Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: So with that, like talking about like, you know, maybe we'll take it away from the idea of falling flat on your face, but things ending and then heading into that kind of the unknown. So you've mentioned like the program that you've been leading for the past few years has wrapped up. So you as like a long term professional, how have you managed the like about that?
[00:00:22] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I'm going to be really candid.
So, yeah, I mean, as I say, I was given the news and in the first week of August we'd already sort of, you know, had a fairly transparent message from the very, very top at the beginning of the year that there would be a number of like hundreds of layoffs company wide. That number is, you know, a bit larger than was initially expected.
So in the corporate world, I've basically been thinking, okay, I work for a public company. That means I live my life quarter by quarter.
Am I safe this quarter? And that has been hanging over me, I guess, you know, in any sort of public company I've worked for. But especially with new, a new leader at the helm, Warner Music Group. It, you know, and I've thought, well, this is the reality. I can't change the reality. So, yeah, I sort of thought, all right, you know, the first wave of layoffs at the start of the year and then another in the next quarter, I paid attention to all of the public earnings calls. I was one of those few people that would religiously dial in and listen along looking for patterns, clues, where's the company headed? How can I keep positioning the program as something that is really crucial to the success within the marketing departments for the artists? And then, you know, at the end of the day, it's like with most of, you know, a lot of the jobs in marketing are the ones that have been eliminated. So it's kind of like, well, there was only so much I could do there to keep positioning Warner Music, you so receiving the news early August. So, you know, it works in that typical way where you get a calendar invite and it's your boss and then HR is sitting next to you or next to them.
So it was obvious what was happening. I have really good relationship with my boss, by the way, so he was the one delivering the info and it was just, yeah, I was immediately in tears. Just like, even though to some, in some ways it's crazy because I've kind of stayed quite rational throughout the whole, like, oh, we get a new co, then changes are afoot, right? I stay really rational. But then when I got the information it just hit me. So I signed out for the rest of the day.
I cried and cried and cried. The next day, it was like, right, time to take action.
And the first thing I did, because I was actually in the process of hiring the new rep team to start in the full semester, so I, you know, I was really in the thick of the recruitment process. So the first thing I did was I got with my direct report, because she was also affected, and came up with a game plan and said, look, we first have to make sure that the team's going to be okay, and then we'll deal with what we do. So the team first. So we made.
Made a mandatory call to speak with the existing team members around the US and we, you know, said it was really important that we had to speak with them. And then I delivered the message, reassured the team that, you know, they were all still on until the end of the year and that it would be quite, you know, a special situation for them because it meant that they would be in the final cohort of the program, like the last one ever.
So, you know, the responses from these young people were just amazing. They were like, yeah, great, let's do this. We're going to make the most of it. We're, you know, and some of them were saying that it was exciting because who knows what's next for them? Who knows what's next for their manager?
So I was really, you know, buoyed by their enthusiasm there. And then the next step was to make a round of calls to the reps that had just been receiving their employment offers, who were due to start in the fall semester. Because in those interviews, you know, we didn't know that that would be the end of the program, that it would be the last cohort. So I just made it a priority to make sure that we spoke to each individual new hire who was due to start and just give them, you know, a bit of a background as to what was going on, how this happens in the corporate side of the business.
And then, yeah, again, the response was very similar.
They were excited that they were part of the final cohort and they were going to make the most of it. So in that sense, I'm like, I'm quite proud of how I handled it because I gave myself that space to sort of grieve a little bit, then do the very urgent stuff, which was handle the communication.
And then I was able to take a step back and start thinking, right, okay, here's my time frame. I'm just establishing myself in the US in the music business because I've only been here a couple of years, there are lots of people that I can be having coffee with, having a chat with, letting them know that there's this situation and so on and so on.
So thankfully I, yeah, I've been. I've had a great sense of community among the people that I've met in the industry so far. And so many people have been fighting my corner and saying, I'm on Team Kathy. Let me know how I can help. I'm so, so grateful for it. And even introductions to people that were slightly outside of my network that I've had conversations with.
