Marni Wandner, Integrative Health Coach

[00:00:00] Speaker A: I was in my mid twenties at that point, and I was like, if I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it now. You know, I don't know. I mean, I'm still kind of doing my own thing in a way just kind of on the other side of it, but I think kind of really weighing out. How is it scary? Is it exciting scary, or is it terrifying scary? And I, you know, actually don't know how I'm going to pay my bills. And is there a way to maybe bridge things a little bit? Maybe if you've never had your own business before, but you like the idea of that freedom, can you test it out as a side thing while you have something stable before you make that jump? [00:00:38] Speaker B: That was a clip from today's guest, everybody. Welcome back to the show. It's not often that I get to be speaking with a fellow coach, so I'm very excited for this one to kind of like talk shop, talk our paths here and all that kind of stuff. Coaching is such a popular thing right now, and a lot of people from a lot of different industries are getting into it, which is cool, great. Like more the merrier from my perspective. I always love to hear how people got there and how they formed of their coaching practice. Before we get to it, please subscribe to the podcast. My name is Aran Arslanian, and this is one step beyond. Marnie, welcome to the show. [00:01:33] Speaker A: Thanks for having me. This is great. [00:01:36] Speaker B: Totally. Okay, so, for the uninitiated, for those who do not know, who are you and what do you do? [00:01:43] Speaker A: My name is Marnie Wandner. I am a board certified integrative health coach. I've got a background of over 20 years in the music industry. So most of my clients are music industry professionals, musicians, creative professionals, entrepreneurs, because that's also my background. That's what I do. [00:02:01] Speaker B: Heck yeah. Okay. There's so much I'm stoked to talk to you about, but let's just start with the fun stuff. Where'd you grow up? [00:02:08] Speaker A: Grew up in south Florida, was born in New York and Queens and, you know, moved now as a baby to Florida. And from the day I learned, that's where I was from, I was trying to get back to New York, and that's where I live now. [00:02:25] Speaker B: I already had an idea of like a baby hitchhiking. Like, get me out of here. [00:02:31] Speaker A: This is not right. [00:02:35] Speaker B: So when was the attraction to music and working in the music industry? When that. When that take hold for you? [00:02:41] Speaker A: Started out my kind of adult career you know, my career, graduating college and moving to New York and doing the whole thing as an actor, that was kind of my background forever, and that was the only thing I ever wanted to do and ever thought about doing. And I majored in theater. I moved to New York a little bit, graduated a little early, moved to New York, did the whole thing, did tourists, did the indie films, did all the stuff, the extra work, the, you know, you know, theater stuff, auditions. And one day I was like, I don't know if this is for me. And I had no idea what would be for me because I never had any other thought about any other career path. But I did always love music, and I had always kind of, like, liked helping out friends bands and things like that. And I knew that you could be a music manager. I had a cousin that I wasn't really in touch with, but I knew that he at one point, managed the Red Hot chili Peppers. So, like, that could be a job, right? Like, I don't know if I would have known that that could be a job otherwise. But I found an internship for an artist management company on Craigslist, which tells you how long ago this was. And I got the internship, and I just kept showing up until they hired me, and that was what started me in music. [00:04:02] Speaker B: So it's quite a big difference. Usually when you hear about someone's cousin managing a band, it's like, some, like, band down the street from you, not like the Red hot chili Peppers. [00:04:13] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it was. And it's funny because I'm quite close with his brother, my cousin now, but it's. I didn't know the cousin that managed them at the time, although my grandmother used to bring us, like, red hot chili Peppers merch, which is a really funny thing to happen, just not something that you would expect your, you know, grandmother to show up with, like, mother's milk t shirts. So that's a visual. But, um, it just. Yeah, it kind of just. I think it was kind of the band. I think he was in the band for a while, and it was sort of like a local band for him, and then they became there at Hot Chili Peppers. But just knowing that you could have a career in music, and I think for a lot of people, it's a mystery of, like, how do I work in music? How do I break in? And, you know, I didn't even really get any help. I just kind of knew, well, that's a job. Maybe I'll see how I could find my way into that kind of work. That sounds cool. [00:05:07] Speaker B: That's. I love this story. I want to get into it a little bit more, but I want to just pop back to the. To the acting side of things. So you said one day, I just realized this wasn't for me. Like, what was the one day? Was it a thing that happened? Was a series of things that happened? Was it just like you woke up and that was it? [00:05:24] Speaker A: I kind of must have happened gradually, but, you know, when I was doing it was, I think, a summer theater apprenticeship at a stock theater company. I remember having a masterclass with an actor, and it almost positive it was Richard kind. And I remember him saying, if you ever hit a point where you just, you're not all in on this, you have to get out because it's too hard of a career to do it if you're not all in. And I remember hearing that and being like, well, you're not talking to me, because, like, this is all I'd ever wanted to do. But then I get, you know, I guess it was a couple of years in living in New York, doing the thing, working at a restaurant, you know, trying to make it work, and doing the auditions. I had spent six months touring a show that was fun, but it was like, I didn't want to not be in New York. I wanted to be in New York doing the work. And I just kind of hit, you know, I was doing commercial auditions, and she show up. You see the same girls that look like you every single audition. You know, you're just kind of like, is this really what I want to do? I don't know. And I'd never asked myself that before, but I had a kind of. I was. I was just in a bad place. I was, like, kind of just mentally unhappy and healthy. And I kind of thought about what he said, and I was like, maybe that's where I am. And it was a hard moment because I, like I said, I'd never, ever considered doing anything else. Anyone who knew me said that's what I was going to do. So I really didn't have, like, a backup plan. [00:07:02] Speaker B: It's an interesting moment, though, because that's like a real start again moment. And I think for a lot of people, the idea of starting again is more daunting than just staying in a thing and plugging it out, like staying in a thing and just kind of slugging it out, even if you're not happy doing it. So what was it about you that made you say, okay, I'll just do this next, this, this next thing? Because it seems like you were very willing to be self reflective and take that leap. [00:07:29] Speaker A: Yeah, I think I was quite young. I mean, I was probably in my early twenties. And, I mean, I really think that that thinking back on it, it was kind of like, let me try this other thing, and if I really miss it, then I'll come back to it. And I just never did. I kind of just kept going. [00:07:51] Speaker B: Yeah. So it wasn't like a never again. It was a, let me try something else, and I can come back if I want. [00:07:56] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I kind of just felt like I needed to try this other thing, and I tried out. You know, I always loved writing. I thought for a minute it wasn't just this clean. Like, okay, I'm gonna do this now. You know, I spent a few months kind of. I was writing for a newspaper. I was doing some writing for magazines. I was doing some. I started, like, a copy editing company. You know, I sort of was trying to figure out what I wanted to do. And then I landed on the music industry. I liked the idea of being on the other, other side of the entertainment industry, but being in a different, like, vertical of the industry felt good. And I've always loved music so much, just as a fan. So I thought, this could be cool for a while. I was like, maybe I'll write about music. Maybe I would like to be a music journalist. So that was kind of maybe how I started creeping into it. [00:08:50] Speaker B: Yeah, so my sister is an actor, and something that her and I have talked a lot about is, if you're going to do it, you got to be ready for constant rejection. You've got to be ready for 0% stability and anything, and that you could get or not get jobs for a reason that has nothing to do with, like, how good you are. It could be, like, a bazillion reasons about it. So, like, your actual skill as an actor is only one of the elements that it's at play here. And so her and I were talking about it. I was like, so you get. You're facing constant rejection. There's no stability. And no matter how good you are, it doesn't. It's only one of the things that are play. I was like, what have you learned about yourself? Like, being able to manage those things and, like, that's her story, you know, like, what she learned and resiliency and all that. But you now reflecting, like, all of those things, if you agree that with what my sister was saying about it, how do you think they helped you in your career and building up your practice both in what you did in music and what you're doing now. How did the discipline of acting help you? [00:09:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I think what you said is spot on. And, you know, yeah, the resiliency is you have to build it up to a certain extent, you know, or else you would just be destroyed all the time. And I think, yeah, the instability thing, I think, is the thing that really killed me on the, on the lifestyle of it, which is funny because I went into music like, that's so stable, but, and now I coach people that are like, music industry is crazy. I'm like, I know. I guess that's kind of, I did learn a little bit about myself as a person that I sort of thrive on that and like it. I mean, I became eventually, very quickly in my career an entrepreneur. I don't think I could have said starting out that I would do that, but I think that's just what you, when you are an actor or you are an artist, you, you are an entrepreneur. You basically have a business, and you are the face of that business and you are the product and you are, you know, and it's a service based thing where your time is your money and, you know, it's all of these things. So it definitely taught me that. I don't think I knew that in the moment, but certainly the resilience, certainly the, you know, looking at things from all angles and knowing, like, it doesn't all have to do with me, you know, and even when I went to, like, hire people, you know, at the company that I started, I tell this to people all the time that are looking for jobs because I remember hearing this as an actor and then feeling this as I went into being a manager and, you know, an owner of a company and hiring people that people would be auditioning actors. And they, I remember hearing, like, they really, really want you to be the one because they don't want to do this anymore. They want to find the person that's right for the role. They don't want to reject you. And I felt the same when I was hiring people. Like, I really want this next person to work out because, like, I really don't have time. I just want to get to work. So that I think kind of just hearing that maybe I didn't really understand that later on in my life, but I think all of those things sort of integrated themselves and, you know, helped me understand different aspects about what I do now. [00:12:07] Speaker B: Yeah. So do you mind if I share something about myself around being an entrepreneur? [00:12:13] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. [00:12:15] Speaker B: Okay, so I grew up in the punk and hardcore scene, and my parents, when I was younger, they were super cool. Like, they let my first terrible band practice in the basement, and we were a band for three years, so it was a long haul for them. They really had to put up with a lot of bad music. And I think at the time, they were doing it more just so they kind of knew who my friends were. They knew what we were up to, all the stuff. But I spent a ton of time playing in bands, touring, doing all that stuff. And, you know, as. As it kind