Mason Jenkins, Tattooer & Burlesque Performer

[00:00:00] Speaker A: I'd love to talk to Joe Rogan about trans rights, because Joe Rogan does multiple things to feel at home in his body. You know, I'm not an expert on Joe Rogan. I actually ignore him completely. But what I've placed on him is like, this person probably does some hormone replacement therapy, probably does testosterone, advertises, a lot of supplements, things like that. It's like, what's different about you, Mister Rogan, than like, any trans person taking hormone replacement therapy or doing things to feel at home in their body? It's like, I think we have more in common as people than we realize. We're all like, just trying to feel good about ourselves, right? Yeah. [00:00:35] Speaker B: That was a clip from today's guest. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the podcast. I was just joking around with Mike earlier. I was like, damn, I haven't done like a live podcast in a while. The last time we did one was we were in Berlin and there was donuts. And all I could think about was eating the donuts. And I had a great conversation. Mark, thank you. That was super cool. But the donuts prevailed. So today I'm like, no doughnuts, although we're going to have vegan street later on. And I'm super psyched about their carrot cake. So I'm excited about that. Today's interview is a cool one. You know, one of the things that I love about being able to talk to people on this podcast and hear people's stories is no matter how traditional or how kind of like old school of businesses or an industry is, there's always a new take on it. There's something that's developed, there's something that's grown. And so you can have something that's like, let's say an ancient art form like tattooing. But the people that are involved now, the people who are making their careers now, the people who are doing it now, they're writing a whole new chapter for it. So now, no matter how old something is, it's going to find a new life. And the people doing it today and today's guest is a great example of that. But before we get into it, please rate, review, and subscribe. And listen, if you're not subscribing, what are you doing? Come on, go with it. I need, we need you here. Come join us. So please do that. My name is Aram Arslanian, and this is one step beyond Mason. Welcome to the show. [00:02:19] Speaker A: Hello. [00:02:20] Speaker B: All right, so for the uninitiated, for those who don't know, who are you and what do you do? [00:02:25] Speaker A: Hi. My name is Mason Jenkins, and I am a tattoo artist in Calgary. But I do lots of things. Like, I do comedy, and I'm a burlesque performer. I play in a band. I just love attention, you know, it's very clear. [00:02:40] Speaker B: Well, here is some attention for you. [00:02:42] Speaker A: Thank God. Yes. And I'm also a transgender person. Yeah. Which I think is great. You can add, like, a little diversity. Bingo. Check. Mark. You know, finally. [00:02:51] Speaker B: Finally. [00:02:51] Speaker A: Feels good. You've been doing great. [00:02:53] Speaker B: Thank you. You've been doing great. Thank you. Thank you. Well, so when you're saying we've been doing great, one of the things that we've gotten good, like, useful feedback, is it's like, oh, you have, like, a lot of straight white men on the show. And that was kind of, like, early on, we were getting that feedback, and it was like, okay, great. Yeah, you're right. You know what's hard? Just randomly asking people to be on your podcast and, like, who are you? [00:03:18] Speaker A: Totally. It's very hard. And, like, when you're talking about things like leadership positions, like, you're looking at the problems of society, and you see that. Yeah, it's a lot of straight, cisgender white dudes in positions of power, because that's how society works. And then the tricky part is when you start asking, like, marginalized folks to do these things, you're like, hmm. Like, I have to. Like, we have to do, like, an exchange of power here, right? Where you're like, oh, maybe we're not in a position to, like, maybe we don't have the corporate sponsorships where you're like, I'd love to give this person thousands of dollars to be on the show, but you're like, I can't. So it's tricky. Right? [00:03:50] Speaker B: Like, literally perfectly said. [00:03:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:53] Speaker B: When we ask someone to be on the show, I don't want them to ever feel that we're just asking them so that, like, that we're not interested in them. [00:04:01] Speaker A: You're tokenizing them. [00:04:02] Speaker B: Yeah, we're tokenizing them. [00:04:03] Speaker A: Totally. [00:04:03] Speaker B: So there's this, like, you have to. And I think it's a good practice. You have to earn people's trust to want to be on the show. [00:04:11] Speaker A: Totally. [00:04:12] Speaker B: So that they. So that we can get to a place of greater representation. All of this to say thank you for being on the show. [00:04:19] Speaker A: I'm so happy to be here. And, yeah, I just love attention, so I am happy to be here. [00:04:23] Speaker B: Well, and also thanks to people who are giving us feedback, we want the show to be to be a great show, and it takes a lot of different feedback to get there. So appreciate it, and appreciate it. [00:04:35] Speaker A: You having and tokenizing that would be like, if you had someone on this show who's, like, a disabled black trans woman, and then you didn't let her talk, that'd be tokenizing. But if she is here and you just listen, then you're doing great. [00:04:48] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:04:48] Speaker A: Thank you. Said by me, a white man. That's. Yeah. Check mark of approval. [00:04:54] Speaker B: We're getting there. [00:04:55] Speaker A: We're getting there. [00:04:56] Speaker B: We're getting there. Um, all right, where do you want to start? What's the thing that you're most interested in talking about first? [00:05:03] Speaker A: Well, I did listen to my co workers, Sebastian Murray, at Blackbird Electric, and I think he talked great lengths about the tattooing industry. So, like, do you want to talk about burlesque a bit? [00:05:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:15] Speaker A: Okay. I know nothing. Let's do this. [00:05:18] Speaker B: Well, I have to tell you, like, burlesque has literally 0% ever been discussed on the show, so. [00:05:23] Speaker A: Perfect. [00:05:23] Speaker B: Let's hit it. [00:05:24] Speaker A: Let's hit it. [00:05:25] Speaker B: I don't even know if I understand what burlesque is. [00:05:27] Speaker A: Well, it can connect to tattooing. Maybe we can do both. But it's this idea of, like, you're sharing your body as art, right? And when you all have, like, sweet tattoos, isn't that kind of the same thing? You know, I guess it's like this. Reclaiming our bodies, owning our bodies, being proud of our bodies, maybe not doing things to our bodies in ways that, like, you know, puritanical people would be, like, giving us the thumbs up. Because I was raised, like, super christian, catholic, conservative, deep Calgary south. Right? And so things like taking off your clothes for money and getting tattoos, not on the hopes and dreams vision board. Right. But we are able to do things that make us feel at home in our bodies, or at least for some people, it's not for everybody. But isn't that, like, a cool thing? [00:06:17] Speaker B: Very cool. [00:06:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:19] Speaker B: So what is burlesque? [00:06:21] Speaker A: Oh, man. See, this is where I'm like, I don't know. My partner is an amazing burlesque performer, and I've learned so much from her, and she knows the history, like, the decolonization of burlesque, anti racism, and burlesque, all this stuff. And I'm just like, man, I just love taking off my clothes. So for me, now I can speak from my own personal right. No one can be upset at me for being like, hey, he's talking about his own experience for me, as a transgender person. I think about my body as, like, something that I've put a lot of time and effort into feeling at home in. So I'm like, if I've had all these surgeries funded by the government taxpayers, then I have to report back, right? Like, I am now public art. So of course I should take off my clothes for people because they've invested in me. Right. [00:07:18] Speaker B: That's a cool way of looking at it. No, I appreciate that you want to. [00:07:21] Speaker A: See your taxpayer money at work, you know, and I think that's a beautiful thing. [00:07:25] Speaker B: What would a burlesque performance that you would do? Like, I know, I guess it's like, take off your clothes, but, like, what would differentiate it from, like, a stripper experience? [00:07:35] Speaker A: Totally. Yeah. So I have friends that are strippers, and they very much tell anyone in the burlesque community, stop saying that you're strippers, because you're not. And I'm like, got it. Great, good. So I can't speak to that experience too much. But for burlesque, I can even maybe speak to it more as, like, what's the difference between, like, drag and burlesque? Cause there's, like, drag less where, like, drag performers will take off their clothes. Burlesque is more specifically about performing to music, taking off your clothes in a creative way, you're not lip syncing, and there's, like, an element of tease, seduction, tension, and playfulness. It's often more clownish than people expect. And I always like to immediately cover my tracks there by being like, we're not clowns. You know, I joke about my performances are very, like, I just feel like a slutty clown. And then people get worried because people are scared of clowns, which. Totally fine. I don't look like a clown, but there's, like, an element of, like, gag and playfulness. Satire often, which I think is. Is really fun for people. Yeah, yeah. [00:08:38] Speaker B: It's interesting. You said, like, kind of the clownish aspect. I had always thought burlesque was a little bit adjacent to comedy, except with, like, more of a sexual tension involved with it. [00:08:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Give people what they want. Right. [00:08:51] Speaker B: To any burlesque puritans here, I have no idea what I'm talking about. [00:08:55] Speaker A: Same. [00:08:56] Speaker B: So how long you've been doing that? [00:08:58] Speaker A: It's been two. Two years now. Yeah. [00:09:02] Speaker B: Did you get into that just simply as, like, oh, you know, with my partner having fun with it, or was there more of a, like, hey, this is about, like, really feeling, like, at home in my body and putting my body in display as a part of kind of like reclaiming that part of myself. [00:09:17] Speaker A: I think it all kind of happened together in this beautiful way. As a transgender person, I've been in relationships with women where I never felt like I was quite exactly what they wanted as a trans person. And that might have been completely in my own head, but it wasn't until I met my partner and my fiance. Her burlesque performer name is Belissima. I haven't felt, like, wanted and desired as myself authentically by another individual before and actually believing them and trusting them when they're like, I think you're attractive and hot. I'm like, I think I believe you. I think I do. Cool. So that kind of stepping into my own comfort in my body, but