Crafting Connection with Ray Harkins of 100 Words or Less

[00:00:00] Speaker A: I'm really excited to announce that we're going to have a five part web based series called from stress to success. These sessions are going to have lots of discussion about these areas, and again, really practical things that one put together create a great path towards not just surviving, but thriving in challenging times. The topics are managing burnout and emotional labor, thrive, having through long term stress, protecting your sleep, creating spaces of vulnerability for yourself and your team, and finally, energy management. The conversation about mental health has never been more open than it is now, and we have an opportunity to go even further with that. I think back to my time as a therapist, and sometimes it felt like we had the secret combination that could really help people that really wasn't being broadcasted out to enough. So why don't we take this next step together? Please follow the link and I hope you'll join us. [00:01:03] Speaker B: Podcasting has latched on and has stayed and has only grown larger. So I think it's going to continue. People are going to make investments. People are still like, I would compare to a grade level perspective, I would. [00:01:17] Speaker C: Say podcasting is probably maybe like fifth or 6th grade. They know how to tie their shoes. [00:01:22] Speaker B: Roughly speaking, as an industry, but it's not as evolved as obviously, like radio and television. [00:01:28] Speaker C: So in five to ten to 15. [00:01:30] Speaker B: Years, it's only going to become larger. We have no clue where the ceiling is until we see that ceiling, until. [00:01:37] Speaker C: We see the plateau of it, then. [00:01:39] Speaker B: We'Ll probably be able to more accurately explain where it's like, okay, this is as popular as television was for whatever, the final episode of Mash, where half of the entire nation tuned into it or whatever. [00:01:53] Speaker D: Hey everybody, welcome back to the show. Today's guest is an old friend of. [00:01:58] Speaker A: Mine and someone who has just consistently done cool things. [00:02:03] Speaker D: And when I say cool things, there are things that have been some in. [00:02:07] Speaker A: Front of you, like playing in a band on a stage, but also behind the stage or behind the scenes, things like record labels or podcasts. And then also what he does professionally. An interesting person, and also someone who's. [00:02:18] Speaker D: Just like unabashedly themselves. [00:02:20] Speaker A: Always positive, always pushing forward, and very willing to be vulnerable and honest about. [00:02:25] Speaker D: Where he's at too. [00:02:27] Speaker A: So this is a great conversation with someone I have a lot of respect for. Before we get to it, please rate, review, and subscribe to. The podcast makes a difference. So thank you. My name is Aram Arslanian and this is one step beyond. [00:02:57] Speaker B: Right? [00:02:57] Speaker D: Welcome to the show. [00:02:58] Speaker C: Thank you very much, Ram. I'm excited to be. [00:03:01] Speaker B: I mean, I know people are supposed to say they're excited to be having a conversation with you, but I genuinely enjoy what you do, how thoughtful you are. [00:03:08] Speaker C: I respected when we did our podcast. [00:03:11] Speaker B: Together, which I'm sure we'll talk about later at some capacity, but the idea. [00:03:15] Speaker C: Of you being thoughtful about your word choices and responses because most people aren't. [00:03:22] Speaker B: And the economy of words, which I don't have a talent of, obviously, because I'm sipping over all your intro, but just that idea. I was just like, oh, not only do I like this guy, but he's obviously very thoughtful on top of it. So, anyways, I'm just excited to be here. [00:03:36] Speaker A: That is the most ray intro. Like, perfect start. [00:03:39] Speaker B: Thank you. My pleasure. [00:03:41] Speaker A: All right, so for those the uninitiated, for the people who don't know you. [00:03:45] Speaker D: Who are you and what do you do? [00:03:47] Speaker B: Yes. So I am Ray Harkins. Most people know me kind of through the podcast world, as it were. I host a podcast called 100 Words or less, and I also sang for a band called taken in the late 90s, early 2000s that still technically exists because we get to go to Japan once a year, which I'll do until I'm 150 years old. And then worked at record labels, as you mentioned before, worked at Century Media Records, worked at no sleep records for. [00:04:13] Speaker C: A little bit, and then just been. [00:04:15] Speaker B: A general music nerd industry lover. And then also have worked in the podcast space for about ten years, doing ad sales and then existing in different environments that are not related to the punk and hardcore scene. So that is a not short way of describing myself. [00:04:34] Speaker A: Okay, I love it. Let's start with the podcast world. I was thinking about. [00:04:38] Speaker D: This mean, you and I both know. [00:04:41] Speaker A: A ton of people of podcasts, and some are great. Like, shout to Jeremy. Love his really, really cool. [00:04:48] Speaker D: Some are okay and some are short lived. And in fact, I'd say the thing. [00:04:51] Speaker A: About podcasts is everyone I know has had a podcast, but they've had it. [00:04:55] Speaker D: For like a month or two months. [00:04:56] Speaker A: Or however long, because it's a hard gig. You are the first person, to my recollection, and I really racked my head. [00:05:03] Speaker D: Thinking about it, who's had a legitimately. [00:05:07] Speaker A: Cool, high quality podcast, and what I mean, quality, quality conversation, quality podcast for a super long time. [00:05:14] Speaker D: So what can you tell us about the podcast? [00:05:17] Speaker C: Yes, I am proud of the fact. [00:05:20] Speaker B: That I've been so consistent because I think that is something that, to your point, people like the idea, especially now, because podcasting means something different in 2023 than it did in 2013. When I started to really do it in earnest. [00:05:36] Speaker C: And so I think in regards to. [00:05:38] Speaker B: The podcast, just the focus of, okay, this is something fun that I want to do with friends. [00:05:44] Speaker C: I noticed a lot about the same. [00:05:46] Speaker B: Sort of principles that we have experience. [00:05:49] Speaker C: In playing in bands where we didn't. [00:05:51] Speaker B: Ask permission from our parents to do it. I was just like, oh, yeah, this would be fun. And it was just an extension of the things I was also interested in in regards to zine culture and interviews. [00:06:03] Speaker C: I was like, this is just a. [00:06:05] Speaker B: Modern version of this, so why not do it? [00:06:08] Speaker C: And if you go way back into. [00:06:12] Speaker B: The archives, I'm talking about the first 20 or so episodes. [00:06:16] Speaker C: It was a whole different show. [00:06:17] Speaker B: It was called First World Problems, where basically it was me, two of my best friends, Joey K. Who I know you're friends with, and then another friend of ours, Scott Arnold, and then we would have another person like yourself join. [00:06:30] Speaker C: In kind of loose pop culture talk. [00:06:32] Speaker B: Or whatever, and then sort of pseudo interviews. What I realized was just like, oh. [00:06:39] Speaker C: It'S not that I don't like working. [00:06:40] Speaker B: With people, but it became like babysitting because scheduling is awful with more than one person. [00:06:47] Speaker D: Terrible. [00:06:48] Speaker B: And so once I started to realize, I'm like, hey, I can just do this by myself. Not because I'm stronger without you, but just like the ease of use. I never want this to feel like a job. And so once I got that flow down, it was so easy for me to have done it for the better part. I think I'm approaching on like, the 11th year in podcasting of my own show. And because I recognized that relatively early. [00:07:13] Speaker C: On, I think that was able to. [00:07:15] Speaker B: Propel me forward to where now many friends and other people have pointed to me being like, oh, yeah, I listened to your show in high school or whatever, just like, that's really funny to think about. But that's the same premise that so many people run across in bands that have lasted longer than like two full lengths where it's like, oh, yeah, your band was influential. It's like, oh, that's great. And you listened to it when you were in junior high. It's like, oh, okay, that makes me. [00:07:39] Speaker C: Feel old, but that's totally fine. [00:07:41] Speaker A: I really like the reference when you're like, oh, it's kind of like a modern fanzine. [00:07:47] Speaker D: I wouldn't have put it that way. But now that you're saying it, it's. [00:07:51] Speaker A: Like a modern, long form fanzine where you can really get into things, but just like a fanzine, people can pick. [00:07:57] Speaker D: It up and then put it back. [00:07:58] Speaker A: Down, but then come back to it again. It's not like a tv program back in the old days where you have to tape it or whatever it is. Your podcast is interesting to me because you have done it for so long. And just like anything that you do. [00:08:13] Speaker D: For a long time, it's gotten better, but it hasn't gotten worse. [00:08:17] Speaker A: So sometimes with a band, let's say, like, a band can go for a long time, and then they just have their maintenance records after a while, right? Like, we got to put out a record this year or a zine can get back because zines are so labor intensive. [00:08:30] Speaker D: Your podcast got better over time, but. [00:08:34] Speaker A: Then stayed very consistent. The only thing that I've noticed changing is you're getting kind of a different reach of guests as you're going along. And also you'll do a guest who's kind of not a throwback, but kind of an interesting twist. Like when you did singer. [00:08:48] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:08:48] Speaker A: Which kiss a goodbye, of course. But that one was like, you're starting. [00:08:51] Speaker D: To get pretty notable guests having cool conversations. But then Tim, who I think probably. [00:08:57] Speaker A: Would be the first guy to be like, I don't think anyone cares about hearing me on a podcast, but so many people care. And that was a cool episode. So going back to the consistency space, actually, let's get to consistency in a second. When you started it, when you picked the name, like, why that name and all those things? But how did you learn the craft? [00:09:16] Speaker C: Yeah, so the name was like, everything. [00:09:20] Speaker B: Else was like a total throwaway thought. Same thing can be about band names, where you're just, like, looking on other record cover song titles or whatever. [00:09:31] Speaker C: Looking. I mean, I remember back in the. [00:09:33] Speaker B: Day looking at thesaurus where it's like, I like this word, but is there another? Whatever. It's so dumb. But the idea came to me where it was something common that teachers said at school, where it's like, in 100 words or less, or 200 words or less. And so the idea of that just kind of stuck with me, where I'm like, it's an ambiguous enough name for. [00:09:54] Speaker C: People to be like, is this a really short podcast? [00:09:58] Speaker B: I don't understand this. And so it was enough to stick in people's heads where they knew that. [00:10:03] Speaker C: Or it made them curious about it. [00:10:05] Speaker B: That was an unintentional thing. I just thought it was funny because I was like, oh, 100 words or less. Like, okay. And anybody that knows me for longer than ten minutes knows that I'm verbose and not succinct in the way that I describe things. So therein was kind of a tongue in cheek thing where it's like, oh, yeah, this is funny because I can never do something in 100 words or less. I've done media training before, and they were like, yeah, Ray, so you're not going to be for the tv hits, you're going to be for the written stuff. I'm like, that's no problem. I can't do something in 30 seconds. [00:10:34] Speaker C: That's tough. [00:10:36] Speaker B: So once I decided, landed on the name, then it was honestly a lot of it I brought over from zine writing because I did contribute to a lot of different zines. Whether it was like status fanzine, law of inertia. I'm trying to think some of the other places. I did a few pieces in alternative. [00:10:52] Speaker C: Press because that was kind of something that I picked up. [00:10:55] Speaker B: I remember my first interview I did was with that band, small brown bike at the parking lot of chain reaction, many, many moons. This was probably 97 or 98. And I just loved sitting down with Mike Reed, who I then had on the podcast, like, I don't know, three or four years ago. And I was like, you don't remember this? But he's like, oh, no, I did, because you asked questions that weren't stupid. I was like, that's great. As a 17 year old asking you questions that weren't punishing, it was awesome. [00:11:23] Speaker C: So I feel like I developed some sense of understanding what the flow of. [00:11:30] Speaker B: A conversation should be and realizing that, because I think a lot of people, especially in the idea of podcasting, is that it's, you could argue, obviously, playing in bands and, like, anything entertainment related, there's a lot of ego attached to it. It's like, I'm the host. I'm the person that's here. I'm the voice that's constantly in your head. [00:11:50] Speaker C: I realized that this was a literal. [00:11:53] Speaker B: Conversation and I shouldn't just move past. I so distinctly remember a conversation I was having with Jordan from Newfound Glory. I went over to his house because, oddly enough, he married one of my high school best friends or whatever. So it was a nice, we had a family dinner. It was a whole thing. [00:12:10] Speaker C: Anyways, meeting up with him, and he's. [00:12:13] Speaker B: Not the person that most people think of when it comes to clearly, you know, Chad is front and center, writes all the lyrics, does everything else. And so Jordan was really fun to have a conversation, because while people talked to him about newfound glory, it was just these things that he was talking. [00:12:27] Speaker C: About, like divorce in his family, like. [00:12:29] Speaker B: Things that he has gone through. [00:12:31] Speaker C: And I remember this email I got. [00:12:33] Speaker B: Because newfound glory, I mean, they are still arguably a large band, but at that time, this was probably like six or seven years ago, I was going to get a lot of people that either weren't familiar with podcasts or obviously weren't familiar with the type of conversations I was having. [00:12:46] Speaker C: So I got a person that wrote. [00:12:47] Speaker B: Me an email and was just like, you keep interrupting him. You're injecting too much of yourself in this. [00:12:55] Speaker C: And I was like, well, if a. [00:12:57] Speaker B: Person is talking about something that they went through that I also went through. [00:13:01] Speaker C: Such as divorce, where it's like I. [00:13:03] Speaker B: Could tell that he was out there. And for me to just be like. [00:13:06] Speaker C: So I'm just going to run over. [00:13:07] Speaker B: That because I'm really curious about this random stupid thing or what? No, I'm going to engage with that because that could obviously lead to more interesting places. [00:13:17] Speaker C: And anyways, the point being is that. [00:13:20] Speaker B: Taking this craft of learning how to interview people, whether it was in person or over email, when I was writing zines, gave me the base and the level of confidence to be able to ask questions that would not only elicit a response, but then be able to pick up that conversation and carry it on, as opposed to just being like. [00:13:40] Speaker C: I got a list of ten things I got to get through and it's like, oh, I didn't get to these. [00:13:44] Speaker B: Other nine things because that one thing just opened up pandora's box for us to go in places that I never thought I would go because this person shared this interesting fact. I'm like, I'm way more interested in that than these other dumb questions I thought were interesting. [00:13:57] Speaker A: It's really cool that you brought that up because it's something I was like. [00:14:01] Speaker D: I wanted to ask. [00:14:02] Speaker A: I was a little hesitant to get to. Your style is quite a bit different than the typical podcaster, where sometimes people are very directive and they're trying to create us a story arc, whatever it is, right? You're having real conversations, but you have no hesitance to inject yourself into the story and to be like, oh, I've experienced that too. Or here's my take on it. And it really has the sense of two friends doing a road trip and just like talking in a car about it and the back and forth. It's funny that you got the email about it, critiquing that because it actually. [00:14:33] Speaker D: Takes a lot of, I don't view. [00:14:35] Speaker A: It as like a selfish or self centered thing. I view it as more of like a giving thing, because it's tough to do that if someone's opening up some super vulnerable thing and you're like, oh, yeah, me too, by the way, x, Y and Z. So was that a natural thing for you or did you have to work on it? [00:14:49] Speaker B: It was pretty natural because I felt even though there is that to your. [00:14:53] Speaker C: Point, just that idea of putting yourself. [00:14:57] Speaker B: Into a person's interview or story or whatever, it can remove the artifice of the idea of, like, this is how an official interview should go. It's like every time I speak to a person, I do a little preamble at the beginning where it's just like, if I bring anything up that you're uncomfortable with, we can move past it. Or alternatively, if we're speaking about something, I'm going to offer up some semblance of being a human. [00:15:25] Speaker C: And I think that that's where I was always very predisposed to do that. [00:15:32] Speaker B: Just because I felt like that was a very easy way. [00:15:35] Speaker C: Like, I am an only child, don't. [00:15:37] Speaker B: Have any brothers or sisters. Obviously that's what only child means. But just the idea of trying to connect with people, I was always doing that. I was