Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: So by the time I was old enough to get a part time job, my mum was like, okay, you're old enough to go and get a job now for Saturday work, take your CV into all the shops around town and see if you can get some work. I came home and she said, oh, how many places did you step into and who's got your letter and your cv? Oh, two. What? Why only two? There are only two record shops in Leicester.
[00:00:30] Speaker B: That was a clip from today's guest. Everybody, welcome back to the show. Today's guest is someone that I have kind of known for years. Like we actually have never spoken outside of today, but I followed their career and just seen how they represent their ideas online and been super, super impressed and also just like kind of a cool professional story. Lots to get out of it before we get to it. Please subscribe to the podcast. It is a huge, huge difference maker so if you could hit that button, I'd really appreciate it. This is one step beyond Kathy. Welcome to the show.
[00:01:20] Speaker A: Hey Aram, thanks for having me. Great to be here and to chat with you at last.
[00:01:25] Speaker B: Yeah, it's so wild how we have kind of been in each other's circle for many, many years but really never known each other but have been also like interacting with each other on LinkedIn and different platforms. So it's great to connect in person.
[00:01:39] Speaker A: Yeah, it's great to speak with you Aram, after, like you said, we've been chatting on LinkedIn. I've been following the Cadence Leadership podcast and all that good stuff and I've really loved, yeah, following along, getting a load of tips and tricks. But you know, the cherry on top is the fact that a lot of what I've learned from your podcast has also come from a bit of the DIY punk sort of mindset that many of us grew up with as teenagers. So yeah, this to me is like leadership, the music element, being resourceful, doing something with, you know, very little and making things happen. And yeah, it's great to be here and to chat with you.
[00:02:21] Speaker B: Heck yeah. All right, so to start, for the uninitiated, for those who don't know, who are you and what do you do?
[00:02:29] Speaker A: Okay, well my name's Cathy Ramsey. I currently reside in New Jersey with my husband and my, my iron maiden obsessed stepson. As you can tell, I'm not a native, so I'm originally from the uk. I was born and raised in Leicester in the Midlands. Had a great music scene as a teenager, exposed me to punk, hardcore and just being a music Obsessive. Yeah, that passion for music, sort of. I was one of those teenagers who only wanted to work in music.
So I started out at an independent record store when I was 16, worked there for a number of years throughout college and then that really sort of kick started my career. I've enjoyed over 20 years in the music industry and that's ranged from distribution, independent labels, major labels and now my current situation is I've just wrapped up running Warner Music Group's college marketing program, Warner Music U. Where I've had the privilege of leading approximately 30, 18 to 24 year olds who were that I was in their shoes at one point in my career. So it's been a real privilege to be able to mentor and coach them and provide opportunities for them to get their own head start in the business. So yeah, in a nutshell that was a long answer that I'm someone with a passion for music, who's always worked in music aside from a pivot into teaching and mentoring. And I care deeply about the next generation of music industry and marketing professionals.
[00:04:10] Speaker B: Heck yeah. Awesome. Lots to unpack there. Let's start with a question. I'm always curious about when anyone works in the industry.
Why, why do you work in the music industry?
[00:04:23] Speaker A: I can imagine. Sometimes you hear the answer, I'm a glutton for public punishment.
No, absolutely not. No, for me it was, it was just a no brainer. I grew up so influenced by my home situation where my parents really valued music in our home.
So I mean if you can imagine like 4 year old Kathy with her first ever 7 inch record player and my dad every week would buy my mum a 7 inch from the news agent like to get, he'd get the Sunday papers and a 7 inch single which in the early 80s in England that would have been about like less than a pound to pay for. So you know, it was like I saw this music sort of being exchanged as a love language and in our house it was like yeah, the record collection was really important. And then as a kid it was just, you know, music really spoke to me even just at a very young age to the point where I would love telling my friends about a Belinda Carlisle song or the Go Go's or whatever, you know I was like seven when I was talking about this music and feeling that passion. So by the time I was old enough to get a part time job, my mum was like okay, you're old enough to go and get a job now for Saturday work, take your CV into all the shops around town and see if you can get some work. I came home and she said, oh, how many places did you step into? And who's got your letter and your cv? Oh, two. What? Why only two? There are only two record shops in Leicester.
So I was lucky enough. I was like 15 when I started and I wasn't even old enough to serve the customers at that point. So I was literally cleaning shelves through the Christmas period, putting out the display covers and just sort of like being, wow, I'm surrounded by music. This is amazing. I'm seeing what people are buying. I see if they like that artist, they also buy this and this and this and this. And then keep in mind, this was like 1995. So definitely pre Internet.
Eventually I was old enough to serve the customers. I stayed there for six years or so and started a punk and hardcore section in the store, which was my baby.
And it was just, yeah, just doing, working, being surrounded by other music obsessives, the customers as well, being able to recommend music to them. I was never one of those high fidelity people that would be snobby. It would be, oh my God, you have to check this out. This is coming from America. You've got to hear this band. So, yeah, I think that's why that, that's at the core of it. It's that passion. And I still have that passion for discovering new artists and being able to talk about it and come up with marketing ideas and think, okay, who would love this artist? How do we reach them? And then also navigating all the changes in the business as well and how we consume music. This is why I'm here. This is why I'm still here. Don't be fooled by the records. I have embraced every format throughout all these years. So when, you know, Spotify was launched in Europe, it was like, this is amazing because not only I'm not going to stop buying CDs and vinyl and whatever, but now I've got access to so much other stuff as well. It became more of a supplemental way of listening to or discovering music. I didn't have to just go and buy something I can now explore. And yeah, I'm.