then also having this desire to push trans bodies into public more. There's another amazing performer, Carla Marks, in the city. She's a transgender woman, and seeing her do burlesque, I was like, yeah, I would also like to do this. So Carla Marx and her partner, bitch sassady, these are great burlesque performers in the city. They were doing some coaching. They wanted to come up with a magical Michaels group called the Jock Strips. And I was like, you gotta let me into this. And I totally weaseled my way in. Initially, I was not on the draft pick, but I was like, I'll design your logo. I'm gonna do all this. You just gotta let me try. And so the two of them let me try, and they're like, okay, we might have created a monster. So, yeah, I've just really been enjoying it, and it kind of came at a beautiful time. Like, I don't know your experience in music with COVID but just not being able to perform live in front of people, I had this weird moment where I was like, I thought I was a musician, but maybe I'm more of a performer because I love writing music, I love working with a band, but I think the carrot dangling at the end of the stick has always been sharing it with other people. So when that element was removed, I was like, well, now what? Right? So I found that burlesque has kind of been supplementary to being able to connect with audiences in a wider range, which I appreciate. I need it, you know? [00:11:30] Speaker B: So from a psychological perspective, and now I'm just asking you to take a leap based on what you think worked for you there. Finding that greater sense of connectivity to your own body, but also being able to really believe that your partner finds you desirable and, like, believe it. Believe it. [00:11:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:51] Speaker B: What was the connection between getting up on stage not to play music, but to entertain people with your body. [00:11:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I almost think maybe it's the same, but just less words and less having to haul my own gear. Yeah, it's interesting. Like, I think about my relationship with my partner and truly seeing my value and my worth and then also seeing that in audiences where there's not an intimate, long term, years long connection, it's very, like, quick flash in the pan, but having them approve and appreciate me in that moment, it's like this weird, roundabout way of, like, approaching transgender rights that I had not conceived of before where I'm like, you might have not, never seen. You might not never. You might have never seen a transgender person before, but now I'm going to do this silly dance for you, and you're going to love me. I'm like, maybe this is another route we can take. You know? Maybe we can appeal to, like, people's most animalistic senses and make allies, you know, who knows? [00:12:58] Speaker B: First of all, that's super cool. Second, I really like that idea where kind of straddling that space of, like, I like performing. Part of the way that I perform is through music and, you know, all the stuff associated with the band, but that idea of just being on stage. And I know you were joking earlier about loving attention, but there is something about that exchange with an audience that can be ultra therapeutic. Like, really therapeutic. And it doesn't necessarily have to do with, like, here are these lyrics I've written about this painful thing or this record I wrote during this difficult part. It can really, literally just be about being seen and being afraid to be seen, but doing it anyways. [00:13:41] Speaker A: Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah. I think about, like, if you or I were completely alone on, like, a deserted island and we were writing these songs or making this art, like, yeah, great. But, like, I don't know if, like, our humanity is ever, like, reflected back to us when it's just us in isolation, right? It's nice to have these things go out into the world, and then we see how people react and respond to it and, like, to me, I'm like, I don't know. I get full Pinocchio. I'm like, no, I'm a real boy. Cause you've seen this and you've witnessed it. It doesn't live in my head any longer. I don't know. [00:14:13] Speaker B: I'm gonna make a connection to tattooing here. Please. [00:14:16] Speaker A: Something I know slightly a bit more about. You're looking at two years experience in burlesque and, like, six years experience in tattooing. So I'm a complete baby in all aspects of life, but maybe that makes me approachable. I don't know. [00:14:31] Speaker B: I think it's super cool to be able to talk about, like, you know, you and I were talking about gatekeeping earlier. I think it's super cool to be. To talk about what you're excited about and also acknowledge your newness to it as well. [00:14:41] Speaker A: Right? Yeah, we all suck. [00:14:43] Speaker B: Go out there and suck, you know, do your thing. Let me make the connection. We'll go back to this. You talked about that, like, if we were on this desert island and we were writing these songs, just the two of us, and it's like, we're just gonna play these songs to each other and over and over again. It's like, without an audience, it could be not a hollow pursuit, but it might be losing some of that juice that's important for it. But tattooing, when you tattoo someone, when they walk out, you're not there to see how the world interacts with that. So where's the juice for you in that one? [00:15:18] Speaker A: Gosh, I think it's, like body reclamation. Just my own understanding of when I get a tattoo, it just makes me feel 100% more at home in my body. I think about if we're in this room and it was just white walls and white furniture, and it's kind of like your first apartment, you're like, oh, it's not really home. But then, like, you start putting up your show posters and your little trinkets and tchotchkes, and all of a sudden you're like, yeah, this is my home. And I think that our bodies can do that for us as well. So, yeah, I guess I just hope and pray that when those people leave, they're also, like, feeling at home in their body, and I can just be a bit of a facilitator in that. Bodily reclamation service. Body reconciliation services. Yeah, that kind of thing. [00:16:04] Speaker B: When Monica sent me the brief about our discussion for today, I saw that body reconciliation or body reclamation. I've never heard these terms before. [00:16:14] Speaker A: I think I made them up. [00:16:16] Speaker B: So tell. Well, because the way you just described it about, like, when you move into an apartment, and that's a great way to kind of unpack it, but I'd love to hear more about it, because I think it's, like, a pretty compelling idea. [00:16:30] Speaker A: Yeah. I think there's things that we do to ourselves that just make us feel more at home, and it's totally socially influenced. Right. Like, when I think about, like, my experience as a transgender person, I've had people ask, like, do you still think you'd be transgender if you were alone on this deserted island and there was no one there to inform you about what is masculine, what are societal roles, what are traditional gender roles? It's like, you know, probably not. You know, it's this idea of, like, how you relate to society and, like, what kind of rules are imparted on us. So, yeah, like, having these ideas about tattoo, a little bit taboo, a little bit rebellious, a little bit like you're taking a permanent snapshot of whatever you're enjoying in your life at that time. It is, like, a bit of a high risk kind of activity to commit to, like, whatever absurd or significant expression you want to put out there. So, yeah, I think it's this. I don't know. It's just a way for us to put our insides on our outsides, I guess. Yeah. [00:17:33] Speaker B: Because when I was reading the brief, I started just thinking about anything that people do to their bodies. Well, however we want to perceive this as healthy or unhealthy, but I was thinking about, let's say, people who are really invested in gym culture. [00:17:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:49] Speaker B: And I'm not giving, like, kind of a toxic or negative. Negative take. I'm just saying people who are really into being in shape and are actually trying to sculpt their body. I would never have thought of that, about being, like, body reconciliation or kind of like, body ownership, making something your own. But that really. That seems to be in line with that idea that you're putting forward. [00:18:10] Speaker A: Totally. Yeah. And I struggle with that a lot, too. Like, I really would like to look like Tom Hardy or whoever. Right. And you see these, like, celebrities and whatever, and then I'm like, wow, what part of that is, like, toxic masculinity or, like, beauty standards? But then it's still, you know, I can do this interior work, but then I'm still like, yeah, but I still want to look like that. You know? [00:18:34] Speaker B: The reason I'm asking about this is, like, if someone got a tattoo. [00:18:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:41] Speaker B: And I'm even saying if it was meaningful for them or even if it's a good tattoo. If someone got a tattoo, most people at this day and age wouldn't even blink about it. Like, maybe if they got in their face, they would, but, like, let's say they just got something on their forearm, nobody would even blink. But then, like, we talk about people getting, like, kind of jacked or sculpted, the conversation can kind of go, well, it's like, oh, if you do that, it's setting you're chasing an impossible standard and also presenting an impossible standard. I don't know if I agree with that. Like, I'm not saying that that doesn't exist, but I think a lot of people just want to feel proud of their bodies, whatever that means for them. [00:19:22] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:19:23] Speaker B: And one of the things I like a lot, and I was saying this to Carrie earlier today, was, like, I love the Internet in so many ways because it exposes you to so many ideas, and I hate the Internet for the exact same reason. [00:19:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:37] Speaker B: I think I was really compelled when I read this in the brief because it's like that idea of reconciling with our body or kind of claiming your body. I went down this whole rabbit hole of thought where I was like, yeah, I guess when you're born, you're not even thinking about your body. It's just like this thing that you're moving around in. [00:19:52] Speaker A: Meat sack, right? Yeah. [00:19:55] Speaker B: What did Carrie call it? She was like a biomechanical meat machine or something. [00:19:59] Speaker A: A beautiful brain my boss has. Yes. [00:20:03] Speaker B: But the way I started thinking about it more was, like, at some point, I became aware of my body and the things I like about it and the things I don't. And I think a lot of my life has been, like, reconciling how I feel about those things. And, you know, I come from a place of privilege where I'm a white male. I have had very little challenges with general reconciliation about it, but, like, the way I look, having, like, a big nose, being bald, like, these things. And if I struggle with those things, I can only imagine the different challenges people have. So this isn't a, like, let's pin on the right way of looking at it. It's