always comfortable in speaking with people. [00:15:46] Speaker C: But then there was that idea of. [00:15:48] Speaker B: Trying to get past that superficial leaning of most conversations. And I was like, okay, that's cool. [00:15:56] Speaker C: But what's more, how do we go after this? And I always recognize that in myself. [00:16:04] Speaker B: As being like, even if a person. [00:16:06] Speaker C: Doesn'T necessarily care as much about me. [00:16:10] Speaker B: As I care much about them, I was still willing to just completely glom onto that person within reason. I learned over time where it's just like, oh, I can't become obsessed with this person and just completely become their best friend. Whether they did not sign up for that at all, I understand that fact. But over time, I was able to calibrate that to where it's like, hey, I will be curious about you and I will make this connection. And therefore, it was so much a learning process. [00:16:41] Speaker C: The learning was not barriers, but just. [00:16:44] Speaker B: Like the understanding that not everybody feels as comfortable attaching themselves to me as I do to them. [00:16:50] Speaker C: Because. [00:16:53] Speaker B: I crave that connection with people in ways that other people are like, yeah, right. You're a little much. [00:16:59] Speaker C: I'm like, I understand that and I will back off. [00:17:02] Speaker A: I think it's one of your strengths. We live in such an interesting space where, especially in punk and hardcore, which. [00:17:09] Speaker D: It'S like, obviously I love punk and hardcore. Totally. It can cause people to wear a mask a lot and to want to present themselves a certain way and to. [00:17:22] Speaker A: Be very rulesy, like, you got to be this way or you got to be that way. [00:17:25] Speaker D: I've always found you to be like. [00:17:27] Speaker A: When I say unconventional, I don't mean like someone's like kooky aunt or something like that. I mean, like unconventional. In your willingness just to be genuinely friendly and open and to let people. [00:17:37] Speaker D: Really know who you are, it's what. [00:17:39] Speaker A: Stands out to me about you as. [00:17:40] Speaker D: A person, because there's not like, these. [00:17:43] Speaker A: Time trials of, like, this person is so closed off. It's like you really get to know you relatively well, relatively quickly. But it's really cool in the podcast. I just think that's part of what people. Draws people into. [00:17:55] Speaker D: It is like, this isn't just going. [00:17:58] Speaker A: To be an answer or question answer, question answer. It's going to be a real conversation. [00:18:02] Speaker D: Going back to the style development, I'll. [00:18:06] Speaker A: Just say from my own experience, I didn't have any idea what this podcast was about at first. I did. I was like, this is a leadership podcast. But then I was like, oh, shit, it's like so much more. [00:18:17] Speaker D: And I feel like I know it. [00:18:19] Speaker A: So much better now. But it took me about 100 episodes. [00:18:22] Speaker D: To really get it and then to. [00:18:24] Speaker A: Conduct interviews the way that I like to, to make the space welcoming, but to be able to challenge people, to get better guests, it was a process. [00:18:32] Speaker D: But I am on the shoulders of giants. [00:18:34] Speaker A: Like, all of these people have done it ahead of me, so I can learn. You were still relatively the early days of podcasts when you were doing it. So what was it like to develop a style at that time into what it became like? What was your. [00:18:50] Speaker B: I mean, what you're talking about standing on the shoulder of giants. A direct influence on me was like. [00:18:56] Speaker C: Mark Marin, the stand up comedian who. [00:18:59] Speaker B: Obviously does a very popular podcast. I've always been fascinated by the fact that even though hardcore and punk in the year of our Lord 2023 is the biggest thing since sliced bread, I never could anticipate where we're at now. [00:19:16] Speaker C: But even from a press perspective, I. [00:19:18] Speaker B: Was always frustrated by the fact that it's just like, it felt like everybody's little brother. Whether it was emo, indie rock, hardcore punk, it always felt off to the side. [00:19:29] Speaker C: And so I looked at what Mark. [00:19:31] Speaker B: Marin was doing in his interviewing style and the way that he was obviously engaging with, know, high caliber people that are like, world famous or what have you. [00:19:39] Speaker C: I was like, I want to do some version of that for punk and hardcore independent music. [00:19:45] Speaker B: In general, because I felt like no one was having these conversations. So I definitely saw that space and I was like, whether or not I actually achieved that, I don't care. I'm going to obviously try it. [00:19:56] Speaker C: So developing the style was looking at what interested me and transfixed me to. [00:20:04] Speaker B: Those conversations and taking elements of that. [00:20:06] Speaker C: Where it's like, okay, I want you. [00:20:08] Speaker B: To learn about this person from a sort of biographical perspective. Understanding where they come from, understanding what their childhood is, understanding how they got introduced to this style of music, why they still care about it, just all. [00:20:18] Speaker C: Of those kind of. [00:20:20] Speaker B: Even though they're some basic pieces of information, it is building a context for that person. Because I think that in the age of, obviously, the digital Internet that we all live in now, everything is devoid of context. You could look at a video from a person, you can listen to a record from a band or a particular song. [00:20:39] Speaker C: You don't have any backup for that. And so I felt like. [00:20:47] Speaker D: It was. [00:20:48] Speaker B: Really important for me to build that context around people where it's like, whether or not you like a person's art. [00:20:53] Speaker C: Or a band, I could care less. [00:20:56] Speaker B: It doesn't matter to me. [00:20:57] Speaker C: It matters to me that you understand where it's like, oh, wow, that person. [00:21:01] Speaker B: Has a very similar experience to me, or has a similar discovery point for punk or hardcore or whatever, or they were super into riding horses or whatever. All of these weird things that all of us get introduced to as kids and then maybe carry through into our adult life. It's painting that broad picture of a person that we all are attracted to these weird subcultures and small rooms and. [00:21:26] Speaker C: All of these things that we hold so dear? But why is it and why is it that we carry it forward so. [00:21:33] Speaker B: Often and the people that do stay involved, that they care about it probably even more deeply than they did when they first discovered it? [00:21:41] Speaker C: Because even though there's that satiation that the idea of collecting all these bands. [00:21:47] Speaker B: And finding all this information, you're just drinking from a fire hose. And then once you're an adult and you obviously have your tastes more calcified. [00:21:56] Speaker C: Than they are, you then look back. [00:21:58] Speaker B: Fondly and you're just like, oh, that really was meaningful. And I still am caring about this, even though theoretically I should have aged out by a certain point. [00:22:06] Speaker C: But I think it was important for. [00:22:07] Speaker B: Me to, again, build that context around people. So it is a time capsule of. [00:22:12] Speaker C: That person at that particular moment, but. [00:22:17] Speaker B: That one conversation and then maybe listening to their record and then maybe listening to another interview or whatever. Will paint a very clear picture of. [00:22:24] Speaker C: Who this person is and why they care about. [00:22:26] Speaker A: So going to the consistency of it. [00:22:28] Speaker D: And that's like one of the things. [00:22:32] Speaker A: So for people who don't run podcasts, it can seem like it's like, oh, you have a conversation with somebody who. [00:22:36] Speaker D: Put it on, but it's like so much work. [00:22:40] Speaker A: And I'm really fortunate because I have a team. I believe you do everything yourself, correct? All the editing, all the booking, all the reach out, all of it, right? [00:22:47] Speaker C: Yes. [00:22:48] Speaker A: So my podcast is an outcropping of my business and it makes logical sense for us to do it. And it's certainly not something that we. [00:22:56] Speaker D: Make money at, but it helps share. [00:23:00] Speaker A: Stories of business, leadership, creativity, all those things. And it really ties back into the business well, so anytime that we get burnt out on it, we're like, oh, we have a reason to do it. It makes sense for the business on your side. You've been in this podcast for eleven. [00:23:14] Speaker D: Years and it's a lot of work. You've got a family, you've got a career. So two questions, handle them in whatever order you want. Why now still, especially when you're like, hey, maybe conceptually I'm supposed to be. [00:23:32] Speaker A: I should have already aged out of this thing, of course. [00:23:34] Speaker D: So why? [00:23:35] Speaker A: And then also, how are you keeping the quality up? Because the quality is so consistent and is getting better in terms of guests. But also just like the willingness to just have good conversations in a way that's true to you is always there. So whatever order you want. [00:23:51] Speaker C: Those two questions, well, I appreciate you saying that. [00:23:54] Speaker B: I think I'll tackle the why. I mean, frankly, over time it has become easier. So this is kind of answering both questions because the podcast is now a quantifiable commodity, I. E. People know what it is. I can consistently book guests where people come to me. I don't have to be as proactive, leaning on my friend group where it's. [00:24:15] Speaker C: Like, hey, do you want to do this? Or whatever? [00:24:18] Speaker B: I still do that, but there is a large amount where it's of people that are incoming, whether it's like press or pr being like, oh, hey, we. [00:24:26] Speaker C: Know this would be a great fit. [00:24:28] Speaker B: So let's do this. So it has made it easier. [00:24:32] Speaker C: I think the why to it really. [00:24:36] Speaker B: Because there has been an outcropping of so many other obviously music, hardcore related. [00:24:42] Speaker C: Podcasts, and there's different lanes that all. [00:24:45] Speaker B: These can exist in, whether it's Jeremy's podcast, I've known him since he was a teenager and watching him do what he does, it's very cool and meaningful because he is having conversations. [00:24:55] Speaker C: They're more centered around, obviously, the first experiences. [00:24:59] Speaker B: And I pull on a little of those threads in my show, but it's like people can listen to both of those and get something out of it. [00:25:06] Speaker C: Completely different, as they would like listening. [00:25:09] Speaker B: To the guys in hard lore where it's like that's just all about Tom foolery and them hanging out, talking about fast food or whatever. [00:25:15] Speaker C: And even though there is an intersection. [00:25:18] Speaker B: Of the two subject matters that we. [00:25:20] Speaker C: Cover, we could not be different from one another. And so I like to still hold. [00:25:28] Speaker B: On to what it is that I feel is valuable about the conversations that I'm having and just documenting them and frankly, keeping my head down and just being like, oh, yeah, again, this isn't work for me. [00:25:39] Speaker C: This is all fun. [00:25:41] Speaker B: And the fact that I could have conversations as diverse as I do where I can bring people on that may. [00:25:47] Speaker C: Not on the surface, have any idea. [00:25:50] Speaker B: That there's a connectivity between punk and hardcore and what it is that they. [00:25:54] Speaker C: Do in the real world. [00:25:56] Speaker B: The fact that I can pull these people in and be like, hey, Roman Mars, host of 99% invisible, like one of my favorite podcasts that has won so many awards. I noticed that he would sprinkle in some references to punk and whatever. [00:26:11] Speaker C: I was like, this dude probably knows what's up. [00:26:13] Speaker B: And then reaching out to him and having him literally on the podcast being. [00:26:17] Speaker D: Like, you know what? [00:26:18] Speaker B: I haven't said this in 1520 years, but he's like, I think I'm straight edge. I was like, yeah, so you are. You don't drink. Yeah, but no one talks to him about that because people just want to. [00:26:29] Speaker C: Talk to him about architecture and the. [00:26:31] Speaker B: Subject matter of his podcast. [00:26:32] Speaker C: And so again, the why, because I. [00:26:36] Speaker B: Have left the door open in regards. [00:26:40] Speaker C: To, I can have conversations with kind. [00:26:42] Speaker B: Of anybody that I find interesting as long as there's that connective tissue there. Because there's been so many times that I have been pitched people where it's like, oh, here's this person that is obviously going to be a highly trafficked. [00:26:54] Speaker C: Guest or whatever, but I don't feel like there's anything there. [00:26:58] Speaker B: I'm really not going to square peg. [00:27:02] Speaker C: Round hole it because I haven't actually. [00:27:07] Speaker B: Gone through with any of that because I know if there's ever a voice in my head that says that, where it's like, that's probably not going to be good, I'm like, okay, I got to listen to that even though it'd be like, oh, dude, this could get the most social media shares or likes. [00:27:17] Speaker C: Or whatever, I'm like, I can't let. [00:27:19] Speaker B: That cloud my vision of the fact that I really might be pulling at strings. And, like, 20 minutes into a conversation. [00:27:26] Speaker C: I want to pull the rip cord. [00:27:27] Speaker B: Because I'm like, this sucks. This is terrible. I got to get out of here. And I never want to be in that position. [00:27:32] Speaker C: And so being able to listen to. [00:27:36] Speaker B: That voice in my head and understand the why of what I'm doing is really meaningful for me to still continue to keep doing it, because, to your point, I don't need to anymore. It's like, yeah, being able to still do this and some 500 episodes later. [00:27:51] Speaker C: And still find interesting people to talk to. [00:27:54] Speaker B: And as a random example, it's like, eugene Robinson. He sings with this band called Oxbow, like, very big in the hydrahead records world of the whatever. [00:28:04] Speaker C: It's like, I'm going to have a. [00:28:05] Speaker B: Conversation with him tomorrow. It's like, this is a dude who's like, I mean, he's lived a life. He's written a book on fighting people in the streets or whatever. This is a guy where I would never interact with him, besides maybe watching his band, which I have in the. [00:28:18] Speaker C: Past, but he has a dIY background. [00:28:22] Speaker B: But he's also worked in media for the past ten or 15 years. And so being able to have these conversations with people like that, it's like, I love to have those. And until I feel like I've literally run at the end of my rope. [00:28:34] Speaker C: Of like, oh, man, I feel like I don't have anybody to talk to. [00:28:38] Speaker B: Or it's like, if I. I have. [00:28:40] Speaker C: Said this to myself where if I literally am like, week to week, I'm. [00:28:44] Speaker B: Like, scrambling for a guest that never. [00:28:47] Speaker C: Need to be in that spot. [00:28:48] Speaker B: I'm literally usually always, like, a month to two months ahead of interviews to be able to publish to where I feel completely confident and able to manage all the workload plus everything else that. [00:29:00] Speaker C: I do in my life. [00:29:01] Speaker D: So one of the things that, with punk, when we're saying things from the. [00:29:06] Speaker A: Stage is like, get involved. [00:29:07] Speaker D: Like, start a zine, start a zine. [00:29:10] Speaker A: Start a band, put on a show, start a record label design, t shirt. [00:29:16] Speaker D: Whatever it is, it's like, get involved. And one of the things I often. [00:29:19] Speaker A: Tell people professionally when they're thinking about building their careers, I'm like, hey, play to your strengths. What are your strengths? And it seems like, well, yeah, obviously, but no, really play to your strengths. What do you like doing that, you. [00:29:30] Speaker D: Know, that you're good at? So if I think back punk scene. [00:29:33] Speaker A: It'S like, well, what are people good at? I'm very comfortable speaking with people. I'm very comfortable. Kind of like being out in front of people playing in a band makes sense for me. Other people, they're really comfortable with doing interviews and writing and art and putting things together. They do a zine or they are part of doing a zine. Some people like organizing, putting on events. [00:29:51] Speaker D: And everyone kind of finds their thing for you. You've done all of those things, some. [00:29:56] Speaker A: Version of all of those things. The podcast has come over time to. [00:30:01] Speaker D: Be the thing that you're known for and the other things even done really, really cool things. [00:30:06] Speaker A: But this is the one that's been long standing, that it's like, array his podcast. In fact, without giving anything away, our last guest, as when you came in here to do your podcast, pitched you a guest where I was like, damn, that's a cool guest. That's awesome. I was super psyched and already putting myself like, whoa, I can't wait to. [00:30:24] Speaker B: Listen to that one. [00:30:24] Speaker A: That will be what a meeting of two worlds, right? [00:30:27] Speaker B: Totally. [00:30:27] Speaker D: But this is the one you're known for. [00:30:30] Speaker A: So going back to that idea of allowing people to tell their story, like you were the medium to help someone. [00:30:35] Speaker D: Tell their story, why was that the. [00:30:38] Speaker A: Draw for you when you first started interviewing bands back in your earliest days? [00:30:43] Speaker B: Why that you said a word that. [00:30:45] Speaker C: Really pulled something in my head where. [00:30:48] Speaker B: It'S like, get involved. I always felt, especially because the band