So, yeah, it's been a real grind because I've been doing that outside of actually running the program as well. So throughout September and October, I was just wiped out, having so many conversations, looking for roles, you know, with many other people in the same boat, also looking for work in the music industry. If you're working in marketing, if in the tech industry. There have been a number of layoffs and of course nowadays the music industry is in that intersection of tech and music. So it's tough out there. But as I say, I'm really grateful for all the support I've had along the way and the fact that there are things that are turning into something. So stay tuned. Very, very, very thankful. Yeah, that was it. But you know, I'd also.
Keeping in mind the fact that I'd learned how to deal with burnout in a. Burnout in a previous life, I also figured, okay, Thanksgiving break, me and my boys, so my husband and my step kid, we're going to England to see my family for Thanksgiving.
I'm going to work hard up to that point on trying to secure my next gig while simultaneously doing my job. And then as soon as we are on that plane and we land in London, that is it. I'm not going to do anything more. I'm just going to leave it. I've sown some seeds. I need to be fully present and enjoy my time over there. And yeah, I'm. I'm really grateful I did that because taking that time was really helpful. And also it's the way I want to handle these things. I want to make sure I have balance in my life and that I'm doing, you know, that I'm not sacrificing so much that it's affecting my, my home life and my family. So, yeah, that's, that's kind of how I've handled it. And I'm just thankful that I'm landing On my feet, it seems this time.
[00:08:10] Speaker A: Well, and thank you so much for sharing that because I know it's like, vulnerable and like, difficult to talk about and I just really. A, like, I know great things are ahead and B, I think it's really important for people to hear about someone who's like a tenured professional who is going through it and it's kind of figured out how to take care of themselves.
What pieces of advice do you have for someone, and they could be at any stage of their career who have found themselves unexpectedly in a position where their job is wrapping up.
[00:08:43] Speaker B: I know it's hard, but somewhere look for that silver lining. And it might not even be the thing that you want to hear at the time. I know the grieving process is four real because you pour so much of yourself into a role that, you know, you almost feel like, oh, I failed. I gave everything and it was a failure. But it isn't a failure. It is not.
Whatever someone has done in their job, they've been able to have an impact on the people around them.
They've maybe grown from the situation. Find whatever it is that you think that. Where is the value in what you're going through? What can it teach you now? Is there a hidden lesson in there that you need to learn about yourself that's, you know, going to empower you in your next position or just even if it, if it is a case of you realize that you need to take better, you know, prioritize your care for yourself, make decisions that work for you over what you're doing for other people. I think really look for the hidden gift in these absurd situations. And also remember, the world is crazy right now.
Give yourself lots of grace.
[00:10:06] Speaker A: I love that. You know, there's something that you shared in your story there I found super interesting where you're like, hey, I was like, I was the person that always made sure I went in and I was, I was on these calls when they were talking about the company performance and I was paying attention what was happening in the marketplace.
I, I think that's like a. Well, I don't know if it's unusual, but I've never, I very rarely have I had people say that they're paying that much attention. So one of the things that I always encourage people like when I'm working with, with anyone is the idea that like, very few, if any industries are recession proof and that very few, like very few, if any companies are like forever companies. You know, like most companies are going to have bad periods and they're going to have headwinds. And it even could be like, the company is actually doing fine, but they wanted bigger profitability this year, so they're going to, like, lay people off so they can hit a profitability number, which sucks. Like, I mean, that just. That just sucks. But that is also part of, like, working in companies that are within, like, a capitalistic society. So really I'm a big believer in people being a. Always interviewing, always looking for other jobs, always kind of looking for, like, what that next step is, but also really paying attention to what's going on in your company and what's going on the market. And I find it, like, really fascinating that you. It's very rare I hear someone actually doing that and doing that diligently. So what advice can you give people around that about, like, the level of attention that you pay to. To pay to things like that?