of got in the way of me doing school or career stuff, you know, my parents certainly weren't negative, but they'd be like, well, you know, like, you're going on. You're going out and getting paid, like, $10 to play a show. Like, maybe you should go, like. Like, go and have a stable job. But after a while, and especially when I went into my professional life and especially when I went into the corporate world, both my parents were like, oh, no. Like, your real training ground was not university. It was playing in a band. Playing in a punk band is 110% what set you up to do your professional career. And then when I started cadence, it's literally, of course, it's what I learned in school and what I learned being a professional, but it was the 80% of what I applied was everything I learned playing in a punk band. That's it. So, very similar to what you were saying about being an actor. It's like, that kind of set you up to be an entrepreneur and to, like, build those things. That's what it did it for me, and it still does it for me today. [00:13:47] Speaker A: Yeah, I really agree. And I used to joke that, you know, people were like, oh, did you major? Because I started a marketing company and people, oh, did you major in marketing? I'm like, no, no, I. Or did you study marketing? Like, I majored in theater. Like, literally no other major, no minor. Like, that was it. That's all I did. And I would joke, like, it's helped me so much, but it really actually did. And now looking back on the training that I got, just in. Just in relating to people, I mean, just in looking at, like, how you're taught to be present and be in the moment as an actor, it's not something that we're taught as human beings, weirdly. And a lot of my clients struggle with being present and hold, you know, being in the moment in a way that helps them manage stress and even managing a team, you know, working in music. That was really helpful, too, to just understand human beings and understand personalities and relating to artists. You know, like you're saying, you know, playing in punk bands, touring, understanding the road, understanding how it is to be creative. I don't know if I could relate to artists in the same way, having. [00:14:59] Speaker B: Not had that experience as well, 100%. So you make this shift into the music world. So tell us about that and how that led to you starting your marketing firm. [00:15:11] Speaker A: Yeah. So I took this internship at a really small management company. It was two guys and me. I was their assistant. I kind of expanded with the company. We expanded to four people, and then we got an assistant and I was the other manager. And it was great. It was such a good experience. I tell people all the time when they don't really know where to start. I speak a lot in music business schools, at universities, and I always say, if you don't know where to start in the music business, management is a great place to start because you get like this bird's eye view of the whole industry and you can really see what, how it all intersects around a band. And I loved it. It was great. I just knew after a while it wasn't really for me forever, but I worked with some great artists I got to work with. This was early, two thousands. I was working with Tracy Bonham, who I loved in, you know, when I was in college, and Sun 80 real estate, who just started a project called the Fire Theft, another band called Further seems forever, and a couple other artists that, you know, a lot of them I'm still really close with, but I just was like, okay, there's, this is good. I need to, like, move into something else. And I got really interested in marketing and pr and actually the publicist for, and this is kind of just, you'll probably relate as an entrepreneur that your life just kind of, you don't like, apply for a job and get it and go work there. It's just like something happens and now you do this. Is that kind of how things work for you a little bit? [00:16:47] Speaker B: Totally. Totally. Just total sidebar. That fire theft record is like, unreal. Like an unreal record. [00:16:55] Speaker A: It's so good. It's still so good. Yeah. [00:16:58] Speaker B: It's one of those records, though, that suffered by the, the, how legendary Sunday real estate is, but so it's like, it suffered by how legendary the other stuff they did was. It's like, dude, this record as just a standalone record is unbelievable. And how much more recognition it would have if the name was just sunny day real estate on it versus the fire theft. [00:17:22] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a whole other podcast. [00:17:24] Speaker B: It is. My best friend Dave and I, he lives in Seattle. We talk about this record probably every couple of years, and, like, go deep on it. It is a unbelievable record. [00:17:36] Speaker A: It really is. And so for me to like that, that was, like, my introduction on how to work in the music industry was basically working on that record from start to finish. It was the first time I'd ever seen, like, you know, the label deal and, like, how it all came together. They were literally transitioning from being sunny day to being the fire theft and seeing the tours being put together, and, you know, it was wild. And I'm still close with those guys, and just saw them play a sunny day in New York, and just. It's that record still people that know it, you know, when I mentioned that I worked with them, they're like, oh, my God. You know, it's just such a. Such an incredible piece of work. [00:18:18] Speaker B: Maybe we will do a podcast about that record. Okay, so. Well, yeah, going to the entrepreneur side. Um, do you mind if I tell you how I started cadence? [00:18:33] Speaker A: I want to know. Yeah, I. [00:18:36] Speaker B: So, I'd been a therapist for about a decade, uh, doing addiction and mental health work in Vancouver, and I have a wiener dog named Blue, and he looks like a little Weimaraner. He's, like, blue colored. That's why he's called blue. Little Weimaraner. He's hilarious. He's, uh. He's still with us. He's 16 years old, and, oh, he said, you know what? He just recently kind of got house trained. [00:19:03] Speaker A: He's taking his time. [00:19:05] Speaker B: I gotta tell you, the amount this dog would, like, go to the bathroom in the house and just be unrepentant about it. Would just be like, whatever. I don't know. Like, no shame. Like, but I was walking down the street with blue, and I had just been talking to this friend of mine who had gone through a pretty difficult period, and he was talking about, like, oh, you know, I'm trying to have a summer of yes. And I was like, well, what do you mean? He's like, well, when people call me up and say, hey, do you want to hang out? I don't say, who's going to be there? I don't say, what are you guys going to do? I just say, yes, and I'm just going to start saying yes to everything. And I was like, well, that's kind of a neat idea. So I'm walking blue, and I just talked to this friend of mine. And we're at a streetlight, and this couple comes up, and they start talking to me about my dog. And the husband said, well, what do you do for a living? I'm like, oh, I'm a therapist. And he was like, oh, well, I run an executive coaching firm, and we're looking for a therapist to come work for our company to help us update our coaching practices. Would you be interested in interviewing? And, you know, you live in, like, a bigger city. Like, you know, you meet a lot of, like, people. I'm not like the guy that usually is like, why, yes. Odd stranger that I just met. I would like to interview with you, but I just talked to this friend of mine. I'm like, yeah, okay, I'll interview, end up interviewing. Da da da. I get this job in an industry, just as you'd said before, where you're like, oh, music management. I didn't know this was an industry. Maybe that could be my job. I didn't know coaching was an industry. And I was like, oh, yeah, maybe that would be my job. So I went and I went into it, and instantly, within two weeks, I was like, oh, no. Like, I had joined an absolute madhouse. Like, these people were absolutely insane. Like, on day one, I was sharing an office with someone. On day one, the person I was sharing office with told me this insane, sordid sex story, sprayed me with perfume in my face, and then hit me on the head with their laptop case. Like, I'm not even. This is like, day one. I was like, I have come to work. And also the owner made me put his terrible painting up in my office. It was so crazy. And this is a coaching firm. [00:21:22] Speaker A: Oh, wow. [00:21:23] Speaker B: I realized. It was so crazy. So I realized within two weeks that I had been tricked and I had been sold the idea that I was coming in as a therapist to do this stuff, but really, I was just a salesperson. And it was my first sales job I'd ever had. And I was like, well, I gave up my job, my union based job at this community services place. I guess I'll try it. And so I worked there for not five days, not five weeks, not five months. I worked there for five and a half years. And I kind of found my pace. I found my place. I found out how to build my own coaching practice because they weren't really like coaches. They were more like public speaking training. It was almost like it was toastmasters but positioned as leadership training. [00:22:09] Speaker A: Oh, wow, I remember toastmasters. [00:22:11] Speaker B: Yeah. So imagine that. But someone said, hey, we're executive coaches. And then you'd sit down to work with them on a business problem. They're like, well, let's look at our speaking notes here. It was so corny. Not for me, but I built my own little coaching practice in there based on being a therapist, and I kind of developed my own approach, and da da da. And it leads us up. Five and a half years later, I'm, like, three conversations away from being a partner with the. The company, and I just could not do it. I didn't trust the owner. He was just, like, some rich kid that I think it's fine. It's totally fine to grow up with money, but there's a difference of growing up with money and being a rich kid, and this cat was just a rich kid, and we had, like, a series of really shitty conversations all in a row, and I was like, I can't. I just can't with this guy. And we had this big, bad conversation. We part ways, and that's how I started cadence. All my clients found out that I wasn't there anymore, and they all started getting in touch with me, and they said, what are you going to do? And I said, oh, I've got a new company. And they were like, well, what's it called? I said, I don't know. I have no idea. Well, what are you going to. What are you going to offer? I'm like, well, coaching, but more the style of coaching I do. I'm not going to do what they do. I only do what I do. They're like, okay, great. Well, how much do you charge? And I was like, I don't know. Less than them, I think. And that's how I started cadence. And it's like, eight years later, we got 30 people who work for the company. We're, like, international now. It was like. It was literally, as you said earlier, it's like, as an entrepreneur, you don't necessarily pick what you're going to do. It's sort of like you start a path, and then it unfolds before you. Sorry, I know that was a long story, but the idea that what I thought I was going to do, which was I was going to work as a therapist for, like, 40 years and just move through community services into a private practice versus starting my own business, and then, like, this business specifically and where it's gone is, like, a totally different thing. And it was literally like a day by day journey. [00:24:11] Speaker A: That's so cool. That's so badass. That's such a cool way that you started the company. And it makes sense because I think people are, like, a lot of times people would ask me, how did you start your company? Did you know that you were going to start your company? And did you have a plan of like, I'm going to start this business? And I was like, I'd love to say that I did, but that it was very much like you where I was like, oops, I have a company. People would always say, like, don't say that. I'm like, but it's true. Like, I don't want, you know, I didn't have some grand plan. I was freelance. I mean, like, long story short, I had started doing marketing stuff, left the management company, went to a small label group, and really was just, like, running all of the marketing and publicity for the, these two, this, like, rock label and this dance label, and left there and was like, I don't know what I'm going to do now. And a friend of mine said, do you want to do digital marketing for this band that we both loved, for his indie label? And the band was on a major label. And I was like, yeah, okay, maybe I'll do this until I get a job somewhere. Maybe the major label will hire me that they were on because he was putting out