Episode Transcript
[00:00:04] Speaker A: All right, let's. Let's. Let's get back to your work because I'm real interested in kind of not closing the loop, but kind of bringing that part of the punk hardcore story in. So, you know, you do the bands thing or whatever, and then you're working at this real estate company. You get this like, crazy opportunity and you decide to take a leap. You're going back into music, which is cool, but you're doing it as an assistant, which I would imagine that's like, well, what does that even look like? But also with music, that. And correct me if I'm wrong, you didn't have a huge background in country music, is that correct?
[00:00:39] Speaker B: No, none more. I mean, I was still playing at the time. My.
The band that I was kind of in the longest was more of like a post hardcore heavier band called Stavesaker, which was more of like a drop D kind of of riff rock, melodic band.
And so we did a lot of records. And so we were still technically playing at that time, but we had all, you know, started families and gotten married and needed consistent jobs. And so it was more of like a weekend thing or maybe a fly date thing at the time and probably would have still been kind of hanging on to that as my identity. My identity a little bit, but just knew that, you know, being an office manager for a real estate company and having my. What essentially was like kind of a bowling league band wasn't guiding me towards any profession or any kind of like, next step for me professionally or for my family. You know, I had owned a record store. I had, you know, been a music supervisor. I had done all of the little things along the way in music, but hadn't really made a decision in terms of what I was going to do professionally.
And I didn't know that this was it at the time.
It was just a better opportunity and kind of a change of pace too. I think you reach that point where I've been grinding it out with this band and now I'm in a job that isn't super fulfilling. This is a big life shakeup, you know, let's move across the country and try something completely different. And so we did.
And I had no idea what, you know, I knew what being an assistant was like in movies.
You know, you just kind of do whatever your boss tells you to do, whether that's coffee or bagels or, you know, what I had. That was the extent of my knowledge, you know, And I knew that I would be able to kind of support him because I understood Being a creative and being an artist, you know, so it's like, maybe I have a little insight in how to help.
That might be different than just hiring like a kid out of college or something like that.
[00:03:04] Speaker A: What I'm interested in here, because I want to get into the next part. You were just touching about, like, how you figured out how to do it. But when you're like, oh, yeah, you know, I. It's life. Shake up, try things. But think how many people you know personally, professionally, or how many people you've met who don't do that, who sit in that job and they don't take that big leap and they don't take that big risk. And maybe they just never even get offered that risk or they weren't in the right kind of situations. Like yours was such a, like. Kind of like right person, right time you happen to know someone.
But I do believe that a lot of people have some kind of moment of truth where they're like, gotta make a decision. And they might not even realize it at the time, how big it could be.
So you took a leap of faith and you moved across the country, moved your family across the country, went into it, into an industry that you were a part of, but you weren't a part of it, like, professionally. Like, you were just. You went into, like an industry professionally for the first time with a person you barely know and music that you don't have a background with, in a position that you didn't know. Know that, to me sounds like something that would be very daunting for people. So were you able to do that because that's who you are? Or were you able to do that because you learned that kind of thinking from punk, of punk and hardcore?
Or was it just like life circumstances pushed you there?
[00:04:30] Speaker B: All three?
You know, I mean, I think that, like, I can figure this out.
This is kind of a combination of things that I'm familiar with, but maybe might be a different execution that comes from punk and hardcore. Like, I'll figure it out. Like, this is music in a broader sense. I've done that. I've figured out how to put out records, how to book tours, how to do everything for myself up until this point. I'll just kind of apply that to whatever new challenges I see in this current situation.
I think it is my personality a little bit pro and con to just kind of try something and kind of stick to it, you know, to my. I mean, in other jobs, you know, to my detriment.
And then it was also, at the time it was more money than I was making in the other job. Like, it was a real practical decision for my family.
Like, this is a better salary with benefits.
This is a better opportunity.
So to answer your question, it's all three, for sure.
And I think that the percentage of which part probably changed on any given day.
[00:05:49] Speaker A: Totally. Totally.
So when you took the job, what was natural for you? Like, what were you able to be like, oh, yeah, like, I've got enough experience with the creative side of things, or being an artist, like, no problem. What was comfortable? But then what was what we can call uncomfortable learning. Not because it was, like, bad, or you were learning about bad things, but it was stuff where you're like, whoa, this is totally alien to me. And it was difficult to master.
[00:06:14] Speaker B: The part that I brought with me from everything that I had done in the past was being collaborative, being a good listener first and then a good communicator because of that listening and just the willingness to try. Like, the job was a support role, so I needed to learn what support would be the most valuable. So I had to learn. You know, I always say I kind of became a student of Zach, and that was. That was a lot of listening. You know, that was sitting back and watching how things operated, getting the landscape of who all of the existing resources were and how they fit together. You know, I mean, he had kind of those more obvious roles that every musician has, but he also had multiple businesses and a lot of different interests. And so I. I just listened a lot. And people had mentioned that after the fact, you didn't, like, just try and jump in and do something before you knew what the need was. And so I was always kind of, like, on deck, observing what was going on, learning the personalities, learning who did what. I mean, you should see the way I put people in my phone at first, because I didn't know that those roles existed.
