Ian Trebinski, COO, V.Ships

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey everybody, welcome back to the show. It is very exciting to be here. It is our last of 2025. It's going to be coming out right around Christmas and with that, one of the greatest gifts I have is to have one of my favorite people on the podcast. Ian, welcome to the show. [00:00:15] Speaker B: Aram, thank you very much. It's great to be here and really honored to round out 2025 for you in the and the podcast. [00:00:22] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, so for the uninitiated, for those who don't know, who are you and what do you do? [00:00:28] Speaker B: I am Ian Trabinsky and I am the chief operating officer for V ships. V ships are a third party ship manager, operating vessels in a wide number of segments and spheres globally for a large global ship owning client base. [00:00:47] Speaker A: Okay, so what does it mean to be a third party shipper? Like what, what does that actually mean? [00:00:55] Speaker B: So we, we, we look after ship owners vessels. So there are generally there are two types of ship owner. There are ship owners who do everything in house very traditionally. So they will buy the vessel, they will fix the cargoes, they will deal with the commercial work, they will employ the crews, they will employ the shore teams that operate audit inspectors, maintain the vessel. So they would do everything entirely in house. And that is a very traditional way of doing it. And there are lots of pros and cons associated with that. Then there are those ship owners who will outsource the management of their vessels to third party ship managers like V ships. So in those instances, our clients tend to retain the commercial side of things. So they will, they will find the cargoes, fix the cargoes, deal with the commercial side of things. But the physical management and care of the asset they will give to ship managers like V. So we will provide superintendents to inspect the vessels, we will find crews to crew it, we will train the crews, we will do all of the audits, insurance. So we'll kind of look after the physical asset and make sure that the vessel is safe, secure, compliant, ready to do a good job, leaving the customer to focus on the commercial and the cargo side of things. I hope that's clear. [00:02:19] Speaker A: It is. I have so many questions, but okay, with that in mind, what does a chief operating officer do in that world then? Like, what is your job? [00:02:29] Speaker B: So the way we are structured within V ships, we also have a large portion of our business that is focused on crew supply. And you know my colleague Alan, Alan Falkenberg, who runs our marine HR division. So in V ships we have our sort of core technical ship management side and our crew management side, Alan looks after this piece over here. I do everything else apart from the crew side. So the, the operations teams report into myself, our HSSEQ function reports ultimately into myself, technical dry docking, procurement, continual improvement, our operational support centers, our shared resource pools, our audit teams onshore and offshore. So I kind of COVID everything that is technical, nuts and bolts, asset focused, you know, and then reporting outwards to the customer. And as I say, Alan looks after the marine HR crew supply side of things as well. So the two of us working in tandem within V ships, we provide that entire service and package out to our customers. [00:03:40] Speaker A: Okay, so tons to talk about, about your role, about the industry, but how did you even get into this? Like, what's your background? [00:03:48] Speaker B: So my background is I'm a mariner by trade. I'm a navigator. I went to sea way back in 1996. I went to sea as a, as a navigating officer and I come from a long line of very proud artilleryman. So being a fifth generation potential artilleryman, I, I went and joined the Navy. So that was a whole difficult conversation with my father and grandfather at the time. But yeah, I went to sea as a navigating cadet and I worked for an organization here in the UK called the Royal Fleet Auxiliary. So they went to sea alongside the Royal Navy, providing all the support, fuel, logistics, supplies, ammunition, troop carriers, alongside the Royal Navy in its core role. Then I left the Royal Fleet Auxiliary and I spent a couple of years doing commercial shipping before I came ashore back in 2005. And I went to work for the UK Chamber of Shipping and I've been in shore based roles ever since and kind of moved from that compliance legislation focus in my first role in the UK Chamber of Shipping into kind of ship operations, owner, operator things. And then I spent the majority of my time working in the offshore sector. So offshore oil and gas, predominantly in the Middle east, the Caspian, West Africa and the. Pick my next words carefully. The Gulf of Mexico, slash, Gulf of America. [00:05:17] Speaker A: Gulf of Mexico. [00:05:21] Speaker B: We have a lot of big important American customers. So. [00:05:24] Speaker A: I got it. I. I got it, I got it, I got it. All right, dude, just the terms. I went to see and I came to shore. I can guarantee you there's not a person on this podcast who's spoken about their life like that ever. Ever. [00:05:38] Speaker B: Yeah, you, you go to sea and I think you, you leave a large part of you at sea. It is, it is. Like, I'm sure everybody says this, but it's like no other career out there, you know, I Don't think there's any other career or very, very few careers where someone would say, I'm off to work, love. I'll see you in nine months. [00:05:58] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I know I've made some, some commentary with you about it sounds like going on tour with, with your band, but you know, when you're on tour with your band, you're eating at like whatever awesome vegetarian restaurant, whatever city, and you're like, you're staying at a nice hotel that night. It's not like what you're talking about. But let's go further. Okay. Where did you grow up? [00:06:19] Speaker B: I grew up all over the place. So my, my dad was in, was in the army, so I had my first three years in the Midlands. I had my next three years in the south of England. I then had my next seven years in Germany and then I then came back to the uk and then, and then, then I went away to sea and then I bounced around in various places sort of at sea and kind of living with my buddies and doing studenty type young man things when I was on shore back in the uk. So I grew up in, in a lot of places. [00:06:50] Speaker A: Yeah. So being on the move, dealing with different groups of people and trying to like create connection, create a social group, being in different cultures, that was normal for you growing up? [00:07:01] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I think by the time I got to go to secondary school when I was 12, I'd been in 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 different schools by the age of 12. [00:07:14] Speaker A: So where did thrash metal come into this? [00:07:20] Speaker B: I'll. I can tell you exactly where I came into it. So when I was in Germany, I gave, I saved up my pocket money and I got my babysitter at the time to buy me Guns N Roses, Appetite for Destruction, which he managed to sneak into, sneak into my house because I was super below the age for owning the album or looking at any of the artwork on the COVID but. And I just fell in love with like rock, heavy metal, thrash metal for, from that kind of age. At 11. My dad was a big metal head, you know, so he had original Zeppelin albums, Steppenwolf albums, Sabbath albums. And there in the record rack alongside that was my mom's record collection. And she was into like Motown, soul and, and stuff. So had this real eclectic musical influence growing up. So I kind of, I don't know, I took a hard right or a hard left and went down the kind of the heavy metal, thrash metal. And then I think I, when I came back to the uk, My first secondary school here, my good friend of mine who I'm still in touch with, you know, guy called David, you know, you may like these guys. Metallica. And that was it, man, I was converted from. From that day. [00:08:26] Speaker A: Heck, yeah. Did you ever have long hair? [00:08:29] Speaker B: I did, but strangely enough. Strangely enough, probably when I was too old to have long hair. And. And my very. If you ever meet my very best friend, G give you a story about me and my long hair in an Alice band, which I. Which I wrote for, which I won't recount further. [00:08:48] Speaker A: Mike, who's our engineer, who's like, sitting behind the camera right now, he also, at, like, a like, bizarre age, just decided to grow his hair out of nowhere. And he went from having this, like, real slick haircut to growing his hair out. I remember at the time being like, this is. This is not going to go well. But it looked awesome. It was totally amazing. And then when he cut it, I was mourning his hair because it was like, totally amazing. Are you growing your hair back, Mike? Yep. Good for you. Long hair for life. All right, so you're this. You're this teenager, like, metalhead. What got you to go to sea? Like, what was the call? Like, what was the thing where you're like, oh, that's what I gotta do? [00:09:28] Speaker B: Honest to God, it was. There was no calling. So at the time, I worked for an organization called the NAFI N aafi, the Navy Army Air Forces Families Institute. They were. They were a British institute set up back in the First World War to provide stuff to the armed forces. They literally set up by. By men carrying boxes of boot polish chocolate bars, candy, into the front lines, into the trenches in the First World War. That is where they started. And by the end of the 20th century, they were providing all of the food, supplies, victuals, drink to the entire British armed forces globally. So their headquarters was just down the road from. From where we lived in the uk, which was, strangely enough, a big military base. And I. And I went to work there after I left school. I got a job there and I got a job working on the ship desk. So I was providing, or I was helping provide supplies and services to the UK Royal Navy and the Royal Fleet Auxiliary. And I was doing. I think I did that for about 18 months, two years. Fascinating. Really, really enjoyed it, talking to lots of people on the ships and within the naval organization around the world. And then, unfortunately, the NAFI lost the contract. They lost the contract to the UK mod. And my department was one of the first to be made Redundant. So I was literally