Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: There's always pressure, business pressure, to go, hey, if you cut some corners or you kind of relax your standards, you can make more money and you can put out more records. But then I'd have to, like, be one of those mediocre pressing plants. I don't. What's the glory of running a pressing plant that everyone else can do the same thing. And then I'm just, I'm just focused on price and, you know, trying to compete on price. And I don't want to be that person. I'd rather, you know, make less money, make the best records in the world. And, you know, people will come, they'll find us, because, you know, there's always records that people put out that have to be perfect. And I feel like we're always amongst that discussion, and that makes us super psyched about coming in every day.
[00:00:45] Speaker B: That was a clip from today's guest, everyone. Welcome back to the show. You know, there's, in my journey of playing in music and also, like, business and stuff, there's all these people who kind of weave in and out of influencing me. And sometimes it's like someone in the community or politics, and sometimes it's a business person, and sometimes it's someone from the punk scene who's also a business person. And today's guest had a lot of influence on me indirectly. It's not someone I ever met before, but from the bands that they played in to the record labels they've done, to the pressing plant that they've. That they've built up, all of those things have been things that I've interacted with without actually knowing who was behind them, the person behind them. And it was just by, like, a total twist of fate that I ended up being like, oh, that's who that person is. And the more I looked into them, the more I kind of learned about their career path and just, like, their creative path, I was super interested, like, how I really want to talk to this person. So real happy accident that it landed this way. And also a reminder of just, like, what a huge impact people can have without even knowing you. Like, you cannot know someone directly, and the things that you do, the things that you're involved in can resonate with so many people in ways that you don't even expect, including some, like, you know, awkward punk kid in Calgary, Alberta, who, uh, you know, found a bunch of records and a bunch of record labels that changed his life. So with that, uh, please, you know, check this one out. I think it's real useful for everyone. And then subscribe. Great review. All that good stuff. My name is Aram Arslanian, and this is one step beyond Eric, welcome to the show.
[00:02:41] Speaker A: Hello. Thanks for having me.
[00:02:43] Speaker B: You bet. All right, so I am super stoked on this interview. You and I had a little bit of fun early on, just talking about old band stuff and the influence it had on me. But for the uninitiated, for those who don't know, who are you and what do you do?
[00:02:59] Speaker A: So my name is Eric Astor. I am part owner of a company called Furnace Record Pressing. I've been doing that for 28 years, and before that and kind of still doing it, I've been playing in bands. I've owned record labels, distribution company.
You know, just been in the music scene in one shape or the other for, you know, since I was like 14 or 15.
And, yeah, I guess it started in the, you know, the mid eighties. I got turned on to punk rock from my sister, actually. She just kind of gave me a black flag tape, and I was like, holy shit. You know, I was listening to some, a lot of rock and roll, but also, you know, some. Some new wave stuff. And, yeah, it just kind of clicked with me. And then I got into, you know, I was already into skateboarding, but then the whole, like, skate punk thing kind of came together and started making a lot of sense. So, yeah, like, I just, you know, immediately got involved in, you know, fanzine and, you know, playing music and, you know, one thing led to another and, you know, my first band recorded, and, you know, we put out a tape, so we had, like, a label. It was called Step forward Records. You know, we had, you know, some tapes that we were putting out. And then, you know, the next band I was in, you know, we recorded a record, and we wanted to put it out on vinyl. So, you know, that was, like, the first, you know, actual vinyl record that we put out. And I ended up, like, learning how to do run a small record label. So placing ads in flipside and maximum rock and roll and, you know, you know, contacting other bands and labels and trading records and, you know, so that kind of turned into a t shirt company, too. So we were selling, you know, drug free use shirts. And, you know, that kind of overtook the record label part. And, yeah, then started doing, you know, booking shows in Phoenix and, yeah, so I was kind of doing a whole bunch of stuff. And then in 1993, I decided, I want to get out of Phoenix. And I moved to state college, Pennsylvania, because I had a friend, Juan Carrera, who was from Phoenix, and I was in a band called Fuse with him, which was the band I was in. After wind of change, he had moved to Pennsylvania. And he's like, hey, I'm in a. I'm playing in a band, and I need a drummer, you know. Would you be interested in flying out and checking it out? And I did. I liked it. I met Garrett Rothman, who I think might have been on your podcast, and, you know, Vanessa, who I ended up being in a band with later called Samuel.
And, yeah, so I moved out there. I didn't really know anyone for real. By the time I moved out, Juan had moved to DC. So I just kind of moved in with some people and started playing in a band called Junction. And part of that was starting our record label, Art Monk Construction. And, yeah, so started a label playing in bands right away.
And then, yeah, just years go by, we decided, hey, it's really hard to distribute our records, so why don't we start our own distribution company? So we started a company called Lumberjack Distribution, and we were distributing art monk, but also ten or twelve other labels that were kind of in our position.
And so we ran that for a while. And while I was doing that, we didn't make any money. So I was doing graphic design, and I was helping people produce, make their cds and their vinyl, kind of preparing everything and then helping them send it off to plants to get them made. And I was making way more money doing that than I was running a record label in a distribution company.
Frankly, that was a little bit more my speed. You know, I'm more of a, you know, kind of a production person than a warm and fuzzy a and r guy or, you know, salesperson. So, yeah, so I started furnace record pressing, and we sold the distribution company off to, you know, Doghouse Records, and we moved it out to Toledo, where he continued to run that. And, yeah, we just started furnace. And then, you know, I don't know. Like, I think right when we started, we were brokering cds and vinyl. And then shortly thereafter, like, our vinyl plant that we used for vinyl production, they went out of business. So we were pretty much doing, like, cds and DVD's for music and video and even, like, you know, corporate, you know, government contractors, you know, all kinds of stuff around the DC area. And then in 2008, you know, we had a big record label come to us and say, hey, you know, we're looking for high quality vinyl pressing. You know, that the only audiophile pressing plant in the United States, you know, they have such a long, you know, wait time, you know, can you help us figure this out? And since I already had a background in making, you know, vinyl records, I kind of knew what to do. I went to a company in Germany who was well known and, you know, the audiophile world is making some of the best records in the world. We kind of struck an agreement with them, and we build a packaging facility out here. And so we were importing records from Germany back to the United States. And, you know, we grew rapidly and we were doing all kinds of stuff. I mean, I think the first big project we did was for Metallica.
You know, we did tons and tons of stuff from everyone from, you know, Neil Young to led Zeppelin to flaming lips, black keys, you know, the name names go on and on. And then, you know, mid, I guess, 20 1415, we started to see, you know, really, you know, vinyl just kind of exploded. And it wasn't just like rock guys, like older guys in their basements. It was, you know, people from all walks of life and all ages. And we started to see, you know, color vinyl and, you know, specialty vinyl and all that stuff kind of pop. And we realized, you know, we kind of had to break out and do something more than, you know, what we had been doing, which was brokering. So we decided we were going to build the plant. And it's like the best and worst decision of my life. So, yeah, we built a new pressing facility, 70,000 sqft, you know, bunch of machines, you know, like, you know, something bigger than I had ever been a part of. And, you know, pressed a bunch of records, went through the pandemic, which is a total pain in the ass.
And then in last year, we sold the controlling stake of our company to Metallica, who have been partners with us forever. We've worked with them when they were on Elektra, through Warner, all the way to, you know, when they got their masters back and they started their own independent record company, blackened. You know, we were pressing all of the records for them since 2013 or so, and so we always had a very good relationship with them and their management company. And, you know, they came to us and said, hey, how can we help you?
You know, help us more? And we said, I said, hey, you should invest.
Because, you know, even though the company was doing quite well and final was just more popular than ever, you know, there's just a lot of, a lot of pressure being a single owner company.
You know, I didn't go to business school. I don't know what the hell I'm doing. So I just thought, hey, you know, we should. We should bring on a partner that we can trust that can help us get through the next ten years.
We started a partnership, and it's been great. It's been a year.
In addition to that, I also have another record label called music, and I have a vinyl cleaning and storage accessory business called vinyl style. Those are two different, you know, stories to tell, but. So I got my hands in a lot of things and super busy, and, yeah, I've been.
Can't believe I've been doing this. The furnace is celebrating our 28th anniversary. 28th anniversary next. Next month. And, yeah, I've been doing this for almost 40 years. It's crazy.
[00:12:53] Speaker B: Let's dive into it. Was it too far to say you had an accidental career in music?
[00:12:58] Speaker A: Totally.
Yeah, I mean, I was never a great student.
I'm just. That wasn't my thing.
I always just like to make shit.
When I was young, my mom worked at a company that did, like, you know, kind of brand research. You know, they would bring, like, products to, you know, like a. You know, like a school or something and let kids, like, taste different things, and they would get there, like a market research company, basically. So she would be bringing back, like a lemonade, like those big tubs of powdered lemonade. So I started a lemonade stand because I wanted, you know, money to buy candy, I guess, when I was young, and. And then after that, I was, like, painting addresses on curbs for, you know, like, when I was 1011 to buy, you know, be able to pay for my video game addiction. So, yeah, so I've always been hustling and, you know, when I got into playing music, you know, just everything just kind of escalated quickly and, you know, it's just all about doing stuff and making things and figuring stuff out. That's always been something that's appealed to me and fascinated me.
[00:14:27] Speaker B: Yeah, there's something about punk and hardcore, and I don't want to say that this doesn't exist for, like, other genres. I just haven't been part of other genres to talk about it. But there's something about punk and hardcore, especially discovering it pre Internet, where you stumble into this little space that, like, is like, you're part of culture, but you're also creating the culture as it goes. And at that. Especially at that time, it's small enough that, like, it's not just like a drop in a pond, you know, like nobody's gonna notice it. It's like, actually, like a thing.
