Kevin Boyle, Chief Technology Officer, Dentsply Sirona

[00:00:00] Speaker A: None of us could have predicted where I am today. So I couldn't have said two years ago that a year from now I'm going to be sitting as the CTO at Dentsply Sirona. It's just, you just don't pick these things out and instead what you do is you focus on the job that you're doing and you do it to the best of your ability. And what's happened for me then is more opportunities have presented themselves. [00:00:23] Speaker B: That was a clip from today's guest. Hey everybody, welcome back to the show. It's always fun for me when I get to do an episode with someone that I know is a great business leader, someone I respect and I admire, and also someone that I've worked with for a long time, that I've known for a long time. So we have that, like, deeper personal relationship as well. Today's guest is someone that has done some very, very significant things in the business world and has done stuff that has really ultimately been about improving people's lives and continues to do that also. Just like a cool, cool, interesting story from a very, very interesting person. But before we get to it, please rate review subscribe to the podcast. My name is Aram Arslanian and this is one step beyond Kevin. Welcome to the show. [00:01:29] Speaker A: Hey, Ram, thanks for having me. [00:01:31] Speaker B: All right, so for the uninitiated, for those who don't know, who are you and what do you do? [00:01:37] Speaker A: Kevin Boyle, chief technology officer at Dentsply Sirona. People may not know Dentsply Sirona. It's a dental equipment and dental consumables manufacturer. And we also have a continence care business as well. So the company's been around for over 100 years, over 4 billion in revenue, and I'm fortunate enough to have joined just under a year ago and I lead the R and D organization there. [00:02:04] Speaker B: Heck yeah. Okay, so tell us your role. Sounds like amazing. Tell us what that actually means to just the average layperson. [00:02:14] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a fun role. So it's very much focused on innovation, bringing new technologies to the market, solving problems for our customers, and improving care for our patients. And it's exciting because we really get to have a significant impact on outcomes and treatments. And what's particularly interesting about the dental space is we cover everything from when the patient sits in the chair all the way through to their final procedure and follow ups and you really get the full continuum of care oversight that you don't really get in some other medical spaces. And being able to have an impact in that space with a company like, like Dentsply, Serona, it's, it's a fun role. [00:03:02] Speaker B: I think, like, even when you first told me about this role. And I think just for the average person, if they think of like technology and dentistry, like, there's like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. But like, if I think about the dentist, I think of A, avoiding the dentist and B, I think about just getting my teeth drilled, being uncomfortable. Like, from a technology standpoint, what does that actually look like? And what are some of kind of like the bigger things that have been difference makers within the past few years? [00:03:30] Speaker A: I was surprised the more I got into it to understand the breadth of technologies that are involved. Right. So it goes from everything that would be traditionally familiar with, from getting your teeth cleaned, but then there's also everything that goes on in the orthodontic space, so you'd be familiar with that. And then everything that goes with aligners within that space. So it's not just wires and brackets that you put in your teeth. And then there's other stuff, right. If you need a root canal, that's another kind of procedure. And if you need to get a crown and if you need to get tooth implants, if you need dentures, so it ends up spanning quite a lot of different areas. And they're all different technologies that are used in those spaces. So they're all the things that would, you know, go in your mouth from that perspective. But then there's also all the imaging that goes with it. So there's everything from you get the X ray or you get an intraoral scan, or you get a CBCT image. And we sell all of those technologies and develop all of those technologies too. So then you're getting into complex electromechanical systems. And then what's most interesting and how the space is evolving is the entire ecosystem and bringing that into one software architecture. So if you think of something like an Apple iOS system, where you have all your different technologies and they're all connected together on one iOS platform, we have a solution called DS Core that pulls all of these technologies together. So from simplifying the workflow, from a dentist perspective, that's key. And then there's also, if you think of it from an Amazon perspective, and you want to be able to order product and track where your orders are and pay the billing and all that side of things. So really it ends up being Quite a complex iOS Amazon like experience that we're looking to deliver as well. So it really, any technology you can think of we end up playing in a lot of those different spaces. [00:05:29] Speaker B: So when people think about, again, just on average, the average layperson, myself included, if you think about technology, you know, usually thinking about, like you said, like Apple, like I'm thinking about my new iPhone or, you know, like my computer or whatever. But at the heart of this, and because so much of your career has really been based in like, health technology, and we'll get into some like, historical stuff as we go on. We talk about innovation because I know you love innovation and that's something that's like really like turns on the lights for you. What's the difference? Again, just to a life person, is it essentially the same thing? When you think about innovation in the space of like consumable technology, like iPhones versus health technology, is it basically the same thing or are there some things that are like, clear differentiators? [00:06:18] Speaker A: I think the parallel to what I was describing makes sense. And it's not fully implemented, right? So it's not at the maturity level of an Apple or an Amazon ecosystem. And it's trying to bring that, bring it to that, to that level. And again, if you think about your own personal experience when you go to the dentist and trying to understand what treatments you need, it can be a lot, right? And particularly if you've got something significant that needs to be addressed and it could be a significant financial burden too. So really being able to provide very clear information on the diagnosis, very clear information on the treatment plan, how long it's going to take, how much it's going to cost. It can be overwhelming amount of information to receive all at once and being able to have a good way to communicate that. So we've got a tool called Communication Canvas that we can use and we can really explain much more clear to patients exactly what, what the situation is and what the treatment plan is going to be and just take the fear out of it. [00:07:29] Speaker B: I went through a period of my life where again, anyone listening to the show would know my background is as a therapist. I went through a period where I went to go seek some therapy and it was like driving me crazy because I was like both in it and then also was like, oh, I saw what you did there. Like, I was like in the therapist mindset anyways, it's a later conversation. So what, like, what gets someone, you know, if someone's like, you know, an engineer, like, kind of into like, you know, emerging technologies and innovation, all this stuff, what gets someone to go into kind of like the healthcare side of it versus getting into Anything else that revolves around technology, is it just like, yeah, I knew I wanted to do this in school, or is it just kind of luck of the draw where you get hired? [00:08:12] Speaker A: I think for me, the reason I like healthcare so much is the outcome at the end. Right. So you can apply those skills to any discipline, like you said, but it's really what's the overall outcome you're going to have in the end? Are you making the world a better place? It might sound a bit hairy or whatever, but it's really, you want to do something that's really having a meaningful impact. And if you're going to apply your energy and your time and your intelligence to something, you'd like to know that you're actually doing something that's going to have a very positive impact. And that's what really drew me to healthcare and has kept