Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: HR is fully the corporate boogeyman.
We are blamed for every termination. We catch a lot of flack for upholding standards.
It's, you know, kind of a dumping ground, if I'm being totally honest.
[00:00:17] Speaker B: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the show.
For those who are longtime listeners, you probably noticed that thematically, I like to have a mix of people, but really, one of my favorite things to do is speak with people that I've known for a long time who are doing interesting things in the world. So pretty often on the show, I'll have someone and be like, oh, this is a friend of mine I've known for a long time, and in this case, this is someone I've known for a really long time. Interesting life story, interesting professional story, and just, like, a decent, good person. This is a cool conversation for a lot of reasons, and one I've been looking forward to, because it's not always about getting somewhere really, really quick. It's about getting to places that matter to you and making sure that each step is really, like, measured and thought out. So with that, I'm excited for it. Before we get to it, please rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast. My name is Aram Arslanian, and this is one step beyond.
Laura, welcome to the show.
[00:01:33] Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me. It's so good to see you, and a pleasure to join you for your podcast.
[00:01:40] Speaker B: Heck, yeah. All right, so, for the uninitiated, for those who don't know, who are you and what do you do?
[00:01:48] Speaker A: Yeah. So most will have no idea who I am, because I'm not in the spotlight, any sense of the word. My name is Laura Defrait. I'm a people services team leader for the north american region, for a cybersecurity firm.
[00:02:02] Speaker B: So what is a purpose? People services lead do?
[00:02:09] Speaker A: Oh, gosh, so many things.
It's just a fancy way of saying that I'm kind of in middle management of HR for the north american region.
Yeah. So, like, I'm, uh, I've got my hand in kind of everything in corporate.
[00:02:28] Speaker B: So part of why I wanted to have you on, beyond the fact that we've known each other forever, and I know your family, and I just. I love all you guys so much. But part of what I want to have you on is. Is like, HR is the often misunderstood and highly criticized but totally necessary thing in a business. So, from your perspective, your take, your view, what is HR and why does it matter?
[00:02:55] Speaker A: Yeah, great question. HR is fully the corporate buggy, man.
We are blamed for every termination. We catch all the flack for upholding standards.
You know, kind of a dumping ground, if I'm being totally honest. But in my opinion, HR really helps shape the employee experience in a positive way. We're the ones out there fighting to ensure that you're taking your PTO, that you have your mental wellness benefits, that you're taking care of, and having a seamless experience, not having to worry about all the tertiary things on your day to day. You get to just show up and do your job, and everything else is just taken care of for you. And we're your biggest advocates. We do hold you accountable, though.
[00:03:50] Speaker B: Well, right, so you might have. Might have already kind of answered it, but you led with, you know, HR is kind of the corporate bogeyman. So why is that? Why does HR not always, but can have, like, a bad name and organization?
[00:04:08] Speaker A: I think it's a really dated idea that's held on in great part thanks to pop culture tv shows. I mean, I look at the office and you look at the character of Toby, who's the HR coordinator in the office. And, you know, Michael Scott really goes at him hard all of the time, has a full distaste for this person. And Toby, while not the most likable person, doesn't really ever do anything wrong. He's just kind of there and he'll give very light corrections once in a while. Like, Michael, you can't really say that, but it's not that he's truly a villain. He's not going around, you know, telling, like, watching over people's shoulders, making sure that their emails are spelled correctly or have the correct terminology, or making sure that no one's having fun in the office, he's just kind of there. And I think that shows, like the office, while it is, as you can probably tell, one of my favorite sitcoms, help carry that old trope of HR being the bad guy.
Otherwise, I don't know, I've worked with some really wonderful people who are all there and who really care about how the company is going.
[00:05:32] Speaker B: Okay, but before you got into HR, because, you know, this was not your. Not, this is not your intended stopping ground. Like, this is not your intended path, which we'll get to later on. But before you.
Before this became your career, what did you think? HR.
[00:05:51] Speaker A: I didn't really ever think about HR. I worked in when I was employed, I was a stay at home mom for a long time, but when I was employed in my youth, I never even considered HR because it was never anyone that I had direct access to. I knew my coworkers. I knew, like, store managers, I knew the district manager, maybe, but otherwise, I had no real interactions with HR. So I didn't have this overarching idea of what to expect of someone in that role.
[00:06:29] Speaker B: So for me, it was similar. I was working at not for profits, and most of the HR was, like, one person and they're cool. Whatever it was, it was basically like, I didn't really consider it. When I started working in the corporate world, I was really surprised by how big the departments are, how complex they were. And something that stood out to me, and I'm interested in your opinion of this, is that, like, businesses or business leaders or even business units can kind of treat HR in one of two ways. And that doesn't mean that's how the HR people are or want to be treated, but they could kind of be treated in one of these two ways. Either they treat them like ticket takers, like, go do this thing, like, here's our order, and you go do the thing. Or they treat them like a business partner, like someone who has a seat at the table. And it's like a real distinct difference of how these businesses or leaders or business units can interact with people and then how effective HR could be. But before we go any further, any thoughts on that that's specifically.
[00:07:30] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I can relate to, actually, both of those scenarios. In the company that I currently work for, HR is broken out into kind of several different parts. So I'm in people's services, which is more of the human resources operations side of things, and then we have our human resources, business partners, and then payroll is another section, talent acquisition is another.
So for me, in my role, I experience both things. I experience executives who want me to have a seat at the table, who want to have input from where I come from, from my perspective on the business, my experience with our stakeholders and employees.
And then I have some other executives who say, I need this report.
Get it to me yesterday.
[00:08:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
So in that space, though, like, how do you roll with that? Are you just, do you just interact with people with how they come to you, or do you have, like, do you have a position about, like, actually, no, I want to be treated like this, or I want to work with you like that? Or is it a little bit of both?
[00:08:45] Speaker A: I treat everyone exactly the same regardless of how they come at me. It's always with a gentle hand and kindness, because you never know if someone, I mean, I work fully remote. I've never met anyone at my company in person.
I don't have the nuances of what they're like, what their personality is like. If it's a person reaching out to me for the very first time, I don't know what they've experienced in their day to make them come at me in a certain way. So I treat everyone kind of with kid hands, like kid gloves, I should say, like, hey, thank you so much for reaching out. I'm happy to help you with this. I need clarification or so on and so forth. And generally, tone will soften, people will come back in a more generous or, I don't know, appreciative manner, give everyone the benefit of the doubt.
[00:09:50] Speaker B: So, like, around HR, and if we think about it again, just kind of like big picture stuff.
If you were going to explain to someone, like, how HR actually works that didn't really have an understanding of it, what would that look like? Like, what's that explanation?
[00:10:09] Speaker A: So human resources works to ensure a wonderful employee experience while protecting the business in the sense that we're making sure that all applicable laws are being followed, which for a global company is not easy. I mean, just being in North America, it's state by state, for Canada, it's province by province. So ensuring all the rules have followed, making sure that you're protected, making sure the company's protected legally, and ensuring, again, people can just show up, do their job, reach out to someone kind to answer questions, and not have to worry about anything else.
[00:11:01] Speaker B: So how is it done, though? So when we're talking about the, because I'm hearing two things, like, one is like, protecting the workers and the business, and the other side is like, that good work experience. So if we broke that down, like, what about the, like, protecting the business and also protecting the people that work there. Like, how does, like, an effective HR professional or team from your perspective, like, do that and do it well, communication.