[00:11:37] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, well, anything can sort of border on a bit of a. An unhealthy interest.
Right, so. But certainly taking an active interest in. Well, it all starts with what is the vision for the company? Keep asking the higher ups, you know, from different departments what their vision. You know, what. What do things look like, have these open conversations. Nine times out of ten, if you do speak with a higher up, they are interested in engaging with you, so just do it. And if not, whatever, there are more. And so, you know, connecting with people in a higher rank in the company to sort of find out how their area of the business is going, just because you're curious, I think, is always a smart move.
And then, of course, you know, follow following diligently the press releases that come out. Because when you work for a corporation and you hear about someone at the top who's maybe joining the company or someone's being let go or changing paths or being promoted, those press releases usually land in your inbox at the same time as them going out to the trade publications. So in this case, it would be Music business worldwide probably received the same news we did from the same email, because, you know, as soon as an email is circulated internally in a company, you've basically gone public. So generally nowadays, everything's going out all at the same time. So when you get one of those communication emails, you read every last word in there because there are clues that show you sort of the direction in which the company is headed. And I have found it fascinating, again, being objectively, even though it affects my job, being objectively, sort of following objectively what the changes are at Warner has been really fascinating for me. Because it's raising bigger issues as to, oh, how is the industry at large changing?
So, you know, I don't know. Of course, when you sort of, you know that you're out of a job, that is tricky.
But it's interesting as well because you still see yourself as being involved in the industry. So it sort of gives you a bit of an inkling as to, well, if the majors are doing this, they're trying to sort of pull the company into this direction, what does that mean for the artists? What are the other majors doing? What, how are the indies reacting? Or, you know, all those kind of changes are pretty interesting to follow. But, you know, it's. I'm the kind of person that spots patterns, so I can't help but look.
[00:14:20] Speaker A: Okay, I love what you're saying here. Thinking about these patterns, like, going into like, like the idea of, like having a sense of, of control over one's destiny.
What you're talking about. I. It just to me is like, that is the wisest thing is like really understanding the industry you're in. What are the trends? Who are the players, what's happening? It. Most people are going to experience some kind of job change throughout their career at some point, whether it's their. It's their choice or it's the choice of an organization. And I know sometimes it can feel for people that we're out of control. Like, they're not that we're out of control, but that we have no control over what's going to happen. And there is some degree of that. Like, I mean, I can't. We can't control, like, how markets are going to necessarily operate or the decisions that are being made, like, way at the top. But what we can do is we can pay whatever a chosen industry is. Even if we kind of just fell ass backwards into that. We can always pay attention to the industry we're in. We can always be looking at what the job market's like, what are the opportunities that there are, what are the trends in the marketplace, who are the new incoming leaders? Like, that gives you way more power to make decisions. Either you can be proactive in how you're positioning yourself in the job market and how you're going into different roles and making. I love what you said earlier, like, kind of like building a network for some things or from a reactive space, like something happened that you didn't necessarily. Like, maybe it was that you didn't get a job you're going for or your department's being cut. It gives you more control And I think, like, that level of paying attention to an industry and all the things that you just said is like, unbelievably wise and it is very empowering.
[00:15:59] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. I mean, there is a downside to this because if you go too far and start sort of obsessing over it, and I've been close to that myself, it can overspill into how you're bringing yourself to work every day. Because I think it's not healthy to come to work and sort of, you know, constantly feel that the axe might be falling. Right. Sometimes you do have to think, okay, it may be, but I'm going to do everything I want to do today as though it is my last day at work.
But it can have a negative effect where you suddenly feel ruled by fear and like, oh, no, I'm going to lose my job.
You know, is there any point to this now? Oh, why am I not being listened to here? Why aren't we getting the resources? Not saying that any of these things happened in my recent one, but I can imagine those. The kind of things that you could end up spiraling about.