You know, it's my maybe second time on a tour bus, you know, and all of a sudden, there's all these people that help that have these jobs that I'm like, you know, it's like somebody brings breakfast, you know, and it's like, in my phone, it was like, Josh, food guy. You know, I didn't know he worked for the catering company. You know what I mean? Like, there.
And I think it's just like, how do I take the information at face value that I'm and assess quickly? You know, it's that adaptability that I also think goes back to, like, punk and hardcore, because you just have to pivot you know, band breaks down, you figure out how to get to the show, you know, the T shirt gets misprinted, you sell them anyway, you discount them, whatever it is, you know, there's that like, figure it out element to punk and hardcore that I think definitely to this day is still with me. And I think that realizing that I needed to learn my surroundings and learn what was necessary before I just dove in was one of the bigger strengths that I had, you know, because there was some simple, like, ask based stuff that was the highest need. It's like, okay, I need X, Y and Z this day.
Cool, I'll go do X, Y and Z. And beyond that, I'm going to see how everybody else in your life kind of fits to see if I can identify other ways to help, you know.
And the job just kind of grew from there. You know, we became friends and I learned what his preferences were, but I also tried to never speak for him so I could help someone else.
You know, another various team member, like, hey, I think he would prefer it if it was this way.
If we need a more definitive answer, we're going to need to get that from Zach.
But, you know, just kind of understanding how he liked to operate and what his goals were and then just kind of trying to help keep him on track initially and then the larger team as my role grew.
[00:09:49] Speaker A: So what were, what were the uncomfortable learnings, though? What were the things where you're like, oh, this is so hard for me to learn?
[00:09:56] Speaker B: I think I don't have a great answer for that. Just like, I don't think I'm still thinking about your prior question. I don't think I answered it well. I think I was a little bit vague.
I'm kind of mentioning like, concepts more than like tasks or expectations, but I don't know that I'm going to get a better answer on the fly.
I think managing my own time and figuring out when I needed to be available and when I could take care of my own life was something that I never did well from the very beginning. And I think that obviously looking back now, the fact that I wasn't good at that ended up being why the job grew the way that it was.
Because again, those were all my choices along the way of how that job was defined and how that role grew.
[00:10:59] Speaker A: So now having been like, very, very deep and for a very long time within another genre of music, outside of spending so much time in another one like punkin, hardcore is a very immersive community. Like, for all the reasons you Said it's like it's got a very get involved kind of thing. Like, hey, are you taking photos? Are you doing zines? Are you playing the band? Are you putting on shows, Are you booking tours? What are you doing to make this thing happen for all of us?
But now you spent a considerable amount of time in a different genre. Is there anything distinctly similar between the two of them outside of like people just liking music?
And is there anything distinctly different between the genres that you've experienced being in both those communities for long periods of time?
[00:11:43] Speaker B: I think something that's true for all music is the fact that it comes from a desire to do something creative and then to share a story with other people.
And so it's kind of like this is going to sound like an oversimplification too, but just songcraft, like you want to tell a story to a larger group of people, like through a creative medium. And so even though maybe punkin hardcore had multiple other maybe agendas even that went alongside that, at its core, still telling a story about a lifestyle, about a struggle, whatever it may be, that's true for every genre of music.
So I think that over time, and I love all kinds of music and still listen to a wealth of things now what I respond to is whatever that story is, whether it's a hip hop song, a hardcore song, a country song, more traditional singer, songwriter, whatever it may be, if that person is passionate about what they're saying and can craft a good story, then that's what I respond to as a listener and as a fan.
[00:13:09] Speaker A: Regardless of genre, is there anything distinctly different between one community to the other where you're like, oh no, these are real different things about them.
[00:13:20] Speaker B: It's probably grades of this. But I think that the biggest difference would be that punk and hardcore historically hasn't been about growing in more of an entertainment trajectory, which I think country music and most other forms of pop music, that's kind of part of it is how do you grow and how do you get bigger and grow your audience, sell more records, whatever it is. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think that punkin hardcore has already always had a really difficult time figuring out where they sit, you know, in.
In between message and commerce. And there isn't really another genre of music that struggles with that. You know, there are country people that have very specific ideas of how they want to present themselves and do have a lot of more like just different agendas that they want to share alongside their music and how they want to build their business and everything. But I think that just fundamentally that's the biggest difference between punk and hardcore in every genre of music.
But that was something that was like, oh, it's just this is. The goal is to get to this level and then grow that. That was immediately different.
[00:14:41] Speaker A: I'm very interested in your perspective. So now you've been involved in, in like very like professional, the professional side of music for a long period of time and you're in this different role but you're still totally connected to punk and hardcore. And what are your thoughts with the rise of you know, let's say a band like afi, but even now more kind of a modern sense, a band like Turnstile. Because these are bands that are actually, you know, they're, they're just huge bands at this point. So they've, they seem to escape. I don't know if escape is the right word, but they've redefined what it means to be punk and hardcore but also still, but also be actually successful as well. So what are your thoughts on that?
