Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: For most of human history, we were mid level primates who were subject to a whole host of issues, whether it was saber toothed tigers, cave bears, starvation, all that stuff. We were not necessarily destined to be rulers of the world in the way that humans are today. And the thing that propelled our rise was developing the ability to have language, which then gave us the ability to tell stories. And once we could tell stories, we could enable cooperation at scale. So if you look at, like, our primate cousins, they can't cooperate in groups above 150 because they have no way to, you know, tell a story and create meaning and roles and identity that would be able to facilitate that. But human beings can tell a story about a religion, a company, or anything that enables, you know, billions of people to all work towards a common task. And so, like, as far as what I do, I think when you look at that initial phase of any change we're gonna make, it's like, what's the story here? And what's the story that's going to resonate and meet people where they are and actually maybe make their. Their heartbeat a little bit?
[00:01:02] Speaker B: That was a clip from today's guest.
You know, everyone, there's a running theme throughout the podcast, and we're always joking about it, you know, behind the scenes. It's like, well, this isn't really like a punk turns professional podcast. It's really a professional podcast that just happens to have a lot of people from the punk scene on it. But I don't know, like, the longer we go on, it's just like, there's so many people from the punk scene that are doing stuff that's so interesting and cool professionally and not just, like, in the corporate world or the business world, but going on to do, like, creative things or, like, writing or acting or any of these things. And the more we go on, I keep saying, like, oh, we got to get more people who aren't from the punk scene, but, like, here we go. You know, I just. I've just drawn to my people, and it's the scene I came up with. It's the scene of creative minds that I'm just always so drawn to talking to. So, I don't know, maybe I'll stop saying that. But with that in mind, today's guest is someone who is not only a really, really interesting, interesting creative and business mind, but I also was just, like, a super cool person, personal friend, and helped me very much in the early days of cadence. So it's a conversation that I've been waiting for for a long time. I know it's going to be a great one, and I'm expecting you're going to enjoy it as well. So before we get to it, please subscribe to the podcast. Turn on your notifications. My name is Aram Arslanian, and this is one step beyond Matt. Welcome to the show, Ram.
[00:02:41] Speaker A: It's great to be here. Thanks for having me.
[00:02:43] Speaker B: Heck, yeah. So listen, for the uninitiated, for those who don't know, who are you and what do you do?
[00:02:49] Speaker A: Well, yeah, Ram, you know, I would expect most folks actually don't know who I am. And so if I gave you the abridged version, I grew up in a small town in Iowa on the banks of Mississippi, came up listening to punk and hardcore music, and played in a few, you know, pretty bad bands. But I got the opportunity to see a lot of really good bands, and I think that was transformative in a lot of ways in my life. I went to school at the University of Iowa, studied math and philosophy, and then went straight into a graduate program of mathematics, where I studied something called differential topology. I went from there to Michigan, where I started a PhD program, and I had the opportunity. At that point, I was playing in a hardcore band, and we had done a couple records, and there was just enough of a glimmer of hope that we might try and tour full time. And so I decided to step away from my PhD program and give it a go. And we spent a couple years on the road, and it was on those tours, actually, that I read books that weren't about math or philosophy for the first time in my life. And I see that as really you can look at the inflection points in your life where you see that big things change. And that was one of them. And the types of books that I was reading at the time were about war and conflict. And so by the time the band kind of wound down, I really wanted to go and work, of all things, for the United States government. And so I called the drummer sister who happened to work at a defense intelligence agency, and I said, hey, can I get a job? And she's like, yeah, you know, like, we have cryptographers, people who do math for, like, coding and that sort of stuff. I said, no, no, no, I want to work in, like, defense policy. I want to shape how we engage our friends and allies and enemies. And she's like, yeah, man, you can't do that. You got to go back to school. So I went back to University of Michigan, got a degree in public policy, and then came out to work and the office of Secretary of defense and the Obama administration doing what we called responding to contingencies. So that's a government way of saying when really bad things happen in countries. Like, my first issue was when Muammar Gaddafi got killed in Libya. We had three different militias trying to become the new government and there was a very real risk of civil war. So we're trying to figure out how can we intervene in this situation to maybe help create a little peace and preserve civilians. So I did that for five years. And then in the process, ironically, the Pentagon ended up being something of a writing workshop for me. And I can explain more about that later. But I started writing non fiction stories and a blog that caught on enough that I was able to do a book. And then I moved down to Richmond, Virginia, and I used that book as a prop to fast talk my way into the job that I do now, which is really corporate strategy and communications amazing.
[00:05:38] Speaker B: So let's just start for the people that we know who are like, dude, what band were you in? Tell us about the band that you're in, that you're touring, you put some records out. Just so we have a good launching point.
[00:05:49] Speaker A: Man, aram, this is like the one thing I was hoping you wouldn't ask. So the last band I was in was called ignite the Will. And it was pretty heavy nineties influence hardcore band. And we were around I think, early, two thousands. And we did a record on double or nothing records, which was, you know, it's like we always found ourselves playing with these really rough characters. Like, our lyrics were political and positive, but I think everybody we toured with was, you know, maybe a little different side of the coin. But anyway, it was a blast doing those things.
[00:06:23] Speaker B: Yeah, it's funny, like to kind of dip into hardcore for a second. It's funny because it's. It is such a, like, culturally diverse place in terms of just like the different backgrounds that people come from and like, the things that people are into. So if someone said to me like, oh, you're in punk? I'd be like, if it was just like someone outside of that world, I'd be like, oh yeah, I'm into punk. But then in my mind I'm like going through like all of the subcategories. It's like, well, you don't really know. I'm actually into hardcore. And in hardcore I'm actually into this kind of hardcore. And within that I'm actually into that. And if you play on a bill, you're playing with five, like, hardcore bands, but they'd be coming from totally different places. And I'd say, like, hardcore for me was like, one of the most interesting things of me, learning how to, like, deal with people who are part of the. Part of the same thing. Like, we are part of the same thing, but we have radically different perspectives and we're coming together to do something. And that thing is just put on a show that, that has a beginning, a middle and an end, and everyone leaves feeling, like, happy.
All right, interesting. Interesting path you took to get to where you're at. So where do you want to start, man? Do you want to talk about growing up in Iowa? Do you want to talk about your academic career? Do you want to talk about that inflection point? Where do you want to go?
[00:07:37] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, I think if you look at it, the.
I mean, because I've listened to a lot of your episodes, Ram, and I think one of the things I find that's really compelling and interesting is when you look at sort of what happens to a person when they come up in punk and hardcore and how they take things away from that, that shape their engagement with the world and with their career from that point forward. So I think in a lot of ways that would probably be most interesting for me is just looking at, like, you know, what did I learn and what did I pick up through that journey and how did it shape sort of the way that I show up in a corporation now?
[00:08:13] Speaker B: Yeah. So let me ask you something right off the hop, and then we can kind of like, start. Start moving around punk and hardcore. You come up with the frame. At least I won't say this for you. I'll say this for me. I grew up in Calgary, Alberta, which was a relatively conservative area of Canada. And I grew up with a very, like, culturally diverse background. Like, my parents were both from different cultures, got married. They were both immigrants. My sister and I both have kind of exotic names. So we grew up kind of, um, already being on the outside is being kind of like we were like the. The immigrants in the neighborhood. Even though my sister, or, well, I was born in Canada, my sister wasn't. So, like, right from the start, when I. When I came up, I always kind of had that, like, sense of being an outsider. So, boom. Drawn to skateboarding, drawn to punk, punk rock, drawn to culture. And punk rock really worked for me because it's like Dave Kennedy's. It's like cultural critique, you know? 7 seconds. Social critique. Like, everything was about critiquing things, which if you're an outsider, you're like, hell yeah. Like, I got a problem with all of you. So I grew up with this very, very critical mindset about everything, and it has helped me a lot in, in the work that I do. But it did give me a kind of moment where I was like, you know, I'm trying to too broadly apply this framework to everything, to every situation, to every person. And it really was limiting. So while it was, while it gave me a great launching pad for how to look at the world and how to figure out problems, I also found it, like, really limiting when I went into, like, actual professional life. And that also includes when I was a therapist. So let's just start there. Like, what did, what did punk help you with as a professional? But also, where were some of the pitfalls for it?
[00:10:00] Speaker A: Yeah, it's really interesting, aran, when you think about, like, and this speaks to what you were talking about with the different perspectives we bring, the different reasons we come into, like, bonk and hardcore. For me, it was totally different. And it makes sense probably because of my experience and background. Like, for me, what it was is really that DIy ethos. The idea that you could have the audacity to just sort of create a record where, like, you know, you don't need a producer, you don't need a label or anything like that, or to play a show or to write a song. Like, I think that's what me and my friends originally latched on to. You know, it's like William Faulkner has a quote where he talks about, in order to sail the New Horizons, you have to have the courage to look away from the shore. And I feel like every time I encountered a new band or played in a new band, it was a new frontier where we were like, I wonder if we could create a demo. I wonder if we could play a show. I wonder if we could, like, put out a record. I wonder if we could go on tour. And so it was just a cascade of, like, new sort of frontiers to explore. And so I think for me, punk was always more about, like, the ethos of, like, what could you do with, you know, with, with your friends here that you would have never thought possible? And so we weren't critiquing as much on that regard until I got a little more academic after I did the philosophy major. But, yeah, initially it was that sort of hunger inside.
[00:11:21] Speaker B: So growing up in punk and hardcore, but then going more into, like, the professional sphere, and it could even be like, academia or anything. Were there any pitfalls that were associated with coming in that scene.
[00:11:31] Speaker A: Yeah, it's really interesting because I think some of the counterculture nature of how we grow up and become part of something, you become so used to being different and so comfortable with that that I think I underappreciated that. When you come into a government or corporation, both of which are very bureaucratic, I wasn't fully appreciating all of the social dynamics that take place where people, without even communicating, they're reading body language, they're reading how you're dressing. They're reading how you're operating and already assigning a status to you. And you can sort of stand to the side and take a sort of oppositional, defiant, punk perspective on that, to say, like, oh, that's not for me. You know, like, but you will not actually be an effective operator if you don't understand the social psychological dynamics that happen in these organizations. I think punk did not prepare me for that because it was so just like, yeah, man, this is me. And it took me a minute to learn that, in some ways, the hard way.
[00:12:35] Speaker B: Do you mind if I talk about work politics, workplace politics, for a sec?
[00:12:39] Speaker A: That's fine. Yeah.
[00:12:41] Speaker B: So what you're talking about there, I think, like, you can tuck into the idea of workplace politics. And one of the things I share with people is if you've ever been in a tour van for, like, three days, that's going to be politics. That's like, workplace politics right there. So when people are like, oh, you know, I get this a lot. Like, I get this almost every week.
