Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: There is a differentiation between Selfworth and DIY culture, and I think once you feel comfortable in both, it can stretch your personality. Once you actually know within yourself how you want to work with who you want to work, on what basis you want to work, then people will also find you to know our own fear and is so important because we don't really want to come even near to differentiating what it is for us to be afraid. There is perhaps a whole sets of personal troubles that an individual is bringing, and one thing is to actually have a sense of what the story may be all about.
Do I have enough capacity to tolerate that? You cannot heal others if you do not really apply the same approach to yourself. Self care is the key.
[00:01:09] Speaker B: That was a clip from today's guest, everyone. I am super stoked on this one.
I talk a lot about how I came up professionally before I got into what I do now. And a huge part of my story is being a therapist and working in addiction and mental health. And I love having people on the show who've got that background, who's got that same background. And today's guest is someone who's both a super old friend of mine and also someone who comes from that world and is really just a very inspirational, cool person. This is a great episode. So thanks for joining us, and I hope you get as much out of it as I did. Before we get to it, please rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast. My name is Aram Arslanian, and this is one step beyond.
Welcome to the show.
[00:02:12] Speaker A: Hello and thanks for having me.
[00:02:14] Speaker B: Heck yeah. All right. So for the uninitiated, for those who don't know, who are you and what do you do?
[00:02:19] Speaker A: Let's start with the identity, because that comes with the name. I'm Patricia Jackson, and my story and my life story begins in Poland.
I spent half of my life there. I was born and raised in Poland, and I think that also shaped the person that I am today.
And 20 years ago, I moved to this country, which is England, London.
[00:02:47] Speaker B: So what do you do professionally?
[00:02:49] Speaker A: I'm a jungian analyst, which is a very specific type of working with the psyche because that actually indicates that there is a deeper layer that binds all of us together.
And I tend to, with my clients, go very deep to this area to see what's happening at the core, at the base of human psyche before we will start seeing it, the personality on the higher levels of the psyche. So I'm a jungian analyst.
[00:03:25] Speaker B: So as a starting point, that sounds outrageous, super cool. I can't wait to get into it.
Just from a practical point of view, do you have a private practice or do you work?
[00:03:34] Speaker A: Okay, it was not like that to start with, because before you will actually jump headfirst into private practice and working with clients on one and one basis, you need to have lots of years of training, supervision, professional training, supervision, and also personal work. There's almost like two streams. You work on yourself and you work on shaping your professional attitude to your clients.
That's the professional training.
And I started by working in institutions because then you've got variety of clients.
You work with people from different ethnicities, different social groups, with different. They are bringing different mental disorders to the consulting room. So that gives you an overview on how you can work with them, what sort of techniques you can apply to specific areas of work.
But then when a transition came and I became a mother, big transition in my life, I decided that I want to work with my clients differently. And I think with my own personal change came also a personal change. And I started to apply some of the adjustments to the way I was working. And now I practice from home.
[00:05:10] Speaker B: Amazing.
So let's get into the profession. So, jungian analyst, how would you explain that to someone over a coffee? If someone's like, hey, what do you do? And what does it actually mean to do that? How would you explain that?
[00:05:25] Speaker A: When Freud and Jung together started to shape, the beginning of, historically speaking, the discovery of the consciousness basically started with those two individuals paving the Model of the psyche together, Freud stopped at the level of individual Unconscious. So consciousness. And then underneath was this huge sack which he called the individual unconsciousness. Jung went almost one layer deeper, and he said that underneath that layer of our psyche, there is also something which he called the collective unconsciousness. And that in this Model, which he developed, is bonding all of us together. And he placed archetypes there.
So when I work with clients, I am very much interested of searching that area and to look in what is happening in the psyche on that level.
[00:06:38] Speaker B: So something that I always find totally fascinating when people go from working in or are in an industry, and they go from working in an organization and then working from themselves, that transition. So you'd mentioned part of it, and maybe the initiating factor was becoming a mother. Was there in that transition? Was there anything about learning how to become, like a business person because you've went from working in an organization to now having a business?
[00:07:04] Speaker A: Absolutely. I think that there is also something about shaping the environment the way you want and maybe creating a healthy, atmospheric nourishing environment as you would as a parent for your child.
And I was also thinking about bringing that mindset, the framework of creating something nourishing not only for your clients who are there for nourishment, but also for yourself.
And I think the intentionality was always my key, how to shape this environment so I can actually thrive in it myself.
[00:07:48] Speaker B: So if we go to the idea of working in something like a system, like a big system, and then stepping outside of that, once you have a body of work and you've become known in an industry and you know how to do it, it's a bit safer, but it's still a huge leap of faith. So how did you find that in you to go out on your own?
[00:08:10] Speaker A: Wow. Let me just think about it. Personal integrity.
Personal integrity, which then you can transmit via yourself into your environment.
And maybe that is slightly idealistic point of view, but I think it works.
Once you actually know within yourself how you want to work with who you want to work, on what basis you want to work, then people will also find you. And very often you hear this as a sort of cliche in the working environment, but it actually works. So there is something that you transmit as an individual which people with the readiness eventually connect to, and they come and find you.
[00:09:03] Speaker B: I love that. And I totally agree. So I'm not sure how it would work in the UK, but in Canada there are kind of general standards for how someone should charge if they're going to have a private practice, but you can charge beyond that. You can kind of set your own price. Is it the same here?
[00:09:21] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:09:22] Speaker B: So what about charging your worth and how do you figure that out for yourself?
[00:09:28] Speaker A: I had an amazing experience many years ago when I was in my financial transition myself, and I felt overloaded with work. And I went to see my supervisor and she said to me, charge double. And I said to her, you must be out of your mind, you're crazy. I don't feel ready as a person to be actually worth in myself according to this new scale you're proposing. And she said, well, if you want to stop the process, then send a message to the client that your worth is now this and that, and if you want to be rejected, they will reject you if this is what you want to create for yourself.
And it was almost like a professional experiment, but an amazing life lesson I received from her and I did, I started to charge double and the amount of clients I received was phenomenal. I thought it's going to stop the process, but it actually accelerated the process. Because what actually happened psychologically within myself was that I needed to catch up with my own self worth.
[00:10:51] Speaker B: That is amazing.
I'm going to make a punk analogy if I can go for it. So, you know, like when we both were coming up in punk and hardcore, we have that archetype of pay.
Make your product in charge the littlest amount possible and shows should be the littlest amount possible. And I love that on the community aspect, it's like we want everything we do to be ultra accessible. And punk is such a great life lesson for how to get things done and to kind of put yourself into new situations and really figure things out. But where it's not a great lesson is how do you value your worth? And it's like, do I think minor threat should have been charging like some crazy amount of money for their records? No. But I do think that one of the lessons you can learn from a band like minor threat is how to get things done, how to create your own community, your own network. But as a professional, you should get very comfortable with charging an appropriate amount for your services and not undercutting yourself.