[00:15:27] Speaker B: I think it's intent, you know, I mean this Turnstile and Knocked Loose and a few others have maybe reached a level that no other punkin hardcore band prior has reached.
But this same conversation has been happening since Sick of It all or you know, any kind of the like the pro core bands or whatever. How big is too big? How much money is too much money?
Should you be able to support you and your family from playing this type of music? Like is that inherently counter to what punkin hardcore is about?
Personally, I would say no, because from what I don't know the guys in Turnstile, but from what I know of them is that what they're doing now is just a grown up version of what they set out to do.
Like I don't know that their ideals have changed or their goals socially or whatever have changed.
They've modified their music obviously, but they're still like straight up hardcore, like undeniable hardcore songs on the newest record, you know, there's a bunch of programming and also more, you know, almost electronic pop music on the record too.
But they still play hardcore music and they're still, they still believe the same things as far as I know. So they're still a hardcore band in my, in my estimation.
And whether they play for 10 people or 10,000 people, I don't think that that makes them less hardcore.
[00:17:12] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that Turnstiles through and through 100% a hardcore band. I think that they have redefined what's what's possible and they've, they've, they've escaped, I think a bit of the self imposed jail that, that creatively that hardcore can have. About like this is what hardcore sounds like. I think it's. They could go and do like electronic song or this or that, but it's all you can hear. It all comes from hardcore. And then there's also just some straight up hardcore and the way they carry themselves, do their business. I only know one of the people in the band and even that's like very like we just know each other a bit.
But I am, I find them to be hugely inspirational. Just in terms of like, that's so cool that you have helped this genre, help the whole genre kind of redefine what's possible. But also we'd be remiss if like, I mean AFI were forerunners of that. Like afi, even when they were within kind of more within the trappings of punk and hardcore, they were doing that like Davey Havoc was like, like bringing all. Like, well they were as a band, but Davey Havoc was bringing all sorts of stuff that like was challenging the norm while also staying well rooted in there, while also like trying different things. And they were huge forerunners to that. And then Knock Loose, this is like, I actually like legitimately love Knock Loose. Like I'll sit down and listen to Knock Loose and I like all the bands we just talked about. But Knock Loose is, it's a. They're a little bit like, I'd say just outside of the compass of what I would typically listen to in terms of hardcore. But I just think it's like well written, well executed, super sincere, like interesting, all of that. And like they're raw as hell, but they're humongous. Like all of these bands kind of redefining this genre that has, I think historically been in a self imposed creative jail is just really, really neat.
[00:18:58] Speaker B: I mean, I think what I would challenge any purist with is, well, what's the goal of punkin hardcore if. If you're trying to share what the ethos of the movement is, even aside from the music? Because you can argue genre and style till you're blown the face. Like, people have been challenging the definition of punkin hardcore from a musical standpoint since its inception.
But I think in terms of like whether or not a band should be of a certain size, I would say, well, what if the goal is to share hardcore music and the hardcore ethics with as big a group of people as possible, then Turnstile and Knock Loose are some of the Only bands to do it. AFI Hate Breed. You know, there's a lot of bands that fall in that kind of like, am I allowed to like them anymore? Have they somehow like betrayed what I have tied myself to? Like, I think you just have to ask yourself, what's the point of it all?
If we're all going to be self referential and share what we all believe with each other, then that movement is never going to grow or adapt or change or change anyone else.
[00:20:29] Speaker A: Yeah, and there's two bands that before we go into, we start heading towards the close here. There's two bands that I also want to put in there. Like you'd mentioned. Sick of It All.
Sick of It All, I often say, is the band that figured out how to do hardcore as a business without being shitheads about it 100%.
They really, oh, like, you can do this professionally but still stay totally like hardcore and come from like a punk place. And I think what they did for the genre, and you remember they got all sorts of shit about what they were doing and they stayed true to it. But they did that, of course, Agnostic Front, like all the things they did. But two bands that I really want to hit on is Earth Crisis and Strife.
And how remarkable what both of those bands did in a time where the Internet was. Of course, the Internet was the Internet, it was kind of emerging. But those bands became like legitimately huge. And I think people can look back at Earth Crisis and be like, oh yeah, they were. Earth Crisis was huge, but Strife was humongous. Like. And of course I know you know this intimately, but like, Strife for me is like one of those. Those bands where I can be like the way they did the band and started expanding their sound and played with other bands and weren't afraid to be creative. So shout out to Strife in general and of course to Earth, Grace, of South to Strife. But specifically I want to give a shout out to Andrew, who I was just talking to about that song Slipping. I was like, dude, give me the story behind Slipping. And we had this big long talk about it. I was like, that's sick. Nobody was doing stuff like that back then. So again, it's been a progression to get to a turnstile. And I don't think anyone's saying, like, I'm certainly not saying that Turnstile is a result of Strife, but you could just see all these bands that were constantly upping it over the years and Turnstile just being the band that's like kind of exploded out even further.