So political at work, or I don't play politics. I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, I have neighbors on either side of my house. And, like, we, like, we squabble with each other about the recycling. Like, politics is just people trying to figure out the social order of how to get things done. Who do we listen to? Who do we not listen to? Who holds esteem within our group, who doesn't hold esteem within our group, who has the power to place these things? And it's not good or bad. It's just human nature to get into these things. And we can call it politics, because when you call something politics, it's dismissive. And you're kind of being like, I'm better than that. But even by saying that, you're actually being very political. So when someone says to me, I don't play politics. I always say, like, that's, like, one of the most political things you can say because you're trying to actually position yourself above a system. It's beneath you. And now you want that system to cater to how you are. Politics within group dynamics is like, get in a tour van. You're on tour for six weeks. It's going to be like a political campaign of who's. Like, you know, who's the president of the van? Like, it's just real. So there's a lot of wisdom in what you said, because I. Not just for punks, but for anyone getting in. Into any kind of professional situation, even if it's in a not for profit, there's going to be that kind of in group out group, how people interact, how people get done, how people get resources. And it's very wise to start understanding social dynamics and really know how to work very well within them to get.
[00:14:35] Speaker A: Good results for everyone, 100%, and to develop the ability to, like, actually listen. It's very rare. You know, I didn't have that skill when I was younger. And, you know, had I been in the van listening more, observing more understanding, like, why people are asking the questions or saying the things they're saying, and trying to really understand the context of where these people are around you, I would have been a lot more effective in that context, too. And, you know, I think I had the luxury in Iowa where, you know, where we were from, it was. It was not a big enough sort of market to bring in big package tours. But we were very lucky because we had, you know, a guy named Mickey Nolan who. Who brought in, you know, Los Krutos and, like, all these amazing nineties bands that were, like, really genuine and impact with all the ethos that we, you know, like, just. I mean, my entire value system came from Mickey making mixtapes and doing those shows. And one of the sort of downsides of having that little utopian bubble is that we didn't have to worry about. It truly wasn't the sort of thing where there was. We had no status. We weren't cool. You know, this wasn't a major city, so we didn't have, like, the sort of the experience I think other people do when. When it's like, oh, who's the N band? Like, you know, like, all that stuff. Like. And so, for me, I had to learn a lot of that stuff later in life than I would have. But you're exactly right. It's everywhere.
[00:16:08] Speaker B: Well, and also shout out to Las Crudos, who I don't know, who would maybe possibly be horrified. They're getting this, like, shout out on the podcast, but God damn it, Las Crudos.
Talk about a band that in many ways changed everything. And really, I was very lucky when I was young to be able to play a show with Los Kurtos with my very first band when I was, like, really, really young. We played it in Seattle. We played a show with them in Seattle at a house called the Goat house that was in Capitol Hill. And seeing that band, like, legitimately changed my life, I was like, I have never so much understood how much a bigger thing this is in a social movement than it is. This is one of the most powerful, most important bands of all time.
[00:16:53] Speaker A: 100%.
And that speaks to probably, like, when you were talking about, like, what I pull away that palpable energy of, like, I mean, it's like a spiritual experience in those rooms. And I've. I've never forgotten those times. And I've had a sin, certainly, but it. I fully appreciate now how rare and powerful those experiences were when you had a band like that who is emoting in such a way that it's just like the entire space is transformed. And the energy that they collectively created just by plugging in some instruments and playing a few notes was unreal.
[00:17:26] Speaker B: Yeah, 100%. All right, so tell us about the posting in the Department of Defense. It's an interesting shift where you're like, hey, I'm going to pursue this academic path. And it was philosophy that you were going to be doing your PhD in, is that correct?
[00:17:40] Speaker A: Yeah, it was actually math. I was going to do it in.
And so, yeah, the shift. So what happened, like, really is we were on tour in 2006 with this wonderful west coast band I don't think many people care about. But I loved called force of change, and they were like, you know, they worship stripe. And I was like, you're doing it well, guys like, you just nailed it. And I remember we were bored. We were driving from Anaheim to, like, pasadena or something, and we, you know, like, people don't tell you, but when you're on tour, most of the time, you're just killing time. It's not a glamorous lifestyle. It's like a lot of times in diners and parking lots. And so we had to kill some time. And so we went to a thrift store, and for whatever reason, I actually don't know why, I went back to the bookshelf. And as I said, I wasn't really reading anything. And I saw a little black book called brighter than a Thousand suns, and I was really intrigued by the title. And so I just picked it up, and it was written in, like, 1956 by a german guy. And it had a quote on the COVID from Bertrand Russell, who was a philosopher that I had come in contact with. And it's basically him saying it's one of the most interesting books he's ever read. It was about the Manhattan project and the making of the atomic bomb. And I don't know why I bought it, but I sat in the back of the van. I just read this thing. And as I read about the 130,000 people who came together really with the intention of saving the world, because not everybody knew fully what they were building there, but a lot of people did. And the ones who knew, knew that they were already behind in the race to build this, a weapon. And had the Germans done this first, the world would not be what we know it as today. And I think it changed my perspective in some ways and softened my view of government because when I started reading books, first of all, it was just a fascinating book. So I started reading all these books about war and conflict because of that. And as I started to read about the situation in Darfur or Congo or a lot of the latin american civil wars and the sort of mass violence that comes along with that, I started to appreciate the role of government as a stabilizing force and to not just look at it critically in the sort of punk lens that I had always had. But to say, like, you know, it is objectively a bad thing when you have over a million people who are killed in deferred and sexual violence everywhere and just carnage like. And to be able to play any role in stopping that sort of thing was interesting to me. And so that's, that's really why I flipped the switch and went back.
And then when I was in there, I, that's when I came to really fully appreciate the role of government. And it doesn't mean I still don't carry many of the same critiques that I had as a kid. But I did sort of develop a profound appreciation for what governments can do when they do it right.
[00:20:34] Speaker B: There was in kind of like the nineties or early two thousands, a real push of like, why would, in the punk scene, it was like, why would he even be involved in voting? Or why would he be involved in any of these things? Because it's all just bullshit. It's all just like, there is no party. It's all just like crazy people trying to have power first. Do you remember that? Like, you know, when people are like, why would you even bother voting?
So once you had this kind of, like, revelation. And you read this book that was like a total inflection point for you, and then you actually end up working for the government. What are your thoughts on that? Like, as someone who's been professionally engaged with that, how involved should people be in politics?
[00:21:14] Speaker A: Yeah, 100%. So it's funny. Cause I know this is a theme that comes up sometimes in a different lens, where you talk about working from inside a corporation and things like that. And, you know, some of the challenges you might have, like you had a reinsurance executive on, I can't remember his name, but that guy, I love that episode, and I loved it because of the way that he communicated. Yeah.
But anyway, so I think sort of as I reflect on, you know, is it better to operate from the inside or the outside? I would say absolutely, 100%. You need people on the inside who have some sort of strong moral compass and some foundation that, similar to what we've experienced, which is not just to sort of, as I said before, be oppositional, defiant, and questioning and scrutinizing every potential government decision, but somebody who sort of brings a humanity in a depth where it's like, I genuinely care about people, and I genuinely am looking out for the best interests of innocent people. And I will tell you, what I found on the inside was not some conspiratorial order that I suspected maybe when I was younger and more punk, but I found a bunch of well intentioned people who were really uniquely trying to help save lives and help reduce suffering. And the appreciation that I developed was operating within a highly complex political system. It's like, okay, this, what I thought was an ideological challenge where maybe people were sort of having moral issues was actually a systemic challenge where it's like, oh, this is about the appropriations of, you know, of this agency, or this is about the legislation that limits our ability to engage in these contexts, or this is about our relationship with this country. And if we dial it up too much on this one, we might create an unstable environment over here. And so it really gave me an appreciation for the complexity. Not to say that, you know, we haven't done atrocious things or really terrible things as a government. We have. We have many of failings, as any country does. But what I saw was people who were trying to do differently.
And so it was inspiring in that regard.
[00:23:37] Speaker B: So what kind of, to the degree you can talk about it, what kind of work were you doing while you were in those. In that position?
[00:23:45] Speaker A: Yeah. So my actual job is like, I didn't go to any of these countries you know, like, I worked on a program that was called the Global Security Contingency Fund, and this was an experiment from Hillary Clinton, who was secretary of state at the time, and Robert Gateshead. They basically said, you know, what would happen? Like, whenever something bad happens, like, let's say the Haiti earthquake in 2010, you have a massive humanitarian situation. Typically what happens is State Department activates, United States Agency for International Development activates, and DoD, the Defense Department, they activate, and they all go in independently. So DoD will be like, hey, we're going to send down 700,000 mres, meals ready to eat, and they'll drop them on an airstrip, and then State Department will be there and they'll say, what are we doing with these guys? And they're like, I don't know. We figured people would be hungry. And then state's like, well, how are you going to distribute them? And DoD is like, not our thing, you know? And so it's like the coordination was a little stilted. So the idea was like, could you create a fund where you actually jointly plan these interventions, fund these interventions, and then, like, execute them together with State Department and Defense Department operating in tandem. So when I joined the government, you know, that program was getting started and they were, like, looking for people to step in and play that role. So my actual function was we would be kind of looking at what's happening around the world. And then, like, you know, as I mentioned when, you know, Muammar Gaddafi was killed in Libya, that was the situation that was unstable. And they thought, okay, this might be a good scenario for this program to say, hey, Defense Department, what do you think we should do? State Department, what do you think you should do? Come together, get a plan, take it to Congress, get it approved, and then execute. And we did that in other contexts, like when Boko Haram in Nigeria kidnapped 250 schoolgirls. It was like, okay, let's come together. Let's think about how are we going to counter Boko Haram and Chad? Cameroon, Nigeria, in the Philippines, there were some issues with the Tamil Tigers and terrorist groups. So it's like, how could we sort of get at that? And then the last one I worked was when Russia invaded Crimea. And that was, you know, at the time, such an egregious and provocative act. And it was like, how could we sort of stabilize that situation without, you know, causing World War three? And. And so obviously, these decisions, many have been, all of them were above my pay grade. If you want to know my actual job. It would be like the guy who writes the memo to say, okay, here's the situation. We need to get a response. And then you can be in the meeting where you've got, like, the country team, you got some special operators, you got, like, USAID over here. And everybody's kind of saying, like, here's what I think we should do. And then a guy like me puts it all in a spreadsheet, and it's like, okay, we're going to deliver these materials to these individuals and creates a congressional sort of package so that they can review it and say, yeah, looks good. And then they approve it, and then we're given authority to go run. So, in some ways, it was kind of getting everybody together, helping to just move the process along, make sure we had a plan, and then working the paper side of it, which was pretty intentional and very laborious process where it's like printing memos, putting them in folders, giving them to all the principals within the departments, having them sign off, and then, like, taking it to the next one, but a good learning experience just.
[00:27:22] Speaker B: As, like, an interest point. Like, we're just. We're at such a totally insane time in the world right now, and it feels just like. It feels like, what could I possibly do to make a difference in the world? So you're talking about the stuff that's just like, whoa, that's pretty amazing.