What you did in the beginning of it, you were like, basically like, a serial entrepreneur until you found a culture that you could kind of hang your shingle up on and then just go from there. So, like, you know, you had lemonade stand, you had your, like, curb painting with the addresses on it. But you find punk and hardcore and you get into bands and you start fanzines and records labels. Tell me about starting, especially like, step forward records, which, like, I like that you talked about the t shirts out of it. Often bootlegged, never replicated t shirts. Tell us about, like, starting step forward and how that happened and just like, like, what that did to your life.
[00:15:37] Speaker A: You know, I was in a band. The first band I was in with, like, jim Wall was youth under control, which is like a straight edge band of a bunch of people just learning how to play their instruments. So I think it was Jim, myself, and Jason. And we went to, you know, went on to play in wind of change later. But so we were playing, you know, we had like a good board tape from, you know, some show and, hey, we should release this on tape. So, you know, I think.
I think we, we roped in maybe the band desecration and last option. I don't quite remember what the first tape was, but, you know, we put that out. We advertise the maximum rock and roll and, um, yeah, it was just fun, you know, where I was meeting just tons of people and, you know, just having pen pals and, you know, back in the day, that was what it was all about. You, like, learned, you know, what was going on in other parts of the country, you know, through pen pals and, you know, the monthly maximum rock and roll issue or whatever. So that was just like the building the community part, which I thought was really fun and interesting. And, you know, we were kind of sheltered in Arizona. There wasn't a whole lot of culture going on in Arizona at the time.
There's a lot of shows, but I'd never been to the east coast. I didn't know what was going on up in Michigan, hardcore or any of that stuff. So it was just like fun to reach out and communicate with those folks.
So, yeah, that was just fun. And then when the opportunity came to actually put out a real record and go to the pressing plant and the whole thing, it was a fun project and allowed me to expand on what we were doing with the tapes and the fanzine. So that's just kind of how we got started. It was just like, I have a band, I want to put it out. I want people to hear it. How are we going to do that, and back then, there's only a handful of people really doing it.
You learned a lot from discord and touch and go and some of the other labels that had started shoestring budgets and really diy, and you'd read interviews from Ian and Jeff and Corey and other people that were doing it, and he just said, all right, if they can do it, I can do it. I remember when I first started playing drums, I had a drum teacher who was in, like, a, you know, kind of a hair rock band, you know, and super glam, really good drummer, but, you know, it's just cookie cutter glam rock kind of thing. And I remember we put out our first record, and I showed it to him. He's like, wait a second. How'd you do that?
I just.
Just did it. I just went to the pressing plant down the street and we record it. He's like, you know, because they're the. They had, you know, they had, like, all this equipment, and they would play these shows, and, you know, they didn't have a record out. He was just blown away that we not only had a record out, but that, you know, he would, you know, he came into my room where my drum set was, and there was just, like, you know, tons of mail order packages, and, you know, I had my little desk that had all the stuff, and he was just totally blown away that, you know, that that part of the music industry, there was gatekeepers, and there was people telling you what you could do, and they were in charge of your destiny. And I was like, you know, none of that shit matters, man. Just go record. Put out your own record and send it out. Who cares? It just never even dawned on them. So it was just that kind of community of just do it yourself. Like, you know, you want to go and paint curbs, just go buy some stencils and go do it.
You know, it's just that that was just the way that I was brought up, so it was second nature. It wasn't like I discovered really anything. It was just kind of an extension as to how I lived my life. And I was always scrapping, so might as well do it for in the music industry, too.
[00:19:56] Speaker B: Totally. You already had that entrepreneur kind of, like, make it happen attitude. It just gave you a place to put that energy. Real specific, though, because step forward became kind of unintentionally a thing. Again, we'll go to the t shirts. It's very well known for the t shirts. Legendary, highly sought after t shirts, but also the releases that unit pride, seven inch is literally one of my favorite seven inches of all time.
What was it like just being a kid and actually having, to a degree, like, a viable business where you have people, like, sending you tons of mail order? Like, how did you manage that? What did you, what did you do?
[00:20:36] Speaker A: Um, I mean, I just did it, you know, cut cardboard, put records in cardboard, and send it out. It was really easy. I mean, I didn't really think of it as a business because I didn't make any money. It was more of just, like. It was just fun. I didn't have a business. I didn't really know how to make money. And in punk rock back then, it was kind of looked at as, like, you're a sellout if you made money. So we mail ordered our seven inches for $3. And, like, I think I made maybe a quarter a record, you know, which, you know, when you factor in your time, you're losing quite a bit of money. If you were to put all that time into a minimum wage job, you know, I'd be making way more money, like scooping ice cream, than I would be running a record label back then. But it was just fun, you know, and, you know, I remember I came home from school every day, I go to my mailbox, and I'd have, like, you know, a stack of mail, and, you know, I'd be pulling singles out of every envelope, you know, sending stuff to people. So it was just kind of fun.
There's a couple people that would come over and help me fill mailers and package stuff up, and I printed all the shirts in my garage and dried them in my oven. That's why they all fell apart really quick. If you washed them a few times, they would start to wash out. Sometimes everything was very diye, you know, just trying to keep the prices down and stuff. So it was weird how many people hated on people that were doing stuff. Cause, you know, Jason from wind of change, he had a fanzine, and we had the record label, and other people in the scene were doing things, and, you know, people. I don't know if it was jealousy or is this, like, from maybe people that were in the scene a couple years longer than we had been, you know, kind of going, well, who the fuck are these kids? Why did they get to do this? You know, it was just something we did, and we had a blast doing it.
[00:22:45] Speaker B: Yeah, well, there's a bunch of stuff I want to hit on there that, and one of them, I want to bunt down the line, but that idea in kind of the culture that making money makes you a sellout.
I want to hit on that a little bit down that line. And also the, like, $3.07 inches. So when I was playing, like, when I was really active in bandst, um, seven inches were, like, I don't know, like, $4 or something. And it had been, like, a long time since you've been running step forward. So, like, it had certainly not kept up with, like, how much you'd sell it, hadn't kept up with how much things it cost. But I remember the first band, they were canadian band. They're out on tour, and they started selling their seven inch for $5, and people were like, how dare they sell it for $5. I remember thinking at the time, like, are you crazy? Like, these things should be selling for so much more money. But it was like, the scene, up to a point, was regulating all of that through a lot of people recoiling. How dare you charge more than this for a show or this for a t shirt or this for a band? And I myself was certainly part of that mindset up until a point where it's like, oh, when I started running a label and doing bands, I was like, oh, no, actually, I understand the economy behind it, but I want to push that back. I do want to hit on the step forward thing and how it's like, yeah, it was just for fun. And we were like, baking shirts in our oven, all that stuff. Something that you did was a kid that I. I'm gonna be 50 in in August. It's like, oh, yeah. Like, you say step forward records to me, I can totally nerd out about the t shirts, the records, like, how things look like. Like, the design of things. Say that to my next door neighbor. They'll be like, what the hell are you talking about? I've never heard of this before. And not only would they say I've never heard of it before, they probably would be like, you're insane that 50 years old that you're still so stoked on this. I love the idea that someone could just do something, that there was a kid with no intent of starting kind of a business to make money, but just like, oh, yeah, I just want to create something cool and fun, have fun with my friends. But something that simple can resonate for, like, decades and decades and decades later, even as itself is decrepit and falling apart like, the physical product, but then is, like, the sacred item to someone's like, I have the step forward straight edge shirt that's totally, like, drug free youth shirt that's falling apart. I bring it out once a year to show to my friends and then I put it back in its crypt. Like, that's amazing that someone could do that and it could have such a huge impact. Just. Any thoughts on that before we. Before we keep going?
[00:25:16] Speaker A: I mean, I'm a big, like, vinyl is an amazing format, right? So it lasts forever.
You know, there's, you know, the etchings on the inside. Like, who pressed it? Like, what pressing was this? What color is it? You know, which version of the COVID Like, all that stuff is like, super cool. But, yeah, I didn't think, you know, when I was putting out those records back then that, you know, you or anyone else would care about them 35, 40 years later. So it blows my mind. But there has been this renaissance of straight edge, emo, punk rock, whatever from that time. That is pretty incredible. I mean, I've been to a couple shows recently where, you know, it's people my age, I'm 52, and, you know, it's people around my age. And then all of a sudden, like, two thirds of the crowd are like, teenagers and early twenties, and I'm like, how the hell did you even hear of this band? Right? So, yeah, it's pretty crazy. And, you know, getting back to this whole, like, cost of a seven inch, I remember the first, like, I remember when revelation hit and they charged $3.50 and everyone was up in arms and I was like, as the guy that was like, doing mail order, I was like, $0.50.
They're just going to get a bunch of quarters and they.
Quarters are going to fall through the envelope and get lost, and then people are going to know there's money in there, so they're going to steal. I was like, from a logistics standpoint, I was like, the $0.50 doesn't make any sense. It should be three or $4, right? You don't want to be sending quarters through the mail, but. Yeah, no, it's just funny because I remember, I think it was Henry Rollins at some point.