the vinyl and they had hired him to do digital marketing. And I was like, you could do just digital marketing. I was doing, like, all the mark, that's crazy. So I did that, and I really, like, I was just kind of like, I don't know. I'll just, like, do this until I figure it out. And then I did that, and then someone else was like, hey, can you do what you did for that band? For this band? And I was like, yeah, okay. And that just kind of happened over and over again. And one of the clients that. It just kind of, you know, one of the clients I had at some point, I can't remember if it was before. After I interviewed for a job somewhere, but it was Lou Reed ended up being one of my early clients. And I was like, okay, well, now I'm doing this for Lou Reed. And then I went and interviewed for a job, and I was like, yeah, I don't want this job, but you guys can hire me as your third party marketing company. Like, who was I to say that even I was, like, 27 or something. I don't know. Like, what am I doing? And they did. I worked with it, you know, so, like, and then twelve years later, I, like, still had this company. So, yeah, I wish I would have. I wish I could say, like, I'm going to start a business, just not really what happened. [00:26:29] Speaker B: Well, so the thing I'm hearing your story is, like, a lot of just a willingness to say yes to things and no, no, yes, but around that digital marketing piece, and also when they're offering that job, you're like, no, but yes, like, no, I won't do that, but yes, yes, I'm going to do this, but around that. Like, the digital marketing piece, like, what year would that be when your friend was like, hey, do you want to do this? [00:26:58] Speaker A: 2006. [00:27:00] Speaker B: Okay, so, I mean, I'm dating myself a little bit, but that, and you tell me, it seems kind of like the earliest days of digital marketing. [00:27:11] Speaker A: Yeah, it was called new media then, so, yeah, it was, you know, MySpace and a handful of other very rudimentary. It wasn't we, I don't even think we were calling it social media then. Yeah, it was blogs and websites and things like that. [00:27:29] Speaker B: So the willingness that your willingness to just go into what ended up being an emerging, emerging industry, but being like, you basically went into almost like a third career there where you're like, yeah, okay, I'll do this thing and I'll figure it out. It's the figuring out piece that, because, like, a lot of people want to go into something that they understand because it's been mapped out and there's, like, guardrails and there's a way of doing it. And it's not that they're not willing to work hard or take risks or anything, but they want their world to be a little bit more, like, mapped out and predictable where you were very willing to, as a contractor, go into an industry or go into a space that you didn't really have any experience and that also didn't have a long history, so it wasn't well understood and figure it out. Like, that seems to me to be a pretty remarkable thing for a person to do. [00:28:23] Speaker A: It's funny that you say that because. Yes. So one thing was, when I was at the label, I really did kind of fall in love with the digital side of things, and they sort of didn't have see that importance the way I did. So I was really kind of craving to go into that. I was like, maybe we should start a site that's sort of like MySpace, but just for music. No, that would never work. Like, just, you know, things like that. Like, things I maybe wish that I would have explored a little bit, but. But I got so excited by the fact that you could just focus on the digital side of it. Because that was where I was really passionate. And then to your point, it's funny that you said, you know, about the figuring it out, because once I did start my company and, like, gave it a name and was like, okay, now I do have a company and I'm hiring people and stuff. After a little while, the company was called sneak attack media, and I used to joke that our tagline was, we'll figure it out. Because people would be like, can you do whatever? And I'd be like, yeah, I'll figure it out. Like, I'm sure I could do it. Sure, yes. [00:29:22] Speaker B: And I want to get to sneak attack in a Sec because this is such a cool story, but I want to hit on that. What's the line between, yes, we'll figure it out. I don't know how to do it, but yes, I'll figure it out versus I don't know what I'm doing, and I'm like, I'm totally going to blow it. What's the difference between being basically a con person who's just trying to get in and get stuff versus, yes, I'll figure it out, and I trust that I'll actually be able to do that. [00:29:52] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a really good question. I think that for me, it's a gut check of, is this terrifying? And I feel like I'm a liar and I don't know if I like it. Have I taken on too much that I don't know? Or is it like, I think I know who to ask and what to do and what I need to learn? Like, there's enough in place that I'm familiar with. There's maybe some filling in the gaps of some knowledge. Maybe it's hiring somebody that knows more than me about something, but I'm. I think we can do this. But I never would take something on that. I was, like, just completely out of my element. That would have been, I think, too scary for me. I do like taking risks, but not like that. Like, I don't think I could have just been like, yeah, we'll put on a festival. Like, that would have, you know, something that I had never done before. [00:30:50] Speaker B: That sounds so stressful. Putting on a fast. [00:30:52] Speaker A: I know. [00:30:55] Speaker B: Also, let's pop back to that. When you were offered this job and you're like, no, and what I'll do is third party. Tell us about that. Because that's, again, a real interesting one. The idea that people. Because at the time, you were just doing contracting work and you were being offered something stable and predictable but chose instead to do something else. Why that, what happened in that moment. [00:31:20] Speaker A: Again, it was very much instinctual. It was a feeling of, ooh, I'm going to belong to this company. And I think it was being in the office and seeing how everyone is doing their work, and I had a lot of respect for that, but there was something in me that wouldn't let me give up the freedom that I had found doing my own thing. Freedom has been a very big core value of mine forever. And so there was like, yes, there was the stability, but what I would give up to get it was not worth it for me at the time. And I also kind of had this feeling of, I have to give what I've started a shot. I don't want to give it up so quickly. I don't want someone to be like, you're going to work with these bands. I want to be able to be like, I want to work with this bandaid. And so that was kind of the deciding factor. And then part of me was kind of like, am I making a huge mistake? But it took me into this whole other chapter of my life. [00:32:22] Speaker B: Trey, I know you had mentioned you do quite a bit of speaking at music schools. And for people who are going down that path, any advice? And not for that audience, but also advice for people early career or even mid career, who are kind of at that crossroads of, do I choose comfort and predictability? So the comfort of a stable and increasing paycheck and the predictability of a workplace, even if I don't love it and I don't have that freedom and power to control my world. So if they're at the crossroads between choosing that and taking a risk and choosing freedom and creativity, any. I know the romantic thing is, like, choose freedom and creativity, but, like, just from a practical space and, like, career growth, any. Any thoughts, anything you'd share with people who are early or mid career? [00:33:13] Speaker A: Yeah, I think, I mean, really kind of taking stock of what you can do. Like, really, like, you know, in. Do you have a family to support? Do you? You know, I was. I was in my mid twenties at that point, and I was like, if I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it now, you know, I don't know. I mean, I'm still kind of doing my own thing in a way, just kind of on the other side of it, but I think kind of really weighing out. How is it scary? Is it exciting scary, or is it terrifying scary? And I, you know, actually don't know how I'm going to pay my bills and is there a way to maybe bridge things a little bit? Maybe if you've never had your own business before, but you like the idea of that freedom, can you test it out as a side thing while you have something stable before you make that jump? Because I think a lot of people do think, oh, I'm really good at this thing, I'm going to start a company. And they don't realize that running a company is a whole different thing. People used to ask me, is it hard to start a company? You'll probably relate to this, and I'm sure people ask you this too. And I would say, I would love to hear your answer to this too, but I would always say no, it's easy to start a company. It's hard to run a company. [00:34:26] Speaker B: I got so hard, like, so hard starting a company like you and I could start a company by the end of this podcast, totally. [00:34:36] Speaker A: But keeping it going and profitable and, you know, keeping people happy and keeping the work coming in and, you know, meeting expectations and growing and scaling and that's hard. So consider all of that when thinking of the freedom. [00:34:50] Speaker B: I love what you just said there. I'd like to add something to that that I get asked a lot of said to me one day. I just kind of like, you know, it wasn't meant mean. It was someone who was like, who is in a time of their career where they're facing a lot of rejection. And I was kind of given some, like maybe a bit of a pep talk to you, like, come on, you know, like whatever. And they said to me, it's like, well, of course you're going to say that. Everything comes so easy to you. And I was like, what? What did you say? But like, all these opportunities are like, all of the stuff happened for you with music and all the stuff happened with you with like this and with that. And I was like, hey, I just want to tell you two things, and this isn't related to you and what's happening to you, but two things. One, if you are someone who's going to start your own business or kind of build up a solo practice or a business or a company, the level of hustle you have to have, and I don't mean like corny hustle. Like, you know how people talk about it today. I mean like literally get up early, do the thing that nobody else is willing to do, eat that situation, handle that thing, have that meeting with that person who's difficult, have a late night dinner or an early morning breakfast, work on the weekends. It is significant, and it's only after years of putting in that kind of work that you start getting kind of like the connective tissue of getting a lot of opportunities at once before that. It's like one opportunity here, months, another opportunity there. It's the building of a network that is, requires so much work. That's thing one. Thing two, you can put in all the work and you can do all that stuff. If you're not actually good at what you do and have an ability to be reflective and get better at it over time, then the thing that you're going to do is going to fail. You have to have some core element of being somewhat good at what you do before you can start a successful solo practice or anything. And good intentions and a desire to do it is not enough. You literally have to be good at what you do and then have an ability to grow ill. Never forget that conversation. I kind of laughed. Like, things come easy, how hard I work, but it doesnt seem like that to people who are just adjacent to you. Like, you know, theyre kind of like secondary, like secondary. Third or fourth relationships, like being a solo practitioner or an entrepreneur or starting a business is crazy hard work, including the hard work of being like, holy shit, I don't know how to do this, but I'm going to figure it out. [00:37:15] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I mean, it's like the, you know, it's, I guess it's in every industry, but, you know, the overnight sensation where people are like, oh, like that person just, and I would, you know, as a marketing person, I'd have bands and artists come to me all the time, be like, I just want to, like, put a song out on Soundcloud and get famous like such and such artists. And I'm like, okay, let's have, let's talk about how that happened. And that person was writing and releasing music for ten years before that. You know, all the things, but it's the same thing in business, like the overnight since, like, all this, you just, you just said you were gonna do something and then you got flooded with clients and you knew how to handle