Evangelia Livanos, Co Founder of Alternate Side

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Like, I knew it was, something was happening there and I wanted to be a part of it because nothing makes me happier than that genre. So it was just more so based on, like, if I'm going to get woken up at 02:00 in the morning because something happened, I want it to be because it's paying my bills, because it's helping me smile, or it's helping me get up in the morning, not someone else. So it was just like, God, what am I going to do? Am I going to be here forever? And I'm going to be booking fucking blights and chasing after the artist to respond to me and getting yelled at for this or that? Like, is this really going to be my life forever? And I just wanted more. And not that. The time there was poor, it was one of the best times I had and it taught me so much and I'm forever grateful. But when you love a certain something, especially in music, like, how do you live without that, I wasn't willing to. [00:00:54] Speaker B: Everyone, welcome back to the show. Today's guest is someone that has a very, very cool story that starts out from just being like, a real hard worker and is a great, great example of finding a passion early on, being willing to take a leap, start your own thing, build it up, and create something that's really cool and makes a difference to a lot of people. I think there's a lot of value that everyone can get out of it, including myself. Being an entrepreneur, I'm always looking to connect with other people and be around people who just have that vision and are willing to take the lead. Before we get to it, please subscribe to the podcast. Turn on your notifications. My name is Aram Arslanian, and this is one step beyond Ivanj, welcome to the show. [00:02:01] Speaker A: Thank you for having me. [00:02:03] Speaker B: So, for the uninitiated, for those who don't know, who are you and what. [00:02:07] Speaker A: You do, my name is Evangelia Lovanos. Everyone calls me Ivanj. And I am an artist manager. [00:02:17] Speaker B: Okay, what is an artist manager? [00:02:20] Speaker A: Oh, geez. An artist manager is someone who manages the career of a musician or a producer. We represent mostly musicians, and we help them navigate their business throughout the music industry to hopefully make the right decisions. Helping them get record deals, helping them tour, helping them with their finances, making sure they are not doing anything they shouldn't be doing. We're running their business for them. [00:02:57] Speaker B: So we've had, like, a bunch of different people on the podcast. We've had booking agents, we've had musicians, we've had people who record. So where does someone like you and your services, where does that. Where does that fit in? In, like, kind of the world of a musician or of an artist? [00:03:16] Speaker A: We're at the top, so we cast down. So it's kind of. Some artists we represent may come with a team, but typically we'll find an artist that we love, and they don't have a team, so we hire the booking agent, we hire the attorney. We help them get a record deal, and it's based on relationships, but we're kind of at the. And a business manager. We help hire a business manager, too. So we're kind of at the top looking to make sure that everyone that's on the team, we're not, like, above anyone. I'm just saying, like, we kind of start there first, and we kind of help cast the right people for the team, and we make sure that everybody's doing their job well for the artist. [00:04:03] Speaker B: It's interesting, though, because, like, I. You know, when you're saying, like, well, we're not, like, at the top, but we. We cast. But as an example, like, does a booking agent have a relationship with the artist or the booking relationship? Or does the. I know they have a relationship with them, but who do they answer to the artist? Or do they answer to someone like. [00:04:21] Speaker A: You, me, and the artist at the same time? Just like, I kind of answer to the artist as well. But typically, the booking agent has something to going on. Like, hey, there's this festival or this tour they're calling me, and then I relate to the artist and we discuss, or sometimes, if it's a important thing, we all need to discuss together as a team, we'll all get on the call. But typically, the conversation is me and the manager stands in front of the band, and we're kind of their mouthpiece to make sure that, you know, we're filtering everything to them and filtering things they don't need to know as well to them. That would stress them out. That's, you know, just not necessary. [00:05:04] Speaker B: So at what level, at a career, would an artist need a manager? [00:05:13] Speaker A: It's interesting because nowadays it seems like every artist throws up a TikTok and they have a manager. Typically, you have to have something to manage, right? Like something you can no longer do yourself. So that usually is when an artist has done maybe a tour or two on their own, and it's reacting, and fans are coming and record labels are speaking to them and they're starting to make money, and they're like, I don't know, the right move to make help. I want help. I want someone connected, or it's someone who maybe has a booking agent and they have some business happening, but they want to take it to the next level. So they hire a manager to kind of help inject a little bit of muscle in what they're doing. [00:06:02] Speaker B: When I was in university, so I live in Vancouver, BC, and I was in, I don't know, like a philosophy class or something with this dude who was the nicest, like, nicest guy. And he said, hey, you should come with me and watch my friend's band. Like, whatever the name of the band was. I'm their manager. And I was like, you're their manager? Aren't they just some local band? He's like, yeah, totally. I'm like, are you like, a big music person? He's like, not really. Why are you their manager? He's like, I don't know. They just asked me to deal with people for them, and I was like, yeah, what does a manager do? And I've never quite gotten, in general concept, have the idea, but really, what does a manager do? It. [00:06:48] Speaker A: It's so vast. I mean, it's insanely vast. It's from, you know, helping to put out a record and strategize marketing ideas and making sure if there's a label, that the label is doing everything that they need to do for the artist and that the artist is doing everything that they need to do for this release that's coming out, while making sure they're on tour at the same time, while making sure that the tour doesn't lose money and hiring the right crew for the tour and making sure that the tour is going well and the tickets are selling. We make sure that if there is a deal like a Taco Bell commercial, we handle the contract with that along with their attorney, and we speak with the attorney and talk about the best deal for the artist. If the artist is having a really hard time emotionally or mentally, we could sometimes be their big brother, sister, weird aunt, uncle, psychiatrist vibe. I have helped my an artist I've worked with for about nine years now who had a nervous breakdown, and it was on me to kind of help unravel everything that we had going on so that he could be left alone to go heal. We deal with the booking agents. We're out there talking to different opportunities to publishers, to different producers to make. We're basically making sure that there are opportunities being presented to our artists that can help them grow and that the artist isn't fucking up those opportunities in every way. It's so much. [00:08:22] Speaker B: There's a reason. When this guy in my class told me that, and I was like, what the hell does a manager do? And he didn't quite know, and I've always been interested in it. So when I used to play in punk bands when I was younger, and when people started getting managers, I was always like, what does that person do for you? I never understood it because I think it. You're saying it's so big and probably it's. Each artist probably requires a lot of the same things, but also a lot of very specific things to them. [00:08:52] Speaker A: Absolutely. Very specific. I have, you know, a pop act that requires very different things than an up and coming hardcore band or a band that I've been with for eleven years that were pretty dialed into each other. So there's, there's a lot of differences. This is monkey, by the way. [00:09:12] Speaker B: Hi, monkey. All right, so I gotta ask, how did this start for you? Like, what was the journey from, like, inception? Like, I like music to this. [00:09:22] Speaker A: Well, it's. It's very strange because I didn't even know this was a job when I started working in the music industry. I'm from Scranton, Pennsylvania, and I was friends with some guys in the area that were, like, in the hardcore scene and were just like, doing shows. They're playing shows and they worked for my dad at his diner, and, you know, they would play a show, maybe I'd sell merch for them or I'd go to the shows. And it kind of like, awakened my interest in, like, heavier music, because growing up, I was a dancer. I danced since I was four years old. So I just knew, like, what was on the radio and, like, pop, like, whatever is the music we're dancing to at the dance recital. That's all I knew. And I discovered hardcore and I got very interested in the culture around it because I felt like it was super, just awesome and inviting and inclusive. And I was like 15 at the time, or 16 at the time. I went to college, I graduated, I taught fourth grade, degree was in elementary education, and I realized that I was not meant to be in the Scranton school district. It was not the job I wanted. I had a friend that lived in Philadelphia and she ran an independent booking agency that did, like, punk bands at the time. And she was 22, 23, and I was 22, 23, and she was booking out of her basement. She had a spare bedroom available. And I knew her because she was from Wilkes Barrett and I was from Scranton. And she said, why don't you come to Philly for the weekend and see if you like it. And if you do, you know, you can have the room. So I did, and I did, and I moved to Philly. And I started helping her at the booking agency, like an intern, like, for free. And I was just doing. I mean, this was when fax machines and aim and AOL.com existed, and MapQuest, no gps and no cell phones. And so I was helping her fax contracts and getting the contracts fax back for some of these bands that she was representing, which were the emo punk bands of the era. From hot water music to Midtown, to saves the day to pretty girls, McGraves and blood brothers, and so many different artists. And some fired us because we were young, and some stayed with her for a while. So I started helping, and then eventually she let me