This is my passion. This is what I love.
[00:08:10] Speaker B: Clearly. Totally. So I'm going to ask you a really, like, impossibly broad question to take it in any direction you want. And the reason I'm going to ask you this is because you've worked in so many different parts of the music industry. So just imagine, just a layperson who doesn't really understand how the music industry works. Just in the most general terms, how does the music industry work, operate as a business?
[00:08:31] Speaker A: Yeah, so I mean, my expertise, although I've had a varied sort of path, my expertise really is focused on the recorded music side of the industry.
So let's be clear, the live music side is a whole other beast. So in recorded music, you can think, well imagine at the moment, we have the major labels, we have Warner, we have Universal, we have Sony. In the older days, there used to be more of those labels.
You know, the market was spread a little more. And then of course, we have like countless smaller independent labels of all shapes and sizes and genres that they specialize in.
So, I mean, my path was really forged through the entry point being really punk, anything heavy, that kind of genre, that's what carried me through my career. So within that niche, because after working at the record store, I landed a job as a label manager at an independent music distributor. Now music distributor. To make things a little more complex for anyone who is not necessarily familiar with the business, just think like a wholesaler, they have a whole vast array of record labels that they work with and they make sure that if the product is physical product, it gets shipped to the stores. Well, you know, it's a little more complex than that. You have to sell it into the stores and have the marketing reasons for the stores to take the stock. And then with the digital releases, they make sure that those releases are all available on all the usual digital service providers such as Apple Music, Spotify, Diesel, all of those big ones.
So in distribution, that was a really interesting area to be in because in that role as label manager, I got to work with at least 30 independent record labels, mostly from the US such as now Aram. You all know these like, Revelation. I was their label manager for the UK and fatrec, which is another punk label. But then also European labels such as Germany's Nuclear Blast, which is a heavy hitter in rock and metal. So yeah, and then of course lots of UK small independent labels as well, but mostly that distributor specialized in punk and hardcore and metal. So I was firmly in that niche.
So what I'm speaking on today is you can kind of replicate it to, you know, indie, you know, it works similarly regardless of genre. There are specialist companies out there that, you know, focus on a niche genre.
So there's the distribution side of it. And then also to illustrate how the business works, I will use my career path because it kind of goes quite linear here. So if you imagine on this end of the scale is the record stores and the Fans. And then on the very other end of the scale, we've got the artists and the music.
So I started really customer facing, interacting with fans, people who bought the records and whatever else.
Now my next step in the business went into distribution. So in other words, another step, very tiny step closer to the music, where distribution would be responsible for getting those products into the stores. Whether they're physical or digital, they are a little step further away from the consumer. And then my career going into independent labels, major labels, that's another step closer to the actual music. Because with roles like marketing, product management, international product management, in those roles, I was interacting not only with the distributors or the other companies that would get our music out there to the world for commercial release, but I was also interacting with the artist managers, the artists themselves, the A and R teams. So in essence, that was as close to the actual source, the music, the art that I have got to in my career. I am not an art, I am not a musician, I am not an artist. I love all this other stuff as much as I love the art itself. So I think that might be the easiest way I personally can explain the business in that sense.
[00:13:06] Speaker B: Yeah, the reason I ask is like, it's simple, but also hopelessly complex. I like how you described music, like how you saw it expressed in your family as a love language. And if we go with that idea, like people love music, it expresses something for them sometimes like a song, a song that someone else wrote is the best way that you can express how you feel about something to another person. Like, you know, mixtapes and all those kinds of things. And then other end, so you see, you've got the consumer of it, like the fan, the believer. And then on the other end, you've got the artist who's creating something that's like meaningful for them, but between. So that's like the simplest way of looking at it. If you've got these two parties, you've got the creator and the people who are like hungry for the creator. But in between you've got this expanding Oreo cookie of complex webs of how you get from the artist to the person. And something I often say is that for musicians the easiest thing in the world to do is to write a great song. And writing a great song is the easiest part of putting out a record, because it's the one thing you can control, is writing a great song. But if you write a great song, and let's say you write 10 other or 12 other great songs, you make an album that's the easiest thing because then you have to record it and you have to hope not just the recording goes well, that the engineer knows what they're doing. But you get the right takes in the studio. But then you have to mix it and you have to like mix the thing and hope the person who's mixing it knows what they're doing. Then you have to master it. You got to hope the person who's mastering knows what they're doing. Then you have to hope that the person who's doing the art like gets the record and can kind of create something really cool.
That's a whole beast. But then when you hand into the label, if you're lucky enough to have a label, but then if you have a label, you got to hope that they're able to schedule it at the right time so that it's going to work for like, you know, it's coming out at the right time where it's not going to be overshadowed by other releases. It's going to support like how you can tour on the record and that you've got to have the right distributors who like market it the right way. It's like it's so complex to get something from you creating it to, to someone else that really at the end of the day, when someone's like, I can't believe so and so wrote such a great song, it's like, yeah, that's actually literally the easiest part of it. Although it's hard. There are so many things that could go wrong from the, when you finish writing that song to when someone actually purchases that music. And that's why the music industry, I think is like often not really understood because it's like so complex. Even though the idea of it is like, I create it, you listen to it is so simple.
[00:15:41] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And it's also like if you imagine from, well, the artist's perspective, you're at the point that you've sort of handed it into the label.
It must be so nerve wracking because you've completely relinquished control to hundreds and hundreds of variables. Will you even have the right team working on it?
