Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Hey everyone, welcome to the episode. So ask a Ram flips the script one step beyond podcast. Guests and listeners submit their questions and ask a Ram anything. Questions can be music, life stories, business, leadership, advice, how to make the best vegan omelet, you name it. A Ram will unpack your questions and leave you with info you can apply way before we get to it. Please rate, review and subscribe.
[00:00:29] Speaker B: This is Paul Miller from Precision Record pressing, and this is my question for Aram, running an independent punk hardcore label. I'd imagine that gives you a pretty strong ability to develop and maintain principles, whether they're ethical or political. So my question is, how do you think about the art of compromise as you're entering into a broader corporate environment?
[00:00:58] Speaker C: Paul, great question.
[00:01:00] Speaker D: Before I get to it, awesome to meet you in person, and thank you.
[00:01:03] Speaker C: So much for being on the show.
[00:01:05] Speaker D: So, to answer your question, I compromise.
[00:01:09] Speaker C: Way more than I did when I ran a record label.
[00:01:13] Speaker D: It's made me a much, much more.
[00:01:15] Speaker C: Successful business person, and it's also made me more successful at my relationships. So I'll unpack that for you. When I was running a record label, and I ran like three record labels.
[00:01:27] Speaker D: I ran Anchor Records, react Records, and then little known, little used UXO Records, I did not compromise at all.
[00:01:35] Speaker C: And in fact, I kind of viewed.
[00:01:37] Speaker D: The process of putting out someone's record.
[00:01:40] Speaker C: Not like this is your record that I was putting out.
[00:01:43] Speaker D: I always kind of viewed it as.
[00:01:44] Speaker C: Like, it's our record we're putting out.
[00:01:48] Speaker D: You write the music, you write the lyrics you recorded and all that. But the packaging, I'm not just going to have some band present me their packaging. And if we're going to add something into it, like, let's say we add in stickers or we add in some kind of writing or something like that.
[00:02:06] Speaker C: I'm going to be super involved in that. And my compromise during my record labels was ultra Low, which made them less.
[00:02:14] Speaker D: Successful records because I wasn't able to work with a generalized population of lots of different bands. I was working with a very specific.
[00:02:23] Speaker C: Bands that I had a specific kind of relationship with.
[00:02:26] Speaker D: And also it made me less successful with the relationships where you had to be really willing to partner with someone.
[00:02:33] Speaker C: That is as firm in his beliefs as I am.
[00:02:38] Speaker D: We are pulling from a really small pool of people who are going to buy our records and we're selling to.
[00:02:42] Speaker C: A very small audience.
[00:02:43] Speaker D: I couldn't really do too much for a band on any of my record labels. Yeah, we could go and sell a couple of thousand records, but I wasn't going to be able to take them to super national levels or do any of those things.
[00:02:54] Speaker C: So I could totally stick to exactly.
[00:02:57] Speaker D: What I wanted to when I was doing those records.
[00:03:00] Speaker C: And there was a level of success.
[00:03:02] Speaker D: Whether or not it was super helpful.
[00:03:04] Speaker C: For the bands, I don't know.
[00:03:05] Speaker D: Like if they were willing to work with a record label who was willing.
[00:03:08] Speaker C: To compromise more, they probably could have had bigger records. When it comes to the company, I'm super willing to compromise.
[00:03:16] Speaker D: In punk and hardcore, I know exactly.
[00:03:18] Speaker C: What I like, I know exactly what I believe.
[00:03:21] Speaker D: I know exactly what I want to represent, what kinds of bands, what kind of sounds, what kind of ideals.
[00:03:26] Speaker C: Working in the business world, it's not.
[00:03:29] Speaker D: As black and white as that. It really has to do with like.
[00:03:32] Speaker C: I know what I can offer, I.
[00:03:33] Speaker D: Know what our company can do for.
[00:03:35] Speaker C: People and how we can help people is way, way broader. So I have to compromise a ton.
[00:03:40] Speaker D: I compromise on approach, I compromise on who we're going to talk to or to compromise on how we're going to talk to them. I compromise on the subject matter. What I don't compromise on is the nature of what our offerings are. And I don't compromise very often on price point.
[00:03:55] Speaker C: Price point I'm pretty sticky about where I won't compromise is I won't work with anyone if I don't think we.
[00:04:02] Speaker D: Can make a difference. And what I mean by making a difference is that we are increasing empowerment. We're helping create stronger leaders, we're creating stronger culture, we're helping people communicate more. If someone wants us to come in and do a training and coaching and.
[00:04:18] Speaker C: It'S just like kind of check the box. No, I'm not doing that. But most other things, there's a lot.
[00:04:26] Speaker D: Of leeway where I'm willing to work.
[00:04:27] Speaker C: With people and it means that I.
[00:04:29] Speaker D: Have way stronger relationships with people.
It's less combative. When I was running a record label.
[00:04:38] Speaker C: I think it's very helpful for our clients, it's very helpful for us.
[00:04:41] Speaker D: So by being able to compromise and do it in a way where it's like I can still stick to my morals, we're not going to do anything unless we think it's going to make a real difference. But there's a lot of compromise.
[00:04:50] Speaker C: Outside of that, we're able to help.
