Stephen Kimball, Sober Dad Crew

[00:00:00] Speaker A: You know, I think I was sitting on the couch with my wife. She's a social worker and a therapist and also sober. And we were talking about stuff. And I said, you know, I had this idea because you do see a lot of sort of mom sobriety stuff out there, and there's just not a lot out there for guys. I just wasn't really seeing it. And I thought, well, like, I'm going to sort of give this a go. And I was on the board of an organization that did rehab and detox related work, and I sort of had this idea and I met this other guy at an event called Recovery Rocks that we both spoke at it, and he was a dad, too. And we got talking and I said, hey, I got like, I want. I want to start this podcast. Will you be my first guest? I really didn't know what I was doing. Like, all right, I've got a Mac. I've got GarageBand. I bought a mic and headphones, and I did it over zoom, which was fine and kind of, you know, came up with these questions that have kind of morphed over time. But that was kind of the launch of it. [00:01:13] Speaker B: That was a clip from today's guest. Everyone, welcome back to the show. Today is a fun one. I always like it when I get to do a podcast and be on someone else's show and then they come and. And then be on our show. So this will be our second. Actually, it'll be our third conversation because we had to have a redo of his podcast. This is going to be a fun one. I always love when there's something more than just, like, strictly business to talk about, when there's, like, big life changes, kind of like figuring out who you are as an adult and being the best version of yourself. And this conversation is going to have all of that before we get to it. Please subscribe to the program and let's get to the show. Hey, man, welcome. [00:02:09] Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you. Happy to be here. [00:02:12] Speaker B: All right, for the uninitiated, for those who don't know, who are you and what do you do? [00:02:17] Speaker A: You know, I listen to your show. So I've been thinking about this for a while, and I think. And it made me think about some new things. So first, I think I'm a dad. I think that's the filter through most of what I do and the decisions I make. And the second part of that, I'm a sober dad. I'm a husband. And I think the new thing I've been thinking about again is I'm a son. And that's because, you know, what we talked about when you were on is my mom has dementia and is in long term care. So that whole factor at, you know, 53 years old, right. I'm still somebody's kid and I still have those responsibilities. [00:03:05] Speaker B: Well, let's start from the top. How many kids do you have? [00:03:09] Speaker A: I've got four kids. So technically the two older ones are my biological kids and the two younger ones are my stepkids. But really the way we roll is they're all my kids and they're all each other's siblings. We really like worked at that and embraced that as a thing. [00:03:28] Speaker B: How old were you when you became a dad? [00:03:32] Speaker A: So the oldest is 21. So what am I? 53. So 32. Did I just do the math right? [00:03:39] Speaker B: I think so. [00:03:42] Speaker A: I don't want to embarrass myself. [00:03:44] Speaker B: Were you sober at the time? [00:03:46] Speaker A: I was not sober at the time I got sober when he was, let's see, his sister was probably 4, so he was 8. [00:03:56] Speaker B: So what led to you getting sober? [00:03:59] Speaker A: You know, it's funny and people laugh at this. Like, I've never smoked potential, I've never done any other drug. And the alcohol for me was this sort of slippery medicinal slope. You know, it was like, oh, like go out and have a beer, have a glass of wine with dinner. But you know, as stresses of life and that first marriage with their mom was really on the rocks, one glass became two became three, and it really became this kind of crutch. And then I just had a moment one night where I was like, I gotta be done with this. This is going nowhere good. And it's gonna start going nowhere good fast. So that'll be in February, it'll be 15 years. [00:04:42] Speaker B: Did you go cold turkey? Did you start, stop again and then did you do like kind of a 12 step thing or did you go through a therapy or did you just kind of like raw dog it? [00:04:54] Speaker A: You know, I, I stopped and I had been in therapy at the time and had been on an antidepressant. Which also side note, for folks, if you're drinking on an antidepressant, the antidepressants not actually going to work for you, which I actually didn't know at that time. And interestingly, and I love this therapist, like it's the thing that people don't always say to you, like doctors and all that. But I just, one night I say, I had this vision that my grandmother sort of like tapped me on the shoulder and was like, you got to do something different. And I just did. And I never looked back. [00:05:29] Speaker B: Like you had a vision that. Was it a dream at night or were you just sitting around and you just like. [00:05:33] Speaker A: I was like at the dining room table and it was, you know, I don't know, it's like really, like kind of mystical, spiritual for. For me, but it was. I don't know if it's, you know, this notion of, I think love kind of has echoes in the universe is like very cosmic for me. But I think it was like that it was maybe memory. I don't know how you describe it, but it was very clearly like my grandmother being like, you gotta make a different decision. [00:05:59] Speaker B: Were you close with your grandmother? [00:06:02] Speaker A: Super close, yeah. [00:06:04] Speaker B: And when did she pass? [00:06:05] Speaker A: And she had passed. [00:06:07] Speaker B: Who? [00:06:07] Speaker A: When was that? It was not. Maybe. Maybe a year before that. And, you know, they were in Tacoma, Washington, or near Tacoma, Washington. My grandparents and I had gone to school in Oregon, so I saw them a lot, and I saw them a lot as sort of a young adult. And that's really when that relationship kind of went beyond just, oh, you're my grandparents, but into the sort of deeper, you know, we would share poetry books and we. She taught me to cook and things like that. [00:06:42] Speaker B: So you got this like kind of message from beyond. You gotta. You gotta change. And so like that, or did it. [00:06:48] Speaker A: Take you a while, does it, that I stopped? I mean, I think the key to stopping was also that I was in therapy and dug into that and was working on the other things. So that decision to quit drinking just allowed the other therapy and the antidepressant to actually do what they needed to do. But I had a therapist that would call me on my shit, which is good because I needed it, you know, I didn't need to just always talk about my feelings, but I needed to get pushed. [00:07:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:19] Speaker A: So, you know, that was. I did that for a number of years after that. [00:07:24] Speaker B: Yeah. How many years did you do therapy? Start to finish. [00:07:28] Speaker A: Oh, boy. You know, and there was some sort of marital therapy, couples therapy in that mix in that time too. So it was probably four years. And then I kind of tapered a little bit, you know, went from every week to every other week to every month and then an occasional check in. And then I was like, okay, I think I like got this. [00:07:54] Speaker B: And then. Did you do any 12 step stuff or was it just therapy? [00:07:59] Speaker A: You know, I didn't do 12 step stuff and I, you know, my wife does 12 step. And now I'm like, oh, maybe I should have done that, but I guess I still could, but that wasn't my. My path. I guess I didn't always, like, necessarily to say, oh, I'm an alcoholic. I mean, I definitely. The term we have now maybe is substance use disorder, which is maybe just a kinder way of saying alcoholic. But I didn't necessarily identify that way. I just knew it was a problem. [00:08:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:30] Speaker A: Like, it wasn't. I. You know, I never experienced physical cravings, but it was definitely sort of mental, emotional cravings for the level of relief from stress and the weight of things. [00:08:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Can I give you an example that I see a lot of people deal with in regards to alcohol or pot or whatever it is? [00:08:55] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. [00:08:56] Speaker B: Are you familiar with the concept of emotional labor? [00:09:00] Speaker A: Yes. [00:09:01] Speaker B: Okay. Do you mind if I get into it a little bit? [00:09:04] Speaker A: No, go for it. [00:09:05] Speaker B: So, like, I know there's kind of this, like, kooky, modern version of it. Like, there's this, like, weird article a few years ago that someone was like, the definition of emotional labor has changed, and you need to deal with it. And I was like, I don't. I don't know if I need to deal with it. Like, I don't think I need to deal with it at all. That's not what it is. So, like, emotional labor is just the amount of effort it takes for us to deal to our emotional reaction to provocative situations. So if, like, something totally funny happens in front of you and you want to laugh, but you know it's totally inappropriate to laugh, emotional labor is just pushing down that reaction because people usually associate it with, like, negative things. But it's like, if I see something totally hilarious that happens and I know I can't laugh, it's totally inappropriate to laugh. I'm pushing down that response. Or if something mildly irritating happens and I, you know, like, want to react to it, I just push it down. If someone is doing something and I want to, like, talk trash about it to my friend, but I know it's totally inappropriate, I