Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: One of the phone calls I take all the time doing mentorship is when people are like, well, I don't have this degree, I don't have X, Y, Z, I don't have this. And I go do a project.
Everything in your life is research, right? Like the, the food you eat, the phone call you take, the friends you choose, the app that you're playing with. Everything is research, right? Like, which movie do you want to watch tomorrow? That's a research study. Which, like, I'm just looking, like, which plant is going to grow faster? That's, that's an experiment, right?
[00:00:31] Speaker B: That was a clip from today's guest. You know, I, I love when I know people from like punk and hardcore who are doing something super interesting career wise. And they'll be on the podcast because it's always fun to like, talk to people from the subculture that I've interacted with, but to also see what they've done with it and where they've gone. And it's that really wonderful idea that, like, know when you're part of this special little culture that, that, that we get to be a part of, there's so many things that you can learn and take with you wherever you go. Today's guest is a perfect example of that. And, you know, I'm looking forward to the conversation. Before we get to it though, please subscribe to the podcast. This is one step beyond Stepmie. Welcome to the show.
[00:01:31] Speaker A: Thanks for having me.
[00:01:33] Speaker B: All right, so for the uninitiated, for those who don't know, who are you and what do you do?
[00:01:38] Speaker A: Sure. My name is Cammy Shabata and I am a UX researcher, which is a fancy word for basically a social scientist for tech companies.
[00:01:50] Speaker B: Okay, that even sounds like a fancy thing. What is a UX researcher? Like, how do we break that down for people who have no idea?
[00:01:58] Speaker A: A UX researcher is basically a scientist. They basically do studies on the features of technological apps. So think Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp. I worked on ebay. Lots of people are using these and how they work and all the features. A UX researcher will go and work with a product team that builds those and then ask the questions to see, see how users use them and what's the best way to build them. And then we inform product by teaching them what the user said and then building the product hopefully the right way.
[00:02:33] Speaker B: Okay, so give me like the day in a life or the day of a project of someone who's a UX researcher. What would someone be doing specifically?
[00:02:40] Speaker A: I think the Job is basically four different jobs. It's one, you're basically a salesperson, right? You're selling your insights, you're broadcasting them to the CEO or the people or the product people that you're working with. The other is you're a scientist. You're actually doing the research. You're getting in there, you're talking to people, you're testing things, you're making sure that it works out. And then the other side of that is that you're kind of an artist and you're a creative. So you're going to take all the things that you learned from your study, you're going to put them into a story, and then you're going to build that story out and present that to people so that they make better decisions or informed decisions to build the product the right way.
[00:03:20] Speaker B: Okay? So of those, like four, four different things, which came the easiest to you and which one has taken you the most work to like, really get good at?
[00:03:29] Speaker A: I think the hardest thing is getting people to buy in to what you're selling, essentially. That's actually one thing I'm actually pretty good at, is getting people to understand things. I have a background in teaching, working with kids, kind of like making things easy to understand. And so you understand the really complex stuff that happens with the product. And then you have to teach that to how users see it versus. So great example is I worked at ebay and we worked on the wallet. And so do you buy or sell on ebay?
So the wallet on ebay is really, really technical, actually. So every single transaction that you use as a buyer to get paid, or a buyer to buy something or. Or as a seller to get paid, is basically a product company on the back end working on that. So each transaction, whether you use that, all the financial services, so there's all these little teams, and so we. They know all the technical aspects of it. But you as a user may not know any of that, right? To you, it's just putting in your credit card or like checking your bank account. And so you have to be able to teach the technical people how the user uses it. So basically it's like kind of dumbing it down both ways or telling people a lot of things are very, very obvious. And so that becomes very hard when someone is very, very ingrained in a product and they built it themselves. So if you built something, like if you were in your band, right, and I. And you like, wrote a song, and I came back and was like, well, everyone that listens to your song just Thinks it's like, I don't know, it sounds like sublime or something. And then you're like, oh, I didn't think that way. I didn't know that people would take it that way. So it's basically like giving a mirror to all of the people who are building the products.
[00:05:13] Speaker B: Okay. So that. That's what came naturally to you. Good at that. Naturally, yeah.
[00:05:18] Speaker A: So I think one thing. Yeah. That like, kind of goes back to, like, what, I guess hardcore or whatever punk is that I've always been able to tell people, like, oh, you suck or no. Or that doesn't work, or this thing is not. This not. This is not good. I'm. I tell people, and this is my interview voice, is that I tell people that I'm an agile and bold researcher. But what that means is that I'm going to tell you no and I'm going to mean and I'm going to tell you how and why. And a lot of times that can emasculate people or make them feel like, really, I don't know, like, they, like, feel like a lot of emotions about what they built. Like maybe a designer or product manager, but really, like, that's my job, is to come and say, hey, you're building this this way that you think is the right way. But a user is not going to see that at all. Like, they don't know all the 40 hours of work you do every week. They're just. They just want to push a button. They just want to get through it. They're not going to read everything. They don't care.
