Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: All right, this is something I've been dying to ask you. So it looks like. It looks like, you know, Zuckerberg went on Joe Rogan the other day, and he's. He's looking.
[00:00:11] Speaker B: Yeah, he did.
[00:00:12] Speaker A: You know, he's looking, like, a lot more buff, and he has his, like, like, gold medallion. And like, I don't. I barely know anything about this guy outside of, you know, you know, Odin, Facebook. But it seems like it's like a real 180, like, kind of like almost like a rebranding of, like, hey, we're going to stop these, like, fact checkers. We're going to be returning to free speech. He's talking about, like, male, and he wants to have, like, more like. Or he. He. He's interested in kind of like he was seeking out, like, male energy and maybe even, like, kind of like we've been, like, demonizing male energy at Facebook. Maybe we've gone too far. This seems like a real, like, unexpected 180 or. Or. Or not. I'm interested in your thoughts on it.
[00:00:56] Speaker B: I don't believe it actually has. Is. I don't think it's a 180.
So back in the day, do you remember when the Supreme Court judge, Dr. Blazey Ford, and I forgot the name.
[00:01:15] Speaker A: Of the judge Kavanaugh.
[00:01:18] Speaker B: Yes. When. When Kavanaugh was elected into office, the man who sat behind him was Joel Kaplan, who was the.
The head of policy for Facebook at the time, which was a strong, strong stance for Facebook for the head of policy to sit behind him. And there was much ire within the company about the Joel Kaplan sitting behind him, especially if you are a woman that worked at Facebook at the time. And so due to that controversy, there was actually a town hall where all of the survivors of sexual abuse came together to address all of the leadership, including Mark.
And so we basically all were like, how could you allow this to happen? Why is this person sitting behind someone? This. When, like, we are survivors and we work here, and this.
This makes a statement about how we feel about survivors. I don't think that Mark's stance has changed because he. Joel Kaplan, as far as I know, still works at Facebook too. And Mark has always had the stance that free speech was his first kind of, like, agenda.
[00:02:39] Speaker A: And.
[00:02:40] Speaker B: And so even the polarization work that we did that I spoke to before was to not, not just unpack, like, protecting people. It was more to, like, make people come together. Right. It was so that, like, everyone that has different opinions can come together. It wasn't about protecting People who are marginalized or had different experiences. It was like, we don't want a PR fire because we want everyone to be able to post. Post anything that they want on my platform. So I don't personally see it as a 180. I see it as a kind of like PR leaning towards. Now we're going to go full stack this way because legislation is going to go that way. So why don't we just kind of remove the things in the entities that are going to block us from doing that.
[00:03:25] Speaker A: So it's purely like a business political move rather than a sea change in his thinking.
[00:03:31] Speaker B: Yeah, because I mean, there's the pictures of him with Obama back then and we know that he met with Trump the last legislation and that there was a lot of things that happened then. Facebook did not take down. Trump's posts on Facebook that were taken down before Elon Musk during. When his tweets were taken down, Facebook allowed those to stay up. So if you do a little digging, it was this. This stance has been there for a while. I want you to think of Facebook as a country with policies and laws. Right. Policy is how the government or law enforcement of Facebook would take something down. The content standards are the rules that you can just Google on the Internet what you can say or not. So for bullying specifically, back in the day, they've changed a ton of times since. Now it was that you were. In order to have something taken down by bullying, you had to be able to identify the person who. Who you were bullying. So if I like, if you say something disparaging, that would. Couldn't be considered bullying. And if I was able to get hundreds of people to report it, the likelihood that it would go down is super high because, you know, we have a lot of. They have a lot of algorithms that would take down things automatically so you wouldn't be able to see it. And then actually the Instagram would get punished instead of the person who had done these bad things in real life or. Or the allegations had said they had done. XYZ thing.
[00:04:58] Speaker A: Yeah. This is such a wild world. Like, I like social media is like the craziest thing to me and like what you just explained to me has blown my mind.
[00:05:08] Speaker B: Yeah, it's really, really complicated. I think one of my old co workers said it best is Facebook is a country without borders and without real laws. Yeah.
Because it's everywhere too. Right. Like they're not just here everywhere.
[00:05:25] Speaker A: Okay. So going back to you and the industry, so do you think like the type of Work that you do. First of all, I just want to take a step back. How did you even find this? Like, what was your path into this career?
[00:05:41] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good question. So Clint is my partner. I know you're friends with Clint. Clint. So we both lived in Philadelphia and I worked at a nonprofit organization helping people with disabilities get jobs. But my background was in psychological research. I had done research on victims of violence and reducing human trafficking, human disparities, and violence against women. And then I just worked in nonprofit, basically like getting people jobs. And Clint was a teacher at a high school teaching physics. And then he decided to get a PhD and we decided that we were going to move to Stanford. So I decided, oh, well, I can't afford to live on a nonprofit on a nonprofit salary. So I was like, oh, what am I going to do? I should try and get a research job at a tech company.