[00:11:52] Speaker A: I'm with you on that. There is a differentiation between self worth and DIY culture. And I think once you feel comfortable in both, it can stretch your personality and bring you to different sides of yourself without underestimating one side of yourself or overestimating the other side of yourself. DIY was great. DIY was this moment in my life when I really felt that you can achieve, with the sense of communal collaboration, anything you want and people would support you.
Which may not necessarily translate to what self worth is because that's a different definition. A different part of yourself would have to be activated to go into self worth. There might be a bridge between them. I'm interested what your opinion on that might be, but they are not the same aspects of our life.
[00:12:59] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. So I can't speak to anyone else's punk experience, I guess is the term I'd use. But I found punk and hardcore because I grew up in a chaotic home, very chaotic. And I experienced a ton of adversity, just like bullying and tough stuff. And I found punk and hardcore as a total refuge.
[00:13:22] Speaker A: Solace. A complete solace.
[00:13:24] Speaker B: Yeah, complete solace. And I dove headfirst into the DIY community aspect and not at all into the self worth side of it.
[00:13:32] Speaker A: Right.
[00:13:33] Speaker B: And I didn't really get to that side of taking care of myself until I was much older.
[00:13:40] Speaker A: I think it was part of my journey via hardcore as well. But I was able to pick on this healing aspect that sin provided. Because once you have and you can really comfortably land into the belonging to belong, especially that you share. Most of punk kids, they are coming from very diverse and sometimes very troubled backgrounds. And when they found themselves in the space which actually holds them and some sort of nourishment is provided via punk rock, because they are not judged, they are supported by the mates, they can very often activate this creative spark in them. Playing music, creating zines, taking pictures at shows.
And this creativity and the sense of belonging was for me, the key attribute which then brings you farther in your own development.
[00:14:57] Speaker B: Yeah, totally.
So if you were thinking about your job and how you work with clients and help clients and they help you, you build your relationship, how would you juxtapose that with punk and hardcore and what you learned from there?
[00:15:10] Speaker A: Very often my clients are coming with almost the same life motif. They are lost and they are traumatized. And because I went through the same journey as many hardcore punk kids, your journey is also touching upon coming from a problematic family system, family background, you do have a sense of actually spotting that they might just need a little bit of differentiation of who they are as individuals and to help them to connect to that sense of knowing that there is something in them which is great, which is amazing because they've been whatever happened to the individuals, they could be traumatized, they could be bullied, they could be raped, they could be part of whatever adversity happened in their life.
Once you are able to scoop them up and say, okay, let's work with you on that level. Who are you and who you meant to be in your life?
I think that's always the key of balancing a person.
[00:16:33] Speaker B: So when people have come to a place where they want to start working on their stuff, as you know, it can be really challenging, it can be overwhelming, because like, where do I go? Do I go to a community service? Do I go to a therapist? And also, what kind of therapy? So from your perspective, what's a way that someone who's just thinking about doing some personal work or getting some help, what are some of the first steps that they could take to find their way through that kind of process?
[00:17:03] Speaker A: Recognizing that they do need help because that's very often this initial pull that eventually will help them cross the threshold.
We quite often don't seek help because we don't even say to ourselves that we do need it.
Once you recognize that there is something problematic in your life and you can address it, you have to differentiate that within yourself and say, okay, I need help now.
[00:17:34] Speaker B: And how would someone know or having an opinion about what kind of service they should have? So, for example, the kind of work that you do, why would someone go to someone who offers your specific, because you offer something so specific, why would they go to that versus something else?
[00:17:51] Speaker A: That's a very complicated question, but a great question, because most of the people, they don't really know what sort of services are there and how they can actually use and benefit from each specific angle. Most of the time, that's just a chance, something random, which we as Jungians don't really believe because there is always this layer that brings us together. So if you have a person in your practice, we actually say that you receive a patient that you need and not that you want to receive, because the growth always happens on both sides of the relationship, professional relationship.
The person that comes, walks through the door is also a person that will one way or in one way or another, influence you. You know what? I'm also thinking that this is an amazing question. With entire psychotherapeutic world, we would really have to face that because we don't really have a professional Persona as psychotherapists, which means that we don't really have this differentiated business card which we can put on the table and people can actually read and say, do I need to go to cognitive behavioral therapist? Do I need to go to a jungian analyst? Do I need to seek for more clinion oriented psychotherapy?
We don't really have that type of professional business card, which will be a shortcut in relation making process between us and people who seek for help.
And perhaps that is also something we need to work on.
How do we create that bridge with people?
[00:19:53] Speaker B: I love what you're saying.
I believe you know this. So when I was working as a therapist, I did CBT, I did cognitive behavioral therapy. And whenever people in my job now as a coach, a business coach and leadership coach, whenever they talk to me about therapy and they say, well, I'm going to go to a therapist. And I always say, well, what kind of therapy do you want to go to? And I think most people know there's different kinds of therapy, but it's kind of like, I'm going to take my car to the mechanic. Well, what for? Do you need to go to brakes? Do you need a transmission?
So whenever I ask that question, what kind do you want to go for? They always say, well, jeez, I don't know, what should I go for? And I really encourage anyone who's thinking about going to get any kind of help? A. Yes. Awesome. That's great. And it's like, it's not a one size fits all. Like, you should do a little bit of research.
[00:20:49] Speaker A: And also when they start their journey, they may look at the level of the personality on this very top layer.
I'm in the crisis now.
I have suicidal tendencies now.
I don't really know how to get myself out of the problematic relationship now.
So now be suitable for someone who seeks more cognitive behavioral psychotherapy. Cris intervention is another modality which would be good for now. But when you look at the whole mother of the psyche, those now oriented problems, they do have root in a person. They do have root in previous stages of person's development. And CBT may not be enough for that layer of personality which was wounded before. So with more psychodynamic oriented modalities, you would look into what happens at the core of the problem formation.
And that's quite often longer oriented psychotherapeutic process. You have to be quite engaged and determined because we sometimes work with clients for 510 years. And that's great. It's a process. So you're developing along the therapy, so you're growing with yourself within the framework. Within the therapeutic framework.
[00:22:36] Speaker B: Yeah, totally.