it. And it's like, people don't always see the failures, the times that things, you know, didn't work out. The amount of. I remember talking to somebody that was starting a consultancy and they were like, wow. Like, I didn't expect to get so many rfps and then, and then not get all that work. And I was like, what do you mean? Like, you just put together a thousand proposals and sometimes they hire you, and sometimes they don't, and sometimes they hire you in a year. Like, that's just how it is. So I think there's a kind of. Oh, yeah. Aspect of this. Well, yeah, you just, you just go out and get clients and then you do the work and then you get more clients, and it's just this thing, but it's not, it's the hustle. [00:38:40] Speaker B: Perfectly said. Perfectly said. All right, so you start your own firm. Tell us about. Tell us about that. And kind of like scaling that up. [00:38:51] Speaker A: So I started it in my apartment, like I said, just starting with, with one band. My friend ran a really cool indie label called Ace Fu. Really great artists on that label, and started it in my kitchen, actually, in my room. And then I had hired somebody, and then they were working in my kitchen and, you know, just kind of, he said, you're going to need an office. And I was like, no, I love working from home. 2 seconds later, I was like, let's talk about that office. So we shared an office space in Brooklyn. I was living in the east village, so I was like reverse commuting to Brooklyn williamsburg every day. And it was just fun. It was really fun. I mean, it was really hard, but I started to very quickly just teach myself and really learn in real time how to scale and how many campaigns do I need in order to hire people, and how many campaigns do I need before I hire somebody and what do I charge? And even in that first few months, I got an inquiry about, you know, hey, maybe you want to roll your company into our company from a pr agency. And I was like, no, like, my company is not even worth anything yet. Why would I do that now? And so it's still kind of that. No, I want to, like, I need to give myself a minute to build this. And it was really fun. You know, we worked with some incredible artists and had some amazing experiences and eventually moved into another office in the city and grew and expanded our services into, you know, started doing kind of online pr and blog stuff and strategic partnerships where we would take the band and maybe hook them up with a brand and have them do a contest on this site and, you know, kind of string all these things together. It was really, we were really just kind of like, let's do this. That'll be fun. Okay, cool. You know, and proposing it to the artist with a label and getting the okay and doing it. So it was kind of like a playground. It was really fun. [00:40:47] Speaker B: So going from the shift of being an actor to a consultant, essentially, like, a contract consultant to starting your own business and then becoming a leader. That is kind of self directed work. Self directed work? Self directed work. Directing work for other people while also scaling up a business, like trying to make sure they have good work culture. You're taking care of people, the work's coming in. What did you learn about yourself that you didn't know when you started being a boss? [00:41:19] Speaker A: That's a really good question. I had a small team at the smaller, the small label I was at, but I was still very young, and even then I didn't know what I was doing, and I was managing people that were older than me, and I was very good learning situation. But, yeah, I really learned that just because you're good at something, it doesn't mean that you're good at managing other people that do that thing. And I learned how to work very slowly, but I learned how to work on my business versus in my business, which is something I think we all struggle with as entrepreneurs. We want to work in the business because we like the thing that we do. It's like, I like doing this. I want to do this. But when you scale and you have people working for you now, you've got to look at it from the outside, and you've got to look at projections, and you've got to look at, you know, how to scale up and where to cut things. And that was kind of a, I was really learning on the fly, and I kind of just learned by doing it. I had some friends that also ran companies, so I was lucky that we could kind of compare notes a little bit and just go like, what do you do with this? My accountant that I still use to this day was the accountant that my boss at my very first job in music, at the music company used. And he was the accountant for all of our bands and any band I ever worked with, he was their accountant, and he's still my accountant for me and my husband. And that was great because he answered a lot of questions like, how do I incorporate and what do I do about taxes and all the things that you don't think about when you, you just want to kind of work for bands and, and do creative projects. So it was very much a learning experience on the go. And as I kind of built the, you know, grew the company and expanded, and it just, yeah, and then even just like you were saying, the culture, you know, I just sort of looked at other companies and I looked at the, the two whole companies I'd been at before starting my company and thought well, what's the culture I want to convey? And how can I ask questions to make sure that I'm doing as good of a job as I can to make everyone feel safe and happy? And I didn't always, you know, succeed at every aspect, but I like to think that I asked enough questions to make people feel like they could always come to me with, you know, issues they were having. And we had a great time, and it was. I was grateful for the teams that I had over the years, because that's the other thing that I've learned, is that when you have a company, it's all about your people. That's the whole thing. [00:44:10] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. I want to go back to something you said. Well, I want to hit on two things. It sounds like your accountant has been, was, and has been somewhat of a mentor to you. [00:44:26] Speaker A: Yeah, I think he. Yeah, because those are things that I didn't know, that I didn't know. He's so kind in his sharing of information. He's never like, I can't believe he didn't know that, you know, he's really a good person in terms of how to explain things or, you know, it never feels like I'm annoying. I'm always like, I'm sorry, this really stupid question. I should know this. Yeah, it's really hard to understand, you know? So shout out, David Kameny. He's the best. But, yeah, I just. It was really helpful always having. And I trusted him. I think that was the big thing, because I saw how he worked with my first company, and, you know, even early on, when I was the assistant, he would be like, all right, here's the paperwork for all this stuff. You know what to do. Like, he just treated me like an adult, not like, oh, you're the assistant, so you don't know what you're doing. That. That, I think, really, I kind of appreciated that, so. [00:45:21] Speaker B: And you also mentioned you had, like, kind of a peer group, you know, friends who had started companies around the same time. Did you have any other mentors either kind of, like. Like, I guess, unofficial, like, people who just kind of played that role or people who are like, let me and mentor you, like. So as you were coming up, did you have any other mentors in your professional or personal life? [00:45:39] Speaker A: I think I was really lucky that I had met so many cool industry people early on that, like, David, you know, didn't. Didn't treat me like you're new here. Like, you don't know what you're talking about. They really kind of were open to listening to my ideas and questions. There's a lawyer that I'm still friends with that, you know, I told him, we met up a few months ago, and I was like, hey, remember when you told me, like, do your own thing first and then do, like, I was working at a company at the time, like, do your own thing first, take care of your own stuff, and then do that stuff because you're ahead. It's hard to do it the other way. And I still tell people that those kind of people that were even just, you know, 510 years older than me but kind of had been established in the industry that was really useful and helpful to me because I just felt like they helped me see parts of the industry that maybe I didn't know existed or didn't know how to navigate, and I took that with me forever. [00:46:37] Speaker B: So, in turn, as you're, you know, you've been coming up through music and you, you've been established. You had this established firm, but then also have gone into coaching, which, of course, has such a huge part of helping shape people and help them kind of achieve their goals. Before you got into that, was mentorship a part of your world? Did you start either intentionally or unintentionally mentoring younger generations of people as they were coming up? [00:47:05] Speaker A: Yeah, and I don't think that I realized it, but, yes. So early on in sneak attacks days, maybe like a year or two in a group of women in the industry, and I kind of revamped women in music. That's how I met Michelle. We were mentoring women in our industry without maybe knowing it. Now women in music has an official mentor program, and it's amazing. And I actually got to participate in it as a mentor a few years ago. But, yeah, we were sort of revamping this organization that was built in the 1980s and sort of went dormant to have a place for women in the industry to relate to each other and to grow. And so in that, yes, I think I was actively mentoring younger women in the industry. But even, like, taking on interns and younger employees and teaching them what I knew and learning from them, I think that's kind of inherent in running a business. If you take on employees that, you know, you end up mentoring them, because that's part, I hope that people do that because I think that's a problem. When I learned that that was a very important thing to do, that if they're not learning from you and you're not taking time out of your day to help them, then you're not doing it. Right. You know? [00:48:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Any advice for people, like, at any part of their career, for many industry, any advice for people about how to seek out a mentor or even, like, the benefits of mentorship? [00:48:38] Speaker A: Hmm. I mean, in any industry, I guess there's different programs and stuff. So if you kind of look up, I'm sure that lots of industries, I know, music and entertainment, have a lot of things that are put into place. But I would say, you know, if there's somebody whose career that you're following, you've been following for a while and really admire what they do to approach them, because, you know, people are very, very busy, but if they have time and space, even if it's, you know, half an hour a month phone call that you can have with them or something to just have some well prepared questions to ask them, I think even the busiest people do, you know, have, can make space to give back and help someone that's really passionate about what they're doing and has been closely following what they're doing. So I think reach out to some people that you admire that are within reach, maybe. But I've heard stories of people being like, I don't know, I reached out to this person really high on the ladder at whatever company, and they got back to me and I asked them to. I asked them to be more mentor. And I was like, you can do that. I didn't even know that you could do that. But that is a thing that people do, and I love it. I think that's really cool. And it's smart. [00:49:50] Speaker B: It is smart. And I love what you said, especially when you hit on that last piece about even people who seem out of reach. They might not say yes, but they might connect you to someone else that is also, like, super high up or, and, like, maybe in a different industry or whatever it is, who could, who could mentor, who have that space? Like, I I think the wisdom, not think, like the wisdom in what you just said about if you follow someone's career, you should ask. I hadn't even thought about it for myself in the sense of, I get a lot of people who were music people at one point who are now in different industries, hit me up on LinkedIn, like, oh, how did you do this? Like, how did you transition into that? And I have calls with people all the time. Not, not as much as I did, like maybe a couple of years ago, because things have gotten a little hectic. But I try as much as I can to make time where I'll just talk to some personal, maybe never speak to him ever again. And I'll take, like, half an hour, 45 minutes. I am super happy to do that because I know how scary it can be to, like, transition