If the average person. Now, of course, you know, I'm canadian, so I can't speak for us politics, but if the average person is like, what power do I actually have to change anything in the world? What would your response be to that based on your experiences within the government?
[00:27:58] Speaker A: Yeah, man. I mean, it's. I still. In some ways, I'm even more attuned to the sort of gravity and the. So just, like, feeling overwhelmed in the face of all these challenges. So, you know, full empathy and respect to anybody who feels right now, like, I don't know how I can do anything to make this. This world a better place. And probably, as the years have gone on, my version of that is localized in a lot of ways. You know, I think when I was coming up, I had the audacity to think that I could influence sort of big, big issues, you know, and, like, and drive global change. As I've gotten older, I've come to appreciate the ability to really shape the world around you and the people around you. And, you know, I think about, like, if I lived a life where, you know, it's interesting and I don't want to divert us too much, but the company I work for now is called Markel Group. And it was really, it's got a beautiful story in a way that you wouldn't necessarily expect some punk guy to say, but it, it is just a tremendous immigrant story. 1930, guy who comes over from Russia to New Jersey, moves down to Norfolk, and he, you know, sees a situation where he's like, you know, there was, there was a particular need that he could help fill. And what was interesting is like, you know, he made this company, and it originally started in a type of insurance that I won't sort of, you know, belabor the audience with, but it's, it's called specialty insurance. It's not unlike the reinsurance that your previous guest had done or worked with.
But the idea and the philosophy that he built this company from was on the basis of any person, whoever comes into contact with the company that he started would be better off for having done so. That was his dream. And it was like, if you're an employee, I want your life to be better because you worked here. If you're a shareholder or an owner of this company, I want your life to be better because you were part of this thing. And same if you were a customer. And I've come to really appreciate that it's just a version of the golden rule. But for me, the most important thing that I can do now is operate locally on that basis. And so it's like each interaction that I approach, I really do try and say, how can I approach this in such a way that this person is better off for having at least interacted? And is there something I can do to help their journey? And so I think most of my time now is spent in that kind of localized context. And then, of course, you know, I can't shed the sort of bigger picture. You know, I think veganism, you can vote with your pocketbook and your diet in a way that is powerful, and if nothing else is powerful for you and your family? And so, of course, you know, I'm going to have to drop that plug.
And on the animal rightside, which I know is the friendly audience here likely, but it is an important thing that I think folks could do is to, for themselves and their own health, but also the environment and animals is to consider a plant based diet or at least reduce their meat and dairy consumption.
[00:31:06] Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you.
That's it. Exactly my perspective.
So, Monica, my wife and I talk about this a lot about this, like, how crazy the world is and how it's almost like we just kind of want to just be like, we don't want to take a look at it. And one of the ways that I've kind of been reframing it for myself is like, the most important thing that I can do right now is start small and expand out. And so for me, it's like I got to have the right kind of relationship with myself. So it's like, hold myself, hold up a mirror to myself. Like, really, like, be honest with myself about what I'm doing, if I'm operating from the right place, if I'm acting the right way. Take care of myself from a diet perspective, like, just eating healthy, take care of myself from an exercise perspective, take care of myself from a mental health perspective. Really focus on holding the mirror to myself and being the best version of me I can be. And then I expand out from that to being the best husband I can be to my wife. I love my wife. She's the coolest. We work together. We spend every day together. My main focus is her. And take, expand out from that. My next focus is our kids and being like, a great present dad and stepdad. Like, just being really focused and being there. Take a step out from that. It's about taking care of my mom and dad, Monica's mom and dad, our extended family, my sister, all of that. Take a step out from that. It's about being a good employer, like, being a really, really solid employer. Like making sure everyone in the company has good work. They feel secure in their jobs, they're getting the right kind of feedback. Take a step out from that. Then it's about being a good coach and a good, like, actually good at what I do. And then I just keep expanding out from that. I'm not going to be perfect at all those things on any given day, but I'm going to do my best to start again with right relationship with myself, right relationship with my wife, kids. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And the more like that. I used to be, like, really expansive and think about, like, you know, punk and hardcore. It's like, you know, a million people. I'm like, always, like, taking care of all these relationships. And then I had this professional career that I was like, you know, as a therapist, I was, like, working out and doing all this stuff.
The last thing I did was focus on the relationship with myself. And that led me to, like, the darkest place in my life. And really, when I went from this inverted scale of, like, start with yourself and then out, I'm the happiest I've ever been. Best relationship I've ever been most productive I've ever been able to take care of my family the best way. And that, for me, is how I've been focusing on creating. Like, how do I make real change in the world is like, start with your relationship with yourself. And that. That's just. Maybe it's, like, my age, but that's where I'm focused on now.
[00:33:43] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, it's interesting if you think about. I love that, by the way. That's incredible. But if you think about the, you know, if I. Some of the most destructive characters in world history, and you look at the impact of their upbringing on the psychology that they brought to bear that caused them to actually become those atrocious, terrible, you know, people. It's like, maybe the most important anybody could do who has a child is to. Is to give them love and care and so that they don't have the sort of trauma that creates these monsters that have been such destructive forces throughout humanity. And it's not, you know, like a strategy or, you know, something that you're going to, you know, advocate on a political basis. But to have that sort of ethos, I really think it's powerful.
[00:34:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. You know, that idea of kind of focusing on what you can control. And I listen, there's so many different versions of how people want to live their lives, and I like how systems work. You know, if I just go to, like, the business set that I run tomorrow, somebody could come in and be like, hey, Ram, here's this humongous contract. And we've been talking about bringing your company in for the past two years, and now we have the right time, but in the meantime, I have zero knowledge of that. Or I could have the inverse happen where we've had this client for a long time. That's, like, a huge piece of our ability to do stuff. And they could come back and be like, hey, you know what? We're having, like, terrible business headwinds. We have to cut all external contracts, and then I'm going to have to deal with that. There's so much stuff that is just wickedly outside of our control. And my theory of, like, kind of why I've switched, how I. How I kind of. The way that I try and impact the world is starting with myself is, like, the most profound thing I can do in the morning is get up, look at myself in the mirror, and just be like, I got to be honest with myself throughout the day and listen, like, you know, yesterday I was, like, acting like an idiot. Like, I had this, like, business challenge. And I was like, throw this huge baby fit about it. I'm like, but at least, yeah, I could kind of get my hands around it. And, like, I. At least I was only throwing a baby fit, like, to my most inner circle instead of, like, being, like, a huge baby fit. So you're gonna have, you know, you're gonna have strikes and gutters with it. But that is the way that I'm really focusing on trying to create impact to start with me and then, like, expand out.
[00:36:06] Speaker A: Yep. Yep. I think that makes sense.
[00:36:09] Speaker B: While you're working at the state department, that's when you started writing. So tell us about that. Like, what led to that?
[00:36:16] Speaker A: Yeah. So, basically, what happened is, as I said, a lot of my job when I was at the Pentagon was to write these memos, which would distill down a really complex situation. And it might be one to three pages, and it's, like, two paragraphs to describe the situation, you know, that happened in whatever country. And then you can put through, like, three options you might throw in there, and then you make a recommendation on the bottom. And I actually always joke with people, and it's not a joke in some ways, but the Pentagon was the best writing workshop I could have ever encountered, because the sort of, like, discipline in terms of the clarity of thought and logic that you had to have to be able to distill down the essence of really complex situations onto a page or three pages was hard. And it helped me sort of learn how to write. And I. And because I was doing it so frequently, which I think is the only way you can ever learn how to write, I thought I got pretty good at it. And so I started to wonder what would happen if I took these skills and applied them in a more creative context. Because I wasn't playing music anymore, and I really wanted an outlet. And so I started writing nonfiction stories, and I started a blog that I didn't tell the government. It was an anonymous blog that I called the American Bureaucrat. And the idea was that I was just, like, nameless, faceless bureaucrat. And I sort of formatted my blog so that they all look like White House memos. And then I would write my little stories on the memos, and it would be silly stuff.
I told the story of why, and this is maybe too close to my punk cardinal, why converse all stars have Chuck Taylor's signature on the side. It's like, everybody thinks he was one of the earliest endorsed basketball players, but actually what he was was a huckster who became the best salesman that company had ever seen. And when he retired, they attributed him by putting a signature on the side of those shoes because he is single handedly the reason that anybody cares about Congress. So it's like, tell those stories. Or, like my friend who hired an impersonator to go to his ten year high school reunion. And the comedy of airs that transpired after that happened. And so I did those, and then, um, and then enough of them caught on. Enough. And I think because I came up and punk, my natural instinct was like, yo, make it into a book. And. And so I did and then put it out. And that really, that, that changed my life because it, you know, that's when I became a writer in a way that, you know, the fulfillment I find in writing is. It's probably equal to what I found in punk music. And I'm so grateful to have, you know, and found that randomly in my life.
[00:38:57] Speaker B: Tell us about, like, how you built an audience, because, you know, just actually, before I get to that, did you say you had a friend who hired an impersonator to go to his high school reunion?
[00:39:07] Speaker A: True, true story. Yeah, he wasn't very popular, and I stopped saying his name because now he's got a fancy job, and he was like, dude, you got to, like, cut that out. And I was like, fine, but his first name is Matt. Also, he's from the Midwest, kind of, you know, like, punk hardcore kid, kind of nerdy in high school. And he lived, you know, in California at the time. And so his childhood friends were like, yo, you coming back for the reunion? And he was like, there's no scenario where I'm going to come back to my Podunk little town for that reunion to, like, hang out with people who didn't like me. But that got him going. He was like, wait a minute, there's an opportunity. So he put out a Craigslist ad, and he said, like, seeking impersonator to go to high school, ten year reunion. And actually got a good amount of interest. And he got some it guy who was, like, trained in theater and was like, yeah, man, I'd love to do it. And so he was like, all right. He's like, I'll pay for your gas money. The only rules are, like, you have to document the experience so I can, like, know what happened. And he gave him the full dossier to say, like, here are the five people who would know. It's not me that you need to engage to make sure they don't blow your cover.
And then the dude just sent him a text message and was like, I'm going in. And then all of a sudden, it's radio silent. And my friend Matt was like, oh, God, what if he does something really bad? Am I liable? And then all of a sudden, his friends, like, just like a cascade, or like, you, genius. I can't believe what you've done here. And apparently the guy, like, lived it full on. Like, first thing he did, he went to the, to the sort of, like, name tag area to check in. He was like, I can't, I can't say it, but he basically said a version of his name that wasn't his name. And, and they were like, yeah, there's nobody here. By that, did you mean this name? He's like, oh, yeah, that used to be my name. I changed it when I went into porn. And then it was, like, one situation.
And, like, matt had told him, like, hey, this guy is, like, the really conservative minister. This guy, you know? So he knew some of the characters. So he, like, went up to the minister and was like, hey, man, like, do you know where I could find any coke? And it was just, like, an absurd, like, you know, Andy Kaufman esque joke and right on brand for my friend. Like, his, his brand of humor has always been on, on that fringe, but it was incredible. And the pictures which I put on the blog, which I broke, it's the only time I broke format and actually put pictures on because there's pictures of this guy at first where he's, like, taking selfies with really, like, skeptical people. But by the end of the night, that guy was, like, center of the party. And, like, everyone's like, you know, looking to him like he's a hero. So it was, it was a well played tactic.
