TJ Kostecky, Author of Eyes Up

[00:00:00] Speaker A: You can motivate through pain, you can motivate through discipline. That of course that works and that's powerful. But in terms of something that's life sustaining, that's going to spread to others. When you motivate with love and you care, when you show that you care for someone as a boss, as a colleague, there is very few limits to what people will do when you know that you really invested in them as human beings, as people. [00:00:29] Speaker B: That was a clip from today's guest, TJ Costi. TJ is a real inspirational person. He's just put out a great, really, really great book, which we're going to spend some time talking about today. And he's also a repeat guest, someone who was on last time that I just totally loved our conversation. I was super pumped up afterwards, gave me a great lens on the work I do and just the world in general. So we thought, what better time now that he's got this new book out to have him come back in, talk about the book. Just catch up before we get to it, though. Please rate, review and subscribe to the podcast. My name is aran Arslanian, and this is one step beyond TJ, my friend. Welcome. [00:01:33] Speaker A: To be here with you, dude. [00:01:36] Speaker B: First time you were on our conversation, I felt like it was a chess match with someone that I really like and not like someone's trying to win, but it was like you were like, oh, here's this idea. And then I'd be like, oh, here's this idea. And we're kind of going back and forth. It was probably one of the times where I was like, I could talk to this dude for another 2 hours. Now, whether or not people want to hear us talk for four plus hours, that's one thing. But I just immensely enjoyed our conversation. So I am so stoked to have you back on here. [00:02:05] Speaker A: I am as well. You know, I've had a few interviews and podcasts, and this journey with the book coming out and yours, frankly, was the most unique one and the most enjoyable one because I really loved how you shared your lens, your life experience, and you made me reflect. You made me rewire my brain and refresh my lens is what I talk about in eyes up and having conversations and listening to people and being comfortable sharing what they agree with or don't agree with from their life experience or the lens. I think it's powerful and I think that's how we grow. And from our conversation, you know, I grew and you made me better. And I can't say that has always happened when I've been on podcasts or in these settings, so I'm really privileged and grateful to be back. [00:02:55] Speaker B: Heck, yeah. So you have just accomplished something that I have long dreamed of. [00:03:01] Speaker A: There it is. [00:03:02] Speaker B: Eyes up. Brand new book, three weeks old, man. So how does it feel? [00:03:07] Speaker A: It's real now. It's real. It was surreal for years, then months, and then weeks. And then when it arrived in my house, I'm like, holy crap, this thing is. And it looks pretty damn good. The color it actually looked. Came out better than I thought it would. I don't know. You know, you have an expectation. You think it's gonna be good, and then look, I look at the endorsements on the back, I'm like, wow. Those people actually said that. I didn't pay them to say that. That's what they got out of the book. And then the graphic, it's. It was a great. It was a great feeling. A really wonderful feeling. [00:03:40] Speaker B: You have a real book? Like a real deal, actual book? [00:03:45] Speaker A: Yes. And the other part about the book, it's changing people's lives. It's helping, or it's only been out for, like, three and a half weeks. But the messaging I'm getting, wow. I have people that I don't even know who the heck they are that are sending me messages. I feel like I know you. I'm already applying in my lens the gratitude. When I wake up in the morning, I look at the world differently. I just want to tell you I appreciate you. I'm like, what? That's like, that's incredible. That's why I wanted to write the book. And to hear that from a complete stranger is just. It's affirming and validating. [00:04:19] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and when I say you have a real book, like, the first time someone ever told me they were putting out a book, I was like, whoa, wow, you're putting out a book? And it was someone around my age, but, like, we're talking 20 some years ago. Yeah, I'm putting out a book. So in my head, I've got, like, the idea of a book growing up, you know, like a book you'd get from the library. I was like, wow. And then really what they meant was, like, my corny friend, well, I want to be kind for this person specifically. It's like, my corny friend is going to, like, self publish or put out a book that I'm essentially self publishing. And it was like, I got it, and it was, imagine holding a piece of pizza. That's like that. And all the topics fell off, and I looked at this book and I was like, oh, that's cool. And it wasn't that it wasn't a good thing, but it really, like, you've got the idea of putting out a book, like a book, and then someone gives you this soggy piece of pizza, and I was like, oh, yeah, congratulations. We're in a time, in a day and age where, like, anyone can, like, put out a book, right? Like, I put out a book. It's like anyone could record a song and put it out on, like, like, soundcloud or something. It's like, oh, yeah, I just put out a new single. But it doesn't mean the single is, like, recorded well listenable. It doesn't mean there's an audience, doesn't mean anyone's going to be tapping their foot to it. So when I think about, when I say to you, put out a book, it's like, dude, you put out, like, a real book. That's a huge accomplishment. So congratulations. [00:05:53] Speaker A: Thank you. Man, you look, you fill me up, man. You fill me up. Yeah. Thank you. [00:05:59] Speaker B: Well, again, it's like, this sounds so terrible, but I have to say it. I'm taking a position here. Just because someone can write a book doesn't mean they should write a book. Like, listen, who, like, most people have a lot to say on stuff and that, I'd say almost everyone's got a lot of opinions, but very few people are going to be able to put together a bunch of ideas that are going to shift thinking, inspire action, change lives, and listen, if everyone wants to put out a book, go ahead. I do not care. Put out your 10 million books that nobody's going to read. But I think they just kind of clog space for the people who could put out a book that really matters. And I don't want to be prohibitive. Fine, put out whatever you want. But it just means that we should be really paying attention to what people are talking about, like, what's being pushed, what's making a difference. And I think that this book legitimately could be, not. Could be anyone who wants to spend time with this book is going to carry away some pretty significant stuff. So from not just me, but from, like, everyone at the podcast on our team, like, really congratulations, because I think you've done something that is very significant and that people will talk about for a long time. [00:07:08] Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for that. As I was writing it with Dan, so Dan is the writer. The heavy lifting is my co author, Dan. And I. I think I touched on that just briefly because we didn't talk about the book the first time. Primarily, he's a world class ghostwriter, but I put him on the COVID because he did so much heavy lifting. I'm not going to put him in the back or not include his name. I'm the storyteller. He took the stories that I had and he made them pop. He just made them absolutely explode and land in such a, I think, a manageable way where folks can relate to it and they can grasp those ideas and think about themselves and reflect. How does it impact themselves? And I, at first, I was like, I don't know if it's really worthy or if it's good enough, frankly. So I didn't plan on writing a book, and I don't know how much I share with you. The first time, it wasn't my idea to write a book. A colleague of mine said, hey, this dude Dan is a really cool guy. He's a soccer dad. He plays the game. And any coaches, I think you guys would just have a. Have a good time connecting. So we had a cup of coffee in Brooklyn. This is when I coach in the city, and over breakfast and coffee, he asked me if I would be interested in, you should write a book. So I'm not really that strong at writing. And he shared his own story that he is a writer, and he said, send me some content. I sent him some content of what I do with leadership and soccer because it's through a soccer coach's lens. And that's how this process started from my end, just so you're aware. [00:08:44] Speaker B: So I want to speak about ghost writers in a second. And really, I want to get to the heart of that. Cause ghostwriters, I think it's a misunderstood thing, and I've got a specific take that I'm interested in your thoughts on. But let's go to that. You weren't really planning on writing a book, and it was something that you were kind of. It was proposed to you or you almost had to be convinced to do. I was listening to an interview with Chuck d from Public Enemy, and, you know, I'm a huge, huge public enemy fan, and he's always been kind of upfront, like, hey, that was never. I wasn't intending to go and be, like, an emcee and, like, do all this stuff. I was kind of talked into it almost. I was, like, not condemned to do it, but people were asking me to do it, and I was reluctant to do it or hadn't really thought of myself. Because he was, like, a radio guy and a graphic designer and all that. And basically what he was saying was, like, the three things in my life that have really been successful. Other people brought to me and said, you should do this thing. And it's what listening to the people around me and listening to the potential they saw in me and saw in my message. Having that faith with them and taking that leap of faith is what really has built my career and my ability to speak on this kind of global platform. So what's the power in listening to the people around you and kind of taking that feedback and running with it? [00:10:07] Speaker A: I think it's huge. It's huge. Having mentors is a crucial part of growth and development. Having people that have some wisdom or see you from a different lens is a really critical part in my journey. In eyes up, I talk about a couple of mentors that I had. One is Norman, where he was the one who encouraged me to do this speaking thing. So I had a mentor and someone, Dan, who encouraged me to write or get into writing. And then I had Norman, who said that, you need to do leadership. You need to get in front of people. You need to help people in their lives, because what you say just makes a lot of sense. Without those two folks, we wouldn't be having this conversation, my friend. I would never have had the gift and the pleasure of meeting you if they didn't see something in me a little bit more than I saw myself. So, yeah, I echo that. [00:10:58] Speaker B: So let's go to the conversation with. Sorry, did you say it was Norman? [00:11:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:02] Speaker B: As it. Norm or Norman? [00:11:05] Speaker A: Norman. Yeah. Norman. [00:11:06] Speaker B: Yeah. All right, so, Norman, was it one conversation or multiple conversations? Was it something that, like, he kept revisiting, or was it one time and that thing, like, lit a fire in you? [00:11:16] Speaker A: It was one time. It was one time. I had never met. Never met him before. There was an event at. When I was at Liu Brooklyn. We had entrepreneurial center where we would have interesting folks come in and speak to our students about jobs and innovation. And there was a gentleman from Buzzfeed. Remember Buzzfeed? Right. A young guy, curly hair, and he was. I went to listen to him. I sat in the back room. I got there a little bit later. Room was filled, and I settled on a long, like, a long, narrow table, on a high table. And there was gentleman sitting on my right, facing me, but looking that way. Right. And I'm facing your direction anyway. So the lecture was fantastic. Was a young guy talked about how to make your way up in a company. How do you grow up in a company? [00:12:04] Speaker B: And. [00:12:05] Speaker A: But before he started, the first thing he said around was that if anybody has any ideas or suggestions for me, let me know. I'm like, that's pretty cool. I've never heard anybody open up a talk that they're going to inform everyone says, hey, you've got something to help me with or something different, let me know. Talk about open invulnerability. I love that. That was great. And he was phenomenal. He nailed it. And after he finished, a few questions and I raised my hand at the end, I said, loved your talk. And I could see it benefiting the students and myself. Can I make a suggestion? He said, yeah. I said, your 7th slide. You encourage everyone you work for a big Fortune 500 company to get to know the administrative assistant to the CEO. Basically, she or he is the gatekeeper, right? They have the schedule. So get to know that person. Make sure you network with that person. I said, I suggest you replace the word connect with network, because when you network with someone, it's like you're being transactional. What are you going to do for me? Can you network with me? Can you do this for me? When you connect with someone, it's more of a transformative lens, you know, how can I serve or help you also? Well, everybody turned and started clapping, by the way, which was odd, like on their own. And he goes, I'm going to change it right now. So he goes, and he changes it real time on his PowerPoint. And