into a different role, a different industry, or I trying to apply your skill set somewhere else. So I love what you said, and as you said it, I'm like, oh, yeah. Like, I've definitely had people do that, and that's. That's cool. That's really good advice. [00:51:02] Speaker A: Yeah. I try to think, you know, what. What would I do in that? And I don't know if I ever actively did that. I still think maybe I could, you know, like, I have seen some. I think there's an organization called chief that I think is just for women, but they do that. They provide mentors for women who are well advanced in their career, because a lot of those women never had mentors. And so I think that's really cool. [00:51:26] Speaker B: Totally. Super, super cool. And I think, like, it's. So I didn't really grow up with that kind of. That kind of thing in my life. So for me, having. Having any level of mentorship has always been like, oh, my gosh, really? Like, wow, thank you so much. And I've always been reticent to ask. That's just such sage advice. So what happened with sneak attack? What led to you going into a different career path? [00:51:56] Speaker A: The short story is that I sold it to a larger agency, and I went in house there and ran their marketing department for a few years, and it was amazing. The sort of other story is that while I was running sneak attack, I've always been interested in wellness and, you know, alternative therapies and all kinds of things like that. But I never thought about it as a career, but I experienced a pretty intense burnout about probably seven or eight years into running my company, and I really didn't know what to do. I didn't really, at the time, know, like, do I go to a doctor? Like, I'm not okay? It wasn't just like, oh, I'm tired. You know, I was like, all. All aspects of me were not well. And I was, like, super, you know, big, the biggest my staff had ever been. I was traveling all the time. I had more clients I'd ever had. And all I knew how to do, to your point, was hustle and keep going, and I didn't want to let anyone down. And, you know, so eventually, I started working with a naturopath, and I found. I did a bunch of research, and I found an integrative psychiatrist, and I thought, that sounds interesting to kind of just figure out, like, is there something like mental health going on? Is it physical? And I got a bunch of blood work done, and I figured out that I was really deficient in a lot of vitamins, and I learned how to regulate my nervous system, things that were not on my radar as a business owner in the music industry in my twenties at that point, I was in my thirties, but, yeah, I just was like, oh, right, my nervous system. Okay. So I really did a lot of work on that. And once I started feeling better, I was so grateful, too, that I didn't have to. I know a lot of people that burn out and they, like, have to just take a step back and leave what they're doing. I was able to continue what I was doing and just kind of recalibrate, but I really wanted to help other people. And I was like, well, do I, like, become a doctor? I considered becoming a therapist. I was like, how do I, what do I, what do I need to learn and get, you know, skilled at, or go back to school at for. Go back to school for to do what I want to do. And I really wasn't sure at the time. And this was 20 1314, and I had discovered wellness coaching. I did not know that that was a thing. So I did a year long program while I was running my company. Really loved it. Learned, you know, integrative nutrition, health coaching, all aspects of that. And that was kind of something that I did under the radar while I was running sneak attack, because I didn't want people to be confused. Is she a health coach? Is she running a company? Does she do marketing? So I just sort of, if you knew, you knew and was coaching people quietly. But when I sold my company, I started being more vocal about it and, you know, be doing workshops and panels about wellness in the music industry, and, you know, that's when it sort of became, oh, Marnie does this. Yeah, that was, like, the turning point. [00:55:09] Speaker B: There's so much I want to unpack here. But first of all, like, what's the weirdest description that you've heard one of your friends say about what you do professionally? [00:55:24] Speaker A: Oh, that's a good question. And sometimes when I'm in, like, a social situation and someone goes, oh, this is Marnie. She's a. And I don't say anything because I'm so curious what's going to come out of their mouth. And like, she's a, I mean, people will usually use the word coach. I'm trying to think of what, what kind of description I think people just kind of use all of the words that I just described, but, like, in maybe some order that maybe makes sense or not. Like, she does integrative wellness. She's a coach, holistic, you know, like, she'll tell you what, probiotic that. Like, she just, you know, they'll kind of just figure out how to say it. But, yeah, it's getting easier. But she's who you call if you're, you know, if you've lost your, if you're burned out. But she's not a therapist, but it's, you know, but you talk to her and, you know, yeah, we're working on that, but, yeah, that's. Do people do the same for you? Do they, like, not know how to describe what you do? [00:56:33] Speaker B: Like, I get, oh, I was talking to so and so, and they told me you started motivational speaking. I'm like, what? [00:56:42] Speaker A: Okay, yeah, that reminds me, I have heard self help guru, which I'm like, never say any of those things. Never to me. Somebody did say that to me at south by south. Hey, I heard you're doing, like, self help guru stuff now. And I was like, that's. We need to talk. That's not it. [00:56:59] Speaker B: Totally. I had another person who's been like, hey, man, I hear you're a leadership influencer now. I was like, how dare you? [00:57:07] Speaker A: How dare you? [00:57:11] Speaker B: Like, I mean, there's elements of, if you're putting anything online, you're obviously, like, trying to be part of a conversation and influence thinking. And there is a part of, like, speaking in front of people and inspiring a way of thinking. But both of those things, I'm like, these are two opposite poles of awful, and I don't want to be near either one of them. [00:57:30] Speaker A: I don't want to be there. Yeah, yeah. I have gotten, like, wellness influencer. I'm like, no, I mean, I post on Instagram about wellness. I am absolutely not an influencer. That's. Thank you. I don't know how to respond to that. Please don't say that. [00:57:47] Speaker B: I've got a difficult question for you. A hard question, or maybe you won't find it hard at all. So as someone who has experienced it and then someone who helps other people as they are experiencing it, burnout is, like, a really common term used, but I believe it's, like, ill defined. It's ill understood, it's over generalized. So from your perspective, could you explain what burnout is for people and kind of how it can impact people? [00:58:17] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it is. I mean, it's very much become a buzzword. When I went through my burnout, nobody used that term. It was, like, ten ish years ago. I always describe it as a physical, emotional, and mental depletion. You know, a feeling of you have. You're trying to give more than you have. And I'm. That's not really, like, a clinical definition, but that's usually how I describe it, you know? And, like, when people are usually in that space, they're feeling anything from, you know, apathetic to unable to feel joy from the things that used to bring them joy. They're either unable to sleep or they're sleeping too much or, you know, it's such a collection of, like, symptoms, but it's usually that, like, 360 depletion of I've got nothing. It's usually how I describe it. [00:59:16] Speaker B: I would describe it in a similar way. So the way that I look at burnout is you lose the ability to self regulate because you can't manage your emotional labor anymore. And just for the listeners, just so I could go in on. So emotional labor is. Sounds terrible, but it's actually a good thing. It's that, like, imagine anything that irritates you in the day or not even irritates you. Anything that, like, is a provocative incident, and it could be good or bad, but it elicits an emotional response. And sometimes you want to just let that emotional response happen if you're in the right situation or whatever it is. And other times, you want to either totally push down your reaction to something that's emotionally provocative or push it down halfway and transform it into something. So, like, if someone said something to you at work that really pissed you off or did something that is really, really upset you, instead of, like, swearing at them, which might be, like, your emotional response, you push that halfway down, and you let them know that they upset you, but you're not yelling at them, swearing at them. Everybody can manage a certain amount of emotional labor in a day. And I usually use, like, a dumbbell example where it's like, imagine holding a dumbbell straight out. Some people can handle, like, five pounds of emotional labor a day, and some people can handle, like, 25 pounds, and that can scale up based on, like, life experience, blah, blah, blah. All the stuff. For me, burnout happens when you have had consecutive days where your ability. Where the emotional labor that you're managing in that day is more than your arm can handle. So you're holding a bigger dumbbell than you can hold, and your arm starts going down. The further your arm goes down. The less you have an ability to self regulate your responses to things. And if you have enough days like that in a row, your arm comes all the way down. And that's what I referred to as burnout. And you can't get your arm back up for a while because your arm has to rest and you have to like take the weight out and do all that. And I look at it as three stages. There's like mild burnout, moderate burnout, and severe burnout. Mild burnout is something super common that people experience like multiple times a year. It's just like, you know, you're tired. It's like, you know, if you've ever been binge watched a show, you get burnt out on that tv show. Like, you get burnt out on things all the time. Mild burnout is like super common, happens a lot. And I talk about the stages of burnout having to do with like the letter p. So at each stage you lose like a p. So at mild burnout, you lose your patterns of self care. So when people are mildly burnt out, whatever they do to take care of themselves starts to slip. At moderate burnout, the p that slips is your performance. So like, how you engage in your job starts to change. Either you become avoidant or hyper vigilant, or a combination of the two and the severe burnout. And a p that slips is your personality. And the person who's showing up is quite a bit different. Either they're like more reactive or they're quite a bit less reactive. Either they're like super on and kind of manic, or they're a bit withdrawn. Mild burnout, super common, happens multiple times a year. Easily managed. Moderate burnout, relatively common, happens like maybe once a year or once every couple of years based on big pushes on things. Severe burnout used to be super rare in the workplace, but now its super common due to Covid and its like a mental health event and requires time off. So thats how I describe burnout. And I think its similar to what you were saying. [01:02:34] Speaker A: Thats such a great, I love the dumbbell analogy because I usually say, I usually have like a workshop that I do on burnout prevention because it's obviously easier to prevent it than recover from it. To your point of mild, moderate or severe, you know, if you're experiencing symptoms or burnout, or like I call it a burnout cycle where you like, get to a place where it's too much, you feel overwhelmed or anxious, you know, either are forced to take a step back or you have a long weekend or you take a vacation or whatever, but then you do it again and it just. It's this burnout cycle, almost like detoxing. I always use this example of, like, if you're not detoxing a little bit every day or just helping your body do the natural detox it's supposed to do every single day, that is regulating your nervous system and taking care of yourself, then you're gonna. It's like you eat junk food for a month and then go on like a juice cleanse for a week and keep doing that over and over again. And, you know, there's a better and easier and more sustainable way to do that. But then there's also the idea that we all have different thresholds to different levels of stress. And when we have surpassed our level of our threshold for stressors coming at us, or even our own internal stressors, then we are in some level of burnout, whether we're burnt