[00:11:23] Speaker A: Is key in all of it. So in protecting the business, it's from a legal standpoint, but also from a financial standpoint, oftentimes folks will reach out to us with pretty, pretty hefty requests, like, hey, I would like to change this policy wholesale, and I'd like to do that now. And it's going to cost the business. I don't care how much. But this is what I'd like to happen. And so if it's too outlandish, we can say, okay, this is clearly not going to happen. We have to protect the business financially. So you have to word it in a way that I hear you, I understand where you're coming from that. In a perfect world, this would be a wonderful policy to change.
However, this is still a company. We all like to be employed here. We can't financially make this happen for you.
Protecting employees is the company says, well, we're not making enough money.
Let's take a look at who does what and where and ensuring that if there is. I mean, tech's a crazy field, right? So we've seen all the layoffs, making sure that folks aren't targeted for things that are not only illegal like a protected class, but also putting in consideration like, hey, this person's about to go on maternity leave in like two weeks. Maybe we take a second look at their performance historically and make sure that they're protected.
Does that make sense?
[00:13:10] Speaker B: It makes perfect sense because so much about HR, I think, is just not understood. I think people understand just the general broad strokes, but the legalities of protecting a business, and I love how you impact that around, well, no, businesses need to be profitable and need to make sense.
We can't have really inflated staffing. We have to have the right amount of staff based on how the company is doing. But also at the same time, we cant just be willy nilly changing policies. I think you gave me two really good examples. Can we flip it to the other side though? The work experience.
[00:13:43] Speaker A: Absolutely. Part of what my team really focuses on is benefits administration.
So I dont want anyone to have to come to me in a health emergency and say, I don't have any information on my benefits. I don't even know how to find it. I don't, I'm in a complete panic. I don't know what to do. I'm afraid I'm going to get this astronomical bill from my doctor's office because I'm just so lost in this process. I mean, I know Canada is much different. You all have far smoother benefit experience up there.
Yes, but in the US. So we like to make sure that everyone is fully informed on everything to where there's ease of use. They can self serve, find things in through our internal hub, through our HRIs system. So like our HR system, like workday is the one that we currently use.
Make sure that upfront they have all of the information that they need, benefit cards, what's covered, what's not, how much they're looking to spend for literally any service, stuff like that. We really front load information for everyone and make sure that they feel like in a pinch, if they don't know we're on top of it. Yeah, and we're so well versed that it takes no time at all for them to receive the information that they really need.
[00:15:24] Speaker B: If we took that, like, employee experience just a little bit further and certainly way into this, to whatever degree you're comfortable with, you know, very often employee experience would also include things like company culture. And I hear company culture spoken about in, like, the most, like, wild and totally vague ways. Any thoughts on, and not necessarily your role or anything, but just thoughts on, like, how providing company culture and some of the things that you think are essential to that.
[00:15:53] Speaker A: Yes. So company culture, I think, is often spoken about in vague terms, because no one really, no one really understands how that plays into the day to day, um, especially in an environment where we're pretty much 90% remote at this point.
So it's not like you're going into an office and. And the company culture is, like, seen, and there's, like, signs on the walls or, you know, motivational things in the break room. It's how you interact with each other. It's how you respond to things. It's about taking the company's values and putting them to work.
It's hard. It's really hard to try and tackle something like company culture, because you're right, it is used. There's buzzwords that are used there.
You know, everyone's. You hop onto this, like, global call where the CEO is like, yes, strong company culture. And you're like, well, but how? Please show me, you know, concrete ways in which we're following these shiny ideals or terms or phrases.
From my perspective, I will occasionally remind myself what the company values are and try to steer my team in a way that follows those, like integrity, taking responsibility for yourself, leading with kindness and empathy, things like that, and hoping that there's kind of a trickle effect. So everyone that we come into contact with will kind of pick up on that and follow suit.
[00:17:58] Speaker B: Yeah. Can I tell you a funny story? And then kind of lead into a culture thing. I had heard about company culture before, of course, like, just in passing or whatever, but the first time I ever really, really heard about it, I was at this, like, you know, company meeting. I was consulting at this company, and it was an energy company, and the CEO kind of impromptu, got up in front of 100 people, and they had a PowerPoint projector. But he didn't turn off the PowerPoint projector and had gotten very close to it. So the screen was, like, projecting onto his chest right here and on the slide was, like, a person that was like, like that. So he's given this totally passionate speech with this, like, image of someone right there, and he's talking about the company culture, and he's like, remember, no matter what culture eats, strategy for breakfast.
And everyone in the room was like, oh, everyone was cloud. So powerful. And I, like, literally at the time was like, what does that even mean? Like, what does that actually mean?
[00:19:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:05] Speaker B: So afterwards I was like, hey, man, that was a cool speech. But, like, what you mean by that? And literally, wonderful guy. So I'm not, like, not trying to, like, take the piss out of him, but he was like, I I don't know if I could explain it to you. And I was like, that's what I thought. And I've heard culture talk, like, discussed so many times like that in these vague terms. And it's not because anyone, I think is, like, 100% because people aren't being jerks or whatever. I totally believe companies want people to have good work experiences. I really do believe that.
Even if they're just doing it because they want to make, we just want people to work here and make money, that's fine. Who cares? But I do think people. That they want that. But when you talk about culture, it's such a vague thing, and it's discussed in vague ways, so that having good company culture is. Can be very difficult because everything's discussed in vague ways, which means the results are vague. Like, I do believe there are some very specific ways that you can look at company culture, which, which we talk about in a second. But just from, like, the vague point when you're talking about, like, a CEO getting on, it's like we've got these values and da da da. It's like, that person's not being a jerk, but at the same time, it's not really. It has the same kind of effect of someone being like, rah, rah. It's like, yeah, whatever, that's okay. And that means it becomes ignorable.
[00:20:25] Speaker A: I'm wondering if sometimes it's the case that they speak in such vague terms to encourage folks to take away their own interpretation so that they feel like they're not boxed into this very specific ideal of how they should behave or perform, but rather whatever those terms mean to them.
[00:20:50] Speaker B: I love what you're saying there. And I think, like, culture.
I think culture, at the best, at its best, could have kind of, like, more generalities that give people to have, like, interpretations, but not so general that the interpretations could be, like, crazy, varying, wild.
[00:21:08] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:08] Speaker B: Well, can I give you an example of something?
[00:21:11] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:21:11] Speaker B: Have you ever have you heard of that philosophy of how to share ideas called radical candor?
[00:21:21] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:21:22] Speaker B: Okay, so radical candor is like, I do think, like, really sound like the underpinnings of it are sound. But, like, very often when people interact with me about it, they interact with it in one or two ways. They interact with me. Like, hey, I. We're trying to practice radical candor and I keep getting blown up by this person. They're just, like, attacking me left, right and center. And they're like, I'm just practicing radical candor. Or the flip side, the other way people talk to me about it is like, I am just trying to practice radical candor and nobody can handle it. And it's one of those things where it's like, there is actually a total practice about radical candor, how to do it. But it is actually developing a type of culture around that thing. But it's so interesting how people can take it. And either they're just like, oh, my God, I feel like I'm just getting blown up left, right and center by people who are taking advantage of this or people being like, I'm trying to use it, but I feel like I'm, like, constantly a bull in a china shop. So when I think about culture and people using their own interpretations, it's like, yeah, that would be. That'd be sick. But, like, how do you do it in a way where it's not too vague but also not too focused? Like, how do you do, like, culture effectively and have something that's, like, meaningful enough for people but also doesn't box them in?