this gentleman next to me in a three piece suit, very polished, looks at me and says, would you come and speak into my global studies class? I said, about what? He goes, anything you want to talk about? That's how it started. That's how it started. [00:13:37] Speaker B: Heck yeah. Heck yeah. At what point, though, was it like, hey, you should go do this? [00:13:43] Speaker A: So I, so I did. So I, he. I ended up talking about leadership because my life has been about mentoring. And I realized probably nine years ago that my purpose was trying to help other people find their purpose or live their purpose, because maybe you already found your purpose, just helping you in your journey, whatever that looks like, whatever that means, because we have different pieces. Purpose changes, right? So I did a workshop. I took ten lessons of leadership from my lens, and I did a deep dive in his class. And after I did the workshop in front of his class, he stopped me, says, you were phenomenal. I said, thank you. That felt really good. He goes, no, no, no, you were phenomenal. I retired in my thirties as a millionaire I traveled the world. I opened restaurants. I was CFO for a korean company, and I paid $10,000 a day to see people speak. You're as good as better than them. And I was like, what? That was a tipping point. Cause I trusted this person. He wasn't filling me up just to make me feel good, or. He was right to the heart, like, you're good. You need to really look into this and do this. Got the experience. So that was a seminal, seminal moment. I talk about it in eyes up. I talk about it, actually, chapter three, beyond the soccer pitch, that's. Talk about that journey. How Norman helped me, and how I talk about some of the events that happened during that workshop as well. Around. [00:15:12] Speaker B: Yeah, so that event specifically, like, let me relate it back to a book. Like, anyone could put out a book. I mean, I know. I think between us, we. I could probably rattle off, like, 50 people who have put out books and, like, either have had books put out for them or have self published books. So putting out a book is. It's not that it's easy, but, like, if you put out. If you're gonna put out your own book, I don't know, I'm like one of those self print things on Amazon. It's relatively easy. It's also relatively easy to call yourself a coach or a leadership consultant or one of those things. In fact, like, I gotta tell you, my eyes were rolled almost to the top of my head when people start going on about, like, you know, I'm gonna become a coach or this or that. Not, because, listen, do whatever you want. I don't care. But it's whether or not people have what it takes to get in front of a group of people and say something that's actionable and relevant to them and that it can connect to. And, you know, again, it's like, if I think of music, it's like, yeah, I think everyone should play an instrument. I think everyone should play in a band. I think everyone should go on tour and do that. Do I think that I'm going to go to every single show of every single band that comes to town? Hell, no. Absolutely not. I want to know the band that's going to move me, that I'm psyched on that I think are like, are about it, you know, all that stuff. So there's nothing wrong with people going out and doing it, but there's got to be that moment where you recognize you actually are good at it and you actually have something of value to say. So you get this really strong endorsement from this person. It's like, damn, you're, like, really good. But there's a big difference from, like, going out and getting that endorsement to being about it and doing it and making it a lifestyle, because now you're in the stage where it's become a lifestyle. So what happened after that? How did you make it a part of your life? [00:16:54] Speaker A: I started. So I did the first workshop with him. The word got out around campus because there were students in the class that were athletes, and our swim team coach asked if I would do a workshop for her team, and then the baseball coach. So the other groups on campus asked me to do. So next thing you know, I'm rehearsing, I'm practicing it, I'm doing it, and I'm refining it, and I'm connecting with the audience, and I'm connecting with the group. And they're feeling good about it. And they're seeing how this discussion, how the questions that I ask, because it is a workshop that I do on leadership, how they can look at their lives and start imagining and changing what they are doing currently and how they can impact other people. So I started doing it. I think it's really important to get your hands dirty. So, as a musician, and you're an accomplished musician, you don't just pick up your instrument and start going on stage and touring. You put in hours and hours of work with your group. And once you felt, hey, I got this down, I like it. I feel good about it. And you tested it. And then you get in your rhythm, and then when you're in your rhythm, then you flow. Right? And then you perform, and it's authentic, and your audience feels, and they know you're real. They know you're not full of it. Right. So the same thing. The more I did that, the more I changed a little bit of what I was doing. Changed a lot of what I was doing, made sure I was listening, always following up with questions. So I'm one that asks people, too, you know, how did that feel? Like folks that are reading my book getting a lot of really good feedback on the book. So the question I ask, folks is, is there one or two things that resonated with you from the book? What is it that you took away? Because I want to see if that is. What is it that's impactful? If that message is impactful, I want to make sure that I'm articulating that to other folks. Does that make sense? [00:18:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:48] Speaker A: That I'm touching. So it. So it started happening just organically I wasn't like, oh, I'm going to go knock on your door and start doing leadership presentations and telling you what a great motivator I am. No, no, no. It was slowly cultivating and trying things and tweaking stuff, and it worked. But the reason I think it worked is I was doing it for my career. I didn't realize I've been doing all that as a professor. I taught sports, psych, philosophy, coaching, I think you remember from my background last time for 20 years. So I had this incubator classroom of high stress, high end, primarily division one athletes. Three future Olympians were in my class. Future Olympians. Gold, silver, and bronze. They were like, tell me right now, how am I going to get better? You know, I don't have time. Like, you know, really a. So it's like, well, you got to start small. You got to think about gratitude. You got to wake up in the morning and you got to think about, like, little baby. You got to do baby steps, right? So I'm going. I'm going sideways on you a little bit, but I don't know if that. If that answered your question. But I went sideways. [00:19:54] Speaker B: Totally answered my question, like, basically again, and I keep saying this, and I think someone, like, the audience might be like, do you really mean this? No, I really do mean it. Like, if someone feels like they got something to say in the leadership space, by all means, like, go for it. If someone thinks they got a. Got a book in them, by all means, go and write it. But one of the things that say is, like, go out, start a band, and also be prepared that maybe your band is going to suck and nobody is going to care. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. By all means, go and do it. But if you don't get lifted up, if you don't get taken on tour, if you don't get the big opportunities, it could be for a variety of reasons, and it could be for all sorts of reasons that suck, that people don't get. Like, kind of get that spotlight or don't get that moment. But it also could start with, maybe what you're doing just sucks. Maybe it doesn't resonate. Maybe you're not good at what you're doing. Doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. It doesn't mean you shouldn't raise your voice. But if it's not working, adjust either. Have that learner's mind and get better and better and better and focus where you need to get better. Like, really hone your craft or take your skills and put them somewhere else. Everything doesn't need to be quick returns, but, like, when you find something and it starts generating a positive buzz and a positive moment, it's usually because you've got some kind of base level that's quite good at it, and you just need to take it from there. If you don't get the results that you want within, like, I don't know, like, six months or a year or two years, maybe you start focusing on different things. The reason I'm saying that is, like, the book space is crowded, the leadership space is crowded, the influencer space is crowded, and it's like, I don't know, maybe put that energy somewhere else. It sounds like your space, what you're doing is making a difference, and that's why you're able to land with this incredible book. Before we go any further, though, I'm real interested in your take on that, because I am taking a position here. It's like, by all means, raise your voice, say what you're going to say, but be prepared that maybe your voice, maybe your voice isn't doing what you hoped it would do. [00:21:55] Speaker A: My take is, I'm with you. I've done two book launches, one in New York on the 6th, and I did one here at Bard, actually, on Thursday at Bart College, where I am. And one of the questions in the audience, because I talked about. About the five p's, we'll talk about that shortly, I'm sure. And the fifth one is persistence and not giving up. And then someone in the audience asked, well, when do you know? What if you bang your head against the wall, right? Do you never give up? I go, oh, no, hold on. I think it's part of your gut. Going with your gut in your brain, like, sensing it. And my answer was this, is that with every big decision, I had a fantastic mentor once that used to say, this is when you're making a big life decision. You go 50% with your heart and 50% with your brain. If you go all with your heart, you just might miss something really big, rationally, that's going to be like, whoa, I didn't even think about that. That was super dumb, right? If you go all your brain, life's going to be boring. That's really boring to be logical in everything you do. So half and half, and if it feels good for me, I discovered I'm 60 with the heart, and I'm 40 with the brain. I'm like, I'll lean on that emotion more, you know, I'll take that risk. Now. I'm, you know, let me. Whatever it feels good. It might be not less on the rational, right. But my answer to him at the end of the day was, at some point, you got to pivot. At some point, you want to pivot, and pivot means I'm not good enough in this, or I got to try another way, or look, you know, find another way around this wall. I'm trying to climb around it, underneath it, dig a hole underneath, get a bigger ladder, or you know what? I'm going to go different direction. So pivoting and recognizing when it's time to move on and when it's time to maintain is important work. [00:23:43] Speaker B: Totally. The way that I would relate that to how I talk about things is. Is the current return that you're getting on your energy investment, making your life better or worse. So, like, beautiful. When I was starting cadence and kind of being in this space, I already had, like, a name in the industry, so I was pretty good, but I had to work crazy hours. I didn't intend to start cadence. Like, it was literally one of my clients. It was a little similar to your story. I had been working at a different leadership firm, and, in fact, even getting into, like, the leadership space, it wasn't. I had kind of got convinced by someone that I just randomly met to try it, and so I tried it, and it was fine. I didn't like the company I was working at, and I'd been there for a number of years, and I just felt like a real disconnect from them, not just about the type of work that they were doing. I didn't believe it was leadership. I believed it was communication. And they were just like. They were, like, marketing themselves in a way that I disagreed with. They were calling themselves leadership, but it was really like a communication firm. So I had ended up working, kind of developing my own practice within their practice, because I was just going. I was being drawn by the clients, what the clients needed. So one day, I was in Atlanta, Georgia, and I was having a dinner, and this client, there's a big group of people, and client leaned over to me and said, hey, when are you going to start your own company? And I said, well, what do you mean? He's like, well, clearly what you do is way different than what your company does. I can't even remember the name of your company. I just know you. When does your company start? And within six months, I had my own. Anyway, there's a lot of stuff that happened in between. I had my own company. But when I came in and I started cadence, dude, probably the first two years, two or three years, I was working insane days, like twelve hour days, 14 hours days, because I had clients, like, all over North America. So, like, I was starting my morning. I was starting work at 06:00 a.m. Like, not my not waking up at 06:00 a.m. I was starting work at 06:00 a.m. Because the east coast was at work. And then I was going until five, five pm here. I was, like, seeing people on the phone, virtually all this stuff. And the energy that I was putting into it, the energy investment was exhausting, but it was, the return on it was huge. Like, I was putting together this business. I was