book a couple bands. I didn't know what the fuck I was doing. I was just like, kind of. She gave me the Rolodex we'd gave me. Show me how to do a routing. I would do the routing and then email the promoters and get confirmations, book the shows and send them out on the tour. I feel very, very sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry for any artist that I was working with at that time, because I did not know what the fuck I was doing, but I was in it. And we were living in Philly at the time, and we were very social. We would go to, like, two, three shows a night. Everyone knew us. Bands would crash at our house. So we were really kind of in it at the ground level. When emo and punk was still at the VFW hall level, very towards the end of my time at this company, bands were playing, like, the trocadero type sized venues in Philly. But for the most part, like, I was going to VFW halls or the church in Philly all the time. And so I was there for years, and I wanted more. I wanted to learn more. I wanted to. I knew that. I knew that we weren't doing things correctly. How could we? She was flying by the seat of her pants, and bless her heart, she fucking figured it out. And she was doing a great job. But there was more. I wanted more. So I left there, and my roster came with me. And I went to another booking agency. And this was called Face the music touring, which doesn't exist now. And that agency has agents that now own their own multi million dollar companies, or they're at, you know, other big agencies. And it was this awesome, like, low key, small company, but they did massive metal bandst. I wasn't really, like, into metal, but okay. And so I brought my roster over that had not metal bands. Like, I had a band called the Plain White Tees. I had a lot of, like, emo, up and coming bands that were on Warped Tour. Warp tour was a big sweet spot for my roster, and I started managing a band on the side because I was their booking agent and they didn't have a record label and they needed help because as an agent, it behooves you to have a ban on a label because the label is going to spend marketing dollars so that the band gets bigger faster. Because there wasn't social media then, there wasn't tick tock. To just explode a band out of the blue. You had to just either the label spent money to help you get ads and, like Alternative press magazine and things like that, and print your vinyl and print your tapes at the time and then cds. So it was very different. So I started managing this band named Emmanuel on the side. They started getting interest from record labels. Record labels were flying us to LA and coming back and we were talking all these, you know, New York labels, major labels, and it was interesting and they were. I was like 24 at the time. Never experienced this in my life. I've never been to LA, never want and had a need to. I was living in Philly and Vagrant records flew us all to LA. This band was from Louisville and we really liked them and I signed them there. And that kind of began my journey as a manager, but I was still an agent, but I didn't want to be an agent anymore. I didn't like it. I didn't like the politics with the promoters. I didn't like how it's just very kind of not tunnel vision, but you're in charge of one thing. You're in charge of making sure that they have great shows and that's it. And that they're being strategic with their live performances. I liked that I was involved in all the creative conversations for Emanuel, so I started managing them. I was living in Philly. My booking agency got bought by a bigger booking agency and everyone was moving to New York. And I used that opportunity to kind of slowly give away my roster to other agents that I thought could do a great job. And I took a swing and I was like, I'm going to manage. I'm going to be a manager. I'm going to do this. And I started looking for jobs in New York City that would hire me as like a day to day, so I could learn and I could bring this band, Emanuel, with me, who was on the up at the time. They were this band that was on every hot tour. Every band loved this band, and they kind of got me in the door places. So I ended up getting hired at a management firm in New York that doesn't exist anymore. But it was during. One of their biggest clients was good Charlotte, and it was during the height of lifestyles of the rich and the famous. So it was, like, explosive, cool stuff was happening around me that I couldn't apply to my artists. They were this big. So, you know, I. I was there as a manager, managing a lot of the remnant artists there that the owner brought in for whatever reason, but, like, didn't want to deal with. So I wasn't really getting a taste of, like, what I thought I was going to be able to get and, like, put in my pocket and give it to the band that I was managing. So I was there for a little over a year. I had moved to Brooklyn from Philly, and then the company folded and I found myself out of work for, like, a year. And I was trying to do it on my own, and that was really challenging. And I had known of a manager named Corey Brennan, who owns five b artist Management. I've known him for a while because when I was an agent at face the music, we represented one of his clients, and one of his clients was a band called from Autumn to Ashes. But his biggest client is Slipknot. So I hit him up because I was just like, hey, are you looking for a day to day? And he was. And so he hired me. And at that time, Emmanuel had made a second record that nobody liked. They were smoking too much weed or whatever they were doing. And the sound went from, like, the screamo awesomeness that they were doing, that everyone liked, like, this bratty, bluegrassy, southern sounding guitars with just, like, sing scream. It was just the fucking best, best band. And then I made a record that was kind of deftonesy. They went with Deftones old producer in Seattle, and it just did not hit. It was not the record they should have made. But at the time, like, I didn't know you could tell an artist, like, hey, let's not do that. And it's not like the label was an r ing it and no one knew what they were going to record going in. So they were struggling for a few months and they broke up. And it was this. I was so sad, because at this point, I had been working with them for, like, four or five years. So they break up, which was a great opportunity for me to go to another company. So I got hired at this company, five b, and I was there for years, cut my teeth on working with big, you know, multi platinum type artists, you know, metal bands. It was a big corporate management firm that still exists, and they're thriving. You know, at the time, it was only, like five of us working there. Now there's, like, a whole team. And I was there for years, and I learned a lot from my old boss. And then I was realizing at the time, because, you know, music goes in trends, so when I first started managing, it was, like, emo, screamo, which was, like, the stuff that I loved. Then it turned into just screamo. Then it was, like, kind of metal stuff, and, like, the emo scene died a little bit. Shel Rakshas actually sent me a record when I was working at five b, and she said, you would love this band. You should check them out. There was a band called make do and mend, and I loved this record. And I said, wait a minute, this genre is back? Because I was so in the metal bubble that I was like, wait, this is happening. This is my favorite genre. I reached out to make do and mend. I picked them up, and I wanted to be a manager on my own, so I didn't renew my contract when it was up at five b, and I started my own management company out of the bedroom of my apartment in Astoria Queen. And I've been grinding ever since. And this was 2012, so crazy, weird journey, but booking agent gone, manager, still trying to figure it out. [00:20:32] Speaker B: That's awesome. I have so many questions. Let's go all the way back to moving to Philly, into your friend's place and joining their booking agency, and you're like, oh, you know, they showed me how to do it, basically, but I didn't really know what I was doing, and they were kind of figuring out what they were doing. But you're also, like, sending people out on jaunts that are, like, 100 miles away or 200 miles away or 300 miles away. And you were relatively young. Were you comfortable at that time already with just kind of, like, taking a leap and being like, you know what? I think I can figure this out. Or is that something that you had to just kind of, like, fake the funk and just kind of swallow your fear about it and make it happen? [00:21:15] Speaker A: I think I was fearless. I was 22. I was like, we got this easy. Now I'm the opposite, and I've been doing it for 20 years. [00:21:26] Speaker B: Well, but that's that kind of like, I think that fearlessness of youth has a lot to do with, like, not really understanding the consequences of fucking up. You know, like, now you and I, like, as adults were like, oh, my gosh, I really know what happens if I fuck up. But when you're like, 22, you're like, whatever. What could happen? [00:21:45] Speaker A: Totally. And it was just more relaxed then and it wasn't like it is now where everyone's trying to be rich and famous. It wasn't. It was this amazing vibe of musicians that just wanted to play music and be able to play it out of across the US. There wasn't. I mean, there were egos, of course, because it's. It's artistry and they're precious about their art and rightfully so, but it wasn't how it is now where everyone's, like, uploading to TikTok and trying to get their, like, 30 seconds of fame. It was very wonderful. It was such a. I think back on that time from like 2000 to about 2006 was in my opinion, the best time I ever had in music. Because just being in a VFW hall watching a band, like, saves the day, you know, this band is special. You know, this band is going to explode and so does everyone in the room and no one knows. It happened after it happened, you left and it had to be in your brain and that's it. Maybe we had a camera, maybe, I don't know. But there was no cell phones. It was just the coolest, most precious and just pure time in music. [00:22:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:55] Speaker A: So nobody was like, you fucked us up. Like, yeah, we fucked up all the time. But bands weren't like, you know, I'm gonna fire you. Like, there was no other booking agents that would do bands, not on major labels back then. We were one of the only female booking agencies that existed. It was Faita booking, which still exists. It was fierce talent, which was Corey Christopher, who's now Corey Martin, who's like one of the head of the rock new offices for Wasserman, now Stormy Shepherd. I think that might be it. Like, there was only like three entities of women doing booking