[00:06:13] Speaker B: All right, so what. What part of the job, though, has been hard for you to get good at? Or was there a part of job is. Did it all kind of come easy to you or was there some stuff that you had to really, like, focus on getting good at?
[00:06:25] Speaker A: It's really, really hard for me to tell people no in the way that resonates with them, like, for them to understand.
So I was really bold, too bold at first. And so I think the way I put it is I've learned to. To tell people with a soft no. Of how they can change things or how they can move the needle and like, rearrange how they're building something in a way that serves the user and, like, build empathy instead of just being like, you suck or this is built wrong or this is ugly or whatever.
[00:07:03] Speaker B: So how did you hone your skill on that? Like, how did you get good at that? I'll tell you a story in a sec. But how did you get good at doing that?
[00:07:10] Speaker A: I think I said no so many times that I kept hitting a wall over and over and over again and realizing that this isn't working. I actually wasn't progressing in my career. I did a bunch of projects that were kind of, like, morally opposed to my personal beliefs. And it was really hard for me to, like, do a project that, like, felt really confusing because I believe this one thing, and I had to ask a question in a completely different way or I had to do a study from a really objective point of view.
And I learned that if I can't even learn from that, from that way, if I can't step back and see it objectively, that I need to be able to present it more objectively. I need to kind of, like, approach what. What they call it, Facebook, a crucial conversation in a way that everyone understands their needs and then really communicate nonviolently. So I actually ended up taking a nonviolent communication class on how to understand people's needs and then approach that to, like, feed people's needs when I am doing my work rather than stopping them. Because a lot of people see my job as a blocker, right? So imagine you, like, let's go back to the band. You. You built a bunch of songs, right? You wrote an ep. And I'm like, oh, actually, like, you have to go back to the front and redo xyz. Like, you're gonna get really mad at me, right? Rather than, oh, users are going to listen to this and they actually are going to feel very upset or they're just gonna turn it off as soon as they listen to this one song. Maybe we should rearrange it this way. Maybe you should consider doing XYZ instead. Maybe you should move the needle in this way. So kind of like, like, learning that soft approach was very, very hard for me because I used to the, like, no, don't do that. Like, kind of, like, really abrupt, kind of more east coast type of, I don't know, personality approach, communication style.
[00:09:09] Speaker B: You know, I love the analogy you're bringing up for the band. So likely, you know, like, I'll just say, like, kind of. It kind of sounds like a producer. Like, if you had a producer in the studio with you and, you know, punk and hardcore bands, like, depending who you are, aren't going to have a producer because it's like, oh, no, you know, like, we'll do it ourselves. We know. We know what we want to sound like versus, like, now. Like, you know, I've put out, like, Three records. And I want my records to keep getting better.
The thing about having a producer, though, is, like, do you want a producer who's just going to tell you how it is and be direct so that you can get the most out of it as quickly as you can, or do you want a producer who's going to kind of like, coddle your ego as they help you make good decisions?
[00:09:45] Speaker A: Decisions, yeah, that's a great example.
[00:09:48] Speaker B: And there, like, there's not a right or wrong. So here's a. Here's a story I'll give you. When a old band of mine, we'd put out, like, what was our, you know, kind of like a. Our big record or whatever, the record that we got the most attention from in North America, like, everyone was like, slapping us on the back, like, great work. Like, wow, this is so great. Like, good for you. Da da da. And it was awesome. It was great. It's great to have the majority of your. Of the people that you know being like, heck, yeah, good for you. And we went over to Europe, and I'll never, ever forget this. One of the most important moments of my life. I'm really feeling myself at this point, right? We land in Europe, we go to our first show. The person who put on the show walks right up to me and was like, hey, I got your new record. I was like, oh, what do you think? Preparing myself for the adulation. And it was like, it's not very good. Tracks like 1, 1, 3 and 6 or whatever tracks he mentioned are really, really good. The rest kind of feels like filler. And I was like, oh, oh, how dare you?
Like, couldn't believe it. And I was just, like, kind of shocked. And then the guy just kind of kept talking to me like, you know, like, now we're just going to have the rest of our conversation, right? And I talked to the guys. I'm like, can you believe what this guy said? And everyone was like, whoa, that's like, so intense. But something that I really thought about that night, that I thought about for the rest of the tour was this guy was actually a fan of the band. And, like, I asked him what he thought of the record, and he told me what he really thought of the record. Not from a Place of Being Mean, but was like, I actually like your band. In fact, I like your band so much, I'm putting on a show for your band on another continent. Like, I'm going out of my way for you, and you're asking me what you think I'm trying to Give you real feedback so you can consider it for what you do next. And it was like that, that conversation. I reference it quite a bit because it's that idea of, like, well, what's more important to you is honing your craft, the most important thing. So, like, what you're doing is as good as it possibly could. Then you should surround yourself with people who are going to give you real feedback, give it to you in a timely manner, and be as clear as you possibly can. Or is you want to kind of do what you do and just be celebrated for it. And people kind of coddle your ego and maybe you make certain gains. And I don't say there's a right or wrong because there's probably a middle ground in there where it's like, maybe someone's gone to a course like you want to, and, like, you know, like people, you kind of find that middle ground. But the value of, like, really direct and clear feedback to me is like, the most important thing I want double barrel. I want to know the total truth of how something is so that I can apply it instantly to get better.