[00:04:52] Speaker D: More people, we're able to work with more clients, we're able to make a.
[00:04:54] Speaker C: Bigger impact and we're able to do.
[00:04:57] Speaker D: Things on a much bigger level and.
[00:05:00] Speaker C: Continuing to scale up level our company has grown exponentially in the past number of years.
[00:05:05] Speaker D: And the heart of that is, yeah, I know exactly what I want to.
[00:05:08] Speaker C: Believe, and I'm going to stick to that.
[00:05:09] Speaker D: But I'm willing to compromise a ton.
[00:05:11] Speaker C: Of things around that. It's the liberty of being in a punk record label or a punk band.
[00:05:16] Speaker D: Where I can really stick to my.
[00:05:18] Speaker C: Guns, and that's cool. I want to do that.
[00:05:22] Speaker D: And it was super awesome to be able to be in that space. I could look back and also have, hey, there's some minor regrets and some.
[00:05:28] Speaker C: Very big regrets, but when I can.
[00:05:31] Speaker D: Really stick to my guns from the.
[00:05:32] Speaker C: Punk and hardcore space, awesome.
[00:05:34] Speaker D: Because I totally know the landscape, I know what I'm offering, I know what it sounds like, I know what the political positions are, all of that kind.
[00:05:40] Speaker C: Of stuff that I'm coming from.
What I'm doing now is a company that has the ability to make much bigger level, actual, real deal change and.
[00:05:50] Speaker D: Really, really improve working conditions for people and people's base abilities to enjoy their.
[00:05:55] Speaker C: Job, be good leaders, communicate. I take that super seriously, and that.
[00:05:59] Speaker D: Means I need to be able to compromise. The story is not about me. The story is not about what do I think the story is about what.
[00:06:05] Speaker C: Can the company do?
[00:06:06] Speaker D: What can our company do?
[00:06:07] Speaker C: That means there's got to be a lot more voices involved. So I don't know, someone could look.
[00:06:12] Speaker D: At that and be like, oh, man, you're selling out.
[00:06:14] Speaker C: I don't know.
[00:06:14] Speaker D: You should like, hop into my seat and try and run a company that's like working on a global perspective. And I think you'd probably be eating shit pretty fast if you tried to.
[00:06:22] Speaker C: Just stick to your guns entirely and not change.
[00:06:24] Speaker D: From my perspective, I think compromising and working with people and really, really listening and pushing yourself is not just part of the human experience or even smart business. It's part of actually being useful and doing good things.
[00:06:37] Speaker C: So with that, yeah, compromise is the.
[00:06:39] Speaker D: Heart of most things we do.
[00:06:41] Speaker C: We don't compromise what we do, but.
[00:06:44] Speaker D: There'S a lot of other stuff you.
[00:06:45] Speaker C: Make real shifts with.
[00:06:48] Speaker B: I've been vegan for about ten years, vegetarian for a long time before that, and it was recently Rosh Hashanah, which is New Year's for the jewish people. And I decided for the first time to make a cultural exception. I actually tore away at Chala, which is bread that has eggs as an ingredient. So I wanted to know, do you have any similar exceptions that are cultural or otherwise?
[00:07:21] Speaker C: Yes, I have exceptions.
[00:07:24] Speaker D: I don't do anything culturally like anything that has to do with my culture in terms of exceptions around veganism. But what I do have is I have the don't ask, don't tell when I'm traveling.
[00:07:35] Speaker C: So sometimes I'm kind of like at.
[00:07:37] Speaker D: An airport or I'm somewhere where I don't speak the language that's on the.
[00:07:42] Speaker C: Packaging, or I'm in a restaurant where.
[00:07:45] Speaker D: There is some kind of barrier around the communication. And in those places, it's just really a don't ask, don't tell. I'll just do my best and kind.
[00:07:52] Speaker C: Of assume hopefully, that everything will be vegan.
[00:07:56] Speaker D: So, yeah, if I'm going to be totally honest, I think that's an exception.
[00:07:59] Speaker C: On my end around straight edge, I.
[00:08:00] Speaker D: Don'T do anything that's an exception. And that has a lot to do.
[00:08:03] Speaker C: With not even whether or not I.
[00:08:06] Speaker D: Think that's a big deal for people, but more so, it just has to do with my own background with substance abuse and knowing that I don't want.
[00:08:14] Speaker C: To even roll the dice in that kind of thing. I want to go a little deeper, though, on your question. Things like veganism, straight edge, like whatever.
[00:08:23] Speaker D: Discipline that people have. And I'm talking about things that are quite often considered part of the punk world. Well, specifically straight edge. But veganism can be connected to that. I really encourage people to consider, like, if you're dedicated to something like straight edge or veganism or vegetarianism or whatever.
[00:08:40] Speaker C: Pursuit, also recognizing there's just the nuance.
[00:08:44] Speaker D: Of being a human being in the world. So, Paul, what you just mentioned is.
[00:08:47] Speaker C: Like a cultural exception, man, that's awesome.
[00:08:49] Speaker D: Good for you.
[00:08:50] Speaker C: I think that's cool that you could give yourself that kind of liberty and.
[00:08:55] Speaker D: Someone might be listening from a compassion perspective for veganism, where it would just.