push it down. And if something terrible happens, if someone gets aggressive towards me on the street, or if someone is, like, cuts me off in traffic or whatever, I get. I have an emotional reaction, I push it down. So emotional labor is just managing the emotional response to something that's provocative. Where that thing is elicits, like, kind of a funny reaction or a negative reaction. We have emotional labor constantly, all day, every day. It's a totally, totally normal thing. Thing. When people live with, like, a higher amount of emotional labor, either because they live in, like, Highly stressful environments, or like, very often people from like marginalized communities experience like a higher level of emotional labor day throughout the day. But it could be that or you live, you. You have in a situation where you have a lot of emotional labor, or you're just wired differently. You're kind of like a person who runs a little hot emotionally and so that you get. Your emotions get provoked more easily. Whatever it is, it's that any human being can only manage a certain amount of emotional labor every single day before they start becoming dysregulated. And think of it this way, it's like holding a dumbbell out in front of you. And maybe you can manage a ton of emotional labor in a day. So let's say you could manage £20 in a day, and maybe I could manage £10 in a day. And everyone just has some amount of natural ability to manage emotional labor. And you can scale that up over time too, through like exposure therapy and like working on stuff and just normal life experiences should, should help with that. But if I have like a bad day, like I have, let's say like an 8 pound day and I can only carry 10, my arm by the end of the day is getting a little tired and my arm starts coming down a little bit. I can still hold it up, but it's coming down a little bit. So I start getting a little dysregulated or deregulated. You because you can carry £20 at £8 just like no problem. I find that people in people very often use alcohol to manage to take off the edge of that amount of emotional labor. And the more that you use, the less able you are to carry larger amounts. So someone who can naturally carry like, let's say £20 straight out, if they're using alcohol to medicate themselves and dull their things over time, that atrophies your ability. So it maybe you go down to 15 or 10 or 8 pounds. And the whole goal is, or the whole idea is that we are managing our reaction to things that are provocative. And if you just get better at managing the weight and taking care of yourself through like this whole, you know, like the basic tenets of how someone takes care of themselves, you should be able to like, not only manage normal life stresses, but actually like, really train yourself for like, the heavier stuff that inevitably comes for everyone. And I think like therapy or 12 step or any of those things helps deal with kind of like the historical things that might limit our ability to manage emotional labor, but also can like, help build resilience for things that happen later on. And all you gotta do is, like, pull alcohol or drugs out of that so you can do that real work. [00:13:09] Speaker A: Yeah, there was. And I just told my wife this story the other night. There was a moment in that time and I was presenting at a public meeting and got pushed a little bit by an elected official. And I didn't totally blow up, but I lost my cool a little bit. And, you know, that could have been job ending. You know, it was a. It was a bad moment. And fortunately, I worked for a good person. And fortunately, I immediately apologized and, you know, worked through all that. But that could have been real bad. And that was another moment. And it is. It's exactly what you said. Like, I lost, you know, I went from £10 to £8 or whatever it was. And the other thing I learned over time is work would take. I would carry that weight all day at work, and I would have less capacity at home to, like, carry the weight of any stress. So that made me not as good of a parent, not as good of a partner. So, yeah, I think that's 100%, like, a real thing. [00:14:21] Speaker B: Well, let's. Let's go into that. Like, so after you make this decision, you have this kind of, like, lightning bolt moment. Like, hey, you know, I gotta. I gotta choose a different path. You're already in therapy. What changed for you after you got sober? And I don't mean after you've been sober for a week, but let's say you've been sober for, like, a good clip, Maybe, like three months. How did that impact your parenting style? How did that impact your ability to, like, be a partner or make good choices in your personal life? [00:14:47] Speaker A: I think there was this. I remember I was, like, walking one day and I had this realization that, oh, like, depression and then, like, the alcohol, they'll never let you down. I mean, sort of they will, but they won't. Like, depression, anxiety will always be there for you if you let it. Right. It's, like, totally reliable. It's like, yeah, everyone's against you. Yeah, everyone's fucking against you. Yeah. And that's the anxiety and the depression, like, just jumping on your shoulder. And that went away with the combination of, I think, you know, therapy and stopping drinking and dealing with the underlying depression and anxiety. Like, that went away, and that made everything kind of smoother. I think it took, you know, more time. I became a somewhat excessive exerciser over a period of time, you know, and kind of like, messed up a knee. So now I'm a. I'M a walker and I don't do any metrics or anything. Like, I just, I don't do it. I like, get my exercise. I go outside or whatever, but I don't track it because I tracking it to me became this sort of obsessive thing. Like, I gotta go this many miles. I gotta like do this much weight. I'm like, I'm old, you know, like, nobody cares how much I can bench press. Like, they really don't. And nobody really cares how far I ran in a year. It just became this weird ego thing, you know? So I don't. I don't know if that totally answered your question or not, but. [00:16:23] Speaker B: Well, I want to hit on the relationship side of it, but I'll speak to that. Like, dude, as you're thinking that, I'm like, oh, are we the same person? Like, I did the exact, exact same thing where it really, like. So I. I got sober when I was, I guess, I guess I'd say 21. It's like 21, 22. Ish. I don't remember the exact, exact date. And I had really been struggling with alcohol for a number of years. But it gotten like progressively worse. And of course it brought in all the stuff, anxiety, depression. And of course the more that I try to, the more that I medicated that with alcohol, the way worth it got so much worse. So much worse. And, you know, I. One day I just was like, I'm not drinking anymore. And a friend of mine at the time started laughing and is like, there's no way. You're not going to drink, any of you out of anyone. There's no way. I was like, nope, I'm not going to drink anymore. And I never did. And part of it was, I think like a little bit of that punk. Like, yeah, you tell me I can't, I'll do it. But part of it was like, oh, yeah? Well, part of it was like, I know where this leads. But that then translated into a type of behavior that has had huge benefits for me, but also bad repercussions. So for anyone who's listening, who's maybe slightly aware of addictive patterns or doesn't know anything at all, or maybe knows a lot even, is that if you don't do work around your substance use or misuse, uh, that energy, like the reason that got you doing it, it just finds another way to express itself. So for me, it became like hyper work. Like I became like a crazy work person. And for me, at first, initially it was hardcore and like really focusing on doing my band stuff. And I would just, like, dedicate crazy hours to doing this and, like, go to all sorts of levels to like, make sure that, like, you know, I was putting my best foot forward with, like, really trying to focus on, like, writing good songs. Like, all of that kind of stuff. Became super focused on it. And then it went into my career and I was like, hyper focused on my career and then my record label, and then like, da da da. And I became a chronic doer of things. So I was like. I'd be doing like five bands at a time. I'd be working a very high level in my career. I'd be taking courses on the side. I would be like. I'd have like a record label, like all of this stuff. And people would always say to me, like, God, I don't know how you manage all this stuff. And the thing is, I didn't. Because the thing that I couldn't do is be a good partner. I couldn't be a good friend. You know, I had way too many relationships. So it was very hard for me to focus on being a good friend to a small amount of people because I was managing relationships with like a hundred people. And I hit a point where I was like, huh? Why? Why, like, you know, why am I not, you know, happy with my partner? Why do I keep finding myself in these relationships that are, like, really like, unhappy relationships? And why do I feel, like, alone all the time, even though I have all these people in my lives? And why that Maybe things are looking good in my bank account, but why do I feel like there's this empty hole in me that I'm constantly trying to fill with buying things or going on this tour or putting out this record. And it was this thing that helped a lot that I was able to really do a lot of cool stuff with my life from a very early age to my middle age. But also what it reaped was just deep levels of unhappiness, like, super, super unhappy. So although I'd been sober for a long time, I was in a job. So this after I'd stopped being a therapist, I was at a job where I was making the most money I'd ever made. I was