at the time, so there wasn't anywhere to go. Whereas now someone can fire you and there's like a plethora of choices. It didn't exist then, so I think that's another reason why I wasn't so like, oh, my God, am I gonna fuck this up? Because the bands were fucking it up. No, the promoters were fucking it up. Nobody knew what they were doing totally. [00:23:53] Speaker B: And something I tie into that, which is like, it's just kind of tangentially connected. But at this time, where you're saying there's like, no social media, there's no cell phones, like things like YouTube, like, didn't exist, or they were, like, in very, very early stages, there also wasn't the ability to instantly transmit your fuck up to millions of people. [00:24:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:12] Speaker B: Like, something that I feel bad about for younger generations is when I was a kid, I didn't even think about half of the idiot stuff I did because at the worst case scenario, I'd fall flat on my face, but me and five people would know about it. Whereas now, if you're failing or screwing up, there's a high chance that that's going to be put out into the world and maybe 100 people or 200 people or 2 million people could know about it. And this is like, more just like a thought piece. It's like, imagine how much that will stymie people's ability to kind of just take a leap and fuck up because they know the likelihood that it will get out. [00:24:53] Speaker A: Absolutely. There's such a. I don't know how to say it better, but there's like a pillow over artists heads now where they can only do so much because they're afraid of getting canceled. They're afraid of saying the wrong thing, they're afraid of supporting the wrong thing, so they don't say anything. And then if they don't say anything, then they get, you know, witch hunted for that. It's very different now. There's a lot more at stake. Back then, it was just pure. [00:25:22] Speaker B: Yeah, it's super interesting that you just said that, because, like, most people want to be, and I don't just mean on the right side of something just to be like, quote unquote, good people. But most people care about health and happiness of themselves and other people around them and the right things happening. But also, like, my business is an example. It's like I stay totally neutral on most things. And I don't just mean online, I mean conversationally with people. I don't weigh in on stuff. I never talk politics with clients or anything like that. It's too risky, it's too dangerous. And frankly, it's not what people need for me. So I play things right up the middle and just say, I don't get into those conversations. I can't imagine being an artist right now and the pressure that comes with people wanting you to weigh in on things. And of course, also having real opinions on things where you might want to say something, but you're too afraid to. [00:26:14] Speaker A: Yes, it's very, very true. I had an artist the other day post something to her sub stack because she felt she was getting pressured to speak out about Israel. And she's a very outspoken artist when it comes to a lot of things, but she hasn't been for a couple years. She's kind of been pretty absent from online, which is where she started, and I started to help her get back online. But anyway, she was like, hey, I think I'm going to make this post on my sub stack about why I'm not speaking out about it. Are you okay with this? And she sent it to me and I read it and it was really cool. And I said, absolutely, you should post that. I think that's great, but it's like, that's what has to happen now. You can't just. You have to run it through people. You can't just, like, post shit because somebody can take it wrong and you get canceled, and then there goes all your hard work. [00:27:05] Speaker B: It's, it's super, it's a, it's a wild thing. And let's. We'll touch base on this later on the conversation because I want to hit on a couple things, but I want to go back to your story, that shift into artist management, especially when you're talking with a. Sorry. The band's name was Emmanuel. [00:27:20] Speaker A: Emmanuel? Yeah. [00:27:22] Speaker B: Like, when you were like, oh, yeah, we got flown out to LA, where I'd never been before, and now we're kind of negotiating with this company, which I've never done before, just from a space of, like, holy crap, how did you go into that and just, like, manage yourself? Because it seems like dealing with, like, I know you dealt with contracts for promoters and stuff like that, but, like, dealing with, like, record deals and all of those things. Like, how did you do that without having previously done that or having someone, like, walk you through that before? [00:27:56] Speaker A: I think I was just ignorantly fearless. And a friend of mine named Lisa Sokransky is a pretty big bulldog lawyer, and I couldn't technically negotiate the whole thing myself. You do need a legal person. So I hired Lisa, and Lisa kind of helped walk me through it and helped me kind of understand. And, like, I would ask questions to her. I probably sounded like a dumb, dumb dummy, and she would answer them back to me and kind of be like, yeah, like, because this was my first time doing it, so I was probably annoying, but she was a friend of mine and she helped me through and then she became the band's attorney, and so she was representing, like, she still does. Rancid Travis Barker. Like, she's a. She's a big. She was the in house attorney at Interscope for a while. Like, she's amazing. So luckily, I knew her because of working at Faida booking. Eva knew her, and we became friends, and she helped me with it. And from there, I was able to absorb a lot. Like, I feel like I can't remember shit now that I'm 47. But, like, when I was 25, you could tell me once, and I'm like, I got it, let's go. And I could just kind of apply it to more contracts in the future. But it's a. It's a repetition thing. Like, I was shaky on it for the first couple of years. [00:29:16] Speaker B: I think, well, as you're going through this, like, anything's going to have, and I don't even need this in, like, a negative way, but, like, anything is going to have gatekeepers, but especially things that people are, like, ultra passionate about and feel territorial about, like, music. So you're coming in, you're a young person, and you don't have a ton of background in some of the areas. Like, first into booking and then into management. How did you manage it? Well, first of all, did you encounter, and then if so, how did you manage, like, people, like, trying to shut you down or people trying to, like, dad you or, like, minimize you? Like, how did you. If you encountered that, how did you manage that? [00:29:56] Speaker A: The people we were dealing with were kind of on our same level, except for when we were dealing with the record labels and stuff. So again, like, I just. I was young and confident, and it just felt like maybe it was just me, but it just felt like we were all navigating it at the same time. We were all figuring it out. You know, like, drive thru records was. Was just popping off, and that was a first for them. You know, Vagrant had get up kids alkaline trio, like, a bunch of bands that were exploding at the time. That was a first for them. Like, everybody was kind of. I felt like everybody was figuring it out, but I did feel at times like a dumbass from Vagrant because I'm in charge. Like, I'm coming to them and I'm the manager of this band that they just signed, and they're pretty seasoned, you know? The owner was also a manager. The owner of Vagrant was a manager. He managed a lot of artists on the label. And my product manager had been there for a while, so there were times where I could tell they knew I didn't know what I was doing. And maybe we'd get into a little tiffed about it, but you just kind of get through it. Like, you just. You hang up and you feel like a dip shit, and then you realize, like, don't do that again. Don't ask that question again. Or like, it. It's just a learning by doing it. [00:31:15] Speaker B: So let's pop over to when you decided to not renew your contract and go out and do your own thing. That's a moment, right? That's like, I'm just going to bet on myself. Where did that come from? Was it something you'd been planning for a long time, or is it just something that kind of felt right in the moment and you went for it? [00:31:33] Speaker A: I really wanted to manage artists that I loved and cared about. And I just kept thinking about what my life would be like as a day to day at this company forever. Like, what am I, what am I going to do? I wanted to manage my own clients at that company, but my boss wanted me to represent, to help him with his clients, which is what he hired me for. I don't blame him. But my goals changed. I no longer wanted to serve him and his artists. I wanted to serve myself and the things that I believed in. And I knew that this genre, this genre that was coming back, this emo revival or whatever the fuck you want to call it back in like 20 10, 20 11, 20 12. Like, I knew it was. Something was happening there and I wanted to be a part of it because nothing makes me happier than that genre. So it was just more so based on, like, if I'm going to get woken up at 02:00 in the morning because something happened, I want it to be because it's paying my bills, because it's helping me smile, or it's helping me get up in the morning, not someone else. So it was just like, God, what am I going to do? Am I going to be here forever? And I'm going to be booking fucking blights and chasing after the artist to respond to me and getting yelled at for this or that? Like, is this really going to be my life forever? And I just wanted more. And not that the time there was poor, it was one of the best times I had, and it taught me so much, and I'm forever grateful. But when you love a certain something, especially in music, like, how do you live without that? I wasn't willing to. [00:33:09] Speaker B: So you start your own thing. You take your. You take a leap. What happened? [00:33:14] Speaker A: I was so poor. Oh, my God, I was so poor. It was so tough. It was probably one of the toughest times in my life as well, both, like, personally and professionally, because I had been dating somebody and we broke up, and they were kind of helping me with rent. Cause they were there a lot of the time, and then they leave, and I'm like, oh, shit, this is real. And so I thought, you know, the couple bands that I had picked up, I didn't realize how little money managers make in the beginning stages of a band's career. Like, oh, God, a band getting paid thousand bucks. Awesome. That's 15% of a $1,000. Nobody can eat on that, you know? And so. And that was lucky if they made a $1,000. So I was finding myself, like, fuck, I can't pay