I hope I'm not getting this wrong, but they're basically talking about indie labels and stuff. And people were like, when he put out something on imago or. I don't. I don't remember what label, but it wasn't like a, you know, sst or something. He. He said something like, the only labels I've ever been ripped off of, ripped off from are indie labels. Like. Like, I've never been paid by any indie label. So if you're an artist and you want a tour and, you know, you're going to take a month off from working and stuff. I mean, we all have bills to pay, right? So I don't think there's anything wrong with making a little bit of money. And, you know, like, I remember a lot of people really got down on Zach, and when he, when he got in rage against the machine and, you know, he blew up and made a ton of money. And I was like, wait a second. Like, this is a guy that's basically singing about what every punk band had been singing about and trying to, like, you know, enlighten people as to, you know, what's really going on in the world. And he's actually preaching to millions of people, and we're preaching to hundreds, maybe thousands. Like, if we're real, if we're doing this to kind of, like, better the world or spread the message or whatever, like, there's nothing better than playing in front of 10,000, 12,000 people a night and preaching from the stage, like, you know, the politics that were important to us. So. So as I grew older and I realized what was going on, I was like, hey, if you can do things the right way and be good and not rip people off and make some money while you're at it, and what's wrong with that?
[00:28:52] Speaker B: You talked about at one point, I was like, I wasn't really making a lot of money. You'd run multiple record labels. You'd done fanzines, you had this distribution thing, and then you realized, you know, I could actually make a lot more money on the production side of this, which is what led you to starting starting furnace. So tell us about that. Like, learning how to essentially, like, make money and do the do do like, a good job ethically of, like, making money in music through the production side and then into the record label or into the pressing plant. Cause I love to hear that part of it.
[00:29:29] Speaker A: So the whole idea of furnace kind of started because I knew how to use pagemaker one and, like, early Photoshop and illustrator. I had one of the first Apple computers and, you know, had been, you know, kind of toying around on that for a long time and did all the flyers of all the shows that I booked and, you know, fanzine layouts and all this stuff, like, really early on on Mac computer. So, you know, when, when page maker came along, that was before indesign and cork everybody. But that was, you know, I knew how to do that, and I knew how to get film made and proofs done, and I knew how to, you know, so just from doing a label, I learned all that, that whole process. And before that, I was doing, like, ruby lift separations and, you know, type, like, the rub off letters and all that stuff. So. So I understand design enough mechanically to get all that stuff done. And, you know, at the time, I was, you know, 23, and I didn't like living in my warehouse anymore, and I didn't like showering in my kitchen.
You know, there's just certain things that you're like, maybe I aspire to have a car that works every time I turn it on. Stuff like that. So, you know, when I said, oh, wow, I can make a lot more money, it was like, no, I could, like, get a modern day car and have a room at a, you know, in a group house that, you know, has hot water. Like, that was kind of my thinking at the time. And I knew what labels were paying to get things made. I think they were all getting ripped off, you know, and back then, there was customer service was terrible at all these plants. So I thought, well, listen, I can. I have a lot of volume. You know, I'll get preferential treatment. I'll be able to give these folks better pricing than if they went directly. And, you know, they get to, you know, they get to deal with me as opposed to someone that doesn't give a shit. So, you know, that's really just bare bones. How I started it. Like, a couple years before, we had a bookkeeper come into lumberjack, and they're like, well, how much do you marking stuff up? And I was like, 25%. They're like, you cannot make money marking things up 25%. They kind of wrote down all the stuff, and they. They showed us, like, you know, because we were doing everything on consignment, so cash flow was always pretty good, but they basically ran, like, a report, and they're like, you are losing money. I'm like, ugh. Oh, shit. Like, you have to mark things up more. So, you know, we just really started. You know, I never really thought about that. I just thought about, like, if I had money in the bank, like, we're doing well.
So, you know, I just kind of learned along the way because, again, I didn't go to business school. I didn't really have a background in all of it. So you just kind of took that lesson, and I transferred it to what I was doing at furnace. And that's kind of like, the progression from not knowing, doing things the punk rock way to learning a little bit and actually saying, okay, I need to actually have decent profit margins, and I'm going to have people that work for me and I have to make sure that I account for that and an office space and all that stuff. You know, I was learning along the way. And if I went to business school, I would be where I am now, like, 15 years ago. But I just kind of, like, you know, chipped away at it over and over and through the years and just, you know, kind of learned things. And fast forward to, like, I think it was like, 2015. I got introduced to the owner of this company called Shinola, who, you know, he had started the company fossil watches, and he, he started this, you know, watch company made in the US and Detroit. And he wanted to get into, like, making turntables and, you know, audio products, like, as part of the product line, and flew me out to his facility in Detroit. I was totally blown away. And he's like, hey, can you help me build this turntable? And I was like, sure. I don't. I can figure it out. And I learned so much through that process because I realized, like, even people that have lots and lots of money and have billionaire investors and all this stuff, they really don't know what the fuck they're doing. They're just, like, making it up as they go. So, you know, I'm sitting down, they're like, okay, let's build some projections. And they just start putting numbers on. I'm like, where'd you get that? They're like, you need to aspire to. You got to live up to what you put on the paper. That's the only way. If you don't have goals, you can't do. So I was just like, this is really like, everyone's just making it up. No one knows really what the fuck they're doing.
At that time, I was like, if these guys who have all the money in the world, they're just making it up. I can build this pressing plant. So it's really just been a bunch of experiences like that that have allowed me to figure out business and kind of eke my way into these different things.
[00:34:39] Speaker B: I have a question, though. You said if I'd had, like, an MBA or went to business school, I would have been where I'm at 15 years earlier. Do you really think that because my perspective would be, just because you have a formal education in something doesn't mean you're actually better at doing something. In fact, it might make you more risk adverse?
[00:35:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I think I've always been very risk adverse. And when I say that, I think that I've been super conservative, and the moves that I've made, they've always been very educated decisions. So I can look back at all the things that I've done, and some people are like, whoa, vinyl in 2008. Why did you get into it then? Well, I knew. I knew that industry. I knew the culture. I knew that it was coming back, like, way before a lot of people did.
I don't know. I just feel like from the money side of things and just the structure side of things, I think I've always been.
I think I would have done the same thing because I just feel like that's just in my bones. But I think I could have built structures faster and positioned myself a little differently, quicker. But you're right, I could have also, like, totally failed and become more aggressive in things and, you know, failed harder, faster. But I don't know. I guess, you know, we'll never know. But, you know, there's. There's just things that I've learned along the way that I wish I knew, you know, earlier.
[00:36:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, so I have a business that I started about eight years ago, and I wish I understood some of the, like, how you run a business side of things. Like, you know, you said, like, numbers and projections and accounting and, like, all of that kind of stuff. I wish I just understand the pragmatics of how to do it. But the. I'd say, like, I was so blissfully ignorant about anything when I started this company. And part of. Part of that ignorance is what made me, like, totally willing to take a risk and be more daring. And maybe if I'd known more, I would have been too conservative in my moves. We're different industries, for sure, but, like, I always kind of looked at my lack of business background as being, like, a real blessing for me until it wasn't where I was, like, I don't know. I don't know what a spreadsheet is. What do I. What do I do with this?
[00:36:58] Speaker A: You know, we all come from this DIY punk rock thing that was all, like, it just seemed so genuine, you know? And, you know, you. You had a band. You played. People liked you. They didn't. You went on tour, you put out records. They sold. They didn't. So I always, you know, like, there was always like this in my mind. Like, business was like, you had a product that people wanted.
There's a lot of value add to it. You did the best you could. You did it with ethics and morals built into that. And I just always looked at everything through that lens. So to see everything just kind of.
I'm not trying to take anything away from Shinola, doing really cool things. And I had a great experience there and the people there, awesome. It was just more of, like, the corporate culture and how, you know, again, it was just like we had never made anything, and I was the only person at the time that knew about turntables or vinyl or anything. So I'm just looking at. Even though I was in my forties at the time, I still looked at myself as a stupid punk kid that was just kind of faking my way through this whole thing. So, you know, it's just weird that they're like, they thought they could build this division of their company dealing with me, who I was like, who the hell am I? You know? So, yeah, it was just very strange. So, you know, you learn. You learn. Then you go, okay, well, I think I have more of a substantial real business and offering than, you know, just coming up with a new division of a company that doesn't even exist yet and thinking that you can get into Saks Fifth Avenue and all these high end places with your turntable.
I was like, well, no, I make vinyl. People respect the company. They know we put out really good products, and I can probably build a plant and be successful.
But it took that experience for me to have a little bit more faith, you know?
Yeah, a little bit more faith in what we were doing and what I. What I had envisioned to actually pull the trigger. And up until that point, I had. I had never really gone into debt. I never really had a loan, you know, so. And, you know, that was, like, the conservative nature of me building a company and running a company is. I was always afraid of debt, and, you know, it. You know, early on, it led to me not getting a lot of work, because I was. I didn't want. I didn't like getting paid late, you know, from some of these. These places. So, anyway, yeah, it is all a bunch of, you know, everyone makes shit up, but I'd rather be on the furnace side of making shit up than the Theranos side of making shit up. And I just feel like there's a lot of groupthink that is involved in this. That is such bullshit. I hate it. The whole, like, you know, stock market and everything is totally made up. It's fake. All of us, we get the scraps. The real people, like, they're making tons of money because they control it all. It's all a big scam. But that's why I think like, making shit. Manufacturing things is one of the last few ethical businesses because everything else is bullshit. It's so. It's so much bullshit. It like what we do, even though it's vinyl, it's like entertainment. It's like making stuff and having people, like, back there running machines and putting stuff together, like, it's a tangible, real cultural thing that we're doing. And I just, you know, I just. I feel good that we're doing this as opposed to, you know, I don't know, pushing numbers around and charging people fees for making or losing their money. And, you know, all that. All that stock market bullshit or banking, finance, like, that's just all a big scam.