living in a great city, Vancouver, and I could live live comfortably. And I toured the world with my bands. I put out all this records, like, done all this stuff, but I was, like, miserable. And I mean miserable. And I was like a shadow of who I used to be. Like, my last job before I started this company, I was there And I was so, so not who I am as a human being. And I just gotten there because I had all these unaddressed behaviors that were tied to what got me, caused me to engage with alcohol, like with alcohol in the first place. And it's because I didn't do the work to take care of myself. [00:20:31] Speaker A: Yeah, and I get that. Like I, you know, I dated like crazy for a while and just you kind of make other bad decisions I think early on. And that's where either 12 step, as you said, or therapy to kind of you people need people in their life who will call them on their shit. Like I fundamentally believe that. And it can't always be your, your spouse or your partner. I think it has to be a friend or someone else who's, or maybe a sibling depending on your relationship to be like, what the hell? Like, you know, this isn't who you are and this isn't who you want to be. So like what are you going to do? [00:21:13] Speaker B: Totally. So let's go back to what I wanted to hit at. What changed in your relationships? So like how did you become like a different kind of dad or how did you become a different kind of partner after you got sober? And again, I mean, after you've been sober for a while, what changed for you? [00:21:27] Speaker A: I mean, I think a big, big, big one. And this is something I always like I still actively work on is patience. You know, as a parent, that's key. As a partner, that's key. Like I can, I can find myself being impatient as a person. So that is something that's like a constant vigilance thing for me. But I became more patient and I think that's both as a partner and as a parent. Good. I became less woe is me. Right. It wasn't always about, oh, all these things are against me. All this is like bad. I definitely figured out the grass isn't always greener. I mean I had this moment like I'm divorced. I'm. I'm in a place that I moved to for that partner. My folks are in Maine, I'm in New York, my brother's in California. And like I want to get out. Like this isn't where I want to be. And I in the moment was no, I want to be wherever my kids are. And that's the fundamental decision and that's the fundamental way. Like I co parented with their mom too. Was kids kids first. But I think I had more ability like as a single parent but also act really actively engaged co parents like 50, 50 we would meet and have coffee all the time, make sure, like, what's going on? Like, how can we really do this? Well, like, it allowed me to let go of past hurts and past anger and just be like, that's kind of like the past is the past. I need to figure out with this person, their mom, how to parent well with them. Because not doing it well is, at best, not fair to the kids, but realistically damaging. [00:23:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:20] Speaker A: So I think. And then I also read this book by Brene Brown. I guess it was an audio book, the Gift of Imperfect Parenting, which really helped me because it allowed me to be like, all right. And I always thought about this Flaming Lip song, waiting for Superman. And I was like, all right. I'm just trying to be the perfect, like the superhero. Like, nothing goes wrong and you just can't be like, you're gonna make mistakes. So, like, allowing myself the freedom of some layers of imperfection really helped me. It's hard to do right if you're like an achieving person. To, like, accept some levels of imperfection is not always easy. [00:24:02] Speaker B: Totally, man. For me, like, when I, you know, a number of years ago when I was like, all right, like, I don't want to be so miserable all the time, I got sick and tired of being sick and tired. So they say. I, you know, I went and did like, a real. I'd done, like, moments of therapy, like, gone to therapy here and there. And, you know, that's kind of an interesting thing. Also, like, I will touch on later is, like, how to. How to find a good therapist. Because, like, the first therapist I work with, I can say inarguably, being a therapist myself, but also having to work with a good therapist. The first therapist I worked with was garbage. Terrible. And how do you know. And like, how do you. How do you. It's just like a mean, like, out of a mean person. Like, it was really, really bad. And it really did a trip on my. On my head. [00:24:49] Speaker A: It's like a Saturday Night Live skit. Like, mean therapist. [00:24:52] Speaker B: It was so, like, in the moment. I was like, I guess. Like, I guess this is it. And I just picked this person because they were in my insurance network and it was like. And was down the street from me. Terrible. We'll talk about that later. But I did some 12 step stuff for a while and I just couldn't. I think. I think very highly of 12 steps of 12 step stuff, but I couldn't. I just couldn't get real with it. And I couldn't get real with it. For a whole bunch of reasons, but that are all, all on me. But when I eventually like really like went and did real work with a therapist, things I've been able to like really work on and I still got to work on it. The first is like being present. I'm like a classic. It's very hard for me just to be in the moment if there's downtime. And I'm super lucky because I have like, I love my wife, she's the coolest. We spend all our time together, we work together, we travel frequently together. So whenever I go for work, she comes with me because she does part of our stuff whenever I'm doing like coaching or courses. So it's all connected. But if we're like on like let's say vacation, there is usually like a two or three day window where it takes me to, to basically calm down from life. And it takes me a long time to get there and like my mind starts fabricating all these like crazy like the company's going to like go bankrupt or like this terrible thing is going to happen or this. And it's just my psychology not wanting to be in the moment but be like constantly somewhere else. So I really, I still work on that. It's gotten a lot, a lot, a lot better. But it takes me a while every single time. We were on vacation this summer and my wife's like, where are you right now? I'm like, I'm like five years in the future, the company's gone bankrupt, we've lost our home, like total like some kind of crazy like nightmare scenario. So that's one is being in the moment. And as corny as that sounds, that like be here now, it's like really just being in the moment and being with whoever I'm with has been a real challenge. And the second one is like knowing the difference between like advocating and like doing the right thing. Advocating for yourself and making the right things happen for yourself versus making up excuses to be like totally selfish. And I really look back at my life because I've always been a doer, I've done, I'm just constantly doing stuff, knowing the difference of when I've architected something just kind of like make me feel good and like kind of like boost me and like put the make things about me versus when I'm doing something because I actually like genuinely should be doing that and it's a good thing to do and I have to advocate for myself and kind of push for myself and learning how to really understand how like Ridiculous my how ridiculous I can be about like giving myself good reasons to push my own interests in certain situations versus just doing what's doing the right thing for the right reasons. And I've gotten much, much better at kind of calling myself out about understanding when I want to do something just cause it benefits me. And it's like kind of like works for my, for my agenda versus like doing the right thing. And sometimes those things like the right thing and what I want to have happen, sometimes they meet. But there's other times you have to like really hold yourself accountable. Those are two things I've really, really, really worked on and I've made like good headway. But also it's like you backslide a little bit too, right? [00:28:18] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think you can forgive yourself the backslide, but it is the constant vigilance. Like if you've worked hard to get the wisdom on what your things are, it's like trying to keep yourself in check and just, you know, whatever it is, count to 10 in your head or meditate or how, however you're going to sort of self assess. But know those things that you, you know, generally work on and like assess yourself from time to time to make sure you know that your motive, your motives are true. [00:28:55] Speaker B: Yeah. But herein lies a challenge. So when people talk about like, hey, here's how I want to be and this is how I'm going to assess myself, I find people kind of like set these very vague goals from themselves or I just want to be authentic. I just want to be true to myself and like, I don't know, like speak my truth or whatever, like corny thing you want to put in there. And these are like, they're more like aspirational, mean nothing things that are very hard to measure. It's like how often did I speak my truth like this week or whatever. And then also is like, is speaking my truth like. Or do you mean just be like a crazy person who makes everything about themselves and just says whatever they want all the time. Like sometimes I work with leaders where they're like, I just want to be authentic. And I was like, well what I think you want to do is just act however you want to act and you're calling it authentic. That to you is being authentic is just doing whatever I want. And at least I had one person be like, yeah, that's actually exactly what I mean, like