Will the staff care? How do you make sure that you have the right team when it's not necessarily up to you? So you know, it's. And that's a really, it's an interesting way that a lot of independent labels differentiate themselves as well is to how artist friendly they say they are and then, you know, actually are and live up to that too. So yeah, it's, it is a real minefield. We're only touching on the recorded music side side. As I say, live, live music side of the business. Entirely different beast, but obviously there is an overlap there because, like you say, you need to make sure you've got your record available. If you're touring, you want to be able to sell it direct to your fans when you're on the road. And then the other part of the industry that we, you know, would be a whole separate conversation, of course, is publishing. Now that is another minefield that many of us, you know, are still constantly learning about.
So, you know, there's so many organizations involved. Yeah, there's a lot for an artist to take on here and to at least grasp who the main players are and how things function.
[00:17:15] Speaker B: So your continued, like. Because I can. I can just see it as you're talking about it. Your continued, like, belief and passion in music is, like, really, really apparent, which is interesting after having been in the industry so long. So Chris Wren, who runs Bridge 9 Records, when he was on the podcast, but also he. He had said this to me, like, many times throughout our. Throughout our friendship. Chris Ren never drew his salary from Bridge 9. He always drew his salary from his other business ventures. And I asked him about it when we were, like, quite a bit younger. And I was like, dude, why don't you just make Bridge nine your whole thing and don't worry about all these other things? And he's like, honestly, man, I don't really want my. I don't want to earn my living off of. Off of the label. Because once I earn my living off the label, I have to start making decisions based on what's going to make money instead of what I like. And I always thought that was such a cool way of looking at it.
Like, the idea that if you're not financially tied to something, you can make decisions. Just like, I don't care if the sell is like a thousand copies or 10,000 copies or 20,000. I just want to see this exist because I like it. So having been someone who's been, like, professionally involved in music for so long, have you maintained. Been able to maintain your passion while also, like, dealing with the realities of finding things and working on things that are going to sell?
[00:18:36] Speaker A: Yeah. I think in that respect, fully appreciate it because, you know, it becomes there are things that I've done as well that have been a pure labor of love. And you don't want to have to make compromises and you want the art to be the art and, you know, know. And that's also why I love the punk and the hardcore scene because it's all about sort of. Well, actually, this is going to come out when it comes out because I'm putting all this love into this release.
So, yeah, absolutely. When you're working at a label, though, it's so different because everyone is on a strict deadline and that goes all the way to the artist, to the point where, you know, that they need to deliver the master. They need to deliver the. All of the. What they call the label copy or the credits information for the royalties and the, you know, not to mention the artwork. So maintaining that headspace. I mean, for me, I've been very fortunate because I have, you know, in essence, I've been a worker bee. I haven't put my, you know, my own money into these companies. I've been a salaried employee. So there is that. But then at the end of the day, there is always that. That relationship that exists between the art and the commerciality.
So, I mean, yeah, during my time as international product manager at Roadrunner International, you know, of course I had to look at things with a real commercial lens because even though it's not my money, I still had to make sure that. That we were doing the bands, the artists themselves, we were doing them justice and they were able to grow their careers and sell more than they had previously and so on.
So in that aspect, I mean, I'm glad. I've never really been in a position where I've had to cut corners. I haven't had to compromise.
But instead what happens is you have the conversations with the artist or with the artist. Management quite often is, you know, most of the time, and you just say, hey, I want you to know that if we do add this extra element to the vinyl pressing, the cost will go up by this. And that could have the. The following impact on how many will ship or how many the stores will be able to take.
So, yeah, in my experience, it's all. It's been all about communication, so that the people who really are in charge of the arts are able to understand or, you know, have the influence in the decisions that are being made, but having them on board to understand that, you know, that we have the same goal of making sure there is a commercial success to what is being worked on and released.
[00:21:26] Speaker B: I'm really interested in your. In your take on this. So for a lot of forms of music, the idea that music is a commodity that's intended to be sold so that as many people as possible can hear your music, and ideally you'd partner with something like a major label and management companies and all these things. So you get on the biggest festivals and biggest platforms ever. That would be the majority of music. But then there's this weird inversion in punk and hardcore where it's like now if you go down certain routes, you're selling out and you're conforming, performing, you're doing all this stuff and you're doing it so that you can like get in front of people. You live in an interesting cross section where you come from, like punk and hardcore. But you've also worked in like things that are like, no. Like, music is a commercial venture. So what are your thoughts on, on that kind of punk approach of like. No, if you try and get out in front of as many people as possible and you take more commercial routes that you're like, I don't know, like quote unquote, a sellout.
[00:22:24] Speaker A: Yep. This is the age old discussion being called a sellout. And I mean, yeah, I. My view is if, let's say a punk band really does sort of like start, they start blazing a path and the other punk bands haven't blazed in the past and they somehow smash that ceiling. Because there is a ceiling. I've seen the numbers over the years and I pretty much know what that is.
And yet they somehow do not alienate their original fan base, their original community that they came from. And I think community is probably the most important word there. If they're not alienating their community where they started out, I think it's amazing. It's fantastic. It's like fair play. This is a. This is so cool for you. You're playing music that you love for as long as you love doing it. You get to go over the world, you get to play in, you know, in front of so many different cultures, different audiences, and you, you know, you're known worldwide. I mean, I think that it's truly, truly amazing.
