Karrie Arthurs, Founder of Blackbird Electric Tattoo

[00:00:00] Speaker A: I don't think it has to be a bad thing either. People are like, oh, make sure you take a break and take a step back. It's like, well, maybe my mental health thing is being in it, you know, all the time. Yeah, maybe I'm okay with that. And maybe that's okay. [00:00:11] Speaker B: That was a clip from today's guest, everybody. I am super psyched on this one. There's nothing I like more than talking to someone who is a business owner who kind of built their own path, did their own thing, but is also really dedicated to using their platform and their industry to create change. And change could be like a huge change, and it also could be, like, local, as long as it's meaningful and it changes people's lives. And this is such a conversation that represents that. Plus, just someone who's cool has got a cool history. But before we get to it, please rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast. Especially subscribe. It's a huge help. My name is Aram Arslanian, and this is one step beyond Carrie. Welcome to the show. [00:01:14] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:01:15] Speaker B: All right, so for the uninitiated, for those who don't know, who are you and what do you do? [00:01:19] Speaker A: My name is Carrie Gary Arthers, and I am a professional tattooer. Yeah. [00:01:25] Speaker B: Okay, so tattooing, obviously I'm a fan. Obviously you're a fan. [00:01:30] Speaker A: I'm a fan. [00:01:32] Speaker B: If we think about it. Let's just start from the business perspective. When did you start getting involved in not just the enjoying tattoos, but actually getting into the business side of the tattoo industry? [00:01:43] Speaker A: I think we've always been in the business side of the tattoo industry because it's like, as a tattooer, you're always like, you're always self employed from the beginning, right? But I started owning a shop in 2007. Yeah. [00:01:57] Speaker B: When did you start making your primary living off of tattooing? [00:02:00] Speaker A: I started tattooing in 2000. And then primary living, like, not having a secondary job would have been. Man. Yeah, I'd say 2003, maybe 2002, maybe even sooner. But yeah, I was like, I would do anything. I was just working at gas station or whatever in the morning, and then I would go to the shop for noon. So long days. [00:02:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:22] Speaker A: But, yeah, I didn't have a, like, there was no career. It was art school tattooing. That's it. [00:02:27] Speaker B: So when you went to art school, did you plan on going into tattooing or did you just kind of find it? [00:02:31] Speaker A: I wanted to quit, like, my first year. I was like, I could be learning how to tattoo and making money, but my parents encouraged me to stay, and I had some profs that encouraged me to stay, so went through? Yeah. [00:02:42] Speaker B: And any regrets on that or were you happy? [00:02:44] Speaker A: No, I liked it. I mean, it's not like you go to art school and you're gonna get well, depending on what you do. But the majority of students there, especially in the fine art division, we're not getting jobs after. So you're paying for an experience, a learning experience, and you have to kind of be okay with that, I think. But maybe because I had a different angle, it was easier for me. But, yeah, I liked it. It was good. [00:03:06] Speaker B: So when did you first, like, when was your first, like, real, like, any kind of meaningful interaction with tattoo culture? Like, when did you become, like, even aware of tattoos, really? [00:03:16] Speaker A: When I was 16, maybe even younger, I could have been like, 1415 probably. I went into a tattoo shop with my cousin in Edmonton, and she was getting a tattoo touched up or was going in for some photos. I remember she had, like, a big butterfly on her ankle. Anyway, went in with her and I was like, ooh, this place is so cool. It was this, like, very, very old school kind of biker shop, you know, scary dudes tattooing with big beards and everything. And I loved it. And then one of the shop guys was like. He was like, if no one claims you in 30 days, can I keep you? And I was like, oh, now I want to leave. Time to go. But it was like, that was the experience. I was like, the people are cool for the most part, and the place was cool, and I liked the vibe. Yeah. [00:04:06] Speaker B: So that was the start. [00:04:08] Speaker A: That was the start, yeah. [00:04:08] Speaker B: And then what happened? [00:04:09] Speaker A: And then I remember I got tattooed at 16. [00:04:12] Speaker B: Like, tattooed where? Like, at a shop. Someone's house? [00:04:14] Speaker A: Yeah. No, at a shop, yeah. [00:04:16] Speaker B: How did that happen? [00:04:16] Speaker A: My dad went in and, like, signed for me and got deposit down. I think that still some people do that, like, tattoo underage. I don't, but definitely they do, so, yeah. And then I got tattooed and then, yeah, I graduated high school and then went to art school, and then I came back to the guy who owned the shop. I'm pretty sure he was the one that tattooed me when I was 16, and he taught me how to tattoo. [00:04:44] Speaker B: So grew up in Edmonton? [00:04:47] Speaker A: No, I was only born there, and then my parents moved to Calgary, so I lived here until about 7th grade, and then we moved back to a small town outside of Edmonton, and I lived there until I went to art school here. [00:05:03] Speaker B: So it was in that small town when you got introduced into tattooing? Yeah, but then when you came to school in Calgary. [00:05:09] Speaker A: Yes. [00:05:10] Speaker B: So when you were going to school and you're like, oh my gosh, I want to go tattoo, but I'm going to stick it out and do it. Were you getting more and more into tattoo culture? Like, did you take on an apprenticeship or anything like that? [00:05:20] Speaker A: No, no, not until I was done. Art school, it was so all consuming. School too. And like the pressure to produce work in a timely fashion and stuff, it's like I couldn't do this one and that one. I had to just focus on my art. [00:05:33] Speaker B: So like sole focus on that and then the big shift into tattooing. [00:05:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:36] Speaker B: What can you tell us about your art? Because I know you're still active as an artist as well. [00:05:40] Speaker A: Right. It's crossbridge for me. So, like, tattooing mirrors my art and my art mirrors tattooing now. But yeah, it's a separate practice. I think there's, as I get older, there's more pressure for me because it's like I'm so creative in my tattoo job that when I do my art stuff, which is, you know, a different. Still being creative, but it's like I feel like I've put all my effort into this and it's hard for me to go to that now. It's like I don't have enough anymore. [00:06:06] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So do you still do shows and those kinds of things? [00:06:11] Speaker A: I try. I haven't done a show in a while because I'm like concentrating on a body of work. I says my last solo show was 2016 at the Christine Clausen gallery here in Calgary. And they rep me. They're great people. They. So, yeah, had that show and then working on a body of work and then the pandemic hit and that was just a big fuck up. And, like, creatively especially. So it's like just trying to, like, roll the ball and recover from that and get back into like, group shows and stuff like that would be great too. [00:06:41] Speaker B: So you finish school? [00:06:42] Speaker A: Yes. [00:06:42] Speaker B: And then you go head first into tattooing? [00:06:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:45] Speaker B: So I know a lot of people start with an apprenticeship and that sounds like that's what it was for you. [00:06:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:49] Speaker B: So how did you find an apprenticeship and how was it? [00:06:52] Speaker A: I did a lot of, like, research. I tried to stay in Calgary because that's where I was. Right. But I was like, oh, no hiring, no whatever. So I was like, fuck, I could go back to this person I know in Edmonton, but then we had to uproot and move. Right. I was with my ex husband at the time we lived here, so, yes, called him. He was like, sure, get up here. So the process went, and then I showed up there. The apprenticeship itself. Rough. It was rough. I was the only female in the shop at the time. My mentor