How should I do that? And so I started doing some research and I found UX research because I had a colleague who was in the same pre doctoral fellowship that I was in that was doing UX research. She was doing operations, which was basically, basically calling people that were using DocuSign at the time and scheduling them for sessions. And so I actually asked another person that was in this same pre doctoral fellowship about UX research and is like, oh, does community psychology or social psychology line up? Would I be able to do this type of research? And that person was like, no, actually, we don't need social, social psychologists in, in this, in this field, it's competitive enough. And you know, the hardcore spirit in me was like, oh, you're going to tell me that I can't be this thing? All right, I'm going to take that and I'm going to run with it. Go ahead, watch me. And then I went absolutely crazy and emailed every single person I knew on LinkedIn that worked in the Bay Area, that worked at a tech company. And I networked so hard that I actually ended up meeting with a. A guy that was a UX researcher at Google. And he and I had conversations over the course of a year. I had to bother him for a year. And he hooked me up, linked me to the Google team that was doing ops there. And I actually got a contract job doing scheduling participants for research. That's how I learned all the language of UX research. Tech bros talk really weird. We say weird things like stay stakeholders and we use like all these letters to talk, to talk about things. And so I learned the language and from there I actually Applied because I had a UX Research operations job title on my resume. I was able to apply to another program called the Facebook Research Associate Program, which was a program for diversity and research. It was for people who didn't have PhDs so they could come and they could learn how to be a researcher. And magically I was able to get hired into that program. And that's how I started in UX research. And I was there for five years and did some of the coolest research I think I've ever done in my life.
[00:08:44] Speaker A: So a lot of what you just said there is like persistence, resilience, like taking, like hearing. No, but being like, I don't care. I'm still going to keep pushing forward. A lot of like grind, a lot of hustle. So how much of that was natural to you versus how much did you get from other sources?
[00:09:02] Speaker B: I think it's pretty natural seeing how I. So I'm the kind of person that thinks like, oh, there's a concert I can get in for free for sure.
Like, oh, I want to go to the front of the stage and see this band. Oh, I'm gonna get there. Like, there's no way, no one's gonna stop me. I don't care how I get there, I'm gonna get there. And so that attitude has always gotten me where I need to be. And I think that is from being a 5 foot nothing Asian girl at Harper shows to being a, you know, like the totally different person at a school or being the person with a master's degree and not a PhD. I've just always been like, I don't care what you say, I'm going to find out what you need to get me where I need to be. And I'm just going to keep going. I'm pretty. Yeah, I like, I actually wrote a.
It's funny. I applied to PhD programs in 2015. I went to community psychology, master's degree and I applied to PhD programs. And in my personal statement, I said the one thing I'm good at is fighting.
And I was like, and I've learned that fighting in person is not the way to do it, but fighting for what you believe in is how I'm going to. Well, I didn't get the PhD, but is how I'm going to get to do the work that I need to do. And I did. I fought all the way into tech companies and I do the job without having a PhD. So pretty proud of that.
[00:10:26] Speaker A: If you were like, kind of put on your like mentor hat, what Would you be your advice for people, and especially, like, let's say people who, like, maybe don't like to have a PhD or don't have, like, the. The bells and whistles that would be usually be associated with whatever position they're going to have that they were trying to get. What would be your advice for people about, like, how to adopt that kind of mindset or how to keep pushing without just feeling, like, crushed under the weight of. No.
[00:10:52] Speaker B: Yeah. I think the crush is, like, the hardest part, right? It's just, like. It's just a mountain that's in front of you. I think the thing about moving through mountains like that is that you look at your feet and you take a step, each step towards something that you want to do. Another thing that I think is stay curious, always be asking questions. Never a no is never a no ever. I think I worked in Vegas for, like, six years, and I always have that closing mindset. Like, someone says, no, there's always another way around thing. Like, oh, the bodyguard is standing at the front door. There's 20 other doors. There's a hole still at the top of the glass house that you can get through if you really need to. Don't tell anyone there that, though. But, like, you can weasel your way in anywhere. The. The way that you do that is you find the right people, you ask the right questions, you. You. You come in and you. You have to be eager, right? And you can smell eagerness in people, right? And, like, honestly, how many shows did you just, like, stand there at the front of the door waiting for the bouncer to feel bad for you, and then they just let you in? Like, I did that my whole entire life. And that's the thing, is if you knock on enough doors, if you ask enough times, someone's going to say yes at the end of the day.
[00:12:08] Speaker A: Do you mind if I share with you, like, some of the way I look at degrees and all that kind of stuff?
[00:12:15] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure.
[00:12:16] Speaker A: So when I first started being a therapist, it was like the wild west. Like, you know, like, you didn't have to have, like, you know, like, all these degrees and everything like that. Like, someone could basically just be like, I'm an addictions counselor, just because they had, like, lived experience, right? And, like, then you had to get, like, a certification. Then you had to have this, and you had to do that. And it kind of scaled up over time. The greatest mentor to me as a young therapist was this person named Diane. I worked with her at the the last not for profit That I worked at Phenomenal therapist, like, through the roof. Had like, no degrees, basically had just, like, gotten into the industry when she was a younger person and, like, grown up in the industry.