good on them. But the way that I always like kind of think about and I don't just mean self improvement, I also mean like let's say in your work life or anything. It's like, be practical. Like, everything has to be practical and like, data driven. So whenever I think about stuff like this, I always think about, like, behaviors that I want to increase versus behaviors I want to decrease. And we get rid of the idea of perfectionism. Like, I'm going to be like that all the time. But we also get rid of the idea of things going extinct. When we have behaviors that we have, it's very rare that those behaviors are just going to go away forever. And I just encourage people to be like real specific about, um, what is, what is the behavior or the behaviors you want to either increase or decrease. And if it's a behavior you want to decrease, you want to be measuring it on frequency, duration, and impact. So how often is something happening? And people should literally track it. How often is this behavior happening? But when it happens, how long is it lasting? Is it like five minutes? Is it like an hour? Is it two hours? And then also, what's the impact? So if you know what behavior or behaviors you want to decrease, rate it on frequency, duration, and impact with the goal that it's going down. And it's very likely the behavior or set of behaviors is never going to go away completely. But the less it happens and the shorter time it happens, the impact will be less and less and less. Da da, da, da da. But you'll probably have some core of it. Behaviors that you want to go up again, you just measure by frequency, duration and impact. But around behavior specifically, like behaviors all have, like, skills and abilities that are underpinning them. So like, let's say, like, you know, people would be like, I want to be like, I just really want to inspire people. I'm like, okay, like, what does that even mean? Right? But like, I'd be like, give me the behavior. Like, what is the exact behavior? So someone will say, whatever the behavior is, there's usually like practical skills and abilities. So a skill is something that you learn, and ability is something you naturally have. And like, you kind of hone, you develop up. I encourage people to, like, identify what behaviors you either want to increase or decrease. But then what are the skills that you skills and abilities you need to have, or what are the skills and abilities that you're missing and work on those. And that way you can be like real practical behaviors up, behaviors down. Skills and abilities that I either need to acquire or develop or that I'm missing that I have to, like, bring into the mix. The more specific people are about, like, that self work, I think the more practical can be rather than these kind of like vague things. Like as an example, smoking. It's like, I want to quit smoking. Well, yeah, you can measure that. How many cigarettes did you have? Like that that tells you. But like, I want to be less of a jerk is like vague, because what does that mean and in what situation? So being very specific about it. [00:32:38] Speaker A: Yeah. And doing. I mean, I remember a friend, and for 15 years, she probably said, I want to be a writer. I want to be a writer. And I. What did you write today? Didn't write anything. Yeah, you know, I guess you don't fail if you don't try, but also go for it. Right. Don't say you want to do something and then not underpin it with anything. [00:32:58] Speaker B: 100%, man. Okay, so tell us about the podcast. Like, how did that come about? [00:33:06] Speaker A: It came about, you know, I think I was sitting on the couch with my wife. She's a social worker and a therapist and also sober. And we were talking about stuff. And I said, you know, I had this idea because you do see a lot of sort of mom sobriety stuff out there, and there's just not a lot out there for guys. I just wasn't really seeing it. And I thought, well, like, I'm going to sort of give this a go. And I was on the board of an organization that did rehab and detox related work. And I sort of had this idea and I met this other guy at an event called Recovery Rocks that we both spoke at it, and he was a dad, too. And we got talking and I said, hey, I got like, I want. I want to start this podcast. Will you be my first guest? I really didn't know what I was doing. Like, all right, I've got a Mac, I've got GarageBand. I bought a mic and headphones, and I did it over zoom, which was fine, and kind of, you know, came up with these questions that have kind of morphed over time. But that was kind of the launch of it. And I sort of snagged the next person. And I snagged the next, next person. Had a couple of people like Art, Alex Sakas from Everclear, who, because I had been a music writer, I knew how to navigate the publicist world a little bit. You know, that was generous of him. It didn't, you know, blow up my podcast the way I had hoped. I actually find that the smaller folks I interview tend to give me more measured growth, though slow, because they, like, put it out on their Networks more, but it just became this kind of thing. And I said, well, I'll give it a year and sort of see how it goes and see how it resonates. And it, it felt like it was growing in a measured way, you know, not quickly. I do it around all the other things that I do. I try and not have it interfere with family. So I've recorded at 7am, I've recorded at 11pm I kind of like figure out how to make it work. And I had a couple of moments where like people locally had listened and said something. You know, there's this mom at a soccer game and maybe I had had a sober dad crew hat up. I'm not quite sure how she figured out who I was, but she was chatting with me. She's like, you know, you're my husband listens and it's really helped him. And I was like, all right, that, that's good. I'm gonna just keep going because it's having some impact and it's creating dialogues and conversations that I think are important. And they're pretty wide ranging. I mean, we don't just talk about being a dad and not drinking because it all intersects. Work intersects, marriage intersects. Like lots of stuff about music because that's who I am. Lots of stuff about tattoos. But it kind of, kind of has just grown over time and I'm heading towards the 50th episode pretty soon. So it's been pretty good. It's fun. [00:36:25] Speaker B: So you saw a need for something that wasn't there. But if you were to say, and I'm not asking you to give some big social commentary, why do you think there you noticed that there wasn't a lot of resources like podcasts for dads about this, but there seemed to be quite a few for moms. Why do you think it was lacking for men? [00:36:44] Speaker A: My sort of half joking answer is men are emotionally stunted. Um, it's sort of funny too because like, I have like, don't have a lot of male friends. So all of a sudden, here's the guy, like talking to all the guys. I, I think, I mean, I think it's true, like historically, men have not been encouraged to share their emotions. I, I think, you know, I, I hate speaking in these sort of ab, black and white sort of gender norms because the world's really not like that. But you know, in sort of the conversation around mom and dad, at least for this, I'm not sure why it wasn't there. It just sort of wasn't that I was Finding, you know, there was, like, Sober Mom Squad, which is really a pretty big group, and they do a lot more. They do meetings. They do all kinds of stuff that is one person I. I can't do. But it was funny. Like, it just looked like there was this opening in this sphere, and I was like, oh, I can step into that, and I think I can sort of fill it. And early on, I had my wife listen to all of them at first, because I implicitly trust her. I was like, did I? Like, was that okay? Like, because I don't want to mess up either. But then I was like, all right, I think I got this and kind of just rolled with it. But it was. It was sort of a moment of seeing an opening. I guess that's like, life's a lot of, like that. You kind of look around and you're like, oh, there's an opening. There's a need. I can step into that. [00:38:24] Speaker B: But you've gotten a lot of, like, positive feedback on it. [00:38:28] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think I. There's this very pesky, super negative review on Apple podcasts. It's, like, so annoying. Like, just don't give me one star. Just don't. If you don't like it, just don't listen. Like, I just really sort of irks me. But he just wanted. I mean, the comment was like, oh, he talks about politics and all this other stuff that's just not about being sober and being a dad. And I just needed someone to talk about that. I'm like, oh, okay. But maybe my podcast is not 100% that thing. [00:39:03] Speaker B: Oh, man. Listen. People with their ratings and their comments, it's like, that's like, forget about it. Like, you're not. You're never gonna win. I never look at the comments on anything. It's just like, don't even. Don't even bother. Like, even. Even stuff that I'm not associated with. I don't look at the comments and then around people, ratings. It's like, you know, people. People. People don't realize how hard a podcast is. Like, doing a podcast and getting it out and getting people. Getting people's ears, even for 15 minutes, is really tough. I. This guy that I know that is has given me, like, a lot of feedback in my life and always starts with, I never. I didn't listen to the last record you put out, but blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Or I've never listened to your podcast, but blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, why. Why are you. Shut up. Like, I don't care what you think. [00:39:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Was I seeking you? Did I ask? [00:39:58] Speaker B: It's a guy I know, and it's like kind of a character in my life, but it's like the things that go in or like, you know, I don't know anything about your business, but blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like anyone can comment on anything about what we should or shouldn't do and da, da, da, da, da, whatever it is. But it's like doing a podcast is hard. And I'd say especially doing a podcast like the one you're doing, like, yeah, there's an opening. There's, I think, nothing. There is a need for a lot more conversations and resources, resources around men's mental health. And someone could hear that from like a negative way or just from like. I think it's just like a practical way where it's like, I do feel. It is an overtly generalized statement, but I do feel that men, like, struggle more with being expressive with their emotions and having hard conversations and speaking to other men about how they feel about things and whatever commentary, whatever direction people want to go in with that in their own lives, it's fine. But I'd say from a practical space, I think for society to function well, people of all sorts of different gender identities or however we'll express it here should be able to have the conversations they need to have where they can say, like, here are the places I'm struggling. These are the support that I need. And I think it's super cool you're doing this. It's really cool. And I'd say very specifically, therapy is not always accessible to everyone or they've had a bad experience like I had early on. And 12 steps, not always for everyone. Like, they've maybe have had weird experiences or they can't get real. At the very least, having something like podcasts where you can hear other conversations that you can relate to and get inspired by is important. So, like, huge kudos. I think what you're doing is not just cool, it's important. [00:41:43] Speaker A: Well, thank you. You know, and I'm also trying to sort of embrace that wide spectrum of what sobriety is. Right. I've just had straight up straight edge people on who've never touched a drop of alcohol or anything. Right. Just so, like, I, I think that's an important story too. And, and that's sort of the. In a way, the meat of it is like, tell me your story. Like, I go deep, you know, pretty fast. Like, the second question is, did you want to have kids. That's a very evocative and interesting question, because sometimes the answer is no. Right? And then I dive into, like, tell me, you know, your story of your relationship with alcohol. And even if it's someone who's never had a drink, there's usually something that's behind that decision. And I. And I think hearing people's stories, for me, builds community. And I think in community, people can find hope. And, like, we need a lot more of that right now. Because at least in the US People are so separated and are not seeing the majority ways that were similar. They're just grabbing onto these few ways that were different, and it's really problematic. So if I can somehow create a voice out there that gives an opportunity for people to, like, connect and hear that, like, other people have struggled. But there's light at the end of the tunnel, because I fundamentally believe there's always light at the end of the tunnel. It might be very, very far away for some people, but it's there. And, you know, you got to just like, lean in and keep taking one step forward and one step forward. I mean, that's like sort of what I feel like I did to get where I am now from, like, becoming a single parent where, you know, we had three of us in a two bedroom apartment and I slept in the living room and I knew, like, all right, this is too small. It is not working. Like, what's the next, like, right thing I need to do in that case, like, to make more money and to, like, figure out what's this path, you know, And I did that. And my kids saw that. The older two saw that. Right. They saw this sort of goal setting. There was really, in a lot of ways around them and making their life better. And that's the kind of underpinning I think, of really why I do it. [00:44:18] Speaker B: Yeah, that idea of giving people hope, too and going with a spectrum of sobriety. I like how you said that. So if you go to the Straight Edge thing, have you ever heard of a band called Cramp Shrine? [00:44:34] Speaker A: No. [00:44:35] Speaker B: There's, like, Old Bay Area band. They're great. Great band and, like, singer went on to be in another really great band called 15. I don't know what he's doing now, but years ago, like, kind of like in the early days of YouTube, he had a, like an acoustic set up and he had a song called Straight Edge Doesn't Work. And of course, like, being a young Straight Edge kid, I was like, livid. Like, how dare you, like, say this? But essentially what he was trying to say was that like, if you're someone who suffers with like addiction, Straight edge doesn't work. It's cool to be straight edge but you have to do like another, you have to do another push. And so for example, there's some people who are never struggle with alcohol or drugs at all and they're straight edge and that totally works for them. Hell yeah. That's amazing. There are some people who struggle with drugs and alcohol and they, they did the work and they're, they're sober or they kind of go back and forth throughout sobriety but they, they do more work with like a therapist therapist or they do work with 12 step or other means. And there's some people again who just like try and raw dog it. But the idea again, going about straight edge doesn't work. And like I, as I got older I realized what he meant. I knew what he meant at the time, but I was like too jazzed up on Straight Edge to like see it in like a proper way. But it's like, it's true. Like if you're someone who doesn't have problems with drug and alcohol but you just choose to live like a drug free lifestyle, amazing. Straight edge totally rocks. It's awesome. And also I like love straight edge. I think it's done a lot for me. But if you're someone like, let's say like me, who used it more as a, I'm going to be this, I'm going to immerse myself in this culture and that's what will keep me sober. It's like, nah man, you got this other thing. And like you said, like depression and alcohol and in my case depression and anxiety, it's never going to let you down. It's always going to be there. You know, it's going to like, it's going to return. Like if you push it away for a while but you don't do the work, it's going to return 10 times stronger. And that was like the battle for me. And I know for a lot of people that call themselves Straight edge but didn't do any other work. So that spectrum that we're talking about is like, there's a lot of different people who get sober, how they are sober, how they maintain sobriety, it's different. And some people don't do therapy or 12 step and they don't have any friends who are sober and they go out to the pub and hang out with people who drink but they don't have a resource. And it could be for all sorts of reasons. It could be geographical, it could be cultural, it could be, you know, all of these different things. That's why having something like, you know how they have like, online counseling that you could do on like Zoom or teams, but also like text canceling. You can text with someone, you can do it over the phone. But also things like your podcast, I think it's cool because it's like whatever people need to get and stay sober, we should have that solution for them. And so I, again, that's why I really like your podcast. I think it's just a really neat idea and really well done. [00:47:25] Speaker A: Well, yeah, I appreciate that. I work hard at it, you know, and it's. I edit the things. I don't just throw them up there, you know, it is. It's time consuming and. But it's. It's important and it, you know, and I prioritize it around all the things, all the kids, all the, all the work, all the wife, all the things, you know, you figure out how to make it work. [00:47:47] Speaker B: Yeah. So you had mentioned. We started with like, primarily your dad, and then next year, like a sober dad, then you're a husband, and then you're a son. So tell us about being a husband, like being sober, working on it, but also being with a partner that's sober. What have you gotten good at? But what do you have to keep working on? [00:48:13] Speaker A: So we met in Covid and we met, as the eight year old said to me a few days ago, he's like, remember when you met mom on the Love app? Which I thought was just like, funny. But we met on. Not on a, like Air Quote Love app, but, you know, we met and we met during COVID which was really interesting. So it's a pandemic. And you, you know, my bubble was, you know, my kids, the older two, they went back 50, 50 between me and their mom's house. So, like, that was my bubble. Right. Was like those two houses. And so the notion in a pandemic of meeting somebody and trying to figure out safety. Right. Like an intentionality. So we did all these, you know, phone calls or facetimes and all this stuff. And then we took like a ton of walks. We would, like, get our coffee and we would go walking or hiking, and it was really great in a lot of ways. It just forced this intentionality and this digging deep emotionally, like really quickly and, you know, with some physical stuff. Kind of like the first kiss in a pandemic is like kind of a. It's like a heavy thing. Right. You're like, that's it. So it's a safety thing. And so we really, I think, got to know each other really well and in this sort of real way. And for us, the sobriety we had both had something on our profiles about being sober. So I think I brought it up in a pretty early conversation. And it's just so fundamental to who we are as individuals, but also as a couple and a family. Like, we