wasn't. I mean, to be frank, he's a pretty abusive guy. So it was like going through that every day while trying to learn to tattoo. It was a lot of pressure, and it was a lot of work. I was there for four years. Yeah. [00:07:37] Speaker B: Do you want to unpack that anymore, or do you want to leave it there? [00:07:39] Speaker A: No, we can talk about it. [00:07:41] Speaker B: Sure. [00:07:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:42] Speaker B: Because that is a burden. Like, trying to go in and learn a craft and learn a profession while also having to manage someone's behavior. So, like, was it, like, negative, like, cultural negativity, like, workspace cultural negativity? Was it based on gender? Like, what was going on there specifically? [00:08:00] Speaker A: I think all of it heavily based in gender, too, but also just that. I think that my mentor was very insecure, and he was kind of that old school train of thought where it was like, if I teach you, then you have my secrets. Then you're going to take what you know and you're going to go open a shop down there, and then you're going to be taking my money away from me. Right. I don't think like that. But that's how he thought. And I think that there was also pressure on everyone else in that shop who worked there, too. And then it was, like, long hours. I never got paid the amount that the other guys in the shop paid, and I was. I was told flat out is because I was. I was a woman, I would only make this much amount of money, even though my counterparts were making, you know, 10% more or whatever. [00:08:47] Speaker B: What was it? Was it just literally the justification was a woman? [00:08:51] Speaker A: Yeah, that was it. [00:08:54] Speaker B: That's, like, well, first, like, thank you for the honesty. Like, you know, like, I mean, that's. As a guy, I haven't had to experience those things. So it's like, my shock at that is, like, it's a pretty gendered thing, because it's like, I think probably many women, especially women in part of industries that were at that time kind of rooted in subculture, have probably experienced a lot of similar things, but my mind is blown by that. [00:09:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:26] Speaker B: So do you mind if we just, like, hit on apprenticeships in general? [00:09:31] Speaker A: Sure. Yeah. I don't mind anything when we talk. [00:09:33] Speaker B: When I talk to people from the tattoo industry, not always, but, like, I'd say, like, pretty frequently, people talk about how rough apprenticeships are and how, like, when they've gone into owning shops or becoming, like, professionally, like they're professional tattoo artists, that they've got a big focus on changing apprenticeships. Was there like, is there a big wave of change in how apprenticeships go now? Or is it still kind of old school, or is there a bit of a mix of both? [00:10:03] Speaker A: I think it's a mix of both. I think that it definitely. There's a large percentage of it that has changed, which is good. There's kind of a new population of tattooers that have been tattooing in the last 510 years that approach it differently. Old school stuff is like, you have to be humiliated. You have to feel small, you have to do a bunch of work outside of tattooing to prove yourself. Or now I think it's much more supportive and empathetic and you're just, you're teaching somebody something and that should be just basically it. [00:10:35] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a weird thing because, like, you know, a lot of industries will mimic kind of like weird social stuff where it's like, oh, like when you come in, we're basically gonna like, haze you or break you down or whatever, but at the same time it's like how you're also trying to make a living. So it's got that extra power position that's involved with it. It's super toxic and totally insane. [00:10:57] Speaker A: Of course it is. And, like, what good. What good comes from that? [00:10:59] Speaker B: Totally. [00:11:00] Speaker A: Right? There's. There's no benefit in treating somebody like that, that at all. [00:11:03] Speaker B: Do you mind if I chair something from my professional past? [00:11:05] Speaker A: Please. [00:11:06] Speaker B: I worked at this place. It was a company I worked at before I started my own thing. So I was like an adult. Like an adult adult. I'd had a career for a long time and I went into a different industry. And the owner was the son of the founder and had grown up in this company and had never in his entire life had a job anywhere else. Never worked at, like, 711 or something, you know what I mean? So zero other job experience. And was in this company and raised up in this company and then eventually bought the company. This was just the stupidest person I've ever worked for. And we had hired someone who was a lawyer and, like a very successful lawyer to come work at the company. It was like their next career, basically. And they were having a lot of problems kind of acclimating to this guy's style. And he said to me one day, he was like, yeah, you know, I'm just going to keep applying the pressure. Applying the pressure. I was like, I don't think you should. I don't think it's a good idea. And he said to me, well, you know my style. I like to break people down and then build them back by my image. Okay, so he's talking about a really successful lawyer who's already had this totally awesome career, who's, like, blessing us with their presence to come work at this company. And this idiot is, like, thinks he's at a position and was, like, being super, like, wild to this person. Real. Just, like, classic shitty boss. And there's this moment of silence when he said it where he thought I was going to be like, bravo. And I was like, dude, can I tell you what my experience was? He was like, well, yeah. I was like. I was a therapist for ten years before I worked here. I have, like, a quite significant, like, background education, all this. And you acted, like, so horribly to me, and I didn't. You didn't rebuild me in my image. I just learned how to, like, navigate you. [00:13:00] Speaker A: Yep. [00:13:00] Speaker B: And he's like, yeah, that. That's what I want this to say. I ended up getting fired, as most people in that tenure of that company did. [00:13:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:11] Speaker B: But, like, I don't think it's so. It's not like, per. Like, in any industry, I think a lot of people experience a version of this. It's interesting, though, in, like, subculture stuff, like, let's say, like, you know, tattoo industry or whatever, where it's, like, those smaller cultures that are supposed to, like, kind of look out for each other can kind of be the most toxic. [00:13:28] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. [00:13:30] Speaker B: So how did you get through it? [00:13:34] Speaker A: Marijuana. [00:13:37] Speaker B: You smoked your way through? [00:13:39] Speaker A: I smoked my way through, yeah. I just. I stuck to my guns and. Yeah, like you said, learn to navigate. You know what I mean? Like, I knew what. What set him off, what pissed him off, and then I knew how to just put my head down and work really hard. I just did what he said, and then I tried my best to navigate that line between, how much can I get away with and stand up for myself? And am I gonna get that box of pencil crayons thrown on my head later? Yeah, he threw some pencil crayons at me. Yeah. [00:14:10] Speaker B: Which is like, water, I think. [00:14:12] Speaker A: A glass of water, too. [00:14:15] Speaker B: I know. Like, I'm reacting. It's like, holy shit. Because, again, I came up in, like, social services where that wouldn't happen. But I think your story is, like, not an uncommon story, right? [00:14:25] Speaker A: Of course not. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think it's uncommon at all. And I especially think that, like, just because of the timing of when I started tattooing, that kind of, those kind of people in tattooing were still really prevalent, kind of saturated the market still. But now I think it's changed a bit. [00:14:42] Speaker B: And what year was this? [00:14:45] Speaker A: That was 2000 to 2004, so. [00:14:48] Speaker B: And, of course, correct me if I'm wrong, or that seems kind of like the nexus when tattooing was almost about to become, like, a little bit more mainstream. [00:14:56] Speaker A: Yeah, I think so, yeah, I think you're right. Because then it's like people. People started using the Internet and all that stuff and whatever back then, so, yeah, push it out more. [00:15:05] Speaker B: So how long did the apprenticeship last? [00:15:09] Speaker A: Technically, it was eight months from the start of learning to. You're doing tattoos today, like, three tattoos by yourself. [00:15:18] Speaker B: But you say tattoo. [00:15:19] Speaker A: Oh, my God. Well, because, like, it should have gone on way longer. And that's just when I was thrown into tattooing, I guess you could say. Maybe it went on, like, for a year at least, but, yeah. [00:15:30] Speaker B: And then you start tattooing yourself. Did you stay at that shop or did you go out on your own? [00:15:34] Speaker A: No, I stayed at that shop, yeah, for four years and then I moved down here. [00:15:37] Speaker B: You moved down here? And did you join another shop or. [00:15:40] Speaker A: Yep. Yeah, I worked at Heather McLean's shop. It was called Hide and Seek. [00:15:45] Speaker B: What was that like? Is that like a different experience? [00:15:47] Speaker A: Completely different. It was great, yeah. [00:15:52] Speaker B: So when you started again, and please correct me if I'm wrong here, at that, at the time that you started, women were still very underrepresented in tattooing. Is that correct? [00:16:04] Speaker A: Absolutely, yeah. I mean, there was, like, a lot of women tattooing. I just think that it was definitely less than today and no one really gave a shit. You know what I mean? It was like the people that wanted to get tattooed by women were just like, people in the shop who were like, oh, well, she's available, I guess, or it was like the other side of the coin was the people who were like, oh, I just want to get tattooed by girls and then just make it creepy. [00:16:29] Speaker B: Right. [00:16:30] Speaker A: So, yeah, big underrepresentation. No one cared unless you were drastically different or worked harder or pushed the envelope differently. No one really gave a shit. [00:16:40] Speaker B: Like, nobody cared to get tattooed by women or nobody minded getting tattooed by. [00:16:44] Speaker A: A woman, I guess nobody cared. And, like, other tattooers in that aspect, nobody gave a shit. Right. It was like, these guys were important to get tattooed by and as their peers in tattooing, but the women were like, whatever. [00:16:57] Speaker B: So what led to starting your own. [00:16:59] Speaker A: Shop, having a baby, trying to get back to work, it was like, how do I navigate being a mom? And my husband at the time, not home, he was a contract welder, so he was gone all the time. So I was like, how can I also tattoo? Well, kind of being a single parent, and the easiest way for me was to open a shop and then just work my own hours. I could take her there with me if I had to. If I was stuffed for childcare, it was just like, it was necessity to open a shop. Even though I had job offers, I was like, I can't come in here for 3 hours a day and then have to go home. And. You know what I mean? Like, I didn't want to burden anyone. [00:17:40] Speaker B: It's an interesting dynamic, starting your own business at the same time of having a brand new baby and effectively being a single parent. So a lot of people, for a lot of people were just one of those things would be tough. So you've got all three of them. [00:17:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:56] Speaker B: How did you pull it up? [00:17:57] Speaker A: I don't know. I just did. I mean, I just had to. You know what I mean? [00:18:03] Speaker B: Now, was it just you at first, or was it you and then you had a crew right away? [00:18:07] Speaker A: It was me at first. I'm not gonna remember how long. Maybe like seven months or so, which I was fine with. And then, yeah, a couple people came in for sure. Yeah. And then eventually at that first space, I had maybe three pretty regular people. You have to cycle through a couple and be like, no, it's gotta go. You learned. [00:18:30] Speaker B: Sorry about it. Tell me about it. So I know. And you mentioned this earlier, in this industry, there is a little bit of, like, well, if I bring someone in, teach them all my secrets, then they become my competition. So when you made that shift into starting your own place, how was that received by the person that you were working for at that time? [00:18:50] Speaker A: I was off. Right. Cause I had my daughter, so I hadn't been tattooing for, like, man, a year or so. So there wasn't. I didn't really have any ties to the shop anymore. But she would have been fine with it, of course. [00:19:02] Speaker B: Yeah. So. Totally. But it was no big deal. [00:19:04] Speaker A: No, no, no. [00:19:05] Speaker B: So at what point did you start learning, like you said, being a tattoo artist? Like, you're a business person right away. Cause you're essentially like a solo contractor who, like, you'll work in someone's shop, but you're still doing your thing, but at what point do you feel. And it could be anywhere along there. Did you really start to learn about how to run a business? [00:19:24] Speaker A: I don't know. I think maybe just watching the people that I only. I worked for, the guy who taught me, my mentor, and then I worked for Heather. So it's like watching them, those two styles, I was like, I would always critique how it was going and be like, oh, I definitely wouldn't do that. And that I would change. And then also being in the shop as a tattooer and then having somebody like your boss be there, that kind of gave me the perspective of how they felt. And, you know, them being my friends and the shop owner was my friends, and I could be on both sides of the fence there. So it was just, like, just a learning process, I think. Yeah. [00:20:04] Speaker B: What's different about you as being an artist who works for someone else versus you being a shop owner? [00:20:11] Speaker A: Yeah. So not only dealing with my own needs, but the needs of people who are working in the same space as me. Right. Their comfort and having the equipment that they need to do their job. Just balancing everybody is different when you're working for someone. It's like, I'm worried about me and my client and then maybe my coworkers and stuff, but you can come and go that kind of. You know what I mean? It's like you have more distance there, but when you own the space, it's like you're always there, even in your mind. Right. [00:20:43] Speaker B: I don't know if you've ever experienced this, but I came up in my career working for other people, right. And was always, like, hypercritical and was definitely, like, the total loudmouth. Like, I was always like, oh, it should be like this. You should do it like that. And then when I became a business owner, I was like, I'm gonna do things the way that I think they should be done. And there's a lot of things that I was like, yep, that was the way it should be done. I feel good about it, but there's so many things where I was like, that's why this person was doing it. That's why. And, like, I had this, like. Like, I guess, like, you know, retroactive embarrassment for myself of being like. And I just thought there were so many things that should be done a different way, and I didn't know because I wasn't the owner of the place or the leader at the time. Did you ever have any experiences like that once you started owning a business? [00:21:33] Speaker A: There's a lot of mistakes that you make, right. And then you learn from those mistakes. Yeah, definitely. I'm sure I've been more on the emotional side of things. When people wanted to leave or wanted to are quitting or. You know what I mean? There's like, how do I separate owning a business from being emotionally involved in it as well? Right. Like, nothing is personal here. We're all friends, but it's all just business at the end of the day. [00:21:57] Speaker B: Tough balance, though. [00:21:59] Speaker A: Yeah, of course. [00:22:00] Speaker B: You know, when people say that, it's like, oh, it's not personal, it's business. [00:22:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:04] Speaker B: I always encourage people to be like, it's personal, and it's business. [00:22:07] Speaker A: True. [00:22:08] Speaker B: And you want to honor both. [00:22:10] Speaker A: Yeah, of course. [00:22:11] Speaker B: With that, though, how do you. Again, when you work for someone's shop and the shop gets criticism or people within the shop are criticizing the owner, it's like you can just feel like, oh, I'm here. But when the tables are turned, like, have you. How