getting all this positive feedback. I was psyched. I was really, really, really enjoying it. But it was two or three years of, like, the most brutal, brutal grind that had tons of benefits, but some costs. Now, if I inverted that, what if I was putting in those hours, but I was getting very, very little return? Like, I wasn't making good money, I wasn't getting positive feedback from clients. Nobody was listening to me. And one of those things where it's like, I love persistence. I'm. I am not a, I am not a quitter by any means, but you got to know where you put your energy. Life is so, so short, and everyone's potential to do great things is massive. Like, no matter who you are, your potential to do great things, either at like a. Just a community level, like, relational level with your friends and family, to, like, a global level, everyone's got this huge opportunity to do great things. But if you don't find your thing, or if you're really invested in something, you've got this dream. I want to be this, or I want to be that. That's sick. That's awesome. Go for it. But if at some point, the tipping point of how much energy you're putting in is starting to go in the opposite direction of how much current life enjoyment you're getting as a return, then maybe it's time to pivot. And again, I want people to raise their voices and be part of whatever conversation they want to be a part of. But if no one's listening and you're not, mate, you're not getting that return, then maybe it is time to pivot. [00:27:28] Speaker A: I like that. I just wrote that down from my own notes. Thank you for sharing that. That's where you do some self assessment, right? And you reevaluate and you look in the mirror, using that, that terminology of, you know, what does that feel like? And pausing. Pausing is a real critical, important point as we're doing all this stuff, is to pause and reflect and think, is it working? Where's the energy coming? I'm going to put in x number of weeks or months to it, and I'm going to set myself a timeline, see where I feel. Is it working? Yeah. Or if not, maybe that's the opportunity in time for me to pivot into something else. Thank you for that. [00:28:06] Speaker B: Well, for me, yeah, definitely. Well, for me, it's not about quitting. It's about, like, you know, there's this classic band, like, one of my favorite bands called Uniform choice, and they have a song called don't quit, and they literally just stole a poem that's in it, like, greeting cards about, like, not quitting. And then they, like, they just put them as if. As if it was their lyrics. And it's, like, amazing. Like, really classic. Like a classic punk story. Anyways, I always think of that song, and it's not that I think of, like, okay, I'm going to be a musician, and then it doesn't work out. And then if you stop doing that, that you have, like, I failed at life. No, that's crazy. Instead, it's like, be totally focused on something until it starts, like, until it stops lifting your life up, and then just take that energy and everything you've learned while doing that, and then just apply that to a degree off onto something else that gives you that life return. Because, like, life is to be lived. Life shouldn't be like, I will be happy when this thing happens. It should be like, no, you're happy and stoked all along the way. And if you're not happy and stoked all along the way, you're probably focusing on the wrong thing. [00:29:16] Speaker A: I'm thinking about my 20 different jobs up to age 28 that I had and how each of those different jobs gave me that fuel, that wisdom, that drive. When I did finally discover this is what I wanted to do, it was like, yeah, I did. You know, I worked in a sand and stone quarry in the summer and almost got killed. That sucked. I hated doing that, but I learned a lot. I don't want to do that, man. I'm going to take my energy and put into that. So, yeah, I'm down with what you're saying. Thank you. [00:29:48] Speaker B: I know this is a kind of weird pivot, but let's go back to ghost riders because I have a real take on ghost riders. But so shout out to Dan. You rock. I had the chance to meet him. Great guy. Yep. Explain to everyone what a ghostwriter is. [00:30:03] Speaker A: So, ghostwriter is the one that essentially writes your story, writes your book. So she or he, that's their profession. They're literally geniuses. And you work with them, you contract with them through an agent, and they do most of the heavy lifting. Frankly, most of the heavy lifting. They take your ideas, your story, your content, and they work with you and put it in a, an outline form, put it in a way that it's going to be. There's hooks in the story. So is it going to be a linear story? Is it going to go back and forth? Depends on what, again, what you're. What your story is or what your book you're writing about. But they do, they do the lifting. Yeah. And then, so, for example, our process was this. I was in New York and Tivoli in the Hudson Valley, beautiful Hudson Valley, which I am right now at Bard College, and Dan was in Brooklyn. And we would meet once, we signed contracts, and we had a deal for eleven months, twice a week, Tuesdays and Thursdays, in the morning, he would give me information after we had outlined the book and say, TJ, let's talk about gratitude. Tomorrow, give me stories about gratitude. I was like, whoa. Okay. So that was the process that we used. I'd come up with something that was relevant or example story, and then the next morning, we would, you know, he would record into, he had a software program. When I would talk to him on the phone and my words would go into the program, and then the next day, he would take it and make it pop into something that was something that was enjoyable for the reader. And that went on. That was a, that was a process. And the way we worked and the way, I believe, from what he would share with me is we just kept on working. We didn't spend a ton of time, like re editing or fixing that chapter. We just went on to chapter two, three, four, and five. If there were some changes or additions I would make, I would make those changes, but we wouldn't go back and forth, back and forth. We would just continue with our flow until we got to the end of the book and then evaluating everything, looking everything. Does it make sense? Do we need to shift things around so that that's the role of a ghostwriter? [00:32:27] Speaker B: Is a ghostwriter. Is using a ghostwriter cheating? [00:32:33] Speaker A: I don't think so. I mean, I. I think it's. I don't think it's cheating. I think it's. If someone could get your message out for you in a better way. Yeah, let him get the message out if it's going to be worthwhile and worthy, I think. I don't believe it is his. He did such a good job around that. My two daughters, both separately, said, it's your voice, dad. You know, I didn't write it here, but when I hear it's your. It's your words, it's your voice talking to us and to people. And I also do the audiobook. And the audiobook is obviously really my voice because it's TJ's voice, but saying the messages and tweaking them. Yeah, I wouldn't say it's. I wouldn't say it's cheating, getting somebody to help you in what you're doing. It's like this event that we're doing. There's people that are helping you in what you're doing, setting this thing up. You don't need to do everything on your own. Right. So I wouldn't use the word cheating. [00:33:40] Speaker B: Neither would I. When I think of the whole concept of ghostwriters and how people can discuss. [00:33:51] Speaker A: That now, if you don't include the ghostwriter on your book, and it's like, oh, TJ is such a great writer, I'd say that would be cheating, because I had a. I had the option, by the way, of not including him in everything. It was just TJ Casteki's book. So the choices were, nobody knows who Dan is. Dan is on the inside cover buried somewhere, or Dan's on the front cover. So let me qualify that. If you didn't know about Dan, we're not talking about ghost writers right now. You think, I'm such a great writer, man, and I'm not. So I would say that would be cheating. [00:34:26] Speaker B: Okay. I love that distinction. So the way I look at it is like a producer. Like, I'm sure you've heard the. The term producer when people talk about records. Is that right? Do you know what a producer does? [00:34:39] Speaker A: They work their butt off, right? Don't they do a lot of work from. [00:34:43] Speaker B: Yeah, but do you. Do you know what they do? [00:34:46] Speaker A: I do not know what they do. [00:34:49] Speaker B: Okay, go ahead. [00:34:50] Speaker A: Go. [00:34:50] Speaker B: Producers. Producers are like ghostwriters, except it's normal to mention that someone's a producer. So the last record I put out, I had all these great ideas, and I was like, these are the best songs I've ever written. I'm a genius. Oh, my God. Like, I've. I've. I've gone to the peak of my writing ability. And I demoed them and I sent them out to two people. I'll leave, I'll leave, I'll leave both of them out of this conversation just so people don't, like, start doing what I did. One is a person that I know super well who's like the best songwriter I've ever met, like, that I've had a personal relationship with. And one of them is like someone who's iconic in the, in the world that I play in, that I have just the slightest relationship with. I sent both of them the tracks, the one who's the person that I have a personal relationship with. So I'm just saying, like, I'm sending them, like, hey, what's your feedback? And really what I'm saying is, tell me how great my song is. And this dude just is like, he starts sending me ims into messengers and he's like, this, this, this, and this dude just looked at this thing and it's almost like he's like, looking at, like, the code in the matrix. He's just like, hey, you know, like, you want to this, this and this if you want this thing. And he just pulls apart the song. And not in a terrible way, but like, just really practical ways. Like, this is too long. You need a bridge here, too many courses. This doesn't work here. You need something over there. And I took it and I was like, holy shit, like, I cannot play at that level. Like, I can, I can. I can write a cool song, but I can't write a great song. Like, I need someone to make that great. [00:36:25] Speaker A: Wow. [00:36:26] Speaker B: The person who I barely have a relationship with but is like, iconic. I actually said, hey, would you produce the record? And he was like, no. And I was like, hey, like, you know, like, this is a, this is a cash business, man. Like, I'll pay you. He's like, no, I'm not going to produce this. And I was like, damn. But it was like, here's what I'll do. And then song by song, just gave me, like, notes. Like, just like literal bullet point notes. And I took all of this feedback from these two sources. And it wasn't just the their feedback, but it was the way I took a step back and said, how do these people, these two different people think about music? And I kind of got, like, a rhythm of like, oh, well, this person looks at music this way and this person looks at music this way. And I just started applying both of those filters to everything I was writing musically, lyrically. And I just went through this process where I was like, okay, what would. Here's this song. What would this person think? What would this person think? Da da da da da da da. And I was able to, like, totally change my songwriting process. Now when I think about music, I think of it through. I apply these two filters, like, one and then the other. And so for me, producers take what someone's output is, and then they put it through the filter of, this is how you move people. This is how you connect to people. This is how you create, like, something that makes someone's foot tap. So when I think of a ghost writer, I think of that. When I think of someone who edits a book, that's someone who knows how to mix a record, where it's like, oh, you make the sound. This sound should be here. The bass drum should be higher here. Like, they figure that out. The art of the mixing and then the mastering is like a whole other, like, weirdo like world. That. That also is, like a total art form. I just think of a ghostwriter as a producer. And in music, you should have a producer, and you want to work with, like, a famous producer, you know, want to work with, like a Rick Rubin or something like that. Someone who likes. Is known for their production, but in terms of, like, book writing, it seems like when it comes to ghost writers, people are like, oh, yeah, well, they had a ghostwriter. It's like, damn, I want a ghostwriter. I want someone who's going to produce my thinking, because I'm not a writer. I don't know how to write a book. [00:38:37] Speaker A: Yes, that's exactly what. That would be, what Dan's role was, and that's a ghostwriter doing all that stuff. [00:38:45] Speaker B: So he took your ideas and was like, this, this, and this. Nobody's going to care about this. This would be good. You should focus on this, like that kind of thing, right? [00:38:53] Speaker A: And he started, I mean, he started. When he goes, let me. Let me just put together a couple, two pages for you, and I'm going to, if you're cool about it, I'll run it by my agent. I'm like, I don't know. Okay. And he starts, he says, this is 2015 World cup final. Women's World cup final. US, Japan. In Canada, Carly Lori, the captain of the US team, is slamming down the midfield. She looks up and she spots a japanese keeper off her line, and from 52 yards away, she drives the ball in the air into the side netting. Meanwhile, TJ Kosteki is 3000 miles away in his apartment in Brooklyn, New York with a smile on his face because he had