[00:08:59] Speaker C: Be like, well, no, you shouldn't do that. Well, okay, that's cool for you, for Paul, for you specifically.
[00:09:05] Speaker D: I think a compassion part of it is also being connected to your culture and your people in the moment and all that.
[00:09:11] Speaker C: And life isn't like black and white.
[00:09:13] Speaker D: And always got these clear yes or no things. The older I get, the more I'm.
[00:09:17] Speaker C: Like, damn, life is so complex.
[00:09:20] Speaker D: I think it's really good to give.
[00:09:22] Speaker C: Yourself the opportunity to flex with some of your most profound beliefs. If it's doing something that is good.
[00:09:31] Speaker D: For you and good for other people.
[00:09:33] Speaker C: And creates very little harm for great benefit. And for something like this, it's like, yeah, you have a really good reason for doing it. For anyone who might have a hard take on it, let me know where.
[00:09:48] Speaker D: I'm wrong in the comments. What you think.
[00:09:50] Speaker E: How do you deal with colleagues who are bad at answering their emails?
[00:09:53] Speaker C: It depends on the impact.
[00:09:56] Speaker D: If the impact of them not answering.
[00:09:58] Speaker C: Emails is serious to your day to.
[00:10:01] Speaker D: Day you have to have a head on conversation.
[00:10:04] Speaker C: If it's minor and it has minor impact, you're better to let it go. Think about communications as being like normal.
[00:10:12] Speaker D: Communications, high value communications, and high stakes communications.
[00:10:16] Speaker C: So normal communications are when people have.
[00:10:20] Speaker D: Normed to each other's styles. So everybody has preferences, just ways they.
[00:10:24] Speaker C: Prefer to be, and then they have.
[00:10:26] Speaker D: Things that are more authentic to them. So things that they've learned how to do that they've kind of made their.
[00:10:30] Speaker C: Own, but that take effort. So anything that's authentic should take effort. That might sound a little bit off.
[00:10:35] Speaker D: To you, and if it sounds off to you, you should go back and listen to our other content where I talk about preference and authenticity. Preference is natural. It's just the thing that you lean into. Authenticity takes effort, something you have to flex on, but you've made it your own. When we're in normal communication, everybody is.
[00:10:50] Speaker C: Normed to each other's style. So you're mostly in the preference space. And that just means that people are.
[00:10:57] Speaker D: Able to work with each other's preferences.
[00:10:59] Speaker C: In a way that's pretty normal.
[00:11:01] Speaker D: High value is when there's a situation, and it could be because you're working with cross functional people, people that you.
[00:11:08] Speaker C: Spend a lot of time with or.
[00:11:10] Speaker D: The people that you work with normally, but there is something high value going on.
[00:11:14] Speaker C: So something super important in those spaces.
[00:11:17] Speaker D: You're moving more into the authenticity space.
[00:11:19] Speaker C: Where it's like it's not your preference, it takes some effort, but you are.
[00:11:23] Speaker D: Putting more effort into it because you're.
[00:11:24] Speaker C: Either trying to give great value or.
[00:11:26] Speaker D: Get great value or exchange value, or it's high stakes.
[00:11:29] Speaker C: And the way that I talk about.
[00:11:30] Speaker D: High stakes communication is there's something to win or lose. So you're either going to have something good happen as a result or you're going to lose something.
[00:11:37] Speaker C: And in those spaces it's like you.
[00:11:39] Speaker D: Got to be your most like tucked in and really focused on it. So if I'm working with someone and.
[00:11:44] Speaker C: They are non responsive to email and it's not a big deal and I've normed to their style, so it's like.
[00:11:53] Speaker D: Hey, I know it's normal for them, it's non responsive. In our company, we have best practice that you should get back to an email in a certain amount of time.
[00:11:59] Speaker C: And we mostly stick to that.
[00:12:01] Speaker D: But if someone doesn't get back to an email and it's not that big.
[00:12:03] Speaker C: A deal, just from like a normal communication point of view, I don't have to make a big deal about it.
[00:12:08] Speaker D: I can choose to make a big deal about it.
[00:12:11] Speaker C: But I would say for people it's like why stress about it if it's not that big a deal, but if.
[00:12:16] Speaker D: It'S something high value where, let's say we've normed to each other's style, but it's something where I need a lot.
[00:12:21] Speaker C: Of value from someone, then yeah, I'll.
[00:12:23] Speaker D: Talk to them about it and if I want, I can just set a deadline for them, be like, hey, I need a response to this by end.
[00:12:28] Speaker C: Of day, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, I expect someone that I work with and we should expect this, that if.
[00:12:34] Speaker D: We give them a timeline and we say, hey, this is important, this is.
[00:12:37] Speaker C: Like a high value situation, they're going.
[00:12:39] Speaker D: To respond, but you got to be explicit about it.
[00:12:41] Speaker C: If you know their style is to.
[00:12:43] Speaker D: Be a little bit more relaxed about.
[00:12:45] Speaker C: Email timelines, then you should, as a.
[00:12:47] Speaker D: Good work partner or as a good boss, you should say, hey, I need.
[00:12:49] Speaker C: This by this time. You can even be more explicit and.