[00:40:58] Speaker B: Hell yeah, man.
For me, like, starting a business has never been about, of course it's been about, like, my family and making a living and all that. Doing something I'm interested in. But what I love doing is building stuff. I have always, always, ever since the first band that I was a part of, I liked bringing people together to do something. And, like, my first band fucking sucked because we were little kids and we, like, jammed my parents basement and we stunk. But it wasn't even about the output. It was about doing something with my friends or going on tour or putting out records or any of these things. And now for me, it's like, I want to do things that are cool.
I want to feel like whatever we do from a business perspective is actually good for our clients and makes a difference. But the thing that I really enjoy is, like, I like building a team. I like giving people a good living, good quality of life. I like building things together with the team. Like, I just like working with people. And so, like, it sounds like your thing is like manufacturing, making things, that's that, like, honest, like, something that feels good to use, making things happen. For me, it's about working with people. Like, I love people coming together to do something cool. And it could be packing records in someone's, like, bedroom for like, 3 hours. Or it could be like building a business.
Let's go to furnace, though, specifically, you said you were kind of, like, ahead of the curve, like you knew vinyl was going to come back.
I've asked this to a lot of people who either run record labels or work at pressing plants. What do you think brought people back in North America? Because, again, for the audience, for anyone who doesn't know this, when vinyl died out in the US, it did not die out in Europe. Europe still had a strong vinyl scene. So what do you think brought people back to vinyl. Why did it have this big resurgence?
[00:42:44] Speaker A: Well, you know, it really never died. You know, it was just kind of.
Kind of just went into hibernation. You know, there was all these, you know, there's indie labels and punk labels that were still putting out records. There was, you know, these big mail order companies that were licensing all these great titles that were still putting out, you know, amazing records.
There were still record stores that were doing quite well. And I think, I think it's maybe it's just a reaction to the digital culture. You know, I remember me and a lot of people I knew, they basically, you know, as soon as, like, you could rip cds and put them onto a hard drive, like, everyone was taking their whole collections because, you know, just, like, we would take stuff and put it on tape, vinyl on tape, so we could listen to them in the car. I loved that idea of, you know, putting something in your pocket that had 10,000 songs as opposed to ten, right. But all of a sudden, I think, you know, what happened for me and a lot of other people probably my age was the ritual or process of going to your collection, whether your vinyl or cd, and picking out what you're going to listen to for the day or for the week. That kind of went away, and I started to find that I was listening to less music, like, less of a variety of music than I was before because it just, I would even forget, like, what was in my collection. So you just kind of end up listening to whatever you had, you know, just got or, you know, all the favorites, you know, as opposed to, you know, diving deep into, you know, something a little bit more obscure in your collection. So I feel like, you know, something similar to that was happening. People just wanted, you know, to go away from, like, this music with a little tiny little picture of the COVID You know, that was the listening experience to, holy shit, you know, you actually have, you know, a record jacket with cool graphics and, you know, this whole process of sitting down and listening to an entire record, you know, and not bouncing around listening to music while you're doing yoga or landscaping or driving, you know, necessarily listening to a song here or there. But I just think there's just that for people our age, that's kind of what we were hearing is people like, oh, yeah, I get to sit down and actually focus on the music that I love.
And then for younger people, it was just that had never grown up in the format. It was a discovering tons of cool stuff, like in their parents collection or the records that they could get very cheap, used at record stores and, you know, then the whole pop and, you know, more modern music started to come out on vinyl. And, you know, you. It's no wonder and no surprise to me that Taylor Swift and Olivia Rodrigo and some other people like their stuff does so well because they do such a good job. Like, with the packaging and the whole experience of it, you know, really ties people to, you know, makes you feel a little bit more like you're part of the community and you're. You're, you know, listening to a product that the artist intended, you know, for you to listen to it that way, you know, via vinyl and looking at the packaging and everything. So I just was kind of burned out by the whole digital thing. I still listen to most of my music off my iPhone. I'm not gonna lie. I listen to a lot more podcasts usually. But it was just kind of a reaction to everything being digital and not having anything collectible, to having something collectible again. And that's the other thing that disappeared during the CD age was all of a sudden, like, the collectibility of music, you know, disappeared overnight. You know, everyone's buying cds. Nothing special about cds. So, you know, we know how exciting it was to get, you know, a first pressing of, you know, antidote seven inch or, you know, something like that. And, like, now and then it was like, cds. Everything was just like shit, you know, like perfection, you know, but, like, had no soul and had no, you know, it just wasn't exciting, like, buying cds as it was buying records. So I just think, like, that whole experience when people got a taste of it and started to also go to record stores and feel that there's a community that didn't exist for a lot of people for their entire lives, you know, I think that just kind of changed everything. And, you know, artists getting involved in record store day and, you know, that whole thing coming about and really, like, popularizing that and artists, I don't know, I just think that whole thing kind of came about at the right time, and it. And it just. It just, you know, changed everything in music.
[00:47:58] Speaker B: So why, like, I. Why do people, from your perspective have such a connection to vinyl versus, like, a tape or a cd? So even those physical formats, there are certain tapes that I'm like, oh, totally cherished. I gotta hold onto this forever. And some of them are from bands that people would know, but most of them are from obscure local bands that I got when I was a kid.
And some cds, I guess, people are connected to. But why are people so connected to the vinyl format. And before you answer, I know some people would be like, oh, it's the sound quality. Let's be real. Like, the vast majority of people are not going to notice the difference between a cd and vinyl or whatever, so why are people so connected to it?
[00:48:40] Speaker A: Well, let's dive into the sound thing. There is a. Let's just say there's 15% of the people listen to it because it does sound better. But, yeah, no, I think it's the size of the format. I think it's part of is the ritual. I think when people find out how it's made, I think just, like, the craft of it is pretty amazing. Whereas, like, cds, everything's automated, by the way, I don't know if you've played all the cds that you bought when you were a kid. They're all falling apart. They all oxidize. They fall apart. Vinyl lasts forever. I think it's just. I think it's the ability to do some amazing packaging. Just everything about the look and feel of it is way cooler than a tape or a cd. There's so many people that talk about the ritual, you know, like, I got a really nice espresso machine a couple years ago, and usually I'm all about convenience, but, like, this, the ritual of grinding and blah, blah, blah, super fun, you know, it's like part of my morning, and there's a lot of people that find just joy and you, you know, of the process of playing records, too. So I don't know, I just think it's a mystery to a lot of people. Like, how the fuck does this even work? Like, if you think about it, like, stylists in a groove making music somehow. So, yeah, I just think it's like, it's a very unique product, a very unique format, and I think it's just for a lot of people, they're just blown away that it even works. Like, I still can't tell you how and why it works. I mean, can, but it's just. It's voodoo. It's really cool.
[00:50:18] Speaker B: You did mention it. And, like, if you don't want to go into it, it's totally fine. But if you. If you want to go into the science of why it sounds better, because, like, nothing does sound like vinyl. And I do believe most people, like, most people aren't. That's not what they're there for. But I'd love to hear anything you want to share about why it sounds better.
[00:50:37] Speaker A: Well, I'm not a scientist, but there has been studies about listening to analog music, the way your brain processes analog sound waves versus digital sound waves. There was a study of people listening to the same music digitally versus on vinyl, and their blood pressure went up. When you listen to digital music, it's this. And, you know, it's been described as, like, if you're. If you're near lights like that super, like 5000 kelvin bright white light versus, like, a warm light, like, it just messes with your head. I don't know if it's true. I mean, some scientists say it, say it does, but I definitely, you know, especially when you listen to it on halfway decent equipment. To me, it sounds better. But that said, I listen to most of my music digitally because I'm always on the go and. But when I do get to listen to records, it is a different experience for me.
[00:51:38] Speaker B: So from when you started furnace to now, I mean, there's been a huge shift in the. In the vinyl landscape. What led to, like, for furnace to it being able to, like, really, like, pop? Like, when did the bigger projects, like, major laser label projects start coming in?
[00:51:55] Speaker A: Well, it was basically right when we got back into it in 2008. You know, our first project was, you know, an enormous Metallica box set. It was the black album. Like, first time they remember.
[00:52:07] Speaker B: How did they find you? Like, how did that happen?
[00:52:11] Speaker A: I knew someone at Warner Music Group or at the Time Warner Brothers, and they came to us and said, you know, can you figure this out? Like, we need, you know, we want to. We want to put out the best sounding records in the world, and there's only one plant that can do it. And it was so backed up that, you know, for them to get that project done, it would have taken eleven months.
We were able to turn it around in two. So, you know, and because the record sounded so good and we just knew what we were doing, they started sending us a ton of stuff. So right out of the gate, we were doing just big time artists. And, you know, it allowed us to invest in what we were doing and invest in the systems and the people. And it really was a huge shot in the arm for us because if we tried to do that with small records, small labels, it would have been a huge. There would have been a sizable investment and a longer ramp up to get to the point where we could support ourselves. But having those big customers in the beginning allowed us to, you know, take on small customers as well and support, you know, the facility that we had built for packaging and then, you know, transitioning into building our own plant pressing here in the states.
You know, we had such a diverse clientele that allowed us to, you know, grow.
It was, you know, thanks. Thanks to Warner music, you know, to give us the first shot and then universal and Sony and then all the. All the indies.
I mean, it was someone from, like, an indie background. Like, I really thank the major labels for sending me all that work in the beginning because it allowed us to build what we did.