rent. Like, what am I going to do? I'm 36 years old, and I'm starting over, and I'm working off a laptop in my bedroom, and I'm just, like, in this new world, and I'm like, the adult in the room now. Like, all these young emo bands are coming up, and they're, like, 17 and 18, and some have managers, and I was known as, like, the manager lady. Like, do you know about that manager lady, Yvonne? And so I was just like, not okay. And I had to find gigs. Like, I picked up independent artists that had money to burn, that wanted help marketing a video or something, you know? Because at this point, I had been doing this for. I had been in the business for about ten years, so I knew a lot of people. I knew how to market a video. I knew how to do this, you know, and. And I would do it doing that. I was helping my friend's recording studio. He just built a recording studio in Jersey, and I was trying to help him get clients in there, and they were paying me, and then I would do, like, pickup gigs. Like, I remember a friend of mine ran a festival, and he's like, do you want to do radio promo? Like, I was just taking whatever jobs I could, and I was, you know, putting rent on my credit card and just. I was so poor, and I was so, like, lost. But at the same time, I'm managing these. A couple bands that I had picked up at the time that seemed it was during the Tumblr era. Tumblr was filled up with conversation about these bands, and I was just like, God, I must have to be doing something right. Like, I I know I'm onto something. I know it, but I was so poor. Like, ate Amy's pizza bites once a day, and that would have to last me for two days. Like, I couldn't afford groceries. It was so humbling to be 36. And I have friends who have been doing it and stayed, like, an agent for as long as I had been doing my thing, my journey. And so they're now heads of departments at, you know, Wasserman or William Morris or CAA. And I'm just like, hey, I can't pay my rent this month. Like, it was embarrassing, and I had to fake it. So if my artist was playing Los Angeles, I had to be there to show face and make sure people knew, like, this is my artist. Make sure my artists knew that. Like, I believed in them. And I was here, and I'm here for the important shows. I'm just charging my credit card for flights to Los Angeles, crashing on people's couches. It was so fucking hard. I just can't. I was poor, very, very poor. Twice in my life. Once in college when I first moved out, my parents cut me out financially, and the second time is when I started my own company. [00:36:53] Speaker B: It was brutal sticking with that. How did you get through it? Because I know there's like, wow. I don't know. I just got through it. But how'd you get through it? A lot of people quit. A lot of people give up. A lot of people get anxious, depressed, all sorts of things. How did you push through it to get to where you are now? [00:37:11] Speaker A: I was very depressed. You know, the breakup really killed me too. On top of being like, did I make the right decision? What the fuck did I do with my life? This guy just left me. And I'm broken hearted. And I was drinking a lot because I was just so. Just needed to comfort myself. I was living in an area that none of my friends lived in, so they didn't want to visit. They didn't want to take the train to Astoria because they lived in, like, Bushwick or whatever in Brooklyn. And I just got through it every day. I woke up every day. Every day I would sit at my desk in my office. I would work. I would talk to people on the phone. I would call my artist. I would call people for opportunities for my artist to feel something, to feel connected, to feel like I was on the right track. I had a lot of great friends in New York. Um, I knew a lot of people from doing this business, so I was able to. To reach out, be like, hey, do you know anything, you know, of anything, you know? And people wanted to help me. That's something I'm very grateful for this entire time. In this industry. I do have cheerleaders. For some reason, people want to help me and they would find a gig and they would give me a gig, you know, and I was helping my friend with his recording studio and, like, no one wanted to come. That was noteworthy because he's an unknown producer. So I put him on groupon and he couldn't keep the people out. Normal people will spend money, so put normal people in the recording studio and then you only charge them 2 hours on groupon, you can't really get much done in 2 hours, so they're gonna pay for another three. Now you're making money. But he was bummed because he really wanted, like, he wanted me to use my connections to get, like, name bands on record labels in there. But, like, that's just not a reality where, like, I, that artist is going to go with the producer with the name. They just don't do that. So I was just doing things like that, just getting through it. And then right when I was at a really low point, my friend Melissa was working for a management company in Los Angeles, and they were a UK based company, and they represented songwriters, and they also represented a lot of UK artists that came off, I think it's the tv show the Voice, and they represented Jesse J at the time, and they were the most wonderful people I've ever met. And they were opening an LA office and they wanted someone to be an office manager. So I remember her calling me. I was in my kitchen making a drink, getting ready to, like, be sad on a Wednesday and watch tv until I fall asleep with some vodka soda. Now when I think about it, I want to throw up because I don't even go near vodka now. But, you know, I was, she called me one night and she goes, hey, I have something for you. Like, I don't know if you'd ever do this. This could be beneath you, but they're looking for an office manager. Would you ever consider moving to LA and would you ever consider doing this job? And I was like, yes, I would. And because I needed, like, a side gig while I was doing this thing. Like, everyone needs that in this business. When you believe in something and it's not making money, you gotta have something that pays the bills. And I wanted something consistent so I could kind of like, do this. The management stuff on the side took a minute for it to get figured out, but this company flew me to Los Angeles. They met me and they hired me on the spot. Within a month, I was in a car with my three cats and my best friend Melissa. We drove across country and I moved to LA. And part of that move was also, like, the breakup. I didn't want to be in New York and run into this dude. And I was like, yeah, I'm gonna start over and I'm gonna move to laden. We'll see. So it, like, I had an so's at the very, at a very good time, because I don't. I'm sure it would have continued to be to get better, just like it did when I moved to LA. But I had a salary in LA, I had healthcare in LA, and I was able to do my bands simultaneously because I was managing an office that didn't have a lot of things going on because they were a UK company trying to build an LA company. So there was a lot of downtime, and so that kind of saved my life. [00:41:26] Speaker B: So what was the turning point where you could then just go full time into your own thing? [00:41:32] Speaker A: I want to say it took about three years from when I moved to LA and I had warped, or again, was a big part of our roster at the time, my roster at the time, and I. I had a band high up on the festival, the one year I had a pop punk band that was really doing well, and I had another band on Warp tour. I think just things were happening and I realized one day, like, wait a minute, I think I'm making some money off this. I'm like, I'm actually making money. I don't know if I need this gig anymore. And at the same time, that UK company folded the LA company because they just couldn't get the right people in the door to really make a company out of it. So the timing was just perfect. So they ended up letting me go because they had to let everyone go. And I started. I was forced to focus full time on my roster and I did. And then I slowly started bringing in younger managers that also had their own roster that needed some guidance because they were like, 19, but had, like, really good bandst. And that's kind of how it, it unfolded. [00:42:43] Speaker B: And so where are you at today with the business? [00:42:48] Speaker A: I have a company named alternate side. My partner Zach was my day to day manager back in 2013. I think it was 20. Yes, 2013. I hired him when he was in college. He's now 30, and he's been with me for ten years. We just celebrated our ten year work anniversary, and we have nine people that work at alternate side. I have two support staff. Zach has two support staff. We have a manager in Cleveland. We have a manager in Denver. My manager in Cleveland has two support staff as well. So we're a boutique management company. I'm based in Nashville. We do not have an office. We are remote. We have been remote since pre Covid. Like, we just. I just felt like an office is kind of a flex and a very expensive one and not necessary. And I think it. It just causes you to make decisions that I don't necessarily think you need to make if you're trying to keep the lights on for a 60 or $100,000 office a year. So that's where we are at today. We have a roster of about 30 artists, um, across, you know, nine of us, including myself, and we're still growing. Alternate side became alternate side in 2019. My company was called Synergy Artist management. That's the company I made out of my bedroom. And I had that up until 2013, and then, well, no, I had that up until 2019, when I made Zach a partner. We decided to change the name so it was ours and not mine. So we've been going ever since. [00:44:31] Speaker B: All right, this is a good time to hit on, like, how does the industry work? Like, what's the financial model? You'd said earlier, like, oh, my God, like, 15% of a $1,000. Like, I'm not going to be able to, like, eat or pay my rent. So how does it work? [00:44:46] Speaker A: The financial way of the business? So booking agents get 10%. They get 10% no matter what, unless the show doesn't play. So they get paid whether the tour loses money or not. Most managers do not. Managers take anywhere from 15% to 20%. Usually see 20% for more pop managers r and b pop stuff is a little bit in the twenties, more of the rock stuff, which is where we kind of specialize somewhat. You know, we do have some pop stuff on the roster is at 15%. And typically, if a tour plays out, you'll do all this work, the artist will do all this work, and the tour can lose money for whatever reason. You don't get paid because we're going to get the money from, like, if they have to pay their merch bill or they have to pay their crew and they have to keep sustaining. You don't get paid to record