I love that you differentiated that. I went through a really difficult period of my life, which you know very much about, and I want to get to something that you played a big role in helping me do in regards to that. But I went through a really difficult period of time. And right when it all kind of, like, popped off, when everything was really difficult, I literally just typed trauma counselor into Google. That's how I found. Although I came from this background, I'm like, I don't know who to talk to. So I typed in trauma counselor, and I found this guy named christian monks, who literal, actual lifesaver. And I worked with Christian for two years. I went and saw him every week for two years. And that idea of long term therapy, I love that you talked about that and differentiated. Like, if it's a now problem, you're probably looking for a quick outcome, something that's very structured, intended to create quick results, which I was working in addiction at the time. Exactly right. Boom. You want to create really quick results. And I love that you brought up the idea that therapy can be, and in some cases should be a long term process. Yeah, of course. However, on tv, movies, and everything can kind of make that long term therapy thing seem kind of, like, whingy and like, oh, that person. But it's like, well, no, you have a long term relationship with your doctor, and you have a long term relationship with all sorts of things that are helpful. So why wouldn't you do that therapeutically?
[00:23:59] Speaker A: And that is also helping you in understanding how you can assist yourself through crossing major developmental stages, because you're changing. So when you start a therapy, you may have a whole sets of problems to differentiate and to overcome at the beginning.
Then you will change. You transform as a person. You will have a better sense and understanding of who you are in relation to yourself, to your family, to the society, to the loved ones, to the environment as well.
And it's a process. So you're growing alongside with your therapist, observing how those changes are occurring in yourself and allowing that process to flow. I think that's really important to place it in the context of the process, which is a very living thing.
It's alive.
It's not a framework. It's something that is touching your soul.
So it has to be alive, it has to be long term oriented. Although endings are also very important.
And how to do the good ending is the key of good psychotherapy.
[00:25:25] Speaker B: Yes, I love that you're bringing that up. What can you tell us about having good endings?
[00:25:29] Speaker A: When you're ready, you know, and your psyche knows.
Quite often in therapy, there is almost a mythical ending dream.
So you can see how the person and the conscious eye is tapping to the wisdom, which is coming from the deep level of the psyche, from the unconscious. And when the dream comes, quite often, that's this moment when, you know, they arrived to this coherent level of themselves, when they can go and challenge and face challenges outside of themselves without the need of having a good object in the form of psychotherapist, because they do have now an internalized image of a psychotherapist. So they do have a capacity to have this ongoing dialogue within themselves, which is a stretching aspect of the personality, really.
And I think that's also this moment when you know how to cross the threshold and without stopping, without having a good ending, you will be, in one way or another, kept within the sphere, the space with another, which is your therapist. But all rites of passages across many different cultures, they speak about this moment when a candidate, a warrior, needs to differentiate and separate from whoever was guiding the PersoN thus far. And then you need to do the jump yourself. You have to have enough integrity within yourself to say, now it's my time.
[00:27:27] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. So I know this is a very big topic, and take it whatever direction you want. You'd brought up this notion of the collective unconscious, which fascinating, like super cool. Could you tease that out more for the audience? Explain in whatever way you're comfortable about what it is and how that really connects to the work that you do.
[00:27:48] Speaker A: So in jungian model of the psyche, we do place archetypes on that collective unconscious level. And if you think about archetype, when you hear the word, it combines two patterns together. Archetype is something that is archaic and typical. So it's the oldest part of our psyche, older than consciousness itself.
So it's archaic and it's typical. That means that it goes across the humankind, so everyone has it. A good example of an archetypal expression are fairy tales that are bringing an archetypal message across the culture, which can be similar. So you may have an archetype of the hero. Which one culture organize fairy tales, stories in specific way? In JApaN or in MEXicO or in MIddle east, they will have an archetype of the hero that is dressed in a specific form.
So stories are touching, coming from the unconscious, from the root of the archetype, through the cultural, and then to the individual.
Think about Star Wars.
I do all the time. Amazing example of the hero Journey based on the JosEph Campbell storY, who was very deeply influenced by jung. So you do have this incredible story of a Jedi warrior that is past, and the knowledge and the mysticism of that connection to the source, which they call the force. The force. The force is an amazing expression of an archetype of the self.
[00:30:07] Speaker B: So how does that connect to the work that you do with clients?
[00:30:10] Speaker A: I do listen to the individual stories, and I try to differentiate in which myth are they currently in?
Are they in a redemption story? Are they in a sacred marriage story? Are they in an ugly duckling story?
And then I would see, via that differentiation of the personal narrative, I would go deeper and then deeper and then see how to bring something that was potentially traumatized in them as person back to the source, using the cambellion or the terminology from the Star wars, how to connect them back to the force, to the source, to the original wholeness, no matter how you're going to call it.
[00:31:09] Speaker B: So if you just say, again, this is a big question, what's the goal of your work? What's the goal of your work?
[00:31:15] Speaker A: Consciousness.
[00:31:16] Speaker B: Consciousness. But what does that mean?
[00:31:18] Speaker A: I will base it within the jungian model of the psyche. So at the base, you have always the unconscious, and from that, consciousness is being born.
And during the process, many disturbances may happen. Development happens itself. It doesn't really have to be prioritative. It can be actually very positive development happens. The personality needs to be differentiated from the unconsciousness. And the more you're able to differentiate, the more conscious you're becoming.
So it's a process of discrimination, really. You're trying to differentiate what's mine and what's unconscious.
[00:32:08] Speaker B: You brought up trauma earlier, people experiencing trauma, and something that I have noticed over the past many years. So there's like a common usage of words that typically would have been within more of, like the helpers world, like archetypes or trauma and many others. And I think it's great that people share a common language around health. That's awesome. But where I think it gets a little sticky is when people knowing what they want to work on and how they want to work on it and maybe having almost too much information that they're bringing into it. So how do you manage people's experience with you and the work that you do? How do you manage that with all of this information that they might have gotten about trauma or health or any of these things from outside sources in.
[00:33:07] Speaker A: Terms of overflowing me?
[00:33:10] Speaker B: Yeah, it would bang heads with the process or create contradictions within the work that you would do.
[00:33:16] Speaker A: But maybe we could try to differentiate. What is the nature of the question? Because look on one side, there is an intensity of someone's trauma, and there is perhaps a whole set of personal troubles that an individual is bringing. And one thing is to actually have a sense of what the story may be all about.
Do I have enough capacity to tolerate that and to welcome a person with everything they are bringing?
That's one thing. Another thing is contradiction. Yeah.
Because someone can come to your practice and they may have a political agenda which contradicts your political agenda.
And that is a slightly different angle of approaching this question, because once you are integrated within yourself, you can welcome this person and establish a dialogue knowing that they are not crossing your boundaries because you're good.
[00:34:37] Speaker B: Can I give you an example from my world? So I work with a lot of senior leaders in many different industries, and of course, there's, like so much philosophy about leadership and so many speakers and so many coaches.
There's something out there for everyone. There's nothing wrong with having it. But what I'll come up against sometimes is people will have this kind of toolkit they've put together from, like 50 different sources, and they've stitched together something that has tons of contradictions in it in itself.