have you managed any criticism, whether it's externally from others outside of the shop, or people internally? Like, how have you learned how to manage that and deal with that? [00:22:33] Speaker A: I just think that you have to take everything with a grain of salt, and if you have an open door policy, and. You know what I mean? If somebody has to talk about something or criticize the way that things are done, completely, fine, I'm open to change. Like, I'm not rigid on anything. So somebody's like, hey, I need to do this. Or my. For these clients or whatever. I'm. I'm very open. Yeah. I think that we all have to be flexible. [00:23:00] Speaker B: Yeah. Is there anything that. And going to whatever level of comfort you have on this, is there any feedback that you've gotten that you're like, huh? And then you actually went and changed. [00:23:10] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. Even just small things, too. Like, oh, man, Sebastian was talking about, which I never. It never even occurred to me. Like, medical gowns, like, the ones that you wear when you go get a procedure done, they're like the paper ones. Right. But we do a lot of stuff on women on their sternum and stuff, and it's like. Or even your back, like, for a back piece and turning it around, like, why wouldn't we have medical gowns in just something so simple? Yeah. I was like, totally. That's a great idea. And then I went and got them. But even just the small things. Right. [00:23:40] Speaker B: Speaking of, Sebastian and you and I were talking about this before we started recording. Your response to our request for you to be on the show was totally unique. We've never had anyone do that before. Do you mind if I share it. [00:23:53] Speaker A: No. [00:23:54] Speaker B: So, like, when we asked you to be on the show, you're like, yeah, like, I'm into that. But I interviewed a lot. Why don't you. Why don't you interview these people that I can tell you about that are newer in their careers or younger in their careers who come from maybe groups who are a little underrepresented in tattooing? Why don't we give them the spotlight and then we'll talk later? And we ended up having these great people to be on the show. And at the time, I was laughing. I was like, why am I so surprised by this? We've never had anyone do that. And of course, we're always grateful when people want to be on the show. But usually people are like, heck, yeah. Like, I want to come on and talk. I've never had someone be like, yes, but let's do this first just so we can make sure other people get the voice. What was important about that for you? [00:24:42] Speaker A: Like you said, other people get their voice. I think there's a lot of underrepresented people in tattooing and those subcultures within. And I think that at some point, you have to be like, maybe you've heard this story. You know, I don't. Sometimes I feel like I don't have anything new to say, and I think that they have a lot to say. So, yeah, that's important to me. [00:25:02] Speaker B: Well, for sure. And it's a little bit, like, in the role that I have, like, the kind of work that I do, but also doing the podcast, a lot of people talk about wanting things to be different and how things need to change, and a lot of people do a lot of cool things, but that was one of the most. Just practical, like, oh, I think this should be different, so I'm going to make it different. And that's why it stood out to me, because it was just, like, small, direct actions and how they can change things, like, pretty significantly over time. [00:25:32] Speaker A: True. Yep. [00:25:33] Speaker B: So speaking of change, I know that when you began in the tattoo industry, it was, like, quite a bit different. And I don't just mean, like, it could be, like, on any level. What are some of the important changes that you think have been taking place in the industry and what's been leading to them changing? [00:25:48] Speaker A: I think definitely there's a lot more intolerance in the industry right now. I think the me too movement kind of swept through it during the pandemic there in 2020 and 21 pretty hard, and I think that that was a change that needed to happen. I think there's a lot more work that needs to be done, but, yeah, more accountability and then people being more aware of other tattooers and their intentions and stuff. [00:26:16] Speaker B: Yeah, there was, like, a huge wave during the pandemic. [00:26:20] Speaker A: Yeah. Good. Yeah. [00:26:22] Speaker B: I mean, it's just interesting because it. It was after what was like, the kind of like, I guess we'd say, like, the mainstream wave of it. It came afterwards. Is there, like, what are your thoughts on that? Why was it kind of like, I guess, like, the termites is delayed? [00:26:39] Speaker A: Because I don't think that anyone wants to fucking rock that boat here. I think that everyone is. We're just sailing down the stream of. It's like we're. Everyone's just so quiet about it. I don't know. We're all in this together on this boat, and no one wants to be the one to rock it a bit or to tip it. Everyone's just like, culpable. We're all culpable. That's what's happening. [00:27:03] Speaker B: So what happened, though, when it started to shake, people reacted, though, right? [00:27:07] Speaker A: Oh, hard. Yeah. Big, big time. Yeah. [00:27:10] Speaker B: What other shakes need to happen? [00:27:12] Speaker A: I think that we're in a state now where we've had this big upset, and now we're kind of like, oh, let's go back to almost how it was. We'll still be, like, talking about it and having. Teaching about it, and people are doing workshops and stuff, which is great, but I still think that there's a real collective amnesia where people are like, oh, call this person out, or Sammy did, and now let's just not worry about it. And he'll just tattoo at the shop and no one will say anything. You know what I mean? It's like it went really high, and then now it's kind of plateaued. People don't care anymore. I don't know what the problem is. [00:27:52] Speaker B: So what should happen? [00:27:53] Speaker A: It's tough to say what should happen, because I think that deep down, it's like if someone being. I don't want to say victim, so let's say survivor. Someone being a survivor of abuse from someone who tattoos, it should has occurred in tattooing. They should be the ones that are like, okay, now we need to talk about it, and then opens up floodgates for everybody speaking up about it. But I think until that happens, and you can't push people to do that. Right. It's hard to finger point, I think, unless you have your own experience. I don't know. Everyone has to tiptoe for some reason, which is weird. [00:28:33] Speaker B: You'd mentioned there's, like, you'd said, you know, we're doing some workshops. Things are happening. So, like, how has the industry risen to the challenge? What are the different things that are out there to at least educate people or keep that change going? [00:28:46] Speaker A: I think that a lot of people have done educational work in trying to inform clients of what's expected when you come and what should be expected as a person getting tattoos. And I think it's informative work for how people should behave in the workplace and how they should be interacting with the people they work with and also their clients. I think that people need more education on that. [00:29:11] Speaker B: Yeah, education. So just speaking, like, I work in the corporate sector. [00:29:16] Speaker A: Right. [00:29:17] Speaker B: And one of the things that there's been a lot of talk about is how Dei initiatives are losing funding, and there's kind of like a, what was a quiet backlash towards them to, like, an increasingly vocal backlash towards them where there was that kind of, like you said, there was this, like, big spike of action and interest and conversation is gone down. And I wouldn't say it's even plateaued. It's kind of. It's. It's going slow down. Yeah, it kind of, like, slowly downhill. And when I talk to people about it, I think there's more of a sense of, like, yeah, but I don't want to be that person. Like, I want change, but I don't want to be that person who's, like, basically, like, the annoying person in the room who keeps talking about that everyone just stops listening to. So, like, I don't. [00:30:05] Speaker A: That's me. I feel like that. [00:30:08] Speaker B: Right? So, like, I have. I have ideas to what's to be done, but, like, any, like what? Any other thoughts that you