just more like, when I thought of that, I was like, I guess a lot of people are just trying to make a connection with their body, to make it. Make. Make it feel like theirs, even though it is theirs. Cause they're in it. [00:20:56] Speaker A: Yeah. And there's all these, like, weird rules that, like, we can socially construct. Right? Like, you. Your words, not mine. You describe yourself as having a big nose. I think your nose is very. [00:21:05] Speaker B: Oh, I've got. [00:21:06] Speaker A: I got. [00:21:06] Speaker B: I got a big nose. [00:21:07] Speaker A: I think your nose is very handsome. [00:21:08] Speaker B: Oh, thank you. [00:21:09] Speaker A: But, yeah. Like, we could manipulate society so that, like, your nose becomes the ideal standard of beauty. Yeah. You know, and it's like, yeah, that just kind of blows your mind when you're, like, money's not real. Time's not real. Noses at least, like, hierarchy of noses. Not real. Yeah. [00:21:28] Speaker B: It kind of brings me to a thing that I've thought about. Basically, everything is nothing. Everything is everything. If one thing matters, everything matters. But kind of, in a lot of ways, a lot of things don't matter. Almost nothing matters. And it's just kind of where society decides to draw standards of beauties or morals or what's right or wrong or how one thing or versus another thing is defined. So it's like, again, why I love the Internet. It's like, you get exposed to so much stuff. But then what I don't like about the Internet is so many people are like, and this is the truth. It's like, I don't know if we could be saying what the truth is. [00:22:06] Speaker A: Nothing's real. Like, Jim Bros, as you were kind of mentioning before, they're chasing this beauty standard that they've created in their minds, and it's this reclamation of their body. And it's maybe not always what people would say is healthy. It is like, a bit of, like, are Jim Bros participating in third wave feminism where, like, we have, you know, Dolly Parton comes out with augmented breasts and everyone's like, shame, shame, shame. But then people are like, wait, this is feminism, right? Third wave feminism is happening. So it's like, Jim Bros, are they part of this third wave feminist movement that they're not aware of where they're reaching for these beauty standards that we might not think of as healthy or safe? [00:22:41] Speaker B: It's very interesting discussing it from, like, a. Oh, like, this is an interesting conversation. Let's get into it versus, like, now let's figure out who's right and who's wrong and who's good and bad. It's like, I don't know. That's, like, I understand why conversation goes there, because it's like, it's the same reason, you know, if you and I look up in the cloud, in the sky and we see clouds, very likely, very quickly, we're going to try and create structure out of those clouds. Like, create an image. Human beings are drawn to structure and, like, familiarity and defining things. So defining things along an axis of, like, good versus bad is totally understandable. [00:23:16] Speaker A: We love it. We love it, we love it. [00:23:18] Speaker B: It's so, like. Like, good and bad is such a tough thing where you could be like, well, this is inarguably bad. Yeah, I could say it's inarguably bad in, like, a vast majority of cases. And I bet you if you and I sat down and looked at something and really looked it, we could find some culture or some group or something where that thing is actually valued and works, works for them. And then we would be putting our judgment on that group of people that could be right or it could be wrong. It gets, it gets real easy if you're like arguing on the Internet, and it gets much more complex incredibly quickly if you're having a real conversation. [00:23:56] Speaker A: I'd love to talk to Joe Rogan about trans rights, because Joe Rogan does multiple things to feel at home in his body. You know, I'm not an expert on Joe Rogan. I actually ignore him completely. But what I've placed on him is like, this person probably does some hormone replacement therapy, probably does testosterone, advertises a lot of supplements, things like that. It's like, what's different about you, Mister Rogan, than like any trans person taking hormone replacement therapy or doing things to feel at home in their body? It's like, I think we have more in common as people than we realize. We're all just trying to feel good about ourselves. Right? [00:24:31] Speaker B: Yeah, but what you just said there is counter the narrative, and I don't want to say in generalities, but it's often counter the narrative where it's like, well, this is good, this is bad. So let's say someone who's a big Joe Rogan fan might be, well, that's okay because of the x, and this is why that's different and bad because of Y. It's like, I don't know. I think we're getting the spaces where we're like constantly parceling out what's good and who's good and bad based on three minute conversations. It's really difficult. And that's why a longer form format podcast like this one, why I do that because I actually want to have real conversations with people. Your willingness to talk about all this stuff is really cool, by the way. [00:25:11] Speaker A: Good. I mean, I definitely am making a lot of assumptions because, yeah, I don't listen or watch Joe Rogan. I'm just putting this on him. Just my knowledge from fear factor from grade six. That's all I'm applying here. [00:25:23] Speaker B: You know, a little bit about, you know, he does, he. He promotes nutritional stuff. [00:25:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:29] Speaker B: You know, he like, does whatever, whatever stuff for his body. So, you know, you know, enough to have like just the most surface level conversation. [00:25:35] Speaker A: I think he plays a character that tries to appeal to, like, young lost men, which is a group of people that tend to lean more transphobic for reasons I don't quite understand, when we're really like, all doing the same shit. [00:25:50] Speaker B: Can I ask you a question that's not intended to. It's not intended to argue against that. [00:25:55] Speaker A: Okay. [00:25:56] Speaker B: If anyone gets on any platform, aren't they courting some audience? [00:26:00] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yes. Yes. Yeah. We're all playing a character, aren't we? Isn't that a scary thing to think about? [00:26:07] Speaker B: Well, I'd say, like, when I'm in my, when I'm. When I'm working with clients, I feel a lot different than when I'm just sitting around bullshitting with friends. Like, I step into that. Into that role because clients need me to show up a certain way, and I become ineffective with clients when I get too casual with them and I let them in too much and I start becoming too buddy buddy with them. So I have to draw a line. But when I'm hanging out with my friends, I'm, like, a totally different person. If I'm hanging out with my wife and our daughters, I'm a totally different person. Not totally, but there's different aspects of me. And then when I'm on the podcast, I'm way more tucked in, like, and even though, like, afterwards we'll edit this and all that, I'm trying to be thoughtful of giving space, having the right conversations, adding in my opinions. So whoever it is, if you're getting up on a platform, like a podcast or band or burlesque or whatever it is, there's going to be different levels of kind of playing to an audience. [00:27:01] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. It's interesting to see, like, music culture versus, like, burlesque culture, because initially with burlesque community, I thought, oh, these are just going to be, like, cheerleaders with, like, really good vintage music taste. They're mostly lesbian nerds, which is fantastic news for me. My. Probably my favorite subculture, right? And I just didn't know until, like, you got to know these people, right? And then, like, yeah, music people, they tend to be, like, a bit more, like, yeah, social, wanting to party. Whereas, yeah, I find that the burlesque community, they just want to, like, play board games. It's very strange, but I love it. [00:27:37] Speaker B: Since you mentioned music. [00:27:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:39] Speaker B: Tell us about your band. [00:27:40] Speaker A: Yeah, the Corey hotline. We are a three piece from Calgary, Alberta. We play, like, I'd call it, like, celebratory garage rock. We have two records out, please hold. And dream phone, all very phone pun based. And we're on all the streaming services, so feel free to listen and make whatever judgments that you would like to make. [00:28:04] Speaker B: Now, that's, like, you gave me, like, a very universal, like, yes. Tell me about the band now. [00:28:09] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, so the band, it's very queer. So I front the band by playing guitar and singing. And then the only reason I say that I front the band, quote, unquote, I like to think it's pretty. Even Stevens, I've been in it the longest. I think it's been, like, eight years. Whereas Kat, our drummer, she's been in it, I think, now, like, three or four years, and then her sister Shan joined. So it's two siblings and me, which I think is so fun because, yeah, you get this really cool sibling dynamic that I'm kind of an outsider of, but they work so well together, and they have just, like, just such a cool way of approaching music because they know more than me, and I just like to see and hear what they come up with. It's really cool. [00:28:55] Speaker B: So, songwriting, who does that? [00:28:56] Speaker A: I do it, but I've been slacking off because I've been busy taking off my clothes for money. [00:29:00] Speaker B: So, you know, that will get you. [00:29:03] Speaker A: You know how it is. It's tricky, right? Because as a band now, you're a more accomplished musician than I am. But for where I am in music, often nights were, you know, maybe finishing at, like, midnight. We're taking all of our gear. We're splitting, like, $100, and it's like, wow, okay, I made $30, and that'll cover my. My food and my drink for the night. I'm gonna go to bed very tired. Whereas, like, in the blessed community, you do one song. You didn't write it. I didn't write any of the songs that I stripped to, because that would be a level of narcissism that I am not comfortable with. But you do your thing. You take off your clothes, you make a 100, $200, and you leave with a suitcase. And, gosh, I go to bed at, like, 1030. So as a performer, it's like, I still love music. I want to do music. I love it. But I've been finding, like, this balance. I'm 34, so I'm finding this balance of, like, there's ways of performing that are sustainable and also helpful in regards to tattooing, because, man, tattooing the day after, like, a rock show, man, that's very hard. It's hard. Yeah. [00:30:08] Speaker B: What's the connection between songwriting and any other creative pursuit, let's say, like, drawing or tattooing? [00:30:13] Speaker A: Oh, I think it comes back to, like, putting your insides on your outsides. I got to do a great songwriting course with Basha Boulat, and she talked about, like, authenticity if you find something that you genuinely think is true and you put it into a song, you'll have that feeling of, like, alignment that feels so good. And maybe you've noticed this with songs that you've