Sarah Kuretzky Rossington, The Hardcore Therapist

[00:00:00] Speaker A: I just love learning. And I think that like, I spent so much time masking while I was supposed to be learning as a kid that now I just want to learn and grow and try new things all the time because I was afraid that people were going to find out that I was. And I'm using air quotes, dumb. But now I'm like, oh, it doesn't matter if I fail because I'm going to learn from that and then I'll do something else. So like, like my learning disability and my attention deficit has been like, I think my greatest gift because it has created this space where it's like, I did this, I masked, and now I don't want to mask anymore because I want to be who I am. [00:00:39] Speaker B: Something I love is when I'm speaking with a professional who does have a background in punk and hardcore. And of course, this podcast isn't only about that. It's just super fun for me because there's something about people from punk and hardcore where it's like they could have a lot of great experience or they could have a lot of great education or both, but they always find a way to draw from punk and hardcore and how that has kind of played as a always a consistent foundation or landscape of how they get things done. And, you know, it's something I always say a lot is, no matter what, if you want to, you want to hire someone who's going to figure it out, always hire a punk, because nobody's better than punks at figuring it out. So with that, today's conversation is with someone who has a really, really cool story, actually got to see negative approach, which we'll touch base on in a little bit. And also, it's just like a real interesting and charismatic person. So with that, before we get to the interview, please subscribe to the podcast, you know, rate review, all of that good stuff. My name is Aram Arslanian, and this is one step beyond. Sarah, welcome to the show. [00:02:04] Speaker A: Thanks. So good to be with you. [00:02:07] Speaker B: You too. I'm super stoked. [00:02:09] Speaker A: I know, I am too. I'm all like, let's go. [00:02:12] Speaker B: So for the uninitiated, for the people who don't know, who are you and what do you do? [00:02:18] Speaker A: Okay, so I am Sarah Koretsky Rossington, and I am the hardcore therapist. That is my name, that is my brand, and I'm a therapist. So I mostly work with people in mental health capacity, obviously, but I do a lot with substance use disorder and eating disorders are kind of my area of expertise. Also, I work. I have a lot of relationship clients, so I do that. I go to festivals, and I do a lot of education and support with people who maybe want to have a more sober experience at a festival. That's kind of who I am, what I do. [00:02:55] Speaker B: There's a ton to unpack there. Let's just start with the basic premise. You talked about the different kinds of areas where you specialize. Could you just hit on each one and just unpack those for us? [00:03:09] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. So I actually struggled with disordered eating throughout my life. I've been an athlete, and I always wanted to try to be like, I'm a taller, bigger person. I always wanted to try to shrink myself, so I actually went into personal training and health coaching to get a better understanding of that. So I've actually used that information. I'm working with clients who have eating disordered and disordered eating, but I'm, like, certified in intuitive eating, and I work with people with different eating disorders. So, like, right now, I have clients who have ARfId, which is a feeding disorder. Usually it's linked to autism spectrum disorder. I work with people who binge eating disorder and also anything in that area of anorexia. And I work on programming and planning with them to understand not only the mental capacity, but also the nutritional information that they need to know to help them with that. So that would be one area I work on. Yeah. And then substance use disorder, I actually thought that that was the area that I was going to go into when I did my education. So most of my classes were geared towards substance use disorder, and so. And I'm a proud member of Al Anon. So I have experienced people in my life who have been addicts and alcoholics, and so I've done a bunch of training in that. So I do harm reduction is my kind of. My area that I really look at. And harm reduction is like, if people still want to use drugs and alcohol, what kind of plans and what could we can create for them if they don't want to get sober? So creating different kind of situations for that. So that's my substance use knowledge. Like, it is not my expertise, but it's definitely the area that I have, like, a strong passion towards. And clients seem to be really excited to work with me because of. I am very, like, open book and talk about personal experience as well. [00:05:07] Speaker B: Excellent. And then you also mentioned some focus on relationships. [00:05:12] Speaker A: Yeah. So I, like, kind of stumbled into that. That was not an area I thought I'd be interested in, but all of a sudden, I was doing a lot of work at where I work. It's called tree of life in Detroit. And I, we were doing a lot of work with families and divorce, and they were asking if I would work with people because I have a background in education. So I started working more, and I did Gottman training, which is for relationships. So I started working with people in that capacity. But also, like, I think that a lot of people really lack a relationship with themselves. So I usually have people look within a little bit more to understand who they are and, like, what parts of them that are holding them back for the relationships that they're in. [00:06:01] Speaker B: So around disordered eating, I'd love just your thoughts on a. If you could just tell us a little bit more about it. Cause I think people in general kind of understand it, but I think it's always great to get a bit more into it. But also, just what, if any, impact you think that social media and kind of this focus on presenting ourselves to the world might be playing in that? [00:06:23] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. So disordered eating is different than an eating disorder. And I really try to clarify that with my clients, because a lot of people will just be like, oh, it's my Ed. People will say it as kind of like a badge of honor. And so I educate them on the difference. So disordered eating ends up being like that people who yo yo diet, who over exercise, you know, under feed themselves, keep on jumping on fads, you know, and social media is, like, a huge part of that. So, like, you might see, like, I'm going to use keto. And, like, if people are on keto, cool, and it works for you, awesome. But, like, if someone sees keto and they're like, oh, I need to lose weight. Keto's the only way I can do it. And I'll jump on that for a while, and then they might lose weight, and then they gain weight back, and then they're like, okay, so now I'm going to become vegan. Let's do that. And they continue to change and do that. So that's more of the disordered eating. I always ask people when we, when I feel like they have disorder eating over an eating disorder, why they feel like they need control. So we work a lot on that idea of control. So that's that piece with eating disorders. It's really kind of scary what we see in social media. And, like, if I have teens that I have that have eating disorders, one of the things, one of the first things we do, like a digital diet. Cause I love that word diet, and we get rid of all of. All of their. The people that they follow that contribute to their eating disorder. So it might be an influencer who doesn't eat or what they eat in a day. I don't know if you've ever seen anything like that, but it's like, what I eat in a day, and it's like an almond and a glass of water, and that's what they eat in a day. And that's what people kind of gravitate towards or people who over exercise. Right. And that orthorexia is another part of eating disorders that I think people don't have a lot of information on, where people are exercising for an insane amount of time to maintain a body size, and they will only eat foods that they deem good. Right. So we're looking at things like, I mean, I'll test tell you how I suffered. I wouldn't eat anything white, right? It's like, I wouldn't eat white rice, I wouldn't eat white potatoes, I wouldn't eat white bread, because those are bad. And so, like, demonizing food. And you'll see a lot of that on social media, and it's perpetuated all the time. And then the idea of, like, looking like celebrities or, you know, these influencers who are having cosmetic procedures done to change their body to look a specific way when, like, my clients specifically don't have the means for something like that. And they think by eating and doing all these things that they're saying that they should be able to shrink their body into that kind of size. [00:09:06] Speaker B: It feels like, and certainly this is just, like, opinion based here. It feels like the impact of social media is so unavoidable. So, like, I actually personally don't have. I have, like, social media. Like, there is, like, one that has my name on it, but it's really just like, we just put things out about the podcast or about the company on it. And I used to be quite active on social media, and I just found it not only did it eat up too much of my time, but it just was a constant source of anxiety for me, especially as the world has kind of become increasingly complex and there's a lot of, like, really intense things happening in the world. And I just had to seek for something quite a bit more simple in my life and kind of pull back from being too, interacting with too many people. But so if I'm. If I'm saying that, like, I'm gonna be, like, 50 in, like, a few weeks, if I'm saying that at 50, I can't imagine what a 23 year old is and how that's playing with their mental health because they're on blast constantly. It's what they grew up with, for sure. [00:10:10] Speaker A: Do you know the book anxious generation? Have you heard of that book? Anyone listening or viewing, like, check out that book. Anxious generation talks about how much more anxious kids are since 2013 because of the rise of social media. And I truly believe it. Like, every time I'm working with kids, we talk about their social media. If they're a, if the kids are younger than 16 and I have their parents involvement, I talk to them about screen time and use of screen and understanding what happens to their brains when they're constantly getting this information fed to them and how it can affect them. [00:10:54] Speaker B: In a negative way from your perspective. And again, just really looking for opinion here. So social media is not going away. If anything, it's going to ramp up and kind of morph and do all these things. What is the way that someone could possibly manage having good, strong mental health while also knowing we're going to be immersed in this going forward? [00:11:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I have a 16, almost 17 year old daughter, and, you know, obviously she's grown up in this, right? And she sees this all the time. We talk about, like, using social media and how to use it properly. And when I'm working with families, like, I do believe kids need limit on social media. I do think that you should put those blockers on there. I think as adults we need it. And if we're unable to do that ourselves, to actually put those timers on our phones so that we know that we're not getting sucked in for too long. I mean, for me, like, I have Instagram on my phone, but I don't have Facebook or any other kind of social media that I'm getting sucked into because I know for me, I mean, I unfollowed so many people that were any kind of influencers with diet and exercise because, again, when I was personal training, I wanted to see what they were doing, but I can't see that anymore because I know how it affects