going to be out of a job in three months time and I was talking to one of the supply officers on board one of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary vessels and a guy who had made a good relationship with over the two years, sort of talking to him about nice knowing you kind of thing, I'm going to be having a job in three months. And he said, well, you seem like a smart guy. Why don't you just apply to the rfa? Why don't you apply to become an officer cadet with the Royal Fleet Auxiliary? And I was like, okay, this is, this is the first time I've ever heard of any such career. Yeah, I mean if I ever meet my careers advisor near a dark alleyway and it will be a long conversation with him. But, but I said okay. So I sent my CV in, the guy gave me the address, I sent my CV in and I kind of thought nothing more of it. And a couple of months later I got an invite to go down to be an officer cadet applicant. Walked into a room in Her Majesty's Naval Base in Portsmouth and was met by four gentlemen in big shiny uniforms and lots of gold. And I was kind of this fresh faced 18, 19 year old lad. Did not have a clue what I was doing there or what I was going to do or say. Must have impressed at least one of them because a couple of months later I got an invite to, to join the officer cadet program and I, I went to, I went to a training school down in Wasash in Southampton and then spent the next four years at Warsash doing six months of college, six months of C, six months of college, six months of sea. And it was amazing, man. Absolutely amazing. Traveled the world, met amazing people, saw amazing things, learn amazing skills. Yeah. And that was like nearly 30 years ago. And ups and downs, highs and lows. And I lovingly refer to my time as Wars Ashes. HMP was ash Her Majesty's Prison. But I wouldn't have changed it, I wouldn't have changed it for the world, man. And looking back on it, those four years were amazing. The, the friendships I made there, particularly with like my, my, my closest friends. Just, just unshakable, unbreakable bonds. [00:13:04] Speaker A: What did you think you were going to do professionally when you were in school? Like, what was your goal? [00:13:09] Speaker B: I, I wanted to be, I wanted to be a underwater cameraman. [00:13:13] Speaker A: So it had something to do with water. Like you knew you wanted to do something. [00:13:17] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean I love to. You know, when we go on holiday, I would, I would always be under the water. I would not be on the beach, I wouldn't be on the water. I would be under the water. Even if we were, you know, just off the coast of Devon and there was nothing to see, I'd be under the water. I loved it. Wanted to be a diver and I wanted to be a cameraman for like David Attenborough documentaries. I just found that kind of stuff fascinating. [00:13:40] Speaker A: And you never tried to pursue any of that? [00:13:42] Speaker B: I did and I was told, I think I was around 9 or 10 at the time. One of dad's friends in the army was an army diver and he just outright told me as a 10 year old kid, you know, he was this 6 foot tall, strapping, 20 something army diver, just looked me in the face and went, no, you've got asthma, you'll never be a diver. And walked off. And that was the crushing of my dream right there. And I would. And that's another guy I'd like. Maybe not near a dark anyway because he was a big lad. But that's another guy I'd like to meet because I subsequently went on and did a hell of a lot of padi qualifications up to the point that I actually become a qualified rescue diver. So stick that in your army pipe and smoke it. My friend had a job and a family and bills to pay, so it was a bit too late to give it all up and become a cameraman. [00:14:34] Speaker A: Was that. Did you get your dreams crushed before you got your Guns n Roses tape or after? [00:14:38] Speaker B: It was after. Maybe. Maybe that's the guy that set me on the path. Maybe it's all his fault. [00:14:45] Speaker A: He made Metallica a boatload of money off of Ian's. [00:14:49] Speaker B: That is it. That is it. [00:14:53] Speaker A: Okay, so you go to, to be a officer cadet in training. Tell us about the first time you went to sea, what was that like? [00:15:02] Speaker B: Amazing. I think myself and my cohort, we were, we timed it to perfection. So we, we did our first three months. It was actually we started in the September of 96 and did a whole three months of wars Ash came home in the SEPTA in December around Christmas time. And then in the January we deployed, deployed on what was called Operation Ocean Wave. And that was a deployment to go out to the Far east and hand Hong Kong back to China. So we had six months. It was literally six months to the day from leaving Plymouth to arriving in Fremantle in Australia, where I flew home from. And in those six months we went, we went to Gibraltar, Port Said, Dubai, trundle around in circles for three weeks doing anti Submarine exercises in the Indian Ocean. We went to the Philippines. Thailand. Philippines, Thailand. Hong Kong, Philippines, Thailand. Hong Kong, Philippines, Thailand, Australia. It was mind blowing. It was mind blowing. And the day after we, the day after we handed Hong Kong back. The fleet, I think was 20, 22 vessels in total in the fleet just outside of what was now then Chinese territorial waters. The fleet lined up 11 vessels in a line and the Royal Yacht Britannia with the Prince of Wales Charles at the time, sailed down the middle of the 11. The two lines of 11 vessels got the full 21 gun salute from every vessel as the yacht sailed down the middle. And when he got to the head of the fleet, the flags came up. Spliced the main brace and Charles spliced the main brace and bought a shot of rum for every single person in the fleet. That was my first trip to sea. That's the story I say, when people say, why do you look back on it so fondly? I mean, tell me, anywhere else in the world, any other job where you would get any experience like that, you know, crossing the equator, crossing the date line, going to these amazing places, doing amazing things, you know, doing stealthy night operations of putting Royal Marines ashore and doing live fire exercises, you know, sitting off. That was another one, man. We sat off the coast of Brunei and watched all this tracer fire going off into the jungle in the dark with, with a comet going overhead. I'm not making it up because you just couldn't make it up. It was mind blowing. And that was my first experience to see six months. And it was phenomenal where, I mean, learn so much about myself, about the industry, about the trade, about ships, about being at sea. It was just nonstop learning for six months. And it was amazing. Absolutely phenomenal. [00:17:44] Speaker A: When you say you learned a lot about yourself, like, how did that first trip and then any, just even your time there, like in the, in the, in the auxiliary, how did this change? [00:17:54] Speaker B: You grow up rapidly. You grow up rapidly. I mean, if I look at what kind of my, my, my cohort, when we went to college, there were lads there who were literally 16 years old. They'd left school three weeks earlier, gone straight here. Some of us were 20, 21. You know, we'd already left home or spent time living away from home, whatever. So there was a wide range of kind of age groups, backgrounds, profiles. And, you know, being honest, I kind of thought, I'll adapt to this quite easy. I've moved around a lot. I'm an army kid, I'm used to this. It was a struggle, man. It was, it was. You're a long way from home. You know, when you, when you, when you, when your mom and dad are in Wiltshire or Cornwall or Scotland or wherever it is and you're off the coast of Batam, that's a long way from home, whichever way you cut the mustard. And, you know, it was difficult. You know, I learned a lot about myself, about my own strengths and weaknesses, my resilience, my weak spots and how to, how to not cope with that, but how to grow resilience, you know, how to recognize those where you shine, where you need to be able to shine, and how you, how you grow and leverage and how you lean on each other, how you lean on your shipmates. And like I say, you know, my best friend Gareth and I, we. We've known each other for nearly 30 years now. And my wife, she boggles at it because we will see each other. We'll spend three days together. We'll talk absolute crap for 72 hours. We will not see each other for another 12 months. Then we'll get back together and pick up that exact same conversation from 12 months ago and just carry on like nothing ever happened. Or we'll refer to a joke one of us stupidly made 18 years ago. And it's just, I don't know, I think maybe it's the military side of things or maybe it's that kind of spending a lot of time in close confines with people where you have to rely on each other and your hands are in each other's lives to one extent or another. It just makes really, really strong friendships and bonds and relationships. And I, I struggle to see any other kind of, or very few other industries where you get that genuine camaraderie in that sort of degree. [00:20:15] Speaker A: So I hear a lot of the good things you developed as a part of that. What were the things that you learned about yourself that you knew you had to work on that were revealed through this process? [00:20:27] Speaker B: Humility. You got to be humble. I think it's a very unique. I mean, I was 19, so I went to see in 19, kind of. I kind of think I know what I'm doing. I can cope with this. I think day, not even day one, about 0.3 of the way through day one, you go, I have no idea what I'm doing. This is completely alien. I've had a three minute conversation with somebody called a boson, and I understood what, five seconds of what he said. I am not even on the learning curve, never mind behind it. So you've got to Be humble. There's so much to learn about yourself, about what's going on around you. And then that's just you being a cadet on day one when you then have that realization, at some point I'm going to be running a watch, I'm going to be on deck running a cargo operation, I'm going to be running the ship. You know, at some point in the not too distant future, it's going to be 3 o' clock in the morning and it's me and two guys and responsible for 200 meters of steel, cargo, lives, everything else. So you got to have that humility to actually accept, you know, what everything I think I knew, I knew nothing and I got to start from scratch. And I think then having that humility, that ability to self reflect, that ability to self