a small part in that call. I'm like, wow, you got my attention. Like, that's how he started. Okay. Not like I'm gonna tell you about being a better human being. Are you listening? Now I have all the answers. I'm the answer man, you know, I'm so wise. Whatever. [00:39:52] Speaker B: I don't know. [00:39:53] Speaker A: It was like, wow, what part did he have in that? Like, what part did he have? I want to know, you know? So he. That's how he started it. And then we go into, well, it's little things. It's not these giant big things. But the result was this freaking amazing thing that happened because of little subtle shifts. So he was able to have that, you know, 40,000ft view that I couldn't bring. [00:40:19] Speaker B: That's it. Before we move forward, I just want to add one more piece. I used to play. I used to play in a band with this cat named Aaron Kreisberg, who's like a real character, like an absolute character. And one day we were just talking about music and he said two things to me. He was like, I had said something about the drums on the record they had put out before I joined the band. And I was like, yeah, there's just like, I don't know. There's something about the drums that are different. He was like, it's space. And I was like, what do you mean? He's like, you gotta. You gotta give everything space. And I don't think of, like, punk music like that. I think of everything super fast and, like, lots of crazy shit happening. He's like, you gotta give things space. Because without space, there's no vibe. Now, you could say that to anybody on the street and sound like a real, like, mysterious dude, you know? But, like, when he said it, I was like, he's like, when I say he's a character, I mean, this guy's a fucking character. But, like, when he said it to me, I was like, oh, this isn't you being a character. You actually know what you're talking about. Without space, there can't be a vibe. And, like, music, real, like, music that people connect to, like, brings a vibe with it, you know? It's like something distinct about it. It's the same about writing a book. Like, there's something distinct about this book. There's, like, a vibe to this book. And if you had just been like, I'm gonna come in and leadership you and I'm gonna tell you how to be a leader, then you're just like every other fucking book out there. This book has a vibe because you worked with a producer, and that producer helped identify the vibe and build off of it. [00:41:52] Speaker A: And you know what other cool part was? He was. We were both practicing what we're talking about, so we didn't write about the beautiful tree in your backyard, in that window over there, you know, which is gorgeous. Write about. We wrote. We wrote about how could be. How we could be better or help people become better. So the things that we're talking about, we're actually practicing ourselves and trying out and going, oh, this is not good today. I need to be better here. Yeah. So in that whole process, he applied it. He became a better father, coach, brother, colleague, and same thing with me. I'd like to think that I improved the quality of my own relationships with people from doing that. So. [00:42:33] Speaker B: Yeah, well, let's talk about the book, man. It's. I mean, first of all, it's a real book. It, like, feels like a real book. It looks great. The design is awesome. But this is a. It's a book that's written like a conversation with a friend. So let's unpack it. There's three parts, and I want to get into each part. I'm going to ask you about each part and how, from your life, from your life experience, you came up with the concept. And then we'll talk a little about. About each section, the things under each section, and then we'll go from there. Does that work for you? [00:43:08] Speaker A: Yeah, that'll work. Yeah. [00:43:10] Speaker B: Okay, so part one, change your lens. Change your life. So hearing that, it's like Pippi, you know, it's like, change my lens, changed my life. But you actually came to that through some very specific things in life. So tell us how you even came up with that concept. [00:43:28] Speaker A: So I got to be careful to give away the whole book because people are not going to read the book. But it started with an accident, a really bad accident that I had as a child. When I was. When I was twelve years old, I had an accident where I almost lost my eye. And I damaged my eye with a friend. We were building a fort, and a piece of the nail broke off and cut my pupil. Yeah. And went to the hospital with my mom. My mom was home at the time and went on the couch. He put a cold compress on my eye, and half hour later, it was still all blurry. I couldn't see. Went to the hospital. And I remember it honestly started in the emergency room, because all of a sudden, I got this right. So if you do this, your world starts looking very differently. You start noticing things that you might not have noticed with both eyes. And I noticed that, you know, the lights, one light was out, another one was really bright and how it was bothering me. And over time, I was in a hospital for end up one week and then they were going to actually take my eye out. And my dad drove me to New York to another hospital, a specialist hospital. And the best were very, very fortunate. He was in the medical industry, so he knew folks there and they took care of me. I was there for two weeks. But what I started seeing is that I could tell body language and people's expressions around. So when the doctor came in, I could tell on their face that it was, wasn't good news. Right then you have to open up their mouth. So I started already my perception became brighter, deeper, wider even as a child. And I started noticing little data points from people, emotions. Yeah, I mean, the good news is my eye was saved, not still damaged to this. To this to a significant degree. And it's corrected not 100% by any stretch, with glasses, but that's what began in terms of my change of perception. [00:45:49] Speaker B: Okay. Do you mind if I share a personal story in there that kind of relates. [00:45:56] Speaker A: This is about our stories? I would love to hear a personal story. [00:46:00] Speaker B: So you had this traumatic event as a kid that taught you how to pay attention to the world in a way that you weren't used to because something happened. And in like balancing yourself from that or accommodating from that, you learned this whole other skill set, this whole different way of looking at the world that when you're able to, like your eye ended up being okay, that you were able to carry forward with. Forward with. And it kind of informed your, your practice. [00:46:26] Speaker A: Yes. [00:46:28] Speaker B: So when I was a kid, my family moved to from Montreal where we were surrounded by family, my dad's family. And so in Montreal there's like a huge armenian community in Calgary, not so much. And we were this family where both my parents were immigrants. My dad had this like pointy beard, kind of like he had like a pointy goatee, kind of like a devil's beard almost. And we had these exotic names like a ram and a Roxy. And we moved there. And it was right when Canada was plunged into a serious recession. My dad ended up losing his job. And our home life was like, my parents are wonderful people, but our home life was very unpredictable. There was a lot of stuff going on and it was an unstable. Is maybe an unkind way of saying it, but it was, like, not a predictable home life. Plus, my sister and I were getting bullied like you would not believe. Like, we were getting picked on. I was getting fist fights and kids beating me up on the way home because we had these different names. Plus, I was, like, pretty, like, lippy kid. So if someone, like, was. Was pressing on me, if someone was pushing on me, I'd push right back. But unfortunately, they're all, like, much larger than me and in groups. So I grew up in a way where I didn't know what was going to happen at any given moment. And I could be taking a beating. I could be fighting one on one. I could be fighting a bunch of kids. I could go home and there could be yelling and screaming. There could be nobody speaking. It was just a wild. It was a very challenging way to grow up. Wild maybe isn't the best way to say it. And also, you know, that's a lot of people's experiences, and people have a lot worse experiences and a lot better experiences. But what it taught me very early on was to become a study of people and situations. And so I was always observing things. I was observing, like, what one kid might kind of look at the other kid. I was observing how my teacher's reacting. I was observing what was going on in my house. And I became really skilled at kind of forecasting what was going to happen based on sourcing data from just my environment with very little questions asking. And that's really what set me up to become a therapist. It's what set me up to become a coach. It's what set me up to become a study of human nature. It was this, like, very challenging, awful experiences as having as a kid. And, yeah, there's, like, a lot of shit that I had to work out. And then I, you know, continued to work out as a result of, like, you know, trusted people and all those things. But I'd say that all of that early stuff is what set me up to be able to do something. So I think everyone's got some kind of version of, like, whether it's a physical thing or a social thing or, like, mental health concerns or living in poverty, many people have some kind of experience that sets them up to change their lens. But there's one thing about changing your lens and just kind of viewing the world in a different way. There's another thing about changing your lens and then changing your life. So where's the changing your life part come from? It? [00:49:33] Speaker A: Well, changing your life part comes in where how do you apply these experiences to help you feel fulfilled? How does your journey, your life journey, how does that transition into your fulfillment, into what you feel good about or want to accomplish or like, or what's. What makes your heart skip a beat? That's the terminology that I like to use in terms of, you know, purpose. So that we're a collection of experiences. Right. And hearing you share that is very similar to my experience. I'm first generation. My given name was Igor, so that was my given name. My middle name is Ihor. So I got bullied as a kid, too, so we had very similar experiences. TJ was a nickname my mom gave me when I was growing up in the neighborhood, and it stuck. And then I got legally changed eventually when I was 15 because I was getting bullied. So we've had some interesting, similar experiences because my parents are first gen from Ukraine. So in terms of how to. How that. Back to how that applies, it's. It's a collection of those experiences that you have and seeing how you could pivot that and help you and help others. And I like, and I think selflessness is a really important part. If you have my feeling. My belief system is, if you have something to offer that is important, I think we have a moral obligation to share it with other people. You have a gift. You have a gift in your experience, all the things that you've done, the tapestry of your life, being a therapist, a musician, and what you just shared at the beginning. So that gift is all that collection of experiences and how you're taking that and how you're applying it to your own life, to your family life, now and soon to be married and to your clients that you're working with one on one, is that. That's the story of how do you take that and you apply it? And how does everyone who's listening to this apply the experiences that you've had and make them work for you? Because we can. We talk about failure and success, right? You know, there's expressions that I like to go, you either win or you learn. You win or learn, right? Failure is an opportunity to grow. To grow. I haven't come up with that. You know, smarter people than I. But it's true, if you look at it a lens, what's the opportunity for you to grow and you, your collection of those experiences? Your lens is wide, deep, and bright. And from that, you took these paths and these journeys, and now you're applying all those experiences in your work. So that would be my response to folks that are listening to this and the conversations that I have with people is, look at your collection, collection of experiences that you've had. I know one thing. I've had a lot of really crappy coaches in my life. More than enough. You know what I decided? I'm not going to do it that way. I'm not going to coach like that. That's one of the things I promised myself. So all those lousy experiences. Or you could say, that's the only way I know how to do it. There's a lot of choices. But again, keeping your lens wide open, bright and deep, that's where you start really processing what makes sense and what doesn't. Throwing things out. [00:52:45] Speaker B: All right, let's get to part two. I always chuckle when I look at books because books are like leadership books, because leadership books. And I understand this, but it's like the three rules of this or the ten rules of that, and it makes me laugh, because it's like, anyone who's a study of leadership stuff has got to be like, oh, my God. Like, which philosophy do I pull? Is it the three rules of this? The five rules of this? The seven rules of this, where I always boil it down, is, like, how practical? Like, is it practical? Is it actionable? Is it, like, got some theory? But that theory can actually be put into, like, this is, like, a practical thing. So what I love about the seven lessons of great leadership is they're very practical. So, how did you come up. Before you even get into what the