[00:12:22] Speaker A: Yeah. I think there's two things that you said there that, like, make so much sense to me. The first question I would ask you is, like, how did that person give you that feedback? Right. And what did it like that you responded in the way you did initially, like, hurt versus how could they have said that to you in a way that you would have been like, oh, here's new ideas. Here's how I can change directions. Here's how I can do something different next time? And then the second part is basically thinking about how my job has been stripped from companies all over the world because they don't want that feedback. Right. They want to keep doing what they're doing. So the easiest way to do that is to go, oh, we don't need research anymore. We. We don't need the feedback. We don't want someone to push us in a different direction.
[00:13:07] Speaker B: Can I answer the first one?
[00:13:09] Speaker A: Yeah, of course.
[00:13:11] Speaker B: How could the person have done it?
Well, I'll give you an example. Let's say it was Walter from Quicksand or Grill Biscuits, who I have sought feedback from before and very. He's been very, like, super, super, super generous with his time and, like, really was like, this is what's good, this is what's bad, and was very specific about it. So rather than just saying these three songs are good, the rest is filler. This. This poor guy in Germany that I'm talking about or not. Poor guy. Great, great person. It's not their responsibility to do it. Casual conversation, I'm asking. They just told me exactly what they wanted. But it it for it to have more impact if they'd had examples and specificity about it and also kind of had the historical legacy like someone like Walter has where it's like, oh, no, you really know what you're talking about. So the times that Walter's given me feedback on stuff, I've been like, got it. And not only it still stings. Actually, it stinks a lot more.
If the guy who wrote the soundtrack of many of our lives, if he's telling you something you does suck, sucks. It hurts so bad. But the way he does it is so constructive because it's. There's no d demystifying what he said. It's very specific. It's super clear. And you know how to have reference points and then apply it. Versus these three songs are good and these seven songs suck and are kind of filler because then you're like, well, what makes them filler and what's good about those songs? So the specificity and like, kind of like the ability to have been able to like, kind of tease that apart more would have helped. But also it's like, not everybody. Like, so when you're talking about the. The ebay wallet user, it's like, most people, like, I don't know anything technical. I could just say this thing works or this thing's a pain in the ass to do. Like, I can't give you all those reference points. So there's kind of value to both. Like someone who. Someone who doesn't know how to write a song necessarily. They just know what they like. Like, that's kind of cool. Like, even just figuring out, like, how to demystify that. But on the flip side, it's a lot more actionable if someone has like an expertise. So that's kind of like both sides of it.
[00:15:23] Speaker A: Yeah. And that's what I do is like, take both sides of it. Like the person that is an app, the Walter to the like, Like, I don't know, the kid that downloaded on Reddit yesterday the. The Girl of Biscuits album. Right. And I try and go to the person that's trying to make the thing be like, here are both point of views. You're going to make the decision, the right decision on how to build this. I just have the insights. I'm not going to tell you how to build it, but here, specifically here is the tactile feedback. The little Tiny thing that bothered Walter. And here's the, like, overview of how the kid heard your album or whatever. But I don't work on albums. I work on apps. But yeah, same, same. Very similar. So if you think of products, products can be anything. So actually my job started for other people. It used to be called an information architect. And it basically was like, oh, you're just fixing a website. And then it moved to hci, which is like, think of like Boeing building a space shuttle. And then now it's like there's like all different types of research that you could do. Mostly people that do my job actually have PhDs, like, fancy academics.
[00:16:29] Speaker B: So you'd mentioned that the industry is moving away from roles like yours. And, and like, basically they don't want someone to, like, tell. They don't want someone to give them the feedback. But that doesn't sound like it makes any kind of business sense. So, like, tell me about that.
[00:16:41] Speaker A: Yeah, so I think a lot of companies have, in the last. I don't know if you've seen the. Most of the big tech companies have done huge layoffs, but a lot of them have been specifically in the research space. I think a lot of that is because they had a lot of researchers and they can't see the, like, monetary impact. Like, a researcher doesn't make you a million dollars. They tell you the direction you should go in order to make a billion dollars. So they're like, cutting those. And so they're think like, oh, we can just take a bet, or we can use the old research that we had before to move forward and make decisions. And really, if you're not making informed decisions, you're probably going to go in the wrong direction. So that's, I think, a lot of the reason, like, a lot of people have been laid off or they're not finding ways to do research anymore because people just think they know better and they just make decisions on their own.