[00:22:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
If I had the answer to that, I think I would be a very wealthy woman.
[00:22:47] Speaker B: Do you mind if I. Can I share my thoughts on it?
[00:22:51] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:22:52] Speaker B: Okay. I think people with company culture should try not to be perfectionistic. And, like, you know, it's like when people talk about company culture, they talk about it as if it's fact. Like, we are this and like, we are kind or we are empathetic or whatever. And when it's like, well, I don't know, like, I mean, seven days a week. Am I. Am I one way the whole time? It's like, I don't know. Like, I'm. I'm a bunch of ways in it in a given day. And that's just me. And so if we extrapolate that by, like, two, two people or by 100 people or 200 people or 2000 people, then you've got, like, a lot of complexity. I encourage companies to always view things culturally from, like, an aspirational standpoint that we aspire to be these ways, and I think those ways should be totally awesome, like, big thinking, like. Like kindness. I like, I like that. Like, you know, we don't want to be kind, but be specific enough that you could attach behaviors and skills to it. So it's like, okay, we're going to be kind. Well, what does kind look like from a behavior standpoint? So, for example, what if you had to give someone difficult feedback? One person might think, like, well, being kind is not giving people difficult feedback. I just want to be kind to it. Another person, it's like, well, it's actually kind to give someone feedback. They need to hear it. Okay, so, like, what is the behavior of being kind? In a lot of different settings, but then what are the skills associated with it? So be aspirational, but be specific about, like, behaviors and skills. But the other piece is, from an aspirational point of view, is recognizing that human beings are going to human beings going to have good days and bad days, and that from an aspirational perspective, we shouldn't look at culture as being 100% on all the time. That if we averaged across that, we're, if we could hit the bucket of saying we're we're living our culture about 70% of the time, and 30% of the time, we're off culture for all sorts of reasons. But when we're in that 30%, we have the self reflection, the accountability, and the skills to identify it and get back to that 70%. That, to me, is an effective company culture, and then you dont have to stop at 70. The longer the company culture goes along, the more skilled youre at it. It can go to 757-8889 and that the company culture could kind of grow stronger over time.
Thats how I encourage people to talk about culture. So its not so vague, and thats just top level thinking about it. Any thoughts or anything youd add or disagree with or push on on that?
[00:25:16] Speaker A: No, that's a wonderful way of looking at it. I think you're right. People will. People. People will. People. And coming from kind of a tech space, we have a lot of neurodivergence in our community.
So what kindness will look like in action to some people will look very different to others. That feedback, the way that it's worded to one person, will be received in a very understanding and welcome way, whereas another person will feel attacked by it, regardless of how the approach is. So I think having broad strokes is kind of a great approach to company culture. In that sense. But, but having the markers for, okay, this is the aspirational point. This is kind of our approach as a company individually. It may differ a little here or there.
[00:26:20] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. I totally agree. Since you brought up neural diversions, you know that I always laugh at this, too. When companies are like, we want the best and brightest at our company, it's like, well, no company is saying like, we want the dullest and the worst.
But, so if you think about neurodivergence, and also since we're talking about like remote working as well, like for and from an HR perspective specifically, traditionally, we think if we're saying the best and brightest and we didn't, weren't accommodating neurodivergence or marginalized communities or people who needed to work remotely, we weren't really pulling from the best and brightest. We were pulling from the best and brightest from a teeny slice of the population. So now that theres so much more conversation about different kinds of accommodations that we could have and different ways of working, were able to pull from a larger, much larger population and the best of brightest for that, so it seems like weve got the opportunity to get way more people that are ultra talented. On the flip side, businesses could sometimes look at accommodations as being too much of a pain in the ass. So, and, like, don't want to, like, handle it. And they're like, oh, everyone's being a baby about stuff. So from your perspective, like, what's the way that we can continue to kind of like, grow that population and convince businesses that it's actually worth the effort to do that?
[00:27:47] Speaker A: I think during the pandemic, the one bright spot as far as businesses are concerned and work is concerned, I think that moving to fully remote was the way to ensure that neurodivergent folks have the tools that they need to be successful. When you're in your home, you already have yourself set up in a way that you're most comfortable, most productive, most centered. Right.
You bring your best self to work, you are the most productive that you can be. You don't have to worry about. I mean, I can only speak for myself. I am neurodivergent. I have a hard time sometimes leaving the house.
This has been long term, lifelong issue.
The idea of hopping in my car and dealing with traffic in Los Angeles to get to an office location, then all of the initial interactions that I have to have with people, the small talk, the, the niceties, the smells, honestly, of the office, just facing that every morning when I wake up, it is a real barrier for me, knowing that I can wake up in the morning, have the time for myself to really mentally prepare for my day, make sure that my desk is organized in a certain way, my house smells a certain way, that I can go pet a cat if I have to, if I'm having a moment.
That all is invaluable to my work experience.
So I think being flexible with work environments is the key to ensure that you're getting the best and brightest.
[00:29:45] Speaker B: Totally. First of all, thank you for sharing that. That is, like, so cool that you would open up like that. And also, like, yeah, like, I just want to work with people who are into it. Like, they want to do it, and they're really good at figuring it out. So I want to be able to pull from the widest range of people, if possible, because, like, someone who's in this, like, teeny little sliver, it's really hard to find someone who can, like, play in all the different kinds of levels where if you're, like, pulling from a much bigger population, there's a lot more people that you can find a lot more interesting people. But it's not.
Some industries kind of have played like that, but a lot of industries have really pulled from, like, just these teeny little slivers of the population, although it does seem to have changed considerably. And I do think that's, like, one of the good things that's come from the pandemic.
[00:30:34] Speaker A: Absolutely. And when you pull from such a big population, I mean, I just think about my team. There's three of us on my particular north american team in people services, and it's myself. I'm seated in Los Angeles.
The people services assistant is seated in Austin, Texas, and the people services advisor is seated in Atlanta, Georgia. We bring three very different life experiences to the table.
Culturally, we bring three very different cultures to the table. And with those differings of cultures and experiences, you can really make something great. It's like, it's the difference between making a recipe with a very homogenized set of ingredients. Right? You're like, you can't just bake a cake with flour.
You need sugar, you need chocolate. Maybe you need butter. You need all of the things that make a cake. And I think it's really close minded of businesses when they go, well, we just want to hire at this one particular office in this one particular city, in this one particular region, because you may not be getting that diversity that makes the best cake.
[00:32:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
Can I make a band analogy here?
[00:32:06] Speaker A: Absolutely. I don't know why I said cake, not a baker.
[00:32:12] Speaker B: Like, especially because, and again, for the people listening who don't know Laura or myself or both of us, we both come from, like, the music scene, like, the punk scene.
A band full of really good musicians doesn't necessarily mean it's a good band.
Like, you pulling from a broader range could be like, well, listen, maybe our bass player absolutely sucks and just picked up a bass for the first time. But they're incredible style. They understand the genre, great stage presence. They're just a cool person. Like, really great, great person. They've got a great attitude. What I loved about punk is your ability to play the instrument is not even in the initial equation of whether or not this person should be in the band. It's like there's. That's like a bonus, an added bonus, and that's like pulling from the best to brightest, I think in so many ways. Like, there's just classic bands that have people who started off barely able to play their instrument. And when I think now, like, think about, like, hey, we want someone in this region, it's like, that's kind of like saying you want a total guitar shredder, but they, like, can't write a song. Like, who cares why even bothered? Like, getting people who are in it, who are creative, who are, like, super willing to try different things, who can look at things different ways, who have different life perspectives.