And my boss freaking hated her. Like, my boss was like, had a master's degree and was always, like, trying to, like, demean her and talk her down. It was like, like, unbelievable. But, like, this was just a person who got. People could read a situation. And I learned so much about how to read a situation from her read a room, which I also got a lot from hardcore. But I got this more in, like, a professional sense. So some of the. Some of the most, like, unbelievable professionals I've ever met are the people who are missing, like, what are quote, unquote, like, the, like, you know, base requirements. Like, you have to have this degree or that degree. And some of the. I'd say, like, more questionable things I've seen or I've seen. Like, sometimes I'll work, like, work with professionals that'll be like, really, like. And, like, they check all the boxes, you know, and it's like, I'm not saying there's a right or wrong here, but that idea. The idea that, like, wisdom and knowledge and, like, that's just that instinct and ability to just take no a million times until it becomes a yes. Like, that is so invaluable and has a place at, like, the highest levels of business, like, all sorts of different levels. And, like, in the C suite, people would be blown away by how many of those people don't have, like, advanced degrees and are just, like, people who kind of, like, figured it out. And the value to what you said of just taking one step forward at a time, like, getting used to saying no, like, knowing that over time, you'll get there and working your way across that mountain is massive. Absolutely massive. Anything that's worth doing is worth pushing for if you really have conviction. But I'm super open. Anything else you want to say on that?
[00:14:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I think resourcefulness is. I think my superpower is if you can give me something and ask me to do something, I'll try and do it. And one of the phone calls I take all the time doing mentorship is when people are like, well, I don't have this degree. I don't have xyz, I don't have this, and I go do a project.
Everything in your life is research, right? Like, the. The food you eat, the phone call you take, the friends you choose, the app that you're playing with. Everything is research, right? Like, which movie do you want to watch tomorrow? That's a research study which, like, I'm just looking like, which plant is going to grow faster. That's an experiment, right? And so the way that you change and turn things in your life, your perspective, if you can take that and be resourceful, right? You make something into what it's not. And that can be as simple as on your resume. You change your title, right? Something that little, right? Or Even like the YouTube title, right? If it changes, right. People will view that differently. I think that's why the job makes me thrive so much, is it's really learning how to turn people's perspective and change things. And I think that perseverance can be so good for you in everyday life, right? Like, be resourceful, figure out how to do things differently than everyone else does. And then it's also really, really helpful in businesses, right? Like, businesses has to pivot. Like, look at Netflix, right? They were sending CDs yesterday and now they have wrestling. Like, it's like crazy, right? It's like you have to be able to pivot and turn and change and like go with the wind and find new changes. Like, I think that's like really, really important to thrive as a human being, but also like in your career. Career and in life.
[00:16:14] Speaker A: Yeah.
So, you know, we've talked a lot about how these like, kind of big tech companies have moved away from the, the researchers. Do you see that changing? Do you see that turning around and coming back?
[00:16:27] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it always, it ebbs and flows. I'd like remember the dot com, like crash the same thing. Everybody got fired. Everyone had to find new jobs. What's really cool is all the very, very wonderfully talented people that were at those huge, huge, big fang companies that got laid off. Now they can go and they can create new companies, right, that do new cool things, that they can build what they want. They have, like, there are, there are angel investors out there and like all the people that they can now build other companies that may compete with something like these big companies, right? Like, so it's really exciting actually, because you can go do like stuff other companies. And I learned that like, I was very indoctrinated into the big tech culture and that there's other types of company cultures, there's different types of ways to build things. And I think that's like me just like continuing to grow and learn and change and do things differently. But that's what I'm excited about, right, Is that like research is going to change just as much as companies are going to change. And so getting ready for those curves are like the career space, but it keeps my space interesting. Right. Because if I was still at Facebook, I'd probably still be doing things the same way. Right. And so now I can kind of learn more and become a different person.
[00:17:45] Speaker A: All right, well, that leads me to my next question. What is next for you? You know, you've worked at the. Some of these massive, totally insane companies, and it is like a new day. Things are. Things are. Lots of new opportunities are opening up with these people who are in these big companies who are starting new business. So what's next for you?
[00:18:03] Speaker B: Yeah, so I'm actually unemployed, which is kind of really fun. I've been raising a small puppy in my house. But the next thing for me is that I'm looking for a job that has great management and a fulfilling product. So I know AI is the, like, huge new thing right now. Everybody is building AI things, and I think that's super interesting. But I also want to go back to the roots of the things that I cared about most, which was building healthy relationships, being proactive to help people's mental health, like depolarizing people, building around community and culture. And so I'm looking for a company that's doing that, and I want to do research that does that same thing that cultivates human beings and helps them grow. So I'm like, really curating in my interviews and when I talk to people more about what the team looks like, how people are managing, what they're building, what their future looks like, and how they're approaching that versus, like, what is my compensation? What does the package look like? What's my. Whether is it hybrid or like, those kinds of things? It's kind of like refocusing on what I need versus what they need. One piece of advice I would give anyone that's applying for a job is you are interviewing the company just as much as you as they are interviewing you. I know, like, it's desperate times and we all need jobs and we need to make money. But if you don't come into an interview and you ask the questions about what you need, you might not have a job three months later anyway. So it's better to ask the right questions than not ask those and not get what you need. And if they don't want you for the person that you are, then you probably shouldn't work there in the first place. So.