lessons are, how did you come up with these? [00:53:37] Speaker A: I came up with them from all the life work that I've done with teaching. So, I was. For 20 years, I was a professor, adjunct professor, because my full time gig was, I was the men's division one soccer coach at LIU Brooklyn. I started the sport management program there, and I taught sports psych, philosophy of coaching, and sport management. So they mentioned earlier in our conversation, I had this laboratory that I could work with motivated, high end, type a, division one scholarship. Most scholarship athletes. So in that space, they were always challenging me and pushing back at me, which was great. They were like, okay, we're gonna drink the Kool Aid. Your Kool Aid. No. And I had them from the islands, from Jamaica, from Mexico, from Sweden, Sweden, from Norway. You know, I had a whole tapestry of really interesting people in the classroom. So that's where these ten came from. And, by the way, there could be 20. There's not just seven, because there could be 20 or 30 different lessons of leadership that we could talk about here. But by that time, everybody would be forgetting that. So I landed. I landed on 1010. Seemed to be the number that people understand, ten. And then we whittled it down to seven for the. For book. When I do my workshops, I really talk about ten. And I start with integrity. You know, that's the one that I always start with, is that striving to do the right thing? One of my favorite quotes is, if you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters. So it's about striving to do the right thing is what. That's how I define it. Not to be perfect or not make mistakes, but, you know, leaning in, giving integrity, listening to people, leaning in giving them space. So how are you modeling that right behavior? So that was, that's, that's the one we always start with. But it came from my collection of experiences, how people treated me, and I felt like they didn't treat me right or they treated someone else poorly. And I don't feel good about that. And even my own family, I had, my uncle was, you know, was very. Had big racial prejudice, and I never felt good going over his house, how he would treat people of color, ever. And I, and I really hurt me when I went in there. But he was an older figure and I couldn't confront him. And I remember. I remember the older he got, the less space I gave him and the less time I was with him because it was wrong and it didn't feel right. So recognizing that part about what's, you know, that, you know what, I want to lead a life that's going to be the best life I could leave and treat people the right way. Very simple. It's not, none of these are rocket science. They're just treating humanity and people with respect and treating them well and modeling to do the right thing. Yeah. [00:56:24] Speaker B: So could you run through the seven lessons and just like, we're not asking you to give away the book, but just tell us what the seven lessons are and if any kind of practical application that's just, like, clear to you for each one. [00:56:37] Speaker A: Sure. So integrity. I just kind of mentioned that part in terms of looking at doing the right thing. Right. I talked about that. Vision, perception and innovation. So that's another one. It's a huge part in terms of wide, bright and deep, having a vision, being perceptive and being innovative, so looking at not taking things verbatim. And you and I have these very rich conversations because we're questioning, questioning, does it make sense or not? And really having that lens of can it be better? How can I innovate? How can I innovate? How can I make this conversation better? How can I tweak this lesson? How can I help someone on mentoring? So innovation is a huge part and refreshing your lens, keeping your eyes wide open. So I talk about the, can I get to the five p's, by the way, can I do that? [00:57:23] Speaker B: Oh, please, please, anywhere you want to go. [00:57:25] Speaker A: The five p's are, and that's the model of the program. Perceived process, plan, perform and persist. I don't know if you remember that from our last conversation. And the most important is perception and persistence. The wider, the brighter your perception. Deep, wide and deep and bright. Your ability to process, abstract a lot of information, plan, perform and persistence that when you're persistent about something, comes automatic. You have to think about it. When you're persistent about being perceptive, what I mean by that, try to judge less and accept more. Because since the origin of man, fight or flight, we're always protecting. We're very cautious when we meet people because we would be extinct if we didn't do that. So too oftentimes we meet someone, we too often put them in a box. And when we do that, we make some quick judgments and we miss the tapestry and beauty that every person has. So the five pieces about being open, listening and learning, right? When we do that, we're gathering information, innovation, gathering, we're learning and we're moving forward in life. So that's the application of the five P's to innovation and to growing and to learning. Okay, cool. Inspiration, motivating. So that's another one, is that leaders inspire and they motivate. They find they are the ones that have that high belief system, regardless of what's going on. And finding ways of inspiring people and motivating them is a huge part. And motivating through love, through care, through compassion, you can motivate. Through pain, you can motivate through discipline, of course that works and that's powerful. But in terms of something that's life sustaining, that's going to spread to others. When you motivate with love and you care, when you show that you care for someone, as a boss, as a colleague, there is very few limits to what people will do. When you know that you really invested in them as human beings, as people. Okay. Selflessness, finding ways of giving more and taking less, that's a big foundation of eyes up, is when we give, when we're selfless, we feel good about ourselves, you know, in our brain, what happens is that happiness goes up. When I'm doing something for someone. There's that really good feeling in my. In terms of what I'm doing for others. So finding ways that we can give more. And one of the things that I do often, I talk about is I pick up trash when I walk around the neighborhood and I put things away. It's, why am I doing it? Because it's the right thing to do, and I could do it. I have two hands. There's nothing I'm carrying right now. So finding ways in your own life to give more every day and keeping your lens wide and bright. Purpose and meaning. We talk about purpose, finding purpose, or living purpose. Correct. Because how do we. How are you living your purpose? How are you discovering purpose? Creating a vision for yourself? We talked about that earlier in our conversation, that this is, if you have a goal to, as a musician or a writer or whatever you're doing, that you're putting your time into it. Are you getting the return? Right. You use the return, the energy, and is there a life enjoyment of that return? So that's purpose and meaning is, how do you form that purpose in meaning? And what are the things that you're doing in your life that are going to validate that? And I share the stories of Norman early on that Norman was like, TJ, this is a space you need to be in, and you feel good about this. You've just motivated myself and the students in my class, so you might want to think about putting time into this. So I didn't recognize it myself. Right. Someone else helped me recognize that part. Positivity is a huge part, is being positive, is being optimistic. All the research suggests, not just suggests, it demonstrates that happy, positive people are innovative people. When you're in a joyful state, you innovate, you create, and you succeed. So seeing yourself in a positive state, and that's a huge part of, is how do you get yourself in a positive state? So I do a morning grateful. Listen, I think I shared that with you last time a little bit about my morning. So I talk about an eyes up that I haven't had a bad day in eight years. Now it's nine years because it books a year old. Why? Because when I wake up every morning, I meditate and I pray every morning. First thing I do is I. When I wake up, I'm spiritual. You know, I thank the Lord for being alive. Thank somebody, Buddha, Allah, the universe, whoever it is. Just be grateful that you're alive and for the air that I breathe and I breathe oxygen because oxygen gives us life. The last thing we're going to have before we pass on this planet is the air that I breathe. So when I wake up every morning, or am, I am grateful that I have oxygen when I wake up to be alive and I meditate, it fills my lungs, only takes a few minutes. My heart three times, my veins and my brain. And then the final thing I do is I think about three people, situations. What happened to me the day before that I'm most thankful for. What am I most grateful for? That happened to me. So when I wake up tomorrow morning, it's going to be you. When I wake up, I know right away the conversation we're having, reconnecting with you, which I've been looking forward to, listening to you on your podcast, seeing you in person, how you've changed, the things that you've done with your body, that brings me right now, it's bringing me joy. So that's the first thing. The second thing is my doctor's appointment. I just have my cardiologist in terms of him helping me. The third thing, I don't know. Still an early day here. So my day tomorrow. What kind of a day am I going to have tomorrow? [01:03:28] Speaker B: A good one, man. [01:03:29] Speaker A: No, I don't have good days. [01:03:31] Speaker B: Great days. [01:03:32] Speaker A: Thank you. You're paying attention. I have great days. Only great days. Now, sometimes they go like this. All right, sometimes lousy things happen, but I don't let those things define what it's going to be, my overall day. So. And because of that, my lens is I'm looking for the best in others. I'm helping them, too. There might be critical thinking or things in their journey, but I'm seeking out the best in people and situations. And my energy that I give is contagious. And I attract the right people, and I give energy to people and lift them up. This is what's happened, and it's real and you feel it. It's not a made up thing. And then the last one. Where are we here? I think I got communication, listening. So communication, listening is important. What we're doing right now, you're providing me this beautiful space. We talked about the three l's. Look, listen and learn. Great life leaders in life are those that listen. We're having conversations. You're offering your story, I'm offering my story. And we're also giving each other space and knowing when to offer a story and when to listen and land on that part. So the three l's, look, listen, and learn, and then the final one that I believe is crucially important is confidence and belief. The huge separators of success is folks that have confidence and belief in themselves. When you have confidence in belief in yourself, there's no limit to what you can accomplish. One of my favorite expressions is, if you think you can or you think you can't, you're right. Make sure you think you can. So part of confidence and belief. I talk about visualization. Positive self talk. All right. Terms like positive self talk. I can do that. I can see myself doing this. I got this. Next one's good. When you make a mistake. So, if you're an athlete and you make a mistake, you, ball goes out of bounds. If you're passing volleyball, next one's good. Visualization. When you're ready to speak in front of a group, as a director, as a CEO, as a president, see yourself connecting with everyone in that group. If you're gonna have a hard conversation with someone, think about the words you're gonna use, how you're gonna make sure you're speaking and disarming that individual in the conversation and not being confrontational, perhaps. But whatever it is that your approach is, visualize yourself. See yourself doing that, and then go forth and do it. Every olympic athlete uses visualization. Everyone before they perform. Actors, writers, singers. So that's a synopsis of what the seven lessons are. [01:06:14] Speaker B: Heck, yeah. All right, I've got some. Some comments on that. Let's go to the. Let's go to the great days and positive people. I've got a different take. And the performance of positive people. Are you. Are you familiar with the concept of emotional labor? [01:06:35] Speaker A: I'm not. [01:06:37] Speaker B: Okay, so emotional labor. And it has kind of been taken by modern times, and, you know, I'd say changed the meaning, but, like, just from, like, an old school kind of psychological thing. Emotional labor is the effort it takes to hold back your reaction to something that's emotionally provocative. And it could be something good or it could be something bad. So let's say you and me are sitting in a room, and Mike comes in the room, and Mike is. Is carrying a, you know, an iced coffee, and he trips, and he spills the iced coffee all over himself in the most, like, dramatic of ways. He's not hurt at all. Do you laugh? [01:07:23] Speaker A: Yes. [01:07:24] Speaker B: Okay, we're both laughing, right? [01:07:27] Speaker A: Yes. [01:07:27] Speaker B: Because Mike is our. Mike is our friend. Something super comedic just happened, right? [01:07:31] Speaker A: Laughing. [01:07:32] Speaker B: So let's say we're at work. The exact same thing happens, but with one of our work colleagues, who we don't really know very well. And it's kind of an important meeting. Do we laugh, speaker one? [01:07:44] Speaker