have? Like, how do we push past that? Oh, you're the annoying person who can't let it go. Like, how do we keep it from going down? Because everything, it's very hard to keep everything at high intensity all the time. But how do we keep it from, like, slowly going downhill or even sharply going downhill? [00:30:28] Speaker A: I don't know. I guess to get more people to be the annoying person with you. I'm not sure that's how I think everything is portrayed. It's like they have the one scapegoat person for the whole idea behind it, and then they're like, oh, don't like this guy anymore. Quiet. You know what I mean? But I think if you look at everything, it's like that. [00:30:46] Speaker B: Every big movement, totally, 100%. And why? I think the Internet is so great for being able to bring people together to talk about things. And then also why the Internet sucks so bad. [00:30:58] Speaker A: Both. [00:30:59] Speaker B: Totally. Well, that's like bringing it back to your shop. One of the things that I, so when companies talk to me about this, and it's not like lots of companies are like, oh my gosh, aram, help us, like, stem this thing because my background and expertise is not de and I, that's not, I'm always very cautious to play in that playground because it's like, it's so easy to do a bad job with stuff like that. And like, once you do a bad job, you give people 8000 excuses to not keep that work going. But when people do consult with me about it, one of the things I'd say is like, well, why don't you just build your business differently? Like, build different kinds of businesses? So rather than like, rather than having these differently named training programs every six months, why don't you just like, fundamentally change how you hire, train, and like build up your workforce and over time it should course correct. So it's like, not like just like train your way out of it, but like fundamentally rebuild your business. And that's like something that around your shop, I feel is like, well, yeah, that's that in practice, why don't you just like, build like a different kind of shop? And that kind of thing catches fire and goes, and then people kind of have a choice, right? It's like people are like, I want to stick with this kind of old school thing. That's what I identify with, or I want to follow something new, which makes me super interested about your shop because it operates in a pretty interesting way. [00:32:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:32:18] Speaker B: Any thoughts on anything I just said? There anything you want to add in? [00:32:21] Speaker A: Not really. I want to know how you think it operates in an interesting way. [00:32:25] Speaker B: One of the things I think is super cool is you're not a front desk. You just like walk into a bar. Oh, yeah. [00:32:29] Speaker A: I've never had a front desk. Yeah. [00:32:31] Speaker B: And to anyone who's not into tattoo culture, like, the front desk is like the front desk. [00:32:36] Speaker A: It's like, I guess. [00:32:37] Speaker B: But isn't it? Do you see a lot of shops without a front desk? [00:32:41] Speaker A: Not really, no. [00:32:42] Speaker B: So what happens when they want people walking to your shop? [00:32:44] Speaker A: Yeah, they just stand there until one of us looks up and says, hey, what's up? [00:32:50] Speaker B: Then what happens? [00:32:51] Speaker A: Well, we talk to them usually. I think the majority of stuff is done over email and social media correspondence now, but yeah, they'll come in and then we'll just if somebody is usually not doing something upstairs, we'll just call them and they'll come down and talk to the person who's there, or I'll tell them to come over to my station if I'm there alone. [00:33:10] Speaker B: Right. [00:33:11] Speaker A: I just didn't hear them. [00:33:13] Speaker B: Because there's not, like, a desk person. [00:33:15] Speaker A: No, no. There never needed to be a desk person, especially when I was on my own. Like, for an everyday routine aspect, it was like the phone wasn't ringing. There wasn't a ton of people coming in. Like, what was there for them to do? But also because it's like a front desk person always felt like this blockade for me. Whereas, like, you walked into the shop and it's like an intimidating person behind an intimidating desk, and they're basically like, why the fuck are you here? It's almost like you had to go into a shop and be like, please tattoo me like, I have money, but apparently I have to have to go through this criteria of this person thinks I'm cool enough to get a fucking tattoo here, which is ridiculous, right? So it's just moving, removing that barrier. It never needed to be in there in the first place. [00:33:59] Speaker B: It's funny you say that. So when I was in college, I worked at a record store, and there's this weird thing about just being behind the counter at the record store where people would treat you differently. [00:34:10] Speaker A: Yeah, you're a person of authority now. [00:34:13] Speaker B: If I'm just, like, going through the bins beside someone, I'm just like a, you know, like, whatever. But just because I happen to be one or 2ft over behind a glass desk, people are like, oh, hey, this is so weird. Like, I don't care. I'm not judging. I mean, I can't help but judge where some people would buy. Like, musically, of course, but, like, nobody's mean. Especially that shop is the shop called singles going steady. And the owner, Pete, was so nice, and everyone who worked there was super nice. But it was a weird dynamic, and it's true. It's like, you know when you're at a tattoo shop, it's like you walk in, it's like there's someone behind the desk. You know, like, it does have that thing. And when Monica had shared that you don't have a desk person or, like, a front desk, I was like, that's cool, because suddenly you're talking with someone who's very likely going to tattoo you or is tattooing people. It's just a different kind of dynamic. It's like, boom, you're in. You're into the conversation. [00:35:07] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. [00:35:09] Speaker B: So something else that stood out to me is, like, your shop isn't, and I've been primarily tattooed in tattoo shops where it's just, like, a bunch of dudes who all look like me working at tattoo shops. So I'm not, like, against that. It's just how I've come up. But your shop isn't that. [00:35:25] Speaker A: No. [00:35:25] Speaker B: Your shop is much more representative of different backgrounds and identities. Intentional or unintentional? [00:35:32] Speaker A: No, I think unintentional. I'm not trying to, like, put people in there who are intentionally different or from a subculture or bringing business that way. These people, I know them, they wanted to come into the space, and I just. If. I mean, if the vibe's good and there's a station and we mesh well, then it doesn't really matter who they are. [00:35:57] Speaker B: I suppose it's super organic because. [00:36:00] Speaker A: Yeah, it's always been really organic. Yeah, yeah. [00:36:02] Speaker B: Because it doesn't have that. What I feel can sometimes be a little, you know, like, I'm trying to show what a good a person I am by who I hire, rather. It's like I want to give everyone a venue as long as the vibe is right and the right people find you. [00:36:18] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you. If you've made the wrong hire, I think usually you figure it out pretty quick. Right. It doesn't take long. We're in such a. In such close quarters in there, too. So if somebody's not like, it's just not working. It's just not working. Yeah. [00:36:33] Speaker B: So let's talk pandemic. [00:36:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:36:35] Speaker B: How did you do it? [00:36:36] Speaker A: That was wild. I remember Craig and I tattooing, and we would have. Remember when they did that? Like, they do their three week or two week update and it's. It's our premier and the health minister, and they're talking about whether they're gonna do lockdowns or whatever. So we would be tattooing and we would have the update on tv and we would be watching it. We'd be like, fuck, here it comes. Here it comes. And then he'd be like, yeah, we're locking down for a month or whatever. So Craig and I would have this week before lockdowns and we would just pack people in. Like, I'm talking fucking noon to midnight. We would work so hard. It would be super draining and stressful, and then we would be locked down for