that I played in, I was the default business guy as the lead vocalist that just happens to fall on your plate some of those times. And so book shows, and I recognized that I was always drawn to the. [00:31:03] Speaker C: Business side of things and interacting with. [00:31:06] Speaker B: People and understanding how to pull this together. [00:31:08] Speaker C: I wanted to do that. [00:31:09] Speaker B: I wanted to put on shows locally as well. So it's like I basically just kept. [00:31:13] Speaker C: Adding to my plate as long as. [00:31:15] Speaker B: It felt like there was some connective tissue I could pull together where it's like, okay, me booking local shows could potentially help. My band could potentially be able to meet other bands where I could obviously trade shows. [00:31:27] Speaker C: And so I felt that snowball effect. [00:31:29] Speaker B: Like, as long as there was, like I said, connective tissue being able to pull together. And so the interviewing and writing for zines, it just, to me, it felt like the most logical extension where I was like, because I was doing that while I was also playing in bands and reviewing music and I just was. [00:31:45] Speaker C: Always enamored by getting more deeply connected. [00:31:50] Speaker B: To this music scene. [00:31:52] Speaker C: And so I always felt the need. [00:31:55] Speaker B: To do as much as I possibly could. It's not even so much from a. [00:31:58] Speaker C: Fact of like, oh, my legacy or. [00:32:00] Speaker B: The fact that there's more visibility on me as a person. I could never say no to an interesting opportunity or pursue an interesting opportunity. [00:32:09] Speaker C: And so a lot of the things. [00:32:11] Speaker B: That I've been able to participate in have really not been because someone's tapped me on the shoulder. Be like, hey, Ray, it's usually been me. Kind of like putting my foot in. [00:32:21] Speaker C: The door and being like, hey, have you thought about that? [00:32:24] Speaker B: Have you thought about doing something like that? [00:32:25] Speaker C: And people will be like, oh, actually. [00:32:27] Speaker B: No, that's a good idea. Do you want to be involved in some capacity? I'm like, yeah, that's kind of why. [00:32:31] Speaker C: I brought it up. [00:32:32] Speaker B: So is this idea I had. [00:32:34] Speaker C: And so I think that the podcast. [00:32:39] Speaker B: Was just kind of like a logical stepping stone in regards to the fact that the technology exists, the format exists. And once I became enamored with the. [00:32:48] Speaker C: Idea of podcasts, I was like, oh, I got to do something in relation. [00:32:52] Speaker B: To this with the music scene, broadly speaking, because there's no representation at that particular point. [00:32:59] Speaker C: No one was doing that sort of. [00:33:02] Speaker B: Critical conversation like anything in relation to punk or hardcore. [00:33:07] Speaker C: So I was like, oh, here's a. [00:33:08] Speaker B: Space that I think I can fill. And whether or not this is something long lasting or just fleeting, I don't care. I'm just going to, again, put my foot in the door and be like, I'll just try this out and then. [00:33:16] Speaker C: See how it goes. [00:33:17] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:33:18] Speaker A: And there really was no one doing it. It's like before. [00:33:21] Speaker D: It's like, oh, here's an interview with. [00:33:22] Speaker A: A band, how's your record? Or, here's your review. But this was totally different. I want to push further on that, though. Doing a podcast is one thing, because you're in the conversation. [00:33:33] Speaker D: It's like, oh, that's Ray. When I read a review for a. [00:33:36] Speaker A: Record, I'm not like, oh, who reviewed this? And I want to know about them. Or if someone does an interview, like a written interview, I'm not like, wow, I'm really interested in knowing about that person. [00:33:47] Speaker D: Writing a review is hard work, and. [00:33:51] Speaker A: You'Re really trying to give a fair review of something like a fair shake. It's taking someone's creative output for a. [00:33:57] Speaker D: Year or two, and not just the music. [00:34:00] Speaker A: It's the recording, it's the art, everything. [00:34:02] Speaker D: And giving yourself to it and then doing an interview is hard and you. [00:34:08] Speaker A: Have to write it down and do all this stuff. [00:34:10] Speaker D: So why that? It's like, I don't want to say. [00:34:15] Speaker A: Totally thankless, but you're like relatively anonymous when you're doing that, but you're telling someone else's story and critiquing someone else's art. Why were you compelled to put yourself in that position? Was it because you felt you were good at it or it was just. [00:34:29] Speaker D: Like, that's just what I'm going to do. [00:34:32] Speaker B: Honestly, I felt a compulsion partially because I do. From a schooling perspective, it was relatively easy for me to put pen to. [00:34:42] Speaker C: Paper as far as writing anything at school, and I knew that once I. [00:34:48] Speaker B: Became to not push back or contradict what you're saying, but it's like I. [00:34:52] Speaker C: Became obsessed with where it's, oh, like. [00:34:55] Speaker B: Who'S behind anti matter? It's like, oh, it's norm arenas, or it's like, oh, rumpshaker fanzine, where it's like, oh, yeah, Eric Rumpshaker. I got to know these zine publishers or whatever, and I use very big air quotes publishers. So I wanted to create relationships with these people, and then by default, they. [00:35:14] Speaker C: Saw how interested and passionate I was. [00:35:17] Speaker B: About writing hardcore punk, whatever, and so they were just like, oh, yeah. I mean, it would be as simple as sending me these cds where I was just like, I'm getting free music on top of like, this is cool, and you're paying me $20 or whatever. It's like, this is great. So I really never asked myself why. It was just once I became friends with these people because I was just punishing them about loving their thing. They saw that, oh, I could potentially capitalize on this love and be able to get some free stuff out of this. Not joking aside, I just felt so compelled to be involved because I also liked just the organizational aspect of putting together year end lists, all of these things that really scratched an itch as far as the only childness of me being like, oh, man, I got to collect all these football cards or basketball cards or whatever. [00:36:12] Speaker C: It's like just that element of collecting. [00:36:15] Speaker B: These things and organizing. And again, the context, of course, I wouldn't have been able to articulate that when I was nine years old or. [00:36:21] Speaker C: Whatever, but all of that was important to me. [00:36:24] Speaker B: And so regardless, again, of whether or not I was getting the highlight of being like, oh, this is a Ray Harkins piece, so of course this is going to be great. I'm like, I didn't care. But as long as a person read. [00:36:36] Speaker C: It and obviously felt some connective tissue being pulled there, they would be like. [00:36:40] Speaker B: Oh, that was like a good, like, that was a good interview. That's all I could really ask for. [00:36:44] Speaker A: I didn't feel you were pushing back at all. I love what you just said. And so I'm going to put an and on there. [00:36:50] Speaker D: It's like, let's think of Dan second nature fanzine. [00:36:53] Speaker C: Yes, right? [00:36:54] Speaker A: Like unbelievable fanzine. [00:36:56] Speaker C: Unbelievable. [00:36:57] Speaker D: Let's think of norm antimatter, unbelievable fanzine. [00:37:00] Speaker A: Let's think of Eric Rumpshaker, unbelievable fanzine. [00:37:03] Speaker D: These are like iconic fanzines. And for every one of those, there's like a hundred that you've never heard of that people put equal if not. [00:37:12] Speaker A: More work into blood, sweat and tears. And like zine culture interview, culture review culture. [00:37:19] Speaker D: It's such an interesting thing because it's. [00:37:22] Speaker A: Like all of this effort, where is it going? [00:37:24] Speaker D: It's going to end up in some. [00:37:27] Speaker A: Zine library somewhere, in some stack in someone's thing or like maybe in the garbage. And there it's all these voices that. [00:37:33] Speaker D: Are like burning so bright that then kind of disappear. And zines and interviews and reviews. [00:37:43] Speaker A: The first time I realized zines weren't. [00:37:45] Speaker D: Forever, I got it when I was young. [00:37:47] Speaker A: Got like an issue of Triple XXX. [00:37:49] Speaker D: And I was like, oh, and shout out to getter. [00:37:52] Speaker A: Love you, dude. You're awesome. [00:37:53] Speaker D: But I got it. [00:37:54] Speaker A: I was like, oh, I wonder when the next issue, and the person, it's like an older person is like, thing doesn't exist anymore. I'm like, oh, right. This isn't like time magazine totally thought this was a thing. And you get into it and you're. [00:38:06] Speaker D: Like, oh, zines are so finite and. [00:38:09] Speaker A: People are doing these interviews and I have no idea who these are people in these reviews. It's such a special thing, especially that medium of talking about someone else's art. [00:38:18] Speaker D: And critiquing it and drawing attention to. [00:38:20] Speaker A: It for either a good result or a poor result. But then also interviewing people, I just find it fascinating. I never had that bug to do it. Like, I did a little bit of reviews for people and I slightly tried my hand at interviewing, but frankly, it was too much work. It was just way too much work. And that's why I'm always so fascinated. [00:38:37] Speaker D: With people who before podcasting, were so. [00:38:41] Speaker A: Willing to be in that space because it's like a ton of work. And also people can shit on you. Like, they can be upset with how you did an interview or if you gave them a bad review, it can have consequences. [00:38:50] Speaker C: Absolutely. [00:38:52] Speaker A: When you name those people, it's like, yeah, but then think of the 5000 other people who, we have no idea. [00:38:57] Speaker B: Who they are in the connective tissue that I fill with that too. It's so random. But there's a zine done in the greater Ontario area of Canada on the banks of the Tomid river. And this just goes to how stupid our brains are, where you can remember these things. Honestly, he put out maybe two or three issues. I'm almost positive this dude is not involved with. The name of the zine is on the banks of the Tomid river. [00:39:25] Speaker A: Oh, that's the actual name? [00:39:26] Speaker B: That's the literal name. [00:39:28] Speaker A: Okay. [00:39:28] Speaker B: Yeah. So he put out probably like two or three issues. But the thing that I felt so connected with, with that scene and many others, to your point, that just completely. [00:39:39] Speaker C: Left aside, they were injecting some of. [00:39:42] Speaker B: Their personality into it. So whether it was just like personal writing and some of it could obviously be completely cringeworthy where you're just like, oh, this is obviously a live journal that should have obviously been kept locked up. [00:39:55] Speaker C: So I felt like that was also. [00:39:58] Speaker B: A really interesting component that was able to influence me, whether I could describe that as an influence or not. And like Chris Callahan as another example, I always was anything he wrote for. [00:40:11] Speaker C: Any zine ever, or obviously any of. [00:40:13] Speaker B: His bands, I was just, like, hanging. [00:40:15] Speaker C: On every single word. [00:40:16] Speaker B: I'm like, I am diametrically opposed to many of your beliefs, but I love every word you're. And, like, bringing that part of your person. I mean, Chris was an example of, like, he's bringing his whole person in here. The other scene that I'm talking about was know snippets of that, but I. [00:40:32] Speaker C: Just felt like, again, getting to know. [00:40:34] Speaker B: These people, whatever medium they were using to express themselves, not only helped me connect further, but then I was like. [00:40:41] Speaker C: Okay, there is something that I can do. [00:40:44] Speaker B: Whether a person finds. I love when people find out about me via my podcast and are just like, oh, I didn't know you sang in a band. Or like, oh, you sang in the band. I didn't even know that you're doing a podcast or whatever, and all those connection points when you're putting yourself out. [00:40:59] Speaker C: There is really important, because I think. [00:41:02] Speaker B: That whether you're known as a front person for a band, or whether you're known as a professional business human being, all of these things you're putting out there, you never know how they're going to return and potentially obviously influence others. Not like that's like a core tenet of what it is that we're doing. That's just an added benefit of us putting ourselves out there in so many different capacities. [00:41:20] Speaker A: All right, so I know you've done a lot of stuff professionally I want to tuck into working in the industry you're in now because it makes such a clear through line. [00:41:28] Speaker D: Please. So tell us about your job and what is your job, and essentially what do you do? [00:41:34] Speaker B: So essentially, for the past ten years, I've been working in the podcast industry, even though when I started in that ten years ago, it really wasn't an industry. I compare it to whatever Web 2.0 like, growth industry where people knew something was there, like the money was happening and advertising was happening, but it wasn't really formalized. So I basically have been working at different podcast networks, most of them relatively either large companies, whether it was like an iHeartRadio, or whether it was the first company I worked for, which was a company called Midroll and Stitcher, which was essentially one of the first more formalized networks, where it was the idea. [00:42:14] Speaker C: Of collecting 100, 200 podcasts all under one banner. Clients, advertising agencies, can reach out and. [00:42:23] Speaker B: Obviously advertise on this podcast. So I've been doing sales, a lot of different labels and roles, but essentially. [00:42:30] Speaker C: A lot of it is that communication. [00:42:33] Speaker B: With agencies, clients, trying to either one, articulate the value of advertising on podcasts, or two, being able to be like, okay, once we've gotten over the hump of one, knowing that you need to advertise on podcasts, like, this is a medium just as important as radio or television or anything else, that now it's. [00:42:51] Speaker C: A matter of being able to figure. [00:42:54] Speaker B: Out how much we need to spend, like what the media plans would look like, all that sort of stuff. So that's like, in real simple terms, like the kind of two step process, but I've been doing some version of that for the past ten years. [00:43:06] Speaker A: So your podcast came first. [00:43:09] Speaker C: Correct. [00:43:10] Speaker D: How did you enter into the professional side of it? [00:43:13] Speaker B: I entered in the professional side because. [00:43:16] Speaker C: So at the time, I was working. [00:43:17] Speaker B: At PETA, the animal rights organization, and that's where I started the podcast. A friend of mine who I just. [00:43:23] Speaker C: Knew via Twitter. [00:43:27] Speaker B: He was doing his own version of a podcast network. And this was very early days, so it's basically the only podcast that had any sort of audience were tech podcasts and comedy podcasts. And so he had those areas well covered. He was looking for music podcasts, and so he was like, oh, I know, ray, let's bring him in here. So he was like, hey, I can sell ads in your podcast. I was like, well, good luck. That's funny. And lo and behold, then he was like, oh, here, I got an ad for audible or squarespace. And I was like, that's wild, but cool. I'll do this. He then, because he was a pretty early adopter in regards to this, he got hired by this company that I ended up working for Midroll. And so he got hired by that. He was able to take all of his podcasts that he had. It was only about 15 fold it into this network. So I then was completely ecstatic. I was like, oh, wow, I get to graduate to this real premium podcast network where I could get included on ad buys for huge clients or whatever. [00:44:30] Speaker C: That's cool. Once I started to get to know. [00:44:33] Speaker B: Employees there because I started to interface with them because they were like, oh, here's a new show to our network. Here's this guy Ray. He hosts this podcast. Here's his audience, like, articulating all the value of why clients should advertise on my podcast. [00:44:44] Speaker C: Once I started to know people there. [00:44:47] Speaker B: I was just as passionate about whatever nerdy podcast that existed out there as I was for whatever late 90s metal core. You can name irrelevant bands from that era. I'll be like, dude, let's go. I'll talk about that in the same way that I know you can articulate that as well. So because they saw I was a nerd for this, they were like, have you ever thought about working here doing sales? I was like, I've never done sales. [00:45:13] Speaker C: That sounds weird, but I mean, I. [00:45:14] Speaker B: Guess I can try. Like, because I'm talking about something I'm passionate about. [00:45:18] Speaker C: If you told me tomorrow, or it's. [00:45:21] Speaker B: Like, hey, Ray, you're going to sell. [00:45:22] Speaker C: Knives, I'd be, no, no, I cannot. [00:45:25] Speaker B: I can't do that because I don't care about knives. [00:45:28] Speaker C: Most of the salespeople that entered the. [00:45:30] Speaker B: Podcast industry came from the radio background or like, digital ad sales. And so I was really this weirdo outlier of a person who stepped into the podcast industry from a sales perspective, had no previous experience with any of the other more modern mediums that people sold advertising into. [00:45:51] Speaker C: So I came at it with a. [00:45:52] Speaker B: Pretty fresh perspective in just like, hey, I'm a podcast nerd, so I can talk to you client until your face turns blue about why podcasts are cool. And so that's how I entered the industry and then was kind of baptized. [00:46:05] Speaker C: By fire and