critique, that kind of then just grows organically. What do I, what do I need to accept that? I don't know, what do I need to accept that I'm not good at? What do I need to accept that I need to go away and read a book and learn about, about this thing And I'm not going to spend tonight watching TV because I got to study this thing because it's a bit more important than, maybe not quite as important as football, but it's a bit more important than the soap opera kind of thing. So that ability to be humble, be self reflective, accept that you don't know everything and have that desire to want to go and learn, improve no more than you did yesterday. I think that was the biggest thing that I took away in certainly in that first six to 12 months of being at sea. [00:22:30] Speaker A: All right, so when you were just kind of giving us your intro, you talked about going out to sea. Is this like very specific part of your life and your career? But then, then you talked about coming to shore as a specific part. So that transition, like what led to. [00:22:45] Speaker B: That, I, I came out of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary, I wanted, wanted to go into civilian shipping and try something new. And I kind of did a number of roles in, in civilian shipping or merchant marine. And I, and I happened to be working, I'm doing an agency job. So it's kind of a short term contract, two weeks on, two weeks off. And it was good, I really enjoyed it. Interesting work. But the agency I was actually going through at the time, the, the lady there called me up and she said, hey, I've got a really interesting job. It's onshore and it's working for the UK Chamber of Shipping in London. Would you like me to put you forward for it. And I thought that sounds very, very different. Very, very cool at this time. I'd been at sea but almost 10 years, let's go for it, you know, got nothing to lose and maybe now's a good time to come ashore. And again, I obviously did something right in my interview because that the UK Chamber of Shipping took me on. So I came ashore in the summer of 2005, I think it was back into 2005, and came into the UK Chamber of Shipping here in London as their marine consultant. So the Chamber does a lot of work in kind of helping shape legislation here in the uk, but also internationally, helping sort of influence government decision making, that kind of stuff. So there were at the time, I don't believe. I think there was one other gentleman there who was ex Royal Navy, nobody else had been to sea. They were very much kind of policymakers, politically minded, lobbyist minded, if I could say that. So I think bringing me in enabled them to have, dare I say, a bit of a spanner wrangler in the trenches to actually talk about some of the technical issues. So it was very, very interesting to come in with a very technical background and then again, have to kind of adapt and accept, actually, I understand nothing about the legislation, the policy making, the lobbying side of things, and take this kind of very core skill set. Nuts and bolts there, I say, and have to then learn some of the softer stuff. Lobbying, dealing with international industries, national stakeholder groups. International stakeholder groups going across the river and sitting in the International Maritime Organization where they make global maritime legislation. So, again, it was a big, big learning curve in the two years I was there with the Chamber. But again, also fascinating, fascinating, fascinating couple of years that I had that. [00:25:16] Speaker A: What was the hardest part for you? So shifting from being like a doer. I am out at sea, like, literally, I'm doing things to someone now who's more like influencing policy and influencing ideas and shifting. So what was the hardest part for that? [00:25:30] Speaker B: Everything you just said, going from, you know, going from picking up a tool or being on deck in your coveralls, you know, having a direct conversation with a team of equally minded doers, getting a job done, rolling your sleeves up to rolling your sleeves down and putting on a tie and having to influence, you're working through decision makers, working through influence, working through evidence and lobbying and being. And the hardest part, and arguably something I still struggle with, is the interminable speed at which the industry does not move. You know, we could have a conversation today about something we might get around to implementing in five years time. That is just agony to me. You know, when you, when you, when you're, when you're on vessels, whether they're military vessels or civilian vessels, you're used to kind of making decisions that you can influence. Now where does the cargo go? Where do the people go? Do I take a turn to port? Do I take a turn to starboard? Do I speed up? Do I slow down? And that has immediate ramifications and benefits. But then you move into lobbying and policymaking and oh my God, you know, you may get to see a policy come to light before you retire. That's a good thing. That was tough. That was really tough. [00:26:47] Speaker A: Did you have any struggle with, I don't want to say lack of purpose, but you know, when you're, when you're living on a ship, essentially you're literally on the move all the time. Like you're actually, even as you're sleeping, the thing is, is moving and you're in a different place geographically literally every single day. And there's that sense of purpose of just like getting up and knowing you have a job and doing that job. There's like a system around you. You're part of a machine in many ways to the shift of, well, now I live in an address and I go to an office and I do these things that don't like, it's not like turning a spanner. It's not like fixing this thing. There isn't a whole machine that is as clearly defined around me. What was, what was it like shifting from one reality to the other? Like what was that like for your psychology? [00:27:40] Speaker B: It wasn't, it wasn't such a big impact for me where I transitioned from kind of being deep sea. I then gone into kind of coastal services. So I was doing two weeks on, two weeks off anyway. So I was having like a fortnight at home doing stuff at home. I think, however, not, I think I know if I had gone from, you know, deep CRFA four plus month trips to then having to be on the 6 o' clock commute train to London, if I'd done that over a weekend, I, I absolutely know that would have been very, very difficult to get my head around. And I've seen it happen to people, you know, both in, you know, my dad and his, his buddies from the army, they're making that transition to civvie life. People even make it or they don't. So I think I absolutely get that. But I think what also helped was staying in the industry. And no two Days are the same in this industry, right? Like you say, whether you could be dealing on a piece of policy that for the UK Wind Power association today. And then when I get to the office tomorrow, sorry, and I'm talking about my UK Chamber days here, you get to the office the following day and actually I got to go and have a meeting with a UK ship owner who wants to talk about crewing rates just down the road in London. So the industry itself, because it is so global, so dynamic, you know, vessels, seafarers, cargo is literally moving around all over the place. No two days are the same in this industry. And I think that's, that's one of the really exciting, attractive parts of it for me personally is there's always something different, something interesting, something exciting to get your head around. And then you can kind of, you can kind of overlay your own regime. Right? You know, getting on that train, doing that thing. What do I do when I get to the office, how do I run my day, how do I run my teams, how do I interface my stakeholders? You can kind of put a bit of regime and rigor around your general working day to kind of keep yourself into that locked in state, if you like. [00:29:37] Speaker A: Let's talk a bit about the industry. I think it's kind of like a perfect point to start dating on that. Almost everything you've ever told me about the industry and our work together, I've been like, I can't believe I never thought about that. Like, I can't believe I haven't considered that. There's been so many, and I don't even mean like big dramatic things, but of course there's been plenty of those that we've been able to talk about. So just the shipping industry in general, do you think the common person really understands the impact it has on their lives day to day? [00:30:08] Speaker B: No, absolutely not. Absolutely not. 90% 9 0. 90% of the world's trade is moved by ship and people just do not understand it. They don't see it, they don't appreciate it, they don't understand it, they don't feel it and they certainly take it for granted. [00:30:35] Speaker A: You use the number, so you use 90%. You might not have access to this. You might like, you might even if you just spitball it. How much is that 90%? How much is that number shifted from like 100 years ago? [00:30:49] Speaker B: It's gone ever so slightly down from 100 years ago because we now have air freight and we've got better rail links, we've got better road links, but it's still 90%, you know, and I mean, pick your analogy, right? But let's, let's pick a tiny one. Go home. Look at your Christmas tree. Nine out of 10 presents on New York Christmas tree will have got there because of a ship and a crew of seafarers. It is that simple. [00:31:16] Speaker A: Is it? But that's crazy. Like, dude, I would never, if, if you just said to me, hey, how much like, what percentage do you think of the goods that you interact with in a, in a year are coming from a ship? I would be like, I don't know, like 50%. I would have no idea. I would never have said 90%. [00:31:33] Speaker B: It is. And I think it's, it's. It is very sad that the world population just doesn't appreciate that. And it's different because there are kind of, there are obviously maritime communities, maritime nations, and they have a bigger appreciation for it. And there are other. But I think as a global population, we just, we've completely lost track of this. Right. If I can go onto Amazon and order something and it gets to my front door tomorrow, I just think it's in a warehouse. You know, Dave, the delivery driver has just gone up the road and picked it up from a warehouse. Yeah, but it didn't beam to the warehouse. It had to get from the manufacturer to the warehouse. And that's where, that's where global shipping comes in. And it's not just Amazon, you know. And the other thing that, because I was having a