written in the past where you're like, oh, some of it starts to feel wibbly wobbly because your perspective on things has totally changed. And it's funny when you see those things that just kind of fall out of what feels good for you. Yeah. So, yeah. That quest for authenticity and trying to find that truth that hopefully other people can connect with, I think that's what's beautiful about songwriting. [00:30:54] Speaker B: Can I share something with you about my songwriting? [00:30:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:57] Speaker B: I am not at all experiencing writer's block. I'm experiencing, what's the point block? And this is what I mean by that. It's that, like, the last record I wrote, every single song needed to be written. It was something I needed to say. Like, it really personally mattered to me. And I'm kind of in a perspective now where I've played in bands for many years, like, since I was, like, quite young, and I've been a part of a lot of records, and I'm kind of like, does this song need to exist? And not, like, the music of a song, but it's like, if something's been said a lot and by a lot of people very eloquently, really, really well, do I need. Why does my take matter anymore? And I'm kind of at a point now where I'm going to be 50 this year, where I'm like, eh, you know, maybe I've kind of said what I needed to say. Of course I write, like, I play in, like, a hardcore band. And I think in a hardcore band you can write songs about love, for sadness, or any of these things. There's always going to be space for a great, like, love song or a great song about thinking something's hot or whatever, or song about dancing, whatever it is. And I don't think people should stop writing it. But hardcore typically is, like, so, like, message driven and, like, really, like, kind of been in that space. And I kind of feel like, hey, you know, there's a. I don't. I don't know if any of. I don't know if my take on anything matters anymore for anyone to. For not even for anyone else to hear, but it's like, I don't think it's pushing the needle anymore. I almost feel like I'd have more fun being. Being an instrumental band. The last record I wrote was after I went through an extremely difficult period in my life, and, like, every single song, I was like, if I don't write this song, like, a part of me is not gonna be okay. [00:32:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:32:47] Speaker B: And I don't have that anymore. [00:32:48] Speaker A: You got too happy. It happened to me, too. I'm way too happy now I have to, like, manufacture trauma to try to get even to those places. So I think I'm gonna hopefully. Hopefully I do more songwriting, but I think I'm gonna do lots of time traveling when I do this songwriting, but not in a way that feels weird, because, you know, when you, like, listen to a new blank 182 song and they're still talking about high school, and it comes across very unsettling. I'm hoping to do some time traveling in a way that, like, I can frame it where people know that I'm not pretending to be 16, but I'm just maybe working through some things, you. [00:33:25] Speaker B: Know, that's a. I like that approach. I'll say on my end, I'm like, I've been writing some lyrics lately, and I'm like, I don't even care. Like, I don't even care to talk about this. And there are things come into my head. I'm like, I should write a song like that. And I start writing it down. I'm like, I don't care about this. And I wrote one song for this new record I've been working on, and it's like, that might be the last song I ever feel like I need to write. And it's just basically, like, nothing matters. Nothing matters except for the most basic thing, and I just kind of lay out these things. I was like, I think that might be it. I think the well's dry and not in a. Like, the well is dry. I'm like, oh, I just feel kind of satiated. Like, I think I'm okay. [00:34:09] Speaker A: You're like, you did the thing. Yeah. Like, you've reached this point of, like, happiness and achieving things in your life, but also, like, nihilism. That's, like, really beautiful. [00:34:17] Speaker B: Yes. [00:34:17] Speaker A: Yeah. It's, like, the perfect place to be. [00:34:19] Speaker B: Honestly, you really hit it. Like, that's, like, where I'm like, literally nothing matters. [00:34:22] Speaker A: I love my kids. I love my wife. I love my job. Nothing matters. [00:34:26] Speaker B: No. [00:34:26] Speaker A: Isn't that great? [00:34:28] Speaker B: I could take care of my mom. I can. I have a company that, like, matters to people that I. That I'm the owner of. I love my wife. My wife's the most wonderful person. We have three great kids who I'm so lucky to be a part of their lives in the different ways that I'm a part of their lives. I'm in relatively good health, you know, like, life is sick. I'm good, and nothing matters. Like, nobody will even know who I am in, like, you know, like, 100 years, so it doesn't. Nothing matters. [00:34:56] Speaker A: I love it. I love it. I love it so much. Yeah. But then there's this part of you that's like, oh, but I'd still like to do that thing. It's like I had all these, like, you know, not to put in past tense of, like, I had all these dreams of being this musician. There's this. There's these dreams that, like, sometimes, like, change and shape, but then you're still quite, like, married to these old ideas of, like, oh, but if I. If I'm not doing this anymore, am I a sellout? Have I given up? Like, it's weird, like, coming into these different places of your life that I'm like, is it cool if I don't write songs anymore? Do I want to? What's serving me at this point? And it's. It's a scary thing to kind of explore. Cause it's weird to think about yourself, like, changing that much. Like, this is a really random example, but my first tattoo I ever got, I was 19, and it is a heart with a banner, very traditional. The banner says danger. So stupid. And I put it on my upper right ass cheek, and I said to myself, at 19, if I ever hate this tattoo that is a heart with a banner that says danger, I'll know that I've changed too much. And to this day, I still fucking love this tattoo because it's so stupid. So these things that you think about of, like, there's these landmark things where you're like, I don't want to change this much. But then, yeah, you're like, oh, what's serving me at this point? Like, what do I need to do in the world to make it a place that I want to be in? You know? [00:36:15] Speaker B: Can I add to that, please? The way that I try and think about things. Have you ever known someone or been like this yourself, where it's like. It's like, you're, like, an experienced addict. You're just trying to do all this stuff and do all these things constantly. There's that side of things, but the other side is like, you've got too few experiences, but you just keep trying to drink from the same. Well, I'm a little bit more of the second where it's like, I've drank from the same very small sources, and I've drank deep, and I've been very fortunate being able to do a lot of cool stuff, but it's like, I guess where I'm trying to be mindful of is, like, at what point in the things that you do to express yourself? Do you say, maybe I'm just doing this because it's where I've had some level of success, and so it's comfortable and easy to do that. And if expressing myself is so important to me, maybe I try other forms of expression. [00:37:13] Speaker A: Yeah, it might be time for you to start taking off your clothes for money. [00:37:16] Speaker B: This is where I'm going. [00:37:17] Speaker A: This is where you're going. [00:37:18] Speaker B: This is the big announcement, actually. [00:37:19] Speaker A: I'm so happy to be part of it, and I can't wait. [00:37:24] Speaker B: I've been thinking about it a lot. We just did a tour, which was super fun. Everyone in the band that I play with is, like, the best, and the other band we were touring with are the best. Like, I just had so much fun. My wife's with me. It was great. And I left that tour kind of thinking, what if I just tried painting, which I am terrible, like, can't, like, draw or anything? What if I just tried doing that to express myself, knowing that I suck at painting and knowing that nobody would care to see my paintings? Could my ego handle this? And how much of this is just an ego trip? And is this, well, serving me anymore? Am I still getting my thirst quench from this, my thirst to express myself? And I'm really, like, reflecting on this a lot because it's, like, what serves me now. So when you talk about that tattoo that you love, it's like, you still, like, yeah, this tattoo's stupid. I love it. It's like, do I really need to put out another record? [00:38:14] Speaker A: But, yeah, you're kind of saying, like, you want to maybe get into something that you don't feel comfortable in, that you feel like there's more of a risk to your ego, perhaps. And I think that's really cool. Like this. I don't want to use the word, like, manufactured discomfort, but it is good to have those things where, like, yeah, just feeling, like, really, like, uncomfortable at times being like, oh, my gosh, what is this? And even if you, like, suck at something and you're bad at it and you hate it, you never want to do it again. But what a great experience that was to just be like, holy shit, I had a bad breakup when I was in university. I was a young person, and my friends were like, let's do an opposite day. I was living in Edmonton at the time. They're like, let's do opposite day. We're going to go to West Edmonton Mall, a place that we hate. Let's go to West Edmonton Mall. We're going to go to jungle gyms. We're going to get weird fishbowl cocktails, things that we would never do, and then we're going to go to the gun range, and we're going to fire a gun. And I was like, let's do this. And it was great to, like, do those things because it was just, like, so fun to just be a different person and then to, yeah, to shoot a gun. I don't know if it was, like, before or after the drinks. I think after. No, before. I would like to say that we were ethical about this and we were very cautious. But, yeah, firing a gun. Worst experience of my life. Terrible. Would not recommend. Too loud. Very scary. Do not like, but, yeah, just to do something so out of, like, what I would normally do. Yeah, it's a nice little kind of way to shake yourself up and realize that maybe who am I? This concept of self, right? I've had other times where, like, depths of depression had an amazing friend take me up on a hike on Crescent Heights where you can see all the city, and she's like, do you see everybody? Do you see all the buildings and everybody? Nobody gives a fuck about you. And I was like, that's the best thing I've ever heard. And just sobbing tears of happiness, knowing how many people didn't give a shit about me. Incredible. Such a good feeling at times, right? [00:40:12] Speaker B: It is. Again, why the Internet is so amazing and why it's so terrible is, like, people getting into that main character syndrome where it's like, listen, I know we use that term to kind of make fun of people, but I think it's, like, really easy to fall into that thinking, especially if you're outfacing, like, you're putting content out into the world, Internet or not, around that, finding discomfort. So when I am working with clients and they're talking about being in a