me in healthcare for, you know, 25 years now, was really about the ability to have that impact and have that influence. And I really can't think of another industry that gives you that type of reward. At the end of the day, what. [00:09:07] Speaker B: Was your path to it? So, you know, how did you, where did you grow up? How did you first get interested in this space and then kind of, what was your like educational slash career path down this direction? [00:09:19] Speaker A: Yeah. So not as linear as you, as maybe most people in the space. So I grew up in Ireland and went to university and did my master's there and actually started out in software engineering and telecommunications with Ericsson. So I did that for about five years and that was a great experience too. And then it was really, I was trying to stay in that software engineering side of things. And what happened was we moved to a different part of the country in Ireland and we were setting up family and the part that we moved to didn't really have much software engineering. It was all medtech spaces. So I kind of fell into it in a fortuitous way and started out with Medtronic and was working in their coronary division, working on drug eluding stains, high pressure balloons, all for treating coronary artery disease. Started out as an associate R and D engineer there and like from day one, fell in love with that industry and that space and, and the work that we were doing there. And over time, you know, different opportunities presented themselves to me and got an opportunity to move to the, to California to their AAA business, aortic abdominal abdominal aneurysms and worked in that space for five years and then from there got another opportunity that came my way to be VP of R& D at Becton Dickinson, which was originally CR Barred. They were acquired by BD after a few years and I was in their peripheral intervention business there. Worked on peripheral arterial disease, end stage kidney disease, oncology solutions, a lot of mechanical electromechanical drug combination devices. So a lot of fun working with a lot of different technologies, solving big clinical problems and having a lot of impact there. And then post the acquisition of CR BART by bd, I took on the interventional segment. So I had that original business unit of peripheral interventions and then I got two more business units of urology and critical care and surgery. And that expanded my scope of different technologies in different spaces, getting into those areas with targeted temperature management, surgical solutions, urology solutions, endourology. So it was again a lot of fun, a lot of good teams that I got to work with, a lot of great minds and people got to work with and ultimately, you know, was in a position to be able to deliver a lot of impactful solutions that really had massive impact on patient lives. [00:12:07] Speaker B: So I want to go, go back when you said like from day one I fell in love with it. What did you fall in love with? [00:12:13] Speaker A: So the software side for me was interesting and it was kind of intellectually a challenge and all of that, but maybe it was just the more mechanical engineering side of it. So my first day that I went into Medtronic, I was building a catheter in the R and D lab and we were building prototypes and it was the hands on aspect of it, it was the material science piece of it. It was a much more integrated team because we were working towards one product, one solution to solve a specific customer need. And it was just a very focused and collaborative type of environment with, as I said previously, you're something that was really going to make an impact on people's lives. So I love my time in Ericsson, but that was, you know, base station controllers are massively complex software solutions and we had subsets of that system, but you never really got to see the full breadth and scale of the, of the solution. And there was teams all over the world working on it and you were delivering your piece of code, but you never really got to feel the full impact of what you were delivering. So I think the, the medtech space, the solutions are somewhat more contained and you can wrap your arms around it much more easily. And the value proposition that you were bringing was much more defined and you could see the end goal very clearly and you could just drive towards that and then ultimately you get out to see that product being used in patients and you really see the impact firsthand. And that was me hooked after that. [00:14:05] Speaker B: You said earlier you're kind of like, hey, I want to make a change in the world. I want to make good things in the world. How that kind of sounds airy, and I know it can sound airy, but also knowing you as I do, I know that's totally real. And wanting to create change in the world and being able to do practical and tangible things, things that actually like, are like, oh no, this, here's this thing I built in the lab with all these people and here's the change it makes. That's something that I think is. Doesn't sound eerie. It sounds awesome and exciting and like a real difference maker. But where did you get that desire? Is that something you grew up with? So like your family that you, that you grew up with, was that like kind of making an impact, creating change the world? Was that kind of just part of how you grew up or is that something you found on your own for yourself? [00:14:56] Speaker A: Yeah, it wasn't how we grew up because, you know, probably typical for a lot of people of my generation, you know, most my, my parents and etc. Never went to college and didn't have that type of opportunity. They were more blue collar and worked hard and, you know, we had a great upbringing and everything. But that I wasn't really exposed to those kind. They weren't really exposed to those kind of opportunities. So I didn't really get to see the way to be able to do that. And it was really. Once I got out in the world myself and I started getting into my own career, then the opportunity blossomed before me and, you know, just grabbed it with two hands. And it was just something that resonated with me from, just from my own core values and, you know, just wanting to do the right thing type of, type of upbringing and just, just resonated with me from there. [00:15:55] Speaker B: I'm lucky because I get to work with a lot of senior level leaders in tons of different industries. And I say most people like want to do good things in the world, they want to make a change. But of, of the great people I get to work with, the desire to actually make a deep desire paired with a deep dislike of mediocrity are true trademarks of what I'd say is like, Kevin Boyle, you really want to make an impact and you really don't want to suffer mediocrity. So this is something. What are your thoughts on that before I go forward? I don't know if you would agree or disagree with that. [00:16:32] Speaker A: Yeah, you're always good at reading people, and I think you read me better than I read myself. So, um, yeah, I mean, you only get one shot at it, right? So you want to make the biggest impact you can have. And I guess that's how I approach pretty much everything in my life, right. I try and give it everything I've got, and if I can be successful, great. And if it doesn't work out, you know, pick up and go again. So. And it's not about. It's not all about me. Right. So what I've very much learned over time is that, you know, I started out my career somewhat with that perspective, but also quickly came to realize that you can't do any of this on your own. It's always a team effort. And beyond that, it's how can you make the team as good as it can be? And how can you stimulate the people to share the goals and share the vision and share the energy and share in the outcomes and the satisfaction that comes with that? So, particularly more and more as I get into this leadership, these leadership roles and have larger teams, it's all about what can I do to make those teams successful? What can I do to give people the opportunities that I got and help them have that impact? Because when you're leading a large team over lots of geographies and lots of projects and lots of different cultures, it's really just about, you know, what can I do to remove the barriers for them and enable them to be successful? And then there's great joy in that. Right? So when you see somebody make that transition and reach their potential and soaring in an organization again, that's been probably the most rewarding aspect of my career over the last few years. [00:18:20] Speaker B: I want to get back into this piece about leadership, and I want to come back to dealing with mediocrity and all of that. [00:18:27] Speaker