[00:12:52] Speaker D: Say like, hey, this is really high value. I need this by this time on this day.
[00:12:57] Speaker C: And you can be very precise about it. If you're going to be a great.
[00:13:01] Speaker D: Work partner or someone and they are a little bit more relaxed about their.
[00:13:04] Speaker C: Email style, don't try and rewrite their.
[00:13:08] Speaker D: Life history and make them be a certain way.
[00:13:10] Speaker C: If in general it doesn't impact you.
[00:13:12] Speaker D: Just make sure that you let them know when it matters and when it.
[00:13:15] Speaker C: Doesn'T, you could say, well, I shouldn't have to do that.
Well, yeah, but then you're going to.
[00:13:20] Speaker D: Spend your whole life trying to force everyone to be a certain way that works for you. Just let people know when it matters.
[00:13:25] Speaker C: And when it doesn't, it's no big deal. The final piece, though, high stakes.
[00:13:30] Speaker D: If something's high stakes, the people that you're working with better know. And either they should know because they're involved in your world, they understand something.
[00:13:37] Speaker C: High stakes is going on, or you let them know. And letting them know doesn't mean like.
[00:13:42] Speaker D: Pressing the panic button and putting a.
[00:13:44] Speaker C: Bunch of pressure on people.
[00:13:46] Speaker D: It's letting people know that when there's something high stakes going on that you're setting clear expectations. You're explaining it as far as you need to so they understand it's high.
[00:13:54] Speaker C: Stakes and you have the communication. In a perfect world, people would respond in a timely manner to emails and everyone would do all the things they're supposed to do. But people don't do that because people have a lot of stress in their lives.
[00:14:07] Speaker D: There's a whole bunch of stuff they're focusing on. The Internet is overwhelming. Instagram is like constantly telling them that everyone's better than them, and all of these wild things are happening on Twitter. The world is in chaos.
[00:14:18] Speaker C: It's like a really intense time.
[00:14:20] Speaker D: I assume people don't want to be on their phones in front of their.
[00:14:23] Speaker C: Email all the time. So what I encourage people is if.
[00:14:26] Speaker D: You have someone who's a little bit more chill about email than you are, and you want things done at a.
[00:14:30] Speaker C: Timeline that they're not keeping to, you.
[00:14:32] Speaker D: Know, when it's normal, so it doesn't.
[00:14:34] Speaker C: Really matter, just leave it alone. It's not a big deal.
[00:14:37] Speaker D: Let them be a person in the.
[00:14:38] Speaker C: World that's going through some challenges right.
[00:14:41] Speaker D: Now, but when it's high value, let.
[00:14:43] Speaker C: Them know it's high value and give them the appropriate timelines. But when it's high stakes, don't make it a nasty surprise for them.
[00:14:50] Speaker D: Let them know what the situation is. Don't be passive aggressive about it. Explain yourself and how important it is very clearly and set expectations day to day. I would love if people did everything without having to be asked. Of course I would, but that's not the real world. So let's be real about it. Be proactive, be communicative with people and don't be passive aggressive and take things personally.
[00:15:11] Speaker C: Just be real.
[00:15:13] Speaker E: You've just sent an email that's full of mistakes in the wrong tone, has errors. What do you do?
[00:15:20] Speaker D: Address it immediately and take accountability for.
[00:15:22] Speaker C: It without over explaining. So let me give you some strategies here.
[00:15:27] Speaker D: So first, some email programs have a.
[00:15:29] Speaker C: Recall function, right now. Recall that email immediately.
[00:15:32] Speaker D: That doesn't mean that someone didn't see.
[00:15:34] Speaker C: That email, but if they saw it, it's no big deal.
[00:15:37] Speaker D: If it doesn't have a recall function, then you send out a follow up email right away.
[00:15:41] Speaker C: What I would encourage people to do is call whoever you sent the email to.
[00:15:47] Speaker D: So if it's like one person, just.
[00:15:48] Speaker C: Call them right away and try and deal with it person to person.
[00:15:53] Speaker D: If you don't have that ability for whatever reason, or if you emailed a whole bunch of people, send an email immediately. The email should be very short and.
[00:16:01] Speaker C: Simply say that email was sent in error.
[00:16:04] Speaker D: My apologies on that.
[00:16:05] Speaker C: I'm totally accountable for it.
[00:16:07] Speaker D: I'm going to be following up shortly.
[00:16:09] Speaker C: With x, y, and z.
[00:16:10] Speaker D: So, like the next email, and if there's no follow up item, just say.
[00:16:13] Speaker C: Apologize for it and that's it.
[00:16:15] Speaker D: If you over explain in that email, not only is it going to be super cringey for the people reading it, they're also going to have, like a piece of thing that they're always like an email that will live in their.
[00:16:25] Speaker C: Inbox forever because nobody's deleting that. When you screw up an email, as.
[00:16:29] Speaker D: We all do, and I can mean.
[00:16:31] Speaker C: Like major screw up to totally minor screw up, if we make a meal out of it.
[00:16:37] Speaker D: Your answer? That email that you send is going.
[00:16:39] Speaker C: To stay in someone's inbox forever.
[00:16:41] Speaker D: If you don't take accountability, it's going to stay in somebody's inbox forever. Writing sucks because people can keep a.