out, like you said, and we can burn out on anything. I always joke that we get burnt out on using the word burnout because it's like, oh, my God, everyone's talking about burnout. What does it even mean anymore? But you can, like, you know, actually experience a full burnout. But once you realize, like, and this is what I like to work on people with is like, what is your threshold for the stress? And how can we actually, like, extend that ledge? And that's part of the. For me, I consider that part of the burnout prevention is not just taking care of yourself, but also, like, increasing your threshold for what you can tolerate so that you're not as easily burnoutable, if that's the word. [01:04:32] Speaker B: Yeah, no, like that. That's perfect. So, like, my comparison. Like, the comparison work I would do there for what I do is talk about, like, so if you can hold five pounds of emotional labor, how do we extend that out to seven or ten? Like, what are the things we need to learn? Like, how do we build those in totally, like, super similar. Do you want to spend any more time on that? Because I have a bunch of other questions about your practice. [01:04:56] Speaker A: No. Yeah, let's. I feel like we could spend a lot of time on that. And I love talking about this because I never talk about this with people that talk about it as well, so that's really cool. Yeah, we can. We can totally move on. [01:05:05] Speaker B: You had, you know, kind of on the side, like, built up this thing and then sell the company, and then you're in the other company who you'd sold it to, running their marketing but what was the shift where you're like, this is what I'm going to do. [01:05:20] Speaker A: Do you remember, Covid? [01:05:23] Speaker B: I think I heard of it. I think I recall something about that. [01:05:27] Speaker A: There was this global pandemic, and we were all kind of like, what do I really want to do? I don't know if anyone's experienced that. But, yeah, I think we were one or two years in, who knows at this point? But, yeah, I think it was really kind of maybe 2021 ish. And I I had always considered going into wellness, whether it was coaching. You know, I think part of me was always like, I don't know if I could coach full time. Like, maybe I really like it, but, you know, maybe I'll do something in wellness. That was always kind of the something in wellness. And then as I kind of just started, you know, thinking more and more about what I really wanted to do, because I think that time, for a lot of us, from so many of us, really was an introspective time of, like, oh, man, if I could do anything, you know, what would I want to do? And it was hard because I really loved my job. I mean, I loved my job. I loved the company. I loved the people that I brought into the company are still there, and I loved my team, and I loved the team we built. But I just. If I was honest with myself, which finally I was, I really wanted to explore what it would be like to actually have my job be helping people in a different way, not helping with building up their marketing strategy and bringing their music into the world or their product into the world, whether it was an app or, you know, company or whatever, but really focusing on making people, helping people be healthier and helping people just feel better, because I realized that a lot of my conversations were very much about that, even when we were talking about marketing. So I decided to leave, and it was a really big decision, and it was really hard because these, like, that company had become my new family. But then I, you know, I was. I was like, all right, I do need to take some time and kind of figure out what I wanted to do next. I actually ended up. There was a client that I had brought into the company as a marketing client that I was really passionate about their work. It was a wellness app that used music to relieve anxiety that was created with neuroscientists, and they ended up hiring me as their CMO, and I helped to, you know, build up the app and market it. And that was such an amazing experience because it was like a really cool bridge between my music life and my digital marketing life and technology and wellness. So I did that for about a year, but I was building up my coaching business and figuring out what that would look like. And then after that sort of stint I ended up kind of unveiling myself as, okay, I'm actually doing this now. So it was a gradual process. [01:08:19] Speaker B: So coaching is an ill defined, ill understood thing. And, you know, as we've mentioned earlier, a ton of people are just like getting into coaching and calling themselves coaches. And again, like, more the better. I'm fine with it. You know, it's like, I think the people who are really good and have a solid approach, they'll, they'll, you know, be able to do it for long term and great, create great practices. Those who don't, won't. It's no big deal. Um, but one of the things that, you know, I, I joke about a lot with uh, with people that I know is that like if you ask people, if you ask people who call themselves a coach, what is coaching? How's it different than being a mentor? And then what's your approach? You're going to get 9000 different answers. So what, from your perspective, what is coaching? [01:09:08] Speaker A: Coaching to me is a partnership between the client and the coach in that it's my job as a coach to help you find the things that are already in you that you just kind of don't know where they are. I sort of liken it too. And sometimes I do say this to clients. It's like there are things that you can't find and they're in your house. We have to trust that they're in there. But I'm going to help. Even if I know where they are, I'm going to tell you we're going to go together and find them and figure out how you can use those. And those are your strengths. Those are the, the things that you need to access to meet your goals and whether those things are like, to be eating better or I have confidence issues or limiting beliefs or. It's my job to not tell you where they are but to help you find them for yourself. [01:10:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. What a great descriptor. So what's the difference between mentoring and coaching? [01:10:21] Speaker A: I think mentoring, you're modeling your experience a little bit. You're giving advice a lot more than when you're coaching. I think a lot of people when they come to coaching, they want advice and they want to just tell me what to do, just tell me what to eat, just tell me what to say, tell me what to think. And that just doesn't last as long as when somebody has a breakthrough of why they, for years and years and years have been doing something one way and it doesn't work anymore. So when you are looking at mentors, maybe are, well, this is what worked for me, and these are the people that I met, and this is how I did this, and I can introduce you to people if you want, or this is what I would say to do in this situation. Whereas a coach, first of all, asks more questions than tells more things. So it's, you know, mostly evoking and question asking and very, very seldom actually offering advice or suggestions. And I think a mentor sort of, like I said, models something of, this is how I got here, and this is what I learned along the way. [01:11:28] Speaker B: Great, great descriptor. So, finally, this is something that really impressed me about when Monica shared you guys your conversation and shared with me your material. You use very often when I speak to coaches. And I don't mean this as a slight to anyone because it's totally not intended to be. There isn't always a body of work that they apply to it. It's more just kind of like, oh, we'll just see where the conversation goes where you have. And I don't want to say this for you, but it seems when I was looking at your stuff that you have actually a much more very specific approach to your process. So what's your approach to coaching? [01:12:09] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I do. I think it's. It's, you know, modular, as I call it. You know, it's not too structured where it's like every, every session we show up and we talk about a specific thing. But I do look at people, you know, I look at my clients from a whole person perspective. And one of the certifications I have is in a methodology called the five archetypes, which is based on the chinese five elements, and the reason that I use it, and coaches use different systems, different, you know, personality types, you know, systems. And some coaches, especially, you know, executive coaches use, like, disc assessments and all kinds of different things. This is, I think, a little bit different because it's looking at the person. It's not saying, so we all have all five of these elements in us, and it's. It kind of unites people instead of like, well, you're in this bucket and you're in this bucket. That said, I love when, when clients bring, like, all their different assessments, maybe something they did at work, maybe. Maybe they'll bring, like, their human design, if they're into that, or they'll bring, I'm like, great, you know, bring it. Let's, let's look at all of it. If I can understand it, like, and it's cool to see the layers and how everything intersects, but I bring that up because that's a, that's an important piece to my work. Even if the client takes the assessment and we look at the results and we never talk about them again if they're really not into it. I know how I should approach conversations, how this person probably takes in information, where this person probably gets into their own way, where their strengths become their weaknesses, what they need to work on more than anything, but why that's hard for them and where we have to kind of, like, circumvent to get there over time. So that's kind of part of my structure that I use. And then I would say the other kind of body of work, as you said, is sort of looking at things from mindset, nutrition, physical activity, sleep and rest, and mindset kind of being the bucket, you know, sort of maybe supporting all those other things. Because no matter what a client comes to me with, whether it's I want to eat better or I can't get a promotion or, you know, whatever, the thing is, we're talking about mindset. We're talking about growth mindset versus thick mindset. We're talking about they're, you know, reframing all of these things that are of kind of basic, but if we don't know about them, then we don't know about them. And if we don't know where we're getting in our own way, then we can't, you know, address things that we're not aware of. So that's kind of a. Maybe a roundabout kind of way of explaining my process, but that's usually where I start. [01:14:52] Speaker B: That's, that's a solid, really solid explanation. I. Do you do you know a lot of other coaches? [01:14:59] Speaker A: Yeah. I would like to know more because I think it's always fascinating to share our experiences, but I think I'm really fortunate that I know a lot of different types of coaches. So I know some wellness coaches. I know some executive coaches, and sometimes I even refer to what I do as, like, holistic executive coaching because some of my clients, we literally never talk about food. They just, it's, it's. But it. But we are talking about the whole person, so that's interesting. But, yeah, I do. I do know some coaches, and I really enjoy talking with other coaches. [01:15:30] Speaker B: I like it. I find myself, like, 50% of the time being in the bucket where I'm at now, where I'm like, oh, that's cool. Like, wow, you've got, like, a great approach, you know, that's awesome. Like, more intrigued. Like, wow, tell me more. And thinking, like, oh, like, how does that compare to what I do? And then 50% of the time I'm like, but I don't understand. What do you do with people? Like, what is what? Like, do you just show up and you're just like, hey, how's it going? What's going on? You just kind of, like, spitball and that's the end of the thing. Yeah. And again, there's like, I know there's so many different ways that people like to work with other people and that they like to be assisted and supported. It's like, of course there's people who just like to meet up and not have any structure and not have a certain approach, and they love that. And there's other people who want to approach, and some people want stuff that's, like, very, very structured. Structured and, like, that whole spectrum of things. But it is like a 50 50 mix for me where, like, again, half the time I'm like, whoa, that's super cool. Wow. Like, I'm really intrigued by your process. And other times I'm like, well, what do you do? Like, literally, you just seem like you're. [01:16:32] Speaker A: Hanging out, which maybe that is their process, and maybe it attracts a certain type of person that they get a lot of results from that, you