A: I think I. Yes, I would. I would laugh again. I would. I would laugh again. I don't know if you're supposed to. I don't know if you're supposed to laugh, but, yes, I would. I would laugh. Maybe I'm not supposed, but I will laugh. [01:07:54] Speaker B: Well, no, it's not. It's not. It's not a right or a wrong here. It's not a right or wrong question. Okay, so you would laugh. You know what I would do? I would push down my laughter. I'd, like, push it down. I push down my reaction, and then as soon as you and I left, I'd be like, oh, my God, did you see what that person. And I would push it down. Cause I'm in a different scenario. If it's just you and me and we're hanging out with Mike. Mike's our buddy. Mike trips. He's probably laughing, too. Like, we're all kind of clowning on each other, right? If I'm in a professional setting, I know the person's embarrassed. There's other eyes. I don't want to shame the person. Gotcha. [01:08:27] Speaker A: Thank you. [01:08:27] Speaker B: I'm pushing down my laughter. It doesn't mean it's not funny. It just means that the environment we're in is different. And I'm taking into account the environment so that whether or not we push down our reaction to something has a lot to do with the environment we're in and what the situation is. And sometimes we push down something entirely. Other times we push something down halfway and we transform it into something else. So, for example, let's say someone is being a total jerk at work. Let's say one of my friends is being a jerk just in life. So you and me, and we're going to use Mike here as an example again. Mike, I'm sorry. You're going to be the jerk in this situation. You know, let's say the three of us are hanging out and Mike is being a jerk, and he's saying things that are super uncool. You or I are going to respond to him like, hey, man, what the fuck are you doing? And, like, we're going to respond to force with force, maybe, like, you know, in that same thing. But let's say we're in a workspace, and. And someone that we work with, it could be a peer, or it could be a report, or even someone more senior is being a jerk. Okay. The environment is different. We're not going to push down our reaction all the way. But neither. But, uh. But nor are we just going to blast off on the person. We're going to push it down halfway and transform into something else. For example, it'd be like, hey, I just want to check in. Um, I feel the way that you're speaking about this is pretty inappropriate. Or, hey, you know, it seems like the temperature's getting hot. Um, that the conversation is getting a little argumentative, what's going on? So rather than responding with force to force or pushing all the way down, we're taking that. That reaction, pushing it down halfway, and we're transforming it into something. So the difference between just reacting to something versus pushing it all the way down or pushing it down halfway and transforming it. That piece is emotional labor. Right? The effort it takes to either push down a response or transform a response into something that's useful in that environment. Emotional labor is something we all experience every day. Every single day. You drive somewhere, people are cutting you off, you're getting stuck in traffic, all that. You're managing your reactions to things. If you get caught up in road rage, there's no emotional labor because you're just freaking out. You're expressing your anger. If you're pushing down your anger or managing your anger and transforming it into something, that's emotional labor. So everybody's got a different amount of emotional labor they can carry through the day. So people who are really experienced leaders and who are really experienced with working all sorts, with all sorts of different kinds of people and all sorts of different kinds of temperaments typically can manage a lot of emotional labor. That means throughout the day, a bunch of stuff can happen that they can handle, and they don't get tipped over the line where they become emotionally reactive. People who are not as experienced with lots of different kinds of people or who work with just the same people all the time, and they're just kind of in that space. And it can be different because there's personal life involved. But basically, some people can manage a ton of emotional labor. Some people can manage very little. It doesn't mean a person's a good person or a bad person. It just means about how soon they get reactive. So here's the how. I'd encourage you to think about it. Imagine you're holding a dumbbell in front of you, and for argument's sake, TJ, you can carry 20 pounds of emotional labor. You're really good at handling that in a day. But let's say I can only manage five pounds so throughout the day, every time something happens and you push down your reaction to it, it just adds a little bit of weight. You start the day with zero because you've done your meditation practice, you've been focused, focusing on appreciation. So you start the day with zero weight, and then five or six or seven things happen throughout the day where you add a little bit of weight on here. Well, because you're really good at managing emotional labor. Let's say you end the day with ten pounds of emotional labor, but you can carry 20. It's no big deal. You're fine. That night you go to sleep, you have a great sleep. The next morning, you do your practice, you do your meditation. You start that day with a fresh arm, no weight on it. You go about it. But me, I can only carry five pounds of emotional labor. I got a bunch of stuff that happens early in the day, and by midday, I'm already at three and a half pounds, and my arm is getting tired. My arm is maybe starting to shake. Some other things happen. I'm at four and a half pounds. On my drive home, I get cut off. I get stuck in, like, two hour traffic. I'm now at eight pounds. I can't carry eight pounds of labor. My arm starts coming down. The difference between the person who doesn't get reactive in traffic and the difference between someone who does can simply be that person just had that extra two pounds of emotional labor they couldn't carry, and that arm came down. When your arm comes down, that's when you become reactive. So when it comes to, like, having great days all the time, I don't want to dispute that you can. You can do that. I think it has a lot to do with how much emotional labor someone can carry in a day and the practice that they do. Like, the nature of sleep they get, how they manage their diet, their exercise, their social life, the kind of relationships they have in the community, with their friends, with their family, do they have a spiritual practice? All those things give someone more of ability to carry weight. Especially because you've been very fortunate to have so much experience with so many different people, especially high performing athletes, your ability to carry a ton of weight is probably very significant. It means it's easier to have a great day. People who don't have that discipline, who don't have that same ability to carry a lot of weight. Having a great day consistently is actually very, very difficult because they become emotionally reactive, much easier. And where I encourage people to think about is, like, how much emotional labor can you carry? And how good are you at taking care of you? Because that means you can live, like, consistently great days and have more consistency in that greatness if you have a practice of self care, if you know what it means to, like, when am I at three? When am I at four? When am I at five pounds? What do I like when my arm comes down? So my predictability model is kind of like where I push on that. And that doesn't have to do with, like, positive or negative people. It's just about emotional reactivity. So I'll stop there. What are your thoughts? [01:14:35] Speaker A: Thank you for that. Thank you for that. That is, that's a very practical way of applying those ideas and those stressors. And it's logical. Absolutely. Makes sense, and I can see beneficial. Can I add to that? [01:14:47] Speaker B: Yeah, please. [01:14:48] Speaker A: I would add to it how you're perceiving those events that are happening to you is a big part. How you're perceiving, getting cut off, how you perceiving the guy beeping the horn or a gal beep the horn at you. How you're perceiving what it, what occurred. Well, I missed the train. Darn it. You know. You know, I missed the train and I'm going to be here for another half hour. That sucks. But there's another guy that missed the train right here. So maybe I engage that person in a conversation and start having a conversation with this person and connecting with that person. Man, you're going to. Yeah. What a bummer. Yeah. Oh, you know, I need a ride. I don't have a ride. You need a ride. I'll give you a ride when I, when I, when we get there because, yeah, I was going to try to call an uber. Now it's going to be too late. So all sudden you're reframing what happened there. In that event, instead of putting your angst and your stress into what occurred, to pivoting into something else that's around you. That's a way that I would encourage folks to look at that. I used to get really pissed when people were beeping the horn or passing me on the highway. I'm like, what a bunch of jerks. Now you know how I thought about maybe it's an emergency, maybe this guy's got to get somewhere. Wife, sibling, late for something. I'm going to give them grace. I'm not going to say you passing me up. What are you doing beeping hard at me? So looking and pivoting and perceiving the event in a different way has helped me where I don't get pissed off when people pass me up anymore. I just, I used to all the time in the city. I happen in the city. I remember when I had the conversation with you, I was in New York coming from Brooklyn and Manhattan took me forever. And I'm just, I was in traffic. I gave myself enough time, so instead I was looking around and kind of processing things that were around. So looking at your situation and also pausing and reflecting, what can I. Can I change this or not? Am I able to change or not? And letting go of the things that you can't control? Because a big part of our stress is, gosh, I wish I could control this, or I thought I had this under control and damn it, and it exploded. But when things get out of your hand and you can't control it, can we put that aside and think about the things you can? You could always decide how you can respond to things. You always have that power to do that and reminding people they have that ability and the power to respond and they own that and not to let these other things. That has helped me when I've mentored folks and it's helped me in my own journey to decide when things happen. I would add that to your model, which I love. Your model. That would be my response. [01:17:27] Speaker B: Heck, yeah, I love that. I also want to push on the positivity comment where he's been like, hey, studies show that people who are more joyful, more happy, or more creative, I'm going to add a take. I don't disagree with that, but I'm going to add a take to it. So I like this kind of, I'm known to play this kind of hardcore, which is kind of like positive hardcore kind of music we play. And I cringe at that terminology, but more so it's like a style of music that is based more on kind of like, you know, the good things in life or kind of becoming a better person or any of these things. And I'd always kind of considered myself to be this really positive person. And I've got this friend Thomas, who one day said to me, he's like, you know, you're not positive. He's like, you're not like a positive guy. You're actually extremely negative. And I was like, oh, what? He's like, yeah, man. You're always talking about the problems and you're kind of angry about stuff. You're always thinking about these injustices. You're always focusing on these negative things. He's like, you know, you're actually kind of, like, a dark cloud. And I was like, holy shit, I can't believe this. But the thing is, he was totally right. And it was, like, really? And also, like, it wasn't said in, like, a very kind way. It was said, like, you know, your friends are just kind of, like, taking the piss out of each other. He's just like, oh, mister, like, youth group positive guy. He's like, you're really fucking negative. I was like, oh. But I thought about it a lot afterwards, and he was totally right. And it had a lot to do with how I grew up in life and always observing the situation, because you think at any second things could go bad, right? So it's like, I'm always observing things, and I was, like, kind of critiquing things and having negative takes on things, and I wasn't happy. I wasn't happy in my life. I was actually, like, a very, very unhappy person, which is funny that I was, like, playing this, like, uplifting music all about these things, but I was, like, focused really on the negative stuff in life. And from there, I kind of developed this thinking about. About types of mindsets. And so I think both of these mindsets could be very. Could be very positive as long as there's, like, good leadership or good mentorship or good coaching in. So we'll talk about, like, two concepts, champions and detractors. One sounds like a good per. Like a good person, and the other one sounds like a total shithead, like, ugh, the detractor. And actually, there are further versions of that that I say chaotic champion. Chaotic detractor, where I think you're playing more in those spaces, but more from just like, a pragmatic space. This is what I mean. A pragmatic champion is what I think traditionally might. People might think of as a positive person. A trag. A pragmatic detractor, though I actually totally