really long term stressful situation, so, like, say a business is downsizing or they've got some big thing going on, or COVID, like, anything like that, where people are stressed, stressed out, there's this thing called the long term stress response. Do you mind if I get into this? [00:40:58] Speaker A: I love this kind of stuff. [00:40:59] Speaker B: So long term stress response is kind of the backup system for people who get, when they're under enormous, prolonged stress, and all of us have it, we all have it to different degrees, different sensitivities to it. But if you're in a situation that is stressful beyond six weeks, this thing usually kicks in and has three phases. The first phase is the alarm phase, and it's dominated by your fight or flight. So your sympathetic nervous system. The second phase is called the resistance phase, and that's where you really, like, tuck in and you can work longer hours. It's when your psychology's gone, okay, this isn't going away. So I need to, like, steel myself for it. You can work longer hours, you can focus longer, you can collaborate better, you can problem solve more, you can, like, wake up and be ready to go. So people's ability to manage massive stress and operate super high is in this resistance phase. But the challenge about the resistance phase, it's got all of these things that are, from an evolutionary perspective, are intended to help us, but they actually put us in great peril. So you can, because you're so, like, ability to. Your ability to focus and work longer is like super heightened. Your desire for sleep reduces, and so you tend to sleep shorter hours. But you also have disturbed sleep because your mind creates, fabricates, what I call short circuit thinking, where it creates a problem that can't be solved by thinking, and it's what gets you out of bed. So it's all trying to trick you to work longer, to eat less or to eat more, so to carb load or to preserve things. And there's all of these other tricks. Does it sound familiar from. [00:42:35] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, yeah. [00:42:36] Speaker B: So often when I encourage people, because the third stage is exhaustion of this thing. And it's when we have. The tricks of that system have caused us to overwork so much that we can't regulate ourselves. And becoming exhausted, when you cross over that threshold into exhaustion, it doesn't mean something terrible is going to happen. It's just your performance starts to dip. But somewhere along the spectrum of exhaustion comes severe burnout. And severe burnout is a mental health event. And so you could be exhausted and imagine walking through a misty field, and you can see straight ahead, but you can't see your feet. Severe exhaustion or severe burnout lays within that space of exhaustion. And for some people, it's right after the border of crossing into exhaustion. But for other people, you can be an exhausted for a long period of time. But for everybody, severe burnout is out there waiting. So once you hit a severe burnout, it's like a total, sharp, unexpected drop and you're experiencing a mental health event. What I encourage people to do is if you're in the resistance phase and you're really like, this stress is going to last a long time, you got to focus on what I call the three ds. So the first is discipline. Discipline, I simply mean is that if you think of the quadrants of life and like, self care, it's what I call the pillars of self care. It's going to be exercise, diet, sleep, and social. And so exercise, I don't mean people like, go out and try and get buff. It just means have a proper amount of exercise. Diet doesn't mean go on a diet. It's the opposite of that. Just eat a balanced diet with whole foods regularly. Sleep. You gotta sleep at least 7 hours a night. And then social. All human beings need ish around an hour of social engagement a week. And you can split that up across the week however you want, but they need about an hour. You gotta have that discipline of having your self care routine taken care of. The next is distraction. And distraction, the way I refer to it as, like, the junk food of the mind or the health food of the mind, you need an hour of distraction a day. So whether that's binge watching love is blind or reading a book about philosophy, you need to have that. But the last one, and it goes to what you're saying. Sorry, this is a long explanation. [00:44:52] Speaker A: I'm loving it. [00:44:54] Speaker B: The last is disruption. So it's discipline, distraction, disruption. What the point of disruption is when you get super stressed or you get too much on autopilot in your life, your perspective shrinks. And so if you and I were on a mountaintop, and I was looking at, like, this beautiful 360 view, and you were looking at the exact same view, but you had one eye closed and you were looking through, like, a cardboard tube, we'd be in the same place, but having radically different experiences. One of us would have full perspective and the other one would have ultra limited perspective. The more stressed out we are, the more tight our view gets. And so that thing your friend did for you, which is like, take you up on a walk where there's a view, and they said, literally nobody here cares about you. It's forced perspective. [00:45:41] Speaker A: Love it. [00:45:41] Speaker B: Your friend was taking away that cardboard tube and throwing it out when I was talking about, like, I've been playing in bands for all these years, and it's like how I express myself, but it's like I express myself in such a limited way now. Because it's not limited, actually. Let me reverse that routine. Routine beautiful. That I don't know if the benefit that I get from or the. The joy or the. The thing that I draw from it is as beneficial as it once was, where if I tried something else, it's disruption. I'm doing something that's radically different and I'm not doing it to, like, now I'm going to make myself uncomfortable, but more so. It's like if I want to express myself in a way that's really going to fill up my cup, I should try and get good at something that I'm not already good at and I haven't already had success. And that's that whole idea of disruption, not just in times of stress, but in life, is an important, I believe is an important way of maintaining proper perspective about, like, the world around you. [00:46:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, I love watching tattooers do, like, their disruption or distraction activities because so much of it does tie back into tattooing. I've seen tattooers take up, like, tuft gun rug making or, like, wood burning, like, just the coolest stuff that, like, ultimately makes you a better tattoo artist. There's nothing in the art world, I feel like, that will make you, like, a worse tattooer. Right. And I love that idea of, like, we need to give ourselves permissions to, like, play and do these, like, disruptive things because I have, like, that adhd brain. So if I'm not, you know, getting that serotonin hit or that novelty every once in a while, I do love my structure, but if I don't own my novelty, you know, I think that's such a. I don't know, it's such an invigorating way to look at life. Yeah. [00:47:14] Speaker B: So tell us about your tattooing practice. [00:47:18] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, it's all practice. Yeah. Like, I'm an american traditional tattooer, so I try to rely on very well distinguished imagery, but I love to do little things like make a pop culture reference or inject some kind of queerness into it. I love thinking about how, like, these hardcore, old traditional tattooers would absolutely hate me, and that just fuels me, you know, I just love it. They'd be so mad about the stuff I like to do with their thick lines and tons of black, you know? [00:47:56] Speaker B: Well, like, give me an example. Like, what do you do that they would. That would drive someone crazy? [00:48:00] Speaker A: Gosh. Yeah. Well, this has been done by many people before, so I'm not claiming this to be novel in any kind of way. And I think I've only scraped the surfaces of it. But even the concept of, like, a pinup boy versus, like, these pin up girls pin up men just kind of, like, queering the experience, you know, I find it's. It's funny to flip it on its side. You know, we have so much. I joke about, like, catcalling men is just gender equity. I'm not actually saying to do that. Like, we can't harass people. People shouldn't sink to other people's levels, but it is, like, equitable, right? And even, like, when there's consensual objectification happening to me within, like, a burlesque practice, I'm like, this is equity in practice. Women should have the opportunity to objectify men, right? And even for gay men, like, if they're trying to get a tattoo of, like, a pin up lad or whatnot, I think that's a beautiful thing, you know? Yeah. [00:48:53] Speaker B: So what was your first exposure to tattooing? Like, what's your first recollection of being like, oh, that's what a tattoo is. [00:48:58] Speaker A: Yeah. No one in my family has tattoos at all, so I think it was just seeing other people and just being, like, fascinated by it. I was just very much a bit of, like, a black sheep in my family. I was just drawn to things that were quite alternative from what my catholic, suburban family had within their scope. So, yeah, tattooing, I think just the fact that it was a bit taboo instantly attracted me, actually, Sebastian Murray, who was on the show, we were looking at old photos of each other from high school, and we were, like, having a laugh because that's what trans people do. And, yeah, I was like, sebastian, look at this photo. I'm wearing a Miami ink t shirt, you know, like, as, like, a 16 year old. You know, just being like, without having. [00:49:44] Speaker B: An idea, you're gonna be a tattooer. [00:49:45] Speaker A: You know, hoping and praying with thinking that would be a great thing. And, yeah, it was funny, like, having those tv shows, because nowadays people are like, oh, did you catch ink master? I haven't watched a single episode in my life. I would rather watch drag race. I don't know what that says about me, but, yeah, like, these. These kind of sensationalized reality tv scopes of tattooing I found really interesting. Yeah, I guess that would have been, like, my first kind of look into that world, I suppose. [00:50:20] Speaker B: It's so funny that Miami, Inc. And not just for you. Like, I've heard this from, like, people of that age that would have. So I was. I was in, like, 20 or maybe my thirties when that was on and so I viewed it through a, like, oh, isn't this interesting? Like, this thing that I've been getting done to me for years is kind of getting a little bit mainstream acceptance. [00:50:39] Speaker A: Totally. [00:50:39] Speaker B: And all that stuff. And then when La came out, my friend Dan shouts. Dan Smith, love you. Dan was on the show and was like, oh, not only is it, like, getting kind of mainstream, but, like, a punk, hardcore person there. Straight inch person's on there. That's, like, amazing. And then it's like, all of these different shows. It's like, that's so weird. Like, it's cool. It's fine. But what I love, like, now is, like, when I was talking to Sebastian or you, how it's, like, a reference point for you of, like, what brought you into it on some degree, which is like, that's pretty