[00:19:38] Speaker A: Yeah. So from your perspective, like, what are some of the companies that are doing things that you find interesting or like, like hell yeah, that's cool. And like, yeah, I think their culture is like right on. Like what are some of the names that you drop? Or like. No, I'm super impressed by that.
[00:19:54] Speaker B: Oh, that's a really good question. I have to think about that. I love a lot of the sustainability type work that folks are doing. So even some of the like companies, like, like makeup companies that are like doing small batch makeup collaborations, right? And they're like kind of like building things that are biodegradable and doing those on their own. I really love a lot of the like, like the new vegan types of meats, like they're trying to make like seafood and like they're trying to do all those kinds of things. I think that's really interesting. It's super sustainable. They're building good food culture, they're trying to change people's minds. I love any company that's like trying to like move head on people's perspective.
So I've been applying to a lot of the like. So like it's weird. All medical stuff has kind of gone online. People are doing therapy online. They're kind of like meeting people like via the Internet now, like to do therapy and to go to the doctor. So those companies are really interesting to me. But my dream job has always been like the dating apps, right, Is because people meet via the Internet to fall in love and to have relationships. And because I've been so invested in my like college career building healthy relationships and doing like prevention and education for high schoolers. I would love to be in that space like maybe like Tinder, Grindr, like Hinge, like those kinds of companies to see how you can like really foster healthy relationships from like the first day rather than after, like later when it goes bad.
[00:21:33] Speaker A: Oh yeah, that's super, super interesting. Going to the, the idea around therapy, like online therapy, it's such a wild thing for me to see now because when I was I haven't been a therapist, like working in a therapeutic setting for gosh, it's like been probably getting, getting close to 14 years since then. I was like doing addiction mental health stuff.
And back then it was like online therapy did exist in its like infancy stage and you know, depending on who the therapist was, it was just like some therapists were like very forward looking and like, oh my God, you know, this is like the future. Others were like, oh, you can't, you can't really connect with people the same way. And for me it was always just about accessibility. It's like the, the vast, vast amounts of people who live in areas that are, it's like inaccessible for therapy or they're, they don't have the mobility to get there. They can't get across town or they can't get down the block or from a financial space.
They just like, they can't afford to go see like a therapist that's in like a brick and mortar space. Like, the accessibility thing was always my, like my point of interest and now it's like my, my company is largely like almost everything is virtual. Like I talk to you know, eight to 10 people every single day all over the world and just to see how rapid the adoption was and how good people have got at it. And also it's like you can maintain ultra, ultra good, super health, healthy and helpful relationships being solely online if the right infrastructure is built. But it does take a discipline. And I will say like, you know, 14ish years ago, like it was like not really a thing. And now just 14 years later, it's like the thing.
[00:23:18] Speaker B: Yeah, it's wild. I did a EMDR via by like online therapy and I was like, whoa, this is crazy that I could do this here because before they would never do that ever. Ever.
[00:23:29] Speaker A: Yeah, so one of the things that like people talked a lot to me about from like a leadership perspective is like the whole return to work thing. And I'm like, just like, listen, I, I believe that there, there of, of course there's a value of people being together. But also it's like if you build your teams and your product and your workflow the right way and you have the right kind of discipline about people like being at a distance, you can have it in like unbelievable company doing. You just have to build it with purpose and then kind of just falling backwards into it and then just pointing out the gaps. We're in this like new world. And I think people, people doing people from the discipline that you're in have just like untold value. Like the things that are going to happen because of people like you is like major because again like that user experience like that, like helping both the Walter in the situation and then the listener is going to help the band like become better. It's a huge thing. So I do believe and I do hope that that industry again has an upswing leaning into roles like yours.
[00:24:28] Speaker B: Yeah, it's really interesting too from another perspective is doing research via online versus doing it in person. It's so, it's so interesting because there's two flip sides to it. So like an Interview. Like if you were my participant and I was talking to you via this, it's so funny because like I can get, sometimes you feel more comfortable to like share things or like talk shit on like whatever you're building or using it, right? But when you're in person and you get to like hand them a thing, right? Like if I hand you the phone and I have you touch it or I'm in person and I have you tell me like story about your life or I'm literally sitting in your house and I see you doing something, it's so different, right? There's this like range of experiences and I think like when you choose to do an in person study versus a remote study, there's like so much bias and things that change and like ebb and flow on why you decide to do that. But we went all the way to everyone is doing remote research. And so I'm really excited to see it. When we're returning to office, we're actually going to do like in person research and remote research and it's going to be that can really change how things end up turning out in the long run because like the remote research might not actually be the best way to do it all the time.
[00:25:43] Speaker A: Is it that people are more willing to be truthful, like, like brutally truthful when they're remote, or is it that they're more willing to like focus on negativity?