A: But. [00:18:27] Speaker B: But I want to go back to that. Start with the idea of you only get one shot and give it all you got. Because there's another part of your story here that I think is adjacent and connects to all this is your background in sports. So whatever you're comfortable sharing with your background in sports. [00:18:45] Speaker A: I grew up in a competitive family and I love that kind of upbringing. So I have three older brothers and an older sister, and all my brothers did, did rowing through high school and university. And in Ireland, that's not as an elevated status as maybe in other countries. It was just a sport that was offered in high school. And a lot of us got into that, into that area. But even as a family unit growing up, you know, my dad would instill a lot of competitiveness in us. You know, for example, at the end of dinner, we take out the cards, and whoever got the lowest card had to do all the dishes and do all the cleanup. And it was just for us, that was kind of fun, and that was normal. And then whenever we had people over, we'd still take out the cards, and whoever got the lowest card would have to do the dishes. And somehow it was always a guest who was visiting ended up having to do the dishes. But so we kind of grew up with that constant kind of competitiveness in the family. And then from there, you know, I followed my brothers into rowing as well and had success at that, winning, you know, national titles and racing junior World Championships and Under 23s and representing my country as a senior athlete. And I just enjoyed the intensity of the competition. And in that, you know, you learned that you have to give everything, you have to be fully committed if you want to get the outcomes that you're looking for. And you need that same mindset pretty much in every aspect of life. Right. So with work with family, you have to be all in with it and give it your full effort to make all of those things work and be functional. And, you know, I'm still rowing, so I just got back from the Masters World Championships. I was there with my brother, and we were racing it together in a pair, and it's a great way to stay connected, and it's a fun event to go do. And we. We just missed out on a gold medal by 0.3 of a second, which dings. But we'll. We'll be back next year. We know what we need to work on. And. And for us, that's that type of, you know, pushing yourself to your limit on a continuous basis just feels like living. [00:21:05] Speaker B: Yeah. So around being competitive because, again, I know you're. You're a highly competitive person, but competition and being competitive, like, culturally within. Well, I'll say North America, because that's where we are right now. But it can be viewed as, like, a good thing. Like, oh, like, we're competitors here. But it could also be viewed as like, a toxic, like, oh, that's crappy when people are competitive. So again, like, I'm not asking you to, like, go to some big profound level, but if you were to. If you were to think about, like, what's really the difference between, like, a toxic competitive culture versus a, like, Healthy and progressive competitive culture. What would be some of the indicators there? [00:21:45] Speaker A: Yeah, so it's something I've had to give quite a bit of thought to because again, I'm that type A personality and I am hyper competitive, and that doesn't fit well with everybody. Right. So if you come in with that approach on top of everybody, it's going to lead to a toxic culture. So I don't mind sharing who I am and I can respect who other people are and I can meet people where they're at and, you know, there's all different people and we have to work together. So the key for me is that our team needs to be competitive against our competitors externally. So we need to work as a team, we need to work together. And it's about trying to build that sense of team. And you can have different types of people, you can have different types of personalities, and it's really about blending the best of each of those things together to get the team to perform at a high level. So it's not about individual competitiveness, but it's more about, hey, let's be aware of who our competitors are out there, what do we need to do to win against our competitors? But we almost. I've almost kind of pivoted away from that a little bit too, because I look at it more as, what do our customers need, what do our patients need, and what do we need to do to deliver that as quick as possible ahead of our competitors? So it's almost a. Let's leapfrog here. How do we leapfrog? We leapfrog through innovation. We leapfrog through having good rigor and process around that, building a culture around that. For me, what I've also found is that in every organization I've been in, the people are smart. Right. It's not. It's not a lack of smart people. It's not a lack of capable people. It ends up being culture that you want to build and a sense of common vision and purpose and a sense of continuous improvement. Because nothing's ever perfect. There's always room to be better. And if people accept that and don't think of it as a knock, but as a way to set a benchmark and we can strive forward and improve from there. And you bring people into the fold and you empower them to make decisions, all of those things then lead to the right kind of outcomes that you're ultimately trying to get to. [00:24:07] Speaker B: So in your own growth as a professional and then into a leader, what's something on your competitive side that you've had to manage. And so it's like, it's not necessarily a bad thing, but you could recognize I'm competitive. I kind of have to manage this part of my personality. So it works well within this group. [00:24:24] Speaker A: I mean, early on, so, you know, again, I was heart driven and I was trying to do it all myself, right. So I think that's where I was early on. And that'll work for a while when you're in more of an individual contributor type mode. And then as you progress, you can get away with that a little bit as well because you're, you can compensate for where you see gaps and all of that. And I think what was the change for me was to realize I have one way of doing things, but it's not the only way. And there's a lot of right ways to get the job done and letting go, to let people do it their way. And then seeing that work helped me learn. Okay, that's another way of doing things. That's also an effective way of doing things. And in some cases that's a better way of doing things. And then how do you, how do you take that learning and add it to my own learning and make everything better and how do you share that then with more people and how do you, you know, bring that sense together? So I think, I think the more I have been willing to step back and let people come forward with their ideas, the more successful outcomes have been overall. [00:25:45] Speaker B: All right, so let's go into getting into leadership. So you know, you start as most people start. Like you kind of start as an individual contributor. Was leader. Was getting into leadership roles something you sought out or was it something that just kind of naturally came? [00:25:59] Speaker A: It's probably a bit of both. And so, so, you know, Medtronica is a nice job of creating career leap, our career leader paths. And you can go down an individual contributor path, you can go down a project management path, you can go down a more managerial path or a core team leader path. So they have different options that are available to you and you're encouraged to, hey, which path do you want to go down? And for a period of time, you know, everybody's kind of the same because you got to advance at least some technical capabilities, etc. And then, and then you get to a fork in the road and that's which way you're going to go. And for me, I took the project management path because I love doing projects, right. I like to do, I liked the, the finite element to it. I liked The. The specificity of here's the problem that we're trying to solve. And I liked the. You. You build a team and then the team comes together and you work through it and you. And you drive it to the end. And I wasn't really looking to have people reporting directly to me. I was more looking for building that team. And similarly, in rowing, it was always a team effort, right? So I was in a boat with other people. You can't do it all on your own. It was all about having the right team around you and everybody coming together and working together. So that. That's where that's what most appealed to me. And then as that got bigger and bigger and then I got more and more projects, then you end up. You kind of shift more towards the functional side because