cool. [00:51:09] Speaker A: Can't be what you can't see. Representation matters. Even if it's a weird reality tv show from, like, the early aughts, you. [00:51:16] Speaker B: Know, I've never had a negative opinion of those shows at all. I was like, cool, you know, like, give people a chance to learn. Okay. But what was the journey from being, like, miami, Inc. T shirt wearing person. [00:51:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:51:28] Speaker B: To actually getting in the industry? [00:51:30] Speaker A: Yeah. My mentor is Steve Peace, who's a very well known tattooer in Canada. He runs, like, the tattoo shows for all of Alberta with, like, Edmonton and Calgary. I shouldn't say all of Alberta, obviously. Alberta is bigger than Edmonton and Calgary, but the two main cultural hubs, he runs the tattoo shows for them, and he does more of, like, a realistic, like, a realism realistic way of tattooing. So we're quite, like, kind of opposite ends. But he was very kind to me. Like, his son is transgender, so I had done some, like, friendship mentorship with his son. Like, I think of us as just friends. I don't think I was doing much mentorship. Maybe just the fact that I was, like, older and alive, usually that's good enough, right? Like, you'll do. And I think he was grateful for that, and I was kind of welcomed into their family a bit. And, yeah, he was willing to show me how to tattoo, so thank God for Steve. Peace is all I have to say. I should put it on a t shirt. Thank God for Steve. Yeah. [00:52:27] Speaker B: That's awesome. [00:52:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:52:29] Speaker B: Leading up to that, though, were you getting tattooed? Were you, like, part of the culture? [00:52:32] Speaker A: Yeah, ever since I was 19, and I think I would have started when I was 18, but I was so scared of what my mom was gonna think. And it's been a theme throughout my life. Like, what is my mom gonna think? And I think once you come out first, maybe as a lesbian, because you were like, that seems pretty close. And then I learned about what a transgender person was, and I was like, that's it. So I think once, like, you know, you come out as a lesbian, a transgender person, all these other things, I think, hey, mom, I'm going to tattoo or continue to be tattooed becomes less scary on the list of things. And my mom was actually quite supportive in me of all aspects, and she's the only person in my family who I've tattooed. No one else has tattoos but my mom. She's let me tattoo her. [00:53:14] Speaker B: So did any of your family's reactions surprise you in a pleasant way? [00:53:20] Speaker A: Well, actually, I was, like, kind of a late in life tattooer. Cause I always think I was about 28 when I first started my apprenticeship, which is, like, you know, usually, like, ten years behind what most people would think of, like, as a lifelong tattooer. You know, usually, like, when they're 18, people try to get in there immediately. So I think because it was later in life and I had already done. I'd already, like, had established myself as, like, I have my permit, teaching certification. I'm like, if this doesn't work out, I'll go back. I promise. And so I just think my parents being like, you know what? Let them figure it out. And so far, it's been great. So. [00:53:57] Speaker B: Yeah, well, also, what I meant, and share this to whatever degree you're comfortable, is, like, any of the transitions that you've had in your life, even from, like, getting your first tattoo to coming out as a lesbian and coming out as transgender, any of those. And then career change. I know a lot of people in their journey talk about, like, I was really worried about how my family's gonna react. And, of course, we've heard many difficult stories that people have experienced. I'm always interested. Did you ever have an experience where you're like, I thought it was gonna be really bad, but I was actually surprised by how well they reacted? [00:54:33] Speaker A: Yeah, one. So, yeah, as people can kind of imagine from that reaction, a lot of that stuff that I did with sharing who I am with my family didn't go well. My grandparents were such a surprise, and it's kind of like a feel good and then a bit of like a. Oh, that is how it is, isn't it? Because my family, all girls, right? So my grandparents being part of a very patriarchal, traditional society, when they found out that I was a man, they were ecstatic because of patriarchy. They were like, finally a boy. And I'm just like, I don't know if this is a win, but I think I'm gonna take it. Yeah. So it's great. [00:55:14] Speaker B: So, how did the reactions change over time, though? Were the reactions kind of, like, the same in a predictable way, or over time, did the family evolve their thinking, evolve their openness? [00:55:28] Speaker A: Yeah, I think just, like, seeing me be okay and be happy and working it out for myself, I think that put them at ease because, yeah, my parents didn't know anything about transgender folks. Right. I think even as a child, people are like, when did you first learn about transgender people? I'm like, does Frank n furter count? Because, like, that was my point of reference, was, like, rocky horror picture show. And I was like, that's not it. That's not me. But, like, understanding there's some kind of. People kind of are like, oh, can young kids really know their gender identity? I remember being three years old and knowing that I was a little boy. And even, like, birthday cakes, I remember being, like, five, six, seven, blowing out the candles. I always wished to be a boy, which I knew was impossible, but then, surprise. It's actually not. So that was really cool. So I think just having my family see that I was okay, and I was actually genuinely happy. I don't know if they've ever seen that kind of true joy in my life as an adult, because basically, from puberty onwards, it was all downhill. Right. I think kids have a very genuine understanding of who they are, and they just live authentically. Like, you have two little kids. Right. And they just. They just are who they are. Right. Yeah. And whether that is, like, traditionally feminine, that's who they are. You know? Like, I don't see many kids where I think that their parents have kind of, like, pressured them or ingrained them to act a certain way. Kids kind of just have a default that they go with. Right. So, yeah, I think that them getting to see, like, oh, yeah, I remember. I remember this person. That's so cool to see again. You know? I think that that put them at ease. [00:57:07] Speaker B: So their trust. Their trust in, like, taking that leap with you increased over time. [00:57:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:57:14] Speaker B: And that kind of, like, outweighed their fear. [00:57:16] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And, yeah, I think it's. I've talked to, like, parents of, like, lots of transgender folks, and their. Their fear is safety. Right. And that. That's a big one. But then there's also this idea of, like, how safe are they right now? You know, like, I'd rather feel safe in my body and have, like, the world be on fire outside, you know, having the 1 million march come into my door or whatever the fuck it is. Save the children, get fucked. I'd rather have that alignment with in myself than to be that person that's, like, in the closet, denying myself and having the whole world be, like, accepting. Right. Cause it was a confusing thing for me in high school, especially. Cause, like, you understand societal pressure and what beauty standards are. And I was quite feminine in high school because I didn't want to fight anymore. I didn't want to be bullied. I didn't want to have old ladies freaking out when I tried to use the public washroom. So you get this, like, approval from falling in line, and that is also very affirming and addictive in a different way, but that alignment still isn't there. So, yeah, I. As far as safety goes, I'd much rather be like this and have the world be on fire than look the way that people expect me to and have that disruption inside me, you know? [00:58:31] Speaker B: So stepping back into tattooing, but let's connect the two. It seems like that the tattooing industry is, like, really moved away from just being kind of, like, old school biker shop stuff, and that's fine, too. And I know a lot of that still exists, but it seems like there's a lot more, let's say, instead of saying moving away from that, there's a lot more options. [00:58:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:58:51] Speaker B: Now. And there's a lot more options to be tattooed by people who look like you feel like you have had, like, shared life experiences as you. A lot more options. Yeah. What needs to be done? And I know I spent a lot of time. Spent a ton of time talking about this, and it was a really cool conversation, but I always love to hear different people's voices, though. Like, what needs to continue to be normed or continue to be challenged or continue to be expanded. [00:59:18] Speaker A: Yeah. I think there needs to be opportunities for, like, tattooers to be held to a standard of professionalism and acceptance and inclusion, and then I think there needs to be restorative opportunities when that's not achieved. Like, I know some people are like, oh, this licensing thing. I'd love for folks to be licensed, and I'd love for there to be a shadowy board of, like, master tattooers in Calgary that wear dark cloaks and there's candles and stuff. And if you fuck up, you have to go to them and they can give you some restorative justice opportunities. You should take this class, do this, this, this, then check in with us later, because right now there's no real way to keep people in check for that. And I've had this dream forever of having this organization, and I'd love to hire educators that can talk about racism in tattooing or accessibility in tattooing or whatever, and then have tattooers bring $20, and then they listen to this person talk for an hour, and that $20 goes directly to them, and we say, see you next month. You know, have I followed through on this dream? No, but the more I say it out loud, the more people are going to be like, you got to do it. So, yeah, I would love to see more of, like, a community aspect of holding ourselves to a higher level. Right. Yeah. [01:00:34] Speaker B: What you said about that kind of becoming more of a regulated entity. Yeah. As you and I were talking about earlier, coaching is not regulated, and I came from something that had a higher level of regulation, which was therapy. However, when I first became a therapist, it was not regulated. When I was early in my career, it's like any well wishing person basically could be like, I'm a therapist. And the way you presented yourself would be counselor or clinical counselor, therapist. There's different designations or way of talking about it, but you'd be find these people doing something really, really sensitive work that really didn't have the training or the education or the expertise. And there was a few different results from that. Some people I remember, this person I worked with at my last therapy job was probably the best therapist I've ever worked for. I've learned, worked with. I never learned more from one person. Zero education, no lived experience, was just someone who wanted to help people. Unbelievable