The part that I find difficult to let go of is when you get some bands that do kind of make it and get accused of being sold out because they somehow have neglected their core, they've forgotten their roots. And I, you know, I think you know what I mean by that. Yeah. To me, that doesn't sit very well. And that's probably teenage snobby punk. Kathy coming out at its essence is like, yeah, because, you know, I was that teenager saying, oh, they're sold out. But then on the other hand, I'm like, wait a minute, just because I thought this was my music, it doesn't mean that it's not zero sum if like the average Kerrang reader was also listening to it. You know what I mean?
So yeah, I think, I don't know. But then at the same time, as you say, I'm speaking from that strange perspective of where I've been on both paths. I've been on the art for art's sake path and why I love it and that we can exist outside of the music industry and yet at the same time be involved in the music industry and take slightly larger bands to the next step as well.
[00:24:50] Speaker B: I'll give you a few examples of, of stuff that's inspired me like as an example sake of it All I think is, I don't know if I'm not sure if they get the credit that they deserve for being a band that has stayed largely independent. I know that they did some like, I believe major label or at least like like subsidiary major label stuff, but they've essentially just been like an independent band for all these years. And I, I believe that they're the band, the first band that cracked the code of how to be like a legitimately big band where you live off of your band while also staying totally in their roots. I've had the chance to like see them a bunch of times. I've listened to them all these times and spent some time with the guys. I hope that they get the credit that they, they deserve. And also like, you know, shout out to Lou. Hope your health is, Hope your health is on there. But that band really kind of was the first band that cracked the code I think. And then from there there's been many other bands who'd have gone. I think it's a band like AFI where it's just like, yeah, you know, went on to like legit majors and did some like, they kind of had the experience where like they had like breakthrough release and then a really solid follow up release and then like DreamWorks went, you know, and they kind of got screwed on that next release and like, but they managed to like met like keep putting out cool records and keep themselves a viable going concern. And also it's like they never lost touch with their fan base. Like everybody loves afi. Like even, even if you don't like necessarily like the music, you respect what they've done. If you're from punk and hardcore.
[00:26:19] Speaker A: Yeah, that's, that's so true.
[00:26:21] Speaker B: Well, and then you've got like a modern example like Turnstile, which is like, I think, I think the biggest hardcore band that has ever existed ever. And yes, I think is continuing to go, but also is like, totally real and, like, you know, totally accessible, like real hardcore band. So those are just some things that I have, like, ideas that I have of bands that I think have like, managed to do it super well. And of course, there's so many bands that I think have gotten, like, kind of shit canned the way that you're talking about, where it's like they're. They're sellouts. It's like. I don't know. Like, I don't know these people. Maybe they are. Maybe they are. But I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to do your art for a living if. If you've got the goods, if you feel like you're actually good enough to do that.
[00:27:02] Speaker A: No, exactly. I think the examples you've given are absolutely perfect. Number one. Well, Sick of It All. I mean, come on. Once your fan is sick of it all, you're never lost. They. You don't ever.
You don't ever feel sort of that the music isn't for you anymore. You know what I mean? And they're such road dogs. They're amazing. There's no such thing as a bad Sick of It all live show. And, you know, it's a. It is pretty amazing because like you said, they've stayed true to themselves and then they have tored the hell out of their lives. They've just gone on the road and the live performance has spoken for itself. So I really. I'm with you. I totally hope that, you know, younger kids that do get into Sick of It all because they happen to see them at a festival in Europe somewhere. I really hope they do, you know, look back, trace the legacy. How long have they been around? Like, why do the guys in Sick of it all do what they do?
You know, because they're just the epitome of hardcore, really, and doing it all on their own terms.
So I think that was an amazing example. Turnstile. Well, when I was talking about bands that really shattered that glass ceiling, that's who I had in mind. Very. You know, such a unique situation for them. But, you know, I would love to see that happen to bands such as hi Viz, who have been on the up and up and up and up over the past few years. You know, I think they sort of come across as the kind of band that wouldn't neglect their community, they wouldn't neglect their fan base, and it would be sort of like, you know, growth depending on whether that's what they want. Of course, this is always a question is I want to be successful. What does that actually mean? It's such a subjective question.
So you know, it's up to the band, like what is it they're aiming for? How big do they want to be? And then AFI mentioned, I do remember maybe five minutes of them sort of like exploding where there was a bit of a, oh, they've sold out. And then, oh wait, the music's amazing.
[00:29:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
And also like I'd say for AFIs like stayed so like community minded. Like you know, like I've, I've been at shows where like Davey Havoc will like just jump up and like sing for some, like do a cover with some punk band. Like it's cool, like they're just, just like a real band. It does feel like there has been a, a cooling of some of those kind of like more negative, like me, this is just for us kind of attitudes because bands have, have gotten like legitimately bigger. They've been like again, sick of it all. Afi now Turnstile. I've kind of stretched the realm of what it, of what it means to be authentic while also like kind of getting at higher levels.
But on the flip side, like how have you kept.
Because I could imagine you've probably had many moments in your music career and I could be wrong here where maybe you've seen disappointing things happen as a, as a result of like business decisions. So like if that, if that's accurate for you, like how have you kept your passion for music going then.
[00:30:11] Speaker A: Bouncing back. I think especially like as I've got older, I've definitely, I mean I put effort into it in the past to sort of become more resilient.
So it's sort of like, I don't know as I'm like Now in my 40s, if something has sort of like been disappointing or I thought, oh I wish that had gone another way for that artist or you know, I don't know, I seem to not dwell on things as much and just think, well that's, that's a blip. That's what happens.
Yeah. And just sort of bouncing back. I'm not sure if that answers your question, Aram.
[00:30:50] Speaker B: No, no, it does, it does. All right, let's talk about you specifically. I know that it's wrapped up now, but I'd love to hear about this program that you've been, you've been running.