three months. So we would just try to make a mad push and then lock down. The lucky thing is I had a super good landlord who went through that rent subsidy program, so I didn't have to pay rent the whole time. The guys weren't on rent, so we didn't worry about them because they were selling percentage back then. So it's like, if you weren't working, you weren't contributing. Obviously, if I'm not working, I'm not making money either. We're all in the same boat, right? So, yes. Just made it. Made it was six months. We didn't work rough. [00:37:45] Speaker B: That is so wild. So what did you do with yourself during that time? [00:37:50] Speaker A: Well, I built a home gym, because gym was closed down, and I'm like, if I can't tattoo or get exercise, I'm gonna kill myself. Like, literally super depressed. And then. Yeah, I remember it was just like, a lot of bike rides with my kids trying to be outside because they were off school. Yeah, it was hard. It was super hard making art, trying to be creative, man. Yeah, it was rough. I remember Max and I, who was at the shop, my shop, for the time. At the time. Sorry. We were both straight edge. We had been straight edge for ten years, and we were like. We started drinking. We're like, oh, this is done. [00:38:27] Speaker B: The pandemic took off. Many an edge. Went down by the pandemic. [00:38:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:32] Speaker B: Can we tuck into mental health for a sec? [00:38:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:36] Speaker B: So, you know, as mentioned to you earlier, I grew up playing music and have had the great fortune of knowing a lot of musicians, a lot of artists from all different kinds of backgrounds of their art. One thing that I've noticed has been a through line, not for everyone, but for a lot of people involved in kind of artistic pursuits or challenges with mental health. [00:38:55] Speaker A: True. [00:38:55] Speaker B: And how they manage it. So I'm interested in this both from, like, a personal side and also, like, a boss side. Like, how do you manage both supporting employees who may have some kind of mental health concerns and anything around your mental health? [00:39:09] Speaker A: I manage my mental health. I don't know. Sometimes I don't think I manage it super good. I definitely. I'm a very solitary person, so I isolate a lot, but, yeah, I try and have just keep going and have positive interactions. The people at the shop, if they. Yeah, I mean, I'm always. Man, I've been to. I've had coworkers that I went to AA meetings with. I've had people want to talk about stuff after hours. I'm always a friend to everybody, and I try and be super supportive, mental health wise, for anything that. That people need. If it's anxiety issues or depression issues. Yeah. [00:39:51] Speaker B: On my side, like, so I own my own business and pandemic was wild. But because a lot of people that I work with, we all, most of us come from kind of like punk and hardcore and we have good friendships. Like, we all kind of knew each other beforehand or got to know each other very well because we have those, like similar counter or subculture kind of things. And then also we have some people who are just normal, like business people. But overall, during the pandemic, we were pretty good. But it was where I was finding the biggest dip in challenge is post pandemic, because, like, okay, we can work again. We can do all these things and we didn't stop working. In fact, my work schedule was nuts during the pandemic. But afterwards, our business, as a result of the pandemic grew quite a bit. We just were really lucky with our position in the market. Like, all the kind of right things happen and now I feel like I'm just trying to keep the wheels from falling off half the time. And that's where I saw some challenges with people. One of the things I've been working on is not setting a bad example because I work really hard. I get up super early, I work late. I'm constantly working on doing emails. Always in the mix. Something I realized. I can have all of these mental health stuff. I can listen to people, I can do that. I'm setting this terrible example because I'm like a maniac. I work constantly. This is my business. Of course, that's something I've been trying to gear back on, like, really, really hard and like, demonstrate that I will not work during certain. I'll try hard not to work during certain times. [00:41:25] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Boundaries are good, right? [00:41:28] Speaker B: It's so easy to be like, oh, we've got boundaries. But then, like, no, it's your own business. It's nuts. [00:41:33] Speaker A: Of course. Yeah. I think if you have that, if you're that kind of person, too, who just always, you like the work and you want to keep going, keep going. It's hard to be like, I have to take a step back. [00:41:43] Speaker B: I'm a builder. I love building things. And like, when I was a little kid, Lego was my favorite toy. [00:41:49] Speaker A: Nice. [00:41:49] Speaker B: And I love putting things together, bringing people together, creating things. [00:41:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:53] Speaker B: And I almost don't even care what it is that we're creating. I just like people coming together to do something. And I am the worst when it comes to work because I just get, like, ultra obsessed about getting certain goals and getting them done. I'm highly competitive. [00:42:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:08] Speaker B: And I believe competitive in, like, a. Like, a healthy way, like, not a toxic way. [00:42:12] Speaker A: Sure. Yep. [00:42:14] Speaker B: But I have a hard time, like, basically putting down the pen and being like, okay, enough is enough. I have to have these boundaries, but I'm like, the first person will talk about having boundaries and good health stuff. [00:42:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:26] Speaker B: Being a boss, for me, it isn't hard to come up with ideas or to execute any ideas. It's knowing when to pump the brakes so that everyone gets a little bit of a break. [00:42:35] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. Well, especially if you're just affecting yourself, then what does it matter? You don't have to put your pen down if you love it. But, I mean, you would know if you need to. But if you're affecting people around you, then obviously, I mean, you have to be supportive to your staff, right? [00:42:52] Speaker B: Totally. If you asked me what I thought, like, proper work day was, I'd be like, when the work is done. [00:42:56] Speaker A: Well, sure, but that's okay for you, which is fine. You can go all night. They want to go to bed. [00:43:04] Speaker B: It never is done. It totally is never done. [00:43:06] Speaker A: Yeah. I don't think it has to be a bad thing either. People are like, oh, make sure you take a break and take a step back. It's like, well, maybe my mental health thing is being in it, you know, all the time. Yeah, maybe I'm okay with that, and maybe that's okay. [00:43:17] Speaker B: Well, part of my mental health, I'd say, like, the way that I keep myself going, like, for sure, physical exercise is a huge, huge, huge part of it. [00:43:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:43:26] Speaker B: I blew out my new. My knee two years ago. Thank you. It has been the most humbling thing of all time. It's the first time I ever felt like there are a couple moments in my life where we're truly humbling and where I just fell flat in my face, ate complete shit, and I've usually come back from it and been like, oh, that was the thing. That was the game changer for me. I'm, like, a better person from it, or I'm a better business person or I'm a better partner. Whatever it is. This is the only time I ate shit. And there hasn't been a happy ending so far where I was, like, I was overdoing it on my knee. I was running too hard. I was. Cause I was a runner. [00:44:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:02] Speaker B: And I was running. I was trying to do this hundred day challenge that I myself made up for literally no reason. And I was like, I'm gonna run 100 days. And I had done one already and was like, I'll do another one. And it was December. I see terrible conditions. And I was out running, and I felt. I felt something go when I slipped. [00:44:23] Speaker A: Oh, no. [00:44:24] Speaker B: And, of course, I kept running, and they kept running. And Monica was like, I think