therapist, credible, and was kind of grandfathered in just due to how long they've been in the field. And I also work with people who have, like, education, like, out the ass, who are the worst, literally the worst, and probably causing harm. So, like, around, like, regulated stuff. I like that coaching isn't regulated in a lot of ways because it's like, it gives me a lot of freedom just to, like, build my company how I want to build it, operate how I want to operate. And I often feel it's like, the best, do the best work, be the best. You're going to get into the right positions. You're going to be able to help the most and suck and be a weirdo and, like, don't do a good job. You won't be found out at first, but after a while, you're going to be found out. So part of me likes that, but part of me doesn't like that. Part of me doesn't like or is not a fan of it not being regulated, because you get a lot of people who come in and cause a lot of harm and do a lot of stupid bullshit and, like, kind of give everyone a bad name. So, like, I'm kind of attracted to the regulated side of it. But then part of me is, like, I love rules. [01:02:37] Speaker A: I love rules. I love things to be measurable, you know? I do, too. [01:02:40] Speaker B: I'm actually quite rulesy. Monica, like, laughs at me a lot or jokes with me about this quite a bit, that I'm quite rulesy. I'm always hesitant who makes the rules and who enforces them. [01:02:50] Speaker A: Exactly. That's where the problem comes in. Right. [01:02:53] Speaker B: But then also who has the right connections and can skirt the rules. Just because there's rules doesn't mean there's gonna. There's gonna be bad actors. So I like what you're saying about the regulated side, but I'm also like. [01:03:05] Speaker A: Yeah, it's definitely a trick. And I don't have the correct answer. I just. I see things like barbering and massage where, like, you have to do this, this and this, and there's this many hours of practicum and whatever. And I think that is so valuable because, yeah, like, I get that there's a lot of safety stuff with massage and hair cutting, but, like, isn't there also that with tattoo? [01:03:29] Speaker B: Oh, my God. [01:03:30] Speaker A: Like, oh, my God. The health risks are so severe. And I think if you really love and you really honor tattooing, then you should do it in a way that is ethical. Right. And so that's. And then ethics. What does that mean? Right. So I never want to, like, prevent someone who has, like, that. That, like, maybe that experience or that ability to connect with people that would, like, limit them from entering that field. But then I also don't want people getting hurt because they think it's something you can just do at your kitchen table, you know? Yeah. [01:04:04] Speaker B: So I know a lot of tattooing and coming up in the industry has a lot to do with apprenticeship and mentorship. And it sounds like from someone who's not part of the industry, that mentorship is a huge, huge part of tattooing and can set people on all sorts of courses. Like, you can have a horrible mentor, horrible person who's in charge of your apprenticeship, and that could actually make you great at doing it down the line because you don't want to be like that. Or you could have someone who's terrible. And they could make you like that. They could encourage those behaviors. Mentoring is something I always find fascinating because I grew up with no mentors, basically. And because of that, I had to figure a lot of stuff out on my own, which created a lot of chaos in my life for you, as someone who is tattooing is making a living out of it, clearly has a platform. What's important to you about how you walk as a mentor? [01:04:58] Speaker A: Hmm. Yeah. I think we have to remember that these are people who have. If I have a client that I'm not quite seeing eye to eye on, I think about, okay, from the moment that that person, like, entered this world and I entered this world, how many things happened in the course of our lives that were completely different, that would shape our perspectives? Completely. Right. Sometimes I see people wanting to do things where I'm like, that's not very aesthetically pleasing, but also, I'm not that person. So I'm able to, like, provide some of my own opinions or, like, offer some things. But at the end of the day, like, if that person wants that infinity loop or whatever, or, like, that little, like, infinity heart, because they just feel like that is their authentic truth, then I am happy to do that for them. You know, like, it's so much ego of, like, tattooers will put on, like, well, it's my art, but fuck, it's their body, you know? Like, at the end of the day, I want to do a conform informed consent model where I'm like, if I do this this small, it's going to blur. It's going to look like this. But if that person's like, I need it done this way. And I think that they understand how that might look in a couple of years or how that might change, and they're still like, no, this is it. Then I'm not. I'm not happy to do it for them, but I will, you know, do that for them in a way that I'm like, hey, I'm gonna do this in a way that I think will work out the best. Do you approve of this? Yeah. Cause I don't wanna do something on someone's body that I know is just gonna look like absolute trash. Right. That is also, like, an ethical obligation you have. But I'm never gonna be like, oh, infinity loop, you gotta go. Why don't you go get a skull? You know? That's not for me to say. So I guess that's something I try to remember that these clients are gonna wake up every day and go into the world with this tattoo, and they're gonna see it every day, not me. So as long as I do my best and I communicate to them what I think will make them the happiest and we can come to some kind of agreement, I think that's the best you can do, right? [01:07:00] Speaker B: I'm always interested in that tension with a tattoo artist between being able to say, this represents my work, and I feel good about this, representing, like, what I'm capable of versus what someone wants. [01:07:14] Speaker A: Yeah. And you can always know it because I won't post it on Instagram. And that's how you know if you weren't able to figure it out already. If I didn't post your tattoo on Instagram, it's because I feel like it didn't represent who I am as an artist. Come back again. I'm happy to help you, you know, like, I hope you had a great experience, and I'm more than happy to serve you in the future. [01:07:37] Speaker B: Can we go to the business side of tattooing? [01:07:39] Speaker A: Sure. [01:07:40] Speaker B: What have you learned about being a business person? [01:07:43] Speaker A: The second I stopped posting shirtless photos and now that I'm back on the. [01:07:49] Speaker B: App, you know, gotta show some skin. [01:07:52] Speaker A: You gotta show some skin. And I love it. Cause, like, a lot of my lady friends that are tattooers, gorgeous, beautiful. And they definitely do that third wave feminism thing where they're like, I am gorgeous and beautiful. Do you also want a tattoo that will be gorgeous and beautiful? And I'm like, hell, yeah, do it. And I think that, like, I think the guys should also hop on board. I think it's hilarious. I think we should be out there doing our poses and looking good, you know? It's beautiful. [01:08:19] Speaker B: Mike, maybe we should try that for the podcast. [01:08:21] Speaker A: Yeah, but happy. [01:08:24] Speaker B: Something's gotta happen about, like, making money and having a brand and, like, just getting known, literally, like, making money as it. Cause I met tattooing is your prime source of income. So what have you learned about, like, being a business person? [01:08:40] Speaker A: It's bananas. Cause people are like, oh, you beat capitalism, you know? Cause you're an artist. You do art. I'm like, no. I'm like, I'm maxed out at capitalism because I've made this a commodity, you know? Yeah, it's very rare that I get to do, like, this is what I want to do. This is exactly in line with who I am. Here you go. And the client's like, let's do it. It happens, and it's such a beautiful moment, but oftentimes they're like, yeah, can you change this and this and this. And I'm like, okay, sure. You know, and then it's like, it's more customer service, right? When people come to me and they're like, oh, I want to be a tattoo artist. I'm like, have you worked in retail? Did it give you life? Did it give you energy? And, like, yeah, I've done my own, you know, work in customer service and that. And some of it, I really genuinely enjoy helping people, and some of it's very exhausting. But I'd say, like, tattooing is, like, a lot of just customer service, you know? And if that's not for you, then it might not. It might not feed your soul or serve you in the way that you think. And it's a lot of casual coaching. I guess. In some ways, I think when we kind of do a throwback to Miami, Inc. I think that set a precedent that people are like, when I get my tattoo, I am allowed to trauma dump on my artist, and that's how I'm gonna feel good. And it's like, I don't mind. I've had a counselor say, mason, you are a trauma informed tattooer. And I was like, can we make a certification? Cause I think that would be great. But, yeah, gosh darn, some people really wanna tell me some terrible shit. Well, I'm like, listen, I'm just trying to focus, you know? I'm just trying to make your tattoo look nice. So that's a funny thing. So it's. Are you good at customer service? Can you hold space for people that are maybe going through it? You know? Can you separate yourself from your art enough that you don't take it super personally when people ask you to make changes and all that? Like, I got ADHD. I got that rejection sensitivity dysphoria. So when someone is like, that's not what I wanted. Or how come you didn't get my vision? Oh, my gosh. You know how much animal crossing I need to play to, like, feel okay about myself? Hours. Right? Like, it just. It hits me so hard. So, yeah, if someone can handle rejection, be flexible. Honor other people's vision, you know? And then also, yeah, hold space for people when they want to tell you the most fucked up shit ever. Welcome to tattooing. [01:11:05] Speaker B: Because very often, people look at it as just this very, like, kind of glamorous thing, like, you beat capitalism or whatever, but it has all of those extra things. Do you mind if we focus on that rejection piece for a little bit? It's interesting that you experience rejection with that level of severity, because you've picked things that are the most high critique, stand up comedy, putting your art on people out in the world, playing music and showing your body to people on stage. These are the magnets of criticism. So was that intentionally to confront that with that in yourself, or is that just something that happened? [01:11:44] Speaker A: Is that just totally delusional to be like, if I am so scared of rejection, I feel it so fully, if I go out there and commit and convince people that I have these skills and I'm this confident, can then I erase that criticism? If I establish, you know, how we joked about how, like, we can, we can shape the world to make your nose the ideal nose, which I think it very well could be. Can I just, like, trick people into thinking that I've got this all figured out and this erase all the criticism? Who knows? [01:12:14] Speaker