And when we get into our work, it's not a barrier. But it's extra. It's too much extra. And very recently I had to said to a client, you need to pick which direction you want to go at this because I don't want to have to be in a position where you or I have to justify the ideas that we're talking about against the past 20 years of your career. So if the philosophy that you've got right now has been working for you, great, go with that. Find someone who works in that area and run with that. That's totally awesome. If you want to play in the space of newer ideas or different ideas, great, let's do that. But let's not create an attack defend kind of scenario about how I can justify my work with you versus all these things you've worked on for 20 years.
And it's not that I find it frustrating or say like only the ideas I work are the only valid ones, it's that people have so much access to material now that I find it can confuse a conversation rather than clarify a conversation. It's like the paradox of choice. Too much choice, too many ideas, doesn't mean you've got cleaner thinking or more focused thinking. It can create a confusion and mistiness.
[00:36:24] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
And maybe there is also a beauty in having different personalities around and a beauty which comes with being contradicted. Because if you know how to approach it well, you can also think about it as a stretch.
We're not here to only work with people we like.
I actually think that challenging encounters are very often coming from those relationships who are on the other side of what I like.
That is your stretch.
[00:37:09] Speaker B: I like what you're saying. I really like what you're saying.
I find myself the further I am in my career.
I don't want to say my patience. Maybe I should say my patience is shorter for people that I have to bring along too much right in my body of work. I like when someone shows up ready to do the work rather than trying to pull them along into the work and earn it and get them there.
But there's a lot of validity, not bullet, and there's a lot of validity to what you're saying. Maybe that's a good place where I can stretch myself, get back to take back some patience.
[00:37:43] Speaker A: But also on the other hand, you do have a choice.
You do have a choice in how you want to create the environment for you. Your modality may be slightly different than my modality. My modality. I'm not going to say I'm accepting this, this and that, patient and if you are bringing another type of psychological occurrence to my consulting room, I'm not going to work with you. Although that differentiation once happened in my personal growth and professional formation.
When I became a mother, I was very conscious about the difficulty I came across when I was working with video files.
And that was this moment when I very consciously said to myself that I cannot do this work because there was too much entanglement and too much transference, which I found very difficult. So knowing what you can and what you want is also a key factor. You do have freedom to say, this is the avenue I'm not going to be exploring.
There are other people to do it.
[00:39:12] Speaker B: So you've brought up something that I think is super important, and I appreciate you brought it up. Should everyone, no matter what, have the opportunity to get help?
[00:39:21] Speaker A: Absolutely.
I really do believe in the power of healing, and I really do believe that we might be lost, we might be confused. We are coming from very different backgrounds. And once I encountered the intensity of criminal psychopathology, it's beyond anything I could possibly imagine in terms of darkness.
And on one hand, you can really try to go into this discourse thinking, are they victims here or they are creators of an evil? I don't know. Perhaps this is also the combination of both.
But from the healing or therapeutic perspective, I do strongly believe that everyone deserves help.
[00:40:23] Speaker B: In one case, it's like a simple conversation, like, yes, definitely. And then on the other case, it could be like, complex.
[00:40:29] Speaker A: Most of the time it is complex.
When we speak about deep psychopathology, we are speaking about factors that sometimes occurs on the brain level.
We're speaking about family patterns that are very difficult to overcome or to even break, to work with them, to make them more plastic. The plasticity of such pattern can be very difficult to achieve. Therefore, the transformation is very difficult to achieve. And the question you have to expose yourself to in moments like that is how much time you can give yourself as an individual to work with individuals like that.
[00:41:21] Speaker B: So that brings us to a topic I'm really interested in for you. What about self care as a practitioner?
[00:41:28] Speaker A: Number one topic, you cannot heal others if you do not really apply the same approach to yourself. Self care is the key. You cannot work with consciousness if you do not care about your own consciousness.
[00:41:49] Speaker B: So how do you take care of yourself?
[00:41:51] Speaker A: I go and I'm allowing myself to be held by nature, to soothe myself in. Nature is my number one tool, which I'm giving myself. And that's real gift, that's a real decision. When you say, now this is what I need. And now this is what I'm going to give to myself. Veganism, another big one.
It can be a radical self help, self care self help as well. How you differentiate the harm that has been created in the world, in the environment, between humankind and animals, and how much you want or you do not want to participate in that, so you do it for others. But if you will think about all the death that you then consume, and you are making that decision that I want to make it part of my system, that's problematic. So to spot that and to differentiate that, that I just don't really want to create that relationship between my word and. And the death that comes from outside, that's a radical self help.
[00:43:17] Speaker B: So how good are you at talking with other people, friends, family, anyone that you go to sharing about your own challenges? Are you someone that is comfortable sharing, or are you someone that kind of keeps it in?
[00:43:33] Speaker A: No, you can't keep it in. I mean, the tendency quite often is like, I'm good.
But you're becoming more and more neurotic when you do not share because you want to step into your Persona as someone who's good. I think what makes us human is this fundamental reality that we are also in the process of our own transformation and our own development, and without obstacles, without stress, without speaking about our own personal traumas. We are two dimensional.
We need to be three dimensional. So that's this realness that you are actually integrating back to your personality because you're not a God which presents itself to the world as this perfect figure who has all your shit together. Can I say that?
[00:44:40] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
So can I share something with you about how you've helped me?
[00:44:48] Speaker A: I think I know exactly where that was.
And this is really, perhaps important to also give back to you that this was between me and you. One of the deepest conversation when I really felt connected to you. But you go on.
[00:45:08] Speaker B: I was a. Barcelona.
[00:45:09] Speaker A: Barcelona.
[00:45:13] Speaker B: And so for everyone who wouldn't know, this part of it is both Patricia and I. We've known each other for 20 years. Ish.
Maybe more than that.
[00:45:25] Speaker A: Maybe more, yes.
[00:45:26] Speaker B: And we met in Poland when my band at the time was playing a show. There was our first show in Poland, and I said hello because you were wearing a Texas of the reason shirt. And I was like, that's so sick. That's awesome. And shout out to Texas of the reason. And you and that whole crew of people have gone on to become lifelong friends.
Many years later in Barcelona, I'd gone through a very, very difficult period of my life. And I had made this kind of.
I was like, the only way I could handle anything was just bring everything inside. And it was a time in my life where I really distanced myself from almost everyone I knew. Became very quiet, only spoke to a few people. And I'd found through music, but also just through my professional career, I was really spread out. I knew tons of people. I knew a lot of people who I guess I would have said, like, oh, so and so is my friend, but it's not that they aren't a nice person or that we don't have warmth towards each other, but they're not like, friendships, they're just music friends. Right. I went through this really difficult period that isn't just about one situation. It's a bunch of things all kind of popped off all at once, including some really heavy stuff with my family. And I just shrunk back into myself hard. And I became very angry and extremely anxious. And I didn't want to talk to anyone. I didn't want to say anything to anyone. And I started coming out of it a little bit by putting myself out there a little bit more. I'd gone to therapy for a few years, and here we are in Barcelona, and my band is playing its second show. Our second show is in Barcelona at a festival which was wild and out of anyone. You said to me, are you going to talk about this thing? And I said, no, I'm not going to talk about it. I don't want to talk about want. I don't want to put myself in that position anymore.