[00:16:48] Speaker C: Piece of writing forever, so it just.
[00:16:49] Speaker D: Means you should be really thoughtful about it.
[00:16:51] Speaker C: But the times you screw up, address it immediately.
[00:16:54] Speaker D: Apologize, take accountability, and cut it short after that. And if you feel you need to have a follow up conversation afterwards, have.
[00:16:59] Speaker C: A follow up conversation as a kind of sidebar.
[00:17:03] Speaker D: I was working with someone on something very, very sensitive. So it was someone that I had.
[00:17:07] Speaker C: Hired to do some work for me.
[00:17:09] Speaker D: And so they had a bunch of.
[00:17:11] Speaker C: Information that was very, very sensitive, and.
[00:17:14] Speaker D: They were working with multiple clients. So it's not someone who was working for Cadence, someone who's doing something for my personal life.
[00:17:20] Speaker C: And they kept sending me someone else's.
[00:17:24] Speaker D: Personal information and did it multiple times and would recall the email and then.
[00:17:27] Speaker C: Send me the response.
[00:17:29] Speaker D: And the first time that they sent.
[00:17:30] Speaker C: The response or they did that, they.
[00:17:33] Speaker D: Recalled the email, and then they sent me their apology.
[00:17:35] Speaker C: It was like, I apologize with total accountability to it. I'm very sorry.
[00:17:40] Speaker D: And just like the accountability piece, and.
[00:17:42] Speaker C: That was the end of it. I didn't think twice about it. I mean, it's crazy.
[00:17:45] Speaker D: They sent me someone else's information at the same time. I recognized this person deals with a.
[00:17:49] Speaker C: Lot of sensitive stuff, but where it.
[00:17:51] Speaker D: Got interesting is they did it actually multiple times. And so they probably sent me about four or five emails over a period.
[00:17:57] Speaker C: Of like six or seven months where.
[00:17:59] Speaker D: They did the same thing, and then they sent the exact same email.
[00:18:02] Speaker C: And what I realized, it was just.
[00:18:03] Speaker D: A copy and paste because this person was screwing up so much in their emails.
[00:18:07] Speaker C: So here's the thing.
[00:18:08] Speaker D: If you do it one time, a.
[00:18:10] Speaker C: Nice short email where you apologize, you.
[00:18:13] Speaker D: Take accountability and that's the end of it.
[00:18:14] Speaker C: That's great.
[00:18:17] Speaker D: If you're doing the same thing over.
[00:18:18] Speaker C: And over again, don't cut and paste.
[00:18:21] Speaker D: And do the same thing because you're going to be impacting your relationship with your audience. Writing is super wild because you're constantly building, breaking down, or maintaining a relationship with your audience. And people psychologically take writing so seriously, even if they don't realize they do it. There's always some kind of relationship you have to your audience. So if you've made the same mistake multiple times, and especially if it's a.
[00:18:43] Speaker C: Serious mistake, do not cut and paste.
[00:18:46] Speaker D: The same apology and taking accountability, call someone and talk to them about it and have the conversation. Take writing seriously because it's totally seriously.
[00:18:55] Speaker C: At the same time, people screw up. Address it right away, take care of it, move on.
[00:19:00] Speaker E: How would you handle a colleague who's emailing you at inappropriate hours, like over the weekend or at night, things like that.
[00:19:07] Speaker D: If it's an emergency situation and it requires emergency response, then it's all hands on deck. If it's not an emergency situation or if it's a continued pattern of behavior.
[00:19:17] Speaker C: Address it with the person. Sometimes there's just a situation where that.
[00:19:21] Speaker D: Happens on a Friday at 05:00 or a Friday at 07:00 and it is like an emergency or something urgent or maybe something urgent to that person that.
[00:19:30] Speaker C: Doesn'T seem urgent to you and they either need you or think they need you in those spaces.
[00:19:36] Speaker D: As a good colleague, if you can, you should be responsive. You should respond right away. Usually better if you just give someone a call rather than hammering back and forth emails, or else you're just going to probably be caught in a cascade of emails. What I'd suggest is give that person.
[00:19:49] Speaker C: A call and it might be an.
[00:19:51] Speaker D: Emergency, it might be urgent, or it might seem urgent to them. And what I mean by urgent to them is maybe all they need is a touch point with someone to help them understand. It's like, oh, it's actually not as.
[00:20:02] Speaker C: Urgent as I thought. What I'd really encourage you to not.
[00:20:05] Speaker D: Do is start sending passive aggressive emails or ignoring them. Or if you're in a situation where you can't respond, you should let them know that you can't respond, why you can't respond, and when you will be able to respond.
[00:20:17] Speaker C: So it really might be an emergency and you'd understand it.
[00:20:19] Speaker D: It really might be urgent and you'd.
[00:20:21] Speaker C: Understand it, or it might be neither.
[00:20:22] Speaker D: Of those things, but it seems like that to them.
[00:20:26] Speaker C: Get on the phone if possible, or.
[00:20:29] Speaker D: At least let them know when you're going to respond.
[00:20:32] Speaker C: My deepest urging is to not be passive aggressive about it.