understanding, I will never forget. [00:46:09] Speaker B: Just because advertising is such a black box, where most people are like, oh, yeah, I know I'm advertised too, but it's like when you look behind the scenes and understand how all this works, I'm just like, there's so much money in advertising. [00:46:23] Speaker C: I was dealing with monopoly money, where. [00:46:26] Speaker B: When I say that, because I was like, these are numbers, where it's like. [00:46:29] Speaker C: Okay, so we're going to be doing. [00:46:30] Speaker B: An ad for 62nd ad for like $15,000. [00:46:34] Speaker C: And I was like, and you're not. [00:46:36] Speaker B: Going to go out of business when I invoice you for this. I was like, my experience with bunker hardcore is like the moment you would talk about $15,000, it'd be like, whoo, that's going to be like, net 180. [00:46:47] Speaker C: I won't be able to pay that. [00:46:48] Speaker B: For a year and a half bare minimum. [00:46:50] Speaker C: And so that was the biggest adjustment. [00:46:53] Speaker B: For me, where I was like, oh, this is real world money, as opposed to what I had experienced in the past, whether it was working at record labels or at PETA, which is a nonprofit world, that was the biggest transition for me. [00:47:05] Speaker A: So when you started working in that space, and especially because you came from an outsider perspective. [00:47:12] Speaker D: You were an end. [00:47:13] Speaker A: User of podcasts, both as a listener, but also as someone who made it, you had a different perspective than people who deal with, let's say, traditional media sources. [00:47:23] Speaker D: You had that fresh take. [00:47:25] Speaker A: Did that make you a welcome addition to a sales team? [00:47:29] Speaker D: Or were people like, get the hell out of here, you don't know what you're talking about? [00:47:33] Speaker B: It was probably, I would say, if. [00:47:35] Speaker C: I'm breaking it down percentage wise, I. [00:47:37] Speaker B: Would say 70% a breath and 30% being like, you're an idiot. Like, you don't know what you're doing. [00:47:43] Speaker C: But I think my earnestness and honestly. [00:47:47] Speaker B: My personality, where it's like, because most salespeople, generically speaking, it's like the used car salesman, like a person who's all of those cliches, which are completely true for most salespeople, because it's like, oh, you're a good salesperson. Have you ever thought about selling medical devices? And it's like, how much does it pay? What's my commission? [00:48:08] Speaker C: And that was obviously not the space. [00:48:11] Speaker B: That I was coming from. [00:48:12] Speaker C: So once most of their people I. [00:48:15] Speaker B: Was working with saw that I wasn't a proverbial threat, where I was just like, I just like podcasts. And this very Pollyanna ish view, that 30% immediately dropped, and it was that idea where it's like, oh, this guy's coming at it for the right reasons, even though I would never do that because I'm a salesperson and I'm going to crush my goal and get bonuses and whatever else that people do, it was something that it endeared me to them because I was kind of this odball that existed outside of the normal trajectory that most people go through, where it's like, all right, I graduated college. [00:48:50] Speaker C: And I'm going to hit the pavement. [00:48:51] Speaker B: Doing sales and cold calls or whatever. And it's like, I never experienced that. [00:48:55] Speaker C: And I was walked in, given a. [00:48:58] Speaker B: Client list and agencies to talk to, and got to know those people as real humans. [00:49:03] Speaker C: It's so funny. [00:49:05] Speaker B: And I know that you can identify with this when you start to have interactions with people in a real way and don't just view them as simple transactions. [00:49:12] Speaker C: They're like, oh, you're nice, or, well, yes, because I think if you do. [00:49:19] Speaker B: Something for me and I make you. [00:49:20] Speaker C: Look cool, don't we both win? And so many people view this as. [00:49:26] Speaker B: Like, a very black and white scenario where it's just like, oh, I'll crush you in order to get the thing that I need or whatever. And it's like, you probably can both. [00:49:36] Speaker C: Meet in the middle and still win. And once I started to have those. [00:49:42] Speaker B: Conversations with people that were just average. [00:49:45] Speaker C: Civilians, it really opened my eyes to, obviously, how I can communicate with people. [00:49:52] Speaker B: Broadly speaking, not only on my podcast. [00:49:56] Speaker C: But all of the different threads I could pull that could give me an. [00:50:02] Speaker B: Advantage of just being different than other people that were talking to them. It was a real eye opener for me in understanding how to be successful in sales. [00:50:13] Speaker A: Do you mind if I share something from my career? [00:50:14] Speaker C: Please. [00:50:15] Speaker D: I was a therapist for a decade, addiction and mental health, and I never. [00:50:20] Speaker A: Got burnt out at all in the work. I love the work, but I got burnt out on the leadership. That's not to say someone is a good person or a bad person. [00:50:27] Speaker D: It's just not for profits. [00:50:28] Speaker A: Don't always have strong leadership. And I just happened to have three kind of doozy leaders in a row where I was like, whoo. [00:50:33] Speaker C: It's a lot. [00:50:34] Speaker A: It's a lot. I'm ready for my next thing. [00:50:36] Speaker D: And I went into executive coaching, and. [00:50:40] Speaker A: I was in a company for a long time, about five years, that I. [00:50:43] Speaker D: Just, looking back, if I knew what I knew now, it would be a two year gig. [00:50:47] Speaker A: I'd come in, I'd learn everything I needed to know. I'd get all the data, I'd get everything I needed, and then, boom, I'd go launch company. But instead, I'm a punk, right? So I'm like, hey, how do we make this better? How do we work together? And also, I'm a punk, so I'm obnoxious about it, acting like I'm the smartest person in the room, or I've got the moral high ground on everyone, of course. So it's like, about five and a half years. [00:51:12] Speaker D: They're sick of me. I'm sick of them, right? We part ways. I start my own company, and day one. Day one, I start the company I call a bunch of people instantly got. [00:51:24] Speaker A: Clients because they knew me for my work, not for the company I had been. They knew me for the work that I do. But when they started drawing me into bigger organizations, that people kept saying to. [00:51:33] Speaker D: Me, well, you're not, like, a normal coach. [00:51:36] Speaker A: And I'm like, well, what do you mean? They're like, well, you're like a therapist, almost. I'm like, well, I am a therapist. [00:51:39] Speaker B: Yeah. Hence my background. [00:51:41] Speaker A: People are like, oh, I didn't know that. And I was like, we're not here doing therapy. We're not doing traditional therapy, but we're doing a lot of psychology of leadership. And you need someone who can, who's very comfortable having difficult conversations and being that space has a lot of knowledge, but doesn't phrase it in complex ways so that you feel that you're just having a business conversation, but they can. [00:52:02] Speaker D: Utilize that background, and they're like, well. [00:52:05] Speaker A: How come there aren't more therapists doing this? I'm like, well, I'm also a punk, so I'm not afraid to take a leap and do something. And the reason that cadence was successful right off the bat was because I was an end user. Like, I had been a therapist, but I'd also been in therapy. I grew up in a scene that was all about being vulnerable and being honest and doing things kind of like do it yourself, but also, they are businesses. I basically had all the training I needed to do to have cadence just by living life and having a professional career. [00:52:35] Speaker D: And one of the things that I. [00:52:37] Speaker A: Really hope that people get out of this is, like, whatever your career is. [00:52:40] Speaker D: Now, whatever you do, it's got an. [00:52:43] Speaker A: Application to whatever you do next, even. [00:52:44] Speaker D: If it is dynamically different. [00:52:46] Speaker A: Like, so much different. [00:52:47] Speaker D: And it's like, all of who you are matters to the next thing. [00:52:51] Speaker A: And when you say that sales, like, oh, we're thinking about sales. Like, oh, sales, totally. When I had to do sales for the company that I worked at beforehand that I did not believe in, I. [00:53:00] Speaker D: Was like, sales, but I believed in helping people so I could do it. But when I got into doing sales. [00:53:07] Speaker A: At cadence, which I do now, it's. [00:53:09] Speaker D: Like, oh, this is so that I can pay everyone a living wage. Not just living wage. [00:53:14] Speaker A: A wage where they can support themselves and their families and own homes or live life, go on vacations. [00:53:20] Speaker D: It's so that we have bigger reach. [00:53:21] Speaker A: It's so that I can support my family and we can have a good quality of life. It's so that we can do something meaningful in the world. And sales wasn't sales, like at the company I was at before. [00:53:31] Speaker D: It was like, I'm making this guy that I think is a jerk rich. [00:53:35] Speaker A: And I do believe in what I. [00:53:37] Speaker D: Do, but I don't believe in the. [00:53:39] Speaker A: Mission of this company. But then for my company, it was. [00:53:41] Speaker D: Like, I believe in this. [00:53:43] Speaker A: It's an extension of my thinking. I think we've got something that's valuable. [00:53:47] Speaker D: I love, love my family. [00:53:48] Speaker A: I love my friends. I want to help everyone. I want to do something cool. And now sales aren't like sales. [00:53:53] Speaker D: Sales are like, oh, of course we. [00:53:55] Speaker A: Do that because that's how we help. That's how we do things, how I help you. That's how you help me. That's how we help each other. And these ideas that sound cringey or these roles that sound cringey, if you just are in the working in the right place at the right time, they. [00:54:07] Speaker D: Open up a whole different way of thinking. [00:54:09] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely. And it goes to the core of not only who you are as a. [00:54:17] Speaker B: Person, but then just the idea of attaching yourself to something that you find. [00:54:23] Speaker C: Valuable, and that's where people can find. [00:54:27] Speaker B: Success in whatever it is that they're applying themselves to. I know that this statement has been uttered towards you many times where it's like, bring your whole self to work. [00:54:37] Speaker C: And just that idea where it's just. [00:54:39] Speaker B: Like, yeah, that's not always true because you shouldn't bring certain things to work from a professional perspective, but when you are bringing as much of yourself as. [00:54:49] Speaker C: It makes logical sense to do, that's beautiful, because then people are knowing that. [00:54:54] Speaker B: You'Re an actual human being. You're not just a dumb email address asking them for something. You're just like, no, we can probably be successful doing this thing together. I'm not just trying to pitch you something for pitching you something's sake, even though there's an element of that. [00:55:07] Speaker C: But yeah, you really learn about the. [00:55:11] Speaker B: Best ways to not only approach people, to obviously get you to the end result that makes you successful, but then in turn not be a terrible person back to them, where it's just like, oh, yeah, again, transactional. [00:55:27] Speaker C: I prickle at that. [00:55:28] Speaker B: The moment I see people doing that. [00:55:30] Speaker C: Towards me, I'm just like, okay, this. [00:55:31] Speaker B: Isn'T going to work. [00:55:33] Speaker C: We're not going to be here around. [00:55:34] Speaker A: Bringing your whole self to work. I'm going to quote the always amazing Andy Norton. Fucking ooh, man. [00:55:43] Speaker B: It's awful. It's so awful. [00:55:45] Speaker A: I am a believer in bringing your whole self, like, being who you are exactly, but being the heightened version. So it's like what I say, like, the high self and the low self. [00:55:55] Speaker D: So when I go to a wedding. [00:55:58] Speaker A: I don't show up in pajamas, of course, or sweatpants. I prefer to wear pajamas. Well, not pajamas. I prefer to wear, like, sweatpants or shorts or be comfortable. But if I'm going to someone's wedding and they're having, like, a nice wedding, I know I'm going to wear a suit, right? And when I'm in a suit, I feel good. I'm like, oh, this feels good. It's nice. Go to the wedding, you have fun, you take off your jacket, you have a good time, right? [00:56:21] Speaker D: But that, like, if you were to. [00:56:22] Speaker A: Say to me, aram, do you want to wear a suit when you're sitting at home with your wife watching tv, I'd be like, no, that's crazy. [00:56:28] Speaker D: It's also crazy to me to go. [00:56:29] Speaker A: To a wedding not wearing the appropriate attire. The idea is like the high self versus the low self. It's like being the high self is meeting the needs of the situation appropriately. And it's still me in the suit going to the wedding, it's all of me. [00:56:46] Speaker D: But I am showing the version of. [00:56:49] Speaker A: Myself or putting together the version of myself that's appropriate for that moment and moving with the flow of the conversation and the flow of the night. To not do that, I think, is an ultra selfish, narcissistic thing of just being like, this is exactly who I. [00:57:03] Speaker D: Am and bringing my whole self to. [00:57:05] Speaker A: Work is the most important thing, so everyone else needs to put up with it. [00:57:09] Speaker D: That actually sounds, like, moderately abusive. I feel that it's like, bring your best self to work and move with the flow. [00:57:18] Speaker A: If someone else is doing something objectionable, state your need, hold your boundaries, do those things, but also make space for others to do that with you. [00:57:26] Speaker D: So bring your whole self to work. [00:57:28] Speaker A: But to go again to Andy Norton. Fucking you, man. [00:57:31] Speaker B: Read the room. [00:57:32] Speaker A: Don't be gross. Don't bring all that other stuff. [00:57:35] Speaker C: Totally. [00:57:36] Speaker B: Don't be a bullet in China shop. Yeah, definitely understand what you need to bring to the table in order to obviously be a respectable human being in whatever situation you're walking into. [00:57:46] Speaker D: Totally. [00:57:47] Speaker A: All right, so you get that first job. It just morphs into this thing. [00:57:52] Speaker D: What's next? [00:57:53] Speaker C: So, in understanding the value that I was bringing, because I hit the ground. [00:58:01] Speaker B: Running in regards to getting ad sales, and that network that I worked for initially was kind of the only shop in town. And so as far as big clients were concerned, like, the ones who could be like, oh, I just need to work with one person, as opposed to trying to talk to 200 individual podcasts. [00:58:20] Speaker C: I don't have time for that. [00:58:21] Speaker B: So I understood as I started to kind of move throughout that company, mostly a sales role, but then I shifted into kind of a sales marketing role. [00:58:30] Speaker C: Because I saw that I could be. [00:58:34] Speaker B: Helpful to other salespeople and not just like in the biz that they call. [00:58:38] Speaker C: It my own book of business. [00:58:40] Speaker B: And so that was a role that I technically created myself, where I approached my boss, and I was like, listen, all of these salespeople that I'm working with, that I've developed relationships with internally. [00:58:51] Speaker C: They come to me for like, hey. [00:58:53] Speaker B: Ray, how is this show performed for advertisers? Or they would just lean on me, because, again, podcast nerd, being able to. [00:59:00] Speaker C: Be like, I'm not just selling our. [00:59:03] Speaker B: Most, ten most popular shows. [00:59:06] Speaker C: I dug deep in the catalog, being. [00:59:08] Speaker B: Like, oh, yeah, here's these shows that are smaller, but they still have a very valuable audience. And so because of that, a lot of people were leaning on me. [00:59:14] Speaker C: So I went to my boss with. [00:59:16] Speaker B: This idea, and she was totally on board with it and was like, okay, cool, we can transition you to this. So I did that for about two years, and I really enjoyed that because. [00:59:25] Speaker C: It was less, like, clients focused, agency. [00:59:29] Speaker B: Focused, and it was helping. I mean, I still was dipping into that. But then there was a lot of conversations that I was having internally, developing curriculums, like doing presentations, for lack of a better term, like thought leadership internally. And because of that, it developed another side of myself where I was like, oh, the helping people and making connections. I know that's part of who I. [00:59:51] Speaker C: Am, but then also being able to put a business layer on top of it. [00:59:55] Speaker B: I was like, oh, this is cool. Where I am able to scratch both itches of things that I am interested in. And the company that I was working for was about 120 to 150 people. But then I got pursued by iHeartRadio to come work for them. And that was a huge monolith. Like, we're talking thousands and thousands of employees. [01:00:14] Speaker C: So I had to make that decision. [01:00:16] Speaker B: Whether or not I wanted to go to something larger or keep it at something that was. I mean, that company had since been acquired by a larger media company that was mostly focused on televisions. This was kind of just like their, oh, we know podcast advertising is going to be a big thing. Tv is tough these days, so we need to diversify our portfolio. But then I ultimately made the decision to go to iHeartRadio, and I worked there for about, yeah, it was probably about five or six years. [01:00:42] Speaker C: And so I loved it. [01:00:44] Speaker B: I really enjoyed the experience of working. [01:00:46] Speaker C: With so many different people from so. [01:00:50] Speaker B: Many different backgrounds and being able