So I think it's. It's important to be aware, but then also give it a place and don't let it push you into a situation where you're letting the uncontrollables control your behavior. Right. So, yeah, that's. That's been tricky because there have been some moments where, let's say I've not had enough sleep, and then I have felt a bit like, I survived this quarter. Will I survive the next one? I'm tired.
[00:17:26] Speaker A: Yeah, well, can I give you, can I of an analogy that would support that, please?
So if we thinking about health, and I'm not talking about, like, standards of beauty or anything like that, I'm just talking about, like, whatever it is for someone to be healthy. So let's say someone is, like, paying a lot of attention to their health and they're, like, very diligent about their diet and exercise and all of these things. That's like, overall, like a. A good thing, you know, like, because it allows you to. To make choices about your life and how you want to manage your health and what you want to do and all of those things. But also it's like, if you become obsessive about it, if, like, every single time you've got, like, five minutes to yourself, you're like, busting out 30 squats and like, you, you're like, overtly focusing on your caloric, your caloric intake and like, all of these things, it's unhealthy and it's like an anxious space. I'm like, I'm a huge believer in really empowering yourself by paying attention to things and learning about things so you can make the right choices that put you in the right positions in life. Whether it's from like a health perspective or a career perspective or actually that kind of crossroads between the two, which is like, yeah, like if you learn a lot about your industry and you're like always looking at trends, it can spin you into like an anxiety fear space. However, if you also have a good practice of managing your mental and physical health, that should help take that edge off and create a good balance. Knowing too much about anything, of course has that element of where you might just be obsessing about it at three in the morning, like for sure. However, I think if you take like really good care of yourself, physically and mentally take good care of yourself and you know what that means for you because it is slightly different for everyone. Plus you're like highly informed on your. In your business space. I think it just brings you the highest level of competition where you're ready to compete and do your best in every situation. Knowing that like, yeah, this job could go away like today or tomorrow or a month from now. I just want to be positioned the right way.
[00:19:14] Speaker B: Yeah. And also the analogy is just spot on. And then also very simple terms as can be. It's just knowing the game, knowing the rules of the game that you're playing, including the ones that are a little more covert.
And it's your job to find out in order to understand how the game is played.
[00:19:35] Speaker A: Yeah. And you know, I love that you just said how the game is played because again, if I want to go to like a hardcore reference, we go to the unity unity 7 inch. It's like the game, it's like, yeah, life's a game that can't be won. Like it. But it's true. You got to play. Right. Okay, so listen, we're heading towards the wrap up. This has been like a super fun conversation. Before we go into the crucial three, is there anything that you want to add in? Any ideas you want to talk about? Anything you want to ask me?
[00:20:00] Speaker B: One thing I will say around something that really helped me was this. There was a little piece that came by. It was the shortest little snippet and it was the ABC method of answering questions.
[00:20:12] Speaker A: Oh yeah.
[00:20:13] Speaker B: And I realize I am still not very good at this because you've just heard all my verbose answers. But it still sticks in my head and when I'm sort of when I can be really conscious about it, I've been finding that I can use that method so easily in the work sense, in the professional environment.
And the ABC being like, you give you quick answer to a question, so it's usually yes or no and then the bridge and then the context.
So I was wondering.
Yeah. Do you have other tips? Because something that I do want to keep improving are my communication skills. So I'm wondering if there are other tips out there that I can look up and do a bit of homework and figure out.
[00:21:00] Speaker A: Totally. So could I give you. Give you one that connects to that about how and when you use it?
[00:21:06] Speaker B: Yes, please.
[00:21:07] Speaker A: All right. So there's three kinds of conversations. There's like low stakes conversational conversations, there's high value conversations, and then there's high stakes conversations. Those are three different kinds of conversations that all professionals have like all the time throughout their week. And this is, this is what the conversations are and this is how you'd use the answer pyramid. So that ABC model.