[00:22:25] Speaker B: I mean, it may not be a direct result.
But Strife would absolutely be a building block of why the doors are blown open for a band like Turnstile.
You know, I think, I mean, you nailed it. The fact that those guys were willing to play with bands that most hardcore bands would probably either be intimidated to open for or see as too outside of what they do, you know, it's like that's also a testament to how freaking good they were alive too.
Like they could get up and on stage in front of Sepultura and absolutely hold their own. Yeah, you know, it started.
Strife, I think is a direct result of Sick of It All.
Like, I think Sick of It all would have been that like high water mark that everybody was like, oh, you can be really, really good and be a hardcore band. You know. And I remember, you know, Strife was the first banned out of like our crew. Like they have full stacks, you know, it's like they sounded so huge like immediately at a time that like, that wasn't a thing.
You know what I mean?
[00:23:46] Speaker A: No, dude, like 100.
[00:23:49] Speaker B: Sonically, they leveled up immediately. And I think that is what opened the doors for them to even go out and play with those other bands because they were so damn good live.
[00:23:59] Speaker A: Still are totally and still all about it. I encourage anyone listening to this who. Who either loves punk and hardcore and is part of the community or is listening to this and they're. They're. They're not. Go back in YouTube, on YouTube and go back and look at Strife videos from that era. So you're talking like kind of like the mid, mid to late 90s, absolute bedlam. Like some of the craziest stuff.
[00:24:25] Speaker B: Snap Case would be another one to put in that kind of like broadening what, you know. Those Victory bands really blew open the doors, man.
[00:24:35] Speaker A: They did, man.
[00:24:36] Speaker B: Love them or hate them, Tony was onto something in terms of marketing and how to grow all of those bands fan bases because he did it. It wasn't one band that did it independently of the other for, you know, they all like that California Takeover thing. Like them all kind of progressing as a unit, I think was really, really smart too.
You want to look at the more like nerdy marketing part of it. Like, I think that was really smart the way that they did that together.
[00:25:06] Speaker A: And toured together totally well. And that they can still do those shows like 20 Years later and call them the California Takeover.
[00:25:14] Speaker B: Great.
[00:25:15] Speaker A: Can I tell you my Tony Victory story?
[00:25:17] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:25:18] Speaker A: So I. I played in a band when I was like much younger called Champion and we had put out, you know, a bunch of records on Bridge 9.
And we were at that kind of crossroads of like, well, do we do another lp? Because our RLP had done well. Like, we'd been able to tour on it, you know, all. All of the stuff. And it was, like, super exciting time in all of our lives. They're like, wow, we want. Are we going to do another record? And record record labels started coming, and other record labels and Equal Vision approached us and shout out to Bill and Steve, you guys rock.
And Victory Records approach us. And I was very, very, and still am today, friends with Clint, who worked at Victory.
And we were out on tour and we met with both labels and we eventually agreed to sign with Equal Vision and actually had signed Equal Vision. And we broke up.
But we went to the Victory offices and they put us in, like, which is like, a beautiful building. Like, you know, it was like a red brick building, and it was, like, incredible being there. It's like, this is insane. We're in, like, the Victory Records offices, you know, and they put us in this, like, waiting room that had a treadmill in it. And it had, like, framed photos of articles of Tony Victory, like, all over the place. Which. It's cool, you know, it's amazing. It's amazing. But it was, like, super weird.
Something out of, like a. Out of, like, you know, an 80s movie.
So Tony Victory keeps us waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting. And I'm like, you know, is this some kind of, like, weird psychology? Like, what is this?
Finally, we get ushered into this room. He's sitting behind this humongous wooden desk. He's wearing a pink Fred Perry with the collar.
And he's like, grips our hands with these, like, steel grips. And we sit down and he basically just like, I'm. I've always been, like, a pretty strong conversationalist. And at that point, I was like a trained therapist. I had worked as a therapist for a long time, so I'm, like, very comfortable holding my own in most conversations. So I'm going in like, oh, yeah. Like, I'm not scared of this guy. Oh, he absolutely annihilated me. This guy just, like, yelled at us for, like, an hour and said the most. He kept making, like, analogies to killing people in the military and having guns and all of the stuff. And he kept saying, like, you know, he said at one point, it's like, Victory Records has the biggest guns and I'm holding all the ammo. And then he was silent for a second. Then he goes, pull the trigger.
And we were like, What? And then we just get ushered out. Like, it's not like. And, you know, do what aside? Or whatever. It's just like, we just get ushered out. And, like, we're all in the van afterwards. Like, what was that?
And our bass player and Andy, who's from Maryland, and he sings in this band called Praise now, who are, like, phenomenal.
[00:28:24] Speaker B: They're so good.
[00:28:25] Speaker A: So, okay, great. You know, it's like, the best. Andy. It's, like, dead silent in the van. And Andy goes, hey, man, that was some.
If we signed to that label, I'm gonna quit.
[00:28:38] Speaker B: Amazing.