[00:25:53] Speaker B: So it's kind of both. So the thing is, is that when you talk to someone online versus this, you're like more likely to just like say whatever. But also like I could just like not pay attention, right? Or I have like all the things like doing that. I could also just like be feeding you what I want to. And it even goes to like we have a moderated studies where I just like send you a survey or I ask you to record a video and you could just say whatever you want and then we use that data to inform a study versus if you came and sat right next to me and I was like, hey Aram, we'll use this thing in front of me and I'm going to watch you and I'm going to maybe give you some instructions that you might not know. Or I'm going to sit inside your house and like sit with your family and see where you go to work. Like maybe more like an ethnography where you're like actually close living the life. And then maybe my stakeholders would come with me and we'd be in Mexico City and we'd see that this person actually, like, their Internet goes out six times a day. That's why they can't do all these things. Right. So kind of like the balance of both is that you need just like we need mixed methods. We also need a range of the types of research, the range of the methods. There's like all these different things that we need to be doing in order to learn the best information, to make informed decisions.
[00:27:04] Speaker A: Amazing. That's so cool. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. All right, so we're heading towards the close of the interview and we're going to do the crucial three. I'm going to ask you three questions. Questions are going to scale in difficulty, but before we get to that, is there anything that you want to add in? Anything you want to say? Any questions you want to ask me?
[00:27:19] Speaker B: Wait, I have one. What is the goal of your podcast? What is the outcome that you're looking for?
[00:27:25] Speaker A: It's two things. One, it's to create, like, if I have a new client, so someone who's like, oh, like, you know, should we work with this company? And then they can look at the podcast and then they can watch me interview someone and have a conversation with someone, they can get a sense of what it's like to actually interact with me. Like, what it would be like to actually, like, know me and be in that space. Because, like, when I do a coaching engagement with someone, it's usually like six months to a year. So it's like a big commitment on their end. And just like, if you meet me, most people could do like a 30 minute interview with someone and like, present themselves well. You know, like, it kind of show up the right way. But like, to talk to someone multiple times on a podcast and be like, relatively consistent with how you ask questions, how you, like, summarize how you paraphrase, how you create a narrative. People can really get a sense of what it's like to work with me when they do this. So it's just kind of like a proof point when people are, like, deciding on their coach. And the other one is to showcase the expertise of other people and then my expertise as well. So, like, we have a lot of, like, intellectual property that I typically fold into interviews based on, like, what the conversation is. And then we'll use those as pulls to like, showcase that. But then also, like, someone with you has this, like, deep expertise in your area will do that and showcase that. And both of those are really just like more kind of when you've got like a audience, it's like, I Want to learn about leadership and the psychology of leadership. They'll see one of my polls and be like, hell, yeah, I want to see that. Or if someone's, like, interested in UX research and they see yours, they're like, yeah, I want to do that. So it's. It's. One is a showcasing. The other is just, like, a proof point of, like, what's it like to be in, like, a conversation with me?
[00:29:06] Speaker B: Oh, that's awesome.
[00:29:09] Speaker A: It's not a. It's not a revenue generator. Oh, yeah, totally. It's not a revenue generator, I'll tell you that. Like, we. You know, that it's, like, growing. This podcast is, like. It's awesome. Like, I love it. So first I get to, like, work with Monica, my wife, which is, like, the best. And then Mike, who's our engineer, is, like, one of our best friends, and he also. We play in a band together, and it's like, I got to travel with them, hang out with them, like, eat at cool restaurants. It's, like, amazing. And it is kind of like the marketing arm of our. Of our company, but more so it's like, I got. I had two conversations today. One was with you, and one is with a guitar player of one of my favorite bands who's gone on to be quite successful in, like, marketing and pr. And it's like, I get to talk to the coolest people all the time about the most interesting stuff. We kind of, like, figure things out. I always, like, learn stuff, so part of it is just, like, me, like, kind of, like, growing as a. As a person. Like, I learned so much from our conversation today that, like, that's, like, kind of. Although the podcast makes zero percent money, it does promote the company, but it also, like, just promotes my own growth as a. As a coach.
[00:30:12] Speaker B: Well, I love that. Thank you for sharing that.
[00:30:14] Speaker A: Yeah, great question. Nobody's ever asked me that, so thank you. I mean, sometimes I ask myself that. What's the point of the podcast?
[00:30:21] Speaker B: I'm used to doing the opposite. I'm usually asking the question. So I'm very good at asking questions, answering them.
[00:30:27] Speaker A: I'm like, you've done great today. Like, really great. All right, so you ready for the Crucial three?
[00:30:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Let's go.
[00:30:35] Speaker A: Okay. Punk and Hardcore. Like, almost anyone I have from Punk and Hardcore who's been on here always talks about the things from Punk that help them be good at their career and the things that they. They really help them, like, excel at things. And I'm always interested. Were there any habits that you learned from punk and hardcore that you had to, like, work on putting in check or even overcoming so that it didn't impact your work.
[00:31:01] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So many. One. Reactivity, right, is like, reacting immediately to things and, like, just being like. Like.
I don't know. There's something very, like, reactive in the culture where, like, you respond quick, you. You just say what you mean, and you kind of, like, come at it so fast. Is a. Like, that is something that I've had to, like, pull back, like, be more patient, take things in, listen, like, like, view.
I think that just leads into being less judgmental, right? Is like, we talked about, like, the heuristics and, like, thinking something through. I was super judgmental when I was in hardcore, right? Like, oh, that band sucks. Or like, oh, that person sucks. They, like, this thing and realizing that, like, that was actually harming me and actually keeping me away from connecting with people that weren't a part of hardcore. So, like, I am friends with so many civilians now. So many people that have nothing to do with hardcore. Like, one of my best friends loves Nickelback. Like, that's crazy.