[00:42:02] Speaker B: Well, I'd imagine with the impersonator, he had, like, a sense of freedom because he's like, I have no history or future with any of these people. I'm just, and I'm playing a character. I'm just going to go for it. Like, there is no, there is nothing to risk nor anything. Like, there's only things to win as a result, even if you have, like, a bad.
[00:42:19] Speaker A: Yeah, you're right.
[00:42:20] Speaker B: Yeah, that is, that is totally hilarious. Your friend is a hero. I tell him if they ever wants to come on the podcast, he's more than welcome, but he has to tell that story.
[00:42:28] Speaker A: All right, yeah, fair.
[00:42:30] Speaker B: The question I was going to ask you is building an audience. So, like, growing up playing in bands and the idea of, like, building an audience, it's like, you're not even thinking about it. It's like, hey, I want to play a show, or I want to write a demo, or I want to put out a record. I want to go on tour. It's kind of like you dismiss from the idea because in punk and hardcore, everything's already built in. Like, there's already a community, there's already a scene. There's already people who will pass around a demo, just like you're saying from your friend who's booking shows in your small town.
So when you get into a world that's outside of that and you have to cultivate an audience, it's a very, very different thing. So it's like building a business, being a writer or any of those things. So how did you actually create an audience for what you did? Like, how did you find people via your blog or how they find you? But then eventually, how did you sell a book and have an audience? Who would want to purchase a book, Neil?
[00:43:24] Speaker A: Yeah, that. I mean, it's. It's. I've learned so much about this now. I probably would have pushed it somewhat differently, but I think in some ways, I approached it just like I was in a band. A band. And I started like, okay, you know, like, here comes a record. Like, I better start talking about it. And, you know, at that time, social media kind of come into play. And that does help significantly because what it does is like, you know, I walked a winding road in life, but throughout that journey, I've sort of picked up connections and maintained those. And so I figured, like, the only hope I have of putting something like this out is if I go to my network. As weird as it is to have people from, you know, who are math professors, who are government employees, who are punk people, like, go to all them and say, like, hey, I'm doing this thing. I really believe in it. Like, would you give it a shot? And then, you know, I've always been a long believer of, like, the best way to build an audience is, you know, to be so good, as Steve Martin said, that they can't ignore you. And so my goal was to write something compelling enough that people would want to share. And it worked, you know, as good as could. It's, like, not major, you know, bestseller stuff here. But it was, like, for me, it exceeded my expectations to just be able to say, hey, I've amassed a sort of eclectic mix of relationships along the way. And so I started with them, and then, you know, I leveraged social media and things like that as I went. And now for me, professionally, it's a weird sort of, like, I live between two worlds where one is, like, it's almost like the art side of my personality, which would be more like, reflected on my personal connections and, you know, in social media terms, that would be something like Instagram. And then I have, like, the mind side of my experience, which is a little bit more intellectual and professional, and that would be on LinkedIn. So I toggle these two worlds where it's like, the way I communicate and build a network on LinkedIn is subtly different than I do with, like, my artistic friends. And it's something I've been working on, which is, like, you know, what does it look like to not have to live two different lifestyles and, like, have your creative work sort of be presented in the same way in those both channels? So probably a little inside baseball, but, yeah, I think consistency in leveraging relationships from along the way.
[00:45:50] Speaker B: So how does someone gauge success for, like, a writing project from your perspective? And I'm just going to give you, like, a backdrop to contrast to. So let's say, like, a small band, they press a seven inch and they've got 500 copies, and success for them is selling 500 copies of and maybe getting on a bigger record label or getting bigger shows or getting on, like, you know, like, get going to get on tour. So there's, like, kind of clear indicators that you've done. You've done some level of success and you can kind of scale up, put up, sell more records, get on bigger tours, start, like, selling out shows, all that. So you can scale it up. Or if you think of, like, a corporate world or in, like, not even corporate world, any work world, it's like, you get a job, you are considered to be good at your job, you get a promotion, you start getting more money, you get to be involved in different things. Seems like writing is, like, pretty tough because, like, there's not a direct interaction with the audience. You know, like, you put a book out and then you're not, like, you're not reading your book in front of, like, five to 600 people every single night for, like, a six week tour or anything. And like, yeah, nobody's, like, giving you a promotion. So how does someone gauge success as a writer?
[00:46:54] Speaker A: Man, I'll tell you, it's statistically bleak. You know, it's like the commercial potential of a punk band is low. I want to say the commercial potential of a writer might be lower.
It would be very difficult to be a successful writer intentionally. And so I think success, for me, the only way I've ever been able to define. It is probably more in Rick Rubin terms, which would be something where it's like, you create something that you want to offer to the world and something that you just had to create. And it's like, you know, Reina Maria, not the band, but the poet, had said something to the effect of, like, unless you can't live without writing the thing you want to create, don't bother. And so it's like, really should feel like just something you have to express or something you have to say if you're able to do that. That, to me, is as close to success in terms of, like, obviously, you still live in a practical world. So then it's like, what does it mean to be successful and to progress as a writer? Man, I tell you, it's like, it probably would be easiest quantified by either book sales or audience size. And if I was really trying to be a professional writer, I would get a substack, and I would just monitor the subscription size, and I would look for a particular growth rate in there. And then as long as I was meeting that, I would know that I'm sort of commercially reaching success. But I think my instinct has always been to go to a place that's closer to the heart, where it's just like, this is something I have to say, and I want to give it a go. And so I think because I wasn't trained as a writer officially, that's where I've always tended.
[00:48:38] Speaker B: There seems to be. And so the reason I'm asking is there seems to be, like, a big gulf. So let's go back to a punk bandaid. You put out a demo.
You sell the demo to people, literally, like, you're actually selling it to them. And then when you're at a show, you're getting a reaction, even if people are just watching it. So, like, if you're playing in a band, there's, like, a feedback loop, because it's, like, such a live, interactive thing. Or if you're a comedian, you know, it's like it's a live interact. You're writing these jokes, but you're actually going out and doing them with. As a writer, it's like you put this book out, but you're not sitting beside someone as they read the book and have a reaction to it, and then, like, having a book review with them, right? And there seems to be this gulf between someone who's just proud of themselves and feels good for, like, hey, I've written a poem, or I wrote a short story or I completed a book, like, the sense of accomplishment. There's a gulf between that and someone who's a professional writer who can say, actually, I've sold this many books when I go out and I can go and do speaking tours. And that gulf seems to be people who are just creating and putting it out into a world where they have no idea how people are interacting. So how do you, how does, like, how does one keep going and keep honing their craft with that limited, if at all, feedback and interaction from a potential audience?
[00:49:52] Speaker A: I think you can create that, those feedback loops. And so professional writers do this typically with, like, like I say, a blog or a sub stack or whatever, because they can put out, and some people use Twitter, some, you know, other channels where they, they actually put out ideas and are socializing and workshopping them without people knowing it. So, like, somebody like Seth Godin or even Gladwell does this sometimes where they'll, they'll sort of put out, you know, a version of a story and see how it goes, see what feedback comes in, refine and, you know, like, over the course of a series of posts, actually make a book. There's a guy who's on the board of the company I work for now. His name is Morgan Housel. He came out of college and kind of, you know, tripped his way into being a financial writer for, you know, a website called Motley fool, which does a lot of, like, you know, like, sock analysis, that sort of thing. And then he went on to write it, the Wall Street Journal. And so naturally, when you rise to that level, he got a publishing deal. And they were like, hey, we really think, you know, you have a unique voice. And he had sort of, you want to talk about feedback. Like, every week he's doing a, you know, a column or an essay. So he's getting so much feedback. And so, like, they're like, we think you should write a book about, like, personal finance. He's like, great. So he gets a book deal, he sits down and he's like, okay, I've only ever written essays in my life. Now I'm going to write a book. And he's like, chapter one. And then writes chapter one. Chapter two sends it out to his friends and they're like, yeah, man, this is not, not good. And so he's like, ah, I don't know how to write a book. And so he went back to his publisher and he was like, hey, guys, like, I don't think I can write the book. You know, like, the best thing I can do is take some of my, like, greatest, you know, essays that I wrote for journal or whatever, and we'll put them together and, you know, and then we'll call it psychology of money. And they were like, man, it's not really, you know, what we bargained for, but okay, fine. And so they're like, he's like, how many copies are we going to print? And they're like, 5000. He's like, ooh, I don't know. You know, 5000 is a lot of books. I don't know if we're going to sell them. So anyway, they print 5000 on the first run, and that thing just, like, popped off and sold out immediately. And now he's over. He just reached over 5 million copies, one of the most successful nonfiction books written in the last ten years. And it's sort of like, I just saw him today, actually. He's in town here in Richmond, and he was just like, you know, like, when he reflects on that, he's like, look, I had a, you know, like, my, my sort of machine was tuned. I knew, like, from writing over and over and all the feedback I was getting, what people actually wanted and what kind of, like, material I was best suited to present. So I think in that case, that's a good illustration of what you're talking about, which is if you can't create feedback loops that are shorter than book cycles, it's probably the best way. And I think the only two way I've seen it is blogs or to actually get out there and do speaking engagements, which obviously you do plenty of. But that helps to socialize content, too.
[00:53:07] Speaker B: It's interesting, that idea of socializing content and just kind of refining it. So one of the things I talk about sometimes is, like, how insane the idea of stand up comedy is, is that people have a joke that, that they're, they're trying to work it out. But the way they work it out is live in front of an audience that is critiquing you as you're doing it and are, like, commenting and booing and, like, whatever it is. And that basically, whatever end state of joke is, is through hours of iteration of, like, doing it live, trying things, seeing it works in front of a group of people who very often have been drinking alcohol. So it's like that to me, is like the most live fire way of, like, a creative process and, like, huge respect to stand up, stand up comedians. I can't imagine the, the ability to handle negative reactions from people and how you can put that in play while owning a craft. So, like, doing it on something like a sub stack or socializing content that way, seeing what plays, it's like, it's a, that's a version of it, but it's like a, a less insane version of it.
[00:54:09] Speaker A: Yeah. And I just, you know, it's like, I went down last week, I went to Columbia because one of my favorite writers, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, is from there, and I wanted to see some of the places that he wrote his books. And I was reading his autobiography when I was down there just because, you know, it's like, when you're in the place, it's a lot more powerful to read the words that were written there. And he talks exactly about this, which he was given advice at a very young age, which he had sent, like, a chapter of a new novel to an old writer. And the guy wrote back with his feedback, and then he said, and by the way, one more thing. Never, ever, ever send your draft to any person until you think it's done, because it'll, you know, collapse and ruin the process. Which to me, I have full empathy. And I'm like, yes, I won't do that, but I can't imagine being a comedian, being like, let's give it a run. You know, like, see how it works in front of 200 people. But, yeah, respect in terms of storytellers, comedians are, you know, sort of upper rung of the high echelon of the form man.