labels get a percentage of the sales from the artist. Lawyers get 5%. Business managers get 5%. Some lawyers are hourly, but most lawyers are 5% nowadays. [00:45:56] Speaker B: Robert, so how do you make it work financially, then? It sounds like because tours losing money must be a really common thing. [00:46:05] Speaker A: Yeah, especially in the beginning. And I have a lot of developing artists at this time. You have to manage the right artists and you kind of have to have, like, you have to be smart. You can't have ten developing artists, you have to have one that kind of keeps the lights on, that allows you to kind of pass the torch down to something else. And just, you have to pick up stuff that generates income that you like and stuff that, you know will generate income based on, you know, what they sound like, who their team is, who the label is, etcetera. [00:46:41] Speaker B: So is that it's the percentage that the management takes only from live shows or does it go across other things like merch and everything? [00:46:49] Speaker A: Everything, all income. Merch is different. Tor merch is different. Tor merch is of the net, everything else is of the gross. [00:47:00] Speaker B: So like the Taco Bell commercial you referenced earlier, if the band's on like a Taco Bell commercial, they get paid. A manager would get 15% of that. [00:47:07] Speaker A: Yes, correct. [00:47:08] Speaker B: So the only place that a manager would be really vulnerable would be around Tor in terms of not getting paid is that. [00:47:17] Speaker A: Yes, but when your roster entire existence is touring. [00:47:24] Speaker B: Totally. And for people who here who wouldn't or who are listening, who aren't music people, it's like, not like bands don't typically start with like a record deal and a touring and the talk about commercials. It's like a long, it's a long build. So a manager could spent a lot of time not getting paid anything by developing artists. [00:47:42] Speaker A: 100%. I have a band I've been with for eleven years. For the first, I don't know, three. I mean, they were getting paid back in the day, back in 2012, they were going to $100 a show. $100. They were touring in a Dodge Durango. How the fuck am I supposed to like. No, but they weren't even making money. But they were 17, they didn't need to make money. I was 37. But the payoff is that I've been with this band for eleven years who are bigger than they've ever been now, and that's a really amazing experience. And we're all making money now, and it's fantastic. But, you know, ask us this, five years ago, did we think that they'd be selling, you know, 2000, 2500 tickets a show right now? No, not at all. So, yeah, it's hard. You just have to pick up the right artist and you have years that are amazing. You can have a year that you made a shitload of money and then all your artists just happen to be in the studio at the same time. And no one's touring and no one has any income coming in. So then what? So you always have to ebb and flow. The money's ebb and flow. We're lucky enough to be at the point where our roster collectively does well enough to where none of the managers here have to eat what they kill. When I developed this company, I never wanted someone to make a decision based on keeping the lights on because that would force an artist to do something that might not be good for their career, like too over touring or saying yes to a tour that could be bad, look for them and just, you know, we never wanted to put them in that position. So everybody here is on salary, everyone here is healthcare, everyone here is 401k. We pay for cell phones, computers, the whole nine. Again, we're a real company and that requires a lot of overhead. And so we have to make sure that the big bands stay big and we're picking up stuff that will bring in income. Like the developing artists that I am working on right now, I 100% believe that in three years, they're going to be headlining and selling out 1000 1500 cap rooms and that my baby bands will now be the ones that are making us x amount a year. So it's tricky, but I've been doing it for so long that I just kind of get the math. [00:50:05] Speaker B: You answered a question that I was going to ask, but I'm going to put it out there and see where you take it. So a friend of mine who was on the Cut podcast before has a record label that's been around for a long time and has done well, but has always kept his side hustle as where he gets his living and could have lived off the label, but chose to never do it. So he has a separate business that is his, that has nothing to do with music and that's what he draws his income from. And I was like, fascinated, like, dude, why do you do this? Why don't you just do the label and put all your energy there? Because occasionally a band would be like, oh, all he cares about is this other business. He's not giving us enough attention. Da da da. And the reason he said, the reason I don't do that is I want my record label. I want to always be able to make choices based off what I like rather than what I need to make money. He's like, if I put all of my eggs in one basket, that means I can't just put out a passion project that I know is going to lose money or take a risk on a young band. It means I'm always going to be making choices about keeping myself paid. And that means the record label is going to probably die out of and still to this day has that side. It's not even a side thing. It's like their main thing. But he has two full on businesses. I thought it was real interesting, the idea that when you're talking about the creative space, if your passion becomes how you make your money, it can impact your ability to do something really, really cool. [00:51:34] Speaker A: I think it impacts your ability to do something really cool in a good, good way. You know, if, if I'm doing something really, really cool, I don't think about it every day, but my passion is what got me here. And I don't think this would, I would have never done this if I wasn't passionate about emo music and punk music at the time. [00:52:01] Speaker B: See this? I wanted your take on this because, so he's got this one opinion of it. But your story tells me something different. Like, you left a job where you were paid and you didn't renew that contract, and you did this because you're so passionate about it and you're doing something cool. So not only is like this thing that you love and you're super creative about in that space, it's how you make your, your living. But you've also created a financial model that's smart. When you said, like, nobody here is like, has to like, eat what they kill, we've got something that, it's like if you have a good year or bad year, you can, you can always get paid. That's like a smart way of doing it that allows people to put all their passion in one bucket and make a living. [00:52:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know if what I did was smart, I probably should have had something on the side. I am, I wish I wasn't this way, but I am. I just do things. I just be like, I'm going to do this, and then I'll look back later and be like, oh, shit, you know, whoa, I don't. My business partner is the complete opposite. He is deliberate, he is data driven, he's brilliant. He's very realistic. I mean, he owns multiple businesses himself. He has a couple restaurants in Philadelphia. He owns property. He has his own record label. Like, he's an entrepreneur in every way. I am not interested in that many things. I'm just really interested in working with artists and helping their careers. And I'm still betting on myself and hoping that, like, I'll have that one artist that does explode like a Billie Eilish or if I don't, one of our managers does. And we sit here and we all rally around him or her and we just make him. Make him or her have all of the tools necessary to ensure that that artist, you know, pops off. But I don't know if the way I did it, I do know the way I did it was not smart. It was not thought out. I just was like, I'm unhappy at this company. This is not a future that I want. I have a big ego and I think I can do this by myself. And then, boy, did that ego just get kicked right out of me once I was doing it by myself. So, yeah, I think the side gig. [00:54:19] Speaker B: Would have been smart going to that. Getting the ego kicked out right out from underneath you. Was there any upside for you to kind of, like, take that ego hit? [00:54:29] Speaker A: I think it's probably. It was good and bad. I think it. It probably shaped the way I look at the business, where it's like, I have to win. I have to make this work. I have to make this work. I have no security blanket. I've got nothing to fall back on. This has to work for me. I do not have rich parents. I was not lucky enough to be born that way. I have nothing else but this. So it puts you in a really vulnerable place where you almost can have an ego in certain aspects, but in other aspects, you have to have an ego because you need the drive to push yourself forward. So, yeah, it's confusing. I don't know what would happen if this doesn't work because, I don't know. I don't have a backup. I'm aging, I'm getting older. Who the fuck is going to hire an older woman in the music industry that has a certain salary requirement and only kind of has the skill of this? So I'm not going down without a fight. But I also think ego wise, I get my ego checked everyone in this business. Maybe daily, maybe monthly, it depends. I got fired by my biggest client two years ago, 2022. The day I was putting the deposit down on the house I bought Nashville, they called me. I was in California still because we moved from California to Nashville, they called me, they fired me. No reason. They just wanted to try something new. And I was devastated because I thought I did a great job for them. I thought that. And there was a lot of challenges that came with managing this band that I don't think they realized that took a lot of time away from the normal things a manager did. Interpersonal issues, you know, label struggles, label team was changing, firing, hiring. So it was like, couldn't really just get into a groove. It was a lot of challenges. And I was repping them for about five or six years, I think, and they were poised. They were making a record to. That was that I know is going to pop. It did pop. They're popping. And that was such a huge blow because then you're like, am I shot? Why did they fight? Like, do all my bands think this? Am I like our other? Like, it just makes you. There was two emotions. It was like, oh, my God, what the fuck am I going to do? Like, I just bought a house. This was like the. We were. I was going to make a lot of money off this band over the next couple years, and they were going to make a lot of money, and we were finally going to have our moment where