But so, yeah, so, yeah, just like, kind of, like really opening the doors to people that are different than me. I think that was something that I didn't realize at the subclass. Culture pigeonholed me so much in a way that I really needed to open a lot of doors.
And I think hardcore setting. Yeah, I think just really, like, when. When I say pigeonhole, like, how it boundaried me around connecting with people. I think just me learning how to open those doors and connect with people with something else. Because I think I held hardcore with real strong egotism, right? Whereas, like, oh, I've been sharing for this long, or I've done this for so long, or I was at this show, or I like, you know, and holding that over, like, as, like, I'm better than people. And I, like, really think that I, like, was able to step away from that because as I said before, I think, like, I experienced so much trauma in it that I, like, try to, like, turn it on its head and be like, oh, that makes me better, or that makes me cooler or whatever. Kind of like shying away from that experience and those feelings and opening my heart and being more, like, empathetic and, like, having a job that is literally, like, advocating for people's empathy is, like, kind of something that I had to learn and take away in order to, like, become a better person.
[00:33:27] Speaker A: Heck, yeah. I mean, I can relate to a ton of that, especially that you know, like the, the idea of, you know, it's like, oh, you know, figures out so great because you're straight edge. It's like, no, I, that's ridiculous. But then inside really be like, don't you, like, don't you really actually kind of think you're the shit because you're straight edge? And it's like, okay, like as I've got like I turned 50 in the summer and like really thought about it, it's like, hey man, not drinking is like literally the least. Like it matters to me. It totally matters to me. I can guarantee you my life would be in a much different place if I drank because I didn't, I didn't drink in a healthy way. I didn't engage with alcohol in a healthy way. I engaged within in a self destructive way. So it's like a total big deal to me. But is it a big deal in the scope of humanity? It is zero percent matters. And you know, someone once said to me, I think veganism is more important than straight edge. I was like, what? Like straight edge? And now like as a molder, I'm like, oh my God, like they're not even comparable. Like veganism is important, important for the, the health of, of the world, the planet, society, animals. Like it just goes on and on and on. For me it's like, yeah, I don't, I don't get drunk.
That's it. You know, like it's good for me and my family basically. So like I could really relate to that and that, that idea of like how, how like within group membership can kind of close you off to, to how wonderful other things can be.
[00:34:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I know, I totally agree. And like being straight, it's so funny like the, that like you can connect with people that are that like do drugs or like drink and then show them how much you can enjoy life without it. And then I have had so many friends be sober or like go sober and then they actually come to me to talk to me about things that they can do when they don't drink. Right? Like I've told everyone about like oh, you could get this slipknot or like here's this fun non alcoholic drink or here's all these things. And it's a really nice way to connect with people rather than feeling like you're better than them. Which is like, I do think we're really cool cause we're straightish, but you know.
[00:35:39] Speaker A: Yeah, okay. But like, yeah, all right, question number two. Now I'm talking solely professionally here through your Professional path. What is something that you learned about yourself that you were surprised by, like, you did not know about yourself and you feel really good about. So it's not something you had to fix, you needed to work on. What's something that has only been revealed to you through your, your professional pursuit that you're like, that's awesome. I feel good about that.
[00:36:09] Speaker B: I, I think I learned that I am much more empathetic than I thought I was. I really do have a very empathetic nature. I do know how to listen and I really can soak up other people's, like, perspectives and regurgitate them out to other people. I'll tell you a story. I did an interview with a black Republican in a very rural town in Florida, and he screamed at me to tell me that he didn't believe, that he believed Anita hall, but he didn't believe Dr. Blazey Ford. And it was so interesting to me that this man could just scream at me about his beliefs. But I think with that conversation, I very much learned that I could talk to anyone who has different beliefs than me as long as I'm empathetic. And that is a tool and it is so resourceful. Way to learn about people is to be able to be objective and hear what they have to say and then navigate that farther with more questions rather than anger. So I've talked to anti vaxx moms, I've talked to people that used to be Nazis. I've talked to many, many people that have different beliefs than me. And I think I learned from all those like, experiences that like, empathy is the answer and that it is a really way to, good way to practice communication and like, will help me in the long run, like, just to like, be able to stay, stay connected to human beings.
[00:37:48] Speaker A: Yeah, I, I, I, I love that in the, the story that you just talked about about, like, speaking of like far right extremists, like, when you and I have just talked about that personally, that's like a insane body of work that you did there. And it's like, it's a very, you know, it's like I, it's like something that I think like in a later podcast or another conversation, I'd love to hear you unpack because when you told me my jaw was on the floor, like, that was crazy.
[00:38:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I had some wild experience doing research on that, but it really, it, it opened my eyes and it was actually one of my very first projects at Facebook. Like, and I don't think, yeah, like you said, like, if you're thinking of a characteristic that you just have inside you. Like, I did not think that I would be able to talk to the people that I talk to at all. Like, I never in my life thought I would be able to interact with these people that had, like, such differing beliefs than me. And then when it came down to it, when I talked to them, it. I was like, oh, I'm much more empathetic than I thought I was.