me. So, yeah, limiting who you're, you know, you're interacting with, limiting your time, and making sure that you're using social media outlets in the way that you feel confident about it. If it's creating any kind of anxiety, I think, like, taking a month off of social media, like, people do this all the time, they'll be like, I'm taking a month off of social media. Social media, I think it's a great thing. Even this is kind of. Maybe it's not off topic, but it's just something that I do with social media. When I work with kids, I sometimes do kids retreats. It's a communication retreat. And for that entire weekend, they are not allowed to have their phone so that they are present. And a lot of kids will tell me they don't even want their phone back once it's over. And to be able to replicate that in everyday life, I think, is a really helpful thing. So creating those kind of systems, I think, is really helpful. You know, putting your phone in a different room when you want to communicate with people. Having your kids, you know, not have screens at restaurants, like iPad, kids, like, that just needs to stop because kids are not learning how to communicate well. And then they're so focused on what they're seeing, rather than internally, like, who they are and what. What they really like and need go into your. [00:13:23] Speaker B: Your path. You know, you've had, like a. You have a really cool story, so you've kind of. You've had multiple careers, and I have had multiple careers. And I'd love just to hear about your journey, about how you've landed, where you are today, including the rebrand and why that happened. [00:13:37] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. So I have a learning disability. I have dyslexia. And I did not think I was going to be able to go to college. Like, I graduated high school with 1.7. I was like. Like, I was on a third grade reading level my senior year of high school. Like, I just was not going to do it. I somehow talked my way into Wayne State University, which is in Detroit. It was literally the only school I wanted to go to because it was in the city and, you know, hardcore, right? Like, it was still pretty vibrant when I started. What happened was I thought I wanted to be a finance and economics major, but I ended up taking photography. I thought it would, like, be a blow off class, but I realized it gave me the opportunity to say things that I couldn't say in writing, and I was like, yes. So I got a BFA in photography, and then I moved on to the school of the Art Institute of Chicago for graduate school. And I just. I became a teacher. So I was a k twelve art teacher in the city of Chicago. I taught in Cabrini Green, which at the time, in the nineties, was like, the toughest projects in the United States. You know, I had, like, bullet holes in my window, like, people would walk me in so that I'd be safe. And it was freaking hard. It was really hard being an art teacher in the city, but all I wanted to do was give people a voice that they felt like they didn't have. And so I continued for many years teaching in some sort of capacity. So then I was married and my husband at the time, and my children, my child. I only had one at the time. My child and I, we moved back to Michigan. I was in Chicago for about nine years, moved back to Michigan. I ended up doing another graduate program in art education, thinking I was going to get my PhD. So I thought I could create sort of programs based on this idea of giving people voices and, like, people knowing their stories better than anyone else. And it's not for me to say, this should be your story. And so I ended up teaching at the university level and still teaching. Like, I taught at an alternative high school for a while, and I was really into this whole thing. But public school teaching is really hard. Like, it's really difficult. And I did it from 96 until 2022 in some capacity. I kept on going back to teaching, and I started a PhD program to become a principal and realized that was not how I wanted to do things. And then I was, like, really into nutrition, and I was, like, became a personal trainer and a holistic health coach. I'm doing that and teaching. I was really trying to figure out my way, and I was never afraid. I was never afraid to try things. And, you know, and that was something that I was really into when I taught art. That was what I was. Would tell kids all the time, like, don't be afraid. Like, try it. If it doesn't work, it's cool. It's cool. We can figure it out. And I lived my life like that. And then I was teaching in a very lovely suburb in Michigan, and I ended up. I was teaching photography. And the principal at the time was like, hey, we have this program that is dying that we really want to revive. It's called experiential education. I had no idea what it was. And she's like, I really think with how you work and your idea of doing service and your idea of getting kids to think outside the box, like, I think you'd be perfect for this. So I was like, okay. And I ended up just, like, totally changing my path. And I stopped teaching art, and I ended up being the head of experiential education, which is adventure based counseling, essentially. So what I did was I taught kids how to. It was called natural resources. So, like, how do you use your own personal natural resources to do problem solving. So I actually had this amazing school. I had a high and low ropes course, my school. And I would teach kids how to work as a team, as a group. I did, like, like, all the things that I feel like businesses do where they're trying to, like, get, like, people to work together better. Like, I facilitated all of those things. And then. And then, like, I had some tragic stuff happen in my life where I had someone that I was with who was a heroin addict, and he was my high school boyfriend, and then he died of a heroin overdose. There was a lot of other things in the middle of that, but I can talk about that more. But I just wanted to get to the work part, but it made me decide, like, I want to help kids like him. He did not. Like, I mean, we went to high school together. He didn't have a person and an adult that they could confide in and really talk to and create this place where there is safety. And if he maybe had that, maybe he wouldn't have gone down the path that he went down. And so I decided to go back to school. And that's why I was like, substance use disorder. But I really wanted to work and do that in schools. It just doesn't, like, schools don't really want that. Like, at least the schools in Michigan didn't really want that, and so they were. So then I just decided to go in private practice a few years ago. And so at first, I was Sarah Koretsky Wellness because I had owned that name for a really long time because I was still doing health coaching a little bit on the side, and I was still doing personal training on the side. So I'm like, okay, I'll be Sarah Karetzky wellness. And I branded myself in this very stereotypical therapist way. Like, the images were like people holding hands, like, relationship coaching, and just like, so not who I am. And I had this website, and, like, nothing happened for me. Like, I was getting no work. I was, you know, I was just not. I wasn't happy with it. I would look at it and I'd be like, ugh. And I'd have to, like, get out of my own site. And then I decided last year, because I was, you know, working as a therapist, but I was like, actually, I'll tell you, Robinoff Ray Chappo from youth of today actually tapped on being like, oh, it's Sarah Koretsky, the hardcore therapist. Like, he kept saying that. And I was like, huh, I am. And then people, other people started calling me the hardcore therapist. I was like, huh? And so then I was like, I actually messaged porcelain because he's the hardcore yogi, right? I messaged him, and I was like, would you be mad if I refer to myself or branded myself in this way? And he was like, I don't own the name hardcore, sarah. Like, you're being ridiculous. It was fine and funny, right? And so I branded. I rebranded myself, and then one of my students that. One of my art students from the high school I worked at went to school, the visual arts in New York, and she did branding and graphic design and stuff. And I did a pinterest word for her, and I showed her, like, old, like, hardcore, like, like, posters and just, like, fonts and different kind of things, and I'm like. And, like, mixtapes are really important. And, like. So I was like, jeff Koons is this, like, guy who makes art, who actually has other people make art. So, like, I felt like that of the. Of this. And I, like, told her exactly what I wanted to do, and she created this branding for me, which. It's exactly who I am. And since I become the hardcore therapist, I'm more authentically who I am, and people are more interested to hear who I am because I'm being me, and I'm not trying to be like. Like, I even dressed when I first started being a therapist. I dress totally different, like, how I'm dressed right now. Like, I totally go to work in a baseball hat and just wear, like, band t shirts and, you know, pair of adidas and go, right. Like, that's who I am. And I connect so much better with people because I'm being authentic to who I am. And that was a little. That was, like, the story. And I feel like that was so long. I'm sorry. [00:21:42] Speaker B: Listen, you don't know a vlog. Sometimes when I ask people that, I'm like, diet. That was perfect. That was great. Thank you. There's tons to unpack there. Yeah. Can I share a quick story with you before we go? [00:21:57] Speaker A: For sure. I love that. [00:21:59] Speaker B: So when I moved from being a therapist, so when I was working in the social services in Vancouver, BC, where I live in just the general area in the lower mainland, I could just wear, like, a t shirt and jeans, and I was used to that. When I started working in the consulting world and working in, like, leadership, I worked for this consulting agency that was, like. I can't even put into words how corny this place. This place was. And I was, like, relatively young. I had never worked outside of the social services before, it was like my first, like, my first jobs were oe social services. So when I worked there, my boss at the time was this total fucking cornball. I cannot even tell you how corny this dude is. He was like, oh. Like, you know, you can't. You can't let people see your tattoos. I met this guy just total by accident, and he, like, really, like, came after me to come work for the company because I was a therapist. And when I they hired me, it was like, flip the switch. It was like, don't tell anyone you're a therapist. Never let anyone see your tattoos. Never talk about being in a band or any of that stuff. Here's all of our intellectual property. Memorize this and regurgitate it. And I was like, oh, shit. I am not here because of anything of who I am or any of these things. All I am is a vehicle to sell your intellectual property to other people. And I'd left my career as a therapist. I'd made this big leap, and I was like, I didn't know what to do. So I was like, okay, I'll do this. And I'm like, wearing. I've never worn a suit before, outside of a funeral or a wedding before. I'm walking around, I'm just super uncomfortable. And I said to him, he kept harping about my tattoos. My sleeves weren't long enough, like the sleeves of my shirt, in his opinion. And he tried to get me to get specially tailored shirts that the sleeves would be like, ultra, ultra long, almost. [00:24:01] Speaker A: Like, cover your hands. It was like, like a little kid in someone else's shirt. Yeah. [00:24:08] Speaker B: And I was like, you know, I'm, like, young and I just left my career. So I was like, uh, I didn't know how crazy it was for someone to say that to you. And so I just said, listen, I'm going to make you a deal. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to get these shirts. Because I knew, like, somewhere inside me, this is, like, too far. I was like, I'm not going to do that. But what I will do is, let's give it six months. And if we receive one negative comment about me having tattoos, of people being able to see, like, that much of my tattoos, I will get, like, some crazy long shirt. Like, I don't. Whatever you need, it's fine. But up into that point, if past six months, nobody says anything, we're never going to talk about this again. And he was like, okay, absolutely. And within that first six months. I once I started getting a little bit more comfortable and kind of people could see a little bit more of the tattoos. And I kind of talked about being a therapist and coming from the punk scene. Clients loved it. They were crazy about it. And people were like, oh, you played in a band. Tell me what that was like. Oh, you were a therapist. And they would open up in different ways. And it was suddenly we went from, like, everything about you is wrong. Only represent the company and the ip to, oh, well, how can we use this to our advantage? And, like, it was like, a total switch. And, of course, it still wasn't like they didn't view it as a good way. It was just, like, a way that they could use who I was as a way of, like, marketing their stuff anyways. But it was such a lesson for me that, like, as soon as you go into a situation and you start, like, basically, like, being ashamed of who you are and trying to hide these things and present this thing, you're completely limiting your ability to actually be of service to people. And I just wanted to connect to your story there because, like, as soon as I started being who I actually was in an appropriate way, like, you know, I'm not, like, leading with stories of, like, the CRO mags or something like that in my client meetings, but, like, I'm being smart about how I'm talking about stuff, but as soon as you. As soon as you bring who you actually are into your work, that gives you an ability to actually be of service to people. [00:26:07] Speaker A: 100%. I totally agree. And I realized I was doing that and teaching, but I felt like once I was going to a different career, I couldn't do that anymore. And I don't know why. No one told me not to, but I don't know. I was like, people won't take me seriously if I'm wearing a baseball hat. I don't know. Just so silly. [00:26:29] Speaker B: Well, but it's also so much, like, there. I understand where that's come from because I kind of, like, maybe historically, like, 30 years ago, maybe people wouldn't have cared, but nobody will care in modern times. [00:26:42] Speaker A: Right? [00:26:43] Speaker B: So I want to go back into your story and hit on a couple points, because there's so many things I'd love to talk about. First, let's go back to growing up with dyslexia. [00:26:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:55] Speaker B: So differently understood in modern times than it was when we were younger people. So how did your experience of that in, like, kind of early life informed your approach to working with people? [00:27:11] Speaker A: That's an interesting question because it was, it was hard, right? Like, no one knew that I had a learning disability. I mean, like, teachers would just say, like, she's lazy, she talks too much, she's too social. I mean, I am too social. So maybe that's true. I don't know. But, you know, I think what it did was it helped me. Well, first of all, I felt like it was like the most hardcore thing in the world because, like, I've made it through school and I had a third grade reading level and I still, people thought I was super smart. They had no idea. So it was that whole thing. But I think what it did was it taught me about resilience and to be able to advocate for myself. So I think as a therapist and when I work with kids, one of my goals always is like, how do you advocate for yourself? And you are more resilient than you think you are. And I think that that is kind of informed how I talk about that with, with people. And I, like, I also do something that is not a normal thing. I think in therapy is I self disclose a lot. You know, I use myself as an example a lot. I don't want to use, necessarily use clients. I use myself. And, you know, when I have kids who maybe are struggling with, you know, ADHD or are on the spectrum or have learning disabilities, when I tell them like, oh, yeah, me too. And they're like, really, they get really excited about it and we can have conversations. We're talking to parents about that and how to parent kids who struggle in that way. Because I think a lot of times what happens, what I have noticed at least, was a lot of parents will take things away that kids are really good at when they're struggling in school somehow or they're not picking up what people are putting down. So, for instance, like, like, my, my son also has dyslexia and has ADHD. And like, something I tell people all the time is I will never, I would never took football away from him. He played football. He ended up playing college football. I didn't care if he got suspended because sometimes he wild out. I did not, I mean, I cared, but, like, I did not care that he struggled in school. That was not something that was going to be taken away. And I think letting parents know that it's okay to allow kids to be who they are and who they're meant to be and to come into their own has been a really, I think, powerful piece. And I think that really informs a lot of what I do. [00:29:33] Speaker B: Going to that, though, like, as you said, it was, like, very, like, poorly understood in our younger years, but you had this ability to advocate for yourself. Was that something that had been modeled for you by someone, or was it something that was just natural or something that you learned over time? [00:29:50] Speaker A: I think some of it was natural. Like, actually so funny, because I always tell these stories about myself to people. Like, when I was in kindergarten and I couldn't read, but the kindergarten teacher was teaching other kids to read. I said to her, and I got in trouble, I said to her, like, hey, they already know how to read. Why aren't you working with us who don't know how to read, right? Like, even at five years old, for some reason, I don't know why I was, I was doing that kind of things. Or, like, in the early eighties, like, I really wanted to be a bat person for the Detroit Tigers. Like, I really wanted. I really wanted to do that. But they only had bat boys then. And I wrote a letter to the Detroit Tigers that I wanted to be a bat boy. And, like, you know, I was probably nine years old or something, and, like, they sent me stickers back. It was lovely and stuff, but, like, I know I started doing those things, and I think that there was this kind of innate, like, I always kind of, like, fought for myself. And so I think it was that. And yes, people did not know, like, again, they found out my senior year of high school because I had an amazing teacher my junior, end of my junior year of high school, Mister Whitlock, who is like, I will, like, talk wonderfully about this man for the rest of my life who I was in a marketing class, and he gave me an examined, and I failed the exam. And then he gave it to me orally, and I got. It was out of 50 points. I got 49 out of 50. And he's like, there's something wrong. And he helped advocate for me. And I actually heard someone giving a speech about dyslexia. And she was talking about, like, all these things that she used to do. Like, she used to, like, count the people to see where she would. Would have to read, you know, like, I don't know, when you were in school, when we were in school, like, we'd all have to read the textbook together, so she would count where her number was and she wouldn't listen to what I was saying and practice and practice. And I totally did that. Or my favorite thing was I would go to the bathroom right before it was my time to read in front of my class. So, like, I was savvy, right? Like, I would figure out these things so people didn't know that I was struggling so much, and, yeah, so then when I was at end of my junior year of high school, I actually called the Michigan Dyslexia Institute, which was this great place here in Michigan. And I called and I'm like, hey, I think I might have dyslexia. How much does testing cost? I did this myself, not my parents. My parents were actually angry at me that I did this. Sorry, mom and dad, if you listen. And they told me it was $300. I saved dollar 300. My mom and I got in a fight the day that I was supposed to go get tested, and I started walking there with dollar 300 in my pocket to go because I was like, I have to figure out what's up. And then she ended up going, and then, yeah, so then they realized they had dyslexia. And so, yeah, I think it was a neat thing. I think it was a little bit of a hardcore thing, too. [00:32:39] Speaker B: So going to that idea of being able to advocate for yourself, so it's not just like kids who are trying to learn this, like, in my work, in the corporate world, and I imagine in your work as a therapist. [00:32:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:32:50] Speaker B: A lot of adults still struggle with advocating for themselves or maintaining boundaries or kind of like, holding the ground in a healthy way about appropriate things. So anything that you want to share, that you feel comfortable sharing about, like, how people at any stage in their life could ease into learning how to advocate for themselves or maintain boundaries. [00:33:12] Speaker A: So when I'm working with clients, I ask them what they think their boundaries are, because what my boundaries are aren't going to be the same as your boundaries. So for them to really be able to know themselves well enough to know what is acceptable and is unacceptable to them and work from there, and that is the first place you advocate for yourself. Because sometimes I'll have clients who'll be like, well, what do you think my boundaries should be? Dude, I don't have to live your life. You're good. Like, you figure you have to tell me what you want and I will help you get there. So that would be my first thing that I work with, with clients is like, what do you find acceptable and unacceptable? And then another thing that I really advocate when I'm working with clients is just because you've had patterns in your life where you've not held boundaries and where you've allowed people to take advantage of you or you haven't advocated for yourself, it doesn't mean, you can't change. And let's talk about how we can make those changes. And they don't need to be something huge. It can start with something small. Like, I'm going to use this as an example. Like, if your teenage kid is like, mom, can you go get me a glass of water? And they're just sitting playing video games, but you're carrying in groceries, you can say no, but you can help me with the groceries and see how that feels before you start, you know, doing like kind of a more high risk kind of things. [00:34:36] Speaker B: Do you mind if I share something I talk about in the corporate world? [00:34:39] Speaker A: I love it. Please share away. [00:34:42] Speaker B: Very often when people are talking to me about boundaries or advocating for themselves, there's the, there can be like a level of like, oh, you know, I've never been good in this in my life, or I've been avoidant of it or not. Like, actually I have been good at it. But the thing that people often come back to is like, power dynamics and fear of losing their jobs, consequences and all those things. One of the things I talk about is a version of what you just said is it doesn't have to be like zero to 60 instantly or you don't have to go to level ten. It's the figuring out how to do that in your ecosystem, your professional ecosystem, by degrees, over time, and socialize people to it, but also give people enough time with the idea that being, if you change people's perception, understanding of that change is probably going to lag by about six to eight months behind the actual changes you've made before they actually recognize it. And that advocating