I don't think I can talk about it and do a good job, which kind of was a surplus level maybe thing, but more it's I don't want to talk about it because I'm afraid of talking about it, and I'm afraid of being in that discourse, and I'm afraid of being attacked. I'm afraid of saying the wrong thing.
I'm afraid of, like, I can't keep it together. And you were so firm but gentle with me in that conversation of, like, you need to do this. And as a result, I've gone on to speak pretty openly about that whole thing. And it's been, I hope, good for anyone who's heard it. I've had many people speak to me about it afterwards and be like, wow, I'm so glad you talked about that.
It was a huge thing. So thank you. Because it's what I needed to hear from a friend at the time.
[00:48:14] Speaker A: This is an amazing example that is showing how we understand our defenses.
What happens when we shrink, when we close all our doors and windows, because it's too painful to come outside with the intensity of feeling that we really want to split off from the world and perhaps from ourselves.
But that creates a cauldron, that creates this empty space in which nothing happens.
So there has to be some sort of movement. And very often the movement comes within, when you are sitting still with the intensity of difficulty and trauma on your own. And then when you're ready, you start opening your doors and windows and you start sharing. And so your personal healing can then touch other people because your difficulty can be an inspiration for other people. Because your healing process can also touch other people. And that's very brave decision to make. When is a good moment to come out and actually start speaking about it? I remember this moment in Barcelona when I said to you, you have to speak about it just to introduce a bit of a movement to this dense space which is helping you to survive, but it can become a prison for.
[00:50:10] Speaker B: Your own self, which it had. And there's two things I'm going to say, I'll say about it. The first is, you're very good, because I'm used to speaking to people. So I'm very good at getting myself out of conversations that I don't want to be in. And I'm really good at moving a topic or whatever. And you're very good at not letting me do that.
Totally. You really kept me.
[00:50:36] Speaker A: But I think it was a shared feeling for me to feel your anxiety and for you to feel my firminess. Because I felt at some few moments of our conversation that I really needed to reach for that wounded part of yourself and bring it back to the conversation, which is a very gentle dance, because you must never force. But if you feel that there is a window of opportunity, and I felt that you were defending yourself, but you were also ready. There was this part of you which was ready, maybe not on the conscious level, but I really felt, okay, you can heal that.
You really can heal that.
[00:51:31] Speaker B: I'm not all the way there, but I'm in a way better space about it. So the second part I'll share is like, four days later. So we're out on this tour. That was the first show of that tour. We're out on this tour, and someone comes up to me in Prague, I think, and wants to talk about it. And first words are in my mouth are, I don't want to talk about it. And it was someone that I had never met before. I said, I don't want to talk about it. And they just said, well, I'd really like to talk to you about it. And I said, okay. And then I had this.
What was interesting for me or not interesting? Super relieving. I was like, I don't want to talk about it because I was like, I don't want to talk about this because I'm afraid of this conversation. And really, once I got past ok and the person started talking, they were so kind and so cool, and we had such a wonderful conversation. And from that, like, a few weeks later, we're on tour and we're in Portland, and my friend Rudy came up. I hadn't seen Rudy in years, and he was like, I want to talk to you about this. I hadn't seen him in, like, five or six years. And again, I was like, I don't want to talk about it. And he was like, dude, come on. And I was like, okay. And we ended up having this really great conversation about it. And since then, it kind of, like, opened up the doors where I've been able to not gratuitously talk about it for all the reasons I want to be cautious and appropriate about how I talk about things. But I feel from conversation to conversation, I've been able to do it better and better with more openness.
I feel I've been able to do it in a way that I hope is helpful to anyone, that that whole thing mattered to, but I wouldn't have been able to do that. Or maybe it would have taken me longer unless we'd had that conversation. But, man, I was like, I don't want to talk to you about this right now. And you hit me with it in such a wonderful and kind way, but, like, super firm, and it was good, and I appreciate it.
[00:53:36] Speaker A: Thank you for saying this. But I also wonder if you can hear yourself because you are saying something very important. I was afraid to talk about it. To know our own fear is so important because we don't really want to come even near to differentiating what it is for us to be afraid.
And how do we welcome our deepest shadow? What is it that we are the most afraid of?
And to come into an intimate relationship with our own darkness.
We were talking about what's the most important aspect of my work, and I said, consciousness. You cannot achieve consciousness without knowing your darkness. So simultaneously, you're working on those two levels together.
How can you introduce consciousness, the light? And how can you actually face your darkness?
[00:54:42] Speaker B: It's interesting, you say that because coming up in punk and hardcore, especially the kind of punk and hardcore that we came up in, positive, hardcore, important ideas, lots of really politically radical ideas, it's very easy to kind of fall into this trope of me and everyone I know are good people and everyone else who doesn't agree with us are bad people. Or at very worse, they're neutral. And it kind of fall into these categories of good person, bad person. These are the lost people who are kind of neutral and going through true life challenge.
It's funny because up to that point, I thought I'd had a difficult life. And then I hit about a five year period where it was like, no, this is what a real nightmare is.
Understanding what I need to work on and what I actually like, what is the dark side of myself and what I need to work on.
And then what is the good stuff? That's like, the actual good stuff, not just these punk politics that I thought were represented, who I was. It was good. It's been a terrible situation, terrible period of my life, but really good to go through that process. But it's also crazy that I was in my 40s before I went. I didn't learn about myself until I was in my 40s. So I wanted to thank you for that because that was such an important part of that whole thing, of my whole journey with that, but also just an important part of my life to be with someone that I love, I respect, but also for that person who literally lives, like, on another continent. I only see once every few years to be like, let's talk about this. Because it was a time in my life where people are like, let's not talk about this. And I was like, let's do one better. Let's not talk about it, and let's not talk. I want to go hide. So you did something that was profound for me, and I'll never forget it.
[00:56:34] Speaker A: That's what friendship is.
[00:56:36] Speaker B: Totally, yeah.
[00:56:37] Speaker A: Time and space may be generating different factors for us, but there is also this very important meeting which happens for me on a very different dimension.
It's great if you have a friend, you can hang out every day and meet at your favorite coffee spot. But that's not this type of meeting I'm talking about. When you meet someone and you really see this person for who they are in this given moment in day life and in also my life, because I really deeply remember this conversation we had, and I thought it was amazing to actually meet you on that level with your vulnerability, which you also needed to have. To soothe yourself, to defend yourself, because there was a wounded part inside. So you see, that's interesting how we speak about defenses, because they do have double factor in our development. They protect, but they also imprison us. If you are able to look at the defenses from those dual perspective, you can see why we do have them. And when is a good moment to separate ourselves from the defense?