to. [01:00:54] Speaker C: Understand, again, kind of bringing that helpful nature. [01:01:00] Speaker B: The moment that you try to approach a person being like, how can I help you? And not just serving them that line where it's just like, well, how can I help you? Because when people come inauthentically with that line, anybody with any sort of emotional intelligence can read right through that where. [01:01:15] Speaker C: It'S like, what are you trying to solve me? [01:01:18] Speaker B: What are you really doing here? And so once I developed, and I'm sure you have spoken to clients like this and other people who are navigating. [01:01:27] Speaker C: Corporate waters, when you have proven yourself. [01:01:31] Speaker B: In some capacity where your record internally. [01:01:35] Speaker C: Speaks, where it's like, oh, this person. [01:01:38] Speaker B: Says something and then they actually do. [01:01:40] Speaker C: It, it is absolutely insane to how. [01:01:44] Speaker B: Much that differentiates you from other people. [01:01:47] Speaker C: There are so many people, like, they. [01:01:49] Speaker B: Can'T even respond to a simple email. [01:01:51] Speaker C: And just that idea of being like, oh, yeah, I'll email you on Wednesday. And then on Wednesday morning, you get an email from me. People are like, dude, Ray, you're so helpful. [01:02:00] Speaker B: I feel like I'm really operating at, like, a basic level of how we all should interact with each other. But there are so many people that don't do that. And not because they either don't care or they're horrible human beings, but they. [01:02:11] Speaker C: Just either have poor time management skills, whatever. [01:02:14] Speaker B: There's a lot of professional things that can add into that, or they hate email. Like, I'm sure you've encountered many people who are just like, oh, man, my inbox is a nightmare. [01:02:22] Speaker D: It's like everybody says, but it's a. [01:02:24] Speaker C: Matter of figuring out, knocking this out. [01:02:27] Speaker B: Handling this, just prioritizing and so that developed, working at a company that big. [01:02:34] Speaker C: Really developed my skills in understanding what was manageable, what was like, oh, I. [01:02:40] Speaker B: Can'T go over there. I can't open that door to be helpful to those people because I realized that I am going to then sacrifice any effectiveness that I have on this. [01:02:49] Speaker C: Side of my work. And so it was really eye opening for me to work at a company that large. [01:02:56] Speaker A: And what was your role there? Was it the same as before? [01:02:58] Speaker B: It was technically, it was, and this. [01:03:01] Speaker C: Is such a cringeworthy term, but it. [01:03:03] Speaker B: Was subject matter expert. So what I was enlisted to do, it was technically still sales. So I heart, as you can imagine, has a lot of different properties to quote unquote, sell. [01:03:14] Speaker C: You got radio, you got events, you. [01:03:16] Speaker B: Got podcasts, you got digital advertising, you got social, whatever you want, like, I. [01:03:21] Speaker C: Heart can do with the exception of video. [01:03:24] Speaker B: And so these salespeople that work across the country, some have huge clients, some have Bob's auto repair shop in Jacksonville, Florida, or whatever, all these salespeople could technically sell podcasts, but so many of them barely have an understanding of what podcasts are as how to download a podcast. And so for them to effectively speak to a client, to be like, hey, you should buy podcasts. And then say, you or Ram? We're like, okay, that sounds interesting. [01:03:49] Speaker C: The salesperson then is me, like, hey, help. I don't know what to do here. [01:03:54] Speaker B: So that's where myself or there was about five or six people on our team. And so we would get brought in for these conversations, whether it was a client facing conversation agency, or whether it was like, behind the scenes with the salesperson, to be like, hey, I'm coaching you. Here's the things you can say. Here's a presentation you can do. Like, if you have any questions, let me know. So we kind of were, I like to describe it like a swiss army. [01:04:17] Speaker C: Knife for whatever needs of that particular salesperson. [01:04:21] Speaker B: What differentiated me from a lot of the other salespeople is that I was what they said internally, where it's like I was client friendly, where I was like, oh, we can put ray in. [01:04:30] Speaker C: Front of people, and he's not going. [01:04:31] Speaker B: To bum anybody out. He's not going to be like, oh, my gosh, guys, terrible to deal with. We're never going to work with iheart again. [01:04:37] Speaker C: So because of that, I was able. [01:04:39] Speaker B: To be tagged into a lot of different situations with sellers for whatever it is that they needed. [01:04:44] Speaker C: But it still was a lot of the talking to clients, getting to know. [01:04:49] Speaker B: Their needs, their KPIs everything they need from a marketing plan and then being able to distill it down to understanding what the most effective path forward was in regards to podcasting. And there were some times where it. [01:05:02] Speaker C: Was like, I was just honest, where. [01:05:04] Speaker B: I'm like, yeah, podcasting isn't a fit here. I'm sorry, salesperson, I know you're going to hate to hear that, but this is better served in radio or whatever. And there would be sometimes where I would literally have those conversations with the. [01:05:18] Speaker C: Direct client where it's like, yeah, so I don't think this is the best fit. [01:05:22] Speaker B: So maybe if you think about maybe podcasting could be a part of it, but you should probably look more at this tactic within the toolbox of things that iheart can do. [01:05:32] Speaker C: So that was really the core of. [01:05:35] Speaker B: What it was that we did, but it changed, as you can imagine, on a daily basis based on the needs of the individual who's doing the selling. [01:05:43] Speaker A: So after iHeart, you've got your latest job. [01:05:45] Speaker C: Yes. [01:05:46] Speaker B: So now I work for a company called Sonoro Media focuses. It's still a podcast network, but it's focused primarily on the Latinx audience. And that was something that I felt drawn to based on the fact that podcasting does not look like it did in 2013. It is way more representative in regards to the population of America, broadly speaking, and the fastest growing audience here in America, more specifically. [01:06:11] Speaker C: Well, I was going to say North. [01:06:12] Speaker B: America, but specifically, the US is the Latinx audience. And just because there's content that's being developed for them now, as opposed to like, oh, do you want to hear. [01:06:20] Speaker C: Two, as we're doing right now, two. [01:06:22] Speaker B: White dudes talk about a thing? Now there's more content that's being like, hey, this is actually people that look like me. [01:06:29] Speaker C: The representation in entertainment, broadly speaking, that's. [01:06:32] Speaker B: Happened in podcasts as well. [01:06:33] Speaker C: So I was really interested to try this out as an experiment because there's about, I don't speak Spanish, unpaquito. But I was drawn to the idea. [01:06:45] Speaker B: Of being like, okay, here's something that. [01:06:47] Speaker C: I could articulate the value of an. [01:06:49] Speaker B: Audience, articulate the value of why these clients or agencies need to work with. [01:06:54] Speaker C: Us, and then also have a much. [01:06:57] Speaker B: Smaller, like, the company is about 70. [01:06:58] Speaker C: People, and about 80% of the content is in Spanish. [01:07:03] Speaker B: I can't access that because I understand Spanish. [01:07:05] Speaker C: And so if that is a barrier. [01:07:09] Speaker B: For me to be able to pitch these shows, and so far, it hasn't been where I'm just like, oh, I see the value of what this show is. Do I listen to it? Am I a hardcore nerd about it? No, I am not. But there's still enough there for me. [01:07:22] Speaker C: To be able to describe what it. [01:07:25] Speaker B: Is that makes this show special or this audience special that this show has. And so, yeah, that's what I've stepped into. [01:07:32] Speaker D: Why the change? [01:07:33] Speaker A: So for some people, working at iHeartRadio would be like, that's the goal. [01:07:36] Speaker B: That's the pinnacle. [01:07:37] Speaker C: Yeah, well, twofold one, a tale as. [01:07:41] Speaker B: Old as time where a new boss comes into play, throws a meeting on the calendar. I had known this person previously, so it was like we had a preexisting relationship, had been there for a couple. [01:07:52] Speaker C: Of months, so there wasn't any real. [01:07:55] Speaker B: Signs of any corporate turmoil internally. So got a random meeting request, and. [01:08:02] Speaker C: It'S like, oh, why are we syncing. [01:08:04] Speaker B: Like, Tuesday at 1030? [01:08:06] Speaker C: Like, this seems weird, but whatever. [01:08:08] Speaker B: So then that morning, it was, I had some of my coworkers who were on the east coast were texting me. [01:08:13] Speaker C: And being like, I just got let go. I just got let go. And I was like, oh, my gosh. [01:08:18] Speaker B: I have a meeting in an hour. [01:08:19] Speaker C: Am I going to get let go? [01:08:20] Speaker B: I was like, there really wasn't any writing on the. [01:08:22] Speaker C: In regards to, oh, my gosh, our sales are way off. [01:08:27] Speaker B: There wasn't any real reason. So then I get on the Zoom call and kind of go through it, and I approached it very much like. [01:08:36] Speaker C: I know what's coming. [01:08:37] Speaker B: Tell me what the vibe is here, what's happening? So they were like, we want you. [01:08:42] Speaker C: To stay, but this is the wrinkle. [01:08:45] Speaker B: So we're going to take you, we're going to move you to a different department that you're technically working on podcasts. [01:08:51] Speaker C: But you are going to be serving. [01:08:54] Speaker B: What they call basically the local salespeople. [01:08:56] Speaker C: So these are people that have clients. [01:08:58] Speaker B: That are obviously, as you can imagine, local, where they're not looking to do a national advertising campaign. [01:09:04] Speaker C: And so I was like, that feels weird. [01:09:07] Speaker B: And then on top of it, they were like, yes, we're going to pay you, like, $30,000 less. [01:09:10] Speaker C: And I was like, that feels terrible. So this was all dropped on me on a Tuesday. [01:09:16] Speaker B: And so kind of like, sat there. [01:09:18] Speaker C: For a moment, I was like, even though I feel okay that I have. [01:09:22] Speaker B: A job still, as opposed to my friends who had been at the company for maybe about a year or two. [01:09:28] Speaker C: Longer than I had, so I went through that. I was like, okay, well, I am. [01:09:34] Speaker B: Not going to leave because I want a job, but I need to see what this kind of morphs into. [01:09:39] Speaker C: So after I started to understand what. [01:09:43] Speaker B: My new job was going to be and what made it even more ironic. [01:09:48] Speaker C: It was one of those things where this supervisor that was making all these dramatic changes was really not communicating it. [01:09:56] Speaker B: Internally to a lot of other departments. [01:09:58] Speaker C: That we were working with. And so I was having to talk. [01:10:01] Speaker B: To these people to be like, hey. [01:10:03] Speaker C: So you and I that were doing. [01:10:04] Speaker B: All this good work together, I technically can't help you anymore. [01:10:08] Speaker C: And they were like, what are you talking about? [01:10:09] Speaker B: Well, this happened. [01:10:10] Speaker C: And so I was telling people that. [01:10:12] Speaker B: I was getting reassigned and all those other people that you liked working with, they actually got fired. [01:10:16] Speaker C: And I was like, this feels so. [01:10:18] Speaker B: Weird and awful that I'm doing all. [01:10:20] Speaker C: This messaging and there was no large. [01:10:24] Speaker B: Emails sent out around. It was just all of these things that just felt so wrong as far. [01:10:28] Speaker C: As a process was concerned. [01:10:30] Speaker B: And so, anyways, with all of that. [01:10:32] Speaker C: To be said, I stuck around for. [01:10:36] Speaker B: A couple of months and it was even funnier what I was saying before I went off on that tangent where it was like I was given an. [01:10:43] Speaker C: Award internally where it was like, you were the producer of the year, where. [01:10:47] Speaker B: It was like, oh, you are absolutely pivotal and crucial to all of these teams. [01:10:52] Speaker C: And that was after I had been given this shift and this, for lack. [01:10:58] Speaker B: Of better term, like demotion, just from. [01:11:00] Speaker C: A pay grade perspective. So I was like, this feels, so. [01:11:04] Speaker B: Am I living in bizarro world where it's like I'm being recognized internally for. [01:11:08] Speaker C: A valuable producer at a company, and. [01:11:12] Speaker B: Then I get shifted to this whole. [01:11:13] Speaker C: Other side of the business. [01:11:15] Speaker B: So I was like, this is so weird. [01:11:16] Speaker C: So stuck around for a couple of months and then ultimately I was like, I can't stay here because this feels. [01:11:22] Speaker B: Even though 99% of my experience there. [01:11:24] Speaker C: Was great, it was that 1% where. [01:11:26] Speaker B: It really, like, this doesn't feel right. [01:11:29] Speaker C: And then, of course, once you put. [01:11:31] Speaker B: In your two weeks, you get the whole call from all of the people above you. [01:11:35] Speaker C: They're just like, oh, what? Like, I know this was handled kind. [01:11:39] Speaker B: Of weird, but like, what? You know, what can we do to make you stay? [01:11:41] Speaker C: And I'm like, we had this conversation. [01:11:43] Speaker B: Like, two or three months ago. It probably would have felt different. [01:11:46] Speaker C: I was like, but this is kind. [01:11:47] Speaker B: Of too little, too late because at that time I was getting tapped in the shoulder from other people because I. [01:11:52] Speaker C: Had started to share in my close. [01:11:55] Speaker B: Circle of professional friends in the podcast industry. I was like, hey, this feels weird that I went through this. [01:12:00] Speaker C: Am I feeling all right about this? [01:12:03] Speaker B: Am I right in feeling this way? [01:12:04] Speaker C: And they were like, oh, my gosh. [01:12:05] Speaker B: Yeah, that sounds terrible. Yeah, you're right. Maybe I'm not off base in the. [01:12:11] Speaker C: Way that I was feeling. And so ultimately arrived at that conclusion. [01:12:16] Speaker B: Where I was like, I can probably find something out in the, for lack of better term, like the general market. [01:12:21] Speaker C: That would be interesting for me to pursue and ultimately send a signal to iheart internally where it was, hey, like. [01:12:31] Speaker B: Maybe Ray shouldn't have been treated this way. And it's like, well, now I still love all of you. I still have a relationship with most of you besides the one person making that decision. [01:12:41] Speaker C: But that was something that I had. [01:12:43] Speaker B: To do for myself. [01:12:44] Speaker C: And everybody ultimately understood where it's like, yes, we moved too fast. [01:12:47] Speaker B: We were making too many changes too quickly. We should have handled this differently. [01:12:51] Speaker C: And it's like, okay, cool. [01:12:52] Speaker B: Someone did articulate that to me, so I felt good about it, and I have a relationship with them. [01:12:56] Speaker C: They weren't the one making those decisions. [01:12:58] Speaker B: But they were the one that was. [01:12:59] Speaker C: Making all of the decisions for that. [01:13:01] Speaker B: Particular side of the company. But that was some corporate intrigue on the internal side of things that made. [01:13:09] Speaker C: Me pursue other opportunities. [01:13:11] Speaker D: Let's talk about the podcast industry, please. [01:13:13] Speaker A: Because it's become an industry. [01:13:15] Speaker C: It has. [01:13:16] Speaker D: And like I said earlier, it's like. [01:13:19] Speaker A: Suddenly it felt like everyone I knew had a podcast, myself included. It wasn't like I was some front runner. I started a podcast. When everyone started a podcast, you saw. [01:13:28] Speaker C: The value in know it wasn't even. [01:13:31] Speaker A: The value in it. [01:13:32] Speaker D: I'll just put it this way. The end game for me, not for. [01:13:38] Speaker A: Cadence, but for me, is to write. [01:13:39] Speaker D: Books and to write books on leadership. [01:13:42] Speaker A: And to be a speaker on a national level. [01:13:44] Speaker D: And while I have as a speaker. [01:13:47] Speaker A: I do have a lot of that on a national level. Once you have a book or multiple books, it's just a whole different game, and part of that is demonstrating thought leadership through a podcast. And so it was never like, I want to start a podcast, because I think this would be fun and interesting. [01:14:01] Speaker D: It was okay. Working on a book, when it comes. [01:14:06] Speaker A: Down to a publisher, I have to. [01:14:08] Speaker D: Demonstrate that literally two people, at least. [01:14:11] Speaker A: Care what I think. [01:14:12] Speaker B: You got the chops, right? [01:14:13] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:14:14] Speaker A: And of course, there's always your client base, but it's like, hey, here are all of our clients, but that doesn't mean people are going to buy your book. [01:14:20] Speaker D: So we started the podcast, and I. [01:14:22] Speaker A: Was like, this is so hard. This is horrible. [01:14:25] Speaker B: This is a lot. [01:14:26] Speaker A: Seven people listened to that, and that took us hours. That was horrible. [01:14:30] Speaker D: But over time, I've done it in. [01:14:33] Speaker A: A space where I've always been strong, is just being able to speak with people. [01:14:36] Speaker D: So I was like, oh, actually, this. [01:14:38] Speaker A: Maybe is the end game. Like, I love doing this. This is cool. But the further I get into it. [01:14:43] Speaker D: And our podcast is a podcast progressing. [01:14:46] Speaker A: We have more listeners, we have more subscribers. We're moving up the ranks of it. [01:14:51] Speaker D: Slowly but surely and diligently, and we're figuring it out. [01:14:55] Speaker A: But the further I get in, the further I'm like, oh, this is not a hill. This is a fucking mountain. [01:15:00] Speaker D: An unimaginable mountain that I had no. [01:15:03] Speaker A: Idea because I never started it with that. Let's start a podcast to get somewhere. And many of the people who started podcasts around the same time as me. [01:15:11] Speaker D: Especially during the pandemic, they're gone. Of course, there's still some, and they're really, really good. [01:15:17] Speaker A: But the idea here is like, you're part of this industry that is, in a sense, kind of. I don't know if this is a proper term, but it's kind of become the new media. We've got this old school media that's still viable in many ways. But podcasts are what people I know myself, I go to podcasts for my news, and I don't go to kind of like, cable news sources or anything like that. [01:15:38] Speaker D: So it is a whole new world. [01:15:42] Speaker A: But it also seems like it's shrinking a little bit. Like there was just such a glut. [01:15:46] Speaker D: Of it, and then it's like a lot of it has faded away. [01:15:50] Speaker A: How is the business of podcasting going? [01:15:53] Speaker C: Yeah, so we definitely have passed the. [01:15:57] Speaker B: Phase of the, for lack of better term, like the gold rush, where it's your, your celebrities, your people that were obviously getting written these huge checks that obviously go on MSNBC and CNN, where it's like Joe Rogan got nine kajillion dollars and Alex Cooper from call her daddy got a million dollars to bring her podcast to Spotify exclusively. Those deals are over because people. [01:16:24] Speaker C: Because. [01:16:25] Speaker B: Podcasting in general is an open medium. There were people, obviously, Spotify is obviously trying to keep people on their app as long as humanly possible. [01:16:35] Speaker C: Whether you're listening, they don't care what you're listening to as long as you're there, baby. [01:16:39] Speaker B: And so that was their play where they were just like, okay, we have these exclusive podcasts, and so we've spent a lot of money at this but now where it's like, oh, the great reckoning of the entertainment industry, broadly speaking, whether it was the fact that you. [01:16:53] Speaker C: Can'T just continue to spend money and. [01:16:55] Speaker B: The profit and loss sheet is continuing to bleed red and people are like, hey, so are we ever going to make money ever? Is there a path forward? So many of these companies, like the chickens have come home to roost, where. [01:17:07] Speaker C: They'Re like, okay, now we need to. [01:17:09] Speaker B: Sort of fortify the castle, so to. [01:17:13] Speaker C: Speak, to be like, okay, we have. [01:17:14] Speaker B: This network of shows, big, small, everything in between. How are we going to serve these shows from a promotional perspective, where it's like, if we are a network, how. [01:17:23] Speaker C: Are these shows going to promote each. [01:17:25] Speaker B: Other and how are we going to bring benefit there? Besides just like throwing a producer on. [01:17:30] Speaker C: It or whatever, then how are we. [01:17:34] Speaker B: Going to succeed at monetizing these things? Like all of the sort of nuts and bolts of about why people work. [01:17:39] Speaker C: With podcast networks, people are having to. [01:17:42] Speaker B: Pay more closer attention to. So the business of podcasting is still very robust in regards to the growth spike is still happening. [01:17:50] Speaker C: People are spending money still. [01:17:53] Speaker B: It goes through, as in every advertising medium, it goes through ebbs and flows. But people do recognize the value in it to where it's like, you don't. [01:18:03] Speaker C: How it was three to four, five. [01:18:05] Speaker B: Years ago, where it's like, most of the conversations I was having with people were like, what is a podcast? [01:18:10] Speaker C: How do I get it? [01:18:11] Speaker B: There's less of that now. And it's more. So, hey, this should literally be a part of your, what they call in the business media mix, where it's like, yes, we understand you're advertising on television, on radio. You need to include podcasts on this because you are literally missing hundreds and thousands of people. I know it sounds like a pitch, but you are missing all of these people that are literally not advertised to. [01:18:34] Speaker C: On any other medium because they're Netflix. [01:18:37] Speaker B: Subscribers on the premium level, where they don't have ads, they have hulu without ads or whatever. [01:18:42] Speaker C: All these places where people are expecting. [01:18:45] Speaker B: To see advertisements, they're not there for anybody. And so most people that are under a certain age are so nascent with advertising. And then plus, because podcast advertising is so, for lack of better term, like native, where it's like, oh, I hear my favorite host talking about this thing. [01:19:02] Speaker C: I'm like, I'm listening, tell me more. [01:19:06] Speaker B: It's not like people are watching the NFL and being like, oh my gosh, whatever quarterback a is endorsing this product, he probably drinks it all the time this beer or whatever, that connectivity has never existed in television, but it has existed in podcasting. [01:19:24] Speaker C: So because that's sort of hard baked. [01:19:26] Speaker B: Into the dna of what this industry is, that just makes it even more enticing for clients. So it's still in growth mode, but it definitely is not the silly money that people were paying when interest rates were low. And people are just like, we just need to focus on subscribers and growth. And now it's like, okay, that's changed now, so let's figure out how to. [01:19:46] Speaker C: Make money off the thing that we are focused on. [01:19:49] Speaker A: It's funny you say that about advertising and podcasts, because I pay to have YouTube with no ads. Absolutely pay to have Netflix with no ads. Anything I can pay to not have. [01:19:58] Speaker D: Ads on, I am paying that. I'm listening to whatever my favorite podcast is, and I'm deep in it. Let's say I'm doing a workout or. [01:20:07] Speaker A: Whatever it is, and I'm deep in it. [01:20:09] Speaker D: An ad comes on, depending how busy I am. [01:20:13] Speaker A: Sometimes I'll let it play, or I'll be like, no, I don't want to listen to this, of course. [01:20:17] Speaker D: And I'll get through it. [01:20:18] Speaker A: I'll fast forward through it. But the thing that always stands out is I remember the name of the. [01:20:22] Speaker D: Company that they're working with, so I. [01:20:25] Speaker A: Don'T even listen to the ad. But I am now aware of something, even from an annoyance perspective, that I wasn't. And then if I think of, okay. [01:20:33] Speaker D: Well, what am I going to buy in this thing? [01:20:36] Speaker A: That company pops into my head, like, I was so annoying. Their ad was on, but I wonder if it was any good. [01:20:43] Speaker D: It's probably outside of just seeing billboards, places, like, just like, visual ads in the physical world. [01:20:50] Speaker A: It's probably the only place that gets. [01:20:53] Speaker D: Ads get to me based on how I've built my stuff, because I don't. [01:21:00] Speaker A: Spend time on Instagram or any of those things, of course. So it's like, it's the only one. And I could literally, for any podcast I listen to, I could tell you who advertises on them for every single. [01:21:09] Speaker B: One, it cuts through in ways that. [01:21:12] Speaker C: You cannot unless you are a listener yourself. [01:21:17] Speaker B: It's sometimes hard to articulate that value where people are. And it sounds like, obviously we're just being podcast hands here, but it's like we are because there is an inherent value at just being like, oh, you want to cut through the noise, you want to be disruptive. [01:21:31] Speaker C: It's just like, well, how about you. [01:21:32] Speaker B: Advertise to people who are just literally not engaging with advertising at all. And that's where podcast comes into play because you're just missing a huge swath of people, really. [01:21:42] Speaker A: And occasionally there'll be something advertised that I'm actually interested in, like betterhelp or something like that, where I'm like, oh, that makes sense. Oh, well, that's cool. What an interesting thing. I am a podcast head and I was not before I started a podcast. I never listened to podcasts outside of yours and then maybe a couple of other music ones. Sure, I'm not like a strong technology guy, so I can get a podcast, but I don't spend a lot of time with technology outside of email or basic Internet stuff. But actually, since starting a podcast, I've gotten super into YouTube. I've gotten into all these different things. But I love podcasts. And I'll tell you what I love about it. It's the same thing I love about bands. [01:22:22] Speaker D: It's like if someone just decided to. [01:22:25] Speaker A: Do that, they just decided to be like, I'm going to make this thing. [01:22:28] Speaker D: And let's say it's like, I don't. [01:22:30] Speaker A: Listen to like funk, but let's say it's a funk band. I could be like, oh, it's cool, someone just decided to do that. Or if it's a podcast in technology, I am not a technology guy, but I'm like, oh, that's cool that someone decided to do that. [01:22:40] Speaker B: I like the idea, I like the angle. [01:22:41] Speaker A: I just like the willingness to put yourself out there in a way that's. [01:22:45] Speaker D: Very vulnerable because as soon as you put anything into the world, you're inviting critique. [01:22:51] Speaker A: And of course, with most things, you get a lot of positive feedback at first, but the more positive feedback, that's where all this other stuff comes. [01:22:58] Speaker D: And overall, the feedback for our podcast. [01:23:00] Speaker A: Has been really good. Really positive. Like at the indecision show, I had this dude just randomly come up and give me his business card. He's like, I love your podcast. And I was like, damn, we're watching undertow last. [01:23:12] Speaker B: But I would imagine this to happen. But great. [01:23:14] Speaker A: Yeah, it was cool. But then also occasionally I've had a couple of moments where I was like, fuck. Like, holy shit, what did I do to you? Holy crap. [01:23:24] Speaker B: Yeah, you shouldn't have this violent of a reaction towards the thing I'm doing. [01:23:28] Speaker A: Totally. But the willingness to put yourself out there and to build going to back to something you said earlier, it's like when you have a podcast that you're working on, you're building a relationship with. [01:23:38] Speaker D: Your audience because you have to earn. [01:23:40] Speaker A: Their trust that episodes are going to be good, that you've got the best intentions in play. And the more you build a relationship with your audience, the more kind of daring you can be with the types of podcasts you have or the types of guests and the types of things. [01:23:53] Speaker D: I love every aspect of it, but it's challenging. [01:23:57] Speaker A: And so I want to go to the vulnerability space, and I want you to stop me wherever you want to stop, because we've kind of talked about this before, but you are kind of. [01:24:05] Speaker D: The classic heart in your sleeve guy. And anyone listening to this who doesn't. [01:24:10] Speaker A: Know you is probably like, oh, that's like a very positive guy. But you've had your own share of troubles, which you have been very open about, especially things having to do with. [01:24:19] Speaker D: Mental health and challenges. So wherever you want to go from there. [01:24:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:24:24] Speaker C: And I appreciate you not only recognizing. [01:24:27] Speaker B: Because that's clearly a signal I send out in the world. And so when people understand that, they know, frankly, how to approach me, which is usually with open arms, open hearts, whatever cliche, hardcore lyric you want to put in there. So, specifically in regards to. I mean, the first thing that pops. [01:24:47] Speaker C: In my mind is, like, my wife. [01:24:49] Speaker B: Went through a long battle with cancer, like a five year trial and tribulation. Fortunately, she's in great health now. She's technically considered cancer free, but at that time, it's like, I'm not old, all things considered. I mean, my early 40s, but we encountered this. [01:25:07] Speaker C: So it was probably around. She was 34, 35, roughly speaking, and. [01:25:12] Speaker B: So have a child. There was a lot that was going into this, and it was like a completely rare form of cancer, all this sort of stuff. [01:25:19] Speaker C: So she's a very private person, but she obviously understands. [01:25:25] Speaker B: And so. But we had to have a discussion about it where I was like, I can't not address this, not only in all the public facing things I do from the podcast, from Instagram, from everything. I don't want to keep this, just my own desires. I would feel weird keeping this from people, broadly speaking. [01:25:46] Speaker C: But I had to have a conversation with her where I'm like, you are. [01:25:50] Speaker B: Obviously the author of your own story, your own life. [01:25:55] Speaker C: I will share as much as you're comfortable with. So in navigating that, she was very. [01:26:03] Speaker B: Much like, you can share as much as you want, even though I'm going through it, this is as much of your story as it is my story. So I was like, all right, well, the floodgates are open. I am going to put it out there. [01:26:16] Speaker C: I'm going to put out this entire. [01:26:18] Speaker B: Journey, whatever trajectory that may go, good, bad, everything in between. And not like, over sharing in regards to just like, oh, here's her in the hospital getting chemo. Certain elements of it was shared, but not to the point where it was one of those things where it was. [01:26:33] Speaker C: Like, while I was trying to elicit. [01:26:37] Speaker B: Emotion and connection. [01:26:41] Speaker C: I wasn't trying to exploit whatever it was that we were. [01:26:44] Speaker B: Going through for extra additional impressions. That was not part of the consideration set because that can obviously be ghoulish where people are sharing their stuff, where it's just like, dude, that's like, too much. I never felt like we were doing that. And I say we because obviously this wasn't even affecting me. [01:27:07] Speaker C: I was healthy, my son was healthy. [01:27:10] Speaker B: But in putting it all out there, and this is going to probably hearken back to many of your experiences in. [01:27:19] Speaker C: Regards to playing shows and the connection. [01:27:22] Speaker B: That you can get with people. Obviously, like, after you play and just those really intense conversations you can have. [01:27:27] Speaker C: About whatever a person derives from your art. [01:27:31] Speaker B: The things that really got me emotional during that whole process of sharing everything, it wasn't so much of the difficult moments of watching my wife in pain or the tough doctor visits or the waiting for the test to come back. All that was obviously excruciating. Where I got emotional was people of all shapes and sizes. I'll give you a story, and whether or not Scott Vogel wants this to be shared, that's. [01:27:57] Speaker C: Sorry. [01:27:58] Speaker B: Sorry, Scott. [01:27:59] Speaker C: I'll apologize to you. But I was living with my parents. [01:28:03] Speaker B: At the time because the house that we purchased, we were redoing. So live with my parents for the better part of like a year and a half, which was a absolute blessing, because if we were separate from them, it would have been really, really difficult for me to maintain all of our schedules. [01:28:17] Speaker C: Anyways, the reason I mentioned that was. [01:28:19] Speaker B: Because my address was not a quote. [01:28:21] Speaker C: Unquote normal address where people knew to send me stuff. [01:28:24] Speaker B: I got a card in the mail from Scott Vogel. This was maybe a couple weeks after I had shared on Instagram that my. [01:28:29] Speaker C: Wife was going through this. It was the simplest card where Scott was basically. [01:28:35] Speaker B: I mean, I've known him for a long time, but I wouldn't call him. [01:28:38] Speaker C: A close, close friend. I don't go back 30 plus years. [01:28:42] Speaker B: Like Chris Logan from chokehold. He sent me a card of just basically saying, I'm here if you need anything. Just like the simplest of things. But the fact that he had to chase down this, like, my parents address. Yes, it was maybe available in an email or two that I maybe sent. [01:28:56] Speaker C: Him many years ago, but that is. [01:28:59] Speaker B: What really got me emotional, where it. [01:29:01] Speaker C: Was one of those things where people from all shapes and sizes, all usually. [01:29:06] Speaker B: Related to music in some capacity, were reaching out to me, just being there. [01:29:10] Speaker C: And then there were other people where. [01:29:11] Speaker B: It was like that even weren't related to music that I just worked with in the past. But that was what really, really shook me to my core of just like all of these relationships that this ephemera. [01:29:21] Speaker C: That we think that we create when. [01:29:25] Speaker B: It gets reflected back on you when you're living. Because, I mean, the joke is where. [01:29:28] Speaker C: It'S like people only say nice things at your funeral. [01:29:32] Speaker B: And it was like, I got to witness this. [01:29:33] Speaker C: Where people that don't know my wife at all, they have no relationship with. [01:29:37] Speaker B: Her, they just have a relationship with me. [01:29:39] Speaker C: But they were just like, man, I. [01:29:41] Speaker B: Am there for you. [01:29:42] Speaker C: I don't even know her. [01:29:43] Speaker B: I don't even technically care about her. I mean, they do. Obviously by default, by, through marriage, they do. But that is what really, like I said, shook me to my core of. [01:29:52] Speaker C: Just how unbelievable people can show up. [01:29:57] Speaker B: Even if it's just as simple as