conversation about this recently, I think something to deeply, deeply reflect on that is in the not too distant past is Covid. You know, I'm not taking anything away from the frontline workers that did so much to protect the world during COVID But those doctors, those surgeons, those nurses, those hospitals, they would not have been doing what they were doing without global shipping. The ppe, the tools, the equipment, the medicines, the supplies, the gas, the coal and the oil, keeping the power station on to keep the lights on in the operating theater. That is what kept us going through Covid. It was the seafarers out there. I personally know seafarers who were at Sea for 14 months. They joined before the pandemic and they were stuck at sea for the duration of it. And that is another thing that the global population just doesn't pay any attention to. It's seafarers. We talk about ships, we talk about cargoes, we talk about the kind of the heavy industry. It's people, people doing crews of 24 guys at sea in difficult conditions, away from their Families and loved ones for very long periods of time. Those are the ones who got the world through. [00:33:38] Speaker A: Covid. Why isn't this understood more so when you said, hey, like, you know, people maybe from like, more like maritime based communities would know more. Dude, I live in Vancouver. I live in like a port town. The port is down the street from my house. Like, I am completely disconnected. And that could just be, it could be me. Maybe you're the common Vancouverite thinks about this stuff. But I live on the west coast as well, so I go to coastal cities. I just never really. It's not front of mind to me about what an integral part of the shipping industry plays in just my, my daily comfort. So why is that something that's just not that people just don't connect to as much? [00:34:22] Speaker B: It's a great, it's a great question and I think there's, there's just no one answer. There are a number of reasons. You know, I think first and foremost it's not sexy. Let's be honest, it's not a sexy industry. Right? You know, when we talk about AI and bots, or I'm going to go and be a YouTuber or whatever that, whatever it is the young people want to do in the 21st century, being a mariner is way, way down the list, further down than it was 30 years ago. And I think it's not all aspects. I think if you think of a cruise ship, everybody can picture a cruise ship, right? And everybody would see a picture of a cruise ship and go, oh, well, that's quite a sexy thing. I'd, I'd like to spend some time on that nice sleek white thing with all the swimming pools. But if you showed them the container ship that was just around the corner in the container terminal, they'd go, I don't want to go there. I'm all good for that, thank you. It's a little bit rusty and it's very boring. I'm not interested. So there is an image kind of thing which I get, but I think it's also the way the industry has evolved. And if you think again, if you go back 100 years, every port was in the middle of every town, or rather every town had grown up around every port. And London's a great example. 100 years ago, there would be ships. I could see ships out of my office window just there on the River Thames. Ships have got bigger traders, got bigger traders, become more international. The ports have moved away from the centers of populace. So you just don't see ships Anymore. In the majority of ports, my family or my wife's family come from Southampton. Here in the uk, the city still runs alongside the port. Everybody in Southampton and Portsmouth and a lot of the smaller UK ports, they're still intrinsically tied because the port and the ships are still right there on their doorstep. You can walk out of pretty much any street in Southampton and see a cruise ship, see a container ship, see a bulk carrier. So I think in those areas where the physical connection to the port and the industry is closer, it's still very much ingrained in the local populace. But certainly here in London, very few ships come up the river anymore. You know, Thames Gateway is 20 miles down the river. That's where the container ships are. That's where the cargo happens. Now you don't really see ships in your back door anymore. And times change. You know, 100 years ago, there were very few industries out there and shipping was a great industry to be in. It paid well, you went to exciting places. If you were really lucky, you got to come home alive with some money. So that was a kind of a thing. Now, I mean, even, you know, there are careers that exist today that didn't even exist pre pandemic. So young people, they've got so much choice and so much opportunity to go and do exciting, cool things that just don't involve ships. [00:37:07] Speaker A: So, yes to all that. But even like when you say to me, 90% of the things that we interact with come from shipping, why has that number not gone down to 85 or 80 or 70? Like, how can it be so high? And people also have such little connection to, oh, this is all driven by shipping. So is it? There just hasn't been a better way. Is it, like, what's, what's the reason behind it? [00:37:36] Speaker B: Primarily efficiency. If you think about, you know, the cost, if you look at it, you look at a 21st century container ship, the volume of cargo you can get onto that ship and move around the world to key logistic hubs versus the equivalent cost and time of doing it by air. It's just, it's just incomparable. It's just completely incomparable. And, and, and then there's, in more recent times, it is now the environmental implications. You know, if you think of the CO2 per freight ton mile on a container ship versus a plane, incomparable. You just can't beat it. Yes, ships are big. Yes, they have big engines. Yes, they burn a lot of fuel. But like I say, when you look at that per ton freight mile, how much you're moving the distance, you're moving it for the amount of fuel you're burning. The CO2 footprint of the maritime industry is, is insignificant next to road air, pretty much any other, any other, any other freight. And what actually. So now putting my, my, my, my jaunty old sea dog hat back on here in V ships, we've actually just started working with a French customer who are now doing for the first time in a long time, cross Atlantic sailing cargo vessels. They have modern designed sailing vessels and they're small, they're only carrying a few thousand tons of cargo, but they are quite literally carbon neutral. They are taking cargo across the Atlantic like we did back in the good old days of sale. And more, more ship owners are looking at those kind of new but old innovations. How can we, how can we harness the power of wind and alternative power to get cargo further for cheaper and with even less of a carbon footprint than we're doing today? [00:39:45] Speaker A: When we had dinner in the spring, you had said to Monica and I, and this blew our mind. You're like, yeah, shipping was actually initially like basically a green industry until, you know, people wanted to get their cargo faster. And if people were just comfortable with getting their thing slower, it could actually be a green, green industry. Can you tell us more about that? [00:40:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean sail, you know, if you go back to the days of the Cutty Sark and the great, great steam ships, great sail ships of that era, it's carbon neutral, they're not burning anything. Right. So I'm really excited about the opportunity. If you, if you look at the modern technologies in terms of designing hulls, you know, hydro modeling, what, what a modern hull can do, then building it with modern techniques. Carbon fiber, you know, alloy reinforcement, this kind of stuff. If you could build the Cutty sark in the 21st century, wow, that's a game changer, right? I mean she, she was the fastest ship of her time. That, let's try that in the 21st century. I mean, yeah, fine. No, I, maybe, maybe I'll take the fact I have to wait 10 days for my Amazon parcel, but it's coming here on a really cool ship with zero carbon footprint. I think I might wait the 10 days. [00:41:06] Speaker A: Hell yeah. What are some of the unique challenges of this industry, especially being a leader in this industry? Like things that people just wouldn't even know about or even think to think about. [00:41:20] Speaker B: I feel that the unique, I won't call them challenges. The unique considerations of the industry are also the unique strengths. The one that always comes Immediately to mind is, is. Is the cultural diversity. I mean, I have met people from more countries, cultures, religions and backgrounds than I could even possibly remember, you know, and I can say, yes, no, please, thank you, and two beers in about seven languages. That's important, right? But it's amazing. And I just look around at our office here in London, you know, there's a South African, an Australian, a Russian, a Kiwi. There's just so many different people, so many experiences that you can tap into, so many backgrounds that you can hear about, so many cultures that you can learn about. That's just in one office. Then you get to go on a ship and actually travel around the world. It's amazing. And like I say, that's a huge strength because you get to tap into all that experience, that knowledge, that insight. But it also comes as a challenge, right? You then have a crew of 25 vessels. Sorry, a crew of 25 people on a vessel. Probably seven different languages there. So English is the globally recognized language of the industry. We talk and we do operational things in language, in the English language. But then when you come to kind of more of the social, softer side of things, you're building relationships and stuff. If, if there's kind of three cultural or linguistic groups on the vessel, you naturally, you subconsciously splinter into those groups. Right, I'm going to go and talk to the guy who speaks the same language and has the same interests. I like this guy. And we get on well when we're doing cargo work or whatever, but he's actually not the guy I'm going to go up the road with and have a beer with or play dominoes with in the messroom or whatever. And. And as. As the industry has grown, as the culture has become more diverse, that has had huge benefits, but also had some tangible negatives as well. You know, again, when I was at sea as a cadet, you were all British. You all spoke the same thing. We didn't have Internet, we didn't have Netflix, we didn't have FaceTime. Guess what we did on a Wednesday night? We all went to the mess room and we watched a movie on a Reel to Reel projector. Because