[00:54:04] Speaker B: And how did you actually, like, build up the plant? Because, like, were you buying presses from, like, old presses basically? Because I don't believe people weren't making presses at the time.
[00:54:14] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So when we started building our plant, there hadn't been a new record press built. Like an automated record press hadn't been built since the early eighties, I think. And the machines that we got, we actually found in this guy in Mexico had them and they had been sitting in a storage garage for 20 plus years, I guess. And they were the same machines that the folks in Germany were making these amazing records on. So we thought it would be a good idea to buy a bunch of dusty old machines in Mexico, send them to the UK to get refurbished and bring them back to the United States. And by the time that whole process was over, people were making new presses again.
So it was kind of.
But I always tell people it was like the best million dollar mistake we ever made because we got to know those machines inside now because we were constantly fixing them and trying to make them run. And then when the company that started to make that same model, but new, we bought a bunch of those presses. We were the only plant in the whole world that actually self installed those presses because we knew the old ones inside and out and we knew every bolt and screw and valve and, you know, bushing that was on those machines. So, you know, so it actually worked out in our favor because, you know, during the pandemic when no one could, like, fly and, you know, come and fix machines, like, we were totally self sufficient. You know, we were killing it through the Trent, through that. That period of time while there's a lot of up and comers that were really having a hard time because they didn't know how to fix machines or set up machines and they couldn't get anyone to come in and do that. So we were very fortunate to have gone through that process of buying those old machines and learning them from the ground up.
[00:56:18] Speaker B: So how did you get like a, like a workforce? Like, you know, you decided to start this thing, you, like, refurbish all these machines? Like, how did you find people to actually, like, do the. The work.
[00:56:30] Speaker A: So when we were mostly doing, like, cd work and had a lot of handwork, you know, we went from trying to hire musicians.
Never, never works out. They went to, like, office temp people to work release to special needs. And then, like, it was just such a. It was so hard to get people to actually do the work and come back day and day out. So we were talking to one of our local printers, and they did a lot of handwork, and I was like, where do you find everyone? Because we just have a hard time. And it's like, oh, you got to talk to, you know, this. This guy. He's like, he runs a temp company, and it's all of, you know, folks from the vietnamese community. So we started hiring from. From his temp agency, and, you know, it was like, honestly, like, if we didn't have that crew of folks, like, I would have never started the pressing plant because it's all intensive hand work and hand assembly, and everything is high touch. And without having an amazing, dedicated workforce, like, you just can't do this work. And we found, you know, great allies and amazing crew members amongst the vietnamese community. And then, you know, we just kind of taught everything ourselves. So, you know, we. We have, you know, Allie Miller, who's now our CEO, she started before vinyl, and she had been in the cd game for a long time, and, you know, she just learned everything she needed to know about vinyl. Mark Ryder, who's our, you know, president of manufacturing, you know, he. He's just a smart guy, and he learned, you know, everything he could throughout the process. So he's now been able to, you know, train and impart wisdom onto everyone that works for us now. And it's not a job for everyone because there's not a lot of people, especially younger people. I don't want to sound like a boomer, but, you know, this kind of work isn't as attractive to younger people. You know, I'm generalizing, but that's just what we found. So, you know, mostly it's, you know, kind of, you know, little older or scrappier. Scrappier young people that do this work. And. And I feel like, you know, the way that we're able to keep a.
An engaged workforce is, like, through our whole lean manufacturing philosophy. And one of those points is tap employee genius and mutual respect. And we have a motto here that best idea wins. So if you come on your first day and you have a good idea and you can save us time, money, or effort, your idea goes into effect immediately. It doesn't have to come down from a manager or anyone. It's like, you know, it's like, you know, you have the best idea. You work, you work the hardest, you do the best job. Like, you're going to be rewarded. So, you know, it's all about, you know, respecting each other. Like, there's, you know, we have, like, a no asshole policy. Like, you just, it's, it's not because I just, I don't want to work around assholes, but it's, it's really about, like, you know, just showing everyone that, you know, we're a team.
I don't use the word family because that's kind of bullshit. Even though I, a lot of people have been with us for a long time and I feel very close to them and I really appreciate them. It's all about like, hey, you're going to, you know, if you're going to come in and, you know, bust your ass for us, then, you know, we're going to treat you the way you deserve to be treated and vice versa. I expect you to have a lot of pride in the company and what you do. And if we all do that and we celebrate each other's wins and help each other out, when we kind of falter, we just become a better company. So that's kind of how we built the workforce, how we retain people. It's always a struggle, but I just feel like we're in such a better place than a lot of companies because, you know, we get a lot of people that, especially from the vietnamese community that are, you know, they're new to the country. They move here and they come here first and they're like, hey, people have told me this is the place to work and that, you know, that's awesome. So, yeah, I just feel like we have a cool thing going on and, you know, there's a lot of people in our industry that had, you know, come to us and, you know, ask us a lot of cool little, ask us about things that we're doing because they hear, like, we're running such a cool shop and, you know, such a lean and, you know, efficient and productive place. So that's, that's what we really focus on.
[01:01:39] Speaker B: So I have a question around, like, like, I guess customer service is the way I'd phrase it. But again, for background, for anyone listening who doesn't know about vinyl or even know about putting out records, putting out records is like an impossible task. And I mean, from, like, an artist's perspective. Cause, like, it's not just like, you write a cool song with some cool lyrics and, like, you're. You're off. You're off to the races. It's like, you gotta have a cool song. Like, great song, great lyrics, but then your artwork has to be awesome, and it has to be recorded well, and then it has to be mixed well, and then it has to be mastered well. And then when you send it out to get done, the actual print of everything has to, like, do the art justice. And then when it comes to vinyl, it's, like, some vinyl is, like, amazing and feels, like, amazing, like vinyl, and some of it feels like, kind of, like shitty plastic. Putting out a record from start to finish is, like, one of the most complex things, and it's really dependent on every single person who's gonna deliver a part of that record doing a really, really good job. So on your side of, like, the production side, also, it's like, people need their records for tour or to hit release release dates. And musicians are. I don't know, musicians are difficult.
I want to be really kind about it. So how have you. How have you, like, managed your business relationships and your customer relationships?
[01:03:06] Speaker A: Well, I think the first thing you have to do is say no when you can't do something.
I never want to take a job that I don't think that I can nail because, you know, it just puts us in a bad light, puts us in a bad position.
It hurts the artist and the label. So saying no is, I think, the thing that. That a lot of plants don't want to say because they want the work. But we kind of look at all of our opportunities as, like, we want to be partners with fans and labels. You know, we want to work with them to make sure that they get what they need. And if that means that I can't help them, you know, and maybe someone else can, you know, then I'll help them, you know, go that route.
But one thing that we learned when we were building the plant is we decided we were going to spend all this money on getting grown up systems, like an ERP and warehouse management system and all these things. We had this homegrown filemaker database that we've been building for 20 plus years that did everything that we wanted to do. But it wasn't elegant. It was kind of slow. It didn't look great, but so we thought, like, hey, we got to grow up and come up with this new system. And what we found was that all these consultants that came in were so blown away at the complexity of our business, they failed. So we were 100 some thousand dollars into building this thing. And they're like, we can't do it. Like, it's. You guys, it's too.
Your business is so complex that it's going to be four times the money that we quoted you and it's going to take four times as long. And I was just freaked out. I was like, I just spent so much money on this.
And then you start to talk to all these people and almost all of the systems in place are made for these pick and pack, buy a widget, sell a widget, and there's complexity to that. But in order for us to be good at customer service and manufacture something of quality on time, you need to be super organized. And I think that's where our strength is, is that we've been tailoring our systems for multi component manufacturing for a long time. So what I mean by that is we did a box set a couple years ago that had 42 items inside, right? So we had to manage 19 different cds. You know, the sleeves, the jackets that go in the cds, you know, five different albums, all their jackets, lanyards, laminates, posters. You know, all of a sudden you have all these components that have to get put together, but they also have to be made, inventoried, moved, assembled. You know, you had to make sure that everything was, was collated properly and put into the right box. And, you know, so all of a sudden, like, you look at it from a scheduling, a warehousing, you know, just a material handling, an assembly, the manufacturer, it's just like, it's a very complex process and we wouldn't be able to do it if we didn't have amazing scheduling system, amazing people that ran scheduling and production and warehousing and assembly. Everything has to come together to be able to put together even a single lp with an insert.
There's four components. A sticker, a jacket, an insert, a record. The labels that go on the record, not to mention all the pre production which you alluded to, which is the recording and mastering, mixing, mastering, mastering for vinyl, cutting a lacquer, making plates, creating a test pressing, all of that stuff has to kind of line up. And it's a lot of work and it's kind of a miracle that actually happens. But it's all about organization. It's all about having systems in place and also, like, scheduling properly. Like, we only schedule, you know, 80%, maybe 90% of our, of our manufacturing because we always know that something's going to come up and we need to have a little bit of room in there to be able to push things up or pull things back, and, you know, it's just. And also just being able to be dynamic, you know, and not have such a rigid, you know, structure or schedule that you can't, you know, call an audible and change things around. Once all that stuff's in place, then you can actually have, you know, provide good service to the customer, because we know where everything is in the process at every minute, every day. There's never, like, oh, I don't know. Let me go check. Like, we know, you know, we can get back to people and then, you know, bad news first. You know, that's in addition to saying no. Like, if something does come up, which it always does. Not always, but when it does, you contact the customer immediately. So we can come up with a. Even if something we think will still ship on time, we'll tell the customer immediately, hey, this came up. We're going to reprint something or we're going to repress something, but we just want to let you know. So if there's a plan b or c that could be implemented, it's not like we're trying to do that on the day it ships, but we're trying to do it a week or two weeks before. And that's just part of this partnership that we try to create with our customers. To say they all know, like, things happen in manufacturing. They just want to know when things kind of fall off the rails so they can work with you to come up with a solution that works for everyone. So I think it's just all of those things. It's real basic, but it's communication. It's saying no. And it's about systems. Systems.