When is a good moment to say, thank you very much, not anymore.
[00:58:11] Speaker B: And that idea of something being a prison was totally what had happened.
And then from talking about it is when I was able to be like, I don't need to hold this in anymore. So let's go to you specifically. So you'd mentioned earlier you lived half of your life in Poland, so love to know about where you grew up specifically. And then also, what was your introduction of punk and hardcore.
[00:58:38] Speaker A: So I lived in very eastern part of Poland, in the place which is in the oldest european forest, called Biaovieja forest. I am so very proud of being born in this place.
The other forest, which is as ancient as Biao forest, is Amazonia forest in Brazil.
It's the forest you can picture when you read fairy tales. Dense, deep, big animals, bisons, wolves, elks, foxes. You meet all of those creatures there. And so I remember when I was a child, I used to go in the woods with my parents, and I could see a herd of 100 bison just in front of me crossing. And that would give me this understanding of who I am as a person within the environment when I was meeting those big creatures. So bison is my spirit animal for sure.
And I was just really amazed how nature can teach you what nature can give you and how nature can shape your personality, and it certainly shaped mine. Now, this place of my origin is also a great mix of cultural lineages and backgrounds. So if you think of Poland, it is predominantly a white, catholic country.
The area I was born was influenced by Orthodox Christianity, tarks, jewish communities, and lots of minorities which coexisted in one place together.
So from very early on, I was exposed to variety of different folktales of different languages, of different religious beliefs, or just spiritual beliefs. And I think that was really a nourishing place to grow up in. And I was quite often tapping onto that healing element of my upbringing when I needed to face differences, adversities, challenges that were coming from my family system or from the schooling. This was always my solace. Nature is always my solace.
Earlier on, when you were asking me about what do I do for self care, nature is what I do for self care, being in nature, tapping into nature, gifting myself, moments when I can just go back to mother earth for sure.
[01:02:01] Speaker B: So in this place, growing up there, having these experiences, what was the thing that brought you or exposed you first to something that we have a shared passion for? Punk and hardcore. How did you find that? Or how did it find you?
[01:02:17] Speaker A: I am coming from this very obscure place in Poland where punk was quite big actually.
And my cousin was in a band and he was even holding a title of being a king of the punk scene. So I remember going to school as a little kid, seeing the graffiti on the block stating his name, and then saying, the king of punks. So there was a status already there.
And the first show I attended, I was 14. The band was called necro bestiality.
[01:03:08] Speaker B: Is.
[01:03:13] Speaker A: I had no idea what it even meant.
And I actually found out the meaning of necrobesiality when I was going into the deep psychopathology during my studies. Because I had no idea what is the meaning of the band. But this was my initiation into the punk. And it was amazing. I probably was one of the smallest kids there, so I've seen a lot. And the music was, I felt driven, it was ecstatic. It was certainly an initiation. I felt that there was such an amazing expression of freedom. And to see all the kids creating music, having fun, was amazing, was amazing. And I actually think that in spite of the name of the band, it was a beautiful initiation into a punk.
[01:04:11] Speaker B: So from punk and hardcore, we get initiated into this really worldwide thing. Meet friends from all over the world as we are.
It does something more, though. It introduces you to ideas, straight edge veganism.
How has what you learned in punk and hardcore, and the ideas that you've learned and that you've incorporated in your life, how has that helped you form up as an adult and a professional?
[01:04:39] Speaker A: What punk gave me was my connection to integrity and personal integrity.
And I think that was something that was not a given. I needed to shape it, I needed to confront it, I needed to actually question quite a lot of ideologies in life and differentiate what is it that sits well with me and what is it that I actually don't really like that much.
So being in the constant dialogue and having the space to contradict and to ask questions was incredible. That was the freedom that punk really offered, mind you, that I was coming from a very obscure part in Poland in the time when we actually call it a post communistic era. So there was no freedom, there was no space for questioning the reality or questioning status quo, which the government implied onto the society. So pank told me that, yes, you do have this ability. You can question the reality. And not only that, you can actually shape it.
And that was an explosion of creative empowerment, because out of that place, you do have this moment when you can say to yourself, I'm in charge.
[01:06:14] Speaker B: If there is one thing professionally that you bring into punk, or it doesn't have to be one thing, but anything that you bring into punk professionally, that's still part of your process. Now, what would it be?
[01:06:30] Speaker A: Not being afraid to step onto the sight of an outcast.
I think that is something that comes to mind initially.
If I would sit with this question a bit longer, probably we would find other answers. But when a patient comes to my consulting room and sits in front of me, I do see that there is a wounded part of themselves which they may not necessarily identify as outcast, but something like that operates within their psyche.
And it's not necessarily anything bad or good, but to be able to differentiate that part of somebody's life and to see how it can help them navigate, because being an outcast helped me to navigate.
You can actually build connections from that place and integrated connections from that place because you are more in charge.
[01:07:41] Speaker B: All right, so as we're heading towards the end of the interview here, we're going to end with the crucial three. These are three questions that are going to get dramatically harder from question to question to question.
[01:07:53] Speaker A: No pressure.
[01:07:55] Speaker B: But before we get to it, is there anything that you want to share with the audience? Any ideas that you want to talk on, any questions you want to ask me?
[01:08:04] Speaker A: I will have questions to ask you because that's what makes conversation alive. So it's not just an interview. We're having a chat. We haven't seen each other for a period of time, and I can see your development, and I feel so proud.
[01:08:19] Speaker B: Oh, thank you.
[01:08:20] Speaker A: It's great to have people like that in your life and to see how they are willing to share and to speak what their journey may be.
That's a beauty. So I may have questions?
[01:08:40] Speaker B: Okay, go ahead.
[01:08:41] Speaker A: So we're going to turn the interview into a dialogue?
[01:08:45] Speaker B: Yeah, sure.
[01:08:46] Speaker A: Okay.
What do you do in moments of your personal transition when you know that you can show up to your clients in a specific way, but deep within your soul, you feel that you're aching?
[01:09:06] Speaker B: So how do I manage myself when I'm aching? Even though what I do is such a in person kind of thing, how do I handle it? I can separate what I'm doing at the time from how I'm feeling, and I'm really good at that. So when I've gone even through the most difficult periods of my life, I've always worked full time, more than full time, and been able to be totally locked in. And something that either I have developed or it was a gift or it's kind of both, is I can completely focus on someone else, spend an hour, 2 hours, 3 hours, a full day, just really working through things. And then as soon as we're done, I can turn that off and not carry it with me, but then go into my own stuff and be like, oh, back to this thing, then.