that's what you did. That's how you bonded. That's how you got together socially. Sunday afternoon was pub lunch and you played board games. Now it is. It pains me, as an older generation, seafarers come up the gangway and the first thing they ask is, what's the WI FI password? And they come off watch and they go to their cabin and they FaceTime, their wives, and they do Netflix or whatever it is and the actual it. We're trying to push the onboard culture back, dare I say, back to the old days, encouraging things like game nights, movie nights, you know, doing things socially on the vessel, getting people, and this is very controversial, but getting people away from the technology. Connect with your shipmates, build those relationships on board. You know, have the trust, the relationship and the interaction with your colleagues on board the vessel, because that's ultimately in everyone's immediate benefit on the vessel. And then the kind of the connection back to the home and the family can, dare I say, be a secondary thing. So that's one consideration and then it's the nature of the business. Right. I've got 500 offices on the water and 60 offices on the land to worry about. And tomorrow those 500 offices on the water will not be where I left them yesterday. And some of the people that were in those offices won't be there tomorrow. So it's this constant change of location, legislation, compliance, people, competent skills backs. It's just a constant change that you have to be as much on top of as you could ever possibly could be at any given moment in any given day. And it is 365 days a year, 7 days a week, 24 hours a day. Seafarers do not tie the vessel up and go home at five o' clock in the evening. They don't go home for Christmas Day, they don't go home for Thanksgiving, they don't go home for Ramadan or Yom Kippur or any other religious festival. They are out there 24, 7, 365, hell or high water, delivering your Christmas presents. [00:46:01] Speaker A: Let's go back to talking about you then. We're going to come back into this industry. You mentioned early on you came like fifth generation artilleryman. [00:46:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:13] Speaker A: And this decision to go in a different direction now, I don't know if you were joking about it, about it being kind of a spicy conversation with your, with your dad, was it? [00:46:23] Speaker B: Yeah, because I didn't tell him until we pulled up outside the gates to Her Majesty's Naval Base, Portsmouth, and I said, you need to take a right here. And he said, why? So, yes, I know. I didn't tell him. I didn't tell him because it was a big thing. Right. But no, I mean, my dad and my grandpa were just so supportive of me. My grandfather, particularly my grandfather. When my grandfather left the army, he actually became an author and he had a lot of contacts in the publishing world. So when I got my acceptance letter and I was given this list. These are books that you need. My grandfather, I mean, the ink was still wet on the letter. My grandfather was out there tapping up every contact he had to get me these books, books, and he paid for them. You know, he was so proud of me going into becoming an officer cadet. He bought my books, he bought my compasses for doing chart work. He bought my parallel rules for doing chart work. So, and those are, those are all, all those books. And those tools are on the top shelf of my book, my bookshelf back home. Pride of place. Because my grandfather was a big influence in my life, as was my father, as is my father. He hasn't gone anywhere yet. But yeah, I mean, it was a spicy conversation. But being accepted and becoming an officer, I think took some of the edge off of it. He was pretty chuffed about that. [00:47:54] Speaker A: So you'd already, you'd traveled around the world as a kid with your dad because of his career. You were used to kind of being the new kid on the block, the new kid in the school. At some point along the way you get into Guns N Roses and you kind of get into Metallica and all this kind of speed metal. So you, you pretty early on were confident, going your own way. And then you make this choice to go your own way career wise and to not do the artilleryman, to actually go down a different branch. This is all leading me to a question that you're not going to see coming. Tell us about Star Wars. [00:48:30] Speaker B: Oh, my days. Star Wars. Where, where, where do I begin? I mean, it's, I, I, I. So I actually, you know what? I'm gonna get out of jail straight away. I'm gonna blame my dad straight away. My dad wanted to go and see Star Wars. I was not even one year old at the time. My dad wanted to go see Star wars at the cinema, but my mom was working that night, so he had to take me. So I, so I went to season a Star wars when I was seven months old, I think with my dad, literally babe in arms. He then took me to the cinema to see Empire and he then took me to the cinema to see Jedi. So I kind of grew up right in the late 70s and early 80s. You just couldn't escape from it, you know. Star wars was everywhere. So I kind of usually grew up with it. And then when, when I went to college, when I went to see, there was a couple of my buddies, Gareth and Tony, particularly big Star wars fans. We were kind of sci fi nerds. Our other close friend Gav was, was a Trekkie. So you know, we would pick on him three on one. But it's okay, he was a big guy. So we kind of. So then in the, in the, in the mid to late 90s, kind of made by my nerdism was, was refreshed going to college and meeting guys with shared interests. And then of course in 99 the new movies came out, so it's kind of always been there in one degree or another. And then a guy I was at sea with, strangely enough, he, he. He was talking to me one day about Star wars and he said, oh yeah, well, you know, I, I like to troop. And I was like, what does that mean? And then that was like the gateway. [00:50:13] Speaker A: He. [00:50:14] Speaker B: He took me into a rabbit hole that I never even knew existed and into. And yeah, but just. Yeah, fixated. Fixated man. And spent. Spend the best part of the year building my own stormtrooper armor to become a, a Lucasfilm approved and licensed sand trooper. Trooping a very. Yeah, yeah, trooping at events around the world raising money for great charity. So there's an organization called the 501st Legion that is the global stormtrooper play date gang, if you want to call it whatever you want to call it. But, but they go to lots of events globally every year and they raise millions of dollars every year for Make a Wish. So doing things for critically ill kids, raising money, providing toys, providing experiences for kids that really, really need it. And it's, it's an amazing thing to do for those kids. It's an amazing thing to do. Personally, my wife and I got to troupe at one of the, one of the movie premieres in Abu Dhabi. It's just a very, very cool club of nerds that do very, very cool stuff for kids who very much deserve it. [00:51:39] Speaker A: First of all, I love this part of your story. I hope you don't mind me bringing it up. [00:51:45] Speaker B: It's too late now, right? No, but everybody who knows me knows this, so. Yeah, by all means, by all means. [00:51:53] Speaker A: I love this part of your story, but I'm going to, I'm going to go into some deep stuff with you now. Why stormtroopers? Because they're, they're. They're like the bad guys. So why stormtroopers? [00:52:08] Speaker B: They are cool. They are cool. They are cool. I mean, you know the, that they're kind of one of the first things you see, you know, in your first movie. They're storming through that bulkhead. They're shooting rebel scum left, right, and center, they're blowing stuff up. They got massive ships, they got Death Star. You get to hang out with Darth Vader. They get to ride do backs in the desert on Tatooine. They're cool. We can't shoot, we can't hit anything, but we look cool while we're doing it. [00:52:41] Speaker A: Okay. The reason I bring this up, outside of it just being an awesome part of your story is you are. And of course, anyone listening to this, unless they know you, they're just going to have to take my word for it. You're one of the most moral leaders. Like, I get to interact with a lot of very senior leaders across all sorts of industries. And almost to a person there's some version of this, but you are an extremely, extremely ethical, really moral, really people centered person. You care about the right thing so much. And it has been such a part of our conversation that I always think it's kind of funny that like in your, in your part time and you're in your playtime, you're like, you know, the bad guy, but in real life, you're like hyper focused on the right thing. And just this, this juxtaposition is something I find fascinating about you. [00:53:40] Speaker B: Well, firstly, thank you. It's extremely humbling what you say. Yeah, it is interesting. I think you. If I reflect back actually on the 501st Legion, kind of their unofficial strap line is, you know, bad guys doing good. And I think it is. It's really, it's, it is, it's. But it's a perverse satisfaction at the end of the day that, you know, you've spent a day doing, you know, whatever it is. You're at Star wars celebration in Anaheim. You spent the day trooping around with your buddies, looking awesome, scaring kids, scaring, you know, people that are coming to the convention, getting photos taken with famous people doing cool stuff, you know, being a baddie. And you raised a crapload of money for kids who need it and families who need it. And it's. That's kind of like, doesn't matter, man. You're. I could be Darth Vader. I could be Boba Fett. I could be a trooper. I could be an imperial officer. People think I'm terrible. You know, all the rebel scum have been shouting at me all day. But this is what we do, man. And it's, it's super awesome. It's super cool. And I'm sorry, man, but the little kids love it, man. The little kids running, grabbing your legs and having your photo taken and the big kids as well. The big kids as well. It's cool, man. It gives you a buzz. And then another people get a buzz off. It's, it's, it's very cool thing to do. [00:54:58] Speaker A: Yeah. So I'm going to take this a little bit further, but very comfortable being an outsider from like a new kid on the block basically into speed metal, into this interesting hobby that's like unique and kind of has this dark side of it. And then also you enjoy in your, in your like spare time also you love just being off the grid in the middle of literally nowhere and just finding your, your