we did all this grinding together. And now we can high five each other. But I don't think they felt about me the way I felt about them in the sense that I don't think they wanted to experience that with me. I just don't think they all collectively vibed with me. I think they wanted something else. And so there's that. But then there was this immense relief, this immense calm, because they were a very challenging act to work with. There seemed to be something and some sort of turmoil almost every day between the band or something. So every time, you know, just. There was never. Nothing was ever just good enough. Nothing was ever good. They would win. They would headline, sell something out. Something would be wrong with it. And it just. It made for me and whoever worked on them with me, just constantly feel like, is that good? Okay, cool, you're good. Okay. Oh, and the phone in your stomach would go off and you're just like, God, like, this isn't the way to live. Even though they were making us money and we were emotionally attached to them and rooting for them and wanting to win with them, there was this thought of like, oh, my God, I think I'm going to sleep like a fucking baby tonight because I don't have to wake up and look at my messages and just see a shit storm of shit that. That someone's pissed about that has nothing to do with me that I have to now deal with and talk through. Or, you know, it was a relief, but it did shoot my ego down because I had another artist that fired me a couple months prior to that, like, january of that of 2022. And then that artist, the other artist did in July, and they were artists I was with for a while. And I think, you know, you change the way you manage over time. I wasn't the same manager I was six years ago that I am now or with them. So the one band fired me because they kept changing their sound and it stopped resonating with fans. And when a tour doesn't do well or a record doesn't do well, someone's getting fired. Manager, agent, someone. So it was me, that one band. But the second band broke my ego completely of just being like. It took me, like, till probably earlier this year to shake it off and be like, no, I'm good. I'm good. I have great artists. I've got Kool acts. Things are on the up. I don't have anything on the roster that's dragging ass. I'm okay. But, man, did that shake me so. [00:59:55] Speaker B: Around artists, and I'm real interested about, like, the idea of, like, when the. When the relationship ends and how that happens. But let's start talk about. I'm interested in two things. One, developing a young act. Because when you talk about developing a young act, I'm real interested in that process. But also getting, let's say, a legacy act or building a relationship with a band that's maybe they've never had a manager or you're taking over from they'd fired their previous manager. So let's start with, like, an established band and getting a new client there. How does that happen? Like, are you out looking or people approaching you? Like, what happens there with a band that's already established? [01:00:37] Speaker A: Typically, lawyers are the key. A lawyer could, like, tip someone off, or an agent can tip someone off. Because we have nine people that work here in nine different networks, and there's always in our slack channel, someone would be like, oh, so and so fired. So and so. Does anybody want to chase this? Anybody want, you know, like, we'll put it in there. You know, I picked up an artist in October that has been a band for ten years. They wrote the same manager for ten years, and they let that manager go. And in slack from their booking agent was like, hey, this band's looking for management. Anybody want to take a meeting? And I was like, I'll take a meeting. Connect me. Connected me with their agent. Agent connected me with the band. Turned out I was just hopping to be in LA that week that they got home from tour. Like, I contacted them the week before I was in LA. We met. It just serendipity. It was just everything. Everything just worked out the way it should. My team was in LA with me. Like, my one manager that works with me, Emmy, she's in New Jersey. And my other Mike, who does all my touring and logistics, he's in LA. So I was in LA, meeting with this band is from LA. Emmy happened to be there for a different show. We were going. So the full trifecta was there in front of a band, which we've never done before, and it was just, like, a really not stressful. I didn't feel like a dog and pony show. I didn't have to be, like, our company does. It was just, like, a great meeting, and they hired us 48 hours, and that was just, like, cool. That's how it's supposed to feel. Like, it's not supposed to feel frantic and you're calling and following up and, hey, everybody cool. Just let me know if you made it. Look, ugh. I do not want to go through that again. Like, that dog and pony show makes me want to throw up is just not my vibe. And I have to do a little bit of that to get the client sometimes if they're a hot client, but I hate it when the. Everything I am. [01:02:40] Speaker B: What about, like, I imagine there's, like, maybe a spoken or an unspoken code about how, like, managers respect each other's territory, each other's talent, but I also imagine there's, like, a level of, like, poaching and, like, behind the scenes politicking. So what can you tell us about that? [01:02:57] Speaker A: Definitely, I think if you. All right, so when you hire a manager, you're basically paying somebody to have the relationships that you don't have. So I know a lot of people, and I'm friends with a lot of people, and I've had cool experiences with a lot of people. So generally, I feel like I have a lot of allies, and I'm an ally to a lot of people. Someone asks me, hey, do you have a contact here? Here it is. Hey, I'm looking for tour manager. Do you have any contacts? Sure. And vice versa. So there is a network of managers that I know would never mess with my roster, and I would never mess with theirs. And that's basically just based on years of relationship and being a good person. I don't fuck people over. Even if I had the opportunity, I would never, ever, ever do that. And so you get respect if you give it a. So I think that there's a lot of that within my network, but I'm sure there's managers that have talked to my artists at shows because their band is on tour with my band and maybe had a thought of, like, oh, if I was managing this band, I would do different, you know? But there's definitely poaching. It happens a lot more on, I think, the Billie Eilish higher stakes level. But, you know, if there's. If there's any win that a band is unhappy, oh, yeah, it's game on. Like, when I got fired from that band, managers that I'm friends with definitely met with them. They didn't call me and say, hey, I'm meeting with this band, just so you know, they just all met with them, but it's business. I wasn't working for them anymore. So go ahead. It's like breaking up with someone. Your friend's going to date your ex boyfriend, like, what are you going to do? So, you know, it wasn't poaching, but there was certainly not a lack of willingness for people to just jump in. My friend got fired by a client she's been with for, like, 16 years, and I wouldn't do the meeting because I just wouldn't want that done to me from a friend, like a close friend. [01:05:20] Speaker B: So what about, like, artists that you develop? Like, how do you find bands and then what's, like, the development process look like? [01:05:27] Speaker A: I find bands typically, but the developing bands come to me a lot by their agents because the agents, like, at their wits end because they're having to do a lot more than they want to do. So they're like, take this band on or labels. You know, I work with a couple labels that I've worked with for many, many, many years. I'm a trusted person. They know I don't do shitty deals. I'm not trying to pull the artist from their label. So they'll say, hey, this artist is looking here. And then when I pick them up, boy, you have to teach these kids how to look at their band as a business. That's the biggest challenge versus, like, we'll just do it. Let's just play the show. And it's like, why would you play this show? You just played the city last month. You're literally from here. Why would you play this again? This should be the market. You play the least amount. It's just, you have to really teach them how to make sound decisions. It's actually my most favorite thing to do is develop an artist. I adore young bands that are looking for guidance because they're like sponges and they're not used to pushing back on you. Whereas the artist I've been with for eleven years just used to be like, I don't want to do that. It's like, all right. But when they're younger, it's different. Everything is new and awesome and they're just, they have so many, they're so driven and you know, but you really have to teach them financial responsibility. None of them do taxes. None of them had any idea that the money that they get after tour not divided by five, you have to deduct 30%, then divide by five. Nobody's ever done that. So typically when I pick up a ban, our taxes are horrendous. And we have to clean up previous years of taxes because it's been in this one kid's personal bank account. They're not an LLC, he just has a bank of America and it's just like, oh my God. So you have to like make them an LLC, get a business bank account open, start showing them tour budget so they can see actually how much you're spending on this guy that's going on tour with you who's not doing a job well. It's really awesome to show them how this works. And I'm very big on educating baby acts. I don't ever want them just been, I'm the manager. I got this. Don't worry about, like, I probably over explain too much to some of my artists, but the last thing I want for them to ever feel bulldozed and to ever just leave this business feeling like they didn't understand it. I think my responsibility is to have them be my partner and I'm not their boss, even though they're technically my boss. I've been doing this for a long time. I know exactly what to do with their band. They do not. They just know how to play the music and they know how to speak to their fans. But I ought to do everything else. So I think it's, it's the most fun time I have because all ideas are on the table and they're just willing to do so much. It's so much fun. [01:08:24] Speaker B: So when you develop a band, you're building them up. What's to stop a band? Or I guess, like what protection does a manager have? Or really a band have for like, you invest however many years into this band and they get to a point where they're like, we're just going to choose a different manager. Like, what's the, what's the protection on, on either end of basically investing