I think it's such a cooler thing for businesses, and that is one of the things remote work has opened up. I did have a question for you, though.
[00:33:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:33:42] Speaker B: So my perspective around Zoom or teams or, like, any kind of online thing is that it can be just as good as being in person if a company helps create, like, the right engagement style. And so most companies use these things in a transactional way, meaning, like, they don't want to be on Zoom or teams or whatever platform for literally 1 second afterwards.
So if you call to order a pizza, I don't know if people still call to order pizzas, but, like, what do you call the order on your app?
But when you call to order a pizza, it's not like you sit on the phone afterwards and be like, so how you doing? It's like you call to order the pizza and you get off. And so I think of, like, things like video conferencing. It's kind of the same. It's like, very transactional. You want to get on, have your meeting and get off. If companies treat it as transactional, then they're always going to be over, over reliant. On the in person experience as a way of creating like, organic moments of collaboration or whatever. But if they treat it as something that can be more organic and they use the phone really well and they get used to, like, good conferencing, uh, practices between the phone and video, you can create an almost as live, uh, experience. You just have to be really, um, diligent about creating, making this part of your company culture and practice. But I'm interested in your thoughts as someone who's like, uh, who's fully remote.
[00:35:09] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a, that's a wonderful point. So as someone who's fully remote, who interacts a lot with my counterparts in the UK where my company is based, we have a large office there. Most folks have either gone into the office full time or are doing like a hybrid situation where they're there two or three days a week and then at home the other days versus where I'm at. My closest office is in San Francisco. I can't exactly hop in the car and drive 6 hours one way every morning. Um, so I treat teams like an office.
I don't hold office hours, but if you have a question, hey, are you available? Is the same as a knock on the door to me.
I'm happy to have a call at any time as long as I'm not in the middle of something or in the middle of another call. And for North America, where we are still predominantly remote with some that have moved more hybrid, but it's few and far between, it's kind of the same for everyone.
We use it as an office door.
[00:36:27] Speaker B: Do you mind if we make a shift into more about you and your story?
[00:36:32] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:36:32] Speaker B: Okay. So you talked about it a little bit where predominantly, you'd been a stay at home mom, and something that you had mentioned to Monica as the two of you were doing your pre call was the idea of kind of, it's never too late.
So what do you want to. What can you share about just who you are, where you grew up, all of that, and then your entry into kind of a career path?
[00:36:57] Speaker A: I mean, how much time do you have?
[00:36:59] Speaker B: I got all day. I got all day.
[00:37:01] Speaker A: Open book.
Yeah. I grew up with a hard working single father, which is not typical for a lot of girls. He was my girl scout troop leader when I was in kindergarten. I was in daisies. No, brownies. Brownies.
So it was, it was an interesting upbringing. My grandparents had a big hand in raising me as well. I was a difficult teenager.
I got into punk music and ragirl music, and I had been an only child until I was a teenager. And once my sibling was born, I was just took that and ran. I was like, all attention is on her. I'm out of here.
Yeah. I wasn't like, necessarily a bad kid. I just wanted to experience everything.
Which led to some strife with my dad.
And I graduated high school when I was 16. Shortly thereafter, I found myself in uncertain living circumstances and started working. So straight out the gate. When I graduated, I wanted to go to college. I wanted to become a high school teacher.
I had a very narrow vision of what my path looked like.
And then life happens, right? So started community college, found myself in unstable living environments, working three jobs at a time. Couldn't really stick to it, but was really determined.
My very first introduction to teaching course, it's an early childhood development course.
The professor comes to me and asks what grade level I was interested in.
And I said, high school. I had a really rough time in high school. I didn't have a lot of great friends.
Teachers were really not very supportive most of the time.
And then there was a couple of bright spots for me.
One I can think of in particular was my english teacher. She was a punk from New Orleans. Helen Farinas. If by any chance are listening to this. Hey, what's up? How's it going?
I was really inspired by her. She really took an interest in me, encouraged me in ways that I really needed at the time. Was just a stand up person, just wonderful and could relate to me. And I was so inspired by that that I was like, I'm going to do this. I'm going to be a high school teacher. I'm going to be like the cool teacher that comes in and shakes things up and all the weird kids can feel comfortable coming to me. And I will be their change maker. I will turn things around for them.
This one professor looks me down in the eye and says, you're too young to teach high school.
In four years, you'll be in your early twenties and no high school is going to hire you.
So rethink that. Maybe kindergarten. I was so busy just trying to feed myself that I took her words, left and didn't go back.
Dropped out of college.
Continued working two, three retail jobs at a time.
Landed with a really great family. So my best friend, her family had a guest room, and I kind of showed up one day and didn't leave, which stabilized my living environment.
Met my husband. We started dating a couple years later.
I was still working a lot in retail. I worked my way into retail management.
I was an in store buyer and trainer for an adult bookstore.
Loved my job. It was really interesting. I met a lot of really cool people.
My husband and I decided that we were going to move to Los Angeles together.
Quit that job, was in the process of finding another job, kind of floating the idea of going to cosmetology school and found out that I was pregnant with my oldest child at 21.
At that point he was bartender, making a ton of money. And we sat down and I was like, listen, I'm trying to find a job. I almost landed this assistant manager job. That was kind of a dream job. It was at Tower Records in Sherman Oaks.
I was up for the assistant manager role. They really loved me.
I was like any kid who grew up watching Empire records, like, this is the dream.
[00:42:34] Speaker B: Totally.
[00:42:37] Speaker A: Well, my final interview, I was like, hey, just so you all know, I'm five months pregnant, so I'm going to be having to take some leaves soonish. And then I never heard back and I was crushed, naturally. And I came home, I talked to my husband and I was like, I know what I'm going to do. I'm halfway through this pregnancy, I can't find a job to save my life.
I don't know what I'm doing. And he was like, that's fine. Just enjoy being pregnant. Enjoy the rest of it. We'll figure it out later. Once our oldest was born, we sat down together and talked about it and it was like whoever could make the most money would go work. The other person would stay home.
He is older than I am, had been working for longer than me, was already making good money. And let's be honest, it's the United States. It's dude, he's white, he has far more earning potential than I do, especially at the time.
So I stay home and did that for twelve years.
[00:43:51] Speaker B: So there are lots there. Also, the adult book store is like, let's go back to that moment in college with the teacher.
That's wild.
That is a psycho thing to say to someone.
[00:44:10] Speaker A: It truly is. It truly is. And especially someone so young, totally and eager and excited to just put whatever you have on that person in that moment. It's just, I can't imagine a scenario where I'd have so much disregard in someone else's experience and feelings.
[00:44:44] Speaker B: What's also interesting is like you, so much of you wanting to be a teacher was to be the teacher that gave people the counter experience to them. Like that person pushed you out by doing that, when literally part of why you were there was to give people the counter of that.
[00:45:04] Speaker A: Yeah, just to wrap my arms around anyone who felt like they didn't belong. And then suddenly to have this one person say, well, actually, you don't belong.
[00:45:16] Speaker B: Totally.
[00:45:17] Speaker A: It was devastating.
[00:45:18] Speaker B: Totally. Well, do you mind if we tag back to your current role right now just on one idea?