[00:55:11] Speaker B: Absolutely. All right, so let's talk about your entry then, into the, you know, the corporate world. I guess we'll call it, like, after you left the partner department of Defense, but you've established yourself as a writer.
How did you get into the work that you do now? Like, what's the path that led you there?
[00:55:29] Speaker A: Yeah, so I took a job at an agency that did, I guess you could think of it more like organizational transformation. And so the idea was that they would have a client who's, like, launching a new strategy or just done an acquisition and trying to integrate 600 people or doing a reorganization or some big organizational change and trying to shepherd through the human side of that journey. So if you look at the sort of common thread over the last, like, ten years of my career, that's what it's been, is basically looking at organizations that are trying to make big change and then figuring out how do we get people to understand and be motivated and to actually take that journey with those leaders and those companies. And so the tools that you bring to bear are non traditional in some ways because it's like, it's what you do, Aram, where it's like, you got to know a little psychology. You've got to understand communications and storytelling in a real way. You have to also be an operator and know how to organize a multi work stream engagement, and then the diplomacy side, finding out who are resistors here and how do I negotiate with them and build relationships, foster collaboration, all that. So it's really just looking at mobilizing humans to do things that they maybe otherwise wouldn't have wanted to or thought to do.
[00:56:57] Speaker B: Can I give you an example here from, from punk?
[00:57:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:57:02] Speaker B: I've got this friend named Bob Swift. So shout out to Bob. Have you ever met Bob before?
[00:57:07] Speaker A: No, but I know him by proxy.
[00:57:09] Speaker B: Yeah, best. Just the best person. And he's wonderful, has a wonderful family. Just a great, great human being. I ran a record label at one point. It was out of Seattle, and it was like a big focus in my life. I spent a lot of years doing this label, and Bob was one of the cast of characters who would always help with the record label, and there's no money in it for them. They'd get a copy of a record and maybe a t shirt or something, and we would all come together every single weekend, and we would pack records together or, like, put, put together records or put, or, like, send records out to get the mail, and we would. We did this for years and years. And it's not that Bob came every Saturday or Sunday, but he came a lot. And one day he said to me, he was like, dude, I don't know how you do it. I was like, what do you mean? He's like, well, you have a whole workforce here. We're all here putting together all these records. We're spending our Saturday or a Sunday. Like, we're sitting on the floor. We're uncomfortable. Like, you know, we get, like, a record or we get some donuts or we get some pizza. He's like, but we're all here. And I basically work for you for six to 8 hours almost like every weekend or every second weekend, and I leave, and I can't wait to do it again next time. He's like, how do you do that? And I was like, I hadn't really thought of it that way. I was like, why do you do it? He's like, because, man, it's the best. I'm hanging out with my friends. We're doing something. So even though I'm stuffing a record and I'm, like, putting in a poly bag, and then I'm cutting out these things, or someone over here is answering, like, angry emails from, like, Europe about where their record is. It's that we're doing something as a group of friends that we believe in. And I was like, yeah, I didn't mean to do that, but, yeah, I guess we're doing that. And then when the record like, that stayed with me forever is the idea of, it's like, even a menial task, like putting a record into a poly bag and putting an insert into that record, it's like, on the surface it's a menial thing, but if it's attached to something that has a lot more cultural relevance to you, it's not a meaningless thing.
It's an act of being part of something you believe in. I've taken that so far of just, like, there are no menial tasks. Everything is attached to, like, a greater meaning.
[00:59:27] Speaker A: Yeah, and I mean, it's Bob, shout out. Because, like, you could replace 90% of the sort of leadership development content with just that anecdote. Because I think what, what that really showcases to me, and one of the things that I always sort of tell leaders whenever we're getting ready to engage is like, hey, like, don't think that because we're within the four walls of this, you know, of this company, that all of a sudden all the human psychology and instincts have, like, gone by the wayside. Like, you need to find out, like, think about how you're motivated to do things you don't want to do or who wouldn't otherwise be an appealing task. It's like, oh, well, because it means something more than whatever that little task is. Okay. Or because I get to do it with people that I care about and feel that camaraderie. It's like, okay, well, let's figure out how to create that versus, like, you know, trying to instill some academic, like, hey, in the best interest of company or shareholder value or something that has never been an actual motivator for a human being. And so I think that's, it's really an astute observation by Bob there. So you should hire him someday if he's ever looking for work. I don't even know what Bob does now. What is, what does Bob do?
[01:00:37] Speaker B: Bob has got something good going on for himself right now. All right, so tell us specifically about your job now, because I know you said you got into this, this one company, you're introduced into that world, but tell us about what you do now and how that's connected to your roots as also from punk, but also from, like writing and all that. How, where are you now?
[01:01:00] Speaker A: Basically in similar function where it's like, on change and strategy. So within an organization where we make a lot of big moves, whether it's acquiring a new company or launching a new strategy or making some sort of reorganization or restructure entering a new geographic market, all of those things require human beings to do stuff that they wouldn't have done before. And so my job is to say, okay, well, how do we create that journey where people are clear on what they have to do, but then also motivated and equipped to take that journey?
So I work within a team of folks who basically, just like, when I was at the government, the phone rings and they're like, all right, like, we're thinking about making this move. Can you guys sort of come back to us and tell us what it would take to get these 200 or these 4000 people to sort of make that move? And so then we kind of look through and figure out, like, how do we understand where people are now? What are the sentiments around this type of move? What are the sort of vulnerabilities that we have that might actually make it difficult for this leader to make this happen and then come back and say, hey, here's what we think we need to do to bring folks along. And typically it'll have like a communication component. Because I'm a strong believer, I think over the course of all my writing, if I've come to appreciate anything, it's that the most powerful human invention is storytelling. Because if you look at sort of the thing, and this is Yuval Noah Harari, you know, who did sapiens in Homo Deus, this is his big idea, which is basically, you know, for most of human history, we were mid level primates who were subject to a whole host of issues, whether it was saber toothed tigers, cave bears, starvation, all that stuff, we were not necessarily destined to be rulers of the world in the way that humans are today. And the thing that propelled our rise was developing the ability to have language, which then gave us the ability to tell stories. And once we could tell stories, we could enable cooperation at scale. So if you look at, like, our primate cousins, they can't cooperate in groups above 150 because they have no way to, you know, tell a story and create meaning and roles and identity that would be able to facilitate that. But human beings can tell a story about a religion, a company, or anything that enables billions of people to all work towards a common task. And so, like, as far as what I do, I think when you look at that initial phase of any change we're going to make. It's like, what's the story here? And what's the story that's going to resonate and meet people where they are and actually maybe make their heartbeat a little bit so that they can have the experience that Bob had when he's packing records? You know, it may be a mundane or seemingly trivial job, but you connect it to something bigger with people they like, and it matters. So. So there's that component. And then the other piece of it is like, making sure that people, you know, there's a huge negotiation and sort of listening aspect of this, which is to understand, you know, we're such tribal creatures and hierarchical beings. We follow authority, but not necessarily authority on an.org chart. We follow authority on the basis of influential people. And with any group of humans, you can always find the small handful who are actually leading that group, whether or not they're the leaders. Because, you know, even just, you can watch, like, if you're at an event and you watch one person, he's surrounded by twelve people and holding court, and everyone's just like, enraptured and clearly, like, dominating the conversation, well, then that's an influential individual versus somebody who's standing alone and nobody's, like, even talking to them. So I always look for the influencers, engage them, get their perspective, understand where the group is, and then use that information to try and design a journey that, you know, like, it's going to get more folks to where, you know.
[01:05:01] Speaker B: They need to go very often, like, just as a joke. Like, my friends and I will be chatting, and I'll be like, hey, why don't you explain to so and so what I do? And they're like, oh, okay. And like, when my friends try to explain what I do to other people, it's like, always super. Like, they give the. First of all, they're hamming it up. They're just trying to be funny. But also, it's like, yeah, if I ask someone who's like, a degree off of what I do, what I do, the answer is always, like, totally bizarre. So how would you explain to someone who's a total layman, how would you explain what you do to them?
[01:05:38] Speaker A: You know, what do I have functionally do? But what I functionally do is facilitate people making changes that they need to make to help an organization be successful. And what does that mean, facilitate? You know, it's like, well, they have to understand what they have to do. They have to have some sense of motivation and buy in and all that. And so my entire job is around looking at a person and saying, okay, we need this group of people who are doing this now to do this now. How do we get that to happen and just making that happen? But I think if you really look at, like, what gets me going and what, like, what I love is through the process of doing this, it's like corporations and government bureaucracies can be such dehumanized things. And I think because, like, we. We strip away so much of our humanity when we enter into the professional world where it's like, we don't have conversations that are emotive or about human things. And so, like, a lot of what I do is, in the way that you tell a story as a leader, you can create the sort of vulnerability in the space for people to know that's like, oh, I can have emotions, and I can. I can tell people that I really, you know, I love them. And, you know, it's like, our CEO now is like, he. You know, he's always had these beautiful expressions. But I think what he does as a leader is what I aspire to do, too, which is to, like, to tell a story in a way where it's like, hey, man, like, I really, like, I love you guys. Like, I really appreciate you, but, like, you need to know, like I say it. I love you guys. You know, and it's, like, really weird because I. You want to create boundaries of work and not, you know, blah, blah, blah. But I think ultimately, when I'm doing this stuff, what I'm really most passionate about is injecting some humanity back into a workday where it can get pretty, you know, like, mechanical.
[01:07:35] Speaker B: Otherwise, the most ridiculous take I ever heard on what I do, it might have been.
It might have been Thomas in Richmond, actually, but I can't remember. It was something like, was an east coast friend of ours said to me, or said, oh, what does a ram do? He's secretly trying to get everyone to become youth of today fans in corporations without them knowing it. I was like, what? Like, yeah, all you do is you're basically. You're taking Ray capo lyrics, and you're putting them into talking points that you're getting other people to repeat in. In the corporate world. I was like, that's not wrong.
[01:08:18] Speaker A: And, I mean, the evidence is there. Like, if you listen to this podcast, the number of youth of the day references, like, we did our second Los Krewdos reference. Like, there was one, your reinsurance guy. But, like, yeah, youth today is like heavily site. Not just with Walter either. Let's be honest here. So, yeah, shout outs to them for their perception there.