view as being a positive verse person person if they have a good mentor, a good coach, or a good leader. So I'll give you an example. A pragmatic champion is achievement based. A pragmatic detractor is avoidance based. And it just means if you put a situation in front of them or a challenge in front of them or a change in front of them, a pragmatic champion is already thinking of, like, oh, this is how we're going to deal with that. This is where we're going to go with this. They're thinking about the outcomes. They're going to think about all the good things that come from it. They'll think about the way through it. A pragmatic detractor is going to think of a nightmare scenario. All the bad things are going to happen, all the things we need to avoid. They are going to think about all of the terrible stuff. But the thing with both of them is they both are focused on achieving the goal. It just one person wants to process the good stuff where the other one wants to process the nightmare scenario stuff. And in both cases, once the person, the pragmatic champion, processes the good stuff, they'll then be able to talk about all the challenges, all the nightmare scenarios. They just psychologically, they want to go towards the good stuff first. The pragmatic detractor wants to process the negative stuff, and then they can easily shift into all the good stuff. It's just a processing thing. One person's going to focus on the achievement, the other one's going to focus on the avoidance. So here's the example. Let's say someone said to you and me, hey, we're going to run a marathon next year. So in February of 2025, we are going to run a marathon. If you're an achievement based thinker, you're going to be like, well, that's amazing. I just came from my doctor. I got this feedback. I'll probably be able to get into really great shape. I'll probably end up making new relationships, new running relationships. I'm going to. Maybe I'll involve my friends and family in this kind of stuff. Running will become a new hobby. Maybe I'll start traveling for marathons. You're already going to be thinking that way because you're a pragmatic or a pragmatic champion. I, on the other hand, are going to be like, okay, I don't like taking on things that I can't compete. So I've got a bad knee. I'm probably not going to be able to do this. And if I do this, if I try and do this, the chances that I'm going to let TJ down and our friend down are very high. I'm going to look foolish. I'm going to hurt my knee in a way where I'm going, never going to be able to recover from it. I'm going to be a quitter. I'm going to let everyone down. I don't want to be one of those marathon people that, like, pees themselves or poo's themselves on the marathon trail and looks totally crazy to do this, I'm going to have to take time away from my friends and my family because I'm going to have to train a lot. I'm not going to be as good as work. I'm not going to be able to play music as much. So I'm already thinking of all the negative things. But you and I are both going towards the same goal. We're going to run the marathon, but you're processing good stuff first, and then I'm processing the bad stuff. When I process the bad stuff, then I can process the good stuff. And when you process the good stuff, you can process the bad stuff. Being positive isn't just about being like, hey, this is cool. Being positive is more so, like this goal, we're going to hit this goal, but I've got to process in the way that I do it to get there. And that's the way that I look at positivity. I try and give it a little bit more nuance. As someone who might come across as negative is probably just a pragmatic detractor. They just need to process the challenges first. And if you pair a pragmatic champion with a pragmatic detractor, you have the best team you possibly can, because one is always opportunity focused and the other one is always avoiding the real practical things that could happen. But the key is leadership. Someone who is a pragmatic detractor, if they're not led well, they'll become overtly focused in negativity. I became overtly focused on negativity because I didn't have a mentor, I didn't have a leader, I didn't have a coach. So I just got stuck in all the bad stuff. I became the smartest person in the room, the person who's, like, always focused on the negative stuff, the person who's always critiquing. And then when I started getting around people that actually could check me on that and give me feedback and actually refocus my thinking, it helped me take all the negative stuff and become an expert at seeing around the corners, forecasting outcomes, like all that kind of stuff, and then getting positive. For a pragmatic champion, they can get too stuck in the good stuff. They could get too stuck in all those things and not really be thinking of what the actual problems are, but a good coach or a leader will help them be able to forecast that stuff better. So it's about the harnessing of those two things. So I think positivity is like, it's a super important thing, but it's not like a one size fits all approach that, like, there's lots of different psychologies involved sorry. I know I talked a lot there. I just want to get your thinking on that. [01:24:54] Speaker A: 30 seconds ago, I was thinking my response was going to be one size fiddle. You said. That's what you said. Yeah, that's. That's my response. Yeah. And it's having that balance between the two. Having people check you is. Yeah, I'm down with that because I've been involved in different projects where I've had that other person in it that's like, TJ, we got to be more practical. We have to think about this. We have to think about these options. And, yes, we do. So the balance of the two is nirvana. Yeah. Yeah. [01:25:27] Speaker B: So my take on you is that you're a pragmatic champion. Is that right? Yes, I'm a pragmatic detractor. You put something new in front of me. I'm thinking of all the things that go sideways instantly. And if you and I were working a project together, it would be that, like, perfect balance, because you'd be like opportunity and I'd be avoidance, and we'd come together and we did it. [01:25:49] Speaker A: We would crush it. We would knock it out of the park. Yes. Yes. [01:25:54] Speaker B: All right, let's go to the third part of the book, finding the good in others. I got all sorts of thinking about this, but how did you come up with this from. In terms of your life experience, what made you focus on this? [01:26:09] Speaker A: It's. It's the. It's that lens of seeing. Seeing good things out of situations that are. That happen to you, that are not good situations. I think it shared earlier about struggle and failure is an opportunity to grow. Can be. Can be an opportunity to grow and how you perceive that struggle and that failure. So the six stories are actually, Dan is the one who said to me, you know all the stories that you talk about, how you've looked at situations in your life, and you've found ways of pivoting them and grabbing and gathering information to make you better, other people better is something. I think we need to pass that along. My mom, who's 91 years old when I gave her the book, was a refugee. She fled Ukraine during World War Two. She was in a DP camp for several years, and the glass is 99% empty in her lens of life. And when I gave her the book. So she calls me about 2 hours later when I was driving home, and she says, by the way, your book is really good. Like, thank you. She goes, when you told me you're writing a book, I was thinking, who cares about what you have to say, it's my mom. 91 year old mom. Right? Like, who cares about your leadership and about your. It's nice, but who cares? I go, mom, you're only on page 20, so hold on. Let's wait till you get to the rest of the book. Right? So she's read the book twice now, and she calls me on occasion, and the last time she called, she said, I don't know how you're able to look at the crap that's happened in your life and see the good. She goes, I can't do that. I can't do, I couldn't do that. I can't. I don't know how you, you're able to do it. This was because of my life lens. So it, how I came up with it. It's a process. Is it just a choice of seeing, you know, growing? Like, what can I gather from what did not feel good about them? And I mentioned earlier about my uncle and how, you know, how he treated people of color and I, man, I don't like that. It does, that doesn't feel good. I'm not going to do that. I'm going to. So I'm going to give people more grace and learn and lean in. And so kind of when something doesn't feel right, let me go into a different way and let me learn more about it. I'll give you an example like our penal system in America. I thought until I got to Bard that you commit a crime, you go into prison, go into jail, you serve your term, or you stay there forever because you're a bad guy, a bad girl, they let you out, and then everything works out. It doesn't work like that. It doesn't work that. We have over 2 million people in America in prisons, right? And it's, and it's all about money, making money. It's all privatized. That's what the system is. Within three years, up to 70% of folks that are released recidivists go back. It's a cycle. When I came to Bard, bard has a program called a bard BPI bard presentation where our faculty go in and teach incarcerated people. The bard degree, okay, over 600 have graduated. National rate is less than 3%. They're going back into their communities. They're teaching, they're paying taxes. They're helping their community better because they have an education. So a bard student started that. A 20 year old kid from New York, this guy Max Kanner started. And that story's in eyes up. In the book, the 20 year old kid said, the system sucks. It's broken. How can we fix? I'm gonna go teach. And there was a gentleman here, Paul Merinthal, who said, I know a warden, and let's try it. So this college kid went into talk about having the guts and the courage to work with incarcerated people. It's now a global program. We have 15 colleges throughout North America. They're partnering with this Africa. We've went to Africa now in the Middle east. Not me, but the BPI program. So in terms of seeing ways of helping and changing and making things better, I think it's when we look at stuff, how can we innovate? And you. And when you share with me how you look at problems and situations, you break down the things that don't work, like, this is not going to work. These are issues, but how do I make it work? So you've eliminated all these crappy things. It's not going to work because of this. Because time taken away from running your knee and what have you. All right? But now, how can I, if this is something, a goal of mine, how can I find the methodology to do this? So finding the good in others. Our story is about how initially I saw it one way, and then I looked at it a different way. And I talk about a Muslim from a bodega in Brooklyn. And 911, the 911, when that occurred, that there was, like, every muslim, there was this whole prejudice in Canada. But it's like we're labeling human beings, we're labeling people of a certain religion or race, and I never felt good either. And the story I talk about is a bodega guy in the corner, how I started building a relationship with him over time, and I learned how to say kaifaholic, which is, how are you? Shukran. Thank you. In Arabic. And when I first said that, he was like, oh, my goodness, you're connecting with me. You're connecting with me. So my lens changed over time, seeing this human being. And then he would be away for six months, and I would ask, where is he? He goes. He's back home feeding his family because his family is below the poverty rate. So my lens of how I looked at Arabs, perhaps Muslims, perhaps, right, changed from what I thought or what I perceived from the media, from other folks. So looking at things and finding and really doing a deeper dive, which is something that you do such a great job, which is such a joy to be with you here. Cause you're looking at things and you're really unpacking, and you're taking it apart and saying, does it make sense or doesn't make sense? And if it doesn't make sense, it doesn't feel good. What do I need to change in my own life and my own perception to make. To adjust that? So that was kind of went sideways on you a little bit, perhaps, in that story. [01:32:39] Speaker B: No, it's a great answer. I want to hit on something, and when I read this section, I think we agree on this, but I want to push on it. My question is, do you believe people are inherently good or bad? [01:32:56] Speaker A: Good. [01:32:58] Speaker B: Okay. So do you believe that if given the opportunity, people will act in good ways? [01:33:07] Speaker A: I believe that. I would like to believe that, and I wouldn't say believe that. [01:33:12] Speaker B: Okay, so my take is, people are neutral. They're neither good nor bad. [01:33:16] Speaker A: And you're right. You are. I agree with you. But I'm going to say I'd like to believe. So. I agree with you. People are definitely neutral. So that's a little bit. You go, TJ, what are you. Come on. Pick a damn side. I'd like to believe they are, but I believe people are neutral. Yes, we're definitely on the same page. [01:33:36] Speaker B: I have this client who I just think highest up, wonderful person. We were talking about this challenge that they were experiencing in their business, and they kept talking about people as being good or bad. Like, oh, that person's just a bad person. I was like, how do you know they're a bad person? They're like, well, they act like a jerk. I'm like, everyone is a jerk to someone. You know, like, it. Like, everyone's a villain in someone