know? I feel the same way. That's cool. I don't get it. Awesome. Like, great. [01:16:47] Speaker B: Just like, there's types of music I don't get. It's like, cool. You're into that. That's awesome. That's like, I don't get any enjoyment out of that. [01:16:54] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. [01:16:56] Speaker B: All right, so something that you and I were kind of chuckling about a little bit earlier on before we started recording, is the question that I love getting asked when I'm meeting with a new client. And either it could be a one to one client, or if we're doing, like, a bigger contract and we're dealing with, like, a learning group or their internal development group, we get asked the question, well, how do we know it's going to work? Or how. How are we going to measure success? So how do you handle that when you get asked that by a client? [01:17:23] Speaker A: I actually really like when I'm asked that by a client, and it's very similar to when I was doing marketing, because there's a lot of ways to measure success, you know, and unless you know how someone is going to measure their success or their progress, you can't know which direction to go in. You know, I had clients where you can't assume, like, you know, if when I was doing marketing, does the client want, is it. Is, are they only going to be successful when they get x amount of Instagram followers, or do they just want, like, this person to post about them, or do they just want, you know, how do they qualify success? So it's very, very similar with coaching. And we do. We do. I mean, I have my clients fill out, like, a whole questionnaire before we start, and that really kind of gives me some insight into what they look for in terms of success or goals. But I usually ask back to them, how will you know that we're successful? What are you looking to change? What's the vision that you have for yourself in the next three to six months that you'll be like, if I can feel or do or be this, we've done it. Because if we don't both have a collective vision of what that is, we don't know where we're going, and we can't put together a plan. [01:18:39] Speaker B: Amazing. So, now that you've been on this. This coaching journey, I know that you used to work with, like, a variety of clients, but they do tend to be more centered into the kind of, like, the music or the creative space. Is that correct? [01:18:52] Speaker A: Yeah. I tend to say that my clients are generally creative professionals. I think because they're the. We are a unique species, you know, we have to think differently. We have different types of lives. Things aren't as cut and dry as it's like, oh, well, the wellness people say to go to bed at the same time every night. Okay, well, my band goes on at 11:00 and I've got a 09:00 a.m. meeting. Like, how's that going to work? So, things like that resonate with either the music industry, but also I've got clients that are designers, writers, and every day is different. We have different challenges, and also, like I said, entrepreneurs as well. I absolutely consider creative professionals 100%. [01:19:36] Speaker B: So, in my time playing music, and I was just talking with. Are you familiar with the YouTube channel punk rock MbA? [01:19:46] Speaker A: No, but I need to know about this. What is it? [01:19:50] Speaker B: Well, it's my friend Finn McKinty, who I've known since I was, like, pretty young. He was, like, a corporate professional just like anyone, and he always liked music. Like, he liked music that we all liked, but he always liked music that everyone would make fun of him for. So he liked Christina Aguilera and Pantera, right? He was the guy. [01:20:11] Speaker A: So much respect. [01:20:12] Speaker B: He was the guy. Totally. And people would always kind of. How do I always. He would do these zines that were, like, super strange and, like, he would do interviews that were, like, kind of fun, like, kind of uncomfortable and kind of funny. He was just, like, always this super interesting guy. And for a while, he did a website called stuff you will hate. That sounds where he would just. I am 100% positive that during your time, you have come across it. Like, it was kind of during the ish, the MySpace era, and he would highlight bands that, like, you know, just bands that everyone was like, this is the, like, actual garbage. And he would. He would find what was good about it and, like, talk about it. Totally. It was amazing. It was like a blog. And he would, like, talk about it and be like, do you remember the band? I don't know if you ever heard of a band called attack. Attack. [01:21:13] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. [01:21:16] Speaker B: So, like, when they put out their very first video with, like, their original singer, he, like, brought that to, like, hardcore. Like, in terms of, like, look at this. And I remember people just being, like, disgusted, like, oh, how dare you highlight this garbage? And, like, he was really. And he wasn't doing it tongue in cheek. He's like, this is what's daring about it. This is what's interesting about it. Like, hey, you know, this is why, like, okay, cool. You like youth of today. Like, what are you too much of a wimp to be able to, like, step outside of your frame and see how creative this is? And, like, just. He's. Finn is, like, an amazing guy and is just always marched to his own tune. Anyways, that was a very long explanation to say that he does a YouTube channel called the punk rock NBA, and he is just this fascinating guy where he talks about music and breaks it down. He's always got this really deeply interesting take on it. Him and I were texting yesterday, and we were talking about people in music and how both him and I, he's still very involved in music. I'm much less so how music can be this incredible thing for people. And this is, like, amazing. Not just as an audience member, but as a creative. It can be this amazing thing, but it can also just make you so anxious and low self esteem and afraid and angry and jealous and envious. It could bring out the most highest of highs in people. And, like, the absolute worst behaviors, the most horrible, horrible behavior, and, like, really just be, also be very difficult for the creator themselves. So when I was looking at your brief that Monica put together, I was like, oh, my gosh, you must have a lot of conversations. Like, you must have some wild conversations as a coach in this area. [01:23:07] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. With artists and people on the industry side, because it's, it's such an interesting industry as, you know. And I always start out, whenever I talk about stress and burnout in the music industry, I'm like, there's stress and burnout in every industry. We are not unique, but there are some unique things about our industry that bring out, you know, all of this stuff in everyone. You know, there's always this, I mean, for just at the very bare, you know, bones of it. It's an industry based around human beings being the product, for lack of a better word. But that is actually the word that's used at labels. You know, it's, the product is the music, but if you don't have the human being, you don't have the music. So it's a, you know, you have entire empires built around a band or sometimes one human, you know, and their ability to create work that people want. And if it's not what people want, you know, it's like, yeah, we want to hear what you're creating, but we want it to be what we want. And, you know, it, it's a wild industry, you know, and you have artists that their whole life, they take their whole, you know, they write their first record, and that record is basically their entire life to that point. And then it, and then it's like, cool, awesome, great job. We want another record. And it's like, oh, well, I, those were my experiences from my entire existence up to this point, and now I need to write another record like that in the next six months. So there's just so much, I mean, it's. And then all of the people, you know, behind the scenes and all of the pressures involved there, and everything's always very immediate, and there are ever changing deadlines, and there's so many moving parts, and it's. There's a lot of conversations to be had about that, for sure. Yeah. [01:25:11] Speaker B: So my question, because I realized I hadn't actually posted a question, is, how do you manage, you manage the line between coaching people and, like, holistic coaching? And I really like, I like your approach. I think it's, like, really, really cool. How do you manage the boundary between that and therapy? And the reason I'm saying that is like, some of the. Some of the most. Some of the best experiences I've ever had in my life are with musicians and some of the absolute most nightmare scenario situations I've ever had with musicians and sometimes with the same musician, like, like the best experience and the worst experience. It is an area that I think is prone to, like, a lot of people feeling great depths of depression, anxiety, poor behavior and all that. So how do you professionally manage that line between being a coach and a therapist? [01:26:01] Speaker A: Yeah, it's such a great question. And I was talking about this with a therapist who works with musicians a couple weeks ago because they were like, aren't you frustrated that your scope only goes so far? And there's a point where you have to say, like, that's out of my scope. And sometimes, yes, you know, and I, when I do see, when I do have a client who it's, you know, it's usually apparent even from our first conversation or from what they fill out before we start working together. There is a mental health condition. I have to make sure that they're working with the therapist as well. That is just a non negotiable for me because if somebody is experiencing things or they're on medication or, you know, something like that, I need to know that it's being managed by a mental health professional, and then our work can be supplemental to that. So we can work on, you know, we can look at nutrition. We can, you know, I'm not even going to make suggestions on supplements. I'm going to say, well, this is something that you can look into. You can talk to your doctor about this. You can do some research on it if you feel like it's, you know, something that might help you and that, and it doesn't conflict with anything else that might be interesting for you to look into. So it is sometimes a line to walk, but I generally draw the line at, you know, actual mental health conditions like anxiety, depression, extreme anxiety, depression, things like that, and trauma. So if we're getting into talking about trauma, not that we never talk about the past, but our work is generally focused on, okay, here's where we are and here's where we want to go, we will, of course, talk about, like, where did these stories start? What, you know, where did we kind of start these behaviors and things like that? And are they serving us and things like that? But once we get into kind of the, where a therapist, where a trained, licensed mental health professional would need to. To take over, I'll usually say, make, this is something that you should talk about with your therapist or, you know, kind of scale it back from there. But it happens every so often, and it usually happens with somebody that's already seeing a therapist. So I can kind of refer back of, this is something that you should probably. Let's, let's, you know, talk to your therapist about that. [01:28:21] Speaker B: Heck yeah. Awesome. All right, as we're heading towards the close of the interview, I'm going to go into what we call the crucial three, which is going to be three scaling up and difficulty questions. But before we get into that, is there anything you want to explore, anything you want to ask, anything you want to pop into the conversation? [01:28:39] Speaker A: Well, I would like, from your point of view, as somebody who's, you know, an entrepreneur who is a coach, themselves, running a business, you have any sort of maybe performance based wellness non negotiables in your life? [01:28:56] Speaker B: For my own life, yeah. [01:28:59] Speaker A: I always love asking people that. [01:29:01] Speaker B: Okay, um, hold on a second. How personal can I get? The most important relationship in my life is my wife, and I have to remind myself that, and that's got to be, like, forefront. So my ability to be a great father, um, a great boss, a great coach, and all of those things is completely dependent on how good my relationship with my wife is. And it's like my first tier relationship. When I talk to, um, executives or teams about. About teams, I was. I always use, like, the first team principle. Like, are you on the team? Are you on the executive team and you lead these groups, or are you on that team and you just happen to sit on the