he tore your meniscus. And I was like, oh, it's fine. I ran for another three ish months and then basically couldn't. I could barely walk for six months. [00:44:35] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. [00:44:36] Speaker B: And now it's, like, enough on the mend where I can do stuff again. So I'm like, you know, doing peloton or whatever, but there's no happy ending. I'm not like, this is what I've learned. I'm like, this sucks. But my mental health during that time was, like, anxiety through the roof. Super worried about the business. I was also going through, like, a really difficult divorce at the time. So it was, like, really tough. [00:44:59] Speaker A: Yep. [00:44:59] Speaker B: But the difference that I notice when I have, like, just even a basic workout routine every day and I'm managing my diet well, where I'm just, like, being thought more thoughtful. What I eat, it's, like, crazy. It's just, like, flipping on a light. Like, it's from, like, I'm hyper focused on work, and I'm going to work nonstop to, oh, I know when to stop. So part of it for me is just, like, diet and exercise. Of course, it helps me judge better. [00:45:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's everybody. And we forget that, too, that we're in this, you know, mechanical meat suit, and it's not gonna work the same as this. [00:45:29] Speaker B: That. Totally. [00:45:29] Speaker A: Right? We think. We think we're okay, but we're not. So we have to have that. We have to have the fundamentals. [00:45:36] Speaker B: I've never heard mechanical meat suit. What do you do, though? Like, what's your exercise? [00:45:41] Speaker A: I have a home gym. So I do. I used to do powerlifting, and then I kind of phased out of that. And now I'm just doing a lot of, like, weight stuff. Just trying to be, like, fit and lean and keep going. I had to take a huge pause for a while. Cause I had some terrible, terrible pain issues. Some health stuff for a while. So now I'm just slowly getting back into it. [00:46:00] Speaker B: Did you have to do something about it, or was it just kind of. [00:46:02] Speaker A: Like, rest and recuperation for my pain stuff? Oh, no, it was. I've had a lot of health issues in my life. The newest one was that I had. I had this reoccurrent pain in my elbow. For, like, two years. And my trainer was like, it's coming from your rhomboids or whatever, rotator cuff injuries. And then I'm trying to, like, I have a physiotherapist, I have a chiropractor, I have massage. Like, I'm pretty big on self care because I don't have the best health. So already I need to maintain better. So it turned out that I have advanced arthritis in my c five and c six. And because of doing this for my whole fucking life, right. Putting your head down and drawing, even when I was a child. So all that is built up to now. So what it was doing was crushing down on my nerve that led to my elbow and come down into these two fingers. So that nerve pain alone and also hurt my shoulder. I wanted to kill myself. I'm not even kidding. It got to a level of extremity where I'm like, I said to my doctor, it's gonna stop. Either you're gonna fix it, or I'm gonna die. Like, I'm not kidding. I wanna cut my arm off. It's that excruciating. And then that just everything goes downhill from there. Your mental health is gone. Cause you're in pain all the time. Right? So just coming out of that now. [00:47:19] Speaker B: So what did you do? [00:47:22] Speaker A: I went on some crazy neurological medication, and then that turns your brain off. And the part where it says, don't make this nerve hurt. Wow. So obviously, it's not a means to an end, but, I mean, I can't reverse the arthritis. So it's like, this is always gonna be right. So now I'm just. Now it's. I've trained my brain. I'm coming off this drug, which is a wild drug, because it changes the mechanics of how your brain works. [00:47:50] Speaker B: I feel like that's very similar, if not the exact same thing as, like, the headbanger's curse. Like, Tom from slare and, like, Dave Mustaine had to get, like, operations on that. [00:47:59] Speaker A: Cause they're always like, there you go. Yes, yes. Looking down. Yeah. Yeah. Really meant to do that for a long period of time. [00:48:04] Speaker B: Well, at least you're up there with some greats. Some greats of the genre. [00:48:08] Speaker A: Yeah. But, yeah, that's just, like, that small thing. And then you're. You're in your late forties, and it's like, oh, hey, guess what? [00:48:16] Speaker B: Now it's an issue around your kids. What's their interaction with the tattoo culture? Is it just like, oh, this is what, like, you know, our parent does or are they, like, are they having interest in it? [00:48:26] Speaker A: Interest in it, maybe as far as getting tattooed, but no interest in it in being tattooed. Tattooer. [00:48:30] Speaker B: Yeah. How did you do that? Balance of parenting, especially, like, single parenting and running your own business? [00:48:37] Speaker A: I just found a. Luckily, I found a lady running a day home that would take. Actually, no, I found my friend who I tattooed, who also had, like, a, like, a childcare background, and she wasn't doing much. So I was like, I kind of coerced her into being my nanny because my daughter was eight months and I couldn't put her in a day home until she was like a year or a year and a half. So I was like, what do I do? So my parents didn't live close. I had no support here, so I luckily got her to do it. So she would come pick scholar up at the shop and then take her back to my house. [00:49:14] Speaker B: Well, I'm, like, big on mentors, and I never came up with a mentor when I was young. [00:49:21] Speaker A: Right. [00:49:22] Speaker B: And I was not, like, I didn't grow up in a close family. Like, my family went on to become close as we got older. [00:49:27] Speaker A: Okay. [00:49:27] Speaker B: But we were under, like, just a very challenging situation when I was young. So, like, I kind of grew up rudderless a little bit, you know, and that because of that, I believe so much in mentorship and coaching and all that kind of stuff. So if we were thinking from, like, both personal and professional or either or whichever. Who are your mentors? Who are the people that, like, you can say, yeah, that was someone who's a bit of a north star for me. [00:49:53] Speaker A: My parents. Yeah, my brother. My parents are. They're older now. They're in their seventies, but they're like, they've been self employed for the last. Oh, man. Since my. I would say since my. For the last 25 years, they've been self employed. So that's a big. And they've always been super supportive of me. Help me out anytime. My brother, he runs, like, a car dealership. He's a dealer principal, so he's always been super supportive seeing somebody on that aspect, too. And then, yeah, I have a couple tattooer friends. One of them is named Stuart McKellar, and he works in Scotland. He's always been super close to me and a really good friend. Another one in Washington that I used to see a lot. His name is Casey Lang. So, yeah, just giving some good friends close. [00:50:44] Speaker B: So any professional who's been, like, at all successful, even, like, minorly successful, but someone who's got, like, a pretty significant history of success, which I believe is true for you. [00:50:56] Speaker A: Oh, thank you. [00:50:57] Speaker B: Well, and I think it speaks for itself. You're gonna be put in a position where people look up to you. [00:51:02] Speaker A: Sure. [00:51:03] Speaker B: And you're gonna have people who just interact with you a little bit, who look up to you, or people who, like, want to work with you or apprentice underneath you. You. So what approach do you take to dealing with people who look up to you or view you as a mentor? [00:51:18] Speaker A: I don't know. I just try and be myself. Yeah. [00:51:22] Speaker B: What about in terms of, like, apprenticeship, because you'd had, like, kind of a tough apprenticeship, what practices do you take? Like, how do you handle having an apprentice? [00:51:30] Speaker A: I think I'm pretty empathetic. I think that I remember that I'm teaching a person who's just a person, like me, how to do my job, which is what I do. I try not to be emotionally involved. I try and be a good listener and try and understand their needs, try and be more compassionate with their work schedules and stuff. Yeah. [00:51:59] Speaker B: And if we go back to the industry. So, yeah, the industry seems to have made some