[00:28:40] Speaker A: It was crazy. And then we go to Equal Vision the next day, and it was like, the chillest. Like. Like the chillest. They're like, yeah, we'd love to work with you guys. Like, you know, like, I'm a fit. Like, obviously, I grew up on Youth Today. Those are my boys. Like, you guys. Guys have an X in your hand. I'm straight edge. Do you want to be an Equal Vision? We're like, where do I sign, sir? What do we do?
[00:28:59] Speaker B: This immediately makes sense to me, other than the Absolutely. Presentation we got yesterday, which was rehearsed in the mirror, I'm pretty sure.
[00:29:07] Speaker A: Oh, my God. It was like, I. When I tell you, he just yelled at us for. And it might not have been an hour, maybe it was, like, 20 minutes, I can't remember. But, like, it was, like, terrifying and intoxicating and being like, I understand why you're successful because you're, like, terrifying but, like, entertaining at the same time. It was like, maybe the cross between, like, a Wall street meeting and a WWF match.
[00:29:31] Speaker B: I can see that. That makes sense.
Yeah. I think we had, like, a couple letters back and forth with Clint for a while, too.
You know, we were with Stavezaker when we were trying to figure out what we wanted to do.
[00:29:45] Speaker A: Clint's the best man.
[00:29:46] Speaker B: Yeah. He seemed like a great guy. I don't know him very well, but he was the one that we were interacting with at Victory.
[00:29:52] Speaker A: All right, so let's go towards the. Towards the end of the interview, but before we get there, anything you want to shout out, anything you want to mention or any questions you want to.
[00:30:01] Speaker B: Ask me, I have so many questions for you because, I mean, I could almost flip the conversation around. I'm fascinated by your background in punk and hardcore. And, I mean, I. Fan of all the bands that you've been in.
[00:30:18] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:30:19] Speaker B: Familiar with, you know, what you've done in music and obviously understand that the, you know, kind of ethos and lifestyle that goes along with it. But how you did you start as a therapist and then kind of move into coaching and you mentioned a job kind of along the way. So I'm very curious, kind of what your professional trajectory was alongside music because you've also stayed more connected, I think, as a professional with music than a lot of people. Like, I didn't play music for 15 years because I was working, you know, and couldn't. My brain couldn't wrap around the idea of doing both. So I just bought records and went.
[00:31:09] Speaker A: To shows, which is connected. That's a different kind of connected.
[00:31:13] Speaker B: Different kind of connection.
[00:31:16] Speaker A: So I started as a, as a therapist. I did addiction and mental health work in.
Starting in Abbotsford, which is. I live in Vancouver BC. Abbotsford's about 45 minutes outside of Vancouver. And it's like, it's a town that has a penitentiary near it. So it has like a lot of.
There's a lot of activity out there, if I could just put it that way. Like a lot of criminal activity, a lot of gangs, a lot of biker gangs, a lot of stuff going on out there. So although Abbotsford's like quite a small town, it actually is like, I can't speak of it as what it is today, but it's like 20 years ago it was like crazy. I was dealing with like legit street gangs, but in this small town that's essentially like adjacent to being just a farming town almost, except it's like, like a little, little city basically. It was incredible. So I did that for five years and it was like street entrenched youth, street gangs worked a lot and it was an outpatient treatment center. But I also worked a lot in the high schools. It was really, really, really cool. I did that. And then I went into concurrent disorders housing. So like what people would call comorbidity previously, it's people living with mental health and addiction. And we created second stage housing for them. So like first stage would be like, hey, we just gotta have to get you in a home. Like we'll put you in a single room occupancy and sro, because up until that point you're living on the streets. Let's get you into first stage housing to help you just stabilize. And some people, that's enough. They're just happy to be in there and continue their lifestyle.
But for people that wanted to go into more like second state, what at the time, I don't know what it's called now, but at the time was called second stage housing would be things that would require a level of maintenance of sobriety. And some places would be different. Our place, you had to be sober for have maintained sobriety, to stay there and be connected to addiction support and mental health support. So we.
We ran housing, created, like, supported housing for that. I did that for two years. And then after that, I went back to being a therapist doing, like, adult mental health and addiction work. And it was incredible. And so the second job was in Vancouver, and the third job was just out outside of Vancouver in an area called New West. It was amazing. I never got burnt out, never had any of the things that people might associate with that in terms of like, not. Not doing the work anymore. What it was for me was I became fascinated. Why?
So many amazing therapists and professionals that I knew, when they made the jump to leadership, they couldn't port over the skills. They were cool people, interesting people, nice, good with people, but they became leaders. They sucked.
And at first I was real judgmental of it until it happened to me. And so the second job I was talking about in the supported housing, I was the supervisor. So I was like, that weird, like, layer of middle management.
And I was terrible. I did. I fell into all the traps you fall into. I wanted everyone to like me. I wanted to be everyone's buddy. But I also, like, felt like I needed to assert my authority. And I was, like, kind of micromanaging, but then also gave people too much space. And like, every. Every.
Well, most of the stupid things that someone could do as a leader, I fell into. And I was trying to figure it out. My boss at the time was, like, one of my best friends.