way, right? [00:55:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I think for the record, I like all sorts of music. Okay. It's not just Speedmaster. Speedmail's up there. But I got a big record collection. I, I think I even, I own some Luther Vandross as well. But moving on. [00:55:47] Speaker A: There you go. There you go. I'm not trying to pigeonhole you. I'm. I'm just giving you an interesting contrast of your, your enjoyment of being like out at sea or like out in the wilderness and kind of like away from, away from the world. And then your, your draw to kind of like more outsider kind of edgy stuff, but then also your ultra deep connection to people, to doing things together, to doing the right thing. I find it like a fascinating juxtaposition and I, I don't want to like be reductive and simplify you to these two things, but it's, it's something that always stands out to me about you, I think. [00:56:25] Speaker B: It's. Just, I don't know. In my, in my humble opinion, there is nothing like being grounded in nature to, to ground yourself, to put yourself into perspective, to put the world into perspective. You know, I put great stock in being in nature. And like you say, you and I have spoken a lot about this. You know very well I love going out for a walk with my dog. Just going down the river, you know, just. I'll just go for a 20 minute walk down the river. We'll see kingfishers, otters, fish, ducks, whatever it is. That, that's great. You know, the, the, the greatest holiday I've ever had. My wife and I spent 10 days in Northern California going to Yosemite Sequoia, being in the middle of nowhere, seeing the most amazing sights that the Mother Nature could throw at us, you know, and just being like you say, being in that moment connected to nature, putting things into perspective, being able to decompress and process your own thoughts with that kind of rationalization around you, if that's the right term, term to use, there is nothing like it. And then certainly any honest seafarer will tell you there is nothing so humbling as being at sea. Whether. Whether she is glass, calm or raging at you, the sea is the most humbling place in the world to be. [00:57:52] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. So with all of this stuff, all of this backstory that we've gotten to you today, what's the most challenging part of the job for you and what's the coolest part of the job for you? [00:58:07] Speaker B: Both the same thing. Connecting with my peers, my stakeholders, my teams within VShips, making those relationships, keeping those relationships working, whether that's with me or between other stakeholders or across peer groups. Enabling, realizing, succeeding in all of that work internally to produce the product and the service for our customers. It's a challenge because like I say, we got 60 offices in multiple times, those multiple cultures onshore, plus the 500 offices moving around the world, tying all of that together, keeping all of that going safely, securely, compliantly, doing all of that in a manner that keeps our customer happy, enables them to succeed in their commercial activities and enables them to be safe and compliant, enables them to win more work, have a better reputation. That's what it's all about, man. That's what I'm here doing. Not quite 24, 7, 365, but damn close to it. It's a challenge, it's demanding, it's exacting. There is virtually zero margin for error internally or with our customers or with our stakeholders. But it is so rewarding when it, when it clicks, when it comes together, when, when, when you see that big win get across the line, man, is. It is amazing. It is amazing. And like I say, when you see a guy in Chennai talking to a guy in Norway, relying on a guy in China to help a vessel in Australia, and that happens, mate, that is gold. That's absolutely golden. [00:59:59] Speaker A: So here I'm going to ask you, like some binary questions. Like, so, like a yay or nay. Like you've got a. I want to. I don't want to go down the middle here. Do you think this industry is always going to require human beings? [01:00:18] Speaker B: Yes, we are. We are making strides towards automation. But I just think it's. And it's not necessarily the industry, it's where the industry interfaces. And I'll give you a very real example. There's a lot of conversation at the moment about nuclear. You know, the industry wants to decarbonize, we want to be green. There are a number of Transition fuels and transition technologies out there, but ultimately small modular nuclear reactors, that's kind of like a no brainer, right? We can take this thing, we can put it into a vessel and that vessel will now operate for 30 years with 0 emissions, apart from some hot water. But that requires human interface. No, I don't think there is any government, no matter how forward thinking or liberal or innovative they are, I don't think there's any government or state in the world that is going to let an autonomous nuclear vessel sail up to New York or London or Tokyo. There's going to be, there is a, I think there's a deep ingrained human need to want that human interaction, sense of comfort, peace of mind element. So I just don't think we will ever get away from having humans in the workspace interface, as it were. I think we will get to massively reduced crew and operational sizes. And that's happened in my lifestyle. That's, you know, container ships 30 years ago were 30 people, today they're 20 people. So you know, we will have to right size the number of humans and human interfaces in the industry. But I just don't see us ever being 100% autonomous. [01:02:12] Speaker A: The second question, keeping it in a binary, do you think that shipping will stay ish in the like 80, 90% of, of all things that we're touching in a day, do you think it will stay the primary mechanism for us to get goods across the world? [01:02:30] Speaker B: Yes. [01:02:31] Speaker A: So with both those questions in mind, if you were speaking to an 18 year old or a 16 year old or a 22 year old, is this industry, whether going out to sea or being part of the infrastructure around it, is that a good career choice for a young person thinking about what's next? [01:02:51] Speaker B: Yes, yes, it absolutely is. We're not going anywhere. We're not going anywhere. And as, as vessels become more complex, the technologies on them become more complex, as new and different players come into the maritime industry, those are all going to require new skill sets, new abilities, new outlooks, new blood. So absolutely there is, there is an opportunity here and there will be for many, many, many years to come. And I think the most interesting element of it is maybe the roles on board the vessels won't change so much. It's the opportunities when you make that transition from the vessel to the shore, if you want to do that. Of course there will always be people who want to be a captain and they will spend all of their career at sea being a captain, super fine. But there are now opportunities onshore that didn't exist five years ago, you know, with the inventor. As we go, as we become more digital, as we bring new energy and new propulsion technologies online, we've got to write the legislation around that, we've got to build the training courses around that, we've got to have the skill sets to deliver it, etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. So the industry is perhaps it's a little slower than other industries to evolve and mature, but it is still evolving and maturing. And as I say, there are opportunities, career paths, pipelines today that did not exist five years ago and frankly probably couldn't be filled by a seafarer from 25 years ago. So there is always new and exciting opportunity in the industry along with the, dare I say, the traditional opportunity of being an engineer, being a navigator. [01:04:42] Speaker A: The reason I'm asking is, you know, there's a lot of conversation about what should people be studying in the university now or what should they be thinking about. And there's a big return to the idea that the trades are actually one of the most bulletproof careers that people could have because it's not something that's going to go to AI. It's not something that is going to be easily recognized or ever in, in many ways. And it's so interesting because like, you know, the trades, I mean, my father was a water engineer and really good with his hands, could like build almost anything. Just like an interesting guy. Traveled all over the world a lot of what you're talking about, like he spoke like six languages fluently and he was just a guy they'd parachute into places to bring water to situations. Like really, really interesting guy. And he gave me, one of the many things that he gave me that I really value was a deep respect for, for tradespeople. And it's so interesting now that the more technological we're getting, there's this huge return to the trades are really stable in the future. So just. Any thoughts on that before? I keep going with that? [01:05:56] Speaker B: No. You know, it is still, and again will be for many, many years to come. It is still a practical industry. And if you think about engineers, I mean, being a navigator arguably is perhaps a poor career choice because there's not a lot of navigating required in many other industries. I mean, I mean, I pride myself on my chart work, but it has been redundant for 25 years. So. But if you go, if you go into, if you come into the industry as an engineer, as an engineering cadet or an electrical technical officer, then you can do stuff here in the industry. And then go off and do other things and, and you learn those trades, you learn those transferable skills and then you then, then you can go on to onshore jobs in the industry or in parallel industries or in completely different industries. And, and I think the trades are so critical. They are so critical because, you know, I'm sorry, but the, the best AI in the world cannot pick up a spanner and stop a leaking valve, it can't fix an aircraft, it can't keep a vessel safely at anchor, etc. Etc. Those require manual skills, manual experts, people with, with the, with the tradesmanship and the craftsmanship to do a really good job really well every time. [01:07:16] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, I view the trades as kind of being some of the most, most of the sound investment, like one of the most sound investments that people could, could make in their careers going forward. And not, certainly not that there aren't other, many great careers. But even if you think of what I do or if you think about therapy, most people that I