like an Instagram message or whatever. All of that, really, really. I wasn't expecting to be so caught. [01:30:06] Speaker C: Up in that, of those feelings of. [01:30:08] Speaker B: That'S where the emotion was being elicited. [01:30:10] Speaker C: But that's what really, really shook me. [01:30:13] Speaker A: The interesting line, when you're talking about sharing in a way that creates connection. [01:30:18] Speaker D: Sharing versus sharing, being ghoulish. [01:30:21] Speaker A: And I don't want to say it's tough, it's like everyone's different. One person is going to look at something and being like, oh, you're just doing this for legs or blah. Of course, it's the same way where someone might be like, they look at someone's behavior like you're just doing it for attention. [01:30:33] Speaker D: It's like people are doing something for a reason. [01:30:36] Speaker A: And whether or not you think that reason is a good reason or a. [01:30:39] Speaker D: Bad reason, that's up to you. [01:30:41] Speaker A: It's your perspective. I think people sharing, especially things with. [01:30:45] Speaker D: Health, mental health is important. [01:30:48] Speaker A: And you can always just mute. I've had people who are sharing a bunch of stuff on social media that. [01:30:53] Speaker D: I was like, good for you, but. [01:30:55] Speaker A: I got my own stuff going on. I've got a lot of anxiety right now. I can't be watching this mute. Okay, you just mute it. In fact, I literally am not on Instagram anymore because I don't want to have negative critiques of what people are sharing or why they're sharing it. And people should share whatever the hell. [01:31:08] Speaker D: They want, of course, appropriately. There's some things, there's some opinions I. [01:31:15] Speaker A: Don'T want to see from people, but it's their right, whatever it is. But you can always just choose to. [01:31:20] Speaker D: Mute or to follow or to pay attention. [01:31:23] Speaker A: And I think we're in a better position when people are, if people are going through something from a mental health perspective and they're sharing from, like, a. [01:31:30] Speaker D: Real space, and again, who am I. [01:31:32] Speaker A: To judge what's real? But I'm just speaking in generalities or a health thing. [01:31:36] Speaker D: I think it's beneficial. [01:31:38] Speaker A: Did a podcast with my mom not that long ago, and my dad lives. [01:31:42] Speaker D: With dementia, and we talked a lot about that. [01:31:47] Speaker A: And my parents, they're still married, right? But my dad lives in a home and he doesn't know who we are anymore. My mom talked a lot about that. [01:31:56] Speaker D: And on one side, someone could be. [01:31:57] Speaker A: Like, oh, that's to draw people on the podcast. And for another side, it could be. [01:32:02] Speaker D: Like, no, this is for everyone else. [01:32:05] Speaker A: Who'S in early stages of this and. [01:32:07] Speaker D: Doesn'T know what to do, doesn't know. [01:32:08] Speaker A: How to process it, doesn't know where. [01:32:09] Speaker D: To go to help or for people. [01:32:11] Speaker A: Who'Ve been through it and can look back and give us advice. [01:32:14] Speaker D: And I've had both, on both sides. [01:32:16] Speaker A: I've had people reach out and be. [01:32:17] Speaker D: Like, dude, we're going through this now. [01:32:20] Speaker A: Thank you for putting that up. And I've had people be like, hey. [01:32:23] Speaker D: Five years from now, this is probably. [01:32:25] Speaker A: How you're going to feel. And if you are, reach out to me. [01:32:27] Speaker D: I think if you do something, you. [01:32:29] Speaker A: Do it from the right place and you do it well, because anything worth. [01:32:32] Speaker D: Doing should be done well. [01:32:33] Speaker A: Sure. And you do it well. I think it gives people the chance. [01:32:38] Speaker D: To show that they care and that. [01:32:42] Speaker A: Human beings have a really strong, good streak if you set up the conditions. [01:32:45] Speaker D: For them to show it. [01:32:46] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. [01:32:47] Speaker C: And I think to that point, too. [01:32:50] Speaker B: Just the idea of being able to navigate, the idea of broadcasting that, like, whatever it is that you're going through, to me, the instinct that I immediately. [01:33:01] Speaker C: Went to was just like, if I can't be, and this is going to. [01:33:05] Speaker B: Sound like it's just a walking cliche, but if I can't be the best version of myself to you or anybody. [01:33:10] Speaker C: Else. [01:33:13] Speaker B: I want them to know why, where. It's like, yo, I'm in the middle of this. [01:33:17] Speaker C: I want you to be aware of this. [01:33:19] Speaker B: So not like you need to treat me with kid gloves where I'm like, oh, should I even bring up, how's your wife's help? I totally understand why people would not want to bring that up or whatever, but at the same time, it's like. [01:33:30] Speaker C: Broadcasting that just makes you more human. [01:33:35] Speaker B: Because you're going through something that as obvious. I mean, especially when you're talking about the curated lives that we live. If you're not sharing. [01:33:46] Speaker D: As much as. [01:33:46] Speaker B: You'Re going through, then you're obviously just sharing this snippet of yourself, which is fine, and that's how most people live. But it was like, I can't do this and not talk about this in some capacity and just be like, all right, we're going to keep this private. We're going to keep this locked down. [01:34:00] Speaker C: I was like, that's not my own instinct. [01:34:02] Speaker B: No matter what it is that we're. [01:34:03] Speaker C: Going through, it's not my instinct. [01:34:05] Speaker B: So I'm like, I just want to make sure you're okay with it. [01:34:07] Speaker C: And probably, we probably would have to. [01:34:09] Speaker B: Navigate it differently if she was as online as I am or as similar of a personality as I was. But because she wasn't, she was just. [01:34:16] Speaker C: Like, no, that's totally fine. [01:34:20] Speaker B: As long as there is that attention to detail, like what you're talking about, where if you're doing something, you're doing it. Well, then I'm like, yeah, as long as we're portraying what it is that we're going through, then so be it. [01:34:30] Speaker C: And then that way, in turn, people. [01:34:32] Speaker B: Like you said, obviously offer unsolicited advice no matter what, which is, that's fine. And people are trying to identify with them, with whatever it is you're going. [01:34:41] Speaker C: Through, but understanding that people know what. [01:34:45] Speaker B: It is that you're going through, if they're approaching you at a certain time. [01:34:48] Speaker C: And that's just beneficial in general. [01:34:51] Speaker D: To your point, it's funny. [01:34:52] Speaker A: Unsolicited advice. I actually solicited advice from someone the other night, like a friend of mine who I love. I asked their advice and they started giving me their advice, and I was like, I wish I hadn't asked her. [01:35:03] Speaker B: Wait a minute. I revoked that same. [01:35:05] Speaker A: And it wasn't that their advice was bad. It was. They had just gone through something kind of similar to what something I'd been going through. And it had this happy ending. It had a happy ending. And I was like, I don't think this is going to go that way. I don't think your advice, knowing the parties involved, is good advice. And I was like, I started kind of, like, backpedaling. I kind of didn't want to talk about it anymore, but they were already almost like, listen, son. [01:35:30] Speaker B: I was like, damn. Yeah, well, the horse is out of the barn on this one. Can't bring this back totally. [01:35:39] Speaker A: But speaking to giving people chances to be a good person, there's something I told you last time I saw you at a show that I want to talk about now. [01:35:47] Speaker D: Yes, it has to. With you and me. Sure. [01:35:51] Speaker A: So you and I have known each. [01:35:53] Speaker D: Other for a long time, but always. [01:35:55] Speaker A: Just like, very like, oh, hey, how are you doing? [01:35:56] Speaker C: In passing. [01:35:57] Speaker A: Yeah, just really in passing. We've been at each other's shows. [01:36:01] Speaker D: We've talked. When I went through a really difficult. [01:36:05] Speaker A: Period in my life, and it wasn't just, like, one thing, it was my dad got sick in this period. I got fired from my job in this period. I went through what went on to be, like, a very catastrophic divorce. I went through a series of events within a very short period that was. [01:36:25] Speaker D: Like, totally changed who I am as. [01:36:27] Speaker A: A human being, changed my life, flipped everything upside down. [01:36:30] Speaker D: I went through a period where. And anyone from punk and hardcore scene. [01:36:35] Speaker A: Is going to know what I'm referring to. [01:36:36] Speaker D: I went through a period where I just was out of contact with everyone. And I wasn't just out of contact with everyone. I was off social media, didn't have. [01:36:47] Speaker A: Instagram, didn't have Facebook. [01:36:48] Speaker D: I deleted all of it. [01:36:50] Speaker A: I had pulled away from most people. [01:36:52] Speaker D: That I was friends with, and I. [01:36:54] Speaker A: Really just had a small group of people that I was speaking to. And during that time, I was building up cadence. But I remember feeling this great sense. [01:37:02] Speaker D: Of isolation and desperation. [01:37:13] Speaker A: I don't have an ability to speak to people about what's going on. For me, it's terrified to just hit. [01:37:18] Speaker D: People up and being like, hey, are we cool? [01:37:23] Speaker A: And also, it's like, you don't want to kind of start being like, here's my side of the story. [01:37:26] Speaker D: I was just like, okay. And I just remember feeling like I. [01:37:32] Speaker A: Have never in my life felt like I have no ability to communicate with people. [01:37:36] Speaker D: Nobody's coming to me for interviews because I wasn't playing in an active band. [01:37:41] Speaker A: And from a band perspective, I had become kind of radioactive. Me and my friend, group of friends. [01:37:46] Speaker D: Have become a bit radioactive, and nobody's. [01:37:49] Speaker A: Reaching out to us for any good reason. [01:37:52] Speaker D: And the business was going great, but. [01:37:57] Speaker A: My personal life was a train wreck. And all I had was, like, these. [01:38:01] Speaker D: Few friends was in touch with. And out of nowhere, you hit me. [01:38:05] Speaker A: Up, and I started an Instagram. [01:38:08] Speaker D: And in fact, I was so hesitant. [01:38:10] Speaker A: To start an Instagram that I started it, but I didn't even go under my own name. I just kind of had this other name. Then I've got the Instagram. I'm having anxiety attacks about it. Like, really intense. I get messages from people. I'm, like, leaving them unred for days. [01:38:26] Speaker D: And then you hit me up out. [01:38:27] Speaker A: Of the blue, and they're like, hey, do you want to do an interview? [01:38:29] Speaker D: And I remember talking to a couple of friends, and they were like, don't do it. [01:38:34] Speaker A: Not because of you. They're like, you're inviting something negative to do this. You are putting your hand up and. [01:38:40] Speaker D: Saying, hey, I'm still here, and you don't want that. [01:38:43] Speaker A: And in fact, I had one friend really push on me. [01:38:45] Speaker D: It was like, don't do it. [01:38:46] Speaker A: It's only bad things are going to come from this. [01:38:49] Speaker D: Don't do it. And I was so afraid to do that. [01:38:56] Speaker A: But I trusted you because I'd followed the show, you know what I mean? And we'd known each other, but we'd just known each other a bit. [01:39:02] Speaker D: But I also knew, like, you're a. [01:39:04] Speaker A: Decent person, and you'd been very vulnerable online and shared things before. [01:39:08] Speaker D: And I was like, okay, I'll do this. [01:39:10] Speaker A: And I remember doing the interview with you and sounding composed, but inside, just. [01:39:15] Speaker D: Like, being a ball of nerves. [01:39:18] Speaker A: I've never, probably never been more nervous to talk to someone in my life. [01:39:21] Speaker C: Sure. [01:39:21] Speaker D: And then we finished it, and then. [01:39:22] Speaker A: I was very prescriptive with you. Like, I don't want this on there. I don't want that. [01:39:26] Speaker B: Totally. [01:39:27] Speaker A: And then I was very interested in how many people were listening to it, and not because it was from an ego perspective, because I was actually kind. [01:39:33] Speaker D: Of scared for people to listen to. [01:39:35] Speaker B: Right. [01:39:35] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:39:36] Speaker A: It was like, oh, x amount of people have listened to it. [01:39:39] Speaker D: And that would be both, like, a. [01:39:42] Speaker A: Good number for me, where it's like, okay, I've kind of put a flag out there, but also like, holy fuck, what is that? [01:39:46] Speaker B: I don't want this to blow up. [01:39:47] Speaker D: Right. And that's why I was checking in. [01:39:50] Speaker A: With you so much on it. [01:39:51] Speaker D: And I only got the best feedback. [01:39:56] Speaker A: From people where people are like, oh, my God, I haven't talked to you in years. How are you? I heard this. It made me want to reach out to you. I didn't know what you were going through, like, hey, man, we should hang out. Like, oh, hey, be on my podcast. Are you playing music now? Do you want to? [01:40:11] Speaker D: It was like suddenly I had come from being living underwater to kind of breathing air again. [01:40:22] Speaker C: Sure. [01:40:22] Speaker A: And I think of that, that you had no reason to do that because. [01:40:27] Speaker D: You have plenty of guests that you. [01:40:28] Speaker A: Can get any given time. And also, it's like you kind of. [01:40:31] Speaker D: Put a cloak of the brand of your podcast around me and said, it's okay. And you didn't ask me, like, stupid questions. [01:40:38] Speaker A: You weren't trying to push me to do something I didn't want to do. And you basically, without saying it to me, was like, hey, man, it's okay to be a person in this world. [01:40:47] Speaker D: Like this world we walk in, you. [01:40:49] Speaker A: Can be a person in this world. [01:40:50] Speaker D: Let me just help you here. [01:40:52] Speaker A: And I know I said this to you, and when I said it to you in person, you were like, oh, wow, thanks. [01:40:56] Speaker C: No, not only did it resonate with me, because helping you in any capacity. [01:41:04] Speaker B: That'S obviously an unintentional consequence, or not consequence, but an unintentional benefit. [01:41:09] Speaker C: There we go. [01:41:11] Speaker B: I think the thing that hits me about what you're saying in regards to that is just like, being able, again. [01:41:17] Speaker C: To give sounds dumb, but just like. [01:41:20] Speaker B: You'Ve given the space, but it's like your value as a person is not attached to anything that you're doing. That's the initial attraction to point for most of us, for whatever it is that we're doing. [01:41:36] Speaker D: Totally. [01:41:36] Speaker B: But the core value of like, oh, yeah, to your point of just like, your reputation precedes you. [01:41:42] Speaker C: Where I was just like, I know a ram has interesting thoughts, has interesting experiences. All of these things I knew preceded. [01:41:51] Speaker B: Me, wanting to speak to you, and I was just like, regardless of the timing of the reach out, I was just like, oh, this feels enough away from your traumatic event of going through, where I was like, oh, yeah, this. [01:42:04] Speaker C: Feels appropriate, and I just want to. [01:42:07] Speaker B: Know more about you as an individual. [01:42:09] Speaker C: But all of those things that you. [01:42:11] Speaker B: Can give to a person by just. [01:42:13] Speaker C: Like you said, opening up something, however. [01:42:18] Speaker B: You felt going into it, where it's just like, I want to control certain aspects of this. I want to control the presentation. You still were very open yourself. You were just being yourself. [01:42:29] Speaker C: And that was really not only special. [01:42:31] Speaker B: To me, but obviously special for you to open yourself up so that people. [01:42:35] Speaker C: Could be like, oh, I can tap into a ram, and it's totally good. [01:42:39] Speaker A: It was totally good. [01:42:40] Speaker D: And from that, I was able to do change. I was able to put out a. [01:42:45] Speaker A: New record, which I wouldn't have done beyond that. And I know it might seem like I'm kind of hyping up this thing. [01:42:50] Speaker D: But it's like, the advice of my friends is, like, live underwater for the rest of your life, and not because they don't want me to be out there. [01:43:00] Speaker A: It's because they want to protect me, of course. And when you're in a situation where. [01:43:04] Speaker D: It'S like I'm connected to something bad. [01:43:07] Speaker A: That happened, I'm not the doer of the bad thing. Yeah, I'm connected to it. [01:43:13] Speaker D: And you want people who have been. [01:43:16] Speaker A: Hurt or wounded to have the space. [01:43:18] Speaker D: You want them to be able to express themselves, and you want to give. [01:43:21] Speaker A: Them all that space, and you want to witness that and listen to it. [01:43:24] Speaker D: And do what you can to help. And then a year passes and two. [01:43:28] Speaker A: Years passes and four years pass, and. [01:43:31] Speaker D: You kind of feel like, what do I do here? [01:43:34] Speaker A: Do I say anything? [01:43:35] Speaker D: And you want to be really respectful. [01:43:38] Speaker A: Of the space that people deserve to have to express themselves. And also you want to kind of find your way to not diminish that or take away from that, but kind of eke your way back into normality for yourself after really having a lot of reflection and a lot of time. And I try and be very thoughtful. I talk about it because I don't want to redirect and being like, hey, look at us over here, and look. [01:44:02] Speaker D: At this bad stuff because there's