for yourself and developing boundaries shouldn't be a, I haven't done this and it's Wednesday and now on Thursday I'm going to do it and there's going to be this huge thing because power dynamics are real, consequences are real. Like sometimes people just, sometimes people benefit and quite often benefit by people not advocating for selves and not having boundaries. And if you do want to change that and remain in your job, you got to be strategic and pace it out over time while also anticipating that it will take your audience a while to acclimate to that. And I'm not saying that's a good or a bad thing, but that that's the reality of working in social settings where there is power consequences and all those types of things. But I want to get your thoughts on that. [00:36:19] Speaker A: No, that's amazing and accurate. I think that idea of zero to 60 is huge. People think that that's what it looks like to advocate for themselves. They have to do some sort of big, grand thing. And you're right, it takes time. It's practice, because people don't know you in that way. They know you as someone who is going to be the person that they could always go to, oh, I can't get this done. You'll get it done. I know you'll get it done. I struggle with that, to be honest with you. And, like, they, you know, it takes time for them to learn that this is a boundary that they can't cross anymore. So, yeah, I totally agree with what you're saying. I think that's great. [00:37:01] Speaker B: It's a wild thing, though, because, like, you know, like, I mean, I struggle with my own boundaries and, you know, advocating for myself or, you know, because I've. I've had, uh. I I own the company that, uh, that, uh, I own cadence, and then also I've been a boss for a number of years. I've also had people where they're like, you know, they have to advocate for themselves with me, and then I have to be like, are they right and I'm wrong? Or is this, like, you know, it's like there's that kind of weird thing where you're like, am I being like, a dick? Or is this, like, you know, like, it's such a wild thing. And I think that being on, having had the chance to be on either side and also learn when I'm like, oh, I actually am being a jerk here, like, good on. Good on you. Like, being on. On those things. It's like advocating for yourself and having boundaries and maintaining boundaries is such a complex thing for almost everybody. No, very few people don't struggle with this. The main idea, though, is, like, doing it by degrees, socializing, like, really anticipating. It's not just about the boundaries and the self advocating that you want. It's also recognizing that you do have to. You have an audience that you have to cultivate that with. If you're trying to create a change, whether a boss, you're trying to learn how to, like, chill out, or if you're someone who's trying to create things, it is. It is about recognizing you have to kind of bring an audience with you. [00:38:20] Speaker A: Totally. And I think, you know, you brought up something that actually made me think of, like, this idea of trust. Right? And, like, you know, oftentimes I'll ask people, like, how much do you trust other people, and then how much do you trust yourself? And, like, I have them do a number. And sometimes people, you notice that people have, like, poor boundary setting. They don't trust themselves and they trust other people. Like, I trust that this person is going to do right by me, but might not really be the case. So kind of figuring that out too for yourself to not understand where they're at with that. [00:38:54] Speaker B: Yeah, that's something that, like, you know, when we, when we talk about hardcore that I think is like an interesting thing because it's like, got so much, like, structure about, like, community and we look out for each other and, you know, it's all these, like, ethics and morals. And then sometimes you're like, is that true? Like, are we, like, maybe trusting that a little bit too much? Anyways, we'll get to that. Another part of your story that I really find fascinating is your comfort of pivoting. Like, you are, like, totally comfortable with pivoting and trying new things again. Is that like, a natural thing for you? Is it something you learned? Was it a model of behavior? [00:39:30] Speaker A: No, it was definitely not a model behavior. My father, I mean, maybe my father owned his own company, him and my grandfather. And, like, it was a family business. It's still actually a family business. And everyone kind of worked in there and, like, everyone kind of did that thing, right? So I don't. I don't know, I think it's, again, an innate thing. Like, I love, first of all, I get bored really easily. I know this is a little adhd of me, right? Like, I am also have ADHD. So I know that's part of it, but I also, like, I just love learning. And I think that, like, I spent so much time masking while I was supposed to be learning as a kid that now I just want to learn and grow and try new things all the time because I was afraid that people were going to find out that I was. And I'm using air coats. Dumb, right? Because. Because I had to just try to keep it together. But now I'm like, oh, it doesn't matter if I fail because I'm going to learn from that and then I'll do something else. And so, like, my learning disability and my attention deficit has been, like, I think my greatest gift because it has created this space where it's like, I did this, I masked, and now I don't want to mask anymore because I want to be who I am. And, yeah, so I think that's that. I also, you know, being an art teacher is really hard because you lose jobs really easily. They're gonna cut our jobs. That's what's gonna go. So I think that was part, that was part of it, too, because, like, every year I'd be like, I might not have a job this year. What else could I do? Kind of thing. And that was, I mean, that's another piece of it. Yeah. I just like to. I don't know. I don't know what that is exactly. I think it's me. [00:41:18] Speaker B: Well, the reason I'm asking is, well, totally. Like, that's, that's like a hardcore thing, too, but. So the reason I'm asking is, is for a few reasons. One, it's just like, throughout your career, you're like, totally. You have no problem pivoting. And also that focus of giving people a voice, like, making sure people have a voice through, through art. And. And also, like, in your later career where you'd mentioned, like, people having someone to talk to you, like, people having a way that they could express, like, their suffering or the challenges they're having. That idea of creating options. Basically, when I'll say again, in my work in the corporate world, one of the biggest themes that I have is people feeling stuck. Like, really stuck. I'm in this career that I like, but I don't like the company I'm in, or I like the company I'm in, but I don't like what I do, or I feel like I'm stuck in this role, or I don't know, want to be in the corporate world. I want to go off and be a therapist, or I want to start my own business, or I want to be an artist. People feeling really stuck, but, too, the idea of change and pivoting and trying something new seems daunting because there's all the life implications, like money, like how you're going to retire, like, what's going to happen if you have kids. Like, what's going to happen there? So any thoughts about how people can get a little bit more comfortable with the idea of pivoting or taking risks or challenging or even just finding a voice? [00:42:46] Speaker A: Yeah. So that's so much. Okay, so one golden handcuffs. Right? Like, you're talking about golden handcuffs, hardcore. Right. So, like, being a teacher for as long as I was, I knew exactly how much I was going to get paid. I knew I was going to have summers off. I was going to have vacations. Right. I worked in a district that they paid the teachers well at the end. Like, it's hard and it's scary, and I think, I don't know. I have a spiritual practice, and I think that that has influenced me trusting, because, like, I know in my, in my opinion, this is not everyone I know. I'm not by myself. So, like, I trust in the higher power that is going to help me. And, you know, I think that it's, I think that's part of it. I also think money comes and goes, right? Like, it just, it just does. And I don't think, you know, you talk to, I talk to people who are, you know, in therapy who are, you know, have terminal illnesses. They are not saying, like, man, I wish I worked more at that corporate job or whatever, not to say that it's not good. They're talking about wanting to, you know, spend time and have moments and live life. And I think being willing to look at that and live life is going to give you the. I think, I don't know. For me, it gave me the push to do something different, to know that I'm always going to be okay. Like, it's always going to work out. It always has. I mean, it's worked out, and I think it can work out for someone else who's afraid. I know people have done this, and I don't think there's anything wrong with this is stay in your corporate job for a while and start your other career. I hate seeing side hustle. It's so corny. Sorry. But, like, start it. Start your, your business. And that's actually what I did when I was teaching. I started working as a therapist part time while I was teaching, and it kind of made a little bit more of that safety net. I knew that I had the ability to change people's lives in the way that I had maybe an education, I could continue to do that in a different capacity. And I think that that, like, if we have our own, like, kind of mission, like our own personal mission or our own vision statement or anything like that, I think my vision has always been, I want to give a voice to people who don't feel like they have a voice. And I kind of have just taken that with me with every kind of pivot that I've made. [00:45:21] Speaker B: I love what you're saying about build it up on the side, and one of the things I encourage people to think about is your passion doesn't always have to be your gag, right? You can start it up on the side and just enjoy doing it and have these moments of just totally being engaged in your passion while also still having a really great paying job. Or maybe it's a crappy job, but a poor paying job, but it's keeping the lights on, keeping a. Keeping a core of stability while either you build something up in the background that will eventually become your thing or at least get your kind of like toes wet, see how it goes, see if you actually like it. Or just keep it as a side thing entirely the whole time while also doing this thing. There's nothing wrong with that. One of the things I really try and encourage people to do is like, this is like, life is not like a tv show where everything has to be these like ultra definitive dramatic moves. Like, it ends with the story arc that life, it really is like seasons that are going to continue. It doesn't end in half an hour or two hour window. And that you really do have to treat it as something that you cultivate and try over time. The other thing I really encourage people to comfortable with, and this is going to sound like real morbid, I encourage people to get very, very comfortable with the idea of death. But I don't mean in this, like in like a terrible, like death. It's like, well, no, just like recognize that the death is like a realistic thing. And whatever anyone's spiritual belief is about after the moment of death is up to them, but that there is an unknown, finite amount of time they're going to be on this planet. And we should be using that as a goal of like, we shouldn't always be living in the future or engaging with the past. That like, each moment should be measured as like, hey, this is a diminishing clock that I'm. That I'm working with right now. And I should be trying my hardest to engage in life in a way that's like meaningful to me, that offers like, happiness offers like, you know, all of the things while also recognizing that there's going