you can't lead all the projects yourself, right? So then it ended up shifting and morphing into that. And then, you know, I never really planned out my career, like, I couldn't have told you. And we've talked about it, right? We've. We've had a long relationship here. None of us could have predicted where I am today. So I couldn't have said two years ago that a year from now I'm going to be sitting as the CTO at Dense Place Serona. It's just, you just don't pick these things out. And instead what you do is you focus on the job that you're doing and you do it to the best of your ability. And what's happened for me then is more opportunities have presented themselves and then you have a decision to make. Is that the path you want to go down, or do you want to stay where you're at, or do you want to go in a different direction? And I've enjoyed each leadership challenge as it's come. And then you kind of look, well, what would be the next step, as opposed to the next five steps? I've never found tremendous value for me to say in five years, in 10 years, this is where I want to be. I've been more flexible to the opportunities that have come my way. [00:28:35] Speaker B: How much of that flexibility do you think is based on your willingness to take a leap? Because you are certainly willing to take leaps of faith with no promise of a soft landing. So how much is that connected to that? [00:28:51] Speaker A: Heavily, so. Well, yeah, they're all kind of leaps, I guess, when I start thinking about it. So. So the, you know, I left a good job. I was in Dublin. I was working with Ericsson. We had a good job. We were and my wife had a good job there. And we, we left and we moved to the other side of the country with no promise of any job. So you do take a leap. And when we left Ireland and came to the US who was it was. Yeah, we. I was going to a job, but I was going to a different culture. I was going to a different business unit. I didn't know any of the people, and my wife had no job lined up. So it was. And we had two kids at that stage. So you're moving from one country all the way to California, and you're, you just kind of land there and you're. You're somewhat thrown in the deep end, right? There's people of an expectation, and you kind of have to, you have to go figure it out. And so you have to have some. You have to take a leap and you have to have some courage for it, but also have some confidence that what got you to that point is based on merit and that, you know, they wouldn't have given the opportunity if they didn't believe as well. And then you have to grab it with both hands and figure out how to make it work as well. So, you know, it's. There's a bit of 50, 50 in it. And fortunately for me, those leaps have worked out so far. [00:30:16] Speaker B: Well, if you take your experience and you would extrapolate it to, like, a younger professional, because, like, a lot of people talk in generalities about risk taking, you know, like, and, like, I get it. Like, it's like, you know, when someone asks you about, like, risk taking, it's like, I don't know, like, it's hard to talk about. But really, if you think about your career, because your career has been. You really didn't map it out. You just did the next right thing and made the next right decision. And like, I really, like you said, just like, you just take a hold of something and you figure it out. So if you were to extrapolate from your experience and the young professional who would be listening to this, like, what's just kind of like a few key takeaways you could say about risk taking and how to jump into it, like, how to just take that first leap. [00:31:04] Speaker A: I'm not sure how much conscious thought I gave to risk taking. It was more. It was more as each opportunity presented itself. It was, and it wasn't like total belief I could do it. It was more. It was almost like there was no other choice to some extent. And it was, you know, when we made the change going from Ireland to the us it was a. It was a now or never moment. Right. So we. If. If I didn't take that chance, I'd still be in Ireland and everything was going fine there. There was no reason to leave, per se, but at the same time, it was, you. What's the maximum impact you're going to have? So if you don't take a chance, you're never going to know. And to me, it didn't feel like an option, like a choice. It was. This is, you know, if I'm going to do what I want to do with my life, then, yeah, it's a risk, but it's almost. It's not a choice either. So I think that's how I. How I approached it. It was like the. It's. It's the now or never moment. And then, you know, you just have to be determined then to figure out how to make it work after that. And I've always had confidence that if I went at something with enough effort, with the right mental mindset, that I'd be able to make it work. [00:32:39] Speaker B: I love what you just said. That was never a choice. If I. When I quote an old hardcore band called Breakthrough, it's like one of my favorite demos. It was never a choice. I always liked that idea. It's like. And one of the themes that I hear a lot with people who are big impact makers is, like, always, there's always a ton of risk taking involved. But the way they describe what risk is, like, I wasn't really calculating it. It's just like. It was just like an hour. Never. This is not a choice. I'm doing this thing. And of course there's also, like, the parts and, you know, speak to this as much as you want. Like, sometimes when you take a leap, it's not always this, like, romantic ending. It's like, oh, and it was such a perfect thing. It's like, you know, people, like, fall face down multiple times, myself included. I have, like, smashed into the ground. But it was never, ever a choice for me. And I. I never chose to be in a position where I'm constantly testing myself. It's just the way my mind works. And it's been, at moments, like, anxiety inducing, but overall it's been, like, hugely. It's made my life a huge adventure, which I don't know how it could be any other way. [00:33:50] Speaker A: Yeah, that's same for me. That's. Yeah, there's definitely anxiety. Not everything goes smooth. Right. But it. You. Nothing goes smooth anyway. Right. There's always stuff going on. Right. That you're. That you're always trying to figure out and address. And I think once you commit to it and you commit all in and you approach it in the right way, you know, with the right moral and ethical approach, and you've got. And you stay fast to that, then for me, it's worked out after that. [00:34:23] Speaker B: So let's go a little bit into the space of developing people, because you have historically built really great teams underneath you, and those teams have built like great professionals in there. I've noticed that a lot of people who have been involved in sports at a high level, like at a significant level, so they have, like, a really tight connection to having a coach and a team. They tend to be leaders who are really, really good at building great teams and great leaders. Any thoughts on that? Like that connection to the high level of sport you played and then how you built teams? [00:35:03] Speaker A: I think the way I look at it from a work perspective, I don't know how well it relates to sport, but the way I've always looked at it, and it kind of puts you in a precarious position to some extent, is I'm trying to coach people up to take my job, and I want them to be successful at it. So I'm not sure you really do that in sport per se, because you don't see that same behavior, I think, to the same extent, but that mindset has served me well, and I think it's just the right thing to do for people. So giving people the opportunities, exposing them as much as possible to what you see, and stretching them to take on those types of assignments that will put them in a position to be recognized by the organization for the strong work they do. If you started at the top, it filters down through the rest of the organization, and you set that expectation, and I think you end up with the right types of mindsets and the right types of behaviors that, again, lead to the ultimate winning that you're trying to achieve. So that's really how I've approached it. I'm not sure I took a whole lot out of sport. Again, when I was in sport, I was very much at a highly competitive level. I was very much the type A personality, and I was trying to outwork everybody. And I had a different kind of mindset to it. Whereas as I've become more into this leadership role, it's not about me anymore. It's about what can I do for everybody else. And I didn't have that mindset when I was competing. So I think I'VE morphed quite a bit in my thinking from a leadership