B: So, you know, the sympathetic nervous system, fight or flight, everyone has a sympathetic nervous system, and it's slightly different for everyone. How they react to things is based a lot on their life experiences, what they've been exposed to, all these things. So people can have a underdeveloped parasympathetic response. So your sympathetic nervous system is like, it is triggered all day, every day, and, like, we might notice just slightly or not even notice at all, because all of us will have these major threat signals that come from our sympathetic nervous system that are instantly quashed by the parasympathetic. So sympathetic nervous system is like states of, like, fight or flight, fear, anxiety, parasympathetic. It's common relaxation. So when people have strong reactions and they're kind of referred to as being, like, too sensitive or anything like that, it's usually a underdeveloped parasympathetic nervous system response. And that most people will experience the exact same feelings that they have. It's just that their sympathetic. Their parasympathetic nervous system steps in instantly and will take care of those feelings for them. And that's something I've always disliked about people being told they're too sensitive because it's like, what a. Like, what a shitty thing to say to someone, and especially if they're sensitive. [01:13:27] Speaker A: Well, totally. [01:13:29] Speaker B: You're just, like, doubling down on something. [01:13:32] Speaker A: Like, I can't believe you have bad self esteem. You're such a fucking idiot. Bad self esteem, right. [01:13:38] Speaker B: I view when people have experiences, like, challenges around criticism and them seeking out things that put them in those positions, it's them seeking to develop an underdeveloped parasympathetic response. I actually think it's like a healthy behavior because they're trying to, through exposure therapy, like build up that parasympathetic response. [01:14:02] Speaker A: So I'm doing like a bit of exposure therapy by doing all these activities? [01:14:06] Speaker B: Yes, that's exactly it. [01:14:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:14:10] Speaker B: And it can go in a negative direction for people because they're not doing the things they shoot it to be. You can develop your parasympathetic response through exposure therapy and through like, really working on it. So as an example, someone who has like, a crazy reaction to spiders, well, do not have exposure therapy. You're going to do that. So if you have a crazy reaction to rejection, really, like challenging reaction to rejection, if you put yourselves in situations where you're going to do that, you're going to experience it. It can be really healthy. It doesn't mean it's going to feel good or you won't care, but the parasympathetic response is going to be stronger and it can help level out over time. Where it's challenging is people don't like, aren't thoughtful about how they do it. They get themselves into bad situations. [01:14:51] Speaker A: Gonna drink about it? Don't do that. [01:14:53] Speaker B: Totally, totally. So a lot of people who are in the arts, I will only speak for musicians. I know a ton of musicians who are ultra sensitive, myself included. And there's a lot of validation seeking that happens. And, like, you put out a bad record, that's gonna put you through the crucible. I'm not saying people should put out a bad record, but it puts you through the crucible of having to really experience that and the validation seeking. I view that as people trying to develop the parasympathetic response in a certain way, but just going about it in a haphazard way. So I think it's really cool that you've done that. You've kind of been exposing yourself in that way. [01:15:31] Speaker A: And the wild thing is, once I learned about rejection, sensitive dysphoria, stuff that made it so much smaller to me because I was like, oh, thank God, this is a thing that made it great. And then I learned a bit about, like, stoicism, about like asking yourself, will this matter in 5 hours, five days, five weeks, five months, all that. And like, God, that helps me chill out so much. Yeah. So that's been good. [01:15:54] Speaker B: Well, earlier you had mentioned how you like rules and you like structure. Yeah, right. [01:15:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:15:59] Speaker B: So when you learn about something like that, it plays into that kind of thinking, and then that kind of thinking would be like, oh, this thing is just some kind of it's just another thing. It's not something weird about me. It's a thing which then helps a parasympathetic response. Cause you like rules. That's part of the parasympathetic thing. Sorry. I'm not trying to, like, penalize you there. [01:16:19] Speaker A: I love it. This is free therapy. I'll take it. Cause I live in Alberta. [01:16:26] Speaker B: So that thing where you're like, when you're talking about how, like nothing mat. Like nothing matters. The zen of knowing, like, 100 years, no one will even know who I am. Someone will not speak my name ever again. At some point, whenever I have a strong reaction to rejection or fear or even something basic, like not being liked or something, my way of dealing with that is like you'd said, will this matter in five minutes, 5 hours, five days? It's like, oh, like no one's even gonna know who the hell I am in, like, 75 years or 50 years or whatever it is. [01:16:57] Speaker A: Absolutely. [01:16:58] Speaker B: But that idea of using soothing techniques. The soothing techniques are just your parasympathetic nervous system stepping in. And it's just for some people, it's not natural in all situations. And so you have to kind of hack the system by using, like, affirming thoughts or things that, like, kind of, like, create structure. Like, well, five minutes, 5 hours, five days, all of those things create parasympathetic responses. And I think the more that people like norm with that idea, it's like I could get used to almost any kind of level of strain and stress if I go into it with a mind of, I just have to learn how to adapt to norm, to this, so that I can stay relatively calm. [01:17:36] Speaker A: Yeah. And, like, I had problems with, like, people not liking me, and then I realized that there's certain people that you don't want to like you. Right. Like, if you get blocked by some bigot on whatever platform. Hallelujah. You know? So it's just. Yeah, those tricks. I love it. Yeah. [01:17:52] Speaker B: All right, we're going to go into the crucial three, which is going to be three escalatingly difficult questions. [01:17:58] Speaker A: Sweet. [01:17:58] Speaker B: And they're going to get. The last one's going to be the hardest. But before we get to that, anything that you want to share, where can people find you online? Where can they find you? Where can they book with you? All of that kind of stuff. So anything you want to share here? [01:18:09] Speaker A: Yeah, if you just want to go to Instagram, omboyseleck is my Instagram handle. It's also my burlesque name. And then from there you can book for tattoos or whatever you're interested in. [01:18:19] Speaker B: Perfect. Anything you want to hype up or give shout outs to. [01:18:24] Speaker A: Thanks for having me on. And our shop is blackbird electric. So if you'd like to come down and say hi at Blackbird Electric, you. [01:18:31] Speaker B: Are absolutely welcome to awesome. All right, you ready to go? [01:18:34] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm ready. [01:18:34] Speaker B: Okay. So what is one thing that you have learned about yourself that you wanted to change that you didn't like about yourself? And it could be about how you are professionally. It could be something about just, like, how you are when you're working, or it could be something personal, but some personal aspect about you that you wanted to change and you have been successful in changing. You're not still working on it. You've done it. [01:18:59] Speaker A: Hmm. I don't think anything that I've done can get, like, a check mark box of completion. But when I did start transitioning, I realized that I was, like, quite a misogynist, and I didn't pick up on it so much because when you're, like, a queer woman, a lesbian, people don't pick up on misogyny. Or at least not back in, like, 2010 when I was doing that. Yeah, I was never really called out on it, but when I looked like this and I was still doing those same behaviors that I was doing back then. Yeah, absolutely not. Okay. So I think I've been able to become a better feminist and a better ally, but I don't think I can give myself a gold stamp of approval. But the fact that I am aware of it and I'm on that journey, any level of anti oppression. Right. When people like, if you meet a person, they're like, well, I'm not racist. You're like, wow, you haven't started, have you? You know, it's like you didn't even take the first step. So just those things of, like, acknowledging societal biases that, like, live within me and to try to challenge those or recognize them when they come up and then try to behave differently. Yeah. [01:20:08] Speaker B: Second question. What is one thing that you are working on about yourself that you have yet to achieve, that you've really put in some work? [01:20:16] Speaker A: Into the first question. I should have saved it. Right. [01:20:20] Speaker B: But if I don't put it like that, then everyone's like, well, I'm working on everything all the time. Yeah, I want to hit one that you've at least mostly addressed. And, yeah, it's, you know, continue. Continue to work. But what's something where you're like, this is something that I know I need to work on. You have been working on, but you just haven't made the ground that you want yet. [01:20:40] Speaker A: I think being completely vulnerable and, like, always telling the truth in, like, relationships, because in the past, I've tried to be, like, a bit of a people pleaser or, like, that fawning kind of response where, like, maybe you'll tell, like, a little white lie to make things easier. But I found that there's a way you can pretty much share any information you want in a way that is not, like, extremely harmful to people or in a way that's, like, less harmful and in a roundabout way, can oftentimes be more helpful, even if it's kind of as harsh in the moment. So I'm trying to work on, like, being absolutely honest, truthful, and clear with people at all times because I'm a fucking terrible liar. So if I try to even go that route, it's all just gonna unravel anyways, you know? Yeah. [01:21:23] Speaker B: All right, last one. What's a message that you could share with 13 year old, you that 13 year old you needed to hear, but probably other people at 13 need to hear now. [01:21:34] Speaker A: I would share with my 13 year old self, like, you're not a freak, and you're gonna be great. [01:21:40] Speaker B: Heck, yeah. [01:21:41] Speaker A: Awesome. [01:21:42] Speaker B: All right, anything else you wanna share as we're closing off? [01:21:44] Speaker A: No, I think we're good. Thank you so much. This was really nice. [01:21:47] Speaker B: Really appreciate you having on everyone. This was a great episode. Had a lot of fun, learned a lot. Those were my favorite episodes, so I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. My name's Aran Marslanian, and this is one step beyond. [01:22:01] Speaker A: One step. One.