to be moments of toil and challenge and difficulty and that's in there as well. [00:47:23] Speaker A: Totally. And I'm sure you know that. So I'm just going to say it because maybe that you're, you know, people who listen to your podcast don't like anxiety is being too much in the future and depression is hanging out too much in the past. And if you focus, if you focus your life in that way, this is where you're going to have more anxiety or depression. And I think that that makes it more difficult to move forward, to have purpose in your life. [00:47:50] Speaker B: My wife and I were just on vacation and I heard it was sick. But like, the thing that always happens to me the first few days of vacation is I go through this insane, like, anxiety burst where I'm like, oh, my God. The company's gonna go bankrupt. Even if we're doing really great. I'm like, the God is I kind of have to lay everyone off, and that's, like, stage one. And then stage two is like, oh, my God. Like, you know, like, look at this. My path. I could have done this. I should have done that. And it's always, like, a couple days, and it's the same thing whenever we go on vacation. I just, like, I feel it coming, and I push it down because I don't want to, like, bother my wife with it, and she knows something's going on. She just kind of waits for me to talk about it. And usually about day three, I'm like, I get it taken care of, and then we go on, and then I'm like, I'm on vacation. It's, like, happens almost every single time. [00:48:47] Speaker A: It's funny because my husband is. My husband's a teacher, and he actually has a handyman business on the side, and he's a musician. And I'm always like, my favorite town is vacation donna. Like, because I am so. I'm the same way. I'm like, oh, my God. Like, I'm not seeing clients. Like, not only am I spending money on vacation, but now I'm not making money. Like, I'm doing, like, I do that for, like, a minute, but, like, vacation don is, like, he's chill because he has his paycheck, right? Like, because he's a teacher, and he has, like, he's good, and he's super calm and, like, very logical, and I get, like, all emotional, and he's like, it's okay. You'll be fine. [00:49:27] Speaker B: Isn't it so hilarious? So I do want to talk about something again in your story that's sensitive, and you brought it up, and we'll go wherever you want to go, including just moving on. You'd mentioned the loss of someone very close for you and how that kind of, like, set you on a new path. What could you share with that? [00:49:47] Speaker A: I mean, I totally have no problem sharing that whole story. I actually was interviewed for a book recently about, like, the most tragic thing that happened in your life and how it impacted you, how it impacts you. And so this person who I dated in high school, so we dated on and off from, like, 16 to 23. We were both, like, hardcore kids, like, into music. He got into heroin, and he got into just partying. And, like, at first, I think he started, like, going in people's cabinets and, like, getting prescription drugs and stuff at parties and stuff, and we kept on breaking up and getting back together. And when I went to grad school when I was 23, he told me, like, I smoked heroin for the first time. And I was like, oh, my God, please don't ever, you know, you know, use a needle. He's like, you know, I'm afraid. Like, I already knew this. I'm like, I'm afraid of needles. I'm like, okay. He ended up, you know, intervenously drug user. He went to rehab. We reconnected. I was married to someone else at the time, and just, like, I knew I couldn't be around him because he was my drug of choice, I'll just put it that way. And it was very difficult and so many years. I was married to my first husband for 14 and a half years. He, you know, he would come in and out of my life, and if he was using, he wasn't using. He was using. And then I don't know if he found out I got divorced. But, like, six months after I got divorced, he called me or messaged me. I can't remember. You messaged me. And he was like, I've been clean for over a year. I really want to see you. So we, like, immediately got back together. Like, it was like high school all over again. And he lied. He was not clean. He might have been clean, like, the first three months we were together, and he started doing, like, wild things in my house. I'm like, I didn't know. Like, I. I mean, maybe I didn't know, but I didn't know. Like, I told myself I didn't know. And he would. He was stealing money from me because I was personal training more at this time, so I'd have a lot of cash in my house, and then I'd be like, oh, I must have counted that money wrong. Like, really silly things. He's like, I would be sleeping, and he would steal my car at night and buy drugs. And I did not know any. I really didn't know any of this was going. He ended up going to jail for a little bit. I ended up taking him back. It was, like, a hot mess. And then I got worried that, like, I could lose my kids because he's so wild. And I was being wild. Like, my behavior changed. I had addict like behavior, and so I was lying for him. I was covering things up. I paid thousands of dollars for him to live somewhere because he didn't have a job, like, I would do. I was doing all these really wild things, and he. We broke up because he actually almost. I thought he was going to burn my house down because he nodded out and he smoked, which is crazy because I've been straight again, straight edge my whole life. Like, I do not use drugs or alcohol. I don't even drink caffeine. And he nodded out and was smoking a cigarette over my recycle bin, and it was full of paper and it on fire. And like, I was like this. I have to. I have to let him go. And so we broke up and. And then he started doing crazy things. Like, he would go on my social media and pretend he was me. And he started sexting other people, pretending it was me while I was teaching. And then he sent the sexting stuff to my principal and said that he was a concerned parent. And then daughter saw this. I had to get a PPO. It was like. It was very tumultuous. It was like, crazy relation. It sounded like it was like out of a movie, right? It did not feel like real life. And I was a mess. Like, I am not naturally a depressed person at all. If my kids were not in my house, I laid in bed, did not come out of bed, did not do dishes, did not clean my house. I got up to go to work. I was able to function enough to work and to take care of my kids, but that was it. And then he tried to get back together with me and things, and I just was like, this is not good. And he catfished me once and pretended he was someone else. It was wild, just all these wild things. And we were not talking. And his mom called me, and I was at a friend's house, and I. And I. And I didn't answer the phone, and I said. I said, dennis, that's his name, overdosed. And knowing before I even listened to the call, like, there's no other reason why she's calling me. And I listened and he did. And it was the most, like, heartbreaking thing that I've ever dealt with when it comes to death. Like, I am a pretty, like, logical person with death. Like, it happens. People die, you know, but because. Because he had so much potential. Like, you know, we've known each other since we were. We knew each other since we were kids. He was so smart and he was. He started a label with one of our friends and then ended up, you know, doing pretty well for a while in the late nineties and two thousands. Like, he had all these things. He was a chef, and he was great at that, but he just had such a difficult life that he want. I mean, he wanted to die. I think it was purposeful. He sent me an email saying, like, you're the only one who knows how. What I want after I leave my body. And I spent a long time in therapy myself and went to Al Anon meetings almost every day for two years. And, you know, about six months, eight months afterwards, I was like, I have to help. I have to help people. I can't. I can't allow people to die in this way and not have, you know, because for a long time, I thought I could just love him enough to make him better, but that wasn't the case. So. Yeah, so that's actually why I decided to go into therapy, which I actually think I always wanted to be a therapist, but I. I never really had the push, and I think that was really my push to go into it. And I am so sad that that happened to him, and I'm so sad for his mother because both of her children died of heroin overdoses. But this tragic thing happened and changed my life. At the time, it was really negative, but now it's, like, the most positive thing that I think that could have happened for me to move forward. I think I took something terrible to and make it really positive now. And I think that that's an important part of pivoting, too. [00:56:38] Speaker B: Yeah. Thinking about the idea of the most tragic things happen or most painful things you've happened, and then turning it into something that is meaningful or important for yourself or for other people. I mean, that's like, a conversation that I think is, like, you know, it's out there. Like, people talk about that. There's good examples of it, but in the moment, again, it's not like flipping a switch. Like, it's something happens on a Wednesday, and by, like, Thursday, you're like, no, it's this uplifting thing. It's a process. So you talked about, like, going to therapy, but how long did it actually take you to take this thing? And I also, like, just hear about, like, what the process was. How long did it take you to take this terrible event and turn it into something that could give. Could give to others and including yourself? [00:57:23] Speaker A: So, I mean, I really want to. I really want to say that I think I started doing the work before he died. Like, a year before he died, I started doing work, maybe even a little bit more. And by. So he died in December, and by April, I was already enrolled in school. So, I mean, I was gutted. I was devastated. Like, I mean, I still, like, I still get misty about talking about it. It's difficult. He was. He was, for the longest time, the most important person in my life. And, yeah, I mean, like, I did a lot of work in therapy for, I would say, two and a half years of therapy, like, every week, you know, really trying to figure out my part, because I had a part in us, you know, not in the part of him dying and using heroin. The part of it, you know, I really, like, I enabled him so much, and I put my kids at risk, and I had to really look at myself. Why did I do that? Why was that such an important thing for me to do? Really being able to look at yourself, I think, is how you figure out who you are and where you need to go and how to make a difference in this world. [00:58:47] Speaker B: So, like, I went through a period in my life I've always been, like, a very, like, I love doing stuff. Like, I like. I like doing a band, doing a record label. I like going to school. Like, I. I've always been ultra busy. And part of it was just, like, you know, like, a person who's, like, maybe not ready to deal with, like, whatever's going on inside of them, so they're constantly, like, involved in stuff. And also part of it's just, like, I love doing stuff. I love bringing people together. I love making things. And I had just had this life that was just, like, a massive adventure ever since I was a kid. Like, just doing all this stuff, traveling, doing all these things. I hit a point in 2016 where a bunch of stuff all kind of, like, went off the rails and, like, in a pretty crazy. Like, not pretty crazy. It's, like, the most intense period of my life is, like, 2016 to about 2020. It was about four. And I'd say it even went even a little bit further than that. Probably about six years of just, like, living hell, and there was just, like, thing after thing after thing that happened, including, like, my dad getting sick, like, all of this stuff. Right. You know, pandemic in there as well. Like, all this shit. And it was, like, about a six year