[00:45:24] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:45:26] Speaker B: So professionally, especially in the role that you're in now, you understand, of course, like, from this experience, but then also now, like, the power of the power that leaders or people in authority can have when they speak too casually. And how that can it really impact people's worldview, view of themselves, view of their work, view of what they can accomplish? So any thoughts on that from, like, an HR perspective and, like, you know, just in regards to, like, what leaders should consider?
[00:45:59] Speaker A: Yes. So, again, I can mostly speak from my own experience in how I approach things.
This is why I treat everyone the same. I give everyone so much grief because I don't know what their life experiences looked like up until that moment when we interact.
I hope that other leaders do the same.
I know that that's not always practical or, sorry. My cat decided to join us.
He has a lot to say on the subject as well, apparently.
I would hope that folks, as they're rising to the ranks of executive, have interacted with enough people that they have a base understanding that everyone is different and everyone comes from a fully different life experience that they may not have encountered before, and that they approach everyone with the same kind of grace that they would hope that their bosses before them would have given them.
[00:47:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. Can I share with you one of the cringiest things I ever saw a boss say?
[00:47:35] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely.
[00:47:37] Speaker B: So it was when I was working in this industry, except I was so I was working in, like, you know, in coaching at that point in leadership. And my boss at the time, who, who grew up wealthy and had never had another job, like, had only worked in this company, which was his mother's company, so literally had no professional experience outside of growing up in this company, this company.
He was sharing his philosophy about how to train people in his company. And a lawyer had joined our company, someone who'd been, like, ultra experienced, had been a very high level corporate leader. And he was talking about this person and. And, like, his approach to essentially bringing her to heal. And he was like, you know, the way I look at my role and really mentoring and coaching people is I like to break them down and rebuild them in my image.
And this dude said this, and every single person around him was like, like a the arrogance of saying that ever, ever as a leader is crazy.
But also, when you have, like, 0% professional experience outside of one company, you're, and you're way younger than the person that you're talking about, way less educated ways, way less experience. You have experience in this one company that your mom built. I will never forget that. As like, oh, you just happen to have the power in the room. Like, you have the power. And because you've had power for so long, you're completely detached from the impact of your words. And you would say something that is, by all anyone else in this room would be like, that is an insane thing to say, but you're saying it as if you just gave us, like, hard sage wisdom. And that, like, power, that the carelessness that can be associated with power or authority is like, really something to consider when you're talking to people of any level.
[00:49:48] Speaker A: That sounds to me like imposter syndrome at play. Totally, big time. He's just, it sounds like at the, in that moment, he was like, what would, like the cool executive boss say on a movie that's like, really impactful? I know.
I want to break everyone down and make them in my image.
Could you imagine?
[00:50:18] Speaker B: I got a million of them about that guy. Okay, let's go. Let's go back, though, to your life story.
And I love when you talked about Tower records, too, because, like, if you're of an era, you know how sick that job would have been.
[00:50:33] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And it was like, it wasn't one of the really popular locations, but because it was inside of a small mall, it was the Sherman Oaks Galleria.
It was just walking distance from my house. But talk about seeing be less celebrity after b, less celebrity in one location. And you're like, I could know what Red Foreman from that seventies show listens to. I could know what, what cd he's buying. That's just what an insight into this actor's mind I could have.
[00:51:21] Speaker B: It's a whole thing, but it's cool. Like, come on. When Tower Records went away, I was so bummed, man.
[00:51:29] Speaker A: Oh, me too, me too. I mean, I just, I felt like the epitome of cool shopping and tower records.
[00:51:37] Speaker B: Totally.
[00:51:39] Speaker A: Even though it was a tourist hotspot and literally reproachable.
[00:51:46] Speaker B: But working hard and working multiple jobs had been a part of your life when you were really young from, you were like 16, and you were like two, three jobs, unstable living conditions. So you had to always be hustling to make sure that you had enough money, had enough stuff. So when you made the decision to be a stay at home mom, as you were telling the story, and I. Correct me if I'm reading into this, it sounded, as you were telling the story, as if it was something you had to make peace with yourself about. Is that. Would that be accurate?
[00:52:17] Speaker A: That's. You're right on the money. With that, I had learned to be very self sufficient, and I had a really hard time with the idea that financially, I would be wholly dependent on another person, and not just on that person, but on their actions, on their ability to maintain a job, their ability to earn money.
Feeling so out of control in that way was really something I had to work hard to make peace with, be okay with.
And then on the flip side of that, I was in a nature where none of my friends were having kids. I suddenly had this baby. I didn't have really tight relationships with my family, and I didn't have any close friends that I could lean on and be like, hey, you have a kid. What did you do in this situation?
The public library and the Internet became my best friends.
Every girl, every smell, every twitch, I'm like, what's happening?
So I really took all of the energy that I had put into working and self preservation fully into this new baby.
Good news. I didn't screw them up. They're very well rounded individual. I didn't become a helicopter mom.
They're a great kid, so I did something right. But I think the through way of making peace with so much uncertainty on one side was to be, well, I'm certain that my focus on this, on this child, will be productive and fulfilling, and making sure that they have a good life will become my new purpose, rather than just solely making money to survive on an individual level, to push.
[00:54:35] Speaker B: On this a little bit further.
Did you feel any level of conflict also coming from the punk scene, the riot girl scene, and then entering into what would, at least at that time, and maybe still be considered more of, like, a traditional gender roles in terms of family?
[00:54:56] Speaker A: Yes.
Especially coming from the riot girl scene and third wave feminism. And this idea that I had to be apart from that I had to be apart from more traditional gender roles, and I didn't view it at the time, or still, I didn't view it as if I was bowing down and backtracking into this role, this, like, 1950s housewife role. I mean, I would like to talk about a little bit about imposter syndrome in this sense too. I know I mentioned it about your previous boss, but it's something that I've experienced historically as a mom, as a professional, I felt like an imposter parent for a minute. So while I didn't fit into this narrow box of, like, 1950s housewife, I did take up the lion's share of the housework. I did take up the lion's share of child rearing.
And that was all in the service of ensuring that my husband had the ability to really focus on work. He did do a wonderful job of sharing responsibilities at home, but because I had come from being so busy in life, by the time he got home, everything was done. I was so bored and isolated. All my friends are still, like, 21, 22, partying, living it up, and I was like, I don't have a babysitter. Y'all have fun.
But that comes down a toll too, because I don't know how many times I took my kids to the park, even as they were getting a little bit older and people looking at me and saying, oh, are you the nanny?
I'm like, no, I'm not the nanny. But I did decide to be authentic to who I was before I was a parent, to who I am now, to who I aspire to be in the future. Like, no, I'm not the nanny.
That's a really interesting place to be, too, is being a young parent and feeling the pressures to kind of conform to this idealized view of what a parent is supposed to look like or behave like.
I struggled with that quite a bit in my twenties.
Again, no one in the. No one in our friend group were having kids, with one exception, and they were in the military. And I know that she struggled in the same way that I did at a certain point, to feel like you have to be made to dress a certain way, to cover up your tattoos, to be quieter, to not curse, to change your tonality, the way that you speak, the way that you emote, the way that you present yourself to the world.
I felt that way for a very short period of time, and.
But I was like, fuck that.
Fuck that. I was not.
I was not meant to be quiet and small and demure. I was not meant to redefine who I am because I had kids.
What a terrible way to show your children how to be.
I wanted to raise my kids to be authentically who they are in every stage of their life, regardless of what else is going on. And I continue to kind of showcase that now.
[00:59:03] Speaker B: Hell, yeah.