changes and some really, really cool changes. And there's just, like, it's neat now. Like, when I go into a shop, it's like I feel like almost from shop to shop, it's like there does seem to. Things do seem to be different. Like people are a little bit more, like, empathetic, a little bit more sensitive. [00:52:18] Speaker A: Yep. [00:52:18] Speaker B: It seems a little bit more, like, raw. [00:52:21] Speaker A: Good. [00:52:21] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, of course, I only go to a very few amount of shops, but of course it just seems like the vibe is different. [00:52:27] Speaker A: That's good. [00:52:28] Speaker B: If you're thinking about the next, like, five years or ten years, what are the hills the industry still needs to climb? [00:52:36] Speaker A: I think the hills of not tolerating intolerance and not being a supporter of people who are known abusers or people who have taken advantage of people. I think that a lot of that has to be a lot of letting things slide. No more letting things slide. I think there has to be a really stern mentality going forward for zero tolerance. And then as far as other things go, man, I hope it gets busy again within the next five years. So that'd be nice. People making up, making a substantial living again off of it. Yeah. I don't know. The landscape is different now, so I don't know if it's ever going to be the same. [00:53:22] Speaker B: Well, it's so wild, because, like, across industries, I have a good friend in Toronto. Shout out hambone. Love you. Friend of the show, Chris Hamill, he has some barbershops in Toronto. And he was like, dude, it's pandemic. Obviously, during the pandemic. But he's like, as a result, like, people working from home, nobody wants to come downtown. Downtown core jobs are just, like, dying. [00:53:46] Speaker A: Yep. Yeah. That just flipped everything. The pandemic. Nothing's been the same since then. Nothing. People included. [00:53:52] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. I totally agree. Our business. I'm always so appreciative of what happened during the business, because I remember when the pandemic started, I was like, well, that was nice, having a business. And then suddenly it changed, and we were just in this wild position where we had already done everything online. Not because I was, like, smart and thought that was the future. I just did it because I was like, oh, just started a business. We don't have an office, so I guess we do everything online. [00:54:17] Speaker A: Yep. [00:54:18] Speaker B: And then suddenly everything went online, but we were already positioned to do it. And as our competitors kind of, like, dropped off, we just work funneled in. Yeah, it was right time, right place. Um, but I have just so much time for people who are out of different experience, because a lot of the real traditional things we have to be in person, they haven't come back. [00:54:38] Speaker A: Yep. True. Yeah. [00:54:40] Speaker B: All right, we're about to go into the crucial three, as that means there are three really difficult questions. They're going to scale up in difficulty. We'll start easy. What's one thing, and it could be personal or professional that you discovered that you wanted to work on about yourself. [00:54:56] Speaker A: Yep. [00:54:57] Speaker B: And that you've been successful in changing. So you're not still working on it. You've got it. You've changed it. What's one thing. [00:55:02] Speaker A: Oh, man. I told you should have given me beforehand. I could do my research. One thing that I've changed personally and professionally. Hmm, okay. Professionally, I think just being more outspoken and then also remember going back to the. Being the annoying, loud person. I think professionally, I like to give. This is stuff that I've accomplished. Yeah. Let's hope that I've accomplished more of the person who's like, hey, I'm gonna speak up first, and then I'll make. I'll pave this. This road, and everybody can come through now. Maybe making it more. More safe and acceptable to be like, oh, they spoke up, and nothing terrible happened. No one. No one died. Maybe. Maybe the rest of us can't. So maybe giving people a platform, I think maybe I've been successful at that, trying to, but not always be the annoying person, but be the more the person to say, here is the bullhorn. Right. You can use it. Maybe that. [00:56:18] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great answer. [00:56:20] Speaker A: Okay. [00:56:21] Speaker B: All right. What's one thing that you have been working on personally, professionally, that you have yet to succeed at? [00:56:27] Speaker A: I don't know. Maybe just being more of a social being. In general, I think I'm kind of an introverted extrovert. Right. So I think professionally being more interactive with my industry, even my art industry, too, would be beneficial. I don't think I've gotten there yet. Yeah. Bridge that gap. [00:56:48] Speaker B: Are you ready for the last one? [00:56:49] Speaker A: Okay. [00:56:51] Speaker B: So big, big Nas fan, huh? [00:56:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:55] Speaker B: Okay. Why is a really tough Nas question. [00:57:01] Speaker A: Oh, no. [00:57:04] Speaker B: Okay, I'll tell you. Cause I know you just went to the show, and it was great. [00:57:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:57:09] Speaker B: What was one part of the show that was way better than you thought it was gonna be? And what's one part of the show that wasn't as good as it could have been? [00:57:19] Speaker A: I don't think there was, like, full songs start to finish. Right. So that would have been great. In my experience, we were pretty high at the show, so some of it all blurred together. What was so great? Method man was so great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that guy, he is in such amazing shape. [00:57:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:57:43] Speaker A: Like, he took his shirt off, and I was like, whoa, what the hell? You look great. I mean, he must be in his fifties now, but, yeah, he was super energetic and just, like, vibing off the crowd, and that was, like, that performance was so good. Yeah. [00:57:57] Speaker B: It's so funny you say that about Method man. Method man right now is a little bit of my icon around, like, getting back into shape. [00:58:03] Speaker A: Yeah, he looks amazing. It's crazy. Yeah, crazy good. [00:58:08] Speaker B: So, like, I don't know, maybe six months ago. And when I talk about, like, being in shape, it's like, you know, I don't care about, like, body size or any of those things. Just, like, feeling comfortable in the way that I am and, of course, like, energetic, healthy, all those things. Probably, like, six months ago, I was, like, so bummed. I was, like, eating poorly. I was working like, crazy, all this stuff, and I just felt like. Cause the stuff with my knee was so bad, I had started running again, and then my knee just, like, really went out, and it was that kind of moment where my doctor was like, what is wrong with you? Like, you're not gonna run again. Like, get over it. So I was, like, just bummed. And there was this little clip on YouTube of method man talking about, like, some beef. [00:58:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:58:51] Speaker B: And not that he was involved in beef, but he was just like, kind of being method man and joking about it. He was like, whoa, people were beefing. And I was listening to the story, but more, I was like, method man looks great. He's lost a lot of weight. He looks really healthy. He looks really ripped. And I started reading more about it. I'm like, method man, you are my inspiration. Literally. Since then, I've been, like, pushing on it. So, yeah, I'm so glad. Yeah. Method man rocks. Wutang rocks. I'm glad you had a good time. All right, that's it. We have hit it. Anything you want to say as we're closing off? [00:59:20] Speaker A: Nope. Thanks for having me, though. [00:59:22] Speaker B: You bet you are. Awesome. Thank you so much. And thank you so much for offering up a few people for us to interview as well, who are totally fantastic. [00:59:29] Speaker A: Yeah, right? [00:59:30] Speaker B: Awesome. Everyone, I hope you enjoyed this interview as much as I did. Please check out all the links below that it's going to give you Carrie's info and where you can find the shop. And with that, we'll see you next time on one step beyond. [00:59:41] Speaker A: One step. One that what? Beyond.