[00:17:36] Speaker B: It seems like, like the wrong direction in terms of a decision. You know, for example, what I do is kind of a little bit amorphous to, you know, someone who, who wouldn't know what, like a, what a coach does. And so, like, very often, like, you know, I'll have a friend of mine be like, what is it you even do? Like, I don't even understand what you do. And then when I break it down, they're like, oh, okay, that makes total sense. But what I, what I do is, like, equally informed by psychology, by business practices, and just like, gut feeling and kind of being able to like kind of figure things out and figure out like business context, company culture, individuals, all of that stuff. And that could be in like one on one conversations or like big, big, big conversations. Most of what I do is like ultra high stakes and, and I need feedback constantly. And that feedback could just be what I'm reading in the moment, but also like, what's our success rate? Like what's our conversion rate? So like if we're working with a client and they're able to like get a promotion or be more successful in what they're doing, like I need all that data. So we've become like much more data heavy so that we make good decisions. It would seem like a bizarre change to want less data as you change forward in such a rapidly, rapidly changing business landscape.
[00:18:52] Speaker A: So there's, you have to think too. There's like so much more data. And so people might move away and just have a data scientist rather than a researcher who was doing so. My job is, it's, there's so many research studies you can do and there's so many points of data that companies have now. It can be everything from a conversion rate to a click through rate. But that's very different than the qualitative how and why are you doing something? Or the quantitative, let's measure this thing specifically based on a psych psychometric measure and then kind of take those feelings or those like psychological measures and then build something based on those. And so a lot of companies are like, we don't need that, right? Like we don't need the feelings, we don't need the kind of like bottom level foundational how and why we're just going to use the numbers. And that is where like mixed methodology is getting skipped. And they're making decisions off of a number which is usually how much money can we make, how much click through can we make. So a great example of this is I worked on public Facebook groups and they decided to be like, we're not going to have membership anymore because we want more engagement. So they were like, oh, let's just let anyone come to a Facebook group and post whatever they want. If you think about that as an admin of a group, when I do a qualitative interview with an admin and I'm like, hey, I'm going to just take away membership. Anyone can post in your group. The admin is going to go, oh my God, no. You're ruining my group. You're ruining the culture of my group. You're going to take away everything that my Group means it's going to become Spam xyz, all the bad things happen. But if you just went on the data and all the people came into the Facebook group and started posting, it looks great, right? Tons of engagement. But then really you might be dismantling the whole group altogether in the culture. So I think that's kind of like a good example of how different data and different points and focusing on understanding how a user uses your product can really affect the success of your business in the long run. But people will shortcut on that because it is much harder. Takes much more time, it costs a lot more money. So when they're measuring at the end of the day the business outcomes, it's not typically how users feel, it's how much money they're making.
[00:21:11] Speaker B: So if you were to look around the corner, and maybe not the corner, like maybe the next two or three corners, if this continued shift, like for moving from roles like yours continues, what do you think is going to be the outcome for some of these platforms?
[00:21:25] Speaker A: I mean, I think we're already there. I think they hired researchers to do tons and tons of great research and they have it, but they're not listening to it. They're still focusing on things. So think of Instagram, right? It's a mall, right? Look at Facebook. Do. Do we use Facebook anymore? All these, all these apps are dying because they didn't listen to the users or they didn't really, like, kind of follow the direction of making it feel good and building community rather than, how can we make more money, how can we add more ads, how can we, like full day, even TikTok, right? All the shop stuff, like, all. It's, it's. These apps do not feel good anymore. They're like dopamine rushes. They're draining you thin rather than filling your cup. Which is now interesting because there's so many companies looking into wellness, into mental health, into building all these new types of things. Because I think they might be listening to some of the, like, formative research that is telling us that we really should be kind of investing in users and doing the best by them because then they will actually engage with your product and feel fulfilled by it as.
[00:22:37] Speaker B: A general, like, it's a really, like, super, like, super insightful. Like, I, you know, just with, just with my friends, like, we'll joke around sometimes. Like when we first all started using social media, we'd complain. It'd be like, I am sick of seeing photos of people's, like, meals and their kids. Like, I don't care about that. But now it's like, oh my God, I plea please. All I want to see is photos of like, what you're eating and like your kids. I don't want to hear like, everybody's like crazy opinion on everything and have it and like everyone's angry and it's just like, you know that doom scrolling and all of that. I actually got off of all social media, although, like, I have like, like Instagram account. It's just really for the podcast and I don't even personally post on it because I found the whole thing, like, just too draining. It would it. I was oddly drawn to it. Like, I was constantly using it and like, constantly, like kind of engaging with it, but it just made me feel bad about myself, it made me anxious, it made me depressed. And one day I just was like, I don't want this anymore. And I just took it off my phone. I changed my password. I gave it over to our marketing people and just said, okay, just use it for the podcast. I don't think I'll ever go back. I feel 100% better after it. But I used to love social media and I used to love Instagram and all those things just. Something changed.