serious. [01:44:05] Speaker A: Conversations that have happened and continue to. [01:44:07] Speaker D: Happen to address things. [01:44:11] Speaker A: And at the same time, it's like. [01:44:13] Speaker D: Hey, I don't want to ignore it. If people want to talk about it. [01:44:17] Speaker A: I'm here to talk about it. I'll totally there to talk about it as I have through the years. [01:44:21] Speaker D: And also I want to move forward in my life. [01:44:27] Speaker A: And I felt like while I was building this great business, I was doing. [01:44:30] Speaker D: Really good, and I was able to. [01:44:32] Speaker A: Help my parents, and I was able to do these things. I just felt that who I am. [01:44:36] Speaker D: As a person was gone, and I. [01:44:39] Speaker A: Was just a shell of a human being that was going because also there's kind of, like, unaddressed trauma. [01:44:43] Speaker D: I hadn't worked through things going on. [01:44:46] Speaker A: Your podcast, and you kind of giving me an elbow, like, hey, man, it's okay. Come talk for a little bit. And it was so casual and so. [01:44:52] Speaker D: Relaxed, and you really working with me. [01:44:56] Speaker A: On kind of working with how I wanted it presented and also working with me, like, when I'm like, how many numbers. It's like, you're not being weird about it. No, you understand. It was such a difference maker. It set me up to do this podcast. It set me up to do change, and it really allowed me to position myself back into a space where it's. [01:45:13] Speaker D: Like, hey, I just want to move. [01:45:16] Speaker A: Forward in my life. And I am so appreciative of you, and I've always appreciated you as just a person in the world, think you do cool things, you're an interesting guy, you do a cool podcast. [01:45:25] Speaker D: But it was just such a, such. [01:45:28] Speaker A: A thing for you to do that. [01:45:30] Speaker D: Frankly, nobody was like, you know what. [01:45:32] Speaker A: We should have on our podcast? We should go get a ram, or, you know, we should interview a ram. Nobody was doing that at that point. It was a massive thing for me. So I just want to take the time to really clearly unpack that. [01:45:42] Speaker D: And thank you for really bringing me. [01:45:45] Speaker A: Back into, helping me get back on my feet. [01:45:47] Speaker C: Yeah, I have no words. [01:45:50] Speaker B: Besides, I'm very glad that I can be that for you. [01:45:54] Speaker C: And that's exactly the type of conversations. [01:45:59] Speaker B: That you can have. [01:46:00] Speaker C: And it wasn't like that was obviously. [01:46:03] Speaker B: The reason or impetus for me to reach out to you. [01:46:05] Speaker C: It was just, like I said, I. [01:46:07] Speaker B: Find value in you as a human. I think your experience with everything that you have done is incredibly interesting. And that was the end of the conversation as far as why I wanted to have you. And just the fact that all of. [01:46:17] Speaker C: These, the butterfly effect of, like, oh. [01:46:21] Speaker B: Where the wings turn into a tsunami. [01:46:24] Speaker C: Across the world or whatever, all of. [01:46:27] Speaker B: Those things to pull you back into, just like, yeah, this is the world that you have attached yourself to, and you've provided a lot of value in, and it's just like having the rug pulled out from underneath you. And then fortunately, you having to go through all of the difficult things that you went through to ultimately emerge of. [01:46:42] Speaker C: Being like, now I'm a person that. [01:46:48] Speaker B: Has gone through something. Not saying that you've never prior to that, but just like, being able to pick all of these pieces up and be like, okay, yeah, I can be. [01:46:57] Speaker C: Here, and it is an important place. [01:46:59] Speaker B: For me to still exist in and bring value to. [01:47:02] Speaker C: And I think that's just whether or. [01:47:05] Speaker B: Not I was able to articulate that of wanting you on the podcast. But it was just. I just felt that compulsion where I was like, oh, I want you on here. And just because I find all of. [01:47:17] Speaker C: Those things interesting about you. [01:47:19] Speaker A: Thank you. I appreciate that. So now we're heading towards the end of the interview. Are you ready for the crucial three? [01:47:24] Speaker B: Of course I'm ready for the crucial. [01:47:28] Speaker A: I got to think of really. Okay, I have the first one, and this one is just. I'm looking for pure speculation. [01:47:34] Speaker D: Totally. Part of it's going to be based. [01:47:36] Speaker A: On the patterns that you've seen, but part of it is just going to be like gut feeling. [01:47:39] Speaker C: Yes. [01:47:40] Speaker A: Business of podcasting. What does it look like? Five years, ten years and 15 years out. [01:47:44] Speaker B: So I think the technological barriers that you spoke of previously, I think those will continue to drop to where we obviously don't have a button in our. [01:47:55] Speaker C: Car that says podcasts. [01:47:58] Speaker B: And so radio is going to continue to erode people. It's just a less important part of most people's lives, especially from a generational perspective. There are certain aspects of it that create value, but for the most part, young people obviously don't interact with the radio at all. So I think as those technological barriers. [01:48:18] Speaker C: Continue to erode, more and more people. [01:48:23] Speaker B: Are going to engage with podcasts, not only from a news perspective, entertainment, it is the only medium, because whatever, obviously people look at AI and remember when we were all going to live in virtual reality? Obviously that didn't happen. I mean, there's some version of it, but yeah. [01:48:40] Speaker C: So the fact that podcasting has latched. [01:48:43] Speaker B: On and has stayed and has only grown larger. So I think it's going to continue. People are going to make investments. People are still like, I would compare to a grade level perspective, I would. [01:48:56] Speaker C: Say podcasting is probably maybe like fifth or 6th grade. They know how to tie their shoes. [01:49:01] Speaker B: Roughly speaking, as an industry, but it's not as evolved as obviously, like radio and television. [01:49:07] Speaker C: So in five to ten to 15. [01:49:09] Speaker B: Years, it's only going to become larger. We have no clue where the ceiling is until we see that ceiling, until. [01:49:16] Speaker C: We see the plateau of it, then. [01:49:19] Speaker B: We'Ll probably be able to more accurately explain where it's like, okay, this is as popular as television was for whatever, the final episode of Mash, where half of the entire nation tuned into it or whatever. We're going to see what that looks like from a mainstream perspective, or if it's going to be that completely valuable and nichified audience where it's like, I don't care what you're interested in, you're going to find a podcast about that. [01:49:45] Speaker C: That you're going to dive deep to, and it's going to be your favorite. [01:49:48] Speaker B: Thing of all time. And every ad that travels in there is going to be the most meaningful thing you've ever heard. [01:49:52] Speaker C: That's where I think we are heading. [01:49:55] Speaker B: From an overall business perspective. [01:49:58] Speaker D: I want someone to do a podcast. Only about 7 seconds. [01:50:03] Speaker B: You can obviously start it tomorrow. [01:50:05] Speaker A: I'm not starting it. It's too much work. I want to listen. All right, question number two. [01:50:09] Speaker B: Yes. [01:50:10] Speaker A: So I was at the indecision 30th. [01:50:14] Speaker D: Anniversary shows over the weekend, and I. [01:50:16] Speaker A: Was talking to Kyle Whitlow from Ravelry. And we were both laughing because we. [01:50:20] Speaker D: Were like, we both did record labels that got to a certain point and. [01:50:26] Speaker A: Then wrapped up our record label because you hit this point where you're like, I've got a real job. How do I keep this going and how do I make decisions? [01:50:37] Speaker D: And I don't necessarily like dealing with. [01:50:38] Speaker A: Bands and all of this stuff. [01:50:40] Speaker D: We were laughing because we're like, man. [01:50:42] Speaker A: Dave Mandel has just built out of sterner stuff, man. He's been doing indecision for 30 years. Powered through it the highs, but do the lows. [01:50:52] Speaker D: He powered through it. [01:50:52] Speaker A: And I think if anything, the label is, like more viable now than ever. Like tons of bands from tons of different places, different styles. [01:51:00] Speaker D: It's just a loved label. But it wouldn't have been, it would. [01:51:04] Speaker A: Have faded to the background just like react and to some degrees, like Ravelry. [01:51:09] Speaker D: Had he not powered through it. [01:51:11] Speaker A: So if you think about all the. [01:51:13] Speaker D: Podcasts that are coming up, people are interested in it. [01:51:16] Speaker A: Maybe they're doing it now where they want to do it, but they hit that point where they're like, maybe at like episode 76 or episode 232 and they're like, oh, this is so much. What advice do you have for someone to help them power through? [01:51:31] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, just adjust, because if. [01:51:36] Speaker B: You are communicative to your audience and you're just like, hey, so we're going to take a month off. We're going to take two months off, or we're only going to publish one episode a month or whatever it is. [01:51:45] Speaker C: That can get you to refill. [01:51:47] Speaker B: Because if you don't care about your. [01:51:49] Speaker C: Idea anymore, obviously that's not your North Star, you should probably shift. [01:51:54] Speaker B: You should probably think about it differently. But if it's just a matter of, like, timing, like, oh, my gosh, there's. [01:52:01] Speaker C: So much work, whatever, that's fine. Communicate the expectation. [01:52:07] Speaker B: The moment that you do that, your audience, yes, of course, it may diminish in some capacity, but as long as you are public about it, then people will adjust and understand that it's like. [01:52:18] Speaker C: Oh, okay, I'll just be getting less. [01:52:21] Speaker B: Of this, and that's fine. And maybe they'll be like, I'll donate via PayPal to whatever. You never know where that decision can make. But as long as you are. Because, I mean, Dave, as much as he's done with indecision, there were literal years where he'd put out one record. [01:52:35] Speaker C: At the very most because he was. [01:52:37] Speaker B: Pursuing his photography career. He was doing all these other things. And I think that's what most people. [01:52:42] Speaker C: When you're in the middle of it. [01:52:44] Speaker B: You don't realize what people are paying attention to on the outside. And while indecision wasn't as vital of a label in the 2010s as it. [01:52:51] Speaker C: Is now or as it was in the early 2000s, that doesn't mean that. [01:52:55] Speaker B: Dave obviously washed his hands of it. It was just a matter of like, oh, of course, he's not a public person, so he's not going to put this diatribe on his website being like, I'm releasing less records, so expect this to wind down, whatever. [01:53:08] Speaker C: But you can do that with a podcast. [01:53:10] Speaker B: And so I think that whatever creative process you're going through or creative exercise you're going through, as long as you're open about it being like, oh, we're playing less shows. We're doing this, we're doing that. People are going to follow along and be okay. Like, I'll just be able to wait. [01:53:23] Speaker C: For it to return, or I will. [01:53:26] Speaker B: Heavily invest in the thing while it's. [01:53:28] Speaker C: Around for this indeterminate amount of time. [01:53:32] Speaker D: Great. [01:53:33] Speaker A: Amazing answer. [01:53:34] Speaker D: And, Mandel, I love you. [01:53:35] Speaker A: You're the best. Thank you for indecision records. All right, last question. Now, you know, usually I ended on music question. I am going to end on one with you, but since the 90s are back. Everyone loves the 90s. [01:53:46] Speaker D: Everyone love the three most vital, important, incredible emo bands. [01:53:56] Speaker B: Okay. [01:53:56] Speaker A: From the don't mean the modern emo. I mean, like, what you and I. [01:54:02] Speaker B: Noticed, right, the midwestern emo. [01:54:04] Speaker C: Sure. [01:54:04] Speaker D: So what are the three? If you were going to say? These are my top ones that you got to check out. [01:54:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Obviously we'll go with slightly deeper cuts. So to be. I'll be a little Orange county specific on two of them, just because. So there was band from this area. [01:54:21] Speaker C: Which has the most quintessential emo name. [01:54:24] Speaker B: Well, actually, both of them do, but. [01:54:26] Speaker C: One was called swing set in June. [01:54:30] Speaker B: And you'll laugh at this one, too. [01:54:32] Speaker C: The other one was called 100 words for snow. [01:54:35] Speaker A: I've heard of the second one. Yes. [01:54:37] Speaker B: So swingset in June comprised of members from, like, 18 visions. And I'm trying to think of who else played, but basically, like every orange. [01:54:46] Speaker C: County hardcore band, adamantium, it was there. [01:54:50] Speaker B: Short lived, probably about eight songs. I wore out the tape. It was so much fun. They played regional shows like never toured or anything like that. [01:55:00] Speaker C: Just the exact perfect distillation of what. [01:55:04] Speaker B: Emo was in the late 90s, where it was elements of, like, long drawn. [01:55:08] Speaker C: Out mineral influence, some catchy kid of kid stuff. But for the most part, perfect emo. Same thing could be said. About 100 words versus now existed around. [01:55:17] Speaker B: This area, I'm fairly certain. The most notable thing they did was they released a split with impel split seven inch. But I only saw them maybe two or three times. But it was right in that early. [01:55:30] Speaker C: When you're going through the transition phase. [01:55:31] Speaker B: Of being like, oh, I'm allowed to listen to music that isn't screaming. They were a band that I saw locally where I was like, oh, this is really cool. And they weren't even exactly like punk or hardcore kids per se. [01:55:42] Speaker C: They just were heavily emo dudes. [01:55:45] Speaker B: So loved that seven inch. They only released. Yeah, that split and then a seven inch beautiful white cover, white vinyl, of course. [01:55:53] Speaker C: The third one is a band I will pull from Long island called Inside. So they released. [01:56:00] Speaker B: They put out records, odly enough, on a southern California record label called Redwood Records. They put out a couple seven inches and then a full length. [01:56:09] Speaker C: They came out here. [01:56:10] Speaker B: I saw them with Elliot at Cous cafe, probably 1998 or something like that. They were like just completely unassuming looking human beings. Just beautiful, operatic stuff, like over the top melodies. A little post hardcore influence. But if you bring them up in any Long island circle, they'll be, oh, yeah, yeah, inside, dude. They're like, how the hell do you know about that? I'm like, well, because the record label was in stone, California. I saw them once. But just an amazing band. [01:56:38] Speaker C: They're full length, I'm fairly certain is. [01:56:40] Speaker B: Not on any stream, I mean, streaming on YouTube, but it's called my funeral. Just a beautiful, beautiful record. [01:56:45] Speaker C: So there's some deep cuts. [01:56:47] Speaker A: Hell yeah, man. Awesome. All right, so as we're closing off, any last words? Anything you want to share? [01:56:52] Speaker B: I appreciate your love for my podcast. I appreciate you having me on here. I appreciate you for everything that you're putting out in the world from that perspective, not only with your bands, but, yeah, I'm excited that we could do this. And yeah, if you want to listen. [01:57:07] Speaker C: To my podcast, you can do that. [01:57:09] Speaker B: At her words or less and follow me on instagram. I'm really proud that I've been x. [01:57:13] Speaker C: Purpose x since I was 15 years old. [01:57:16] Speaker D: That's pretty good. [01:57:17] Speaker B: I've never changed it. And there was a band from New. [01:57:19] Speaker C: Jersey called X Purpose X that I. [01:57:22] Speaker B: Excitedly got emails for in the early years of when I was singing and taken. [01:57:27] Speaker C: And I thought they were interviews for taken, but they were interviews for X Purpose. [01:57:30] Speaker B: And I was so bummed. I was like, oh, damn it. [01:57:32] Speaker A: And then they wanted to just become purpose. [01:57:34] Speaker C: They did. [01:57:35] Speaker B: They dropped the X's because I think. [01:57:36] Speaker A: They sold out and they put out that record. Art is a weapon. [01:57:39] Speaker B: Exactly. [01:57:40] Speaker A: And then that guy went into, what is the singer? He went to a great band that was on. [01:57:48] Speaker B: It. Didn't they do? No, that was the silent majority. It was like red. Simply red or something like that. [01:57:54] Speaker A: No, that blood red. [01:57:55] Speaker C: Blood red. Thank you. [01:57:56] Speaker A: That was Tommy's next band. [01:57:57] Speaker C: That was brother, which was great. Yeah. [01:57:59] Speaker A: They went into this other band who was like, oh, it sounds like Dagnasty. Sounded nothing like Dagnasty, but was sick. [01:58:05] Speaker B: Right? [01:58:06] Speaker A: Was still great. Two records, one on Dog House and one on some other label. [01:58:10] Speaker D: And both were unbelievable. [01:58:11] Speaker C: Okay. [01:58:12] Speaker A: Better than purpose. [01:58:13] Speaker C: Yes. [01:58:14] Speaker A: Anyways, yes. [01:58:15] Speaker B: At Xpurposex, you can follow me on any social media platform. I'm just proud that I've been very consistent about that. [01:58:20] Speaker D: Congratulations. [01:58:21] Speaker B: Thank you. [01:58:21] Speaker A: All right, everyone, this it for another episode of one step beyond. And you know what? Keep on keeping on, everyone. [01:58:27] Speaker D: We'll talk to you soon. [01:58:29] Speaker B: One step, one step, one step beyond.