And he was hard. He was, like, real good at being a friend, but not very good at helping me get better at what I do and give me good feedback. So it was just like. And we're still friends today. He's a great guy, but he wasn't really challenging me. I didn't really know what to do. And I was like, I suck at this so bad. So I left that job. I went back to being a therapist, and I was just fascinated because it was the first thing I'd ever really failed at before. Like, real, like, face down. Like, I can't say one good thing that I did in that job. I was like, I sucked from day one, basically.
And I became fascinated with the idea of, like, what does it mean to be a good leader? Like, how do you port those skills over? How do you grow?
I was walking down the street with my dog. I have a wiener dog named Blue. And this was like, I don't know, like 16 years ago. And I still have Blue. He's still, he's still with us. He's a very, yeah, very old dog. And I was walking down the street, I ran into a.
Just like some random person who was talking to me about my dog was like, oh, you know, wiener dog, blah, blah. We end up chatting.
He said, well, what do you do? And I was like, oh, I'm a, I'm a therapist. He's like, well, I run an executive coaching company and we're looking for a therapist to join our company to help us with our coaching. Would you be interested in interviewing? And I was like, that sounds cool, but what's executive coaching?
And then he explained it to me. I didn't even know it was an industry. And I was like, huh, that sounds kind of interesting. I end up interviewing, get the job. And what I realized after two weeks is like, this cat did not hire me because I'm a therapist. He hired me because I'm a good conversationalist. And I basically was a salesperson for his cordy ass company.
And I had quit my job. I'd made this transition into a different world.
And I had a choice. It was like either I crawl back to my old, my old job or not my old job, but like my old industry or I try and figure out if I can do this. So I worked in this guy's company, which legitimately had some good elements. I'll say this, it set me up for what I do now. And I was there for 5ish years.
And I got up to like, almost at a partner level. And along the way I was like, they're like a communication company. Like they, they, they call themselves like a leadership, leadership company, but really they're like, all they do is like, kind of show you, they just show you how to communicate. They show you a skill set with. That's within leadership. And it's really more geared towards like, presentations. If anything, it's like, I'd say it's maybe a more, a more advanced thing from like just a basic presentation training. And they had some different versions of it, but that was kind of the core of it. And I don't know what they do now, but over time I kind of developed my own business within their business, which is basically what Cadence does now. And I didn't mean to do it, it's just that I would go to see clients and they'd be like, they'd have these really complex problems in their business that had to do with like how they felt about things or what was going on with their team, like things they were really struggling with.
And like the expectation from my boss is we'd pull out like, okay, let's figure out how we want to structure our communication here. And that's not what they actually wanted, but that's what they'd been sold was this like kind of executive coaching, but it's really communication training. So at one point I just like abandoned this ridiculous thing that they try to get us to do and I started doing what I do or what I would go on to do. And I did that for about the five years that I was there. I kind of like honed my craft and then I was like a step away from being a partner and my boss and I just never got along ever, for all sorts of reasons. Part of those reasons are me, like how I am about things.
And we had a total explosion and like just a huge like head to head argument. And he fired me.
The day he fired me is the day I started my company. And now it's nine years later. And whereas what I went from a moment of like, oh, I'm totally screwed to three months later, I'm like, you know what, I think I could actually hire someone to three months after that. It's like, actually I think I can hire another person to now, nine years later, there's 13 full time people. We got about 17 contractors. We work all over the world. We've got a really built out intellectual property.
We've really positioned ourselves as doing like four things. We do individual executive coaching, we do team coaching, we do assessments. So we come in and really help assess teams and assess individuals and assess teams. And then finally we do courses on leadership communication. We help with company culture. And yeah, we've built up this incredible company. And so yeah, it's been a wild ride. But I'll tell you all of that stuff. I wouldn't do that without Punk and Harcourt. Punk is what taught me how to do that.
[00:39:23] Speaker B: I can see that it's the ultimate version of seeing how maybe like the mainstream does something and then figuring out the way you're going to do it yourself, you know, I mean it's, it's a very straightforward example kind of of what Punkin, the punkin hardcore community has always tried to accomplish. How are we going to do it our own way, you know?
[00:39:52] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, totally. Well said. And it's been like, I mean, the honor of my life is being married to my wife and then being a dad to our kids.
And, you know, then of course, leaving the company, and it's been. It's been super cool.
Luckily, very, very luckily, I've had friends along the way, like the guys in the First Step and Todd Jones and Aaron Kretzberg. And, like, those two guys are kind of, like, more my creative, like, mentors, you know, in terms of how to sell, write songs and look at music.
I talk about both of them a lot because they're also both, like, highly unique guys. Like, they're really unique guys. And I'm. I'm better.
I'd say, like, my worldview and how I view things are better as having known them and. And knowing them still.