both recognize all the things we've achieved or, you know, can be grounded in the choice of sobriety. Like, you know, she got her doctorate in social work, you know, largely doing almost all of it as a single mom. Like, she's fucking badass. Like, she's. She's amazing and brilliant and. But being able to just be open and just have, you know, there's. There's no alcohol in our house. There's no alcohol at our wedding. Just really treating that. It's a foundational piece of sort of who we are as individuals, as a couple, and as parents and I think as professionals, too, in our careers. [00:50:44] Speaker B: So what are you still working on? What do you know you need to get better at as a partner? [00:50:50] Speaker A: I mean, I think the patience thing, I can be highly distractible, for sure. Like, a lot of things are going around in my brain at any one time. And so making sure I'm actually engaged in listening, you know, Mo saying to the kids, do you hear what I said? I'm like, I need to say that to myself. Like, did I hear what that other person said? Or am I, like, working on the next proposal for work or, like, crafting questions in my head? So, like, really being focused and present, I think is, like, a thing I work on. I mean, I've been really trying. Like, if we're just in bed and we're, like, on our phones and she starts a conversation, I just, like, I put my phone down, you know, like, you know, like I would do at work. Like, if I'm, like, talking to my boss, I'm not gonna be dicking around on my phone. So, like, really engaged in being focused. And if you have this little electronic thing in your hand, even if you're just, whatever, playing solitaire, you're not focused. So, like, really making decisions. If someone's trying to engage with you to make sure you're 100 present for them. I mean, I think that. That, you know, that focus and presence and patience are, like, the things that I really try and monitor in myself. [00:52:02] Speaker B: For me to think the things that I'm doing. Well, now Is like, my wife is legitimately my best friend. Like, and I've never. I've never had that before. Any relationship I ever had is, like. And as part of. It's also going to be, like, personality and match, like, the person you're with. Like, do you actually. Like, I think I've made a much better choice than I've ever made in my life around my partner and who I'm going to be with. But I'm also like, there's no one I want to spend time more with than my wife. Like, because, like, she's hilarious. We have, like, a certain kind of humor with each other. We get each other. It's like, I can read her mind at any given point. She could read mine. So my wife is legit, like, my best friend. But also I've gotten way, way, way, way better at making my partner the center of my. Of my world. And the way that I think about it is like, my ability to be a good dad is fully based on my ability to be a good partner. My ability to be a good son is based on my ability to be a good husband. My ability to be a good boss is based on the ability to be a good husband. I actually view that my relationship with Monica is the most important relationship I have. And that might sound, like, a little backwards for people. It's like, oh, well, what about your kids? It's like, oh, I love my kids so much that I. That I focus on the fact that, like, for me to be the best version of myself with them, I have to be totally right with my wife at all times. And totally right is like, you know, like, my interpretation of that is just being, like, really focused on taking care of my side of our relationship. So it's like, relationship with her is my number one that then lets me have a great relationship with our kids, be the best dad I can be, then allows me to be the best son I can be, the best brother I can be, and then be the best boss I can be. And that's kind of how I look at those. Those things. I've gotten way. I've gotten really good at those things. Like, my wife's really my best friend. And then I've gotten really good at, like, centering our relationship in my life across all things. Things I know I need to work on, though, for sure, man. Like, being in the moment is like, I've gotten better. But, like, dude, you know, I'm, like, pretty far out from playing music at this point in my life. Like, I've done It a lot. But if someone's like, hey, you know, like, what do you think about doing this record? Or, like, you know, like, hey, what do you think about, like, anything that's like, a distraction that I can start planning and, like, building, like, architecting something. Boom. Like, someone hit me up the other day about doing a record, and I was like, oh, yeah. And I just, like, totally start getting sucked into this thing. And I mentioned it to my wife, and my. My psychology is like, don't say anything to your wife about this, because if you say something to your wife about it, she's going to tell you the truth. And so, like, my impulse is to not tell her, so of course I tell her. And she's like, are you sure you want to do that? Like, that sounds like something that's going to, like, distract you and make you, like, really unhappy. And, like, the inside voice is like. [00:54:54] Speaker A: Don'T listen to her. [00:54:55] Speaker B: Like, she's trying to keep you from doing something cool. But actually, I know it's true. Anyways, I've gotten really good. I've gotten really good at centering our relationship, but, like, getting distracted and also making choices that will make me ultimate, that will lead me to doing very intricate things that will actually make me unhappy. That will require a ton of time and a ton of time energy. I still have to work on saying no to things. Not getting sucked into conversations, not getting caught up in fantasies about, like, what could be and where I should go. Like, all that stuff requires a lot more, like, effort. And I'm. I work on that, like, every day. Like, every single day I work on that. [00:55:34] Speaker A: The learning to say no thing was so huge for me, especially at work, because I spent a lot of years, you know, as a single parent and really scared, you know, financially, like, there's no other money behind me, like, and so I would just say yes and yes and yes, sort of to my own detriment. And it's really the job I had have now where I learned, like, you can say it respectfully and especially if it's through the lens of, like, I'm not just saying no because I don't want to do the work. I'm maybe saying no because I don't think it's the right strategic decision. Right. Like, my job in marketing and business development for the firm I have is to make sure we're bringing in work, because bringing in work means people have jobs, and I take that super seriously. So if we're going to do something, we need to do it all in, you Know, there's no like half assing a proposal because in the end we're not going to win the work, so we're just going to have wasted time. And then the other sort of phrase I came up with when we get really busy, which can happen, is I'll say to the owners, I'm like, the physics of time is real. Like, I can take this additional thing on in my department, but the 10%, whatever, randomly of effort for this is going to have to be peeled off in little pieces on other things or as a whole. [00:57:02] Speaker B: But. [00:57:04] Speaker A: We can't, like do everything and do it right and do it to the right level. So we have to make choices. And it's, you know, can be tricky when you have three owners, like, who have sort of, you know, their own sector and want their own success. But that's been like a help. I don't even know when I just came into my head one day, I was like, oh, this is like a pretty good phrase that sort of says, like. I'm not saying necessarily. No, I'm just saying, okay, we all need to step back now and take a strategic look at the situation to make sure we're not sacrificing something else that we shouldn't. And maybe, maybe we should. Maybe the decision is, yes, this is the absolute right thing to do. We did it recently. We got a proposal out in two days and it was hard and we cranked and we did it and we got the interview. We did the thing. Because it's important also to know when you do need to put the pedal down. You just can't always keep the pedal down. [00:58:11] Speaker B: Yeah, 100%, man. So the final thing that you'd hit on is, you know, I'm a son and you're the son of someone living with dementia. So what do you want to share about that? [00:58:25] Speaker A: Yeah. And, you know, you and I really, we dug into that when we talked before. And, you know, I keep reflecting on it because it's my mom, you know, and she's in memory care. And I was talking to my dad the other night. You know, they're an eight hour drive away. In July, my wife and I went up and we moved her in, which was legitimately one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life. I think it was the right thing, it was the safe thing. But, man, it is hard to move your mom into a nursing home. You know, like, my brother hasn't visited since then. He's coming soon. And I was, I was like, I don't know how to explain to you the level of, like, emotional weight that this was, like. It was unlike anything I've ever done in difficulty and emotional difficulty. And I remember we walked out and we kind of just. We had moved her in, and we went and they kind of scooted her off to an activity and we walked out. It was like sneaking out of daycare, you know, with your little kid. Except they tell you with your kid in daycare, don't sneak out, right, because they need to learn object permanence, while someone who has dementia kind of fundamentally has lost object permanence. And we got in the car, and my dad was just like, tell me that was the right thing to do. And, you know, and it. And it was. But I was talking to him, and I was