spoke to today would, if I said to them, hey, would you allow yourself to do like serious therapy? Serious, like long term therapy with AI? Most people, I believe, would say no. But if you were someone who grew up with AI being a real thing and a good, more advanced version of it than we have now, that wouldn't even be a question. So I could see a time where there is a decision point where people are like, oh, do you want a human therapist or a human coach? Or do you want an AI coach? And that I think is maybe two generations away of people. So I certainly won't be here anymore, but maybe I will, I don't know, but we'll see what happens. But like in the, in the not too distant future, I think that's possible. But will we, with any kind of realistic speed, get to a place where they would have an autonomous ship, completely autonomous ship? It doesn't sound like it. [01:08:36] Speaker B: I think it's really, and it's one of the things I, if I had to be a little critical of the industry. It is coming back to my other comment. It is that we are too slow to adapt and adopt. You know, and here in V over the last 18 months, we've taken a real deep focus on how we, how do we engage what I refer to terribly, flippantly as the TikTok generation. We've got a whole generation of people now that if they cannot learn something in a 45 second video, that they don't want to learn it, you know, but our industry still insists on putting These people on a course for six days, they've switched off after day one. They could go on YouTube and learn this in 25 minutes for free. So we've got to adapt and we've got to adopt the right technologies to, to attract younger people. You know, hey, and it's, there's going to be a blend of, you know, there's a bit of AI, there's some video learning, remote learning, practical learning. It's going to be a mix of all this stuff. But we've got to be much faster at getting that into use and into practice in the industry in order to attract the next generation of CFED or next generations of seafarers. And then when it, when it comes to AI, we're not escaping it. It isn't going anywhere. And I know there's talk in recent weeks that the AI bubble is going to burst, etc. [01:09:54] Speaker A: Etc. [01:09:54] Speaker B: Okay, fine, the dot com bubble burst, but dot com is still here, right? So maybe the AI bubble will burst, but then maybe we'll get a clearer playing field of what AI can and should actually do for us. And then we can actually have some clear kind of use cases and practicalities of how do we deploy it to help our seafarers not replace them, but help them, enhance them, supplement them. And then we're just not going to get away from, from, from manned vessels. I think, and I know certainly I recall back in the day, I think an operator in Japan had this concept where they would have like a mothership with four drone ships following. So they would, this, this mothership would effectively have two crews on board. So if there was a problem on one of the drone ships, this, one of the crews could be helicoptered over to go fix it, deal with it or whatever. Great concept. But ultimately there's still 40 guys in the ship at the front, right? There's still a pair of hands there to pick up a spanner or pick up a chart or flick the switch or whatever it may be. Maybe we'll have, maybe we'll have something around that or maybe in lower risk into coastal shipping, we might be able to go fully autonomous. But I think when it comes to big deep sea, big cargo being moved between states, between continents, between governments, there is still going to be a need for skilled, experienced, expert craftsmen, seafarers, certainly into the future that I can see. [01:11:23] Speaker A: So back to you. My earlier comment, you being really deeply principled, really ethical guy, really, really care about it. What's been the biggest challenge of that in working in this industry? [01:11:41] Speaker B: It's Not a challenge. It is. I would say it's. It's a responsibility. It is the weight of the people on your shoulders. So at any given time here in V, we have nearly 30,000 people out there in our offices, in our work sites, on our vessels. That's a lot of weight to go to bed with every night, because I want to wake up every morning and know that those 30,000 people are still in exactly the same health and welfare and wellbeing that I left them the night before. And I take that deeply, personally, right or wrong, you know, so everything that I can do, everything that my teams can do, everything that our stakeholder groups, our peer groups can do to make sure that we start tomorrow the same way we started, we ended last night. That. That's the. That's the big thing, right? That's the big thing. Because unfortunately, it does go wrong. You know, this is a contact industry. We have people interfacing with heavy machinery, interfacing with heavy cargo, doing difficult tasks and difficult environmental conditions, working with hazardous chemicals. Things unfortunately go wrong despite everything we possibly can do. And when it does go wrong, that burden weighs heavy. The burden does weigh heavy. So, you know, that's something that I steal myself for every day. It is something I take deeply, deeply, seriously and deeply, deeply, personally, because I want people to reflect on their time with V ships as a good thing. I went there, I did a good job, I worked safely, they paid me well, they got me home on time, and I'm now spending time back home with my loved ones in good health and good merriment, and I want to go back to V ships and do it all over again. And that's. That's. That's the. That's the real way. That's the real way. [01:13:36] Speaker A: All right, so we're heading into what we call the crucial three, which is going to be three questions that end off our interview that are going to increase in difficulty. [01:13:46] Speaker B: Oh, God. [01:13:49] Speaker A: Before we get there, though, is there anything you want to share? Any questions you want to ask me? Anything you want to put out there? [01:13:55] Speaker B: No. Again, I reiterate, you know, thank you again for the opportunity to speak. As you say, this is a. This is an industry that I am deeply, deeply passionate about for many, many reasons. And it is an industry that doesn't. Doesn't get enough coverage and doesn't get enough consideration. So if only one person sits down on Christmas Eve and looks at their presence and goes, thank you, Mr. Seafarer, then, then I will consider this mission achieved. [01:14:22] Speaker A: All right, so anything Else you want to say before we go into the crucial three? [01:14:26] Speaker B: No, let's go for it. [01:14:28] Speaker A: Okay, so the first one is a fun one. It. It will probably be easy, but you might have to pick from a lot of things out at sea. I'm talking like CC Deep out there. What's the craziest natural thing that you have ever seen? [01:14:44] Speaker B: I'll say it. I'm being recorded. I'll say it. But I believe I have seen a ufo. [01:14:48] Speaker A: I was hoping you were going to say that. Can you tell us about it? [01:14:53] Speaker B: Literally in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, early hours in the morning. I think I would have been on the 4 to 8 watch. So this is maybe like 5, 6 o' clock in the morning. The sun is just coming up. Myself and my watch keeper at the time, a gentleman Kuber, Eddie, I remember him well as a West Ham fan. Love that guy to bits. We were on the bridge. We were staring at sea. We were heading east. Yeah. Get my bearings. We were heading east, talking crap. Nothing out there. Middle of the Pacific Ocean, nothing around. And we were stood there. And I was stood in front of the radar. Eddie was stood next to me. And the whole radar screen wobbled like an old tv. Like a wobble. Went really well. Weird reset. And then the radar from the bottom of the screen to the top of the screen went yellow and a single bright white light went overhead and over the horizon in less than a second. And when it disappeared over the horizon, the radar reset and everything was fine. And Eddie and I looked at each other and when. We won't tell anybody about this, it was the weirdest, weirdest thing I've ever seen. But I mean, I'm in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, so you have to appreciate how far away the horizon actually is. So for something to go overhead and over the horizon in less than a second, that is like space, Space shuttle speed. Not even, Even faster than the International Space Station. [01:16:17] Speaker A: You definitely saw. You definitely saw like one. [01:16:20] Speaker B: 100% it was there any. If you're out there, if you see this, I don't know, but back me up, man. But that's what we saw. I'll say no more or less than that. [01:16:29] Speaker A: Anyone who knows me personally knows my deep belief in aliens and that aliens are in the ocean or someone or something is in the ocean. But also I believe in aliens. And they might be the same thing, but that's a later conversation. I'm super psyched you saw that. Okay, second question. What is a piece of feedback that you have gotten As a leader that you took, worked on and completely have addressed. Now, it can't be something like, oh, I'm still working on it. I mean, you got the feedback, you did the work, and now, now you've operationalized. It's just part of who you are. [01:17:10] Speaker B: Don't ask anyone to do anything you haven't done yourself. And that was something that was taught to me, probably even day one. I see. You know, if you're, if you're, if you're a leader of people, you got to have that inherent understanding. You've got to have, you know, got muddy, got bloody, whatever it is. But, but understand what you're asking people to do. Deeply know what it is you are asking them to go away and do and expose themselves to and the results that are expected at the back end of it. Because you just, particularly when you're in a heavy industry, you're asking people to do dangerous stuff. You just got zero credibility unless you've been there and you've, you know, you've walked the walk. So, yeah, now I would say that that is something that I, that I, that I live by today. You know, I will, I will go and play around with AI bots in my spare time so that I understand what it is, what it does, what it doesn't do. So I can then have a robust conversation with our IT team about why I think the IT bot they're developing should be different or work different, or give different answers. And similarly, I'm not going to criticize somebody for not raising an incident report if I myself haven't done a bloody good incident report. Root and