[01:09:29] Speaker B: First of all, that was an amazing answer.
Do you have a record that you would view as being like, hey, this is a perfect record, from the songs to the way it sounds, to the way it looks to the packaging, everything. Do you have a record that you'd be like, oh, that's a perfect record?
[01:09:49] Speaker A: Good question.
No, I don't. I don't think I do. I mean, there's, like. There's, like, bits and pieces to a bunch of records that I really like. Eddie Vedder put out a solo album a long time ago, and it had this amazing, like, had all these inserts about, like, poster that came out, show you how to play all the songs on a ukulele, and then, you know, like, a poster of his ukulele, which is beautiful, and a whole booklet on, like, all the notes and lyrics. And it was just like, the concept of it was pretty amazing.
You know, it wasn't the most elaborate packaging, but it was just such a cool thing that he was so into the ukulele that he was going to be like, hey, I want to share this with everyone else. And people are so creative, you know, I can't even think of, like, one specific thing that I'm, like, uber psyched about because there's been so many things that are. I mean, also, like, I kind of look at a lot of these records based on the process of making them, too. Like, just the complexity of some stuff that people wouldn't think are complex. Like this.
This Metallica record. This is, like, the last Metallica record. And how many times we had to, like, fix this die cut so it could actually. It could actually be folded and not creased. And how. How we got this yellow to be this yellow, you know, it's just like, that was just quite an experience, because I've been in this business for a long time, and I consider myself not an expert on print, but I know a lot about print and packaging, and I learned, like, four things during the manufacturing of that record that I didn't know before. So, like, I always look at this record, I'm like, yeah. Like, I'm psyched because, you know, it actually turned out the way they wanted it to turn out, and it took a long time to get there, you know, and it's like, you know, there's this artist's vision, you know, graphic design or the artist themselves, they have a vision of how it should be, but then we have to make it work. And those are two very different things. Like, it's kind of like the different. It's like an architect and an engineer, right? Like, an architect can come up with, like, the wackiest thing, but, you know, if it can't physically be built, then it's just an idea on paper. So, you know, we get challenged, you know, every day with, hey, I want to do something really weird. You know, can you. Can you do it? And, you know, it's a. It's fun to be able to, you know, do that research and deep dive into some of these engineering issues that. That go into making a record that even after all this time, I'm still learning. So I kind of look at. At my favorite records based on that, because I'm so immersed in it. And that makes me more excited sometimes than going out and buying a record that I didn't make, because I can appreciate the things that we've done more just because I've been so intimately involved in them.
[01:13:04] Speaker B: Yeah, like, it's a. It's like an actual miracle when a record that's, like, perfect or near perfect exists. Cause, like, you know, in. In a lot of ways, the writing of the songs and, and all of that, it's just so subordinate to every other thing that could make that record not as cool. Like, and it could be a degree off of being perfect or, like, huge degrees. Like, think how many records are good records? Like, yeah, it's actually, like, cool songs and everything, but they're recorded terribly or the packaging sucks or the vinyl's flimsy. It's like, there's so many factors involved with putting out, like, a perfect, perfect record. I don't know how many people recognize that and that die cut that you're talking about. It's like, dude, that's like, that's a crazy feat to make happen. Plus have a cool recording, plus have cool art, plus those things. So putting out, like, an awesome record is really a very, very daunting, challenging task.
[01:14:01] Speaker A: Yeah. And, you know, I still kind of look at, vinyl is expensive, and it costs a lot of money to make for the artist, for the label, and it costs a lot of money for people to buy it. And I'm still of the mindset that if you're going to pay that much money for a record, it should be perfect. And so we kind of look at every record that goes out as, like, a museum piece. You know, there can't be any, like, little dings on the corner. Like, the record has to sound fantastic. Everything that we do through the process and who we work with, you know, to cut our lacquers and plate records and, you know, printing and our manufacturing, everything is set. So if, like, John Coltrane came back to life and he created the best record and the best recording in the world, like, we press records. Like, it's. That record that's coming back from the dead is going to blow everyone's mind. It has to sound good, has to look good. It has to be an experience when you open it up and whether that's a punk record or, you know, major label, big record or whatever it is, like, we kind of look at it as every record is that important because our names on every record and there's a lot of records that get pressed that are terrible and there's a lot of records that are packaged poorly. And I just feel like we're a little bit more expensive than everyone else because it costs us more to do what we do, every record is looked at.
We listen to every 50 records that come off the press. You know, there's tons and tons of QC checks along the way before it actually goes into a box and gets shipped out. That's the only way we'll do it. You know, there's been. There's always pressure, business pressure to that. Hey, if you cut some corners or you kind of relax your standards, you can make more money and you can put out more records. But, you know, at the end of the day, it's like. But then I'd have to, like, be one of those mediocre pressing plants. I don't like, what's the glory of running a pressing plant that everyone else can, can do the same thing. And then I'm just focused on price and trying to compete on price, and I don't want to be that person. I'd rather make less money, make the best records in the world, and people will come, they'll find us, because there's always records that people put out that have to be perfect. And I feel like we're always amongst that discussion. Hope Furnace can do it. And that makes us super psyched about coming in every day.
[01:16:42] Speaker B: So share what you can share comfortably about Metallica coming in and purchasing part of the company.
[01:16:52] Speaker A: They've always been six, seven, 8% of our business. They press a lot of vinyl. You know, they. They're always really involved in producing their vinyl. Everything from, you know, the artwork to, you know, they always want it to be the best. I learned over the years that they're one of those bands that, like, really does not take their fans for granted. So everything that they do is very, you know, the band themselves is very involved in everything.
So they've always been really good to us. We've done big projects for them and said, hey, listen, we really need you to pay half upfront or whatever, because we're investing so much time and money into the project that we can't afford to float half a million dollars. And they're like, okay, no problem.
So they've always been great partners. We've got to know the folks on the band side and also on their management side. We've always had this amazing partnership with them. So when the opportunity, when we were kind of looking at, who are you going to bring in for possible investment?
We had talked to a couple of companies, and it didn't really feel right. And I definitely didn't want to go down the venture capital route, because that's just the road to mediocrity. So the idea of working with Metallica and how. How excited they were at the opportunity or the chance to get into the vinyl world, you know, it was, for me, it was like, this is a no brainer because I know who they are.
It was funny when they were doing press for, like, the last record, like, the thing that kept coming up was, you know, hey, so you own a vinyl plant now. You know, I got so much free press from this whole thing kind of coming out at the same time that they were promoting their record that, you know, they were so psyched about, like, everyone's excitement and interest in not only the band owning a pressing plant, but, you know, for a lot of their fans, like, oh, what's vinyl? You know, because they weren't necessarily vinyl fans, so.
But, yeah, it's been, you know, it's been about a year.
They leave. They leave us alone. You know, they're like, you guys, you run a really good company, you produce great records. You run it well.
They're not going to mess up with. They don't want to mess with the success that we've had. So if anything, they've been, like, super supportive and introducing us to a lot of people supporting us where they can from a business side. But it's not like they bought the company. They haven't put any extra money in. It's really like, we got to succeed being a good company, you know, it's not like we have a sugar daddy that just throws money at us. Like, it's totally the opposite. It's like, you know, you guys do a good job and you keep doing what you're doing and, you know, you got to succeed, you know, by being a good company, not because we're going to throw a bunch of money at you and then, you know, that's the way it's been. And they are, yeah, super supportive. They got a good team around them, and we learn a lot from them and they learn a lot from us, and it's creating some good opportunities for both sides. So, honestly, like, everyone, I have a couple friends that have gone through sales, business, acquisitions, and they all said, just get ready to hate whoever buys you because it's going to be, it's all fun at first, and then you get into the details and then everyone fights and then you hate each other. And it was the total opposite experience for us. Like, I feel like both sides got a fair deal.
We worked collaboratively through the process and then post transaction, we've been super supportive of each other. So, honestly, no b's it's been amazing, and we're excited that they're on our side. It's, you know, opened up some opportunities, for sure. And it's just weird being, you know, associated and being a business partner with, like, you know, one of the biggest bands in the world. So super, super excited. They're really nice guys, the band.
I don't know. I don't know what else to say other than, like, we're. We're totally blown away by how good of a fit it's been for both sides.
[01:21:28] Speaker B: What was the goal of having an investor? Because you'd mentioned you were considering it before. Why did you want to have an investor? And then after getting an investor, what's been the outcome? What's it been helping you do? Steven?
[01:21:42] Speaker A: For me, the biggest thing has been just taking some of the stress and weight off my shoulder.
Even though we've found a lot of success over the years, I still was every day, like, it was really hard on me. I don't handle, you know, that level of stress and responsibility all by myself very well. So, you know, I just. That was, like, the main thing was. Was just trying to ease some of that anxiety that I had all the time. Even though we were doing well, I'm always like, what if this happens? You know, that's just the way my brain's always been.
So I think it was first and foremost that, but also I saw that the industry was going to become a lot more competitive.
When we first set up our plant, there was 13 pressing plants in the US. Now there's 52. Wow.