And, yeah, I've just been real lucky. And then the other one, I should say, is Chris Williams, who's, like, my, like, Ride or Die guy played in Champion with them and, like, we were. He's always kind of, like, I don't want to say, luring me back into music. It's not that. It's just that, like, when I'm ready, Chris is ready to go. Like, when I'm okay, it's time to write a record. Chris is ready to go. Okay, it's time to start touring again. Chris is ready to go. So that's how I've kind of stayed in music. It's had a lot to do with, like, Todd, with Aaron, with the other guys in tfs, the guys in Keep It Clear, and then really central with Chris as well.
[00:41:14] Speaker B: I love when Chris is on 185.
[00:41:17] Speaker A: It's the best, right?
[00:41:18] Speaker B: Yeah, it's awesome. And are you guys ever going to do another Change record?
[00:41:25] Speaker A: It's interesting you say that.
There's been a lot of conversation about it lately. If you'd asked me a year ago, I would have said, a year ago, I would have said no, but Change will always be a band. And then six months ago, I would have said maybe. And now I will say, yeah, like, yeah, we'll do another record. I'm kind of, like, mentally gearing up for it, but I actually picked up my guitar yesterday for the first time in a long time.
[00:41:49] Speaker B: So cool. And that. I mean, from a musical standpoint, I'm always curious.
You have, you know, obviously you've always been a songwriter and have done more frontman duties and played guitar and bands as well.
I want. I'm curious always when people have done that. Like, clearly there are gratifying things about both roles and both kind of challenges in a band.
What do you enjoy uniquely about either one?
[00:42:25] Speaker A: I like playing guitar in A band, because I just love not being the center of attention but holding it down hard.
Like in the. In the first step, Aaron is really the musician, but I'm essentially a bass player with six strings. Like, I just hold it down, and that means, like, I play.
I play that song perfect. But I also jump around a lot, and I give him the freedom just to be Aaron, because Aaron's a really good guitar player, so he could, like, just get airy and be weird to do all this stuff at a show, and I can just jump around, jump in the crowd, but I hold it down. And I love playing guitar in the band and jumping around. It's, like, my favorite. And then for singing, I think I always should have been the singer. Like, I like. TFS is a different. A different thing because I joined their band. But anything that was my band, I should always been the singer, and for all sorts of reasons, but I'm just more that guy, and I'm a much better singer and lyricist than I am a guitar player. But the core of it. I'm a decent songwriter on both fronts, but I love singing.
The thing I work on is maybe shoving up a bit more in between songs, but that's part of the show, man.
[00:43:39] Speaker B: Well, and then in trade and change, you're the front guy, but how much of the music are you contributing? Or is that something that. When you're the mouthpiece, do you enjoy giving up some of those songwriting duties?
[00:43:55] Speaker A: So.
[00:43:56] Speaker B: So that you can just focus on lyrics?
[00:43:59] Speaker A: With Todd and Betrayed.
Todd wrote everything in Betrayed, and actually, him and I were just talking about this the other day.
There were when. When him and I were at our best, I could make, like, little suggestions, like, hey, I think this would work better with the vocals if we. If we did this. But when we're at our worst and we kind of get the loggerheads with each other is when I was trying to be too much of a creative partner with them because he's just.
I mean, he's a genius. He's like, an actual, like, musical genius. And really, really understanding what lane to swim in with someone who can play at that level is ultra important, and I was too young to understand that. So, like, I would say our worst songs are where I tried to insert myself too much. And you could see it on our lp where, like, I.
Our EP and our split were so organic because I knew how to just come in and be like, hey, Todd, maybe this one part here, this one thing there. And then our last EP was a bit like that as well. And our lp, I was too caught up in, like, I need to assert myself.
I want my vocals to be this way and that way. It's like, no, he writes the songs and I do what serves the songs. And that's really how it had to be.
[00:45:17] Speaker B: Some bangers on that record, though.
[00:45:19] Speaker A: Oh, thank you. Thank you.
[00:45:20] Speaker B: I love that record.
[00:45:21] Speaker A: Oh, thank you so much.
When it came to change, though.
Change, I was the primary songwriter. But the. The thing about change is that Carl and Alex and Dave. And Dave wrote one of the songs on the record, like, through and Through. And it's funny because it's the song we. We open with when we play Now. But it was the song that I was like, I hate the song. I don't want to do it. And he was like, you hate this song because it's not your song. And I was like, no, I don't. But in reality, it's like now, years later, I'm like, he's probably right.
I would bring a song through. But we deconstruct this. The. We deconstruct it with those guys and completely rewrite it. So I can say I was the songwriter, but really I was the seed of the song. And it was, like, the process of working with those guys because they're really superior musicians, all of them far better than I am.
But change is.
It's like. Like, I'll come up with the. The idea and then I bring it to musicians. But yeah. Yes. Like, I'll say very comfortably, there will be another record. All right, man, let's get. Let's get into that crucial three. Cause I'm going to ask you three questions of scale and difficulty.
[00:46:25] Speaker B: Okay, go.
[00:46:27] Speaker A: Okay. All right. I'm going to start with a doozy, but I'll get harder from there. You have what looks like 2000 LPs behind you, just over.
[00:46:36] Speaker B: That was a very good guess.
[00:46:39] Speaker A: What are the three most important records in that collection?