[00:20:35] Speaker D: Email lasts forever and it's the place where I see most relationship issues start to form. Is an email, or get much worse is from email. If it's a continued pattern of behavior where this is happening a lot, you got to hit it head on. And there's kind of two ways you got to consider it.
[00:20:51] Speaker C: So let's say it's your boss. Like, are you really going to be.
[00:20:54] Speaker D: Able to tell your boss, stop emailing.
[00:20:56] Speaker C: Me at three in the morning?
Yes, you are. But of course there's going to be.
[00:21:01] Speaker D: Some people here who are like, really, dude, can I?
[00:21:04] Speaker C: It's up to you. Here's what I'd say.
[00:21:06] Speaker D: Should your boss be emailing you at three or four in the morning? Hell no. Absolutely not. Definitely not.
[00:21:09] Speaker C: It's a terrible work habit.
[00:21:11] Speaker D: When you get an email repeatedly from people at three in the morning, you're obviously going to be thinking, what is going on with them? Why are they up at three in the morning?
[00:21:18] Speaker C: So if someone's sending you emails at.
[00:21:21] Speaker D: Four in the morning, you're obviously thinking.
[00:21:22] Speaker C: Well, what's going on for this person? Can you tell your boss to stop doing it? I would encourage people to first ask their colleagues about it.
[00:21:31] Speaker D: The next thing that I'd encourage you to consider is, what's the history with.
[00:21:35] Speaker C: This boss getting difficult feedback they might not like? Some bosses, they like getting feedback like that. They're like, oh, I didn't realize I.
[00:21:44] Speaker D: Was doing it, or, oh, my gosh, thank you.
[00:21:47] Speaker C: It can open up a space of.
[00:21:48] Speaker D: Vulnerability for them to talk about it and be like, oh, gosh, I am feeling very anxious. So if people have a good history.
[00:21:54] Speaker C: Of being able to talk about stuff.
[00:21:56] Speaker D: And get feedback, yeah, you should go.
[00:21:57] Speaker C: Give it to them. But after kind of thinking about it.
[00:22:00] Speaker D: Does my boss have a good history of or doesn't have a good history.
[00:22:04] Speaker C: Of taking feedback and actually either doubles.
[00:22:06] Speaker D: Down on the behavior or blows you off or actually becomes aggressive as a.
[00:22:10] Speaker C: Result, then no, you should not tell your boss that.
[00:22:12] Speaker D: But what you should do is you.
[00:22:14] Speaker C: Should consult with your HR team.
[00:22:15] Speaker D: A lot of companies have super good.
[00:22:17] Speaker C: HR teams and HR teams are ultra useful.
[00:22:21] Speaker D: And I kind of feel like HR.
[00:22:23] Speaker C: Can get, like, a bad rap in companies. HR is there to help. That's their purpose.
[00:22:29] Speaker D: And if you're someone who thinks that maybe your company has a bad HR team, I don't know. How well have you gotten to know them. Have you really had the right kinds of conversations with them?
[00:22:36] Speaker C: I think there's a lot of things.
[00:22:39] Speaker D: Before the idea, oh, our HR team isn't good. I encourage you, if your boss is doing that, go talk to your HR team and there's a bunch of stuff that can happen.
[00:22:46] Speaker C: There could be a 360, there can be a survey put out where it.
[00:22:50] Speaker D: Gives people a chance to give anonymous feedback. A lot of things can happen so.
[00:22:54] Speaker C: That your boss can get the feedback. Even an HR partner can be like.
[00:22:59] Speaker D: They could be the person who gives the boss feedback in a gentle way that keeps things anonymous and allows the conversation to go the right way. So if it's your boss who's emailing you at like three in the morning or at these wild times and is.
[00:23:09] Speaker C: Doing it consistently, unless they're good with.
[00:23:12] Speaker D: Taking feedback, I would be very hesitant to say anything to your boss about it. And I have seen that go sideways.
[00:23:17] Speaker C: For people a lot of times now. Let's say it's your colleague. It could be a peer or it could be someone more junior than you who's doing it. If it's a peer, you should go.
[00:23:26] Speaker D: And have the conversation with them and.
[00:23:28] Speaker C: You should do it in the absolute coolest of ways. What I'd encourage is ask them in.
[00:23:34] Speaker D: Advance through writing and be like, hey, I've noticed you've been sending me a.
[00:23:37] Speaker C: Lot of emails at night.
[00:23:38] Speaker D: Just want to check in with you on that.
[00:23:39] Speaker C: Could we have a conversation on it?
[00:23:41] Speaker D: Let them know that the conversation is incoming in advance.
[00:23:45] Speaker C: You might wonder why you're going to do it in writing. Part of it is so that they.
[00:23:49] Speaker D: Have something that they can consider beforehand. The other part is, yeah, you're tracking it. You're making sure that something's tracked so that it doesn't become some kind of OD.
[00:23:57] Speaker C: Like if it goes sideways, you've got a record of what you're doing when.
[00:24:01] Speaker D: You meet with the person and they've had a chance to think about in advance. The likelihood that they're going to get defensive is reduced because you're not surprising them with a conversation. Most people are very open to having challenging conversations as long as they're not surprised by it. Because when you surprise someone with a challenging conversation, they're trying to digest what you just said while also managing their.