Most of them are smaller, like two or four press operations, but it's still. There's been a lot of presses added to press capacity added to the United States. You know, I wanted. I just wanted, you know, someone, you know, to kind of help us through this transition that I knew we would go through. So it's just, I think. I think it's. It's also kind of energized the staff and, and, you know, really showed a lot of people in the industry that, you know, we were doing a good job because, you know, I don't think, you know, a band like Metallica would invest with someone that, you know, hadn't built the reputation and is capable of doing the things that we're able to do. So it was kind of a culmination of all those things, is why I decided to bring on an investor, and they're the majority owner now.
[01:23:36] Speaker B: It's such a crazy leap, and I know, because it's your life it makes sense, but just from your audience perspective, like, me listening to it, it's like some kid in his parents house stuffing envelopes for his hardcore record label. And Metallica was a band then. And then, like, all of these years later, they're your business partner. Like, what a crazy. What a crazy ride.
[01:23:58] Speaker A: I think the other cool thing about them is obviously, like, you know, master of puppets and, you know, kill them all and all that stuff was, like, you know, in rotation when we were younger. And the fact that they were covering misfits records, I mean, they come from that world. Like, they came from, you know, that metal and punk world. But more importantly, they've always been fiercely independent. Even though they were on a record, their major label, you know, everything they did was very independently focused. And the way that they kind of created that thrash scene out of nothing and the way that they hustled and stuff, I mean, that was very reminiscent of, you know, what punk rock was doing back then. And just the way that they, you know, ran their record label and their. Their fan club and, you know, they have, like, their own recording studio and their own headquarters. Like, everything's very diY. And they're. I mean, Lars in particular is very hands on with everything from, you know, every. Everything that is laid out for packaging to merchandise and everything else. So, you know, from our experience, like, you know, they kind of share the same ethos, independent DIY ethos, even though they do it on such a huge scale, they're so intimately involved in everything they do that it's kind of similar to what my experience has been. So there isn't, like, a cultural divide in what we're doing. It's like, they get it, and they've done this for way longer than I have. So, you know, so it's, you know, we're. We're kind of very connected in the way that we run our businesses.
[01:25:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, even as, like, a throwback that maybe people listening to this wouldn't know. Like, Metallica resisted doing music videos until one. Like, they didn't want to be a part of that whole world. And then even when they did, it was with great reticence and, like, a high level of, like, artistic control.
Metallica, it's a real. I like that you say it's like DIY, because I go into the idea, it's like, DIY is only this teeny little thing. It's like, now, like, you can have, like, a huge, like, massive kind of machine behind you, but you can still be in the details and really focused on things and making sure the details are there. And, like, Metallica is, I just think, like, one of the coolest stories. And especially, it's like, I was like a legit little kid when I was listening to Metallica. And all these years later, they're still doing it in much the same way. And that's like an amazing story.
[01:26:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, there's not a lot of bands that last this long. And, you know, you know, it's, you know, we've. We've gone to several shows, you know, since the whole deal went down. And just being in a crowd where you have, like, you know, 60 year old grandfather, 40 year old son, you know, 15 year old, you know, grandson, you know, it's crazy seeing, you know, and, yeah, like, you know, there's. It's a. It's a very diverse audience. Like, both, you know, gender, race, age. Like it. Like, it is. It is a melting pot at those shows. It's pretty, pretty interesting to see and how relevant they've, you know, kind of remained over the years, and they still put on a great show. So I think, you know, they're one of a handful of bands that have been able to do this and, you know, for the last ten years. Eleven years, 412 years, I don't know. They've done it independently, and that's pretty. It's pretty cool.
[01:27:46] Speaker B: All right, so we're heading towards the end of the interview. I want to just do a quick dip back in kind of more the linear story.
So, you know, you'd started all your stuff out, like, step forward and doing all those things, had your first taste of doing, like, a little indie business, moved out to Pennsylvania, ended up, you know, playing in bands out there and starting art monk construction. I don't want to spend too much time on it, but art Monk was quite different than step forward. I mean, it was artistically different. It was like, seemed, you know, it's quite a flip to it, but one of the things that stood out to me about art Monk and that I always really liked about that record label is every record looked like it was supposed to be an art monk. Like, there was, like, a real, like, sense of personality to the record label. So, art Monk, was that a thing that had more intention, or was it just something that just kind of happened?
[01:28:35] Speaker A: It was. Yeah, I think it had intention. I think, you know, it showed the, you know, I don't want to say maturity, but the growth that, you know, you come out of. And I don't want to diss on straight edge, but you know, it's very. Everything kind of looked the same. Everyone's wearing the same clothes.
Everyone was pointing, you know, everything, you know, all the photos kind of look the same.
And, you know, when you, you know, that. That kind of, like, you know, for me, got a little old and, you know, moved out to the east coast and, you know, totally different scene, totally different, you know, music that I was listening to and, I don't know, I was doing a lot of the graphic design for the label and for the releases and, you know, at first it was me and Garrett Rothman and our friend Rich Kramer kind of came into it later. But, you know, we just kind of all had a point of view and, you know, like, certain things and, I don't know, it was definitely organic. We didn't sit down and say, this is the way it's going to look and feel. It just still happens. A lot of the bands that we worked with kind of fit well together and kind of, I don't know if they were the most unique artists and releases, but they had their own thing going on. You know, it was just kind of fit our aesthetic and, like, what we like listening to because we turned down, like, you know, I'm not going to name the names, but we turned down, like, three artists because I didn't personally like them that went on to, you know, you know, biggest bands of that, that genre, you know, and, you know, it really was like, I didn't. It wasn't a record label to, like, put out and sell the most records. It was like putting out records from bands that we actually liked and listened to. And for the most part, we were friends with or we knew each other pretty well, but maybe a little too precious in that way.
We weren't thinking about, hey, let's be a record label. It was really just like, hey, these guys are cool. This is fun. I love this. So that was kind of the way it was conceptualized and ran, for sure.
[01:31:01] Speaker B: What's the story behind the name Art Monk?
[01:31:03] Speaker A: Well, that's a. Garrett came up with the name because he. He liked the Washington football team, and Art Monk was a star receiver. And, you know, it does cool it. This sounds pretty cool. Art monk. And then we kind of threw the construction because, you know, it was all about building shit and, you know, doing things, you know, so it just. It's kind of something silly, but it just is unique, too. Like, no one else had a name like that.
[01:31:30] Speaker B: What I liked about the label a lot at the time, like, I liked the releases, obviously, the Lincoln Hoover split was absolute classic.
When I said this to Garrett, he seemed a little surprised. I loved that Glendale single. I thought that was amazing.
[01:31:49] Speaker A: One of my favorite. That's one of my favorite records we ever put out.
[01:31:53] Speaker B: What I loved about it, a, I loved, instead of having the lyrics, they just listed the equipment, which was incredible.
But what stood out to me about art Monk a lot is at that time, there was a big. It was because, you know, like, punk is like, reaction, counter reaction, reaction, counter reaction. So you got this, like the straight edge trope, which I'm all about. Like, I'm super into it, but I like a lot. I go, I have a lot of deep connections to a lot of different stuff in the indie kind of punk world. So a counter reaction to that then, is all the stuff that came afterwards. Ebullition, all of the bands, all of those things. But there were bands that went super far the other way. So I think of indian summer and the indian summer current split. How it was screened, I think on the actual bag, the poly bag, maybe it was screened on something. And it was, like, pretty dicey how it was put together. Like, you know, like, that thing's falling apart. But all of this, like, homemade screen stuff was happening. That was like handmade packaging. So kind of almost back to the discord days. Art Monk, though, actually always had really nice packaging, like thick cardboard, really nice printing. So while there was this, like, counter reaction to, like, really glossy, super well put together records and then moving to more diy recording, things being more lo fi, things being handmade, art monk kind of had, like, a middle ground between. The recording sounded good, the packaging was amazing. Everything had a feel, but it still kind of was able to tap into the energy of that kind of more.
[01:33:28] Speaker A: Counter reaction with step forward. I hand applied glue.
I was assembling records for so long, and I absolutely hated it. So when.
So the first release was the Hoover Lincoln seven inch. And we found a printer locally in state college that could print them, like, the jackets, and they could do the flaps and the whole thing, but they couldn't glue and put them together. So, you know, Garrett and I basically were sitting there, like, folding, gluing, you know, these record jackets. And it was such a pain in the ass. So that was like the first thousand. And then after that, you know, we found a printer out in California that, you know, they're one of the first that made, like, really good seven inch jackets. So, you know, it was. It was as much out of convenience as it was for the aesthetic. And, you know, everything. But we did want things to look, you know, and feel high quality and, you know, depending on what the band wanted. You know, we did so, you know, like, Glendale was a little different, you know, a little bit more lo fi and, you know, some other ones were a little bit, you know, more, well, you know, thought out and put together. But, you know, we were also, like, we didn't have any money, you know, so we were just, like. We were doing what we could, like, the best we could do with the money we had, and. But we would always spend it on the packaging. And I, you know, try to. Try to put out the best record because, you know, that's just what we were into. It wasn't like a. It wasn't a reaction against, like, the super diy stuff. It wasn't, you know, to inspire, aspire to be, like, some, like, super high endy, like, you know, art label. It was really just about, you know, just serving the recording the best we could with the money that we had and, you know, just being psyched about what we came up with, so.
[01:35:31] Speaker B: Okay, let's. Let's head into that. And, I mean, there's so much more I'd love to talk about. Like, I know you have two other businesses, you know, we're running up against time, so I want to head into the last three questions is what we call the crucial three. I'm going to ask you three scaling with difficulty questions, and you can take them any direction you want to go.