[01:09:50] Speaker A: This is actually the moment I am so interested in, when you are able to separate, but then you are also having consciousness that there is healing that you have to do. There is a part of yourself that you have to attend to. What happens then?
[01:10:10] Speaker B: Something I do now that I didn't do before is I talk about it.
Well, it's funny because anyone who knows me would probably say, well, you have no problem talking. But I do have a huge problem talking. I am really good at communicating and creating moments, kind of setting the tone for everyone. I am terrible with letting people in and letting them know who I really am. Who I really am is the biggest one, I'd say. There's very few people who know me, who know who I really am because I've always had this kind of fence up around that, and I have gotten very good at talking about what's going on for me. And the primary person I speak with is my partner, Monica. But I've never had a partner before who I felt I could be really open with.
And that's not to criticize anyone that I've been with before.
We are just at different points in our lives. Maybe I'm just more open now to being that, but I speak with Monica about everything, every single thing. There's nothing I don't talk to Monica about. But I'm also very open with my friends, and I've really tightened my friend circle down. And again, not to speak, not a negative commentary on anyone who I've known in my life. It's that I've really boiled things down to, here are my friends, here are my people, here's my family, both my real family and my chosen family. And I just talk, and I will talk to Monica about everything. But I'll also talk to my best friend, Dave Larson, my other really close friend, one of my other best friends, Trey McCarthy. I'll talk to my friend Mike, who helps us through the podcast. So I talk and I do that more. And instead of the way I used to do things is I'd medicate things with events, I'd go on tour, I'd write a record, or I'd buy stuff. I was constantly doing things.
And then I'd medicate myself to a lot through exercise.
I got to exercise now. I talk through things and then add in some exercise as well. That's how I handle my stuff. I also eat a lot, but not eat my feelings, but I like a good meal. Like a healthy, good meal.
[01:12:16] Speaker A: That brings us to another question.
Where is the difference between personal growth and personal development and what you can do in the relationship so together with somebody else, with another?
[01:12:32] Speaker B: Well, everything I've done before up to this point has all been personal growth.
I don't know if it sounds terrible, so I'm 49 now.
I've never felt this level of investment in a relationship where I'm willing to grow with someone. It's almost more like it's probably the first time in my life where I've been like, oh yeah, this is who I'm going to be with forever. And it's not that I didn't think that before, but I think the evolution of who I was at the time, it's like what it means to be with someone when at that point I was like 25 or 26, was different than what it means to me to be now.
So the personal growth growth, the growth I've always pursued before was always just my own growth. And it only served myself where the growth now that I pursue is still some definite personal growth, but it's also in service of my family. And it's gone from totally, like, just focusing on myself to focusing on the people that I love and that I want to be there for.
[01:13:36] Speaker A: That's beautiful.
[01:13:37] Speaker B: It's weird, though. It's weird that I'm like 49 and it started coming to me about four years ago, and it might just be a life change, whatever it is, but I'd say that probably all change I'd gone through before was really just like self focused on what I wanted and where I wanted to go, where now almost all of it is directed on being a better person for my family.
[01:14:00] Speaker A: And relational space is the straightforward information about how we project.
So you're meeting your loved ones in this really sensitive transferential space, and if you can see how your projection works and pull them back, that's actually a beautiful growing process which you can gift yourself. To see projections is a gift totally.
[01:14:37] Speaker B: So what else you got? What other questions do you got for me?
[01:14:40] Speaker A: Okay, you are a parent, and you were and still are, hardcore punk kid.
How do you want to transfer your legacy into the next generation? And whether you see yourself as someone who may influence the next generation in one way or another, in one form.
[01:15:09] Speaker B: Or the other, the most important thing for all of our kids, because Monica came to our relationship with two wonderful children, and then I brought Leora with me, so we have a blended family with three kids. Here's my goal.
I always want our kids to feel that art and culture are like they're connected to each other. And that loving whatever band that you love has this rich cultural history behind it. And learning about stuff, like, kind of going down that rabbit hole of where did this band come from? What's it connected to? That's one of the coolest ways that you can learn about how to express yourself and how when people are expressing themselves, they're just encouraging other expression. I don't care what our kids listen to and where they land with those things, but I really care that they feel they can express themselves and they value other people's expression. That's probably the biggest thing. I totally care about vegetarian and veganism, though. That's the other thing. I want our kids to really understand the concept of mercy.
Mercy for animals. And what I mean by that is, I love straight edge. Like, straight edge is cool, but I don't care if anyone's straight edge. Whatever. I like that the idea is out there.
People can do what they want. People will choose to be sober pretty naturally, I think. And while I really reject alcohol and drug culture, I think that people kind of, like water, finds its own level with that. And I like that the choice exists. But I think veganism and vegetarianism specifically veganism is an ultra crucial thing because of how suffering is so normalized by the food industry. And the idea, like, you know how he's like cartoon cows, like cartoon cows selling steak. It's like, that's the craziest thing. And I don't want my kids to ever think that, to fall for that trick, that some dancing cartoon cow is a cool thing, because that's just a trick to avoid the idea of suffering.
Human beings have ultimate power on this planet. We can destroy anything. We can do whatever we want. You could go out today, you could find someplace where they have whatever animal, and you can say, I would like that animal butchered. For me, the insanity of how powerful human beings are and how every single choice that they make could have such catastrophic impact on the lives of so many things without even really thinking about it is like the power of a God and encouraging our kids to understand the power that they have in every action. But the concept of mercy, how giving mercy is such a simple thing for someone who's a meat eater, just eat meat less or think about how your meat is made or any of those things. For someone who's vegetarian, consider going vegan. Like for vegans, think about how you source your products, but also think about how you talk to people about veganism. And don't be a jerk about it. The concept of mercy and power is something that I am super passionate about for our kids, but also for people talking about in general, because the cartoon cow represents something that is so linked to some of the most destructive things, I'd say some of the darkest parts of the human experience. So that is ultra important to me.
[01:18:28] Speaker A: And how you are modeled that for children, because one thing is to approach an adult mind, and completely different aspect of the discourse is when you are approaching a mind of a child who is so very dependent on how you are getting the message across, how do you phrase that? How do you explain the concept of mercy to a child?
[01:19:00] Speaker B: So I'll get to the mercy piece in a sec. When we speak with Leora, who's our youngest, we talk about the inherent right that every being should have to its own life and to live how it wants to know. Like she's little kid, she wants to grab at the dogs and she wants to.
[01:19:19] Speaker A: It is very natural for them.