[01:08:41] Speaker B: 100%. You know, I tell the story in the podcast a lot, and I kind of tell it like, I'm maybe making fun of the person who, who said this, but I don't mean it negatively towards them. I was talking to someone one time, and they were like, who had played in a band with Ray Capo, who, by the way, Ray Capo is not someone I know. I've interacted with him, like, one time in my life. So I have no opinion, neither here nor there, about this person. But their creative and philosophical output has been very impactful on me. So I was talking to someone one day and they're like, you know, the thing about Ray Capo is he's not really like those lyrics. He wishes he. He aspires to be like that, but he's not like that. And I was like, why are you saying this to me? Like, this is some huge shock. Like, don't most people write, like, morality tales or. Or situational things where they're talking about an issue with the idea that they wish this was the outcome or they aspire to be like that? I don't think most people write lyrics that are kind of critical of the human condition from a position of, I am already like this, and you should be like this, and maybe they do, but, like, any lyric I've ever written about being a good person is because I see something in myself I don't like, and I wish I would. I aspire to be different than that. And here's the thing. I'm aspiring to be. And so when I think of you today, I always just think of, like, these aren't reality based lyrics. These are aspirational based lyrics. And we should be thinking about aspiring to being like that.
[01:10:07] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. You know, it's funny, the.
And I think the moment you think that journey is over, you're done. You know? Like, if you ever did think you were sitting on the mountaintop, right? I mean, you're done.
Humans are too frail and. And too prone to weakness and, you know, and moments of weakness to not have it be a perpetual journey to try to align yourself with that kind of moral compass, it's like, yeah, and we all have our moments of shame and things like that, but. But anyway, I love it. The youth of the day in corporate America and corporate world bring it all day long. That's good.
[01:10:47] Speaker B: All day long. I actually do a whole thing about, like, aspirational leadership and aspirational culture. And it is based actually on that conversation I had with that person where they were critiquing Ray capo. And so it is like whoever said that to me about the idea of you're just trying to turn people into youth in a day fans, it might be true. All right, so what you do, like, you explain it, you explain it well, but what you do has a mistiness to it because, you know, helping a group of people who are doing this to shift into doing this. As you said, there's a ton of psychology in that. There is a ton of just kind of getting a read for people. There's a ton of creativity that's involved with that. When you're creating, like, how do you talk about things? What's your, you know, like, not only what's your story arc and how do you want to bring people there, but how do you handle different groups of people who are going to have different kinds of responses to things? So there is a lot of science to it, but a ton of art to it. You know, there's a lot of data gathering and all that, kind of like, creating predictability models, but a lot of just getting a feel for it, telling the right story. So tell us about your creative process. And I don't just mean in the work world. I'm also talking about your, from your writing. What is your creative process, and how do you get that creative bar can take it and then turn it into something.
[01:12:06] Speaker A: So I've actually come to appreciate, you know, even though I wasn't formally trained in it, I think at this point now, you know, over the course of it's, I don't know. I think I started writing eleven years ago, so it's not like that long by writing standards, but in the time since, I've come to appreciate it actually is in some ways formulaic, in the same way that mathematics is, where you can, you can map the shape of a story.
And there are different archetypes. In fact, there's like six archetypes that if you look at any Hollywood movie, you could reduce down to one of those six. And Kurt Vonnegut was sort of one of the ones who led the research in sort of understanding how to shape a story. And so for me, my creative process always starts with, okay, like, what is the outcome? I'm looking to advance here. And it's a little bit different when it's like a book project or things like that. But in work, it's usually pretty straightforward. And so the elements of a story are a main character. So understanding who is the main character of this story. For me, typically, if I'm doing something in a context of work, it's going to be the organization or the people who are making the change. And I think if you tell a story where somebody, the person who's hearing it is the main character, they're going to be a lot more interested in it. So establish who the main character is. Second one is, every story they have to have some big, bold ambition, something they're going after. And so you identify what that is. That's usually pretty straightforward. And then the third thing is they're going to meet some challenge. And so it's like, whether it's rocky, Cinderella, any of those, you look at that, that's really all any good story. It's like a main character trying to do something and then having some really big challenge. So my creative process is being very clear up front, who's the character? What's the goal? What's the challenge? And once you do that, then you can start to say, okay, like, now I need to tell the story, and you start writing and that sort of thing. So typically it starts there, and then that's where I go. I hope that's not too sort of mathematical, but that's really, truly where I start.
[01:14:11] Speaker B: No, that's not mathematical at all.
Are you familiar with the idea of, like, having a relationship with the muse?
[01:14:20] Speaker A: Like inspiration? Like capital m, muse? Yeah, 100%. It's funny, I just. I'm working on a new book now, and I talked about the first time that I ever felt that presence in my life, and it was in a math classroom, and I had a professor. His name was Erwin Kleinfeld. He was. He was a jewish man who immigrated over with his family during the Holocaust. And they.
And so what he would do is he would tell stories in the course of this linear algebra class. He would do a proof, and then he would turn around. He was real short, man. He would say, like, this reminds me of when my uncles went to Dachau and my father somehow negotiated their release, and then he would, like, turn around and start doing math again. I was like, what the heck? So this man, I grew to really just be fascinated by, and he's actually the reason I went and studied mathematic. And he gave me a book called a mathematician's apology, and it was written by a man named Gh Hardy, who was a british professor who was aging. And, you know, this guy was definitely, you know, a quirky fellow, and, you know, he he claims that he was like, at one point in time, I was the fifth smartest man in mathematics, and he was probably right, but that's the kind of, like, weirdo he was. But he wrote this book because he was like, he wanted people to understand that mathematics was a creative field, and he saw math and mathematicians in the same way you saw artists or poets, in the way that if you were able to devote yourself singularly to trying to solve a problem or create a proof, then over time, you would open yourself up to be sort of receptive of the muse that you talk about.
And so in reading that book, it gave me a lot more inspiration to work really hard on math because I wanted to experience these things that this guy was writing about. And so, to answer your question a long way, yes, absolutely. And I do believe that on the other end of hard work, you can open yourself up for that sort of intervention.
[01:16:24] Speaker B: Yeah, this is the reason I was asking about your creative process.
So I firmly believe, and, like, I'm not, I'm not a religious person, nor am I anti that. Like, you know, people, I have no commentary on people's belief systems in that way, but, like, I do believe in the muse, whatever that is, and the muse for whatever different. Like what you said about mathematicians, how you could consider that being the same as an artist? Yeah, like, 100%. And I feel that the artistry in all things is there for me, specifically. If I think about things like music or writing lyrics or any of that stuff, I used to try and like, hey, we're done touring, and for us to be able to go back on tour, I need to write a record or I need to write a song. And so, like, the creative process was always subservient to the idea of, like, touring and seeing the world and playing shows. So it was always about the experience out in the world rather than the creative experience. And I think my results were stilted because of that, because I always just viewed. I viewed music creation of music and lyrics and all of that as the least part of it. And the most important part was, like, the live experience and really just like, getting out and traveling or whatever, when I became more serious about, like, creating things is where I really started becoming more connected to that idea of amuse and that you have to, like, open. Open up an avenue to have that kind of relationship with it, whatever that thing is. And I do think it's a thing. I don't know, is it like a spirit of creativity in the world or whatever, whatever corny thing I'm not trying to be corny, but I'm saying there's something greater that's at play when you're in the creative space. And for me, it's about, like, I have to be disciplined when I'm trying to create something. And so, for example, if I'm trying to write a record, I have to write lyrics all the time. And it doesn't mean I start a song from word one and then end at the final word and be like, here's this perfect piece is that I'm at any given time writing a ton of different songs, and the notes section of my iPhone is packed with an idea that maybe I'll come back to a year from now or two years from now, and then I'll expand on. And I'm always writing. Like, my wife and I were just on vacation, and I'm on my phone, she's like, are you doing email or are you writing a song? I'm like, I'm writing. I'm writing lyrics. And we just got that rhythm with each other. But then when I write, to go to write music on a record, I have to write every single day. I have to set an hour aside every day. And part of that 90% of that time, it's just writing garbage or finding, like, oh, here's like, a cool, bold riff I'm going to play for a while and just kind of play with that riff or playing, you know, like, oh, I kind of want to learn how to play this, this band song or that band song, but I have to play guitar every day, and most of it is just garbage. But then the muse comes in, and I've. I've created that opening for the muse, and I had to have that interaction, and the muse will give me something, and I'll tell you, it's usually an idea that's, boom, here's the keystone to the rest of the song, and it all just comes together. But if I don't do that, if I'm not in a space where I'm kind of, like, constantly being open, having that relationship, then I'm not going to create something that's. That's great. I'm going to create. I can write a song anytime, but that song's not going to be a great song. And I'm not in a position in my life where I don't want to write anything that I don't consider great.
So if I take that and extrapolate that out to what I do professionally, it's, like, super creative because I've got really rock solid concepts. We've got all this intellectual property I've developed over the years, and my team's developed. I've got my background in psychology that I lean into a lot, but all of those things are great, but it's also the application of the moment.
How do you bring in a piece of information when you're live with someone to help kind of spark ideas? So what I do is, like, constant creative process, and I'm always trying to open up that connection to the muse. And very often, something that I end up writing about later on is something that was created in the moment. When I'm trying to figure out how to bring an idea into a client conversation, I'm like, that is actually what I should do. That's how I should talk about this. Or you know what? This idea is not as good as this idea. So it's that connection with the muse. And, like, the creative space is you've got to. You've got to create that opening so that you're always bringing your creative process to the next space. And it is a discipline.
[01:20:42] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think the consistency aspect that you're talking about is really everything, whether it's the spiritual side where it's like you're making your contributions to the muse, that they appear, or it's something more psychological.
The compounding nature of creative work is so powerful, and it's never done in these sort of marathon sessions once a week. It's a little bite sized stuff. Like Jerry Seinfeld, I find him between him and Stephen King, who wrote a book called on writing. Those two, for me, have been, ironically, they're some of the most transformative coaches in terms of writing that I've had in the process, because Jerry Seinfeld is very clear. He's like, man, your mind is a monkey. There's no version of reality where you should want to sit down and write. She's like, I write jokes every day. I hate it most times, you know, he's like, so what he does is he's like, I set a timer, and the only rule is I have to sit in the chair with no distractions and try and write for, you know, it doesn't matter if it's 30 minutes, an hour, 2 hours, and he's like, and once that timer goes off, he's like, you know what your reward is? You don't have to do it anymore. And then, like, you go and do it again. But you're right. It's like, it compounds over time that daily discipline, and that's when any. Anything important or interesting that I've ever sort of written about has come on the tail end of a long line.
[01:22:19] Speaker B: Of consistency, I'm going to throw an idea out there that's going to sound, like, totally wild, and for anyone listening is like, God, has the ram got religion? Like, no, it's not that. And again, I'm not. No commentary on religion one way or another. I guess I'm just in a time in my life where I'm just kind of reflecting more on how I do things. Like, how can I do things better? All the stuff they were talking about earlier. So I'll go back to songwriting just because it's something kind of a shared language with us of the opinion that every song that exists wanted to be written, and every song that has yet to exist wants to be written. It has been written yet. And it doesn't mean that every song that's ever been written is a good song. There's, like, garbage songs everywhere, right? And, like, different levels of how good or bad something is. And there are songs that are, like, super, super popular songs that actually aren't, arguably aren't that good of a song, versus there are a lot of songs that are, like, the most amazing song, but not that many people know about them. So even if you think of, like, in punk and hardcore, there are songs that you and I could be like, that song changed my life, or that's the most important song, but it's not known on, like, a worldwide level. Every song wants to be written. Every theory out there that could help people wants to be written. And every theory, though, that's out there that could harm people wants to be written. Everything wants to be created. And it's just that human beings are like, creation machines, and that getting into that discipline of, first of all, finding what you're interested in and what calls to you and how you interact with that news, how you get into that discipline, but also, how does your life afford you the ability to create? Because not everybody has had the opportunity to create something and then have an audience for it. Before I go any further, I just. Tell me what you think of that crazy idea.