else's story. Like, most people at some point, and sometimes for most times for very good reasons, and other times for, like, totally absurd, like, crazy reasons. Um, as we're going back and forth with this. With this concept, I'm like, people are neutral, and they just could not accept. They're like, what do you mean, people are neutral? I'm like, people are neutral. I I have seen the most awful, like, people who just do the most awful things also do some of the most amazing, charitable kind, giving things, like, things that are out of character for them, like, things where everyone's like, can you believe so and so did this thing? And then I've also seen the most wonderful people. Like, kind people, really, like, predictably good. Like. Like, quote unquote good people do some of the sneakiest, crappiest things. And I just feel that, like, overall, people are neutral, and it's based on the environment they're in, the situation. They're working on how experienced they are, like, how much they, how much world experience they have, how much cross culture experience they have. And when people are like, so and so is a bad person, I always kind of, like, roll my eyes like, okay, like, so and so is a bad person. In these very specific kind of situations that you've had with them where they've acted in a way that doesn't align with what you, based on your worldview, personally, think is good. And when I say, like, people are neutral, I think it aligns with the idea is trying to find the good in people. That's what I liked about this section. It's like, well, even people that I think suck now, of course, as soon as I say this, people might be like, well, what about, like, racists? What about this? What about that? Listen, if we go to the most extreme version of every conversation, it's just such a waste of time. So leaving that extreme out, most people I could find good in if given the opportunity. And that's what I really liked about this section of the book, because it's like an act of pursuit. It's like, all right, we're in the same space together, or we're in exchange, or we're working on something. It behooves me to try and find the good in you, and I hope it behooves you to try and find the good in me. So I wanted to go with that thinking, with that idea of, like, it's an active pursuit, trying to find the good in people. [01:36:09] Speaker A: It is. And then you're going to, you're going to work, you're going to accomplish more. You're going to work together. You're going to support each other more. Right? And it's. And it's a piece of compromise, correct? Like negotiations. We compromise. So having that compromise and not standing on this side so far away, and you're. So you're over here finding ways to get into the middle. So, yeah, that's, that was one of my favorite. A couple folks have said that's their favorite chapter is finding the good in others, which is, again, it's leaning in. Leaning in and listening and having empathy, compassion, and also humility. Humility that I'm constantly growing and learning. I want to get better from this conversation. I don't want, I don't want to be telling you that I'm wiser. I have all these wives for everybody listening. No, no, no. I want to get better. I'm writing notes. I'm writing notes from what you're saying, because I want to apply these ideas into my own life. And I think if we pause and we think about that and we're reflective, we're going to be better human beings, and we're going to impact the people in our journey for them to be better, because we're going to have that humility and that desire to continue to grow and to learn. [01:37:24] Speaker B: I believe totally on one level. It can see, if you see something, like, find the good and everyone, it can seem like, blase, like, oh, yeah, find the good. But the idea, it's like, actually doing that as an active pursuit, it takes a lot of effort. I would prefer to be super lazy and just critique everyone from the most negative space because I'm like, I'm a pragmatic detractor, right? But also because I've been, like, a lightly led pragmatic detractor in my life, I tend to like towards quite negative. And I'll just look at people in the world or look at situations, be like, that person's full of shit. That person knows what they're talking about. That person's book sucks. And if I want to be lazy, I am just eating. Eating at the buffet of negativity. Like, yeah, everyone sucks but me. And really what that means deep down to the core is like, actually, I'm afraid, and I'm trying to make everyone look bad so I feel good about myself. But if I put a little effort into it, and I just put a little effort, I could be like, okay, I don't like how that person's coming across, but I bet there's something cool in that for me to pay attention to. Or you know what? Why don't I assume that person's coming from a good place? Or like you said earlier, like, that person cut me off. You know what? There's probably a good reason for it. I don't need to give it more thought than that. But that's an active pursuit. It's difficult to do. So if you have a lot of emotional labor in that day and that your arm is shaking, it's hard to be like, that person cut me off. It's probably for a good. It's probably for a good reason, because that's actually pushing down an emotional response to something. And it goes back to that concept of emotional labor. If you're at your best, it's easy to find. Not easy. It still takes effort. But finding the good in other people is more available to you. But if you're maxed out emotionally, finding the good in other people, especially if someone's annoying you is harder. And what I'd encourage people to think about is like, if you're going into situations with people who are challenging, a lot of self care in advance is going to help you enter that space with less emotional labor. And it heightens your ability to put yourself in the shoes of other people, to find the good of them and be in that space. Now, you said earlier, it's like I've got a good ability to go deep. That's because I'm a pragmatic detractor. I'm looking for the cracks in everything that's like my whole life has been about. So before we close off, I got a couple questions about mentorship. My team is quite taken with your book. Like, they're stoked on your book. And so one of our team, Tammy, was like, oh, could you ask him some questions that I'm interested in? So can I ask you some questions about mentorship? [01:39:48] Speaker A: Yes, please. [01:39:50] Speaker B: All right, so this one is from the always awesome Tammy. Tammy wants to know you're a big proponent of mentorship. How do you look at the difference between mentoring, coaching and being a manager? [01:40:04] Speaker A: So mentoring. Mentoring involves a lot of listening, it involves guidance, it involves pragmatic suggestions. Coaching is our amb. You know, I know what you're trying to do over here, but it's not working. Coaching is being more direct. I could see the reason I'm hard on you is because I can see I have a high expectation of your abilities and I believe that you can do it. So going in and letting you know that this is not the behavior that is acceptable behavior, this is the behavior that's acceptable. And I'm going to hold you to a high standard. I have a high standard and you have it in you. So that's coaching is more accepting criticism, embracing criticisms, having the folks around you accept criticism. So on my team here, for example, one of the things we do is embrace criticism. Don't be like, oh, damn, no fly zombie, be teflon. Coaching is being direct, all seeing the best in others, but embracing criticism where mentoring is more of a support, being a supporter. And then also you could flip into coaching. If someone's asking you, you really want me to help you? You want the hard stuff or you want me to just be a listening board? Which one? The manager is. A manager is one that is empowering others, finding ways to empower the people around you, giving them a voice to know that it's okay to make mistakes because we learn from mistakes. I trust you. You're going to grow from it. And I'm here available for you. I'm going to stop in and check in with you, make sure you're in a good place. But I'm not going to micromanage you because then all you're doing is you're really pleasing me if I'm doing that, if I'm not empowering you and micromanaging stifles innovation. So if Tammy's working for me and I'm micromanaging her and I'm just giving her stuff to do all the time and checking on her all the time and she's just pleasing me, she's not innovating, finding solutions to help our company be better, to help me be better, help her colleagues be better. So those are the three different ways that I process. Mentoring is more of support, side to side. Coaching is more of a manage coaching from up top and helping you and being the critical thinking part and giving you hard advice if it's necessary. And then the managing is empowering. Empowering you. [01:42:51] Speaker B: All right. When is a mentoring partnership over? How do you know and how do you address it? [01:42:57] Speaker A: Well, it's over when that person is ready for you to be coached, is ready for hard advice. [01:43:06] Speaker B: Okay. What makes someone a good mentee? So how do you choose who you're going to mentor? [01:43:15] Speaker A: Someone that has life experience, knows, knows the industry that you're in, perhaps knows you, knows things about you that you don't. So life experience, an expert in that field and someone that knows you and could and could really speak to who you are and understand who you are as a person and help you in that direction. [01:43:45] Speaker B: All right, last question for you, sir. How should every mentee own the relationship? So someone who's being mentored, how should they own the relationship? [01:43:56] Speaker A: They should. Their first p should be wide, bright and deep and open perception. If you are mentoring me and right now I feel like you're mentoring me, so this, I'm taking notes. So you, you are my mentor right now, realize it or not, because I trust you. I value who you are. You have experience, you have life experience and you're an expert and you care about me. So I am vulnerable and I am open. I want to be better and I don't want to be judging you or judging me at this point, because if I'm judging, then I'm going to be missing real powerful opportunities for me to grow and to change and be better. So having the vulnerability, having the humility to listen and take in that criticism is essential? [01:44:45] Speaker B: Heck, yeah. All right, man. Well, we're coming to the end here as we're closing off anything you want to say, anything that you want to share, and we'll. We'll include all your links and everything in the interview description. So anything that you want to share or hype up before we're closing off. [01:44:59] Speaker A: I'm just going to, you know, eyes up. You've already. Here it is behind me, right? There's. There's the book, and you got it in your hand. Please pick it up and look through it. I have gotten incredible messages from people. I have a mom in Oregon who reads a few pages to her five year old son, and she works for a world renowned Internet company. And she told me the next sentence. She was coaching one of her salespeople with the five P's to deliver a platform, and he applied the five p's and deliver it seamlessly. So here she's sharing it with a five year old son, those messages, and one of her employees. So I believe the book will help you become better and the people in your universe. So please pick it up and help me and help Iran make this world a better place. [01:45:48] Speaker B: Thank you. This is an awesome read. Deeply encouraged. And, TJ, I do have a marketing suggestion for you. You gotta. You gotta get everybody to endorse the book. Take a photo of themselves doing the eyes up, man. [01:46:01] Speaker A: Ooh, that's gonna do. [01:46:04] Speaker B: Come on. [01:46:04] Speaker A: I'm gonna do it. [01:46:05] Speaker B: Come on. You got someone to take a photo of it? I just read eyes up. [01:46:08] Speaker A: I'm gonna take your picture. Hold on, hold on. All right, ready? We're gonna start with you, genius. [01:46:18] Speaker B: You know what this is like? I mean, people gotta get me marketing for them. Like, okay, you get people to do that hashtag, I just read hashtag eyes up, or I got my eyes up, or whatever. Anyways, cool book. Really well done as always, man. You totally rock. So I wish you all the best, and I'm sure we'll have you on again. So as we're closing off all the best, brother. [01:46:39] Speaker A: Appreciate you. [01:46:40] Speaker B: All right, everyone. That was a super fun conversation. You know, I get to talk to a lot of different kinds of people on the show lately from all sorts of different places, uh, in terms of their professional careers, their personal life, all that kind of stuff. And teacher is just one of those dudes where, like, oh, no. Like, we could talk for another, like, two, three, four, 5 hours. Um, it's also probably good we don't live in the same city because we'd just be, like, constantly in this, like, you know, super brain place. Uh, it's fun for me to be in a conversation with someone who can really chop it up. So, again, TJ, you totally rock. Thank you. And for anyone out there, I hope you don't feel I'm saying you did not write a book. But goddamn it, if you're going to write a book, make sure that it's one that you're like, this is the best goddamn book that I could ever write. This book has a place. I want to get my message out there. Raise your voice up, but just make sure that it's being heard. With that, I am out. This is Aram Arslanian, and this is one step beyond. One step. One step what?