perspective and how I think about that. [00:36:56] Speaker B: So how have you managed? Like, one of the things you'd said earlier on was like, hey, you know, you just like, got it. You only go around once. You got to put your effort into everything. But that's not the way everybody looks at work. Like, so some people are just like, hey, listen, I work here, but it's like, you're not my, like, my team isn't my family. Some, you know, corporation owns this. It's like, there's some product here. I'm just here to like, basically do a good enough job. So you mentioned earlier, it's like teams are made up of all different kinds of people. Like, you know, cultures, different personalities. There's also different work styles where some people are literally just there to do. Do a pretty good job. How do you manage that from, like a team building? Because again, it's like you've built some really, like, really good teams underneath you. So what's your approach on that one? [00:37:46] Speaker A: You have to meet people where they're at is the first thing. And I get it. You know, there's. People want that balance. And I think it comes back to my personality is I want to be as impactful as I can. And as I said, not everybody has the same mentality, and that doesn't mean that they don't add value. So again, you want to meet people where they're at and then you want to try and inspire them. So, yeah, it may not be to the same intensity and extent as what I do, and that's okay. But if you can inspire people and you can set a vision for people, you can bring people along that journey. And if you can find the things, like, people put a lot of time and effort into their work. They spend a lot of time in that office and they're going to put in a lot of hours. So for me, I want to make it enjoyable for them. I want to. I want them to want to come to work. And when they come to work, I want them to want to work. And for me, it's about creating the environment to allow that to flourish. And really that's all you can do, right? So, yeah, you got to manage your low performers and you got to manage people who are disruptive to the organization. But beyond that, I think what I found is people want to do stuff that's going to have an impact. People don't want to come to work and do a bad job. People don't want to come to work with a bad attitude and don't want to get, you know, I haven't really found that to be the case. I found it more that if you can create that good team environment, create that good innovation culture, create that vision of where you're trying to get to, people become more and more engaged even than they may have originally thought or desired they wanted to be. And if you can set a good example, I think by and large most people respond well to that. And then you end up with a, with a pretty good outcome in the end. [00:39:39] Speaker B: Yeah, listen, man, I totally agree with you. Whenever there's a new generation, it's like, oh, Gen Z, look, millennials, people have this whole big reaction to. It's like, I don't know, man. If you're just a good leader and you build a good culture and you're really connected to. I like what you started with. Meet people where they're at and be like, hey, this is the thing we're doing and I want you on board. How do we get there? I think that's rather than having this whole, like song and dance about how each generation is this like ultra complex problem that we can't possibly solve. Like, people at their core want to do something meaningful. And whether it's creating medical devices or like working in a paper bag factory, meeting people where they're at and inspiring them to bring their best into, into each day by helping them feel like, hey, like, let's do this thing together. And whether that's great, like create a great team culture or whether it's like hit a sales target or is it to innovate whatever it is, I think there's, I don't think there's an industry out there that you can't have some level of direct impact and inspiring people. [00:40:48] Speaker A: And that's, that's, that's a lot of my job right right now is, is trying to help people see the vision and trying to help people get excited about by it. And in my world, when we do new product launches and people can see the impact, then, you know, and you celebrate that and you recognize that and then you start backing it up with, hey, here's the next wave of innovations. You could be part of that type of a story with this product and get people working on it. It becomes a cycle, right? And it just gets faster and faster and the energy builds from there. So, yeah, that's fully agree with you. And that's been my experience is the better you can set up the culture, the better you can define the vision. A lot of the, those types of things that you hear about with, with problems with different generations are different, this and that and people being disengaged. I think a lot of it disappears. [00:41:45] Speaker B: I just think it's corny man. Like, you know, in every industry there's, there's trends and everything. In the industry I'm in, it's always like, how do we manage this next generation? Who are, they're so different than everyone else. Like, I don't know, like human beings, Human beings are different from person to person, generation, generation. But there's those like hard through lines of like complete similarities and like there's a way that I think you can't go wrong. If you look at it from like a hierarchy of needs, perspective. Four things matter to people in the work world. Four hard things. The first is, the first number one thing is their relationship with their boss. And I don't mean they like their boss, their boss is their buddy. It's just is their boss help them grow, stretch, inspire them, help them like, like change their scope of the world. Is their boss invested in them? And I don't even mean monetarily like, like they get them training or something, that their boss is invested in helping them grow and, and develop as an individual. Like you'd said earlier, like, you know, like do they get the spotlight? Do they do these things? If someone has a great boss, you could lead them through. It almost doesn't matter what kind of the industry it is. That's the number one indicator. Number two is their connection to their team. And again, it's not that they're buddy buddies with their teams and they go out and have drinks. Whether or not the team they're on enables them to do the best work they've ever done. You have strong peer to peer connections. Do you have strong peer to peer coaching? Do people challenge each other effectively? Are you like, I like the rowing example. Are we all pulling together here? Is it us trying to compete with maybe not even another business, but try and create, get our product to the consumer faster in a better way. Like does your work, your team help you do the best work you've ever done? Third thing is whether or not they actually like their job. And people always kind of like laugh when I say that one. Like how can that be so low down there? Because not every job on surface level seems as cool as every other job. And some of them might, might be and might not be. But what you do mat like the actual fabric of your job, like what your tasks are In a day. People care, but they don't care as much as the first two. And the last thing that is the indicator of whether or not people are like give all in their role is how much they get paid, their benefits, their work life balance. And it's funny that that's the one that people like always think is first. Like, how much do I get paid? I know people who work for an amazing boss, have a great team and maybe don't particularly love every part of their job and actually probably don't get paid that well, who have a lot of satisfaction with what, with what they do. It's because they're like in the mix with doing something with people who are great and you get that right combination for people. And very few people have the perfect job where all four of those things light up. But if you get three of them or even two solid ones, it's a, it's a difference maker. [00:44:31] Speaker A: Yep, yep, that makes sense. [00:44:34] Speaker B: Before we go into innovation, which is something that I, I gotta hit on with you, something that you know well is the more senior level you get, it kind of taps out at a point where you have less direct control over things and you have to manage more from like an influence space. And also the more senior level you get, you have to deal with a lot more mediocrity. So like when you're at like a more junior level, it's like kind of just like point and shoot. You're like, you know, going back to like you're in the lab with the catheter and doing that. But the more senior