[00:59:04] Speaker A: As a peach haired Susie in the banshee shirt wearing HR professional.
[00:59:12] Speaker B: This is so, like, so much why I wanted to talk to you. Like, of course I want to talk about being professional and all that, but I also know that you had, like, a bumpy path early on, and especially you were.
You were amongst the first people that I knew that had a kid. And then kids, like, when we met, when we were just talking about this before we started, you had your first, and you were like. I think it was still, like, very. They were very, very young. And we were young. We were kids. Like, we were very, very young. And I was out, like, touring and playing in bands.
Something you said really stood out to me, though, and my wife Monica has also talked about this, is that idea of the isolation that could be felt by a young parent and specifically, like, let's say, a young mother that people would maybe not realize.
[01:00:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Especially I think things may have changed given the normalization and culture around social media. So I'm pleased to say that I see parents now having these really interesting lives online and making connections with each other online and then bringing that into the real world.
At the time when I had kids, I think MySpace was still fairly new.
[01:00:50] Speaker B: It totally was. Totally was.
[01:00:53] Speaker A: Yeah, I had friends through still. I think I had just canceled my makeout club account, so not aging myself at all here, but it was a place still where you showed up, you posted cool pictures of your hair or what show you went to, but no one was talking about, hey, I'm a new mom. I'm lonely.
Who wants to hang out?
[01:01:24] Speaker B: Totally. Totally.
[01:01:26] Speaker A: I'm a new mom. I'm struggling with this one area. Who wants to talk about it? I'm a new mom. I'm depressed.
Who else has had these feelings? And on that same note, speaking about mental health as a parent has become so much more normalized and destigmatized that there's just a lot more resources out there now than there was when I had kids. I internalized a lot of my loneliness. I didn't want to put burden on my husband because he was working like crazy to make sure that we were all taken care of.
My closest confidant is my grandmother at this point, and she's, like, in her eighties, and she's like, well, back in my day, like, well, okay, I'll just not talk about how I'm feeling.
But, yeah, it was really difficult to navigate, and I felt like I was navigating it on my own. I would encourage any young or new parents out there listening to find their people and use the tools at their fingertips, literally at their fingertips in their pockets, to find their communities and their people and always mental health resources, if you need them.
[01:02:54] Speaker B: Heck, yeah. Totally.
So kind of shifting to your reentry into kind of saying, like, I want to have a career. I want to go down the path we have. Baby number two, your life's going on. At what point did it. Did you kind of feel that spark of like, hey, I want to start heading it down a different path so.
[01:03:16] Speaker A: That that spark never went away. I had a lot of false starts throughout the twelve years that I was a stay at home mom. I went to cosmetology school when my oldest was about ten months old, and that was a hoot.
But we ended up having to move, and we moved from California to Washington. The licensing process was not transferable. Only some of my credits would transfer. And the closest sister school to the one that I attended was in Everett, which is about an hour north of where we were living. And we had one car and a baby and no support system, so abandoned that that was fine, because then shortly after that, my number two shows up and I am full neck tape and diapers of a toddler and a newborn and tearing my hair out with no sleep. So that was fine.
We've moved around a lot, so kind of anywhere where I thought, okay, this is where we're going to settle. For a while. I would look into the local community college, and I want to take enrichment courses. Or be like, well, I picked up this credit here and this credit there, so maybe I can pick up a few credits while we're here.
Spoiler alert. When you've got two very young children, you have no time, really, to yourself, let alone brainpower, to focus on writing a 16 page paper.
I find anyone who has the mental breadth and depth to do that just fascinating, but also actual heroes.
So at one point, I started community college to try to become a biogeneticist, because that's obviously.
I don't really remember what it was that took me on that path. In that moment, I think I was going to the local library a lot and got into astrophysics, but thought, well, that's pretty lofty. I'd rather do something more of this earth. So, obviously biogenetics is the way to go.
I do have to say, math and science are not my strong suits.
When I went to sign up for these courses, I had to take the placement exam for English and math, and I had to take.
I had to take two years of remedial math just to get up to college level.
[01:06:17] Speaker B: Oh, but that's fair. It's been a long time, right?
[01:06:21] Speaker A: It had been a long time. But that leap into, you know, hard science was not.
Was not probably the best route. It was short lived. It was short lived.
At one point, I wanted to go to college to become a sex therapist.
Given my time working at an adult bookstore, I was very comfortable approaching all topics, and nothing was off of the table there.
I pride myself on being a decent listener, and I thought, you know, it's a great way to help people in really vulnerable situations, and maybe that's the way to go. And again, college just didn't pan out.
So that desire to hard launch a career path never really went away.
But I think while my kids were still very young and I was still very involved in their schools, it just wasn't an ideal time.
After lots of volunteering at schools and being there all the time and being just the parent that I wish I had at a young age.
My kids were getting older. My youngest was about to go into middle school. My oldest was buster high school. I thought, you know, I think it's time to reinvest in myself and figure out what my life looks like when they're more self sufficient. They don't need me like, they want me around. They like having me around, but they don't need me 24/7 like they did once upon a time.
Now I need to step back, reflect on my interests now, what's happening in the world where I feel like I can take all of the energy that I've put into my kids and make a mark or be the person that someone else needs for a minute.
Which led me back to college and political science.
That one stuck.
I went to community college first. I finished two years with two associates degrees, one in political science, one in social and behavioral sciences.
Went off to Cal State Long beach, majored in political science with a focus on law, politics, and policy, and a minor in women gender studies, and had a really wonderful college experience in a way that I absolutely not have appreciated when I was younger.
[01:09:20] Speaker B: Totally, totally.
[01:09:23] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I even got to take a course.
It was only two weeks, but I got to take a course in Amsterdam.
[01:09:33] Speaker B: Amazing.
[01:09:33] Speaker A: On critical criminology. And it was the first time I had ever traveled abroad. It was the first time I'd been away from my kids for any marked period of time. It was the longest I've been away from my husband in all of the time we'd been together at that point.
But it was such a. It was such a wonderful way to react, find myself as an individual away from the family unit, and fulfill all of my own needs and have to be fully reliant on myself for two weeks. It was, without that college experience, I wouldn't have been able to explore that.
[01:10:25] Speaker B: And then. And then what happened? Because I know where we're going, but.
[01:10:30] Speaker A: Well, let's talk about Sal while you're still there.
I became a research assistant for most of the time I was there. And I keep going back to my time at an adult bookstore. But one of my gender studies professors was a political science doctor, and one of the things that she focused on was, like, masculinity and pornography and all these really interesting topics. And in a one off remark, in one of the very first classes of the semester, she said, you know, if I could teach an entire course on pornography, I would. And so I approached her after class, and I was like, hey, this is a topic that I know a lot about, having been in management and an in store buyer for an adult bookstore.
If you need help writing a syllabus, let me know. I would love to get in on that.
And I walked away, and it was one of those moments where I beat myself up so bad, and I was like, you idiot.
You just walked up to a complete stranger whose grade is in your hand, in their hands for, like, an entire semester, and told them, hey, pour it into it. Let's talk.
[01:12:00] Speaker B: First of all, I think it's sick that you did that. And yes, you did do that. For sure. For sure.
[01:12:06] Speaker A: I 100% did that.
I didn't hear from her for, like, a week, and every single day, I was just like, oh, man, talk about worst first impressions. You're just some random person walking up to another random person. And about a week later, she asks me to stay behind during court class. And I was like, okay.