So a low stakes or what I call a conversational interaction is with people who you interact with all the time. So it's usually like your boss or your team, like people that you're like frequently speaking with. When people frequently speak with each other. So they're in a lot of communication. They usually norm to each other's communication style. So some people are ultra direct and sometimes people get feedback at the workplace that they're too direct. You know, and sometimes people are more verbose. Verbose and they kind of back their way into an answer. Well, both are relatively fine if you're interacting with the same people all the time because you kind of normed to each other's style so you know what to expect from each other. So someone who's really direct, someone who works with someone like that, is very likely to not take it personally or not find it jarring because he used to it versus someone who's really verbose. And you're kind of going to be a bit more patient there. So in a low stakes conversation where you're with people that you work with all the time, you apply the answer pyramid 20% of the time. So if you think you get asked 10 questions by someone, you only have to do it for two, two of those questions. And when I say 20%, it's that in most business conversations there's usually at least two ideas where it's super important that you're clearly understood.
But the other Ones you can explain yourself however you explain yourself. So it's like a 2080 model. 20% of the time use the answer pyramid. 80% of the time, communicate how, however you communicate because those answers are probably less important and the other person's going to be able to extract what they need out of it.
For a high value conversation, this could be with people that you work with all the time, except now you're talking about something that's super important. There's an urgency with the conversation or a specificity that's required.
However, when we think of high value conversations, it's not that they're not usually with people that you work with all the time, but more often than not it's with people that you don't work with all the time. It's with more senior level leaders or it could be client facing or it could be people from other business units. So people who we don't spend that amount of that much, that much time with, who haven't normed to our style, who we have very little time with because we don't see them all the time and it requiring us to be very specific. Or it could be with people we work with all the time, but what we're talking about has a high level of urgency in this space. It matters more that you use the answer pyramid because you're trying to give high value and your audience is trying to extract high value. They want high value and you want to deliver high value. So here you should be using a 5050 model. It's like at least 50% of the time use that answer pyramid because it matters that you're delivering that value.
And then the last one is like high stakes. And a high stakes conversation is one. And it's super easy to know you're in this. There's something to win or lose as a direct result of this conversation, I'm either going to get this job or not get it out of this interview. I'm going to get the sale or not get it out of this conversation. We're going to get funding for this project or not get it as a result of this conversation. So in a high stakes conversation you apply an 8020 model. Eight out of every 10 questions you ask, you're doing it using the answer pyramid. And the reason that I've created this, created this model is that the answer pyramid by nature as like you're saying it's really hard like most of us like to back into an answer. It's because we want to give the backstory or the context or kind of paint the landscape, however, and that's usually fine in a lot of just like low stakes conversations or normal conversations. But when someone wants high value, or if it's high stakes, it's way more important to lead with the answer and go from there. So knowing what kind of conversation you're at at any given time is the first part of that. And then the second part is like being like, hey, I'm at a high value. Boom. Five out of ten questions. I got to identify the right questions, answer them directly, and then know the other ones I can be a little bit more conversational on.
[00:25:24] Speaker B: Yeah, got it. It's quite logical when you explain it like that with the three different levels.
[00:25:29] Speaker A: Well, I love telling stories. Like I have like a chronic storyteller and I, I like, I love just what we call chopping it up. I love chopping it up with people. So my inclination is to not be direct. It's to be the opposite. But I've, I've learned so much about when to be direct and when not to be direct, when to. I do need to be a bit more gentle, so I need to have a bit more of a buffer versus when do you have to give the direct answer? It's just about the different kind of conversation.
[00:25:56] Speaker B: I really love this as well because an extra layer on top of that is I moved from the UK to the Netherlands. So if I'm sure you're familiar with the Culture Map, the book by Erin Meyer where, you know, there's this whole.
Yeah. Like the, the, the scale of direct and indirect ways of communicating. So I had to learn to be direct, like extremely blunt and to the point in order to adapt successfully to the Dutch working environment. Now that I'm back in the U.S. i'm having to, well, not unlearn that, but get into a different habit of. I don't want to offend anybody.