like, man, he's gonna be 85 at the end of this month. Like, I can't. I can't get up there for whatever, you know, we have going on here with work and everything and, like, looking at the holidays and, you know, it's just hard. And he's like, I'll probably just go see your mom on Christmas and, like, hang out there. And it's just a. So bad. That disease is just terrible, and it robs you incrementally. You still love the person, but it's like, piece by piece, you're losing that person, you know, and it. It's just bad. It's just bad. And then you have your own sort of side of the fear of, like, every time I can't remember somebody's name, I'm like, oh, fuck. Like, I'm going down, you know, like. And that's sort of real. And then I'm just like, whatever. Jam that down. That's like. That's not today's thing. But it did. It sort of going back to that thing, it sort of reminded me that. And it's a little. You know, it's sort of this sandwich generation, right, that they talk about. I'm like, okay, I have aging parents and young kids, so I'm trying to be both a dad and a son in the new way that shifts as your parents age, right? You have this different level of responsibility towards them. I mean, thankfully, my dad's health has been really good, but there is this point where your parents get old and you have responsibilities towards that. And it's. I don't know if anyone ever really prepares you for that. I mean, I sort of saw my own parents do that, but I think it seems so far off and foreign to you because I was. I don't know, in my 20s or something when I saw my parents do that, maybe my 30s. So you just, you know, it just doesn't resonate with you because your parents at that point seem very young and. But then it's there, and you have to figure it out, and it's like another piece of this life. Puzzles. Like, wow, there's, like, a lot of pieces of this puzzle here that I got to fit into, like, being who I am in. In my life. And it's not necessarily even in a. In a bad way. It's just. It is. You know, it's gravity. [01:02:21] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, man. It. Like, this is the one that, like, it's definitely most things in my life, like, I. Well, everything I look at always like, okay, so, like, how do we figure this out? Like, it's always a, like, figure it out kind of thing, and it's cool. Like, that's what's helped me. Doing a lot of. A lot of fun stuff and, like, helps me do great stuff that I like, that I'm interested in doing. It's helped me, like, kind of figure out lots of stuff. But this thing with my dad, who lives with dementia, is like. Like, there's no figuring this out. This just is. And the heaviness of it. But also, I'd say, like, the big lesson that I've taken away is, like, me really, like, really getting how finite life is, like, really getting. And of course, I've. I've known people who've passed and all that, but this watching someone slip away but still be here and. But watching less of them be there, every time you see them, it really, like. It's like a total head trip. And it's really made me, like, very focused on how finite things are and. And. And not be. Not freak out about it, but more just, like, be like, now, I cannot waste five minutes because of all the reasons you just said, I don't want to do that. I want to be here. But, yeah, man, it's a trip. And the thing that I try and focus on most is make the best of a bad situation. So moving my dad into that home. My mom had a version of what your dad said to you, which was, did we do the right thing? And there are some times where I had to talk her off of the ledge of her pulling them out and bringing them back into the family home and. And all that kind of stuff. You know, when you're on. We're getting on a flight and they're telling you about, like, all the safety measures and they say, hey, if the oxygen masks come down, put yours on first before you try and put someone else's on. It's not because, like, airlines are like, hey, like, look out for yourself and screw everyone else. It's the idea that by taking care of yourself, you're better able to take care of other people and that if you try to help someone else first, the likelihood that you're going to pass out and then you have to be managed by others is very high. So if everyone's thoughtful and takes care, makes sure that they are okay first, everybody's ability to take care of each other or at least take care of themselves continually so other people don't have to manage them, increases the health of the. Of the situation. So I always think about it. It's like, make sure that my mom takes care of herself. Make sure that, like, I'm taking my care of myself, my sister's taking care of herself. So by doing that, we can take care of my dad as best as we can as he's kind of like, you know, going through this. Yeah, man, it's. It. It's heavy. All right, so as we're, we're getting towards the end of the interview here, you know, we're about to go into the crucial three, which of course, I know you're aware of, but anything that you want to, like, shout out, anything you want to touch base on, anything you want to ask me. [01:05:14] Speaker A: I mean, I mean, I would just touch back a little bit on just what we were talking about and saying. I can't imagine going through that if I wasn't sober. [01:05:21] Speaker B: No way. [01:05:22] Speaker A: Like, there's no way I would have managed that, you know, in a. In a healthy. In a healthy way for sure. You know, one other sort of random thing, and it kind of came up a little bit. At one point we were talking sort of when you were like, oh, I had like, all the money in the bank, you know, and I wasn't happy. And recently I got. I got headhunted and I was like, whoa, that is a tidy salary you are floating in front of me. And, you know, I talked to the guy and it was 50% travel. [01:06:02] Speaker B: Oh, no. [01:06:03] Speaker A: I was like. And I learned along the way because I got a job at a firm that was. And they were shareholder owned, so it was really corporate. And I did that once and I was. It was misery. And I was like, there's no amount of money. I mean, maybe not, but, you know, like, I can't do this just for money. Like, I have. I work in an amazing place with amazing people and the work life balance is so good that, you know, the additional $75,000, I mean, it was a significant amount of money. It was like bananas. You know, it made me blink, but it didn't make me even really think. I was like, I don't want to do that. I don't want to wear a suit every day. I'm going to be, I'm going to be 100% miserable if I do that. And all the things I worked for, it will then chip away at that. [01:07:03] Speaker B: Dude, that's the thing. Money's cool. Like, hey, I'm not like anti money. I like having, I like having money. And I want, you know, I want more money because it's the, it's the, I don't want. [01:07:13] Speaker A: All my records are behind us, you know, Like, I like being able to buy records totally. [01:07:18] Speaker B: Like, you know, and also it's like, you know, I don't do my job just for like an altruistic reason. I do it because I get paid for it. I'm trying to build up this company. So all the, all the things. So I'm not anti that at all. And but what I will say is that like the chipping away at that, it's like real interesting when you said that. So when I was, when I started working, it was after I'd left being a therapist. I started working at this consulting firm. First time I'd ever worked in the corporate world. And I kind of got bamboozled into the job by the company owner. He kind of kind of tricked me into taking this job. But I was in it. I'd love being a therapist. So I'm like, hell yeah, I'm going to do this. And it was excessive travel, tons and tons of travel. And I was still like, I toured a lot, grown up touring. So I was used to traveling. It was fine. But so much of your financial ability to make good money there had to do with like traveling, being on site with clients, building relationships. And it was essentially like a sales role, which again is like kind of how I got tricked into this thing. And I found I discovered I was good at it. And of course, like, I was good at it. The better I got at it, the more money I made, the more money I made. I was like, well, if I just take this trip or if I just go there or if I just do this thing and it just becomes this thing where it became again, like part of like that addictive mindset. And yeah, the numbers were in the bank, but it chipped away everything. So if you travel a ton for work, your work life balance, like sometimes I'd be gone for from Monday to Friday. Great, you're home. Friday. Friday I just recovering from the work week. Then I got Saturday to relax. But over by the end of Saturday, I'm already thinking, I got a flight on Friday, on Sunday again, I'm getting anxious about it. I don't want to go boom. It's like you've got no downtime, you're distance from your partner, your friendships start decaying. The things that you like to do, you're exhausted, you're too tired to do. So all you're left with is this like money that you have. And so what do you do? It's like, well, I might as well do something with this money. So you start buying like weird stuff you don't really need. You convince yourself of stuff and it's like kind of like that age old story. But when you said it chips away at everything, it's like, yeah, it chips away at everything. And it's cool to have money. Like hell yeah, it's cool to have money. But it sucks if life sucks. And life very often can suck if what you're trading away is your ability to really be plugged into your life for a number. [01:09:42] Speaker A: Yeah, there was, I can't remember what the number was, but somebody did this research that kind of quantified like the money point at which people are generally happy and that