Okay. Before we hit it, anything you want to add in? Oh, go ahead.
[01:35:52] Speaker A: Um, I just want to plug my record label. It's called music. I'll give you the quick pitch for that.
We started that, I think, 2010. It was before all the labels knew that vinyl was a thing. We had all the Nirvanas, Sonic Youth, Tom Petty, teenage fan club, like, this amazing roster of stuff that we were reissuing.
I don't know. 14 years later, we've put out 500 records, everything from classic alternative to really amazing bebop jazz to now we run. We do all the bad brains records, and we work with Mike Watt.
So it's a really eclectic label that has kind of morphed into some really, you know, interesting things. But it's o r g music.com. but it's like. It's. Yeah, it's something I'm. I don't do the day to day. Like, we have an amazing label manager and partner, Andrew Rossiter, that does all. Everything but. And his crew there does amazing work, but that's been just, like, super fun to get off the ground and, you know, grow and just see where it's kind of gone. And, you know, we press all the records, so they're all, like, amazing. And, yeah, it's just. It's just kind of a fun outlet that we. That we have. We put out the samuel, you know, my. My band, like, when he reissued that stuff, and so, yeah, we have a good time with that.
[01:37:30] Speaker B: Heck, yeah. All right, so question one crucial three.
You do a lot of stuff, man. You have three businesses that you do, and, like, you talk about all of them like they're these little things, and then, like, I ask you one question, and you go into these, like, crazy in depth, like, how complex everything is. Like, what you just talked about, music, it's like, you put up 500 records, and you're like, oh, yeah, it's this fun thing.
It's like a real thing, and it's awesome.
So, with that, you've done a lot of stuff, big stuff, and it's. It's cool, but it's also probably a lot to manage. So how do you take care of yourself? How do you stay in good health and make sure that you're doing things the way you want to do them?
[01:38:11] Speaker A: I don't do a great job at that. I do work out.
I ride my bike, play drums.
So those are the things that I do to stay physically and mentally somewhat centered.
But honestly, I haven't really had an extended break from doing anything for a long, long time. I just bought a camper van. I'm just building it out right now. And it'll be interesting to see what happens with that because I'll be able to do long road trips. I've always wanted to live in a van down by the river, so I'm gonna have my chance to do that. But, yeah, I think I need to. That's what I need to really work on more is self care. You know, I always kind of put that off, so got to do more. But I do ride all the bikes. Mountain bike, road bike, gravel bike, do stuff on the river. I like drum.
I don't know, hang out with my family, my dogs.
[01:39:20] Speaker B: All right, second question. What's one thing like. And I'm talking, like, career stuff now, and maybe I don't. Maybe just life stuff, really. But, like, you've built up all this stuff, and I really loved how you're talking about building up furnace, how you built up the people who work for the company, and you went to a specific community, and you felt like a really cool company. Culture along that way, you probably had a lot of moments that tested you. So when you've been tested, what's one thing that you learned about yourself that you didn't like? You're like, nah, this is not a good quality in myself or it's not a good way of acting. What's one thing you didn't like that you had to work on?
[01:39:58] Speaker A: Definitely a quick reaction, like, you know, be honest with you, I've always kind of worked out of fear. I think it was instilled along, like, when I was young. Like, I've always had money anxiety because, you know, my mom was single. You know, she scrapped, you know, saw that kind of struggle.
I remember she got me a credit card to buy my first drum set, my first scooter to get around, and I paid the minimum for a year. And then I was like, how much do I owe? And she's like, the same as you owed a year ago. And I was, like, freaking out. So I've always kind of had this weird relationship with money, and so I've always been, had a lot of stress and anxiety around it, so. And I take everything so personally sometimes that when we mess something up, I'm like, so I think it was just a combination of things, like, just, like, just reacting to things negatively as opposed to stopping thinking and being more constructive. And I think that that's something that I've really improved on over the years is, you know, trying to be a little bit, you know, calmer and cooler, collected because at the end of the day, you realize, like, everyone's doing their best, no one's making mistakes or no one's making decisions to screw up. I realized later in my career that the only way people learn is to fail, and you got to let them fail, and you just have to do your best to kind of manage, you know, the fallout of that. But if you have a good crew and you have people that care, like, they're going to do the best job they can. And so you just have to manage your reaction and your anger sometimes in a constructive way. So, you know, you can, you know, grow and build upon those troubling, stressful times as opposed to letting it consume you and, you know, take you backwards. And still something I'm working on, but I feel like that's been my biggest struggle and where I've focused the most on growth.
[01:42:15] Speaker B: All right, last question, and I'm going to talk about your whole time in music. So it could be like, from when you were young to when you're any stage. And it could be like, when you're doing stuff from a production side or in bandst, what are three bands that you feel never had their day? And what I mean by that is every one of us has that band where you're like, oh, shit, everyone should have known about that band. That band was amazing. That demo was incredible. But it's like a kind of a secret that, you know, I'll give you an example. There's like a. I live in Vancouver, BC, and there's a little town just across the border called Bellingham, Washington. And Bellingham, Washington had a band called Jayhawker. And the Jayhawker demo is, like, unbelievable, but, like, nobody knows who it is. So what are three bands across any genre anywhere in your time where you're like, that band never had its due?
[01:43:13] Speaker A: I can't believe you're doing this to me because I have a terrible memory.
Okay. There's a band that we put out on art month called Transmaggetti. And I loved them so much.
Still do. And they were so good. And, you know, they put out a couple lp's, a seven inch split. Seven inch. They were so good. And I don't feel like they got their due. They're really good live, you know, great songs, great vocals.
So I would say them.
I would say Pitchfork, which I guess some people know who they are, but I loved, love, love Pitchfork. I thought they were one of the greatest bands. I still listen to them all the time. Obviously, they went on to do great things with drive, like jehu and rocket from the crypt and that whole thing. But, like, Pitchfork was amazing. And maybe, like, squirrel bait.
Squirrel bait was amazing. You know, again, like this, there's people that know who they are, but they were, like, so different. Interesting.
They were doing shit that no one else was doing. They were like kids and they were making, like, amazing music, like, way ahead of their time. And obviously, like, you know, whoever went on to Slint, you know, they found great success. But Squirrel Bay was just one of those bands that were hard to categorize and, you know, never got to see them. They broke up before I was, you know, able of the age to go see them. I guess they were just amazing. So I can't say that those are, like, the three bands that I like, the best examples, but they're the three bands that kind of came to mind right away when I say, like, I'll mention those bands and they're like, who's that? You know, most people just don't know who they are and. And but they made a huge impact on me.
[01:45:25] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, Pitchfork seven inch is my best friend's favorite seven inch. And like, he goes on and on and on about it, so I love that. Alright, listen, man, that is, we've come to the end. This was really cool. Like, I had to hold myself back from nerding out on certain parts because, like, there's just some so much shit that I want to go, like, let's talk about this thing and, like, you're. Everything you've done is like, cover so much ground. I really appreciate your time. Anything you want to say as we're closing off?
[01:45:52] Speaker A: No.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, I just. I just want to.
I guess the only advice that I give to, like, bands, small bandst, you know, up and coming labels and stuff is like, let's have fun. The one thing that I learned, you know, I was in this band, Samuel, and, you know, we were like, you know, we were pretty good. You know, in the early to mid nineties, we were playing a lot of shows and.
But we took it so seriously and I think we had an agenda. You know, we wanted to be like, we thought we were good, you know, and we thought we should play big shows and put out a record and blah, blah, blah. And it was just kind, like, I look back at those days as, like, we had such an opportunity to just have the best time in our lives and we did. We had a good time, but we were trying to achieve something as opposed to just enjoying the moment. And I feel like if you're like, so we got back together during COVID like every other band did and we've been playing shows here and there and we're having such a good time because, you know, we're middle aged, you know, we don't have an agenda. You know, we're looking at this as like, like great mini vacations. Every time we go and play a show or we get to. We just love each other. We still have, you know, have great relationships after all these years. So I would just say, like, you know, if you're going to run a label, like, have fun. Like, the people you work with, if you're gonna be in a band, like, like, the people you're in a band with, have fun. Don't have expectations because all those bands that, like, you know, have huge expectations, like, then you're just miserable through the process because you're like, why isn't it happening? Or why is it taking so long or what? Just. Just, I think, like, you know, if you're good people will find you. And if you want to put out good records, like, people will find you. But just, like, you know, do it because you love music. Do it because you're enjoying the process.
And it just becomes a way better experience and something that you look back on with fond memories. Because I, you know, I did a lot of stuff that I looked back and I was like, that was kind of miserable. Like, got to do it. It was fun. Toured the country when I was 17, but, like, we were, like, we didn't. We didn't all like each other, you know, in the van after a week or so, and, you know, we didn't realize, like, how. What a amazing opportunity that we were having, being able to drive in a van across the country and play to kids, you know, of all, it was just amazing. So, anyway, that's. That's all I got to say. Have fun. Don't take yourself too seriously.
[01:48:41] Speaker B: That's amazing. And you rock. I really appreciate you. Great conversation. And everybody, please check out Samuel. Great, great band. Super glad you're playing together again.
Check out records, check out furnace. And then also, like, you know, if you're really. If you're dedicated, check out art monk, and then also check out step. Listen, man, your role. Thank you so much for your time and everybody, I'll see you next time on one step beyond one step.
One step.
[01:49:14] Speaker A: What?
[01:49:14] Speaker B: That. Beyond.