So do I sort of communicate how I would in Britain? Well, no, because something I've learned is apparently in the US there's something called the shit sandwich if you're delivering bad information.
Okay. Or a hamburger, I don't know.
So, you know, it's interesting because different cultures require different approaches as well. And I know, like in Germany, of course, the context I believe is really important and has to be front loaded. Yes. It's just so. I find it so fascinating, but to the point where I'm, I still feel I'm sort of refining my own verbal communication. A bit like getting used to being in a different environment given the fact I Was in the Netherlands for 20 years. So I became very direct.
[00:27:29] Speaker A: Well, and I'm, I'm such a believer in directness. And directness also, as you know, in North America has a very gendered response where it's like, if men are direct, it's often viewed as a virtue, where if women are direct, it could be viewed as like, oh, that person's pushy. And it's, it is like a real gendered response and it's a real piss off because I want everyone around me feel they can always be direct. But of course, there are many marginalized groups who've essentially been trained through their experience in North America that they'll be punished if they're direct. Maybe not they won't directly be punished, but they'll be punished through like a perception that is built around them that will hinder their career. And that's like a real thing. So it's like, I understand why you're making that adjustment. And also, North Americans don't particularly like directness. Like, come to Western Canada. Nobody wants anything direct, but it is important. But you gotta know when to do it. You got to pick your spots and be thoughtful. Can I tell you how I built the answer pyramid, by the way?
[00:28:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I'd love to know.
[00:28:26] Speaker A: It was my second tour of Europe. The band I was in at the time had just put out what would be considered our kind of like, landmark record. And everyone that I was interacting in North America because at that time I was just only doing music as a living. And everyone around me was like, oh, this record rocks. Like, oh, it's like the best thing. I'm hearing all this positive feedback and I'm like, high on the horse. I'm feeling like, amazing.
We go to Europe, our first show is in Germany and we go to the venue and the promoter comes up to me and I'm like, oh, hey, I'm Aram, nice to meet you. Like, hey, yeah, listen to your new record. And I'm like, oh, yeah, what'd you think? Expecting a North American response. And instead what I got was, it's not very good. The first or it's not very good. There's three tracks on there that are excellent. The rest feels like filler. And I was like, you have, you have mortally wounded me. And I was like, totally like. And I went to the, you know, went to the band room and everyone's like, what, what happened to you? And I was like, I can't believe what this guy just said to me. And like. And I'm kind Of like, what a mean. That was so mean. But I'm going to tell you something. I thought about that on that tour and really was like, oh, that guy was actually trying to help me. Like, that that person was a fan of the band and so much so that they went out of their way to put on a show for us. And the show was like, sick. Like, totally awesome show. That person was basically like, I think you can do better. And I think the conversation was basically like, there's three good songs, the rest is kind of filler. Like, I think you should think about it for your next record. Like, they're actually trying to help me. But I was in such a North American mindset. And also, keep in mind, I said, what do you think of the record? And it was such a. It was such an eye opener for me where it was like, you know, giving people direct. If someone's asking for feedback and you're direct with them, it could be perceived in a really negative way, but it is actually come from coming from a good place and intent to help and not be fluffy. And the different ways that's managed culture, managed culturally is really interesting, as you were saying. And I think it's. It behooves everyone to kind of like pick your spot about how you build relationships with people so you can be as direct with them as possible while also maintaining the relationship. And there's a real. There's a real art involved in that.
[00:30:43] Speaker B: Yeah, no, it's certainly requiring balance again, like everything else in life. And yeah, that is such an awesome example, intercultural communication.
But, yeah, I mean, I can imagine from his perspective, he was also like, cluing you into. Don't bother playing these songs live. Like, totally give them. Because it'll be a better show if you focus on the ones that he did. Like, you know, it's. Yeah. And intent is everything as well. Of course, you know where the message. Why he told you that in the first place or gave that response.