period, or I. Like, I just was like, I don't. I don't know how I'm gonna get through this. It was so awful and so crazy. But also at that time, like, the greatest things in my life that had ever happened. In my life ever happened. You know, I met my. I met my wife, Monica, and she brought with her into our relationship these two wonderful girls. I had had my first. My first child, who's six. I started cadence, but at that time, it was, like, who I was was eradicated. My self confidence went out the window, all of it. I was decimated as a human being. The best things that have ever come, the best version of me is now 100% as a result of that. I'm doing the best work I've ever done. I think I'm the best partner I could ever be, the best father I could ever be, the best friend I could ever be, best business owner I could ever be. But doing that was not like this again, this, like, wonderful story arc of, like, you know, the beautiful music came in the background, and I was like, I shall turn this. It was like, I don't know how I'm going to get through today. I feel like I just can literally not make it through this day. Anxiety through the roof, all of that stuff. But it was, like, literally as corny as it sounds, it was just about, like, get out of bed, make your bed, open the windows, take a shower, put on a shirt. Like, do your zoom, call with your team. Like, make that meeting, put your anxiety aside. Have that phone call with that client. It was one step, one step, one step. But also, at the same time, I was seeing a therapist every week for, like, a few years. I did the things that I needed to do, like, get off social media, reduce my circle of friends, like, really intently, and not say anything negative about anyone. It just pull in my perspective a lot. [01:02:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:02:02] Speaker B: Really look at myself in the mirror about the good things, the neutral things, the shithead things, and really, like, make peace with those things and make the changes. Took me a long time, but, like, throughout all of that, I was doing what I would say, arguably, are some of the things that I'm the most proud of in my entire life in that period, while also going through, like, the worst shit. And I don't know, like, well, I don't know if, like, everybody needs to go through this in a life. I do. I do think, like, I think it's really easy to say, like, romanticize the ideas. Like, your worst situation leads to your biggest thing, your greatest thing. But it actually was true for me, and it sounds like it was true for you as well. [01:02:42] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I wouldn't have met my husband either if I didn't go through all this, right? So, you know, and he absolutely makes me a better version of myself, you know? And I'm more spiritually connected because of that relationship. I'm more spiritually connected because of all the things that I think I went through. And it was fucking hard, and it sucked, and I really was angry for a long time, and it was actually around the same time as you. Like, I was really angry in 2016, 2017. It was really hard and I didn't understand why my life was so hard. Like, I would say that all the time. Like, why does my life always have to be so hard? Why the other people seem like their life isn't so hard? And I think, you know, I don't know. It was hard for a reason. So it's all good. [01:03:34] Speaker B: Totally. All right, so let's. Let's get into. Well, actually, before we get into where today we're kind of skirted around a little bit. We have a shared passion, a shared interest, shared community. Tell us about how you found punk and hardcore and the role it's played in your life. [01:03:50] Speaker A: So, like many middle school girls, I had a crush on a boy. His name was Chris Riley. He's still out there. Hi, Chris Riley. And he made me a mixtape from, like, the college radio station. I think I was twelve, right? And he had older siblings and, like, I don't know, like, it became my thing. Like, I was so excited about this mixtape and I remember, like, bitch and Camaro was on there. So silly and, like, there's, you know, dead Kennedy's on there and, you know, black flag. And I was just like, oh, my God, this is it. Like, everyone was, like, really into Michael Jackson and Prince was starting to become a thing and I was just like, I need something more. Like, I was in third grade and, like, people were having, like, Sean Cassidy on there while I had the stray cats on my. Wow. Right? Like, I was definitely going on a different, different vein and. Yeah, so I was like, 1314 years old. My. My parents, I have an older brother who's three years older than me and, like, these things would not happen now in 2024. But, like, in 1983 ish, my parents left us alone. Like, home. Like, they would go on vacation and we'd be home. So I started going to, like, shows and stuff when I was, like, 1314 and saw negative approach, saw almighty lumberjacks discuss. I mean, I've seen, like, I've probably seen agnostic front. And second of all, like, I don't even know how many times. Like, a lot of great hardcore bands from New York came through Detroit and that was kind of my thing. And it felt like, I felt like I could be me there more than, like, because I grew up in a pretty affluent neighborhood in Michigan and I never felt like, even though my parents had money, like, I never felt like that was who I was. I just didn't fit that. And so, yeah, I started hanging out in Detroit, like, for sure, 1314 years old for sure, all the time, and had a fake id and started going to clubs and doing the whole thing and saw youth of the day, 1988 at blondies. And, you know, like, I just have these memories of these shows and it. It just became such a big part of who I was and, like, I wasn't there to hold anyone's coat, right? So, like, that was, like, a big thing for women at the time or girls at the time. A lot of girls were girlfriends and then they come and go, but I just never did at that time. It's so different now. Like, I don't know if you've been to a hardcore show now, not like that at all. But, yeah, so that's kind of where it all started. Thanks to Chris Reilly. [01:06:32] Speaker B: If we go back to, like, your early story and living with dyslexia and kind of having a little bit of that, like, outsider experience in the education system, do you think that played it all into your entry into. [01:06:46] Speaker A: For sure? Because, like, again, I went to, like, probably one of the best schools in Michigan, right? Like, you know, middle school, high school, and, you know, kids just did, you know, they were into their thing. And I was always a little bit on the outside. Like, in middle school, I got voted, like, least likely to succeed kind of thing. And I was like, that's fine. Like, I was like, you know, cutting out my jeans and putting safety pins in them and dyeing them and, like, trying to figure it all out. I bought loosen up was the first album I ever bought a by myself. And I was like, yes, I do think that I was an. I was an outsider who for a long time thought that I needed to fit in because that's what I was told to do, but it didn't work for me, so I did my own thing. [01:07:35] Speaker B: Yeah, I found pucker. [01:07:37] Speaker A: How about you? [01:07:38] Speaker B: Yeah, I found punk and hardcore through skateboarding, but I found skateboarding through being, like, a outsider. So I grew up in Calgary, Alberta, and my both my parents are, were immigrants, and they came from a ethnically diverse marriage, a culturally diverse marriage. Like, my father is armenian, my mom is irish, which today I don't think anyone would blink, like, bat an eye at. But back then, it was like they're marrying out their cultures. It was a huge deal. They met in Africa, they traveled all over the world, and then they moved to Montreal where they had meat when I was five. Up until I was five, I was always surrounded by family because my armenian family was in Montreal. But then my dad got transferred to Alberta, and, like, suddenly I was this kid with this very exotic sounding name, like Aram Arslanian. But I'm surrounded by kids with, like, Jack and Sally. And it was like, day one. People are, like, calling my family, like, all sorts of names. I'm, like, fighting at school, like, literally from day one. And so I'd gone from this, like, totally surrounded by, like, comfort, love, all of that kind of stuff, like, extended family, to suddenly we were like, the, the immigrants in the neighborhood. Even though both my sister and I were. Well, I was born in Canada. My sister was. Was born outside of the country. And it was like a weird combination of, like, deeply trying to fit in, like, trying to fit in as much as I can, and also, like, recognizing I was going to have to fight constantly. So getting, like, I got kicked out of school for fighting and, like, constantly suspended and all this stuff. So I was this kid that was, like, deeply wanted to fit in and, like, would do anything he could to fit in, but also would, like, fight if I had to at the drop of the hat, which was, like, really often in Calgary. And actually, I have to say, this is like, the something I appreciate about Calgary culture is, like, there was always just kind of a, like, if you got a problem, you fight, you know? Like, I know that sounds terrible, but there was kind of a simplicity thing, I think it was. There's kind of a simplicity about it. Like, you just fight and then at the end you shake hands and that. That's the end of it, you know? I'm not recommending that for anyone, but, like, when I grew up, as I got older, I always kind of carried that mentality. If you have a problem, you fight. And then, like, I entered into British Columbia, which is quite a bit different, and then I was like, oh, my God, did I grow up around maniacs? Am I a maniac? Anyways, I skateboarding. As soon as I found skateboarding, I was like, this is it for me. Because it gave me a voice, because it came with, like, art and intact culture and a uniform and a way of dressing. And there was videos and music, and I was like, okay, so I've been completely told I am not part of this, but I can choose to be a part of this. I don't need a team to do this. I can totally do it on my own or with a group of people. It doesn't matter if you're good or if you're bad at it. You can express for yourself however you want and how you dress, all of the stuff. And it just like clicked. And then the next level of that was like punk and hardcore, which I found as a result of that, like, you know, pus head and like pus zone, we'd be like, oh, you check out all these bands. I'd be like finding all these bands. And when I found punk and hardcore, my parents, even today, like, they'll, they'll say it's like, well, it's good that you went to university, it's good that you did all these things. But they truly say it's like you're greatest education was punk and hardcore and touring and seeing the world because that's actually what set you up to be a human being in the world. Because my self confidence was so low about like when I entered into the workforce, like little teenager getting jobs and stuff, I just assumed I would go in and everyone was going to be terrible. So I would just be like, I don't know if aggressive is the right word, but like, I'd be more like, I reject you before you have a chance to reject me. And I had a total chip on my shoulder. And the more I played in punk and hardcore, the more I saw the world I like calmed down quite a bit. And it helped me, like, especially trying to get things done with different groups of people in diverse areas. Like, you know, you gotta go to different countries and kind of like norming, norming with different groups of people. It really helped me, like, calm down, find my space. The biggest thing that I cared for the longest time was like this deep sense of, of needing to be liked by people and like fit in. Even in punk and hardcore, it was like a real difficulty for me. And the thing that, like, well, the