[00:38:47] Speaker A: Yeah, it's interesting being in, like, when you get into a conversation like this, not this one specifically, but topically like this, like, people can kind of go to these extreme polls. Well, it's like, oh, well, so what are you saying? I should give so and so a free pass? Or, like, you're going to be accepting of this. You're going to find common ground. It's like, just cool your jets. Like, first of all, don't go to the most extreme possibility that you possibly can. And, like, you know, the left has their version, the right has their version. It's like, everybody calm down. Like, there is this massive gulf between these crazy extremes of people that you might have that you might not want to have empathy with. There is this crazy gulf where you actually practically can apply a lot of empathy, and you should apply a lot of empathy, not just for the good of the community and the world and all that stuff, but just for your own, like, health and, like, wellness and, like, the world around you and having, like, the right kind of connectivity. But also when you get to those more. Those further extremes, like, I mean, you know, bringing people into more reasonable semblance of beliefs or actions or getting people to, like, challenge themselves to make healthy changes, to kind of hold up a mirror and be like, holy shit, like, I've been doing terrible things or what I think is crazy or is bad. Like, I mean, somebody's got to be willing to go in and challenge ideas from a place of empathy. And in many situations. I'm not going to say every situation, but many situations, there's some space for that. Does everyone need to be that person? No, but there are people that have an opportunity to, like, really change minds. And those minds do matter, and it does start with, like, I'd say a lot of courage, but also empathy, for sure.
[00:40:27] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree.
[00:40:29] Speaker A: All right, Ready for your last question?
[00:40:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:40:33] Speaker A: All right. I want you to think about your career and your life however you want to do it, but it's got to have at least some career perspective. Tell me where Cami is two years, four years and six years from now.
[00:40:46] Speaker B: Oh, okay.
Two years from now, I'm doing interesting research that people care about, they're interested in learning, and they're making decisions on. So.
And then four years from there. So this is a really interesting thing, is that I believe that all the research I do takes two years to land.
Because the way that companies work on cycles and quarters and halves is that you do your research and you're usually behind, right? Like, they already built something or they designed something, right? You do your research, and then there's these big things that they learn that are, like, outside the box. They're like light bulb moments. And it takes people a whole year to remember, oh, didn't someone say this back then? They go back to the research, and then it takes a year to build the right thing. So in four years, whatever research I'm doing has created something new, has turned a company different in a different place. I'm hoping in four years that I am a manager. I would love to be cultivating other researchers to be doing the kind of research that I do, and they're learning from me. And then in six years, I don't know, what should I. What did I do in six years?
In six years, I would love to be doing things that I'm very proud of. I want to be in a place where I have good work, life balance. I have people around me that care about me, that are helping me grow and motivating me, and that in my career that I have cultivated good culture, a good team, and I have managers that are strategic partners with me, not just telling me what to do.
[00:42:37] Speaker A: Awesome. All right, we're coming to the end here. Anything that you want to say as we're closing off? Anything that you want to, like, hype up, mention, ask me, Anything at all?
[00:42:45] Speaker B: Okay, so you said that your goal, that your two goals were that the podcast basically, like, helps your business and that you're learning from it personally. What? I almost. It's funny, I'm asking the same question that you asked, but what do you see the podcast being in the future? Like, what, what, what's the fruition? What's your goal down. We're in the new year.
[00:43:07] Speaker A: So ultimately the podcast for me would become proof point for a book that, you know, like, in the industry that I'm in, if you have a book and that book is well received, like, you know, like, even moderately well received, it kind of changes the landscape of, like, the kind of conversations you're invited into, the kinds of meetings you're going to get, the kind of conferences you're asked to speak at so much of what I do now. And what we do now is just 100% based off of client referrals. So it's like clients, they have a good, great relationship with us. They, you know, talk about us to someone else, da, da, da. And it's been amazing. Like what we've been able to do in eight and a half years, years is like the company went from just being me and a notebook and a cell phone and like my parents dire warnings like, don't start your own business ringing in my ears, but like total faith, like, I'm going to do this. So it started with just me and now we're eight and a half years later and we've got like 13 full time people. We got like, I think 13 more consultants, like work all over the world. It's been totally awesome, but it's still total word of mouth. And if I was going to do anything, I'd like the podcast to catch on enough where someone's like, oh no, this guy's actually worth a book. Because I don't want to like self publish a book and nothing. Again, if anyone listening who self publish, I'm not poo pooing that at all. It's just that for what I want to do, I want to have a book where there's a publisher that's willing to invest in it the same way a record label would invest in a band. They're investing in it. It's a book they are going to market and push out there with the hope that it would be able to essentially like, help me be part of the conversation and the work conversation, the leadership conversation. There are a lot of great voices out there. Like, you know, I don't think the world is like dying for like another voice, like a leadership voice. So it's not like those things. Positioning yourself that way is hard to do. And I don't want to just be one of those, like online, like, let me tell you about leadership. Like, people, like, it's just like, that's not what I'm interested in. I want to do things of value and I think this podcast is like a pathway to that. And as the podcast goes further and further, like, I've become a much better interviewer. I know what I'm looking for. We're able to get better guests.