Yeah, I totally get it. And then if you try and have a similar conversation, like with a duchy as a Brit and you're beating about the bush and you're not being direct, they're just, oh, zone out.
[00:31:36] Speaker A: Totally.
[00:31:38] Speaker B: You didn't tell me anything that's not useful.
Stop saying I'm great. Give me some substance.
[00:31:44] Speaker A: 100%. All right, you ready for the crucial three?
[00:31:48] Speaker B: Yes, I think so.
[00:31:49] Speaker A: All right, so for the audience who doesn't know the crucial three is I'm going to ask three questions that scale in difficulty and we'll end with the toughest one. You ready to go?
[00:31:59] Speaker B: I'm ready.
[00:32:00] Speaker A: Okay. So the music industry is, like, it's so interesting because, like, where it is now, who could ever have guessed that something like Spotify would exist? Like, when we were kids and we were young coming up, and it changed like crazy radically in a very, very short amount of time, there were some people who saw kind of like around the corner or around three corners, But I think for a lot of people, they're like, what is this new world? So with all of your experience and, like, the attention that you pay to the market, what's your guess on where the music industry is going within the next 20 years?
[00:32:37] Speaker B: More and more power to the independent companies and the artists themselves. We've already seen the democratization of the business when it comes to distribution, and that happened, as you say, with platforms such as Spotify. So we're talking around 2008, but ever since then, we've been inching further and further towards individual artists having more power. And when I say power, it's in terms of how they are able to communicate with and engage with their fans and the, you know, the communities that they create online around the world. So I think that is the trend that we'll see. Of course, it'd be remiss of me, not to mention AI Things are still very.
We're really in the wild west currently in the music business with AI, with, you know, the discussions that are happening with governments in terms of at least legislation and how to prevent AI being used for, you know, not good. And, you know, I think there is a risk there, obviously for all. All songwriters around the world, but it's sort of like, how far will we go? I cannot see around that corner. I just hope that a lot of these artists are protected from the effects of it and that, you know, the AI is not something to be feared, per se, but will actually enhance some of the nuts and bolts of the business. But, you know, not the art, the human will still be important. We're not going to replicate real intimacy or humanity or, you know, human artistic creations so on. That remains to be seen. Wish I had the answer, but for now, I'm trying not to be too fearful of AI ruining too much of what we enjoy about the medium of music.
[00:34:39] Speaker A: That's a good one. That's a real. That was a really good answer. All right, second question for you. Based on what you just said and the volatility of the music industry and, like, how it's, like, rapidly changing and different, why would anyone Coming out of college or just starting their professional career. Why would anyone choose music as a career?
[00:35:01] Speaker B: Because they are passionate about music and the effect that it's had on them personally, to the point of them wanting to really make a mission out of bringing amazing music to people who will also, you know, have a similar emotional response to the art form. I think you, nine times out of 10, and you've probably experienced this with all of the people that you have spoken with in the music business.
We do it because we love it. The passion is really important.
There's just something in the DNA of the music people at these companies where it's. It. I think it's the same as if you ask anyone why they would get into the, you know, the art side of the industry, like fine art or anything similar.
There will always be people that are sort of wanting to skim the cream off the crop with maybe trading rare pieces of art to make a book.
But at the core of the industry, you'll find those passionate people that feel that it speaks to them on such a strong level that it's something they just can't shake even if they try other industries. They're like, well, it's my passion. It keeps pulling me back.
[00:36:22] Speaker A: Okay, I love that. Great answer. Okay, this one is the hardest of all of them. So there was a photo book that came out in the 90s called the unheard Music, and I think it was by someone named Chrissy Piper. I can't quite remember that part of it, but Aaron Kamabas did this intro talking about how he had this box of demo tapes from bands that he collected over the years through his tours of these bands that never, never had a record. Nobody remembers. But he kept these demos. They were the best demos. And he was like, nobody remembers these. Like, there's like 100 of these demos. This is the Unheard music. These are like the best bands that nobody has ever heard of. So what are three bands that you have come across in your travels where you're like, this band never got its due, but this is the best band.