all this time where you don't make a lot of money and then now they're at the point where they're about to start making money and they like cut ties. [01:08:53] Speaker A: You get fucked. I mean there's management contracts. I had one with the artist that fired me. They fulfill what the contract said. It's usually a negotiation at the end of it. No one wants to deal with the back and forth from a client that just fired you. They typically pay you what they owe you basically. They paid you what you worked on, not on future stuff. If that wasn't anything you were involved with, even though they were conversations that you had about that future and the exact thing that they're doing, you get fucked. It sucks. [01:09:25] Speaker B: That's just like such a wild idea to me. It's like you build something up for like let's say two years or three years or five years and then like you can just be like, you know, just as someone's about to like crest into making real money. So it is like a real leap of faith with people too and just kind of like hoping that everybody can, can keep it together. [01:09:45] Speaker A: It is odd that I have an artist that has been with me since they were 1718 and 19 years old. We've been working together for eleven years. Luckily we've evolved together, our styles evolved together and they're just really loyal people and wonderful, awesome people. It's also the people like you kind of have an idea of the artist that you're getting involved with that would probably toss you away when and if the right opportunity came along. I think the roster I have now, I don't think they have anybody on the roster that I would think would do that right now. But you kind of know that there's just, you know, leapfrog artists, they exist. I actually met with one a couple weeks ago that didn't have a manager and I got that vibe and I was like, I'm done, I don't want this. No thanks. I'm not going to go through that again. [01:10:45] Speaker B: What's the relationship between the manager and the record label? I've heard a lot of different takes on it. One of my close friends runs a record label and he's given me the high points and the low points of dealing with managers. What's that relationship like when it's working properly? [01:11:07] Speaker A: It should be a partnership and a great team. We should be able to call each other and brainstorm ideas and help collaborate together the greater good of the artist and that's what I try and strive for. I'm never trying to come in swinging and being like, I'm the manager, you're the label, you're the enemy. Like, that doesn't work and that's just old school. [01:11:31] Speaker B: So I was looking at your brief when Monica put it together and he's talking about growing up. You had a fan, your parents had a family business or your dad had a diner and you really had a lot of like early life work ethic. [01:11:43] Speaker A: Yes. Yes. My dad is from the island of Laos, Greece. And he moved to America when he was in his early twenties. And my dad is from an island. And the island very different than like the bigger cities like Athens or road, like the bigger islands. My dad is from an island of 8000 people. The way he was raised is crazy. Basically, kids were pulled out of school in 6th grade and they're working on the farm, fishermen, whatever, to make money. So my dad came to America. We met my mom, we got married. I think he had a lot of that in him. So my dad had a greek diner and at age nine I had to be the cashier. My mom would work there after school when they were kind of short staffed and I would. I loved pressing the buttons and I learned how to be a cashier. And it tells you what change to give back. So it's not like I was doing mental math on the fly. And then I started waitressing at twelve. Just like at night with my family. I would just come, you know, tables would come in and then I started waitressing like four days a week my entire high school into college experience. And I worked there and I worked at a daycare. I worked three jobs during college. [01:13:09] Speaker B: So that level of hustle, how's that helped you? But also, how has that hurt you as you've built your career? [01:13:17] Speaker A: It's helped tremendously in the sense of like, I don't know how to sit still. Like. Like, I don't. I always want to be working. I want to be working towards something. You know, when I was working for my dad, I'm not working towards anything other than 07:00 p.m. so I can get the hell out of there and go to the mall with my friends. But it just. There's a lot of lazy people in this business that fail upwards because either the nepotism or the rich kids or whatever. So the drive I have to, to never fail came from my dad kicking my ass all the time. Nothing was good enough. If I got bees on my report card, one b or one c and the rest a's, he'd point to the c. I was never told good job, ever. It was never like, you're killing it. Never. So I don't ever think I'm killing it. Therefore, that is where the downfall of that work ethic comes in, because it really programs you to be so self critical and did not stop and smell the roses ever. And that's my biggest challenge now, is that, like, I don't feel successful. I don't feel like I'm at a place in life where I can kick back and, like, I'm working harder now than I feel like I ever have because I want to rebuild my roster and I want to find that artist that pops and I want to pop a bunch of them. And, you know, I have a successful business, but I don't feel like I am successful. I have managers here that are very successful artists, but I don't take credit for having the foresight to bring them in and to make Zack my partner. And, like, I. I know that I have a knack for seeing young talent and bringing it in, but, like, it doesn't feel like a success to me. I don't. I don't know how to explain it. It's a little bit of. Maybe a little bit of imposter syndrome. Maybe it's a little bit of my dad in my head just being like, what's that c? Is that that c? Where's. Look at all the a's but not the but you're focusing on the c. That's how I've been all my life. So, of course it's going to help me get out there and fucking not give a shit and go get an artist and bust in the doors of a record label and make them sign them or, you know, really get them opportunities. Like, that's because of my dad. [01:15:36] Speaker B: Yeah. So how do you take care of yourself then? You've got this, like, incredible drive, like, insane drive to get things done, to build things, to, like, really be in the mix. But also you've got, like, a highly self critical side of yourself that doesn't let you celebrate your own success enough or, like, really enjoy what you've done or be in the moment. So how do you take care of yourself? [01:16:00] Speaker A: Therapy and working out? I work out when I'm not traveling. I work out almost every day. I have a very, very chill husband. Like, he's very chill, and I'm a spaz. So there's times where he just grabs me by the shoulder and is like, no, go upstairs. I'll handle it. And then I'm like, fine. So it's just basically, I take care of myself when I can be home on the weekends, if I'm not traveling, I'm out in my garden, like, disconnecting from my phone. That's how I take care of myself, which is hard to do. [01:16:40] Speaker B: Let's go over to the artist side of things. I'm real interested in two things. A buddy of mine is close with, like, kind of a well known artist, and every time I've ever interacted with this artist, I've always been like, wow, that person is so nice and so down to earth and so giving of their time. Like, I'm always kind of, like, a little surprised. They're like, yeah. Like, yes, all those things are true. And you don't know the artist version of them when they're in their, like, sensitivities. I was like, well, what do you mean? It's like, there's just, like, normal person version of them where they're, like, all of those things you say, and then there's the artist's version of them where they're just really difficult. Like, really, really difficult. So how do you manage the more challenging side of artists? [01:17:29] Speaker A: I'm really, really good with difficult artists. It sucks. It's like, and I'm. It's funny. The cooler, like, the art is not cool in, like, hipster, but, like, the more interesting artists, like, the more that's very hands on, that has a certain vision that wants to control the art, that their music is really sick, and, like, they're very, like, interesting to work for, and they make it interesting. They're usually not the easiest. I listen to them. Like, I hear what they're saying, and we have a conversation about what they want to do, why they want to do it, and I explain why I think they should do the thing that they don't want to do. And I will push it to a certain extent, but once they say no, it's no, because it's their career. It's not mine. And so, you know, it's just I have to deal different artists differently too. Like, some do really well with humor. Some are really cool. Just, like, super blunt. Like, bro, you're just being a dick. Like, you need to, like, just listen. And they're like, all right, fine, you're sorry. Right? You're right. You know, but for the most part, it's just like hearing that. What's the challenge of, why don't you want to do this? Oh, you think it's a bad look? Why do you think it's a bad look? But did you ever stop to think about this? Like, we just have a conversation, and if at the end of it, the answer is still no, then the answer is no. That's it. [01:18:59] Speaker B: How do you manage it when your artists get into to spaces that. That you find, like, are unethical, uncool, or even just, like, straight up, like, problematic? Like, no. Like, what you're doing is uncool. Like, how do you manage that? [01:19:14] Speaker A: Well, I mean, I call them out. If they're doing something personal in their personal life that's a bit destructive, I will 100% call them out. I have a very. It's not even a style. It's just the way I am. But people tell me I'm kind of maternal with my artists, and so there is this ability for me to just be able to be like, honey, what are you doing? Like, what are you doing? This is destroying your health. What are you doing? And I think it's a responsible thing to do as a manager to call out an artist. If you see them going down a destructive path with, you know, for example, alcohol or drugs, like, I don't think you can be like, well, that's their personal life. Doesn't affect me. Doesn't affect the artist. They're still performing. They're still making money. Like, I think that there is a duty you have, and some people may not like that style because I am overly involved. I am involved in your life. I want to know when you broke up with your girlfriend or boyfriend, because we'll know not to present anything difficult or challenging