[00:24:23] Speaker C: Reaction to what they've just said. I don't know about you, but me, when I get tough feedback, I get.
[00:24:28] Speaker D: Defensive right away and I feel bad.
[00:24:30] Speaker C: I get that spike of like, I.
[00:24:32] Speaker D: Need to defend myself and they're wrong.
[00:24:34] Speaker C: And after, like, I don't know, two.
[00:24:35] Speaker D: Minutes or five minutes or ten minutes or 20 minutes or an hour, I'm like, oh yeah, that was good feedback. And they're right and it was good they did that.
[00:24:42] Speaker C: Or maybe I'm like, actually that feedback isn't good, but now I'm able to talk about it. But imagine trying to digest feedback that.
[00:24:49] Speaker D: You'Re finding a little threatening or you're upset with, or it's making you feel defensive while actually trying to talk to the person who just gave you the feedback and get into the solution space. It's not a great experience for anyone, so give it to them in advance.
[00:25:01] Speaker C: I encourage you to do it through.
[00:25:02] Speaker D: Writing in the coolest way possible, in the least formal.
[00:25:05] Speaker C: Like, don't be like, I would urgently.
[00:25:09] Speaker D: Like to discuss with you your email practices. If you do that, forget about it. You're setting things off in the wrong direction.
[00:25:15] Speaker C: You could be like, hey, I noticed.
[00:25:16] Speaker D: You'Ve been sending a lot of emails at night or on the weekend.
[00:25:19] Speaker C: Did you want to check with you on it? Great, go have that conversation.
[00:25:23] Speaker D: Or you could just do it conversationally and be like, hey, I have been noticed this. I did want to check in with you that you've been doing that. Could we meet later on today to discuss?
[00:25:31] Speaker C: Great, that's totally fine. Most people will either explain why they're doing it and from there you can help them kind of get into a.
[00:25:40] Speaker D: Better space with it, or maybe they'll.
[00:25:42] Speaker C: Help you get into a better space with it. Some people are just going to be.
[00:25:45] Speaker D: Jerks about it and they're going to double and triple down about it. And from there you can make your decision whether or not you ignore their emails or set up some boundaries, that's a different conversation.
[00:25:53] Speaker C: But start with having the conversation. If it is someone who's a subordinate, either of you or other people, if.
[00:26:00] Speaker D: It'S of you, do the same thing. Send them an email about it and then say, hey.
[00:26:04] Speaker C: Or talk to them about it and.
[00:26:05] Speaker D: Say, hey, let's have this conversation. Then go and have the conversation, but.
[00:26:09] Speaker C: Give them time to be ready for it. If it's someone else's subordinate, talk to their leader first out of respect. Let them know what's going on and ask them how they'd like you to handle it.
[00:26:20] Speaker D: And it could be like, I'm very happy to have the conversation, but you let me know what you'd like unless you want to do it.
[00:26:25] Speaker C: Or we could do it together.
[00:26:27] Speaker D: I always prefer that someone just go and have the conversation with the other person. It seems less formal, it seems less punitive, all of that kind of stuff.
[00:26:33] Speaker C: We want to avoid any punitive damage.
At the end of the day, email is like the best because there's so.
[00:26:41] Speaker D: Much cool stuff that happens through email, so much connection, so much information exchange. But it is the worst. There's so many bad habits, there's so.
[00:26:49] Speaker C: Many missteps, there's so many mistakes. So much beef comes from email, really. At the end of the day, just.
[00:26:55] Speaker D: Be real about your email. Let people know what you need. Be communicative, be smart. If your boss is someone who's going.
[00:27:01] Speaker C: To be super reactive, no, don't try.
[00:27:03] Speaker D: And have that conversation with them. But also don't just eat that shit. Go and talk to someone about it.
[00:27:07] Speaker C: Who'S going to help you solve it.
[00:27:09] Speaker D: You shouldn't have to fend off emails at 330 in the morning from anyone.
[00:27:13] Speaker C: At the same time, if there's an urgency, it's a different game.
[00:27:17] Speaker D: So you got to treat it like any kind of live exercise and really meet people where they're at and have the right conversations so the right stuff happens.
[00:27:24] Speaker E: Do you have any funny stories from the early days of email?
[00:27:27] Speaker D: Yes, I do have a funny story.
[00:27:30] Speaker C: About the early days of email.
[00:27:32] Speaker D: Nobody cares about what a good writer.
[00:27:34] Speaker C: You are and how well you can pontificate on your ideas. Let me explain.
[00:27:40] Speaker D: When I was a young therapist, I.
[00:27:42] Speaker C: Used to send these like ultra long.
[00:27:46] Speaker D: I call them brick emails.
[00:27:47] Speaker C: Like, I would send these ultra long.
[00:27:50] Speaker D: Emails and be citing these papers and inspiring, and I'd have like a Gandhi quote at the end.
I would fall in love with my own creation and I would take forever.
[00:28:03] Speaker C: Writing these emails and nobody would respond.
[00:28:07] Speaker D: So these are the early days of emails where you're not getting like a ton of emails. So even think, like, maybe people at that time were getting like ten emails.
[00:28:14] Speaker C: In a day and nobody's responding to my emails.
