker B: Man, it was rough, brutal. I mean, not only did I start from zero, like, the distributors weren't giving advances at that time because everyone was like, what are we doing here? Are we trying to sell CDs? Are we trying to sell downloads? Like, no one was downloading records at the time. It was all about, you know, P2P, like peer to peer sharing. There was no such thing as streaming yet. And it was rough. I had my side hustles, right? I was doing some, some legal work, I was doing design work, and it was rough. I. I started Bullet Tooth and I wanted to continue to use the same partners I had been using, which was like merch now for my merch store. And I was using Revelation to distribute vinyl and, you know, to make sure that like, hardcore kids and the mom and pop stores had my records. But I also had debts with all those companies that I had to take on to Bullet. So I was starting from way, way less than zero. And I had to sell a bunch of records to scratch my way back to zero, to then start making money. So it was really hard. But, you know, some of the bands came with me. They wanted to put out new records. First Blood, Most Precious Blood, Memphis Mayfire. You know, some bands I had on Trustkill that made sense to put out on Bullet Youth came with me. And, you know, then I signed new bands. And eventually, I'd say by 2014 or 15, I finally, like, had a real business and a real label. And then that's around the time that streaming really became a thing. Right. I remember I had a friend looking at, like, all my numbers of the business and financials, and he was like, man, you're kind of like, people are. You're making money from streaming. And I was like, I am. I didn't even realize. But he was like, yeah, you're, like, consistently making money each month. And I didn't realize because I was so focused on, like, trying to sell some CDs and trying to sell some vinyl. And, like, vinyl wasn't a big deal, right? Like, in the late the 2000s, 2010s, you know, I was licensing a lot of that out, which might have been a mistake, but, yeah, it was. It was rough. It was hard. [00:44:32] Speaker A: Kind of going back to that time. Like, I distinctly remember this because I think right before this happened, you put out a record for Outbreak, like, a picture disc, and, you know, that was. [00:44:45] Speaker B: Actually a distribution deal or Ryan's record label. Think fast. Yeah, so that, again, that was a. That was another way that we were, like, trying. So it was like. We knew CD sales were, like, dropping off a cliff, right? So it was like, do we dump more money into these bands to try to sell more CDs, or do I try to get more seed, different CDs to sell? So that's when I did that Think fast deal was like, all right, I'll put out Ryan's records, and I'll take a small fee and I'll help him out, which I did. And that deal was awesome. I put outbreak on the Saw 6 soundtrack, and we did some cool stuff. But that also all kind of fell apart shortly thereafter. [00:45:31] Speaker A: Yeah. So I'd kind of, like, lost track of Trustkill as I got older and I went off with my own stuff with music. And then I got into my professional career. It wasn't that I forgot about the label, but what I was into and what Trust Kill sounded like diverged, like, quite a bit, but also, like, I always just thought it was, like, neat. I thought it was neat what. What you were doing. I like the idea that you. You kept it small. Like you hired your friends. You just kind of like, while you had, like, a lot of money coming into, like, being invested in, you kept it, like, within your crew, within your friends, and all the bands I know kind of made sense within your circle. So I always. I watch it from a distance until I kind of forgot about it. And then Outbreak came along and I was like, oh, yeah, that's cool, because I was friends with Ryan and those guys. And then, of course, this implosion happened. And one of the things I thought about at the time was I knew that you had a legal background, that you were a lawyer. And I was like, well, I guess that guy's just going to become a lawyer now. But you didn't. I know you are a lawyer and do legal stuff. But you rallied and you came back with another label. [00:46:41] Speaker B: Why? [00:46:42] Speaker A: Like, why did you do it? [00:46:45] Speaker B: Yeah, it's crazy to think about. I mean, it's kind of all I knew. I mean, I just. I was so invested in music and hardcore and the scene and these bands and, man, I just really needed to, like, I just really needed to prove something. I had something to prove. I'm like, it. I'm gonna do it again. Like, I don't need you, you know. You know, like you said, I never spent money. Like, I spent money on my bands, but, like, I trust Kill never ever had an office, right? Like, I was in the basement of my house with all my friends coming every morning to, like, come into my basement. And, you know, I'm there barefoot, right, hanging out with my dogs. And I got five or six people there and there's interns and, you know, it was wild. But, yeah, I mean, I had something to prove. I. I just knew I was good at finding great bands and putting out good records. Not just like, you know, I. What's crazy to me is that, like, I've been putting records out for 30 years now, but I only had people working for me for about six or seven years, right? That was it. So it was just me up until 2000, whatever. And then by 2009, I had gotten rid of the entire staff. I'm like, I can't pay you. You gotta go. It's going back to just me. I'm gonna figure this out. And then I started Bullet Youth. And I'm like, it. I did this once before by myself, so I'm gonna do it again. And I had a little more know how. And I, you know, designed my own website and I started, you know, doing everything I could Just to make it happen so that. [00:48:36] Speaker A: That moment. And I don't want to. I don't want to sound disrespectful as I say this. I mean it. I mean it in a nice way. You built up this thing that was unique. Like, it was. It was really unique. And it had crazy success. Like, we were talking about some of the numbers of records that sold before we recorded, and you blew my mind by how. How much? At least one of those. A lot of those bands, I had no idea they sold that much, but specifically one, I could not believe how much they sold. So you had this crazy level of success, but then it implodes. And this is. I don't mean to sound terrible, but it's like you kind of eat shit publicly in front of everybody, like a huge audience. Metal, punk, hardcore. And you got people in there who are fans of the label, who are like, oh, that's sad. But knowing punk and hardcore, there's a lot of people like that guy or fuck that label or whatever. [00:49:25] Speaker B: You know, it's funny. Like, I just saw some quote from Pete Wentz, right? From Fallout Boy, saying how at some point, he said. He said, you know, I think the world has had enough of Pete Wentz for a little while. Like, I. You know, he kind of wanted to, like, go and, like, be private for a little while. I'm like. I kind of felt the same. Like, looking. I didn't think about it at the time, but, like, yeah, you know, looking back at the 2000s, it's like, man, I was everywhere, right? Like, I was running Hellfest. I was, you know, putting out the best records, and. And I was doing commercials on, you know, MTV for all my records. Like. Like, me as a person. Yeah. No one else was doing that. Like, I was everywhere all the time. And I bet people probably got sick of me in a way, right? Like. And it's like, if you were in my circle in the 2000s, there's a pretty good chance that I was gonna make something happen for your band. Whether or not you were on Trust Kill, right? Like, I. If I liked your band, I was gonna put you on tour with Throwdown. I was gonna put you on tour with was Noel, and I was going to put you on Hellfest. And I was going to get you in this commercial and put you on this soundtrack and, you know, sign it. Sign your label to a distribution deal. There was just, like, a lot of things that I was able to do for people, but which also just, like, put me, like, in the spotlight, like, for a long time. [00:50:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:50:58] Speaker B: So, yeah, I can see why, you know, and I think, like, there's a lot of confusion back then, too. Like, people thought, like, I did something to the label, like, I on purpose, or, you know, I screwed bands somehow. And I'm like, no, I think if anything, like, the bands were all free to go do whatever they wanted to, you know, like, once it ended, like, they could go sign to whoever, like, sign to Rise Records or Stay with Me, but, like, whatever they wanted to do, they could go do. You know, the albums I put out were heavily debt ridden. So that was kind of like an impossible situation at that point. But that's also part of the story of me going back to Universal in 2018 and trying to get the rights back. What's that? Beyond.