[00:30:59] Speaker A: Yes. So as I mentioned, Aram, I just finished wrapping up the Warner Music U program which was Warner Music Group's 18 to 24 year old demographic marketing program. So what that means is if we're looking at record labels and how they all the different ways that you can promote your music to different audiences. Warner Music U was basically the channel for artists to reach the 18 to 24 year old demographic, such as through college campuses in the US through college radio, through events that were held on campus, such as artist themed parties. And you know, we even had reps who would set up events where it was, let's say a gym class of some kind or a spin class and they would make it artist themed. So if you can imagine like a Charlie XCX spin class, that kind of thing. And the. Yeah, the commercial existence for Warner Music U was basically to offer the Warner Music Group labels, Atlantic, Warner Records, Elektra, to offer them the potential to reach these young people on college campuses and also in the community.
So on the other hand though, the way that I also viewed the Warner Musicu program while I was running it for the past couple of years, it's like, okay, there's 50% a commercial reason for the existence of college marketing. It benefits the labels how it benefits the artists, especially the developing artists who are trying to get to the next step and grow their audience. On the other hand, the other 50% of the importance of the program to me was the fact that we were able to identify talented young professionals who were really passionate about getting into the music business and therefore, you know, were open to being mentored and coached and basically willing to absorb everything they possibly could while working for Warner Music Group part time throughout their studies. So I always saw my role as sort of having two main purposes.
Number one, the commercial reason for the existence of the program and to help the developing artists. And then number two, the opportunity to mentor and coach the music industry's next generation of talent.
Now a part of my career that we didn't really mention actually because we were so focused on the music stuff. While I was living and working in the Netherlands, I pivoted into education. It was such an opportunity that came up in such a random way that it felt like the universe just sort of said, this is what you have to be doing right now.
So, long story short, I was teaching international business and marketing at a college in the Netherlands, still involved in music on the side. And with that experience of teaching for about seven years doing that work, I realized that, you know, I wanted to give back. And for whatever it was worth, here's everything I've learned. Maybe it's useful to somebody. So. And that was an aspect of myself that I hadn't really figured out until I sort of explored the possibility of teaching and then actually doing it. So being hired to run the Warner Music U program, of course to me was like a complete bullseye because it meant not only could I impart my couple of decades long experience across all those different types of jobs that I've had to the next gen. For what it's worth, I was also able to hang on to what I really loved about my old job in teaching, which was mentoring, coaching, listening to what that individual person's goals were and then being able to sort of bring some different perspectives to the table and also ask them some smart questions to help them figure out what they wanted do. So it's just felt like a real privilege to do that.
And as I mentioned, I've just wrapped up running the program for Warner Music Group and there is a new chapter on the horizon. And whatever I do next, I will not be letting go of what you know, I'm really paying attention to the feeling on this one. And that is the importance of helping the next generation.
[00:35:38] Speaker B: All right, so very often and for anyone listening who doesn't know, so like I work as a executive coach and I run an organization that's focused on helping leaders and their teams grow organizations, build great culture and all that kind of stuff. So basically in my day to day, I'm spending my day like coaching people or working with organizations. I can say that in that kind of work, that work of like coaching or mentoring or anything along those lines, there's all these things where I learn a lot about myself, where either I'm speaking with someone, I'm like, oh man, this is like just me five years ago or 10 years ago or 15 years ago, or oh, this person's coming up against something that I dramatically did great at and I can actually help them here, or that I totally ate it and did terrible at. And again, I've learned stuff from that. So I'm always kind of learning things about myself through working with other people and helping other people achieve things.
So based on your work as mentoring these young people, thinking about like their next steps into the music industry, what have you learned about yourself?
[00:36:45] Speaker A: Yeah, well, what I've learned about myself especially is, and I've, you know, I've worked hard on it actually is to let go of perfectionism and being hard on myself.
Those are two real crucial elements. Because if I look at say my teenage years, my 20s, my early 30s, I was just so go, go, go, go, go constantly that I didn't even reflect, I didn't look at sort of like, am I, you know, are there better ways I can handle things? Can I be a little more sophisticated in how I deal with people?
Is it always about the goal? Is it, does it matter if things go wrong?
Why am I so averse to things going wrong? Is it because I'm afraid of failure? So I've been through a lot of these sort of like reflection moments for myself over the years. And in fact, you know, this actually goes back not only during my time at Warner Music, you and leading the teams of young people, but also during the seven years of teaching directly before that, because I think all of that together. So basically the past decade, I've learned a lot about myself because young people are always a mirror, like you say. I love that you recognize that yourself as well, that you're like, oh, yeah, I've overcome this before myself.
I know sort of how this feels to fall down, get back up again.
So with being hard on myself, I think what I learned was good enough is sometimes good enough. But then it was also a real eye opener to me when after doing some reflection, I realized that if I hold myself to such a high standard, unforgivably, this is not good for people I manage because they're going to be held to an impossible standard as well. So with my role at Warner Music U, with one direct report who was previously a college rep and then 30 reps all around the US who were college students, I made sure that, especially with that close relationship with my direct reports, that I would give a lot of grace and that I could see with her being a go getter, I see myself in her like how I was back then as well.
So I've been that person, that voice. Even I don't, you know, whether she took it on board or not is none of my business. But I wanted to let her know that it was okay to make mistakes and that this is all part of the process. And don't beat yourself up about it because you know you're doing great. And the fact that you care so much is the sign that you're doing amazingly. Her results were always consistently good.