thing that, like, I'd say, like, trained me out of it was going through like the biggest life difficulty. That 2016 period where I was like, my life just was totally like destroyed. It was the thing that finally, like broke me of that, but it was, that was like my biggest achilles heel, which is like initially what brought me into drugs and alcohol and addiction and all of that, but also it's what brought me into straight edge and like, and all of those things. So like, punk and hardcore was like this huge, huge gift to me. But also it was like one of those things where it's like I became over reliant on it and it became like my shield against the world. Instead of being like, really well, you know, I have to be in the world. I can't just live in this little thing. So it was, I'd say 80%. Well, actually, it was 100% a blessing in my life. But the way that I interacted with it turned. Made it a bit of a curse in my life for a while until I. Until I had the right experiences to train me out of that. [01:12:46] Speaker A: No, that makes total sense. It's funny that you say skateboarding also, because I manage a skateboard shop in high school and I was really involved in skateboarding also. I still am. I don't skate, but in some ways, a lot of people I talk to in the hardcore community, almost all of them are skateboarding first and then hardcore. And I'm always like, that's so interesting. I do see that common theme that people felt like outsiders, but then within the community of hardcore and punk, they still wanted to be liked. And I think that that's also a universal thing. And so I think it's so cool that your parents were like, that's the greatest, you know, education that you had because I think that's a great lesson in learning about other people and how they interact, but also knowing that a lot of us have the same insecurities. [01:13:41] Speaker B: Two things I'll share with that. [01:13:43] Speaker A: Okay. [01:13:44] Speaker B: One time someone said to me in kind of like, not kind of like a totally mean way, it was like. And this, like, in the hardcore world, it's like, you know what your problem is? You just want everyone to like you. And I was like, yeah, that. That is like 100. Like, why is that a mystery to you or to me? Like, that. That is. Haven't I just, like, written a bunch of songs about that? Like, that is this thing that had fueled me and it's this thing that, like, it really took me a long time to work on. And even at, like, again, I'll be. I'll be 50 soon, even. There's still moments where I'm like, I just want you to like me. But, like, now I understand. I understand what that thing is. But the other thing, it was something that I'd heard someone say about. Someone said this to me about Ragnath in, like, a really negative way about. About him. Because, like, for anyone who's new to the show, I'm like a humongous youth of today fan. Like, most pivotal band them in 7 seconds. Most pivotal bands of my life. [01:14:40] Speaker A: Best both of them. [01:14:43] Speaker B: I was talking to someone who had a level of experience with Ray Kappo. I won't go into it into the. I don't want to. I don't want to blow up the person's spot. But they're like, well, you know the thing about that guy, he, all those songs that he wrote, he's not really like that. He just wishes he was like that. And I was like, well, yeah. Isn't that like the point of writing a song? It's something you aspire to being like. You see it in yourself. Like, if I think of like a youth of today song, like honesty, which I love that song, honesty. [01:15:12] Speaker A: It's a great song. [01:15:13] Speaker B: It's a great song. It's not like Ragatha was like, well, you know what? I'm this immensely honest person and I'm going to talk about, and I'm using myself as the landscape here. It's like he's probably like, I'm a shithead and I lie to people about stuff and I don't want to be like that anymore. Wouldn't it be cool if I wasn't like that? Maybe we all couldn't, could try strive to be like that. So the idea of change and becoming like a better person, like when people talk about it from the space of perfectionism, and again, like, I talk about this a lot in corporate culture where people will be like, this is what our corporate culture is. And it's this like beautiful thing, but they feel like almost as if ten people in a room writing that then makes that reality for everyone. When it's like, well, no, like, that's awesome you did that, but it's something you aspire to. So again, going back to the Ray Kappa story, when this person said that to me, I was like, well, yeah, of course. Like you think like every single youth of today song or gorilla biscuit song or CRO Mag song or whatever band you think they're writing like that because that's who they were. Or is it? Do you think that it's who they're aspiring to be? And they have kind of days where they're more like that and days where they're not like that. And like, we kind of got into this back and forth and then I was like, I'm a fucking grown adult and I'm arguing with this person about the motivations of Ray Kappa when he was 20 years old. I don't want to be in this conversation right now. [01:16:31] Speaker A: Well, I will say because I know him well and I mean well enough. And I actually interviewed him yesterday for my podcast. [01:16:39] Speaker B: Awesome. [01:16:40] Speaker A: And I asked him, and this is just important to know for people because I said if you could tell your 16 1718 year old self like anything, you know, as an adult, knowing what you know now, what would it be? And he's like. He was, like, stumped. And then he, you know, he said something about maybe I shouldn't have been such an asshole. And then he's like, but you know what? Being an asshole was got me where I am right now. So I think it was important for me to have that. Have that moment. And I'm like, beautiful honesty, right? Like, we all do things, and they get that. It gets us to where we need to be. And it might not look perfect or right or good to someone else, but it doesn't mean that we're not trying to strive for something better. Like you were saying. [01:17:27] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, again, like, putting this. Like, we put in both the therapeutic world but also the coaching world. I talk to people a lot about, like, being aspirational about stuff, and I give them an idea of, like, a 70 30 split. And if you think of anything you want, let's say, company culture, or a way that you want to walk in the world, if you just say, I am that period, it's an untenable scenario because, like, we're human beings. And so if you're saying it for yourself, that's one thing. But if you're saying it for you and two other people, or three other people or ten people or whole organization, it's untenable. But if you think of it from an aspirational space where I aspire to be this way, minimum 70% on average, and on the other 30%, I can quickly recognize that I'm not in that 70%. And I have the insight, the skills and behaviors to be able to quickly, as quickly as I can get back to that 70%. I'm not telling people to aim for 70% as an always number, but that you start at, you aspire to be that way 70% of the time, and then you scale up. And the way that I encourage people to think about it, both organizationally but also individually, is like, you're always looking for a reduction in frequency, duration, and impact of behaviors that you don't like, so you want them to have happen less often. You want them that when they inevitably happen, the duration of them is shorter. And then if the frequency goes down and the duration goes down, the impact should be less and less. At the same time, you want to look for an increase of frequency, duration, and impact for things that you do like. And so this is, like, really about, like, behavior identification, like, you know, trigger points, all that kind of stuff. Stuff both, like, at a systems level and individual level. And I do this stuff with myself, like, frequency, duration and impact around behavior change is an important way of looking at it, where you shoot for an average of 70 30 and then you scale up from there. I use it as the, like, perfection extinction model where it's like you're never going to be perfect and most behaviors aren't going to go extinct. Like, there's some give and play in there and then start with 70 30 and scale up. And there's some things that I'm, like, way better at. So, like, you know, like, I talked about being. I'm like the best partner that I've ever been in my life. There's all sorts of shithead, like, immature, selfish behaviors that, like, I've, like, grown out of and that doesn't mean I never do them. But it's like, instead of that being something that was kind of like the forefront of my behaviors, like, as an example, hardcore. Hardcore ever always came first before any personal relationship I ever had. Where now it's like, you know, I would never, ever, ever put, like, something hardcore before my wife. Never ever, ever. But that was something I had to, like, scale up towards. I know that sounds crazy, but, like. [01:20:09] Speaker A: No, it doesn't sound crazy. No, I mean, I'll be honest. Like, I think the demise of my first marriage had a lot to do with, like, some selfish behavior that I had, you know, and just like, wanting to hang out and be around, you know, hardcore people. Because he was like, he. Normie, he was like such a normal dude. Like, he was like a frat guy, right? And, like, my family loved him and he was awesome. He's a great dad and we have a great co parenting relationship. But I was probably pretty selfish because I was like, I wanted to split. I remember going to see, like, sick of it all with one of my male friends. Like, is that what you do when you're married? I don't really know if that's what you do when you're married to, but I was doing it all the time. Right. [01:20:53] Speaker B: So, like, it's so, it's so funny. Anyways, I don't want to get too far off track, but the idea of perfectionism and really this came from this Ray, this Ray Kappel conversation. But something that I've. I did want to touch base with you on around punk and hardcore, something that appealed to me a lot was it kind of put forth this, like, moral framework and of course, depending on what kind of style of hardcore you're involved in, it's going to vary, but the most basic one is that we are a community and we look out for each other and you should trust the person to your left and the person to your right. And I think at a very, very simplistic level that can be true. But we are also talking about people who grew up and possibly their families of origin lived with addiction or mental health concerns or abuse. There's young people finding themselves, there's all of this stuff. And I think the idea of kind of people, the promise that punk and hardcore has that we all look out for each other, we all give each other his back is pretty wavery when we get into the complexity of human beings growing up and there's power dynamics and all that. So I was interested in your thoughts on that. [01:22:08] Speaker A: Yeah, no, it's totally true. And I think it's an interesting thing because, you know, before we started recording, I was telling you that it was just like me and my one friend who are still like these straight edge, straight edge 52 year olds, right? Like, we're still out here calling ourselves straight edge kids. So weird. But I do think it really depended on like the sect of the, you know, music that you were into. And I think I, I really identify and I'm able to really, like, I know that people would look out for me in like the straight edge hardcore community now. Like, Detroit's a huge, was like a huge beat down as, you know, a huge beat down, like, which, like, people would fight a lot. And there was like lots of, there's stuff with Nazis and like, lots of that. Not the same kind of safety. Right. And I think, you know, there is definitely areas, you know, who your friends are. And I think that's just like that in the