[00:23:56] Speaker A: Yeah, like six years ago I was actually doing research on that, specifically on polarization and some of the ways that people were politically going and that people were just feeling hateful towards each other and it was just going in this really negative direction. And a lot of that research was not used. And so it kind of think that like, when you asked, did it turn the corner, I was like, actually was doing that good research back in the day and now here we are and people are fleeing from it because they don't feel good about it. Like, even during COVID like, I think I. So one of my hobbies is roller skating, and I was roller skating every single day during.
During the pandemic. And I've stopped roller skating recently because I need to shed almost the social media part of it. So the actual influence of social media on the culture has been so negative that I had to take a break and go back without thinking about that at all and like, only skate for myself, only do that for my own small, like, surrounding people and culture and people that I see day to day versus kind of like the big. The big roller skating Instagram world. I need to just kind of be like, oh, here's me with my little wheelie shoes and like, kind of focus on that. And that's actually helped me a lot to kind of like revisit the things that mean a lot to me. It's funny because I'm not even connected to any of the hardcore cultural type of online stuff. I was in some of those like terrible Facebook groups with like just the women from hardcore. And it was devastating, like how like all the negative things that happened there and all the polarization and all the heartbreak of like, like lots of people being canceled or hurt or like trauma dumping. So Yeah, I agree 100%.
[00:25:42] Speaker B: So I talk a lot in the work that I do. I talk a lot with people about the importance of writing. So when people are writing emails or putting out like memos and stuff, and it might seem kind of like an odd thing for someone with a therapeutic background to focus on, but the thing that I, the way I always position it is our ability to communicate almost instantly has far outstripped our ability to formulate that thinking clearly, concisely and quickly. So like, a lot of us come from like the background of if you're writing something outside of just like a note to your friend or whoever, like you came up in school writing essays, taking your time, or writing a letter, taking your time, kind of thinking what you're going to say and then, you know, with an essay, like literally when I was a kid, I was like writing essays.
I wasn't good enough on a typewriter or whatever before computers. And then the Internet happens and within a few years it's like you've gone to. The immediacy of written communication is super high, which of course is leading to tons of super long emails that nobody reads or emotionally charged emails and all this stuff. And breaking it down to the idea that going slow down to go fast, like take your time, think what you want to say, say it properly, then send it, send it. Make sure it's nice and short so that the, the end user has to do as little effort to understand. And the way like I'm always trying to talk to people about the end user of something, like the end user of your conversation should have to do very little effort to understand what you're saying or decode what you're saying. The end user of your, of your email should have to do very, very little effort.
So the reason I'm saying that is like from your perspective, like social media, when it came in, I think everyone was like, hell yeah, this is amazing. But there does seem to be this kind of like, I don't know if it's like a pause or a consideration where more often than not, when I talk to people about anything with Social media, they're like, I just can't. So has social media just gotten so far ahead of people's ability to interact with it in a healthy way?
Is. Is that what it is or is it something else? Is it that the companies are just on the wrong track and they're basically, they're creating kind of this hellscape that we're all switching swept in?
[00:27:56] Speaker A: No, polarization has been existing since the beginning of time. Like heuristics groups, like group dynamics has been something that we can study all the way back to Rome. Right? Like, I don't think that polarization has ever not been there. People tend to have tribal thinking or kind of like go against each other. Like Yankees fans and Sox fans would hate each other. That's right.
[00:28:21] Speaker B: That's good.
[00:28:21] Speaker A: That's a really good or not right.
However, I do think that the, the speed at which technology has grown and the way that we effectively polarize. So the effective polarization is that I hate you because you believe X thing or I like want to fight you because you're wearing this, right? Or like, I think that is where it has been exacerbated by social media. Because we can box people heuristically so easily and have no common ground with them. So I can say go fuck yourself to someone who voted for Trump, right? Because I voted the opposite way or whatever, because I assume that they're a horrible human being, whereas that person might actually have tons of stuff in common with me. So I think a good example is I went to start going to skate park. I like abided to all the like a cab. Like, not like, not into like whatever my politics. But I met a person who was a wonderful skater, a mom. She was a community person. She brought snacks every Sunday to the park. And then I found out she was a cop later, like three months later. And then that was. I was like, oh, whoa, this is so crazy because I would never in my life be friends with someone who was a law enforcement officer. And like having that common ground is gone on social media. It's like really hard to find. And so the research that I was doing back in the day was like trying to find common ground between people. And it was like, oh, we both like magic cards or oh, we both like roller skating or oh, we both love dogs. Like that's when dog spotting was like the most popular group, right? Because everyone loves a cute little dog hanging out the window. And so I think social media is moving so fast that we're able to like think that we know million things about a person, but we don't actually know anything about them at all. We just can, like, put them in a little box and assume all these things about them.
[00:30:23] Speaker B: It brings forward that, that idea of othering, only viewing people through their, through the negative traits that you perceive they have because they belong to some group. And it's like, well, if they're this, then they're X, Y and Z.
Yeah, same.
[00:30:36] Speaker A: Same exact concept.