executive team? Like, what's your first team? If I don't have a great relationship with my wife, I'm only going to be. I'm going to be versions of good as a father, as a boss, as a coach. So it's the most important relationship. But on the flip side, you know what it's like, like being married, living with someone, being together all the time. Like, I use this term baby fits. Like, to most people, I'm like, a pretty, like, plugged in, like, real calm guy. But my wife sees me have, like, baby fits about stuff where I'll be like. Like, stomp my foot and, like, be pissed off. My biggest non negotiable is that if I actually Orlando, if I act shady to own it, apologize and course correct, or if I'm not attentive enough, or I'm not, in the moment, enough of my phone too much, I really, really focus on that. It's my biggest non negotiable. I don't travel without my wife, and I travel a lot for work. I don't travel without my life. I don't spend time apart. I never let anything get in the way of our relationship. And that's my biggest non negotiable, because it's the key to being good and great in all the other spaces. [01:30:46] Speaker A: I love that. That's awesome. [01:30:48] Speaker B: Took me a long time to learn that. Like, a lot of. A lot. A lot of ups and downs, not in our relationship, but in life. In life together. [01:30:58] Speaker A: In life. Yeah. And then you're like, oh, this is the thing. Yeah, that's. That's a pretty good thing to learn, though. That's great. And it's important for a coach, too, you know, of how to support yourself so you can be there for other people and hold the space. So I love. I just love hearing about that. So that's cool. [01:31:12] Speaker B: Thank you. Anything else you want to hit on before we hit to the. To the dreaded, crucial three? [01:31:18] Speaker A: Let's go. Let's go. Let's do it. [01:31:20] Speaker B: Okay. All right. Question. I always like to start it, like, well, we start with the easiest one, and I am very interested in your response to this. So I know you've worked with bands that everyone would know, and you've probably worked with bands that some people would know, and this doesn't even have to be bands that you've worked with necessarily. But are there any bands that you either love or have worked with or know personally? Like, what are three bands that didn't get the attention, the shine, the moment that they deserved to get from your perspective? So three bands. What are three bands where you're like, they should have been this, but they just didn't have their moment. [01:32:05] Speaker A: Oh, man. Oh, God. I could think of tons. I mean, and I don't know if it's not even that some of them didn't have their moment, but, like, something happened and, you know, you know, the industry went different way or whatever. I'm probably going to start back with some of the early bands that I worked with, but I think the second client I ever had at sneak attack was a band called annuals. They were, like, all over the blogs. They were blog darlings. Remember when that was a thing? They were so good, and they were really young, and the lead singer, Adam, was such an incredible songwriter and musician, and I would love for them to be a band today and just see what they would have grown into. They're all making music in their own way, but they're definitely one in my management days we worked with a band, Morningwood. They were amazing. They're all still doing their thing as well, separately. But I just really think that they. I always thought they should have been bigger, you know, they did do really well, but still always going to be a big fan of them and the work. Let's see who's going to be my third. I could make it name 100. And let's see, there's bands that I listen to still that I worked with that I'm trying to think of one. Wow, I should have studied for this. This would have been a good preparation. One. I'm, like, so tempted to look at my Spotify. I've probably worked with, like, over a thousand bands with sneak attack. And it's like thinking back to all of those bands that just, you know, never got past a certain point. I'm gonna also. I'm gonna talk. I'm gonna say the. My very first client with. At sneak attack because I really loved them and I would say so. [01:34:21] Speaker B: They're. [01:34:21] Speaker A: They're canadian. Band called Priestess from Montreal. I don't know what they're up to now, but they were so good. And, you know, these are bands that they all did really well for themselves. But are they, you know, were they household names? No. And I think that they're all awesome. So check them out. [01:34:41] Speaker B: I got a joke for you. How do you know if a band is canadian? [01:34:46] Speaker A: I don't know. [01:34:48] Speaker B: Don't worry. A Canadian will tell you. [01:34:50] Speaker A: I was going to say, don't worry. They'll tell you. [01:34:54] Speaker B: If we have, like, a director or an actor or a writer or a musician that does anything of note, it will be the, like, oh, have you heard this band, pre? Yeah, yeah, they're canadian. [01:35:07] Speaker A: They're canadian. [01:35:07] Speaker B: They're canadian. Like, oh, yeah. You know, I really love kids in the hall. Well, you know, they're canadian, right? [01:35:15] Speaker A: Winnie the Pooh. I feel like I do that having worked with so many canadian fans. But will, they're can. And then when I'm talking to someone who is also canadian, I'm like, well, they're canadian. Do you know them? [01:35:26] Speaker B: Mike? Did you say Winnie the Pooh? Winnie the Pooh is canadian. [01:35:30] Speaker A: Winnie the Pooh is canadian. [01:35:32] Speaker B: I would have thought English. He went to English. He went to England. [01:35:36] Speaker A: He got bought in Ontario by a soldier on his way to England in the first world war. [01:35:40] Speaker B: Whoa. [01:35:42] Speaker A: How do you know this Winnie the Pooh trivia? This is fascinating. There was a canadian heritage moment on it. [01:35:50] Speaker B: No, you can be sure we'll take. [01:35:52] Speaker A: Very good care of the bear. [01:35:53] Speaker B: You are noting that it's the official. [01:35:55] Speaker A: Mascot of the second Canadian Infantry Brigade. Yes, sir. [01:36:00] Speaker B: So long, Winnie. You'd be a good girl while I'm gone. [01:36:04] Speaker A: Why, Winnie, sir? From my hometown, Winnipeg. [01:36:08] Speaker B: We used to have these canadian heritage, like, little. Little commercials. [01:36:13] Speaker A: Oh, my God. Really? That's amazing. [01:36:16] Speaker B: All right, are you ready for question number two? [01:36:19] Speaker A: That was the easy one. Oh, my God. [01:36:21] Speaker B: That was the easiest. That was the easiest. Okay, this one is wherever you want to go, whatever you're comfortable sharing. Um, so your career has been this kind of, like, ever scaling leap of, like, I'll just figure, I'm just going to leap and I'll figure it out before I land. I'll. I'll stick the landing. I'll figure it out as I go, which I love. I absolutely love. I think it's one of the coolest parts of your story in this space now, being a coach, it's, uh, it's an interesting thing because people trust you with a lot, and people really, really put a lot of faith in their coach. It's a vulnerable thing. So what have you learned about yourself in your career and in your path that you didn't like about yourself and that you've had to work on and change in order to be an effective coach? [01:37:13] Speaker A: I mean, probably the main thing, this is actually way easier than that one. Probably the main thing is I am a problem solver. So it's really, I've had to learn to in managing a team, but also in coaching people, that it is not about me and my idea for how to solve the problem. It is about helping someone else else and being curious about how they might solve the problem. That was a really hard thing for me to kind of just stop, you know, just course correct myself on, because I'd want to be like, oh, I know. You know, it's like, that's not the thing. [01:38:05] Speaker B: How did you course correct, though? [01:38:06] Speaker A: Like, what is it that you did in managing people? It took me a long time, I think, because when it's your company, you're like, just do it this way. This is, you know, and I have clients that manage people, and I'm helping them now understand, really, what I wish I would have known even more back when I was managing a team that I've learned as a coach that, you know, like I said before, coaching is not giving advice. It's not telling people what to do. It's about helping people figure out for them what works best so that they can take that with them. And then it becomes a habit. So I had to do that for myself and make it a habit. So I had to shut up and listen, and I like to talk, so that is hard. But I just had to practice, you know? And really, like, sometimes I literally had. At the very beginning, I had to literally just be like, like, don't say anything because it's not my. It's not. I'm not going to help, you know? And, like, really, I'm sure you've had this, too. You know, some of the greatest generative moments come from when you just do not say anything and you just let the person in front of you get there. So just because they're not talking, it doesn't mean that they're not forming some sort of really huge revelation or breakthrough. And the minute I talked, I can ruin that. So it's really up to me to just, like, let them do that and be there to kind of hold the space for them as they work through that moment. [01:39:46] Speaker B: Heck, yeah. All right. You ready for the last one? [01:39:50] Speaker A: I think so. [01:39:52] Speaker B: Well, you said the second one was easier, so now I'm like, okay, I got to really. This might be hard, it might not, but I instantly wanted to know this. So I love the question that you use with clients when they say, how do I know this is going to work? And you basically flip it. It was like, well, how do you know if it's going to work? What does success look like for you? So let's think about your career now, and who knows? Maybe you'll have another career or another career. But let's just assume this is your career until you're ready to do something else. What does success look like for you? How will you know you've been successful as a coach and done something that truly is meaningful to you? [01:40:42] Speaker A: That is a hard question. My favorite part about coaching is seeing people be able to celebrate their progress and their success and be able to recognize what it means for them to change and grow into a place where they didn't think. Like, I had a client the other day who said, oh, I think this isn't as hard as I thought it was going to be because our work is just helping people sort of shift the mirror a little bit and see it from a different angle of, oh, that's it. Okay, maybe that'll take practice. But I thought I was going to have to, like, change my whole life. So I think that's, in a way, success for me, doing that as, you know, as my job as a gift, and being able to do that for people that, you know, can sustainably incorporate that into their life. And maybe I don't even know about it, but they help other people do that as well, either at work because of the people that work for them or with them or in their families or in their relationships. But that is really cool to me. And if I can help somebody, you know, flip their behavior or flip their mindset, and then they can take that with them for the long term and help other people do the same, that's really freaking cool to me. [01:42:11] Speaker B: Heck, yeah. All right. This has been a super, super cool conversation. I had a ton of fun with it. Any last thoughts? Anything you want to shout out or anything you want to say as we're. [01:42:21] Speaker A: Closing off, I just want to thank you for having this chat with me. It's so fun to talk to another coach and nerd out about this stuff. Really, really cool. Thanks for having me. [01:42:34] Speaker B: Hey. Heck, yeah. All right, so we'll have all your information down below on the episode. Thank you so much for your time and everyone. You know, I say this a lot. You know, does everyone need a coach all the time? No. Like, I mean, there's all sorts of times in your life where you're just like, great. You're totally kicking butt, you're doing good. And there's times where you might want to think about how you push yourself, how you grow, how do you go into that next thing? How do you hold up a mirror? That's the time for a coach, and there's nothing wrong for getting help, whether it's through a mentor or through a coach or just pairing up with or pairing up with someone that you know. But doing it on your own all the time isn't always a recipe for growth. So with that, keep pushing yourself, and I'll look forward to seeing you next time. On one step beyond. [01:43:18] Speaker A: One step. One step. One step beyond.