level you get, you've got like higher level politics. People have conflicting agendas. There's less direct ability to make something happen. And of course, the more senior level you get, you start becoming like management in the mind of the people. It's like them, the corporate people or the C suite or this or that. So what's that been like for you in your journey? Because again, you're just someone who doesn't suffer mediocrity. So how have you managed that? Have you gotten a more senior. [00:45:33] Speaker A: I know I'm not, but I still feel like I'm still a project manager in a lot of ways. Right. So I still want to, you know, for me, again, a lot of it is about trying to remove the roadblocks. I mean, that's a lot of what the challenge people have, right? Can they, can they do their job effectively is there's roadblocks in their way. And trying to remove the roadblocks is the most important piece of it. And, and then as you said, a lot of it is an influencing role. So you know, I have the R and D function, functional responsibility, but R and D on its own can't do a project. A project is a cross functional effort and it takes invariably nearly every function in the company is involved at some point or other and R and D generally has the responsibility for project execution. So, so then you end up having to do quite a bit of influence and the only way it works in an effective way is through effective communication. So trying to come down heavy from the top just destroys an organization. So it's really taking that little bit of extra time to explain the why, to explain the rationale and then ask them for the answer. So you know, I don't have all the answers. I'm never going to have the answers now. Right. Because now that now you're at such a senior level, you're so far removed from the detail and the details are so spread out cross functionally that you can be aware of the problem. You can describe the problem, you can describe the end state, but the mechanics of how to really fix it. Now you have to know where your where, where your role ends and where what you can do. And then it becomes an influencing type conversation and it's an engagement conversation. You know, what can we do to make this work? Because we're all trying to get to the same end point and help us find the answer. And I think when you take it that way then you get a much better response as opposed to this has to get done, here's the end point and coming down in a dictatorial fashion. Just, it doesn't work. And the tendency is because there's so many issues to solve, there's so many deadlines to be met that you, you know, people will shortchange that effort or be curt. Right. Or be more direct than is necessary. Right. But be, you can be directive without being dictatorial. Right. So it's, it's trying to be clear on where you're trying to get to but engage the organization in getting there and then do what you can to remove the hurdles that are there. And the politics I find don't come from a bad place. Right. They come from competing priorities. So it's not that somebody, I don't find so much political games, I just find that there's competing resources and everyone's trying to get to the same end point. And it's like, well, how do we solve it? Right? We all, we all want to get to the same point here. What's the right way to solve it? And again, just going in with an open mind and an open perspective and see it from the other side. And I think the more you look at it from the other side, the better perspective you always get. So it's, you do have to lift yourself out of one seat and put yourself in the other seat and take a different perspective on it. And then, you know, once you're in there, you can, you can usually find your way through it as well. So. And then when people don't like the answers, you know, you got to provide the context, right? So it doesn't always work out. There's invariably, I don't want to say loser, but you know, it doesn't. There's competing priorities and you have to go in a particular direction. And I think being clear on the outcome and why the outcome was decided and closing the loop on that part. Again, people may not like it, but if they understand it, they can tolerate it, right? And understand the perspective and understand how the company's working. [00:49:42] Speaker B: So I like what you said about politics there, where like they, they typically don't come bad place. And like, you know, one of the things I hear about politics a lot where, you know, people like politics are so crappy. It's like, are you kidding me? Like, you ever done a road trip with your friends? Like, you know, like a multi day road trip, like you're, you're entering into politics. You ever have a neighbor who you have to figure out like recycling with? Like, you should forget about it. Human beings by nature, like, the idea of like politics, it's like there's the cartoonish thought that does exist where people are just like kind of these like nasty people who are out for themselves. That does exist in like smaller spaces. But human beings trying to figure anything out is going to inevitably have things to do with like, how do people get things done? What are power dynamics? One of the biggest learning things for me was like, try going on tour with your band for two months, like, and being in the same van with like five other people. Forget about it. It's like total like politics and power dynamics. And like, why do we go to this restaurant to eat? Why did we stay at that person's house? Like, and the more that I think of people can just be like, hey, typically no one's coming from an initial bad place, but we're not always getting the good solutions. And that has a lot to do with like weird power dynamics and how we like problem solve together. Whenever someone says to me, it's like, I'm not political in the workspace. I always kind of chuckle because even just saying that is a very political thing because you're trying to position yourself in a certain way. Instead, I just be like, hey, people are trying to come. Everyone's trying to figure it out together. It's going to get political. And if we don't get aggressive or defensive, but just be like, how do we get to the best solution and stick to it and recognize this is part of it, that's the fray, that's the competition, and it should be the best idea is going to come out of it. But it just takes people being dedicated, not throwing up their hands. [00:51:35] Speaker A: The downside, right, is it takes time, right? So then, you know, teams want to move fast, and then this happens, right? And then it ends up being conversations, right? And then it feels like it's slow. And I think that's it. That's true in every organization I've seen. You know, and for me, now, I'm trying to, how do I make that better? How do I make that faster? You know, what can I do different to try to. To cut through this in a quicker way? So I think that's been one of the things that I've been trying to wrap my head around. [00:52:07] Speaker B: Yeah. All right, man, let's go into what am I. I can't wait to talk to you about this. So I. Something that I always chuckle at is when people say that use the word strategy, or if they use, like, empathy, it's like, you know, it's just like, I just want to be strategic. And I'm like, okay, so what does strategy mean to you? Or like, empathy? It's like, all right, what does empathy actually mean? There are these words that people use that are like good business words or good leadership words that kind of make people feel good when they use them. But then you ask a few questions, and you're going to realize, do they actually know what they're talking about versus do they not know what they're talking about? So innovation to, like, the common person, innovation sounds like, oh, I want to be innovative. But what does from your perspective, innovation actually mean within the realm that you operate in? [00:52:59] Speaker A: Yeah. So for me, innovation is how I try to build a culture within. Within all of my teams. And it's. It's really about getting out to the customers, understanding what their problems are, spending time with them, get intimate with it through observational research, through questioning, through going to conferences, reading literature. That's where it all starts. And what you get out of that then is you start to understand it from the customer perspective, what their challenges are, what their problems are. And then you got to focus on what is that unmet need and how can we solve that unmet need. And it takes a bit of a grind at the start to get people understanding how to do this process well. But what happens as a result of it is you end up with this really exciting project that the team is