And yet there would be the moments that she would be sort of like, oh, so I again, that. That has been such an amazing feeling for me because I felt that I've been able to really not only see my own growth, which is wonderful, but able to help someone else and maybe someday they'll be, oh, yeah. I remember learning this lesson and I didn't get it at the time, but I get it now, right? It's. Yeah, I want to just sort of share any sort of ways that you can deal with these bumps along the road, really. And then another thing I would also say is now this was more of an active learning where when I was going through my teacher training, I was introduced to all these different theories of human motivation. That was a massive light bulb going off.
So there's also, you know, obviously the hierarchy of needs and from Maslow, but especially Daniel Pink and his Autonomy, Mastery and Purpose, the amp model.
That's something I've held close to my chest and also really made sure I've used and lived on a daily basis ever since learning that in the early days of teaching. So autonomy, mastery and purpose. I mean, the essence of it is that humans are motivated by, let's say they're in a job that offers them those three aspects. So autonomy, meaning don't micromanage.
Mastery, the person that you're managing, or if it's, you know, perhaps it's yourself, you know, that you can master the role that you're working in, that gives you the confidence and then the purpose, the sense of purpose. So we're at edging into Simon Sinek territory with what is, you know, discovering your why.
So I've. I've been coaching my reps as well, my team, with, with sort of that in mind to explain that. No, I'm not going to micromanage you. No, I'm not going to tell you how to market these artists. I'm simply going to say, here's the goal. How you get there is up to you. And actually, because I respect you and I respect your ideas, it's up to you. If you get stuck and you don't know how to do this, I will happily sit alongside you and coach you along. But ultimately, I want you to come up with your own creative ways of getting the job done. And I'm here to support and facilitate.
So those are, yeah, a couple of things I've really learned about my leadership style as well. Is sort of not so laissez faire or, you know, completely hands off, but at least keep being conscious of it and knowing that people are motivated if they're given the autonomy, the chance to master and have that sense of purpose as well.
[00:42:31] Speaker B: I love that you brought up the Dan Pink stuff. You know, I always find that just from a perspective of psychology very interesting and I agree with most parts of it very well, but there's like, other things I kind of like, not poke holes in, but I think it requires. It all sounds very nice. And then in practicality, it requires really diligent leadership.
[00:42:52] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:42:53] Speaker B: But let me ask you a question that is kind of a sidebar to that.
You've now been in the industry, I believe you said, over 20 years, is that correct?
[00:43:03] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:43:04] Speaker B: Were there periods where you just had to grind harder than anybody else and it required a lot of personal sacrifice?
[00:43:12] Speaker A: Yes. And it really. I struggled with it. I've been in and out of the burnout thing.
Absolutely.
And all of the emotions that come with that. So certainly with the Roadrunner job, for example, that was sort of like a massive peak in my career where I'd moved to the Netherlands. I was living in a completely different culture, different country. Loved it because, you know, I'd already built an affinity with life over there and new people in the music scene and all that, and then suddenly I get this new job that really takes me to the next level. So if we're talking football or, I mean soccer, whatever we want to call it, the one with the round ball, it was like going from first Division to Premier League versus what I. You know, how my career had gone so far.
So it was like, wow, this is a big step up. International product manager, overseeing the marketing and promotion for all of the artists that were signed and, you know, overseeing it for not just within Europe, but working with all countries around the world outside of the US And Canada.
So that was big league, big job, and it was fantastic. There were so many different hats that I wore in that role. So as a product manager in the music business, you're often sort of see overseeing the process from start to finish of, let's say, an album cycle or anything to do with that artist as international product manager. Yes, I was doing that. And then also you have the added factor of all the different countries that are involved as well, varying markets. All the markets in Europe are different to each other. Different languages, different trends, you know, different methods of consumption. Then add on to that, let's say, difference between Eastern Europe and Western Europe, Add on Asia, add on Japan, Australia, uk, Germany, France, all over the place.
So that was interesting because I was sort of like, you know, that typical workaholic. It was the time of the Blackberries. So I would wake up in the morning, my inbox was filled with messages from Japan and Australia. Then it would be UK and mainland Europe. And then US would wake up New York, then la, and then I wouldn't be sleeping because, oh, I started getting messages from Japan already. So it was really an interesting lesson to learn to figure out, okay, how do I work effectively knowing that I've got this BlackBerry, which back then it wasn't even a smartphone, it was basically an email machine. And it's sort of like you could happily not, not sleep at all and just be kept busy. So that was a really good lesson for me to learn was, oh, how do I manage? How do I actually cope with such a high volume of tasks, loads of different plates spinning, working with so many different artists that were at different stages of their career, different release cycles, touring in all different time zones, all that kind of thing, and then add ons to that. Not just the artist facing stuff, but strategically helping the company with the decisions that were being made on the ground at the distributors or the other, in the other offices where Roadrunner had staff. So there was a lot going on. I hold it so dearly because it really felt like that job was the making of me because I, you know, I kind of didn't know how to deal with a lot of it in the end. Well, no, by the end I did. And then the stress factor, though, so there was all that, which is all well and good, but the massive stress factor was knowing that I took the job, knowing that the owner of Roadrunner was going to be selling it at some point to the highest bidder. So when I started working Roadrunner International, that was the headquarters for the label. It's Dutch by origin, so I was there. And the Warner Music group actually owned 74% of the label already.