[01:24:12] Speaker A: No, I don't think it's crazy at all. And at the risk of maybe I've been to too many yoga retreats at this stage in my life, but I'm 100% sort of open to that idea. And it's funny, because the conversation we're having now probably be significantly different than the conversation we had 15 years ago, even. But there's. There's a now. Now your listeners are really going to. We're going to lose them on this one around. But the. I can't remember who. Pope John Paul II had a beautiful letter that he wrote called letter to the artist. And it was essentially a version of, you know, what you're talking about. And, you know, this isn't a statement or endorsement of catholic faith by any stretch. It's just about the beauty of the words that he wrote, because he basically said, the highest expression of your being is to take your gifts and give them to the world. And, of course, for him, it's the way to serve God, is to take your gifts and bring them to life and share them with the world. Because what would a world be without art and music and literature? And so a lot of the themes in that letter are coming through and what you're saying. And it's like, to me, I've always been sympathetic to the idea of, like, the tragedy of the unwritten song that should have been written or the unwritten book that should have been written, especially on the basis of, you know, getting distracted by meaningless technology or whatever the world is throwing your way.
And so I do think the stakes are actually really high in a situation like this to make sure that in some ways, it's your duty to find that thing and to go for it and to create a. Because, as you said, we're creation machines, and we're our happiest when we're doing.
[01:25:55] Speaker B: That to that idea of creation.
If someone's like, oh, my gosh, I don't know, what do I create? I don't know how to paint. I don't know how to do this, do that. I think the idea of creativity is, I think there's the muse in all things. There's the art of all things. And as an example, it's like someone who is views themselves as the highest calling of being a parent and, like, building a family and creating.
Creating an amazing experience for your family and truly being in that and, like, that in itself is this thing of, like, unbelievable beauty, like, the relationship between a parent and their child and child and their parent. And, like, helping someone grow into the world. Like, this is, like, in insanely profound stuff. But the artistry in all things. And the idea of, like, the creative process isn't just about creating, like, a consumable thing, like a. Like a painting or a song or a book, that there's artistry in all things. And being in touch with the muse requires discipline and goes right back to that idea that, like, discipline.
While it might seem like this kind of, like, corny, like, alpha bro thing, like, discipline. It's like. No, like, discipline is, like, a liberatory factor. Like, the discipline of a vegan diet. Like, that's a liberatory thing. Right. And, like, I think. I think at the core of all great things is the discipline of. Is the rigor of your discipline in the creative process.
[01:27:20] Speaker A: Yeah. Did you. Did you watch that movie perfect days?
It was a japanese movie about a man who's essentially, like, a janitor in a public works, and his job is to go clean public bathrooms. And it's. I mean, it's. It's beautiful because it's like, you can make cleaning public bathrooms in art, and, like, it's the way he lives his life. Like, the way he wakes up and folds his blanket so perfectly, and, like, it's so intentional, and every. It was like. It's exactly what you're talking about, where it's like, he made art out of something that others would see as, like, a chore, and. And it's a really beautiful movie. The other thing is, I have to say, we said creation, like, 72 times, and I can't help but reference creation as crucifixion, since we're name dropping obscure nineties bandaid. And I don't know if you. If you've kept up with what. I think it's Nate the singer.
Like, what he's done since. You should have him on the podcast, by the way.
He started a company called Deep local out of Pittsburgh, and they do, like, it's, like, full.
Like, he has engineers. Like, not just, like, computer engineers, but, like, actual physical engineers. And they build a lot of experiential marketing types stuff. So they've done, like, they made Netflix and chill socks so that, like, it would monitor your body's rhythm, and if you fell asleep, it would automatically pause the Netflix. And. And they've done a bunch of, like, google stuff and things like that. Very successful company. But I took a team up there of executives because I wanted them to, like, you know, just learn from him and experience. And he gave me a creations crucifixion record, and, like, the CFO was like, oh, let me see the record. And was reading the song titles, I was like, okay, all right, I'm not sure I'm ready for this. But anyway, shout out to that guy, because he's made it. He's made an incredible business.
And, you know, it's probably the last person you would have expected to do it, but he did it.
[01:29:22] Speaker B: Well, yeah, man. Like, there's so many.
You heard me in the intro. I was kind of laughing about. We're always laughing how we're saying this is nothing. A podcast about, like, punks who end up going into the business world and, like, kind of their professional path. It's a. It's a professional podcast that also happens to have punks. But God damn, the stories of the punks and what they've gone on to do is so cool. Like, listen.
[01:29:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:29:48] Speaker B: If someone who started a band when they're 20 is able to still be doing that band at 50 and making a good living, that's a super cool story, and there's no shine off that. But that story has been told a bazillion times, right? Like, how sick is it that rancid is still a band? Hell, yeah. They're still a great band. Like, awesome.
But the story that I don't think we. We get a chance to hear a lot is the person who played in a bunch of cool, or maybe not that cool. Like, maybe that didn't write that great records when they were 20 to 25, but took those experiences and went on to do the most insane shit that you have no idea. Like, whatever happened to so and so and so much of it is connected to what they learned in punk and hardcore and how they own those things. So I don't know, man. Like, I don't know where the podcast is going. It keeps kind of pushing us there. Maybe it's the muse being like, no, this is the call.
[01:30:36] Speaker A: Like, just gonna say, I was talking to Greg Benek one a few years back, and I was like, dude, somebody needs to write that book or make that podcast of the where are they now? Podcast. Because I love those stories of, like, random executive at McDonald's. You're like, oh, that dude was in whatever band, or that lady was in this. And, like, it's been fun, I think. You know, I know that's not your intention, but it is fun when your podcast kind of highlights some of those stories.
[01:31:03] Speaker B: Yeah, it's funny you say that right after we're done here, John White, who did open your eyes fanzine and was the original singer of brotherhood. And brotherhood is, of course, a huge band for me.
He's coming up to Vancouver, and we're going to do a podcast. And him and I were talking, he's like, yeah, your podcast is kind of like a where are they now? Podcast. And I was like, God damn it. But he's not wrong. God is.
[01:31:27] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it's true. All right, man.
[01:31:30] Speaker B: So as we're heading into the, into the kind of tail end of the conversation here, tell us about your books. Like, so what you've put out and then what you've got coming up specifically.
[01:31:44] Speaker A: Yeah. So I've done two books. One was called, the first one is called American Hearts, as I say, that was nonfiction stories about unknown figures, mostly in american history. And it was really just kind of a raw love letter to a country from a different perspective. So I was a bureaucrat at that point in time, and I was just like, yeah, I know the story of America, but I want to tell it through the eyes of these unknown characters. And so that's really what that was all about. And then the second book I did five years later in 2020, was called work Songs. And it was really built on the idea that for as long as we've had language, we've had music for the work we do, whether it's sea shanties, field songs, industrial hymns. You know, early work was really a heavily musical endeavor. And. And if you look at modern work, you know, we don't really do that anymore. And so I just kind of asked to metaphorical question, which is, what happens when you let the music die in the work you do? And it led me on a path to kind of figure out what were those songs really doing? And I think the musicologist will tell you it was never about the music. It was about the stories that they contained because they would give you a sense of identity and purpose, camaraderie. And so I used that as a loose metaphor to put in a collection of essays to basically ask the question, like, what would the songs of modern work be? And to tell stories, whether it's Miles Davis and how they created Kondo Blue or Picasso and how he invented Cubism or, you know, various characters throughout global history who really, you know, use their work to sing a song of a, you know, to stick with the metaphors. So that was those two. And then the last, like, I'm working on a book now, which is probably a little bit more personal nature.
And, you know, I'll sort of not get too far into it, not because it's classified, but because I don't want to punish your listeners with some meandering diatribe because, you know, it takes a while for these ideas to crystallize. But I'm really excited about it because I think it's, you know, as you get into midlife, you can find yourself over the course of time becoming more and more numb and feeling less. And I think part of that's the nature of getting old, because when you're young, so many things are new, and so we remember all the new experiences, and we feel them so intensely. But as you get into middle age, you know, there's a reason why people have crises and sort of feel disconnected. And so what this book is really for me is to look back on some of the most pivotal moments in my life and to just try and remember and make sure I never forget how it feels to live a life and to make sure I never lose touch with the emotion and don't become sort of a shell of who I once was. And so it's a. It's been a fun journey so far, and we'll see where. Where it ends up. It'll probably be another couple of years before it sees a live day, but I'm excited to do it. And it's one of those things, like you say, you know, I got to do it every day, and that's the only way the muse is going to visit, is if you pay the piper 100%.
[01:34:55] Speaker B: Um, all right, so, before we head into the crucial three, which I'm sure you. You know about, there are three questions. Scaling and difficulty. Uh, anything that you want to shout out. So, basically, of course, we'll put all your info in the. In the bio for the show. Anything you want to shout out, bring attention to you. Anything like that.
[01:35:12] Speaker A: No, I I'll. I'll leave it less salesy here, because I'm not. I'm not really selling anything anyway. But we'll put it in the. In the show notes, so that's perfect.
[01:35:20] Speaker B: Thank you, though, of course, any questions that you have for me before we go into the crucial three?
[01:35:26] Speaker A: Yeah. So, I know we're probably tight on time around, but, like, you know, you started this podcast with an intention, and I think early days, I remember it being referred to as a leadership podcast. If you look at that. How has that evolved over time? And, like, you know, we kind of talked about it, like, not being aware they now podcast. But, like, if you look at now, like, how do you describe it for mom and dad or for the people who are like, I don't know what the heck he's doing there. What is this podcast, like, ideally, for you?
[01:35:58] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm gonna. I'm gonna go to a Todd Jones quote when I said, hey, man, like, what's up with nails? When he first started nails, and he was just like, I just want to write songs that I actually want to listen to.