[00:30:38] Speaker B: Yeah, I like, you know, it's funny being, you know, vegan. It is, you know, depending who you talk to. It's like, oh, I'm vegan. People are like, oh, hell yeah. Have you been to, like, when we first met? It's like, oh, have you been to a Nixie? Which is so funny because it's mine and Monica's favorite restaurant now. Thank you to you and Clint and shout out to Clint for that. Versus, like, hey, I'm vegan. And someone's like, oh, you're one of those, you know, and like, they're, you know, they've got this idea about you because of that. You're like, I wish I hadn't said anything. And I love what you said earlier. It's like that kind of polarization has always been part of the human experience. And it makes sense from a psychological pattern is. Life is so complex and you have so many inputs constantly. It's just easy to put things in buckets, like good, bad, safe, dangerous, easy, hard. All of these things just so you can figure out how you want to process all the different inputs. It makes total, total sense. But then the stuff that you're talking about where it's like, oh, oh, my God, like, is the world full of, like, the worst people I've ever. I could ever imagine? Because that's, that's what social media is telling me right now.
[00:31:45] Speaker A: Right? Is everyone, like, they're either a bad person or then we find another thing to make them a bad person rather than trying to find something good about them or something that, like, we can find. Like, it. That's why the Thanksgiving table is a mess now, right? Like, you can hate your mom for something like, which is important. It's not. Not important. But because of who they're voted, it can change your whole family dynamic. And I think that's what it's like, devastating. At the same time, it's like, oh, they're, they're. Why are we not learning the things that we can undo that at the Thanksgiving table instead, we're blocking each other. We're not going to Thanksgiving anymore. We, like, they're gone. Like, I don't have a mom anymore. Like, that stuff is so, so hard. It's like, how do we come back to the table and find something that, like, oh, the mashed potatoes taste great. Like, we're forgetting all of that. And I think social media is making that much, much worse.
[00:32:42] Speaker B: So I know this is a big question, but, you know, obviously social media is not going anywhere. These businesses exist and. And also these businesses are, like, then been awesome in many ways. Like, I mean, the podcast, I share it, like, on social media and like the different channels of social media, and I love it. What's the path back to something a little bit more healthy? Because I am going to. I'll bring up in a little bit, you know, some of the reset, like Mark ZUCKERBERG, like, seemingly 180 turns and all that. Well, on that, as much as you're comfortable with. But what. What is. What is a the path back?
[00:33:16] Speaker A: I think the new thing is authenticity and organic content. And what's weird, though, is that when people brand authenticity and organic content, they mean, like, you're gonna sell this thing and be yourself versus you're gonna be you and you're going to represent you wholly, right? And I think that is the person coming on and talking about their cancer survival or a person saying, hey, I struggle today, or those kind of authentic, organic type of things are very different than, like, oh, I have a pimple, you should buy this cream. Like, and I think when the ability for everyday people to tell their stories will always be like, something I think that social media is great for, right? So, like, Joe Schmo, like, me or whoever can become viral. That's kind of cool, right? Like, the guy that was, like, drinking the cranberry juice now, like, can buy a house, right? Like, that's amazing. Or like, someone can do a little dance and, like, it will make your day. I don't. I think that social media has, like, its terrors and it's. And it's like, you know, successes. And something that can bring us back into the success of social media is to, like, change those algorithms to not polarize people, but also to uplift people. And that's why I love that there's, like, apps to do therapy on, there's podcasts like this. There's like, fun things that you can add. Like, there's new emojis. There's all types of things. So, like, it's never all downfilled. There's always something positive that can come from social media. But it's really that companies have to invest in that. And so divesting from diversity, like, valuing things, integrity, like, that's. They have to invest in more places where they're going to make people feel fulfilled. Fulfilled, or they're gonna do good things for people instead of just making money off of them.
[00:35:14] Speaker B: Like, what you just said is so interesting to me, like, as a total sidebar to what you're saying. This podcast specifically, like, when people ask me, what's the hardest part of owning your own business? And I'll tell you, like, like, the hardest thing, like, I have a very fun, like, super fun job. I'm super fortunate to have the business. Like, I love who I work with. I love our clients. It's, like, been really, really cool. The hardest thing is this podcast, and I'll tell you why. I love these conversations with people. And it's like, so, like, it's just cool and fun. You get to know people, you get to hear different things. But our podcast is, like, ultra niche. So, like, yeah, there's like, some musical content, but we're not here talking about, like, a classic record, you know, Like, I'm not, like, unpacking stuff. I'm not talking about music, gossip. I'm not like. And no shine. Like, I think those are all. I mean, I listen to podcasts like that. It's not like a sports podcast. It's not this, it's not that. It's like, what we do is, like, quite niche. It's just like, talking to people about careers, business, like, all of that kind of stuff. And we don't do, like, salacious stuff. Like, we might cover, like, we might talk about some things that are, like, difficult or challenging, and I'm totally down for that. But we don't ever, like, go for, like, the negative angle. And at one point, because, you know, I spent a lot of time doing this stuff, at one point we hired someone just, like, a consultant, and we're like, hey, like, can you take a listen to the podcast and tell us, like, what we could be doing better to kind of broaden our audience?