to you during that time. You have to know the timing of how to approach an artist, too. But I think you have a responsibility as a manager to notice when your artists are struggling and to address it and not be afraid to do so. And if it means you get fired, then you get fired. But at least you did the right thing, and, you know, you did the right thing. [01:20:38] Speaker B: What if an artist acts like a shithead, though, and does something that you think is uncool, like, that you're not. [01:20:43] Speaker A: Cool with, like, morally? Yeah, we drop them. I will not. There's no amount of money in the world that can make me work with an artist that did something that, you know, I wouldn't agree with morally, whether it's, you know, abusing a woman or anything like that. Like, I just don't. We don't. Zero tolerance. We have a zero tolerance asshole policy here. So if you are an asshole to me, I will drop you on the. [01:21:14] Speaker B: Spot working with people that have, like, you know, the creative they can be difficult. They can have their ups and their downs. You talked about earlier having a little bit of a side of, like, having to almost be a therapist or even really be a therapist and also, like, be like, a parental figure to them. How much of that. How much of that came natural to you versus how much did you have to learn how to, like, deal with people in those spaces? [01:21:40] Speaker A: All of it comes natural to me. All of it. It could be because I worked with children from age 16. Not to insult them, they're not children, but when you're trying to deal with a child who's having a tantrum and they want the toy, and you have to figure out how to divert their attention to not want the toy anymore and to stop screaming takes an area of your brain to do that. And maybe that has conditioned me because I worked in a daycare from age 15 or 16 till I was, like, 20, till I moved to Philly, pretty much. And I worked, you know, with people at a restaurant, and I worked with people a lot. And I think that I am a naturally, like, I care about people that are close to me. I care passionately about my artists and their well being and their ability to, like, grow and be successful and achieve their vision. So there is a compassion that comes with what I do just naturally. [01:22:42] Speaker B: All right, as we're getting close to the end of the interview, I'm going to go into what we call the crucial three, and they're going to be three questions that scale up in difficulty as we get towards the end. Okay. Before we. Before we go there, though, is there anything you want to add in or add any. Go down any paths or ask any questions? [01:23:07] Speaker A: I don't think so. Whenever I do a podcast like this, I'm always like, they want to talk to me. Like, I just. It's just funny to me that people want to know what I do because I do not know how to articulate what I do. I just. It's so ambiguous what I do. And being. Coming up in the era that I came up as a woman is a challenge in itself. And so I don't think there's anything I want to touch on, per se, other than, you know, if you are a woman and you're interested in being in the music industry, like, do it, don't think you can, and, like, don't take no for an answer. And if a man talks down to you, go tell him to fuck himself and just keep going. [01:24:02] Speaker B: Heck yeah. All right. Well, right where you went is my first question. So my first of the. Of the three to anyone? Well, most people, I think it's like, oh, like, would you like to work in the music industry? Most people are like, hell yeah, that would be amazing. But also it's like, complex. Like, how do you find your path? Like, what stream do you go? Do you follow? Do you follow? Like, am I good at it? How much time should I spend, like, investing in this before I give up? So from a general space, you could take this any direction you want. What advice would you have for young people listening to this or even people who are in career but want to make a switch? What advice do you have to people, like, getting into the industry of music? [01:24:45] Speaker A: Be very, very prepared to have a side gig while you work in the music industry because nobody's just going to, like, hand you a job with a great salary. And it's not an industry that pays well at all. I always joke that it's not the real world working in finance and music doesn't pay as well as working in finance and, like, the real world. So be prepared to grind. And, you know, I have a bit of an old school mentality. Some of my team that works with me are millennials and Gen Zs, and they make fun of me because I'm like, you know, take every opportunity you can. Like, if you have an opportunity to go assist a booking agent, do everything and be the one that says yes to everything they need, because that's how you get hired full time. That's how people are. Like, oh, that, that dude or that girl. Like, yes, like that person. You should definitely hire them because we all talk. The music industry is the biggest drama. Like, everyone talks. Everyone knows. Everyone knew when that band fired me. Every. Oh, God, you hear what? You know, everybody talks. So because they talk, people are going to say, you know, hey, I'm working with this intern and they're amazing, but I don't have a job for them and I like them so, so much. Do you have anything like, that has happened to me like five or six times where people want to find someone a home because they're so good. And what makes you so good is by doing everything you're asked and not having this, like, attitude of like, well, they don't pay me for that, or I don't do that, or blah, blah, blah, blah, which I know is like, this generation's vibe. Just work hard, do everything and be reliable and go above and beyond and you will get hired, but you just have to stand out. I would also suggest, understand what you're getting into being a manager, being an agent. This is an office job. I'm not side stage with a camera. Although if you look at my instagram, you might think I am. It is an office job. I am behind the desk every single day when I'm not traveling to go see an artist or taking meetings. Be prepared to talk to people and know how to reply all to an email. Like, just little basic stuff, but, like, it's not like a gate, it's not fun. It's a very difficult business, and it's based on people skills. So if you're not good with people, don't bother. Or be something behind the scenes. Behind the scenes that doesn't interface. Like work at a merch company and work at the warehouse or something where you don't have the interface with the clients. But I would say it's very rewarding, but it's very challenging. So just be prepared. [01:27:42] Speaker B: All right. So across your entire history of working with bands, what are three bands that never, that didn't get the amount of attention that you think they deserved? [01:27:56] Speaker A: A manual. First band I ever managed. Hmm. There was a band, this is old, old school. It was a band back in the early two thousands named name taken. And they were like, not pop punk, but kind of pop punk, pop rock, I don't know what. They were so good. They were so fucking good. Never happened. I'm sure there's, like, more of a major artist, but I'm just thinking, like, on the indie level of the things that I've come across. Oh, and there's a band that I love called the receding end of sirens. They were absolutely incredible. I think they were from Australia. And oh, my God, was I obsessed with them. But it never popped the way I hoped it would. [01:28:54] Speaker B: Fuck yeah. Great answer. Okay, final question. It's a two parter, though. In the past five years of your career, what's something that you've learned about yourself that you didn't like and you've really worked on, and on the flip side, in the past five years of your career, what's something you've learned about yourself that you really like and you really feel good at the, and you feel really good about and you're happy. Happy just to, like, let it keep going. [01:29:25] Speaker A: I think what I've learned the past five years and I don't like is that I'm too self critical. I have too much of a. An inner monologue that doesn't enable me to enjoy some of the things, the wins that I'm doing or I move on from the wins too quickly. Like, that's cool, great. But they didn't sell out a thousand cap room. We need to do that next time. Like, you know, like, I don't. I don't enjoy the moment. Sometimes I do, but not enough. And I don't like that. And I am trying to smell the roses and change the way I look at things because there are a lot of wins and the small things, too. I think what I really like about what I've learned about myself is I enjoy being a leader at this company that I own, and I enjoy very much. I think that I'm good at speaking to our staff when they're down. You know, if they got let go from an artist or they just had a really shit day, or they tried to meet with an artist and the artist didn't hire them, they hired someone more. Like, I think that I'm really good at lifting them up, making them laugh, making them realize, like, this isn't brain surgery. Stop being so stressed out about this. Like, I should say this to myself, you know? But I say this to the team here because I don't want them to function the way I do. I don't want them to be anxious about an artist that's doing well. And, you know, I think that I'm really. I really like that I'm able to do that. [01:31:09] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Awesome. Well, listen, you're coming to the end. This was a super fun conversation. Every time I do a podcast, I never quite know what to expect with each person. And some people, it's just like talking to them. Like, I've known them for 20 years, and this was with you. You were just really easy to talk to. You and I had a lot of fun. So thank you so much for being here. [01:31:28] Speaker A: Thank you. I appreciate it. That's really nice to say. Thanks for having me. [01:31:32] Speaker B: You bet. Any last words as we close off. [01:31:35] Speaker A: Go to alternate side. Check out our artists. They're awesome. [01:31:39] Speaker B: All right. And we'll have all of your links and all your stuff in the, in the, in the episode bio, everyone. I hope you got as much out of this as I did. I love, love talking to entrepreneurs. It is so cool. You can hear the sides where you're like, oh, crap, I feel exactly that way. And then you hear other sides, you're like, huh? I never actually thought of it that way. This was such a great example of someone who just has, like, total guts to go out and do it. I love the confidence. I love the willingness to take the leap, but also to learn along the way. So thanks so much. I hope everyone had a good time, and we'll see you next time. On one step beyond. [01:32:23] Speaker A: Be gone.