So I knew from the outset, and I loved the fact that my boss at the time was really transparent about this. I knew that the lifespan of that role for me would have been three to five years. I was there for about five years in the end, because the part of my remit as well was to make sure that Roadrunner was a real going concern for the highest bidder, that we could prove that Roadrunner could anr so source artists and develop them and break them. So we needed to make sure we had that kind of evidence and that, you know, we could get the same or more sales with less marketing spend. So I really had to wear some careful hats there because I had to be that person. Although, you know, at the beginning of this conversation I mentioned I hadn't. I didn't have to really cut corners with anything to do with the artists, thank goodness. But then when you're going out and looking at how things are marketed on the other end, I had to be that person going to the distributor and saying, sorry, nope, you got to slash Your promo budget here. We've got to pull this one back.
What else can you do where you'll still get the same amount of sales? So having all that to learn in a relatively short amount of time and then knowing that I was also working to the demise of my job, because success would have looked like the company being sold to Warner, probably, or even maybe Universal or, you know, so, hooray, we did it. We got the company sold. Clearly it worked. But then, you know what's going to happen with these mergers and acquisitions? Nine times out of 10, the offices will all be shuttered and everything would get absorbed into the existing infrastructure. In this case, at Warner, who bought the label. So, yeah, it was the making of Mia Ram. It really was. Because there was just so much going on and then learning about how the corporate side of things worked as well, but then having to be objective about it being like, well, I know I'm working to be out of a job in this one.
[00:49:42] Speaker B: Yeah, I love what you said there. And, you know, the reason I'm pushing on this a little bit, I think the AMP philosophy is great. Like, it's not a. It's not a concern, or I think it's totally practical. When leaders find, like, what are the ways that you motivate teams and individuals to grow and do better at the job? Jobs where I. Where I always want to push. When people bring that up in the podcast, so not just you, anyone on the podcast is typically. I find that people latch. Can latch on onto ideas or can explain things with ideas like amp and then the audience might not hear that there's actually like a total diligence of leadership that follows with those things. And really specifically, like, when I. The reason I asked about the idea of, or asked about, like, you've had to really, like, grind in your career. One of the things that I wouldn't say I have a concern about, I think it's just the Internet. Interneting is like, you know, probably 2018 and on there's been all this, like, work should not work, should only be this, like, creative, wonderful experience for you where your deepest creativity is unleashed. And da, da, it's like, well, yeah, I mean, sure, that's great, but it sounds like you're talking about the perfect job and very, very few people are going to work in a perfect job. And it doesn't mean you shouldn't aspire to that.
To get to that usually requires a huge amount of sacrifice and really hard work of working crappy jobs or working jobs where you have a great Boss, but maybe you get paid like crap, or jobs where you get paid great, but you have a terrible boss or you're doing something that you don't particularly like. Focusing on, like, you're. What you focusing on isn't of interest to you, but you really want to be a part of the industry. Or like, maybe the team you're on sucks, but, like, you like what you're doing and like, all of these different combinations. I.
I find it that, like, the kind of, like, almost like online career conversation seems to be like, every human being should find themselves in, like, deep, deeply meaningful job that they love, that they get paid well, that your boss is amazing, your team is incredible. And it's like, just. Frankly, that's just not reality. And I. I have. I think. I think it's very appealing to. To talk about that stuff online, but in reality, I don't think most people are experiencing that. So if I think about, like, the amp model, it's like, you know, I. I don't want anyone to get micromanaged. But I will say, as like a business owner, there are times where you certainly have to micromanage people, where you actually have to get in and be, like, really focused on what's going on and help them get to that next space. So I want people to have the freedom to do it whatever they want up until the point where they can't do it, and then you gotta help. Then there are times where you have to help them. And some people might not have that philosophy, but I think practically, like, the idea of micromanaging, like, no one will ever be micromanaged ever. And that's. The future of work is, like, totally unrealistic.
[00:52:39] Speaker A: No, no, it's. It's. It's unrealistic. And I mean, I fully agree around it's. With the. The amp approach, should we say you have to have the structure as well, the. You know, so it is a bit of a grind because at the end of the day, you're still holding yourself accountable to make sure that the results are there.
But I think that's part of it.
[00:53:00] Speaker B: Yeah. And like, I'll say, like, the greatest amount of freedom that I've ever had professionally is when I went through, like, the most difficult period of my career. So when I was working as a. As a therapist, I didn't realize how good I had it. Like, I worked at a. At a, like, social services, so, like, I had to see four clients a day. That was our. Like, you had minimum. You saw as four clients. So each client you'd see for an hour and then you had an hour of follow up work on each client and that would be like clinical planning session notes and then research. So basically I had four hours a day of just reading and writing and then four hours a day of doing like therapeutic practice and like, and I thought back then and of course like my pay was like connected to that. Whereas like I really was, was not with the social services, you're not making a ton of money. When I went into the corporate world and I started working for this consulting firm, I was like, it was like getting like punched in the face. Like I could not believe how hard everyone worked. And not only how hard everyone worked, how toxic the culture was where I was working. It was like everyone here is like a maniac. They're all like throwing each other under the bus and like stealing sales from each other and that like it it and like my boss is breathing down my neck, he's like texting me on Sunday and like if I don't respond I'm going to get threatened to get fired. It was crazy. But that work experience, I worked at this company for about five and a half years. It actually made me such a better professional because not only did I have to figure out how to like up my performance and it was terrible. And I don't want to sell, sell the idea to anyone that like you can only get good by having bad experiences because there's a lot of ways to get good. But like I worked for this company for five and a half years and it was seriously like the most intense experience. It was so toxic, it was so negative. But by the end of it it set me up to start my own company where I now have the most amount of freedom. I would never ever, ever emulate the work culture they had there. Absolutely not. Like our company runs in like a 180 version of that. But I also say in my desire to be so 180 to that I've actually had lots of gaps in performance that I never addressed. Like a lot of, a lot of stuff I let slide a lot of opportunities let go because I was trying too hard to go the other way. And I think it's like to really create a great work experience for people and to be a really good leader, I think you gotta like really understand the value of the grind and like working hard and having a certain amount of pressure and a certain amount of expectation and that's that like nuance of using a model like amp or any of these things, recognizing that it's like, no, you actually have to like really be on it and then help people thrive within that structure.