[00:46:49] Speaker B: If I go off the cuff. And I will immediately think of things to, like, knock, like, change around.
Thrill biscuits Start today Minor thread, out of step, Quicksand slip.
[00:47:05] Speaker A: Okay, good, good.
[00:47:07] Speaker B: And I have. I have 30 that I would go.
[00:47:09] Speaker A: Like, oh, what about.
[00:47:10] Speaker B: Oh, wait, so. But those were the first three that came to mind. And none of them are wrong. I could just add to it.
[00:47:20] Speaker A: Heck, yeah. Heck, yeah.
All right.
How are you different today as a person and a professional than you were the last year of your job when you're still working your old job?
[00:47:35] Speaker B: I'm in flux as a human.
That's what's Different.
You know, when I was in that job, that was kind of.
It was my profession, it was my community, and it was what I put 98% of my energy into.
At this point in my life, I still want to work all the time.
Like, I. I still have to, you know, just like, talking about vacations and stuff like that. I don't know how to do that.
But I think at this point in my life, the thing that I love about being at Flux Influx, even though it's very, very uncomfortable, is not knowing what the most effective version of myself is right now.
You know, in that last year, everything was so clearly defined.
That made it kind of easy. If you give your identity up to something else, you don't have to ask yourself difficult questions. You don't have to wonder, like, who. Who you are or what you don't even ask yourself, like, what do I enjoy? What do I want to do outside of this? What do I want to do for my family? What do I want to do creatively?
Like, none of those things matter because you're singular in purpose. And so now I'm asking myself all of those questions and trying to figure out what that looks like.
What does it mean to go on vacations and spend more time.
[00:49:15] Speaker A: More.
[00:49:17] Speaker B: More focused time with family?
What's gratifying about playing music?
What's gratifying in being in, like, potentially multiple bands that have, you know, different purposes, you know, for me, like, personally, you know, and how much of a role is that going to take in maybe this next chapter in my life? Is it kind of nostalgia driven, or is it me now?
And are there more?
Is there more than even two options? You know, it's like, that's the thing. I.
I don't even know all the questions I want to ask myself yet.
[00:50:03] Speaker A: I love that.
[00:50:04] Speaker B: So I certainly don't know the answers.
[00:50:06] Speaker A: No, that was a great. That was a great. That was a great answer. Okay, the last one, and this one's like a little bit of a mind twister.
Put yourself in the shoes of, like, a young person who's listening to this podcast, or maybe not listen to this podcast, but is thinking, like, I want to get into the management side of the music business. I want to manage artists.
What are three questions that they need to answer for themselves before they should take that leap and commit to it.
[00:50:35] Speaker B: First of all, do you actually love music, and is that your motivation?
There's no wrong answer there. I just think it's an important distinction to make because I think that will guide your decisions after the fact.
Secondly, do you have kind of that servant leader spirit about you?
Because there's an element of being a manager where you're kind of guiding the ship, but there's also an element to needing to be down in the trenches with everyone. And there is still a principle.
Whether they call themselves president, CEO, owner, whatever, you're still very much in service to them. And so I think it's the quintessential servant leadership role.
You definitely have to understand that that's difficult for some people to understand that.
And thirdly, I think you would have to ask yourself, are you really willing to grind for a long time time? Because there isn't an easy path to that.
You know, that that's investment in time, in relationships, in, like, looking for opportunity and then growing something that potentially could start out smaller. That takes a lot of work to get to a point where you're really doing what you see as maybe.
[00:52:16] Speaker A: You.
[00:52:17] Speaker B: Know, that encyclopedia definition of manager could be a fair ways down the road, you know, because there isn't a one size fits all manager because there's no two artists that are alike. And so if you're ultimately trying to help an artist execute what they want to do, you have to figure out your role in that.
And that's not something that you can just like write down like bullet points, you know, that's going to be something that you have to adapt based on the relationship you build with an artist, ultimately.
[00:52:56] Speaker A: Yeah. Awesome, man. Listen, we've made it to the end. You did great.
Anything you want to add in as we close off?
[00:53:04] Speaker B: I feel like I kind of bounced around. I don't even know how I would sum it all up. That. That feels like too high a mountain to climb at this point.
What is the closing statement? I don't have one.
More than anything, like, I appreciate you reaching out. Like, I appreciate the conversation. Like, that is one of the more. Your approach to interviewing is so much more than just a list of questions based on someone's background, you know, and so you don't necessarily just get the this is my life story in order kind of responses. And so it was. I'm going to be perfectly honest, I've been kind of terrified leading up to this because it's not just like, okay, so on the second record, you know, how did you get your bass tone?
Which those things all have easy answers, right?
So the fact that this is more about people's life and career, but it's still kind of informed by that, like punk and hardcore beginning has always been super interesting. To me and was downright intimidating going into it. So thank you for being a gracious host.
[00:54:22] Speaker A: Oh, man, you rock. This was a great conversation. All right, we're going to head towards the end, everybody. I hope you enjoyed this as much as I did, and we'll see you next time.
See ya.