[01:19:21] Speaker B: Totally. She wants to poke an ant, all those things. So we just talk about that sacred thing of someone's life and their right to live their life. We talk about that since she was very little and she's still at the point where she wants to do the thing to the thing. But she's really good at listening to us now about it and being gentle with creatures. So we talk about that now, the concept of mercy, we haven't gotten there to yet, because I don't know if we're ready to talk about people who, it's not the people who don't have mercy because they're cruel, but the people who wouldn't even think that it's not merciful. So the idea, like animals were put here by God to be our food, to crack into that conversation, because that's then not a conversation about mercy with someone. It's about like divine right. And it's like the depth of how much I want to avoid that conversation. Just in general is out there, so we haven't gotten there with her yet. But I do think when we get there, it's that one of the things we do talk about is like, everyone's different. Everyone has the right to how they want to walk on this earth, and this is what we do and what we don't say. Because she has started to say when she sees people eating meat, like for at a restaurant, she'll have to be.
[01:20:44] Speaker A: No, but it's incredible to observe how naturally it comes for children. So Zofia is vegan. She's been vegan since birth, but I had within her friend circle, because she's now bringing her mates home and she is also influencing her friends. So it's not only my relationship and what I transmit onto my child, but how she is operating within her own friendship groups. And it's really wonderful to see. I remember this was just right after pandemic, one of her friend started to chase after pigeon. And it was just such a simple moment and such a simple observation of how this child was longing for a connection with an animal.
And just to actually notice that, that they do have a natural connection to the natural world because they are part of it, they come from it.
It's innate. And something happens with the way we are developed, raised.
You can apply so many different definitions onto what factors do we meet in our life which are shaping our mindset? The way we think, the way we think about what is the function of the animal in our life.
Once you will go back to the origin, which is the first meeting the child has with an animal, they almost know what to do. We don't have to tell them. And my approach to veganism and my approach to raising Zofia in such way was to always give her a lead, because this natural connection is so innate in children, and just to notice that, that they can do it and they do have the sense of what is actually righteousness within nature.
They are part of that nature.
Why would I harm something that is also part of me?
For them, it's not a state of merger. This is something I really want to make clear.
But they are coming from this place in development which we call original wholeness.
In the developmental stages, we call it a euroboric phase, when they belong to the reality which animals belong to, plants belong to. Nature is an expression of that. And out of that space they are also differentiating into the human ego form, and the consciousness comes from that. So it's not really about derouting them from that connection, but to preserve that connection, it's very difficult thing to do because we were also deroted ourselves. We needed to reshape the way we think about this connection, reclaim this connection, recalibrate ourselves with this connection. Children have it. They have it. It's given.
[01:24:34] Speaker B: I could go on and on about this. I love what you're saying.
One of the things I try not to do, and I'm really working on, is to start just pontificating from my soapbox about this stuff, because it'd be really easy to go from here. All I'd say is, everybody think about it. Just think about it. Okay, let's head towards the crucial three. Ready to go?
[01:24:57] Speaker A: Ready to go. I'm not sure if I'm ready to go. I'm not ready to go, but let's start.
[01:25:02] Speaker B: We'll start easy. If you were to pick one band, and it doesn't have to be a band that you've ever even seen, but if you were to pick one band where there was Patricia before, but then Patricia afterwards, the one band that created a kind of sea change in you.
[01:25:17] Speaker A: Sunny day real estate.
[01:25:20] Speaker B: Wow.
[01:25:22] Speaker A: Maybe verbal assault, but that's the second thought. Sunny day real estate.
[01:25:28] Speaker B: What is it about sunny day real estate?
[01:25:30] Speaker A: Depth 100%.
[01:25:34] Speaker B: Okay, you ready for question number two?
[01:25:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:25:36] Speaker B: What have you learned about yourself through your work as a union analyst that you wouldn't have learned about yourself had you taken any other career?
[01:25:46] Speaker A: That I do have a shadow and that it's also important and a vital part of who I am, so I don't have to split myself from it. I can be with it.
[01:25:57] Speaker B: This last question, which you're knocking these out of the park. These don't seem that hard for you.
All right, this last question is a two parter.
What's something in your life? It could be personal or professional.
Did you find about yourself that you wanted to change and that you've worked on and have been successful with? So you're not still working on it. So what's something that you've managed to identify about yourself you wanted to change and have been successful about changing it?
[01:26:29] Speaker A: Giving myself an opportunity for being with my own personal freedom. I never had a connection to that before.
We were speaking about defenses, to differentiate my defenses and to actually understand how I can operate within myself with the sense of freedom that is actually at the center of my creativity, my creation, my decision making process, the way I envision life in front of myself, ahead of myself, the personality I want to build, the sense of freedom and the connection that I actually do have. This right.
[01:27:13] Speaker B: Amazing. All right, part two of the question.
What's one thing you've identified about yourself that you want to change, but you're still working on? You haven't gotten there yet.
[01:27:25] Speaker A: I do have a volcano in me, which is part of my shadow work as well, and how to be with heated energy, which can serve me, because it's an intense energy without necessarily harming others.
So I can be with my own internal volcano without destroying.
We've been speaking about fear, how we create, how we destroy, how we manage that. Two powerful forces within us, creativity and destruction. They are part of the ceremaxis, and you really need to sometimes position yourself, am I going slightly to the site of creativity, or am I going to the site of destructiveness? Self destructiveness, destructiveness to others?
How am I keeping my shed together when I sometimes may want to explode because I'm sitting on something so very hot.
So I think that's a work in progress and perhaps forever. I don't know. It's an axis, as I said. So at times you need to distract in order to bring yourself farther in the development or farther onto a next stage on the journey.
But I think this is something that you have to hold within your awareness what power you are giving to your own destructiveness. Because we can destroy you. You were saying just a moment ago how the power complex. What happens if we tap onto this negative side of the power complex because we think that we can eat animal or destroy?
And how to manage that relationship with our own creative part and our own destructive part?
That's the work in progress.
[01:29:55] Speaker B: Amazing. All right, so you want to add anything in before we close off?
[01:30:00] Speaker A: I think I'm good.
[01:30:01] Speaker B: All right. This was an amazing interview. Amazing time.
[01:30:04] Speaker A: This last question was really.
[01:30:08] Speaker B: As advertised. Listen, you are someone I am so proud to call a friend. I have so much love and appreciation for you, and I see you just, like, sitting here talking to you. I'm like, God damn, this is, like, a really intellectual person here. I really had to be all in, in this conversation. I really appreciate it.
[01:30:28] Speaker A: It's so incredible because actually, there's quite a huge full on topics we've been talking about on the intellectual level.
But I am an intuitive feeling type.
[01:30:41] Speaker B: Totally.
[01:30:42] Speaker A: I'm not a thinker.
[01:30:43] Speaker B: Wow. You crush it today. All right, everyone, so that's it. I hope you got as much out of this as I did. Thank you so much.
[01:30:50] Speaker A: Thank you for having me.
[01:30:52] Speaker B: All right, everyone, we'll see you next time. I'm Aram Arslanian, and this is one step beyond.
[01:30:58] Speaker A: One step.
One step.
[01:31:07] Speaker B: One step beyond.