the amount of money required to make them more happy was like not worth the work it required. And I was like, yeah, I feel like, you know, I'm pretty comfortable. I work at this incredible place. Like I'm respected there. We do good work. You know, we're building hospitals and affordable housing. Like we're, we're doing work that's important and is helping people. Like, that's, it's pretty great. And I don't, like, I don't want to go make a bunch of money for shareholders. Where I work, all the profit gets turned back in at the end of the year. Like the better we do, the better we do. You know, that's the model is that the corporation or the business doesn't take the profit, it's spread back out among the employees and bonuses. Like that's pretty great. So people are rewarded for, you know, hard work. [01:10:59] Speaker B: I'll add something to what you just said, not as a counterpoint, but as like something like another consideration. Like I think people can work like crazy clips and travel a lot and do all that that stuff, and they can work for a company that's, like, shareholder, where the profit goes to the shareholders, all that kind of stuff, and still be very happy. But the discipline that is required to be able to do that is very high. So if we think of, like, could you and I. I know we got, like, bad knees, but, like, could you and I do a marathon? Yeah. Like, let's just say arguably we could do a marathon, but could we be marathoners, like, do it professionally? It's like, I don't know. Like, I don't know if I could do that. Probably at this point, at my age, No, I don't know if I could do that. I don't think I could do it professionally. But someone who's a marathoner can live, like. And live, like, a wonderful, full life. Like, family, friends, all that kind of stuff. It's just their discipline of how they schedule themselves, how they parse out their life, how they do things. It's very, very high. And like. Like, I'm a highly disciplined person, extremely disciplined. But I also, like, am not disciplined in other ways. And the kind of lifestyle that I like to lead allows me to have that area of life where maybe I'm not as disciplined and I can kind of be, like, more indulgent. Like, indulge more into kind of like, you know, whatever it is. It's like, take a long vacation or whatever it is. There are people who are just, like, highly disciplined who can play in the. Play in the areas that you and I are talking about not being and live very, very wonderful lives. But the discipline of it and the reason I'm hidden on this is, like, we do live in a society where it's like, there are people who work for companies that the profit goes to shareholders. We do have people listening who, like, travel a ton and do this and that. I think you live a totally cool life as long as you totally understand what it takes to make you happy and you're highly disciplined in making those things happen. I personally, when I was, like, in my last job, I wasn't disciplined. Like, yes, I was, like, doing lots of, like, physical stuff. So it was that kind of discipline. Like, I was running a lot and everything, but I wasn't, like, doing the work it took to be, like, a good friend, a good partner, or, like, to make sure I was happy. I was just, like, chasing a paycheck constantly and then, like, doing all other weird stuff. So it is. I think people can play at different levels with different capabilities, as long as they know what it takes to make them happy. And they're ultra disciplined about making that happen 100%. [01:13:18] Speaker A: Like, I don't, I don't judge that job. Someone's going to get that job and hopefully they kick ass at it. I mean, for me, it was know thyself. It was really like, this is not for me. And I've worked hard to recognize that this is not for me. Like, that was the process with that was like, it felt good to have someone, you know, reach out and be like, hey, you do good work. You know, like, we, we think you'd be a good fit. Like, that feels good. That strokes the ego a little bit. But then you, you know, for me, looking at that said, that's just not a match for me. I'm not that guy. [01:13:58] Speaker B: All right, you ready for the crucial three? [01:14:02] Speaker A: I am or I'm not. I don't know. But they're coming. [01:14:05] Speaker B: So for anyone listening who's not familiar, the crucial three are the three last questions we ask. They scale up in difficulty. They're always different for. Well, they're usually different for everybody. But let's start with this. If you're going to say, what is the end goal of sober dad crew? What is the actual end goal? [01:14:28] Speaker A: I mean, I think it might be a couple of things. I mean, I think I do have not a fantasy, but this idea, like, wouldn't it be incredible if that's the thing that I could do? But I also feel like there is a moment. You know, I still have an 8 year old, so I got some time there. But there's probably a point where, you know, my role as a dad is diminished and, you know, so maybe I'm not as present. I feel like being present in the day to day notion of parenting is key to that, you know, what I do with that. So that might be a moment. I mean, I'm a ways away from that. I think if I hadn't gotten some positive feedback from folks about that's meaning, it might have reached that point because I haven't. Takes a lot to do it. So I'm getting that positive feedback. So I don't totally have a defined endpoint, but I, you know, I could see it going until, you know, the youngest is, is launching and older and, you know, that might be a thing. Or, you know, if I feel like I've told all the stories and it's repeating, maybe I would try and pivot to something else. I mean, I like podcasting, I enjoy it. I like talking to people. So it's hard to Think about giving up that piece. But you know, maybe there are other stories to tell too. [01:15:52] Speaker B: What is one piece of coaching or mentoring or wisdom that you got from someone else that actually helped you make a change in your life that you needed to make? [01:16:05] Speaker A: I remember and this is actually someone I worked for and I didn't particularly like her, but it's this observation that she made about someone and she said, well, that person really has some professionally limiting behavior. And I thought, what are mine? You know, I like, I turned it back on myself because I had done enough work that I learned to be self reflective. I was like, okay, that's kind of an interesting lens. Like what, what are those things that I have that I need to work on? So it's, you know, sort of professional, but sort of, sort of personal. But that, that was definitely one moment. I, that has always stuck with me. [01:16:44] Speaker B: All right, last question. I want you to think of the person that you esteem most that you. And it could be anyone in your life, professional, personal, whatever that you like, deeply, deeply respect. If they were asked to describe you in three sentences, no more in three sentences, what would you hope that they say? [01:17:06] Speaker A: Wow, gotta think about that one for a minute. I think, and these might be bite sized things that I'm concerned with people's safety. And I mean that in like a broad, physical, emotional way that I act with integrity and that like I try really hard as like a spouse, a partner, dad, worker, to like do the right thing and make hard decisions. But hard decisions that try and factor in everybody's best interests. [01:17:56] Speaker B: Heck yeah, man, that was a really good answer. [01:18:00] Speaker A: I, you know, I didn't know where these were going to go, you know, because I listened to your show. So they, they go in a lot of ways. So I was like, I wonder what. [01:18:07] Speaker B: He'S going to ask this one's because you're a very self reflective person and like self reflective people like can sometimes they like they do, they can kind of get stuck in the own weeds of trying to, of trying to be a better version of themselves without knowing what they're trying to really shoot for. Because it's like you're constantly thinking about like, how could I be better? And you're very self reflective and you're trying to always improve. So I like to always pressure test that with people who are very self reflective. It's like, well, what are you really shooting for? Like who's this person that you, you want to embody? And that's why I always say pick an esteemed person, like the thing I just did there, because it's always about, what are you? What are you trying to embody? And then making sure you're getting there. And from. From everything I can tell from our interactions, you definitely seem to be, like, being very successful at reaching those heights, you know? [01:18:57] Speaker A: You know, I work. I try, you know, I guess at the end of the day, right, we all just gotta try and that, you know? And I feel like I get up and I'm like. I always say, try and be, like, a better dad, a better partner, and, like a better colleague, coworker every day, even just if it's very incrementally, but every day just to, like, be a little bit better. [01:19:19] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, man, I totally. [01:19:20] Speaker A: Some days you won't, but I think if you really have that mindset, most days you will. [01:19:25] Speaker B: Heck, yeah. All right, any closing words as we're coming to the end here? [01:19:30] Speaker A: No, I mean, I think I just did, so. [01:19:33] Speaker B: Hell, yeah, man. All right, let's. Dude, you rock. Everyone, please check out Sober Dad Crew. It's an awesome podcast done by a really, really, like, wonderful guy. Thanks so much for your time, bud. [01:19:44] Speaker A: Absolutely. Anytime. Take care. [01:19:46] Speaker B: All right, everyone, we'll see you next time on One Step Beyond. Take care. One stop. One stop. What's.