[00:55:33] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. I love what you're saying there.
And it's also the balance as well. The fact that I've, I, you know, I've been in all these, all in various situations with different types of management.
Right.
The fact that I've had quite a few different jobs and been in different scenarios, some more toxic than others, has certainly informed like, okay, what do I want my leadership style to be?
You know, where did I feel really motivated, supported? Where did I want to really bring the absolute best version of me to the table? And in a way, I've used my own experiences there, just sort of being on the receiving end of different types of management styles to figure out what I think is right with my team. And then with my most recent role running the Warner Music yout program, thankfully I was, you know, I was basically given the keys to run my own shop. So I was able to create that culture that I wanted and also sort of make sure that my team were, you know, functioning, performing, but then not necessarily being affected by too much stress, which, you know, and I was very cognizant of the age group too, or the stage of the career that these young people were at because most of them were still students.
So, you know, it's. If I'm managing someone who's sort of like past entry level stage, I'm going to take a slightly different approach to the more sandbox environment that I was creating for my team where, you know, it really was like, failure is great because I know you're trying and effort is the important thing, but make sure you've got something to really show for it in the end, you know. So I think it's. It depends what your team looks like, how your team is formed, and also the extent that you have like, how much leeway do you have to actually set the tone and create an environment?
So, yeah, it's all super interesting, but I think at all times it's a balance and the best approach is to tailor it as much as possible to the team that you have in front of you that you're leading.
[00:57:56] Speaker B: I love what you just said about the sandbox approach. If people are really new kind of fresh professionals versus people who have, like, had a bit more experience and like that shift of it's like, oh, it's okay to fail versus it's okay to fail. But like, what did you. What's the return on that investment? You know, like Something I hear a lot. Again, it's a bit of an online conversation and I don't want to sound like I'm like, pooh, poohing. People being like, oh, you should expect more out of your employer. Yeah, Like, I don't think anyone should have a shitty employer. But also, frankly, like, most people are going to have experience in that at least at some point in their career. Most people have it either. It's like you're working, I don't know, like a convenience store, like, early career, or you're working, like, high corporate world, or in the social services. Most people have some kind of bad experience and it could be like, like small be bad, or it could be like huge bad.
But there is something to get out of most of those. Not all, but most of those situations. But that idea of, like, when people talk a lot of it, it's like, oh, you know, I always say it's like, it's okay to fail. It's like, well, yeah, it's okay to fail, but it depends what we're talking about. Like, you've got to anticipate. You got to anticipate. People are going to like, it's not okay to fail to show up to work. I need you to show up to work. But like, failure, of course, is like a part of any business. But if someone fails and they fail about something dramatic and it's serious and it was like, totally avoidable, that's different than if someone fails on something that was serious and it matters, but it was, like, unavoidable. Like, those are two totally different things. And also it's like, what did you learn? What's the return on investment? Like, what can we apply to the next thing? Failure is like, it's part of life. Like, I mean, of all things. And I just, I really encourage, not just on the podcast in general, people to kind of. I really would love to see more, like, reality coming back into the conversation about work, where it's like, yeah, work is actually really, really, really hard. And building a career is really, really hard. And all the stuff that you did in your career, like, I hear how hard you've worked on it and it's part of your story. And even if it's something you're super passionate about, it's hard. It's like super hard. It's supposed to be.
[01:00:10] Speaker A: Yeah, no, fully agree.
I was just say one more thing about failure as well. Let's say if one of my team members came to me, something hadn't worked out, there would always be a Question of, okay, you know, we discuss it, we dissect it, and then I'd say, what do you think you'll do differently next time? And then if it happens again, then, you know, you're going to have a different conversation. And this is also like, you know, from my teaching days as well. It's like, it's okay to make the mistake, but please learn from it and adjust accordingly.
[01:00:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
And again, it's like, as you're saying that, it's like you and I are like, well, yeah, of course. But at the same time, it's like, no, like, really, like, what did you learn? Yeah, like, what did you learn? How you going to apply it next time?
The conversation about work. For me, it's like, you know, and I know for you as well, it's like it's something you're in all the time. And I just really feel it's like it benefits anyone who's running a business or is a leader or is, like, mentoring people to be like, as practical. Practical as we can about. Like, work is supposed to be hard. It's supposed to be. Not from a mean perspective, because anything that's worth doing, like anything that you're. Anything great that you're trying to do is going to require a lot of hard work and sacrifice and learning and sometimes taking it on the chin, all of those things. And it's worth it in the end, even if that. Even if you, like, kind of fall flat in your face, it's worth it.
[01:01:44] Speaker A: Yes, I fully agree. And in fact, sometimes when you do fall flat on your face again, that's like, probably the best thing that happened that week because you've got something else to chew over to grow from. So, you know, you got to kind of reframe these things as well.
[01:01:58] Speaker B: One step.
[01:02:02] Speaker A: One.
[01:02:07] Speaker B: What's that?
[01:02:08] Speaker A: Beyond.