[00:28:17] Speaker D: And not only was nobody responding to my emails, I'd ask people about my.
[00:28:20] Speaker C: Emails and they'd be like, oh, I didn't even read it. And one day, and I was getting like, deeply offended, like, how dare you?
[00:28:28] Speaker D: And one day I asked my boss.
[00:28:30] Speaker C: I was like, how come nobody's reading my emails? And he was like, dude, your emails suck.
[00:28:36] Speaker D: He's like, nobody wants to spend the time reading them.
[00:28:39] Speaker C: I was like, what do you mean? He's like, I could just feel you.
[00:28:43] Speaker D: Enjoying your own intellectual flex through your own email and it's just a huge turn off. It was like the amount of time you spent writing that, you could have written like 15 emails. You probably could have had three phone calls. Nobody cares how smart you are. Nobody cares how well you can put together a sentence, how dramatic, how inspiring. People just want the information and they just want it in a really usable and easy way. You don't send good emails because your emails are about you.
[00:29:10] Speaker C: They're not about your audience.
[00:29:12] Speaker D: This is like early days of email. And I was like, oh.
[00:29:16] Speaker C: And of course I was like, oh, this person's wrong. And I had to learn the hard.
[00:29:21] Speaker D: Way that writing is such a wild thing because you can have a personal.
[00:29:25] Speaker C: Relationship with people, you can have a professional relationship with people, but you can.
[00:29:30] Speaker D: Also have a writing relationship with people.
[00:29:32] Speaker C: And if you're someone who consistently sends massive, super clogged emails that are hard.
[00:29:39] Speaker D: To read, people go into scan mode.
[00:29:41] Speaker C: They've got tons of attachments.
[00:29:43] Speaker D: You're forming a type of relationship where no one's going to read your email or very, very few people, and if.
[00:29:49] Speaker C: They read it, they're going to instantly go into scan mode.
[00:29:52] Speaker D: So the old days of email, people used to write in a much more formal style where there's tons of structure.
[00:29:58] Speaker C: And they were long and they were bulky. And I was a victim of someone.
[00:30:03] Speaker D: Who came up basically when the transition.
[00:30:05] Speaker C: From writing things like on paper or.
[00:30:09] Speaker D: In inner office memos, where they're typed.
[00:30:10] Speaker C: Out into being on the Internet, and I didn't know how to flex that.
[00:30:13] Speaker D: I also just got caught up in the wonderful idea that everything I think needs to be in an email and had to really be challenged on that. So email is an evolving practice as a society. We haven't caught up with our communication style, hasn't caught up with the speed that communication is evolving.
[00:30:33] Speaker C: The thing I got to encourage anyone here, first of all, whatever mistake you've made, I have made 10,000 times over.
[00:30:41] Speaker D: The reason I started this company and.
[00:30:43] Speaker C: The reason it's been able to grow.
[00:30:45] Speaker D: And build is because most of the things that we teach from a communication space are things that I've eaten shit.
[00:30:50] Speaker C: On a million times.
[00:30:51] Speaker D: And in fact, I was so bad.
[00:30:53] Speaker C: At it, including my writing, I had.
[00:30:55] Speaker D: To build my own system to get good at because nobody was teaching me.
[00:30:59] Speaker C: How to do it.
[00:31:00] Speaker D: I was just getting tons of bad feedback.
[00:31:02] Speaker C: Like, you suck at this, you're not good at this. But there was no books out, there.
[00:31:06] Speaker D: Was no YouTube at the time. There was no email courses.
[00:31:09] Speaker C: So I basically was like, well, how.
[00:31:11] Speaker D: Do I do this better? I created my own system and I.
[00:31:13] Speaker C: Did it and then I trained myself so I was able to parlay that into a company. So whatever bad feedback you've gotten, I.
[00:31:20] Speaker D: Have probably made that mistake 8000 times.
[00:31:23] Speaker C: But here's the thing. What are you going to do about it? I'm sorry.
[00:31:27] Speaker D: Nobody cares about how, well, how masterfully you can write a paragraph, or how.
[00:31:32] Speaker C: Deeply you can explain things. They care about how you can talk about things to them, but they don't.
[00:31:38] Speaker D: Want you to write long. They want you to write short and precise.
[00:31:41] Speaker C: And the easiest way to think about it. If your email is more than three.
[00:31:45] Speaker D: Paragraphs, the likelihood that it's being read line for line is very, very short. If you're writing in sentences that are more than 22 words of length, the likelihood that people are digesting your whole.
[00:31:56] Speaker C: Sentence is very, very short. If you're adding a ton of attachments, they're probably not ever even going to be opened. The best way to do things, write short, keep to the facts, keep it super sparse, very, very targeted, and do most things over the phone or in person, or over zoom.
[00:32:14] Speaker D: Communication is best done when you've got the space and time to explore things.
[00:32:19] Speaker C: And really get into ideas outside of that.
[00:32:22] Speaker D: In a written format like email, it's.
[00:32:25] Speaker C: Best to keep it super tight, really, really fact based and easy to use. Think of the end user. Don't think of the artistic piece that you're putting together.
[00:32:36] Speaker A: We want to hear from you, our audience. To submit your questions, send us a message. Drop us a DM or a comment on our social channels.