Because it's growing and like, we're. We're at a place where I'm, like, pretty comfortable with what we've done, and it's. It's kind of doing the things we needed to do for the business. So I'm largely happy with it, but of course I want to get better what we do. And the first thing they said was, like, all your titles for your clips should be, like, negative. And like, you. You should be, like, essentially, like, looking for, like. Like, negative stuff to put forward, and then in the thing actually have kind of, like, a different take on it or, like, focus on negative things.
[00:37:12] Speaker A: You need a content designer.
[00:37:14] Speaker B: I can't. Like, I just don't want to put out anything so late. Like, and it's not like, I'm not against, like, talking about controversial things. Of course. Like, yeah, like, I mean, my job is having tough conversations with people all day, every day. But, like, I don't want. I just don't. Like. And there's no shine off anyone else. I just. It's not what I'm interested in. Like, I just want to talk to people about cool stuff that fills up my cup. And I like. And I want to be like, hell, yeah. Like, I want to celebrate what people do and talk about the challenges, and I just don't want to make anything salacious. And for anyone who does, again, no shine off of anyone. I literally don't care. But I would rather, like, do this podcast for a hundred years and grow by, like, 10 followers a year than put out a bunch of stuff that I felt bad about just to get a bunch of people. It just is, like, the inverse of what I want to do. So all of that to say is, I really appreciate the way that you framed this up, but now I have. Anything you want to say about what I just said before I go into a Facebook question?
[00:38:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Would you like to know why I wanted to come on your podcast?
[00:38:17] Speaker B: Please.
[00:38:18] Speaker A: The reason that I wanted to come on your podcast was because I think back in the day, you were in one of, like, as far as people go, when I was in hardcore, one of the things that I wanted to do was, like, be a big representative of Straight Edge and kind of, like, see people out there. And your band back then did that and really, like, represented kind of the west coast out in the world. And I think I've seen people on your podcast that don't look like me, that are considered, I don't know, like, celebrities in hardcore. And there's none of the celebrities in hardcore look like me or sound like me or have my experiences, But I know there's many, many women there that do have similar experiences to me. And so I think knowing that I was. I did still take the DIY spirit in the hardcore and kind of, like, take that to heart. But I consider myself more of a, like, hardcore survivor, not necessarily a member anymore because of what it did to me. And so I think coming on here was, like, part of, like, oh, I can actually connect my culture, which I'm disconnected from because I'm adopted and I don't participate as much anymore and, like, really kind of like realizing that into the individual that I am today. And so I think that was, like, important for me to come on and talk about. And so when I met you and you said you were doing all these things, and I see you have also done the path of, like, becoming successful in your own right and still being involved in the culture. It was just very interesting to me, and I wanted to be a part of that.
[00:39:49] Speaker B: Oh, thank you so much. There's a lot of stuff you said in there that if you wouldn't mind, I'd love to. I'd love to touch base on.
[00:39:56] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:39:57] Speaker B: You mentioned. And wherever you want to go with this, you mentioned not being like, let's say, a participant of hardcore now, but a survivor of it. What. What is. What does that mean for you?
[00:40:07] Speaker A: For me, it means that I, like, still I love hardcore. I love the music, I always will. But I think that it shaped my adolescence and my growth in a way that was detrimental to me and not didn't help me flourish in a way that I think I might have done in a different subculture or with different people around me. I also think that I saw people grow out of it and then become much more successful because they had gone through those experiences, but they're now out of it and they don't. They don't have to relate to that. I think a lot of the women that I met through hardcore have been through so much, whether it was any kind of emotional abuse, just kind of like the difference in, like, how white dudes experience it versus versus females, having no access to kind of, like the roles in hardcore. Like, like how many people are putting on shows, how many women are in, like, the best bands in hardcore. Like, just there's not good representation. And so I see myself as kind of someone who's survived those experience but, like, forced from them and still use them and apply them to my life. But also know that, like, the culture still kind of has a lot of those things that have hurt me in the past and that I want to grow from them and, like, choosing very curated, like, which shows I go to, which people I surround myself, what boundaries I have. And I'm kind of like, not going back to the, like, mean bully hardcore person I was maybe 20 years ago, but still taking the good lessons that I had into my career and my growth and the new subcultures and new sports that I take on.
[00:41:55] Speaker B: So first, like, thank you so much about like, that vulnerability because it's can, like, it's tough stuff to talk about and I really appreciate it. I can relate. I can relate either from a. Like having experienced some negative stuff or having been part of someone else's negative experience, like through, like, people I've. I've been connected with.
And it's a, it's a, it's a sticky thing. I, I subculture, let's say like hardcore. If I was focused on it, it can be, it can be tough because there's just so many, like, incredible, amazing things to learn and gain from hardcore. And also there's like, no parents in the room. And what I mean by that is this is like, there's this idea. It's like, oh, we take care of ourselves. We're a community. We're. We're this. And it's like, yeah, until we're not. And there's.