branches in my previous life, so. And everything in between. I think you gotta, yeah, you gotta be able to walk the walk. Right. [01:18:35] Speaker A: All right, last one. And I. I'm gonna preface this by I'm going to. I'm going to be a little cautious with how I ask this because I don't mean. I don't mean this in. I'm not trying to ask a question that's, that's sensationalizing anything, but I am interested in things in the shipping industry that would be on the illegal side of things. So. I mean, of course, classically, people think of like piracy or any of those things, but what I also mean is you'd mentioned something to me before. I believe you referred to it as like a black ship or dark ship. Yeah. Like, what can you share with us about the. I guess the, the shipping that falls outside of the normally accepted commercial legal boundaries of things. [01:19:23] Speaker B: Yeah, it is, it is. A It is a very sad but real truth of the 21st century that there is a, or we refer to as a dark fleet or dark fleet. It's not kind of one puppet master pulling all the strings, but it is a number of fleets out there carrying sanctioned cargoes and doing illicit things. And it's a very real, very big threat, not just to the industry, but to the globe. And actually, I was just reading a story yesterday or the day before a dark fleet vessel is just washed up on the beach, I think, in Bulgaria. It's a dark fleet vessel. It's kind of all illegally shadily registered. It's carrying sanctioned cargo from one sanctioned entity to another sanctioned entity. The crew are being asked or made to work in very unsafe conditions with probably not getting paid on time. All of this terrible, terrible stuff. The vessel gets into trouble, and because of all this stuff, she can't get genuine spares. She can't be insured by reputable insurers. She can't be inspected by reputable manufacturers representatives. All of this, it's like owning a stolen car, right? If you have a stolen Toyota, you cannot take it to the Toyota dealership to get it repaired. You got to go to the dodgy backstreet mechanic who probably does a dodgy backstreet mechanic job. And then you know you're not getting insured. And then you're driving down the freeway and the wheel comes off 100 mile an hour. That's not a good place to be. This is. This is the risk that the dark fleet presents to the world. And now we have a tanker, a fully laden tanker washed up on a beach in Bulgaria because she's a dark fleet vessel. She broke down, she got in trouble. The crew abandoned ship. They're long gone. Bulgaria now is a fully laden tanker washed up on its beaches. And this is one vessel out of hundreds. We know there are hundreds of vessels out there. In the last couple of years, this has been a kind of a growth industry of digital organizations who are able to kind of go under the scenes and find and track these vessels. They turn off their tracking hardware and software so they just disappear. And then they reappear thousands of miles away now fully laden with. With cargo that has mysteriously appeared on board. The crew are working in unsafe conditions. Dare I say that they're almost treated like slaves. You know, you will go on board for six months and we'll pay you at the end of the six months, and maybe you'll only get paid if everything goes right. So it presents a huge Risk to life. It presents a huge risk to the environment. It presents a huge reputational risk to everybody in the industry who is doing the right thing. And it presents a huge risk to every, every maritime stakeholder in the literal space that has a coast, has a port, has shipping lanes just going by it. You know, one of these things could break up, blow up, wash up on your beach tomorrow, and you then have to deal with that problem despite the fact that you are completely oblivious to what is happening. [01:22:41] Speaker A: So when you told me about this and, and why I wanted to touch on this in the end is when we, when we were hanging out, there was so much stuff that you said, or I was like, damn, I would never have thought of that. Like, I would never have considered that. I find the whole industry mostly like all of the incredible parts, like, whoa, totally fascinating, but also this illicit part where it's like, oh my God, like the ocean is gigantic. Like, there's so much stuff that's going on that isn't regulated, that isn't controlled, that isn't, that isn't really understood that you'd actually have to be in the industry and even not even just on the periphery of the industry, like actually in, in the industry to actually understand. So just from your perspective, as, you know, we move forward and we're more interconnected and all these things, is that the kind of thing that's going to naturally become impossible to do or does it actually just remain static and is actually always going to be able to. The cracks? [01:23:42] Speaker B: I, I don't think we will ever be able to eradicate it. You know, and look, there, there are, in any industry, there are always people who work in the gray and the black areas. And, and that it's just part of life. I think that, that the digitization, the interconnectivity, the automation, the speed of communication and information these days, it makes it a lot more difficult. And it comes down to tolerance. And I think tolerance comes with education. The more that the global population understands the industry and what is good and what is bad, the more people appreciate a 9 out of 10 presence under your Christmas tree, the more people are then prepared to stand up and go, you know what? Actually, no, no, we're not going to tolerate this. We will lobby our government to do something about this. We will speak to our lawmakers and we will, dare I say, we will lobby Amazon. You know, hey, you want our business? Pick, pick shipping companies that are legitimate, that are energy efficient, that are considering the global footprint, you know, and, and I think there's There's a whole. There's a whole kind of chain of relationships that we can pull on and play on to make things better, from the consumers through to the supply chain through to the lawmakers and then ultimately the operators as well. And I think the louder that. That. That that public voice becomes, the harder it is to ignore. Right. The lawmakers have to be seen to be doing something, and then. Then you start to really come down hard on. On the people that want to play in the margins, playing the dark spaces. And look, I'm not. I. I am not, and nor can I be naive. This is. This is an oversimplification of a very complex situation, and there are lots of global and socioeconomic issues at play here. But like I say, the more light we shine on it, the more conversations we have about it, the more that Joe and Jane public are aware of this issue, the more open and transparent conversations we can have and the more we can do to improve the spaces and bring the light to what the industry is doing. Like I say, we are carrying 90% of the world's trade. We are doing good things. We are pioneering innovative energy transition technologies. We are pioneering, you know, all sorts of diversity initiatives and. And things in the industry that just go under the radar because people aren't looking at the industry. And unfortunately, it's the bad stuff that makes the press, right? It is the ship on the beach in Bulgaria. It is the ship getting hit by missiles from the Houthis. It is the ship getting seized by pirates off of Somalia or West Africa. And the good stuff that the industry does, perhaps we ourselves take it a bit for granted and we're not doing enough to promote it. But certainly there isn't enough. There isn't enough media, global media coverage on what we are achieving to enable and continue global trade and global socioeconomic stability. [01:26:50] Speaker A: I mean, awesome. Super awesome. And thank you. Because I know that was, like, a big, very difficult question, and I really want to acknowledge, as you said, it's a very big question. And we're. We're not intending to oversimplify something that can be, like, very, very complex, but you gave a very strong answer. So thank you. Anything else you want to add? [01:27:14] Speaker B: No, again, just thank you for everything around and thank you to the team at Cadence for this opportunity and for all the great conversations we've had over the last 18 months. And long may they continue. Long may they continue. [01:27:26] Speaker A: Yeah, man, you rock. Is, do you want to point us to anything? Anyone who can look you up or look up the company or look up anything that you might be thinking about being a mariner or any of those things. [01:27:38] Speaker B: No, I mean, look, I don't do social media other than LinkedIn, so by all means, anybody who's watching this, you know, please look me up on LinkedIn, drop me a message on there. You can go and look at our group website, which is V Group. And then everything about vgroup is that is on there. And I must say, probably I should stress as well that V Group is, is not just V ships. We provide marine services as well through our V Services brand. So we provide catering, travel services, repair supply, logistics, ship management, crew management, crew supply. You know, we really are a true maritime partner in progress for anybody who is interested in or connected to the maritime space. So go to the website, look us up, hook me up on LinkedIn, drop me messages. I'm more than happy to help. And, and whether you want to become a seafarer, whether you want to become an auditor, whether you want to go and learn how to cook in our oceanic catering school in the Philippines, we got it. We got literally 1001 jobs. And more than glad to hear from people who want to hear more about us. [01:28:40] Speaker A: Heck yeah, man. Thank you so much. I'm a big, big fan of V Group. I known, I know many of the senior leadership. Wonderful to a person and it's been an honor working with all of you, walking alongside you, you Rockman specifically. It's been tons of fun. Thanks for being on the podcast, everyone. I hope you got as much out of this as as I did. Mike was on the other end of my screen, like typing questions that he wanted me to ask because he found the whole thing so fascinating. And I'll just say at the end of the day, those big ships in the harbor, if you're in a port town like I am, or those things that are under your Christmas tree, they do come from a lot of dedication, passion, blood, sweat and tears from people out there. So everyone just maybe give some thanks for that when your spare time. And with that, we will see you next time on One Step Beyond. Take care, everybody.