[00:37:13] Speaker B: Oh, my word. Okay, first one, off the top of my head, they sort of did get the do because they were members of Bane, and that was this band Silent Drive, that existed for a hot minute. They put out an album around 2004,ish, off the top of my head. And when that came out, I was label manager for Revelation at the time. So I got all those releases ahead. It was unequal vision, I remember. So I listened to everything that came my way, and that One I was just immediately hooked and played it to death. I will still play that record today and it still feels. It evokes the same feelings as when I first heard it. The production is amazing. It was just incredible.
Glad to see that they did some reunion shows. I even flew from the UK to. To CBGB to see them because they. They were bain years ago. 2005 I think. So that was one. And although they were Bain associated, they. Yeah, they're still not sort of as well known, if you mention it, to at least you know, in Europe or whatever.
So that was one.
I'm going to jump over to a band I saw at the weekend who a lot of my friends already know, but they are very tapped in and that is. It's the most ridiculous band name. They're called Yambag and they're from Cleveland and they were the kind of brand of hardcore punk where you were just standing there in awe.
I know this is antithesis to punk, but the musicianship, the drummer specifically, it was just crazy. I saw them in Philadelphia on Saturday night, bought the record. Record's brilliant as well. All the songs are really important for 2025. Lots of political, social. Well, socio. Political commentary. Just like, oh, the shock that you need. Like you don't need the coffee in the morning. It's just. Yeah, just so good. So Yambag, crazy name, crazy, amazing band.
[00:39:25] Speaker A: Sorry to interrupt for one second. I know this is good because Mike, our engineer, as soon as you said it, started pumping his fist up and down in the air when he said, yeah, bag. And then when you said the musicianship, he started playing air guitar. So I could tell this is good.
[00:39:42] Speaker B: Well, eardrums, please. See how you go, oh, he's going down. Yeah. And then, I mean, oh, there are countless. Honestly, I don't know how far back to dig into my mind. So. So I think I'm gonna have to default to a current one again.
And that's this duo from New York called Strawman army who have such a. Such a cool, unique sound. They're, you know, they're from the DIY scene.
The music is. It's not like in your face, raging hardcore punk by any means, but you know, the, the way if you listen to their, their records, you can't believe it's just a duo and really quite atmospheric but still up tempo as well. Not raging, but up tempo. I don't remember what label they're on or if it's self released or what, but yeah, Strawman army, yeah, they're. They're My. That's what's at the top of my brain at the moment.
[00:40:40] Speaker A: Heck, yeah.
[00:40:41] Speaker B: Awesome.
[00:40:41] Speaker A: Well, listen, this was super fun. Anything you want to add in before we close off?
[00:40:46] Speaker B: No, I think I'm good. Thank you around for listening to me ramble on something I'm working on. It's been an absolute pleasure to sit with you and. And chat. Yeah, it's just been really fun to take this moment, as I say, and reflect on the crazy few months I've just had and look back and. Yeah, it's just been a really, really good moment for me to do this. So thank you.
[00:41:12] Speaker A: Oh, thank you. This was super fun and also, like, huge kudos. Like, you know, I've been in the position before where I was suddenly without a job, and, like, that was the scariest. It wasn't the scariest moment of my life, but it was right up there where I was like, oh, my God, what am I gonna do? And it led me to, like, the greatest. The greatest thing ever. So I. I loved what you said about, like, just finding that silver lining as you can, because, like, yeah, it sounds kind of corny, but actually, no, like, it. It. It is a thing. And most people are going to have some kind of experience with that. And I really loved how you talked about all those things, like prepping for it, thinking ahead, like, being. Being ready there. This was such a really, like, fun and open conversation. So thanks so much, everybody. I hope you got as much out of it as I did. And we will see you next time on One Step Beyond One Step.
One step.
What's that beyond.