going to get to work on. And right from the get go, the team knows it's an exciting project and the impact that has on the culture. Because once you have an R and D team working on it and then they bring it into a full project team, now you've got all the cross functional groups working on this exciting project and then when you commercialize that project now you've got the entire marketing and commercial organization getting the opportunity to sell that product and the impact it has on customers and on patients. And they get excited about the product and then they're like, well, what's the next one coming? So if you can get that innovation engine up and running and you get people engaged in that process up front, it just generates this wave of exciting ideas that you get to work on which turns into exciting projects which stimulates the entire organization all the way through to sales. And then you start building that credibility within the organization with the customers. And then everybody's waiting like what's coming out next? What's the next thing you guys are going to bring? And you start feeling like you're really having that impact. You're really changing how that market is developing and for us, how the practice of dentistry is going to develop and to be able to see that coming to fruition here. We just had our DS World event last week and we had some big product launches, our Prime Scan 2 and Xmart Pro Plus. And the reaction from the people at the conference, from ds, they were excited by it and the energy in the place was just incredible. And everybody that's coming back from there is sharing all that energy with the teams. And now we're coming, now we're getting the innovation with the next wave of stuff coming. So for me, innovation is the most fun activity you can do because it stimulates the entire organization. And then the ultimate impact at the end of all of that is you grow the organization, you start having that top line impact and then everybody gets to benefit from the impacts of that as well. So um, it's really the way to, to grow a company and, and to get energized and get bought into the vision and the strategy and, and it all starts with getting that upfront work done. Right. From the innovation perspective. [00:56:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I, I know how much you love it just based on our, our relationship and talking about it, but also like when you talk about it like your old, like how you talk, your physical presence, it's just like, boom, you light up hard. Let's break it down even like to the most basic level, just for the audience. What is innovation? How would you describe it in the most basic terms? In terms of health technology, it's solving. [00:56:42] Speaker A: A problem better than it's ever been solved before. So basically it's something that's new to world, that addresses an unmet need, that addresses a problem in the market that nobody else has been able to solve. And they may not have been able to solve it because they didn't define it correctly, they solved it in a different way. But it's coming with something that's brand new, that's never existed before, and it's meeting a need in a way that's better than it's ever been met before. And if you do that, then that's where the success comes from. And it's success for everyone. It's success for everyone in the company. It's success for the dentist, it's success for the patient. And it just, it's a win, win, win all the way around. When you do it right, is there. [00:57:37] Speaker B: A piece of technology that you could point to that would be like, for like lay people, like that would be like, here's like for your average technology person or for the, for the average user of normal people, technology, here's an example of what something would be a very innovative product. [00:57:54] Speaker A: So within dentistry, you might be familiar, do you ever get a dental impression where they put that kind of thing in your mouth and you bite down on it? And that's been around forever. And still over half the dental practices that you would go to would still have you do a dental impression. So there's a new technology space, an intraoral scanner that's been out for a while and it's like a wand and you can put it in your mouth and you can scan the inside of the mouth and it gives you, it gives you what the dental impression would give. And the product we just launched, the Prime Scan 2, the way these products work is they're basically in office based. So you would take the scan, it goes to the laptop, and then if you need to do treatment planning or diagnosis planning, you can do it, you know, within, on Premise on that, on that laptop. [00:58:49] Speaker B: That sounds insane, man. Like, that's like the craziest because I have such clear memories of like biting down on those things to make impressions. That's nuts. All right, so innovation, I know you love it. I know it's like part of what gets you up in the morning. It's exciting. It also sounds like it could go awry, like pretty easily. So, like, what's the connection between discipline and innovation? [00:59:14] Speaker A: Yeah, so I always think of it kind of like a delicate flower almost. Right. Because nobody has time. Right. So everybody's so busy. There's always so much going on that it's hard to make time for innovation. And I found that in multiple times that I've deployed. This is people don't feel like they have time to do it. And as soon as you stop making time to do it, your pipeline dries up. And then people are just doing minor iterations to current projects so they still fill up their time doing project work. But now it's not the exciting, impactful, high value projects because the front end innovation work hasn't been carried out. So you have to make space and you have to force it to some extent. And say one day a month we're going to have our Innovation Council meeting and we need everybody coming in with their ideas. And here's the process for that you need to follow and we'll give the training, et cetera. But you create the space in the organization and you ensure that the leadership attend the meeting. So if people know the leadership are prioritizing it and are going to be there, then they're going to put some effort into it. And you don't need everybody in the organization innovating, but you need the people who have that type of tendency and that desire and that interest to be given space to come forward in a safe way with their ideas. Because not every idea is going to be a good idea, but you want them to feel comfortable that they can bring the idea forward and that it's being brought forward in a way that's got structure and organization to it. So you can evaluate it. Because sometimes what you'll find is people have ideas, but the idea is something that's been around for a long time, but nobody's ever killed it and nobody's ever moved it forward. And it kind of sits in people's brains and either you kill it or you move it forward. And making the decision frees up the mental capacity to go to the next innovation piece. So a lot of it is about and the Reason I say it's like a flower is because if people come in with the idea and you, like, shoot it down hard, right? Nobody else is going to come with ideas. They don't want to be in that environment. If you don't get the senior leadership to consistently attend and people are like, well, they don't care about it, so why should I care about it? I've got other things to do. So then it dies. If you don't have good training around the process and reinforce the training on a regular basis, people don't know how to do it. So then you don't get the good ideas coming through, through in the right way, and people aren't evaluating them, it dies again. So there's a lot of ways for this thing to die, and if you don't constantly nourish and flourish with it, it'll die also. So it has to be a very dedicated effort, sustained effort, because it doesn't start off super strong, but it gets stronger and stronger the more time and energy you put into it, the more dedication you give to it. [01:02:23] Speaker B: That's good. That's a. That was a very, very, very good description. Okay, man. So as we're heading towards the end of the interview, I'm going to take you into what we call the crucial three, which is three questions that scale up in difficulty as we go. But before we do that, anything you want to shout out, anything you want to mention, any questions you want to ask me, anything at all? [01:02:47] Speaker A: No, I think you've been pretty thorough going through my career and my life and my perspective, so I'm good. [01:02:56] Speaker B: Okay. All right. So starting with the crucial three. So remember, they're going to start getting