And she was like, hey, the dean's never going to let me do this, but let's put a pin on it. I have this other really exciting project. Would you want to be my research assistant for that?
And I was like, absolutely. So I was her research assistant for two years, and she did some really high profile publications.
It was.
It taught me a lot. A lot of the skills were transferable between studying and researching for her. And it helped with my ability to speak to people a lot better than I did when I was, like, running on, hey, the only folks that I talk to are my family and, like, other children, because that's where I spent all my time, is at the elementary school.
So that was. That was such a invaluable experience and helped me lead to where I am now, in a sense, where I know how to research things properly and use legalese in my role and all of the fun stuff that would have naturally made me feel like an imposter in this position had I not had those previous experiences.
[01:13:57] Speaker B: And then come Chicago, then.
[01:14:00] Speaker A: Then Chicago, so.
[01:14:04] Speaker B: And by the way, I'm not trying to lead you there, but, like, this story, like, when you told me this story when I saw you in California, I could not believe what I'm just going to say, this bullshit. And I felt so bad because of having known a bit of your story, not to the depth that I know now. It's like, just your desire to be like, oh, no, I'm going to just go and do all this stuff and do it really well and get super immersed in this whole world of academia and do these things, and to have this wild bullshit happen to you, it broke my heart for you and pissed me off and also made me feel like, fuck, man. The world is all situations are a step away from chaos at all times. The pandemic really helped us see that this specific situation is, like, wild.
[01:14:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
So when I was coming time to graduate from with my bachelor's degree, I was trying to really decide what I wanted to do with that degree. And something that they don't really tell you when you start a political science degree.
Bachelor's, that is, you can't really do anything with a bachelor's degree in political science. It's masters and above most things require a PhD and, like, an astronomical amount of experience that no one in my shoes has, because at that point, I was already in my late thirties and hadn't interned at the White House or Congress or didn't have the abilities to do so because I had kids at home in California.
So when I was really exploring what the future looked like, I decided that my best route forward would be applying for a PhD program.
I applied for three of those three. I was accepted to two.
The day after I bought my cap and gown on campus at Cal State Long beach, the entire world shut down. And as I told Monica, the cap and gown was non refundable, which was just like, you know, salt in the wound.
So the whole world was just in this insane amount of uncertainty, panic, and it was really easy to feel lost in that moment. But knowing that I had these two offers waiting for me meant everything.
So my husband and I got together, and I was like, it's either Chicago or Portland.
And he was like, I'll see where I can find a job. So August of 2020 was not the ideal time to find a job. In the restaurant industry, which he works.
But miraculously, some kind folks in Chicago took a gamble on him, and we packed up our entire family and moved across the country in the middle of a global pandemic.
We got there, I started my courses before our furniture arrived.
We were about two weeks in start. My courses was given my, I guess, jobs in order to receive a stipend. For those who don't know, when you get into a PhD program, you're given a stipend. So they'll cover your tuition, they'll give you some low level healthcare, and they'll give you an amount of money, basically for working part time for other professors. And it's more like you're shadowing, but really you're kind of their errand person and teach their classes for them so that they can work on other things.
So we were in Chicago, I just started, I was told, okay, well, you're going to be a ta for this one course and a research assistant for another professor. It's like, great.
This is also at the time when the Trump administration put a freeze on folks coming to the US for work or university. So half of my cohort were stuck in other countries.
They needed folks to pick up the work that those people who were stuck elsewhere were supposed to do. So I find myself suddenly ta ing for three courses and doing research assistant work for two different professors, as well as having two children at home that were schooling at home in an entirely new city, while trying to focus on these really heavy workload courses.
And my husband's exploring this new position. And I don't think I slept more than 3 hours a night for maybe a month because I was so overly inundated with schoolwork and then work and then making sure that my kids were okay, and it all became too much.
So I approached the faculty and I said, hey, listen, this is what's happening.
We're in the middle of a pandemic. Like, I'm sure there are some stop gaps in there where either I can step away for a minute and return next year, or we can bring my course load down from full time to part time.
And at first they were like, yeah, let's just take it on part time. That's fine. Like, just keep your ta jobs, keep your ra job, do part time school. That's great.
And then the administration came back and said, actually, no, because you're part time, you lose all of those jobs. And by the way, you lose your tuition expenses. So you have to pay out of pocket for out of state grad level work, which is extraordinary, even out of state school.
So ultimately, I made the decision to pivot.
I have become the queen of pivoting, and I'm better for it. I think I stepped away from that. Took some time to figure out what else I would be doing in the interim. I just applied to every job that was online. Like, any job that I could had a listing. I threw my resume at so many walls, and finally it stuck. And it's a teaching assistant at an elementary school, which was an education in and of itself.
Yeah.
[01:21:44] Speaker B: Sorry to interrupt. Could I ask you a question about that decision to pivot?
[01:21:49] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[01:21:50] Speaker B: What was the, what was the emotional reaction internally? Like, how did you manage that, manage yourself during that period? Because that's a big shift.
[01:22:02] Speaker A: It.
I was extraordinarily hard on myself, and honestly, if it wasn't for the support of my husband and kids, I don't think I would have handled it very well. I had put so much stock in this one thing that was going to be so long term and lead to this ultimate goal of becoming a college professor, teaching political science and constitutional law through a feminist lens.
I had book ideas.
I was going to write these academic books.
And the decision to shift away from. From academia was probably one of the hardest decisions I've ever had to make.
But, yeah, it was. It was an extraordinarily difficult decision, and it took some time for me to come to terms with it.
I acted like I was okay with it before I actually was.
[01:23:16] Speaker B: Can I. Can I tell you something about this? Like, when you told me the story, so, like, we were sitting, like, backstage at, like, a hardcore show, and when you told me, like, my heart broke for you so hard, like, I had known that you'd gone to Chicago. Like, I hadn't known that you were, like, super involved in school because it's like, you know, we're not in communication all the time.
And when Cody had said, like, oh, yeah, we're going to move to Chicago, and we talked a bit about it, I was super psyched, but of course, I didn't know. And then suddenly you weren't there anymore. When you told me the story, it hit me so hard. I felt so bad for you and for the situation that I was thinking about it, like, most of the day afterwards. Like, I kept, like, filtering it out of my head about, like, how did you walk that? Like, how did you, like, walk it and then refocus because there's some kind of, like, feat of strength in that.
[01:24:10] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I had spent so many years waffling when I came to college, and I finally not just made it happen for myself, but I crushed it. Like, I fucking crushed college. I graduated with an incredible GPA. I first shot, got into not one, but two PhD programs where. I mean, my cohort in Chicago, they all had multiple master's degrees. I was the only one fresh off of a bachelor's to get into that program.
I had to step back when I made the decision and go, you know what?
It's okay.
You did it.
You got in.
You made it happen for yourself. You can make something else happen for yourself. Take all the energy that I was putting into college and focus there and just find a new direction. It took some time of additional waffling, but eventually I was able to think about it and go, you know, what's, what's all of my life experience, I've worked retail. I've been a trainer, I've been a buyer. I've worked extensively with children.
I'm really interested in the law. Puzzles fascinate me.
The more intricate, the better. Where can I take all of these interests, bundle them into a package, and also feel like I'm helping people. I'm giving back to something.
And all that together led me to HR.
I have the patience to deal with children, so I can definitely deal with adults, regardless of how impatient they are.
Most of the problems that float my way are just massive puzzles that I can figure out and put together.