We're kind of getting a point now where we're starting to get a mix of guests between people I know who are real deal professionals. So someone like you and then people who it's Like, I don't know, but they're kind of punk related. But they're real deal professionals. But now we're also starting to get. Oh, like professionals that I don't know that we're just reaching out to. And I would just love to get to the point where it's like, we're like, probably three steps away from being able to get, like, real deal, like, kind of brand name people who are going to be on the. On the podcast who aren't just going to be like, who's this weirdo trying to talk to me? And that kind of stuff would lead more to a book and writing. And writing books and having those published and being able to speak to those. It would be the goal for me.
[00:46:03] Speaker B: Oh, awesome. Yeah, it sounds like scaling is always, which is like, always a problem for people is understanding, like how you scale with quality. Right. Versus scaling with. Yeah, but book sounds awesome.
[00:46:18] Speaker A: Well, can I tell you a funny story?
[00:46:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:46:22] Speaker A: It might not be that funny. It's funny to me.
I already wrote a book and I had. I had a ghostwriter do it. So it's just like during the pandemic, I'm trying to, like, keep the company, like, growing, not going under. It's all this stuff like, hey, this is a great time to write a book. So I had a ghostwriter come in, but I was like, a mess. It's like the pandemic. One of my parents had become very, very ill. Like, it was like a really, like, messy, messy time. And yeah, I'm doing all these interviews with this ghostwriter who was great, wonderful person, like, all of that stuff. And we put together this book. It's like, the book is done. Wow. Got this book. And also I kind of felt a little weird about having a ghostwriter, but I was like, I also don't have time just to, like, sit down and like, hammer out a book. I've never written a book. Da, da, da. Anyways, I give a chapter to one of my clients who is like, one of my very first clients, is a huge believer in me and Cadence has been like, a really, really important figure in my life. And he doesn't email me, he calls me, and he was like, do not put this out. It's like, this is terrible. I was like, what? What are you talking about? He's like, listen, man, I know you. The reason I've invested so much in your company, the reason I, like, I always promote you to people is like, how. How valuable you've been to me and, like, how authentic you are and how real you are and how easy to work with you are. He's like, this just feels like someone who's just like trying to like, write a book for like a corporate audience and sound like really intellectual and like, this doesn't sound like you. The lessons aren't there. This sounds like someone who's like pretending to be someone else. He's like, this is honestly one of the worst things I've read. And I was like, thank you for your honesty. And it was like that. But it was like that guy in Europe who said that about, about that record.
[00:48:12] Speaker B: Yeah. And for real, Chapter one, two and three seminar.
[00:48:18] Speaker A: But it was, it came from a place of caring. And that guy is still a client today. Like, has been a huge part of the story of the company and it really made me reflect. Like, I don't want to put out something just to put it out. I'm not going to self publish. I want to put out something because there's an audience that actually cares enough and that there's a publisher that's like, we believe in you. And so the podcast does. Does, I think, lead to that if, if the right things happen.
[00:48:41] Speaker B: Yeah. That like, rolls me back to the four year goal is where like, someone will take that feedback that I gave them and go, whoa, you're right. We need to, we need to throw the book out. We need to start over. And we're gonna start over. But like, people don't realize that like books or great things had millions of drafts before. Right. Like the best paintings probably have tons of sketches underneath them or. Or the best picture had like 40 other stills that were like, there that got thrown out. Like, people don't realize that. So I think you got, you probably, you have someone great in your corner that gave you some great feedback that now you can iterate on, which will be awesome.
[00:49:23] Speaker A: Yeah, we'll. We'll see what happens. But I'll say this, that like, when people are like, feedback is a gift, it's like, no, actually, like, that's a. Seems like a corny thing to say. It's like a corny thing to say. But like, feedback legitimately. Like, one of the things I really truly believe as a business owner is like, you have to 100% believe your own shit. If I didn't believe what I was doing made a difference and I was good at it and we had something of value, the business would tank. I totally believe my own shit. But you have to be equally willing as much to be told you're full of shit and to hear that with open ears, really listen, hold up a mirror and think about it. And that's one of the biggest disciplines, I think, for anyone who's trying to do something good, Believe in yourself, but also be willing to have that thing totally torpedoed and be able to hear it properly and make the adjustments that are needed.
[00:50:13] Speaker B: Yeah. At Facebook, we call that strong opinion. Strong opinions. Lightly held. I, like, loved that. I kept that because it's like, I have a strong opinion. I did all this work. This is the thing we should do. But I will always listen to whatever comes in and consider it and then make as the best decision I can from it.
[00:50:32] Speaker A: Heck, yeah. All right, listen. This was such an awesome conversation. You rock. I really appreciate your time. Anything to say as we close off?
[00:50:41] Speaker B: Nope. Thank you so much. It was so fun to chat with you.
[00:50:44] Speaker A: Heck, yeah. All right, everyone. I hope you got as much out of it as I did. This is like, I knew it was going to be good, but it was great conversation. And also, we had a surprise visit from Clint, which is totally awesome. So with that, we'll see you next time on One Step Beyond.
[00:50:58] Speaker B: One Step.
[00:51:02] Speaker A: One step.
[00:51:07] Speaker B: One step Beyond.