harder and harder and harder as. As we go up. Question number one. What is one thing now that you've gotten into this role? And, you know, like you said, like, two years ago, you couldn't have guessed that you were going to be in this role. Now you're in this role. Super interesting company. Real big challenge. What's one thing that you recognized, worked, was, worked well for you in your last role that you recognize now that you have to switch to match the challenge of this role? [01:03:31] Speaker A: And if that's the easy question, then I'm in trouble with the next three, the next two. So I think the big change is really the stakeholders that I'm working with. So in my. In my previous role is much more of a technical role, and now I've got a lot more different stakeholders, from the board of directors to the peers on the Management committee. And it's really taking the time to be, to explain, you know, the current state and the desired future state and how we get there and what needs to happen. And like we talked about earlier, it's not so much the politics, but it's the sharing of information in an effective way and communicating in an effective way with different types of stakeholders in order to get to the outcome that you're trying to get to. [01:04:25] Speaker B: Okay, what is one time it could be personal or professional. What's one time where you took a leap and you fell hard on your face and you, and you can give whatever level of detail you want. What's one time where you totally ate it? And what is the thing, what's the thing that you learned from that that helped you continue to be successful? [01:04:51] Speaker A: So, so I think the biggest challenge I had is wanting to please everybody and wanting to deliver the projects on time. And then, you know, you push so hard that you kind of leave. So it was early on in my career, but it was the, it was pushing too hard on people in order to try and deliver an outcome and not doing it the right way. And it's, it was, it was kind of that transition period. I was talking about going from that type A and trying to be, trying to do it all myself. And then as I was transitioning I was still type A and I was trying to get everyone else to be type A, to drive in that direction. And it didn't, it didn't work. I didn't have, it wasn't the right management style to get the right level of engagement. And, and it's, you know, you got to learn from it. Right? So, so what, so then how do you adapt your style to make it work for other people? And then it was, it's the learning from that. And you know, you're going to have things that don't work and you're going to have things that you don't do right. And it's really about being able to have the humility to admit you did it wrong and then have the courage to make a change and try and do something better moving forward. So if you, if you don't have the self awareness and the humility to accept that you're doing stuff wrong and that you have to change, then I think you're going to be in trouble. So, so for me it's always been about trying to learn every step along the way. But probably the, the biggest fail I feel like I had was that early on in my career as I was really trying to make that transition from being an individual contributor into being more of a leader was trying to modulate my style in order to be effective. [01:06:58] Speaker B: All right, Something that I know about you is you have no problem, like, giving a spotlight to other people and talking about where other people are. Great. Like, you will super clearly point out lots of positive things about other people. And also I think in a healthy way, in an appropriate way, you can also point out gaps in teams or how people are approaching a problem. But something that I have found you're not as comfortable with. If I ever said, hey, man, toot your own horn and tell me something great that you did, you get real uncomfortable about it. And I like that humbleness. But so much of our conversation has been about making an impact and, like, you know, creating a change. And again, it was a very. It's a very kind of, like, you approach to say, like, I want to make a difference, but also because you are actually a very humble person, you're like, oh, but I don't want to sound like corny about it in areas I do it. So I am going to ask you to toot your own horn. And that's why it's the last question, because I know it's one of the hardest things for you to do. What is one thing that you've been involved in or one piece of feedback that you have gotten from? It could be from a report or it could be from, like, an end user of technology. What's one piece of feedback or one clearly identifiable thing where you could say, I made a huge impact here? [01:08:24] Speaker A: Yeah, you were right. The questions get tougher, dude. [01:08:29] Speaker B: I knew. I knew from the first. As soon as you said, I don't want to sound like all up in the air about making a change, I knew I was going to hit you with this. [01:08:40] Speaker A: My. The role I had in Peripheral Intervention in bd, where I took on the VP of R and D role, that was a tough role to walk into for me. So I was coming from a director level in Medtronic, and I moved into the VP of R D role, and there was some politics that were involved about the person that was supposed to be in the role and how it all had transitioned and they'd been without a leader for a number of months. And then there had been a culture challenge there as well, where it wasn't quite where it needed to be. And going in there, there was great people again, but the culture was just not where it needed to be. And some of the leadership were more than challenging to work with. And when I look back, you know, when I. By the time I left that group and even today, you know, I'm still close with the number of people there. It's such a high performing business and the team are so high performing and it's a team effort. Right. And it's not just the R and D function. There was a lot of people involved in the leadership team. But when I look at the quality of work from the RD team and how high performing that R and D team is, I think I had some say in it. And I like to think that I left it better than I found it. And that, you know, we talked about earlier, you know, you want to be able to promote people to a point where you do yourself out of a job. And I think that was accomplished there. When I look at the R and D leader there, they're phenomenal at what they do and it was credit to that person and their growth. But also I feel good that I was able to be part of that journey as well. And then the team under them is fantastic as well. And the team under them is fantastic. So it's just been really good to see how strong that team performed, how much they developed and then ultimately the staying power after I left that it continued to develop, continue to get better. You know that that's really rewarding to see that team and how good they perform. [01:10:53] Speaker B: Heck yeah, man. I appreciate it. I know that wasn't easy. And as someone who's been able to walk a small part of that journey with you, like, totally legit. What a great team, great people involved and comes from great leadership. All right, man, so that's it. We have. We've come to the end. Anything you want to share as we're closing off? Anything you want to put out there? And of course, we'll put all the company info in the episode bio, but anything else that you want to put out there? [01:11:20] Speaker A: No, I mean, the only thing I'll say is that I wouldn't be where I am today either without your support. Right. So you and your team, as we went through that journey with the last example I gave, we wouldn't. None of that would have happened either without you and your involvement and your team's involvement. I know for me personally, in terms of my style and my communication style, my leadership style and the way you've been able to give me feedback over time has been very practical and very applied and I really appreciate the style of coaching that you guys provide and it's really been transformational for me and my career, so thank you for that. [01:12:04] Speaker B: Heck, yeah, man. I appreciate it. And working with you has always been such an honor. And to be able to walk with someone who is making that level of impact. All right, everyone. You know, this is also, like, a great, fun conversation. It's just a little personal because Kevin and I have known each other for so long. I hope you got as much out of it as I did. Just even, like, I don't know, man. You're into a cool new thing now. I'm super, super excited for you. So with that, everyone, we will see you next time. My name is Aram Arslanian, and this is one step beyond.