world, right? In the world and within the communities, I think you could always find it. I do think again, growing up in the eighties, it's different for being female. I think people looked out for me more than. Other than males. Right. I'm just going to be very honest. Like, I do think that that was a true truth. And especially in Detroit, like, because, you know, the punk kids who lived on the streets knew me and then, you know, like, the straight edge kids knew me and I was kind of cool with everybody. I think I had more of that capacity where I had, you know, people looking out for me all the time and having community and really feeling a part of a community. I don't know if that's true for everybody, though. [01:23:53] Speaker B: I love, I love what you just said there. And, and I think, I think what it's true. It's your experience and it's true. I'm going to give you a different angle that I think about a lot and I really consider a lot is someone could be vegan and still be a total bastard. Someone could be straight edge and still be a total piece of shit. Like, yes, someone could be part of punk and hardcore and listen to the exact same bands that you like and have a lot of the same silver life experiences. And that doesn't mean that they're nothing going to take advantage of you and do something shitty and totally. And also how we can have friends and people in our lives that we love and respect and not and unintentionally dismiss some of their negative behaviors because we're all part of this thing. And one of the things that I really encourage anyone that's part of any subculture that has any kind of moral component is people are complex and life is complex. And some of the moral or community foundations that I think punk and hardcore proposes to have are totally legit. And I think some of them are difficult to just fully trust. And I think that people really got to always really hold up a mirror for themselves and their behaviors and really hold up a mirror and also challenge their friends and pay attention to what's going on around them because, like, life is complex and human beings are complex. [01:25:19] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. You're totally right. [01:25:23] Speaker B: All right, so listen, we're heading towards the close of the interview and this has been like super cool, but I just want to hear about your practice and how people engage with you. Like, you know, I just want to hear about your day to day, like, what you do, how you do it, and then how people can find you, engage with you. Because I am sure that people are going to be very interested in connecting with you after this. [01:25:45] Speaker A: So I am a workaholic. So just so everyone knows that I don't have a very good work life. Balance it also, I think, is because my husband lives out of state, I try to balance it more when we're together. But when we're not together, I work 60 hours a week sometimes. So like, I. Yeah, I mean, like, I started working at 09:00 a.m. i'm not done till nine tonight. So as soon as we get off, I have a 05:00 client. My practice is I do a lot of one on ones. I love group and I don't get to do enough group. So I'm hoping actually to do coaching groups where I'm, you know, having a topic and people are interested in really getting involved in that. My Monday, Tuesday, Wednesdays, I'm usually working twelve to 14 hours. I have my daughter Wednesday nights. She dances, though. She's 17, she'll be 17. She dances. So I don't. When I'm done, she's done dancing. And then Thursday and Friday are later days for me because I have her and she's around more. And then Saturdays are later. But Sunday through Thursday, Sunday through Wednesday are pretty wild days for me. And I also do my podcast in between. So, yeah, I have. I mean, I have a wild schedule. Like, people think it's hilarious. Like, I wake up at 430 in the morning, I chant in the morning. I, you know, walk a few miles. I work out in the gym. I, you know, like, I'm very, like, I'm very regimented. I go to sleep at the same, approximately the same time. Like, I have to be regimented. Otherwise I, like, literally will do nothing and just doom squirrel on social media. So to get ahold of me, honestly, the best ways to get ahold of me are Instagram, honestly, which I feel funny because we just talked about it not using social media, but I. I'm on Instagram. It's the hardcore therapist. You can email me at thehardcoretherapistmail, or my website is thehardcoretherapist.com. and I do want to say I do sell merch, and all my merch proceeds go to underinsured and uninsured people for mental health. That's how people get a hold of me. [01:27:48] Speaker B: We're about to go into what we call the crucial three, which is going to be three questions that are scale and difficulty. But before we get to that, what can you tell us about your podcast? [01:28:00] Speaker A: So my podcast, the hardcore therapist podcast, I know I'm very on brand all the time. So on Wednesdays, I put it out. I have people in the community ask me questions, a question, and I spend anywhere from ten to 20 minutes answering that question. So, like, this week was about, what do I do if my partner doesn't want to get help? And I spend the whole time just talking about that subject. And then on Fridays, I interview people from the hardcore community and punk community, and we talk about, like, why hardcore for them, and then talk about their stories. So you can find me on all platforms. [01:28:37] Speaker B: I'm there, and we'll make sure to put all the links to that in the episode. Is there anything that you want? So before we get to the crucial three, anything you want to put in, any shout outs, any questions you want to ask, anything that you want to raise? [01:28:50] Speaker A: No, because, no, I'm afraid. I'm afraid about these three questions. I'm gonna lie. [01:28:56] Speaker B: They're gonna get hard. They're gonna get hurt. [01:28:58] Speaker A: I'm, like, stressing out just thinking about them. No one got em wrong. [01:29:02] Speaker B: Okay, you ready to go? [01:29:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:29:06] Speaker B: Since you rebranded to the hardcore therapist and you've kind of like. And I love when you said, like, I'm on brand. I love that. I think it's. That's sick. I love that you have merch. I love that how you use the merch. I. I am a. I have a saying. You have to 100% believe your own shit and be completely willing to be told you're full of shit at the same time. And then, like, if you believe your own shit, you should be able to, like, respond. But also if you believe your own shit, if someone points something out, you're like, hell, yeah, great, thank you. You're right. I'm going to be able to adjust to that. So being on brand to me, is like, that's killer. I love that. But since you've done this, you've made this pivot. You're all in. You've got this brand. What is one thing that you've learned about yourself as a hardcore therapist that you recognize? You need to still keep working on? [01:29:56] Speaker A: I need to keep working on people liking me or, like, I get really worried if people don't listen to episodes, and I get really concerned about people not, like, going to a festival and people not buying my merch and not being that interested in what I have to do. And I have to realize that it's not necessarily me. It could be whatever they're going through, and sometimes I have a hard time doing that. That would probably be the thing I still need to work on the most. [01:30:23] Speaker B: Question number two. What's one thing that you have identified yourself that you need to work on that you no longer. You have essentially, I don't want to say made it extinct, but you've gotten into a place where you can leave it alone. And how did you get there? [01:30:40] Speaker A: That is a super hard question, I think, for me. No, I was going to say body image. That is totally not true. I totally freak out about my body all the time, so I can talk more neutral about my body, but that would not be it if my parents are listening. I'm sorry. Being so worried about my parents and their thoughts about what I'm doing, if I'm doing the right thing in the wrong thing. I grew up in a, like, my family is like this jewish family who is like, if I'm not doing it their way, it's a real issue. And I still struggled with that up until, honestly, my marriage and my husband has really helped me with that. [01:31:25] Speaker B: Heck yeah. All right, third question. This one's a doozy. [01:31:30] Speaker A: Okay. That last one is a doozy. [01:31:34] Speaker B: It can be. It can be from anywhere in the world, but it is completely centered in punk and hardcore. What are the three, from your perspective? So it doesn't have to be anyone else's perspective. What are the three most. What are the three best records to inspire change in someone's life? [01:31:55] Speaker A: It's so hard. Break down the walls would be my number one. This is really hard because I'm less, like, racking my brain now. Why is this so hard to answer? [01:32:23] Speaker B: This is like, I think about this. [01:32:26] Speaker A: Sweating right now trying to answer this question. I mean, I could have gone, like, bands. I could have been like, yes, these bands. I do think for me, again, pretty much shelters entire catalog, to be honest. I can't pick one and burn. Self titled seven inch. That came out in. That would be it. That would be my. My three there. [01:33:11] Speaker B: That's so good that. That bird, seven inches, like, outrageous. [01:33:14] Speaker A: Oh, my God. I could listen that every day of my life. And, like, it's so bad. [01:33:21] Speaker B: There's so much. We could do a whole podcast on that. That one record. All right, listen, this was an awesome conversation. You totally rock. Anything that you wanted to say before we're closing off? [01:33:34] Speaker A: No, I just hope that people feel comfortable getting the mental health help that they need and know that everyone needs to reach out for help. And it's not a weakness, it's a strength. Would be it? [01:33:46] Speaker B: Heck yeah. [01:33:47] Speaker A: Super hardcore review. [01:33:50] Speaker B: This is great. Everyone listening. Like, you know, I know I kind of joked earlier about the idea of, like, how I. There's people from all sorts of backgrounds that are on the show, but very often I have people with punk and hardcore. Those are the ones I kind of have. I don't say the most fun with, but there. There's always kind of like, that, the subtext of hardcore in there. And the thing I want to say is, like, listen, you know, you don't have to come from any kind of, like, subculture to create change or to figure things out. But I will say that figuring stuff out really does require people to pivot, to be able to take a leap, take a hard look in the mirror, to take risks and do all those things. And so much of what we talked about today with Sarah and if those are things that you struggle with and you do want to create some change, you want to figure some things out, life won't wait, you know, like, you really have to get into the mix, and that doesn't mean you have to solve it the very next day. So if something happens on a Wednesday, it doesn't mean it needs to be fixed by a Thursday, but it does require that you take a step forward. Sometimes you can do it on your own, sometimes you do it with the help of books and videos and the community, people in your community. And other times you do it with professionals that you reach out to and help. Sarah's a great example of someone that you can reach out to. And the biggest thing is you don't need to be alone. So if you are struggling, if you want to see change immediately or in the future, and you do think you need help, then there is no better time than now to reach out and do that. So with that, everyone, I hope you enjoyed this one as much as I did. My name is Aran Arslanian, and this is one step beyond. [01:35:28] Speaker A: One step. [01:35:32] Speaker B: One step that. [01:35:39] Speaker A: Beyond.