[00:42:48] Speaker A: Do we though? Do we though?
[00:42:51] Speaker B: But it's, it's, it's an interesting thing, right? Because, like, I also think what you're talking about is like the typical experience of like, you know, this is like your average white guy versus other, other like, groups within underrepresented groups or groups that are represented but have a different experience. It's like depending who you talk to, right? Because it is pretty unique. But when I say there's no parents in the room, it's like, usually the next generation that has accrued a lot of wisdom and understanding of the subculture have like, moved on. Like, you know, they've gone on to other things or they're in, in bands and, you know, like, like successful bands. And they're not necessarily, like, super accessible to you. Like, they are, but they're not, you know, like, so it's like there's no parents in the room. It's just essentially like kind of kids taking care of each other. And there are huge merits to that and unbelievable things that come as a result of that. But there's also like, a lot of bad shit that either people are too young or too naive or like, intentionally doing and not caring about or don't recognize what's going on. So, yeah, I don't know if this is related to. Only to hardcore, but I could say from my hardcore experience, it's been.
It has so many amazing, beautiful, powerful things, but also some like, really difficult, difficult stuff.
[00:44:07] Speaker A: No, I agree. Yeah. I think it's. Nothing has good without having some kind of opposite side to it. 100.
[00:44:16] Speaker B: You also mentioned your adoption Story, whatever you'd be interested in sharing.
[00:44:22] Speaker A: Yeah, so I am a multiracial adoptee. My birth mother came from the Philippines. Well, she's Vietnamese Chinese. She migrated to the Philippines and then came to America. I'm a domestic adoptee, and then I grew up in Orange County. I was actually adopted in the United States by my parents through the county of Orange, which is very, very uncommon. Most Asian adoptees I meet are international adoptees, or they were adopted kind of like in a different way through, like, family or something like that. So I have an interesting adoptee story. I think that actually gave me a lot of, like, kind of the abandonment punk issues that most kids have where they're, like, trying to find their identity, trying. Trying to connect with people. Because I grew up in mainly, like, middle class, rich, white Orange county. And that was really hard for me. And so that's kind of how I got into punk. Like, I really wanted to be different. I wanted to hear different things, do things differently, not be mainstream.
[00:45:19] Speaker B: So, yeah, I know, like, punk is still part of your experience, but as you've kind of like, moved from that being such a big part of who you are, your identity, is your adoption story kind of, like, changed? Is that. Or your experience of that, like, kind of change in retrospect or who you are today kind of coming to a different focus?
[00:45:38] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a good question. So I actually wrote a song in my band to my mother that was about her abandoning me. And basically it was like, kind of. I always had this feeling that I had to become successful so that I could, like, meet my mom's future and prove to her her. And then that song is filled with rage. It's like, so emotional. It's like a really. It's like a very yelly punk song. And then I actually did some research where I found out that she passed away when I was in high school. And I had no idea because when I was 27, I went to. So because I was adopted through the county, I had to go to the county, write a letter, and then the. The letter goes to the county, and then they check if she had written a letter, and then they connect you, and then they assign you social workers, and then they do all this thing. And so when I had been 27, I, like, just sent this letter and got nothing back. And so I was like, oh, she just doesn't care. She doesn't want to hang out with me. Like, I was so mad. And then I found out just doing kind of like, general, like, when everyone was Doing, like, the DNA research, I found out that she had passed. Passed away. And then I was like, oh, like this. This paints the story so different from me. And it actually, like, really, like. I don't know, it's. It's interesting that in 2004, she died, because that was such a pivotal year. I think for me, it was when I graduated high school. It's when I, like, was, like, deep in hardcore and, like, trying to figure out who I was. And if I had met her, then I think that probably wouldn't have been the best time to meet her. And so I don't know. I don't know if there's an answer, whether it changed me or not, because I think we all change and grow. But I do think it has been pivotal in, like, how I approach things, how I connect with people, how I see myself and my identity and how I, like, try and connect with people, because I love to connect with people that aren't my family and treat them like family. Like, if you become my friend, I. Like, I feel like you're connected to me that way. Like, it's blood. Doesn't matter to me. It's, like, just who you are and what you represent and how you come into my life is, like, much more important to me than necessarily, like, blood or whatever.
[00:47:57] Speaker B: Do you want to say anything more on that, or do you want to go back into kind of the business side of things?
[00:48:02] Speaker A: Yeah, we go back to the business. We talk about Facebook.
[00:48:05] Speaker B: All right. I am. And I love everything you just shared there. Like, it's really.
It's the second time in the past few months that adoption has come into the conversation, and it's just, like, such a. And how that is, like, formative for the person. Like, you know, and how they've kind of made sense of it through punk and hardcore and how they got older is really. It's like there's, like, an adoption story in. In. In my family, not. Not on my side. And I know the impact of that, so it's always really awesome when people share that. So thank you so much. It's really, really meaningful.
One step.
[00:48:50] Speaker A: One step beyond.