And I'd never really thought of music that way. And I know that sounds super crazy, but like, like to have not thought of that, but like, I never put myself, like, would I sit down and listen to this? Like, does this speak to what I like? You know, and what. That's what the podcast is now. I just want to talk to people that either I really like and I like talking to them or people that I don't know, but I'm super interested in what they do and, or someone who I really like and I'm super interested in what they do. Like, I want to spend, I want the 2 hours of these conversations just to like go by just like this did, where it's like I'm talking to someone that I'm just enjoying, I'm learning, I'm like, in the discussion. So it could be talking to someone who maybe what they do professionally is like, I'm really familiar with. Or it's like, you know, it's something that's going to blow my mind. But they themselves, as a person, I'm just like super, like, I love talking to them. I love being in that conversation. Or again, it's like something I'm not familiar with. I don't have my mind blown. I want to be in it. And, or it could be a combination of the two. I just want to have. I just want to have conversations that I want to go back and listen to. I'm like, hell yeah, I'll give you an example of that. I've had a bunch of realtors on here, and some of them are from the punk world. So it's like punk people who've gotten into real estate, which is like a lot of people. And yeah, there's a lot. And I love real estate, so I put love hearing about real estate, but also I just love talking to punks who got into real estate. I just. That's just a fascinating thing. But on the flip side, I had our realtor on my wife, and I was realtor guys named Paul, who's not from punk, but he's a personal friend and he's helped us like do like really great things. And I loved that conversation because the person that I genuinely love as a human being, but it's just like his take on real estate, especially in Vancouver, where it's like such a diceye thing. And it's a very, like a really difficult thing to talk about just from like a social justice perspective. So I love that discussion. So I just want to write songs that I myself would listen to. I just want to put out podcasts that I'd. That I want to listen to. And when it first started, I was like, well, I run this leadership company, and I, you know, I. It's important that I establish myself as being a legitimate voice in this. So I'm going to have conversations that demonstrate that I have, like, legitimate thoughts and ideas about it. And so really it was about, like, a legitimizer of being like, well, if I want to work with this guy, how do I get a sense of who he is beforehand? Well, he's got this podcast. I'll list some episodes. Do. I think this guy's actually got some good ideas? Great. And it's moved from that to being like, dude, I just want to be able to listen. I just want to put on a nails record and be like, hell, yeah.
[01:38:56] Speaker A: Yeah, that. I mean, that's probably more pure, and I love that. That's a really cool evolution. It shows honestly in the. In the way the podcast has progressed over time. It feels more natural, and I love it. That's awesome.
[01:39:11] Speaker B: Thanks, man. Thanks. I've also just gotten more confident, you know, like, again with the muse. It's just like, you just do it enough, you start getting better and better at it, and, like, now I know, like, 20 minutes in is like, this isn't going to where it should go, or this isn't interesting to me. Like, if I start getting bored and I'm like, nobody's going to care if I don't care. So it's. And I've gotten better at kind of, like, creating something that is interesting. All right, you ready for the crucial three?
[01:39:36] Speaker A: Let's do it.
[01:39:38] Speaker B: Okay, so what was the name of that promoter, local promoter, that exposed you all this music?
[01:39:46] Speaker A: His name's Mickey Nolan, and he grew up in the Quad cities where I'm from, on the Iowa and Illinois border, and. And now he lives in Chicago.
But, I mean, that guy, he brought unbelievable shows, you know, all the evolution bands and, like, I mean, just stuff that we were punching above our weight for a town archives to be able to get those shows. And so he. He would do that, and then he would make us tapes, and it really. There's an entire generation of people whose lives were changed by him.
So. Thanks, Mickey.
[01:40:18] Speaker B: Well, yeah, shout out, because, like, that's like one of those cool, untold stories of punk and hardcore is the people who. Maybe they don't play in the band or they play in a band that wasn't recognized, but, like, the person who makes the. The person who's kind of like the pin, the spoke for culture, and the culture that impacts so many people's lives. Like, maybe they do the fanzine, or they do the website, like, you know, the message, like, back in the day message boards. Or they do the thing that. That creates the culture around or sustains the culture. So shout out to Mickey, you've changed many people's lives, but, okay, here's the question.
How have you been that for other people in your life?
[01:41:03] Speaker A: That's. That's a really interesting question. So I would aspire to be that. And I think, you know, to the extent I ever tried to impact other people when I was playing music, it was.
It was mostly through the lyrics and.
And creating a space where it was, you know, like, it's interesting. I.
It's supposed to be the easy one, isn't first three.
[01:41:31] Speaker B: We start with the easy.
[01:41:33] Speaker A: Oh, man. Well, let me just say, I'll do a truncated version. It's just I struggle sort of owning any impact that I might have had on other people's lives. And that's not from a place of extreme humility. It's just I. You know, I just wouldn't want to say it if it weren't true. But I can tell you, you know, from my time playing in music and writing these books, I know there have been, you know, a small handful of people who've really appreciated it, because in hearing the lyrics or hearing the stories that I've written, it helps them reflect on their own story. And so, to me, that's all I really see is. Is my role with my creative work is to create stuff that helps people reflect and understand more about themselves.
[01:42:17] Speaker B: I'll go to something I say often. Almost every band is someone's favorite band.
[01:42:24] Speaker A: Yeah, we put the almost to a test there, but, yes, at least there weren't many.
But, yeah, there were some kids who. Yeah, we're still friends today. It's cool.
[01:42:39] Speaker B: Well, but, like, the idea of, like, your books and everything, it's like something could be huge scale. Like, let's say arguably, like, turnstile right now is, like, this is, like, one of the most amazing bands ever to have come from our. From our scene, who's having this huge, huge impact, and shout out to those guys, like, so happy for their success.
But then there are all the bands that know almost nobody's ever heard about, but almost every one of those bands is someone's favorite band and had a huge impact on them. And, you know, the. The idea, like, there's this band from Bellingham called Jayhawker. Bellingham, Washington, Detroit, across the border, they had this. All they did was, like a demo on a seven inch. And their demo is like, one of the greatest demos of all time. And the first song on that demo is like, I can. As I'm talking to you about it, I'm thinking about that song. It's like totally obscure band, but that's like, that demo is one of my favorite demos ever. So no matter what, no matter your creative output, if you put it out to an audience, it's going to have an impact on someone. It's going to be either small or great, but there's always an impact.
[01:43:41] Speaker A: Yeah, all that.
[01:43:44] Speaker B: All right, second question for you.
What is one life event where you fell flat in your face, where it was like a total disaster? It was like a total heartbreak. What was the hardest thing that you ever went through that created the best results for you, either personally, professionally, or both?
[01:44:05] Speaker A: Yeah, that's great. That one's easy. You know, when I was. I was married when I was relatively young. I met, fell in love with a lady when I was 20, and we got married, and then we moved to Michigan together. And then our marriage, um, ended. And it was, you know, it's just sort of thing that at the time was unbelievably tragic. And, you know, my whole world fell apart, you know, as my best friend. And I didn't realize at the time, but we were somewhat codependent in our relationship and.
And so it was the hardest thing I've ever gone through was trying to learn how to stand on my own 2ft again after that kind of fell apart. And it was complete with its a cross country road trip where I load everything I own into the car. That's when I moved to DC to work for the government, was moving away from my old life.
And so it took me probably two years to fully appreciate the depth of grief that I was feeling at the time. I wasn't even fully aware of how impacted I was.
But, my God, if that wasn't the most important thing that ever happened to me, you know, in terms of giving me the strength to be my own person and stand on my own 2ft, I didn't realize it up until that point in time, but I wasn't. And neither was she operating as a whole individual. We needed each other to be able to function. And so for her sake and for mine, we both come out better on the other side of grateful for it now. But, yeah, you got to earn that gratitude on that one.
[01:45:47] Speaker B: All right, last question. And it's a two parter, and it's the toughest of the tough. What are you working on now? Because so much of what you talk about professional careers, like, how to change, create change, and, like, even when you're working your first gig for the government, even through your writing, it's kind of this, like, transformative process.
What are you, if you hold up a mirror to yourself, what are you working on about yourself right now that you have not yet successfully really transformed? That's part one that you're still working on, on transforming.
[01:46:22] Speaker A: Okay. This one's actually easier than first one to ram, and probably because I'm writing a memoir right now. So it's like front and center. But what it is, is like if I look at my. The great struggle in my life and I'm not a unique in this has been a sort of constant need and search for love and validation.
And typically, where I get that is from external sources. So if you want to look at, like, the real motivation, why was I on stage? Why do I write books? Why did I get all those degrees? It's because I wanted people around me to look to me like I was worthy of love. And so my big struggle now is to try and exist in a place where I'm not sort of making my life decisions on the basis of what is going to get me the best feedback from others, but actually see myself as worthy of love, even if I didn't do anything else remarkable in my life. And just, you know, was like that janitor in the perfect days movie that, you know, nobody ever really thought much about then, you know, like, I. I want that sort of stability and strength to be able to say, hey, this isn't about, you know, trying to impress other people. This is about understanding that, you know, regardless of what I do from here, it's. It's okay. And so that's. That's been my big journey right now.
[01:47:48] Speaker B: All right, part two.
What have you worked on that you've been successful about yourself, that you've been successful, and it is, I not interested, and I'm still working on it. What have you said? I got to change this about myself. And you've been successful at.
[01:48:03] Speaker A: And.
[01:48:04] Speaker B: And now that's no longer a challenge for you.
[01:48:08] Speaker A: Yeah, that's. That's good. I think before I was very.
I was. I was not very careful or cautious about, like, how to take care of myself in the pursuit of any goals. And so I used to, you know, work any hours necessary and expend all energy and really deplete myself and not take care of myself at all.
I've now gotten to a place where it's like if, if I'm not sleeping properly or I'm not eating properly or I'm not having the opportunity to work out, like, none of this stuff works. And so that's one thing that I sort of made a priority and a discipline, which is you're not here to try and pull twelve hour days consistently. It's not humanly possible or really productive. So it's been good?
[01:48:56] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, man, good. Listen, you crush those questions, man.
[01:48:59] Speaker A: They.
[01:49:00] Speaker B: The first one was the only one that got you.
[01:49:02] Speaker A: I was like, yeah.
[01:49:07] Speaker B: Good for you. All right, man, listen, like, we're wrapping up anything that you want to say as we're closing off.
[01:49:12] Speaker A: No, I just. I appreciate what you do, and I appreciate the opportunity to be here. Thank you.
[01:49:17] Speaker B: Heck, yeah. Well, listen, you're the best, and I really appreciate you appreciate everything that you've done for me and for the world and for so many people that you've had such a positive impact with and everyone listening to this, like, there's an easy back and forth between Matt and I because we do have history, but, like, we don't have history. Like, we have known each other for like, 20 years and we've been, like, in constant contact. It's that shared language of kind of, of course, coming up a punk and hardcore and then kind of having a sort of similar roles in what we've done professionally.
What I'd say, though, is the big thing is that real deep appreciation to see another person who's imperfect, who's trying to be their best version of themselves, but also trying to help do good things in the world in different formats. And that could be in the government, it could be in the social services, it could be in a corporate setting. Your ability to create great impact is not solely focused on how much power or money or influence you have from a, like, a structural perspective, it can really be based on, I have a desire to do something good, and how do I start on the small scale and go from there? So with that, Matt, I think you totally rock. I really appreciate our conversation and everyone. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. My name is Aram Arslanian, and this was one step beyond. One step.
One step that.
[01:50:46] Speaker A: What?
[01:50:47] Speaker B: Beyond.