I feel like I'm helping maybe not as big of a population as I would have had I got into politics, maybe, but I'm helping create policy for 500 people to make their lives better and easier and more. More fulfilling.
Yeah.
[01:26:44] Speaker B: All right, so as we're heading towards the interview, we're going to go into the crucial three, where I'm going to ask you three more difficult questions. They're going to scale up in difficulty, but before we get to that.
[01:26:53] Speaker A: Oh, boy.
[01:26:54] Speaker B: But before.
I can't be. I can't be. It's got to. It's. Think of it as a puzzle, an intricate puzzle which you can. You can unlock.
[01:27:02] Speaker A: Oh, man. I have opened my guts and spilled them all over.
[01:27:06] Speaker B: Done. Great. This is. This has been awesome. But I do. I do have a question for you.
[01:27:11] Speaker A: Sure.
[01:27:12] Speaker B: I love how you talk about your job. I love how you talk about HR. And I hope anyone listening to this is, like, either been confirmed, like, yeah, HR is, like, awesome, and is really there to be helpful, or they're an HR professional, where they're like, oh, thank you for saying that, or they've had some of their beliefs, challenge. Like, I love it all. But a question for you, where you're like, yeah, so, like, I'm helping people, but not on the scale that maybe I've thought, but I'm helping 500 people.
Well, here's a question for you. What's next? I know you're enjoying your job now, and it lights up all sorts of things for you. Is this the stop for now, or do you have other horizons in mind?
[01:27:53] Speaker A: I would like to continue to grow in my path of HR. I envision myself eventually being the CPO of a major corporation and not just making 500 people's lives better, but thousands of people's lives better.
[01:28:08] Speaker B: And I fully believe you're going to do that. All right, you ready for the crucial three?
[01:28:13] Speaker A: Sure.
[01:28:14] Speaker B: Okay. We're going to start small, but we're going to. We're going to scale. It's going to get tough. So question. Question number one.
You have your story. To me is so much of that, like, willingness to pivot, willingness to, like, you're on a path, but you're like, you know what?
Okay, I got to reimagine myself. I have to recreate myself. I have to push into this thing. I have to do it for myself, for my family for the moment. But there's also this level of, like, well, it's not over. Like, I'm never going to give up. I'm going to find that right thing. So there's this, like, level of pivoting and being willing to say, like, you know, there's going to be the moment and then capturing that moment. So what advice would you give to someone who, at any stage of their career or of just their life, they haven't felt they found their thing yet, and they're worried that they're running out of time?
[01:29:12] Speaker A: Why would you be running out of time?
I mean, no one knows what tomorrow brings unless you have. Well, I was going to say unless you have word from your doctor that you got six months. I mean, there's no such thing as no more time. I understand that, folks.
I mean, I'm guilty of it, too. Watching other people succeed in life online, we have this ingrained vision of what we're supposed to be by a certain age, based on pop culture, based on what other people are doing.
What works for other people isn't necessarily going to work for you. If you're in a career and you are unhappy for whatever reason, don't force it. Step back, reevaluate, and then just be willing to maybe take a step down, step away.
Look at things where the skills that you have and interests that you hold will be applicable, and then just start making connections. Put your resume out there. Put yourself out there.
[01:30:23] Speaker B: All right, second question. It's a two parter.
[01:30:27] Speaker A: Okay.
[01:30:28] Speaker B: Throughout this journey, and you can pick any point in your life or even just kind of like a retrospective space in this journey where you've had to pivot a lot. You've had to, like, kind of, like, change your ambitions, change your focus. Recreate yourself, like, be in these spaces. What's one thing that you've learned about yourself that you didn't know before, but you've learned through these experiences that you've really come to like. Like, about yourself. You're like, I've learned this thing, and I really value this about myself.
[01:30:57] Speaker A: I've.
I've learned that I'm more resilient. Resilient than I've ever given myself credit for.
And I've learned that I do belong in spaces that I haven't necessarily believed that I did before.
[01:31:27] Speaker B: All right, part two of the question. What's one thing that you've learned about yourself that you realize, man, I don't like that. And that you've had to work on that you've. And you've put, like, effort into changing or addressing?
[01:31:40] Speaker A: I am, like most people, my own worst critic. I'm very hard on myself. I give everyone in my life just an extraordinary amount of grace. I mean, people at the grocery store, I give more grace than myself.
And that is one thing that I've really been working hard on, is being kinder and gentler to me, treating myself how I treat other people. Speak to myself how I speak to other people.
[01:32:11] Speaker B: Yeah. All right, third question. I might be setting you up on a impossible task, or maybe you'll be like, this is the easiest. So, you know, this podcast is not a music podcast, but we talk a lot about music.
Of course, you've come up partially in the. Inspired by the Riot girl movement. What is the best riot girl band? That is not bikini kill and what's their best song?
[01:32:36] Speaker A: No, that's an impossible task. I can't. I cannot pick a favorite.
I will talk about the last riot girl band that I saw. It was Sleeter Kinney. Slater Kinney has been one of my favorite bands since I was about 15, and I got to see them for the very first time about two weeks ago. So that's exciting. And I love what they do.
They brought a band to open with them called Something Black Belt Eagle Scout Black belt. Eagle Scout is an amazing queer native band from the Pacific Northwest. I highly recommend them to everyone who likes kind of serene but important music.
[01:33:21] Speaker B: Heck, yeah. Awesome. All right, listen, we made it through. How was it for you?
[01:33:26] Speaker A: It was great. I was really nervous until I sat down and started chatting with you, and then it just felt like a normal conversation with a ram.
[01:33:32] Speaker B: You totally rock. This was super, super fun. I learned a ton about you, your life, just resilience. I know, I love it. I mean, I want to know all of that stuff. And then I love talking about pieces of business where people are like, they kind of hate on it. Like, you know, like me. I don't like HR. It's like, well, no. We hearing about someone who's excited to do it and their perspective is awesome. So with that, before we close off, any last words, anything you want to share with the audience?
[01:34:04] Speaker A: Be kind to yourself. The world is a big and scary place and can be really tough on you, so you should not make that burden worse.
[01:34:12] Speaker B: And I don't know if you can see this, but, like, there's this, like, beautiful, like, sun just above the trees behind me. I feels, like, real inspirational along with what you're saying.
[01:34:21] Speaker A: Yeah, it feels like you're aglow at the moment.
[01:34:27] Speaker B: All right, thank you so much, and everyone, I hope you got as much out of this as I did. Again, it's like getting an interview. People I'm friends with and I've known for years is so cool because, like, you know, you learn different sides of them, you hear parts of their story, but also it's like, man, there's tons of stuff that we talked about today that not only did I not know about Laura, but I also just did know about. And I wanted to hear more about really specifically that idea of the resilience it takes to pivot and change and move and how do you find the wins there while also, like, really saying, like, no, there's something out there. I'm going to make it happen for myself. Especially at the end where Laura was like, this is where I'm going to be. I'm going to be a CPO. And I totally believe it. I believe it, too. And wherever you are, someone just sent in an ask a ram question today. It was like, kind of, hey, I'm in my forties. Like, I don't know if I found my thing. Listen, if you're in your forties, your fifties, your sixties, like, whatever age, or if you're in your twenties and you're uncertain and you're worried it's out there for you. It is out there for you. You just got to keep trying, keep pushing and take the leap. Invest in yourself and really believe you're going to find it. So with that, everybody, my name is Ram Arslanian, and this is one step beyond what that beyond.
