Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: I believe I never sold out. So that's very important to me because I'm extremely value based and driven persons. Joey Cape has that song going for the Bronx, which I like. I think it's a great tune. And this is funny to me. If I would describe this, I'm competitive in the sense of that I want to give it my best, but I'm also okay if it's the silver or the Bronx medal. So I wouldn't say having the gold medal is a disappointment. But I also know if you're the true, probably if you want to be the CEO, then these are the guys who would say gold or nothing. And I feel like I want to be competitive at a good level, but I don't have to be the number one. I think number three can be just as good.
[00:00:42] Speaker B: That was a clip from today's guest, everyone. Welcome back to the show. This is a super cool interview. It's so interesting when you grow up in punk and hardcore like I did, and you go into the professional world and you start to realize all the people that you knew coming up, most of them went on to go do really cool things in the business world. And it could be they start their own business, it could be that they become a chef or they become a psychologist. And in some cases, some people go on to enter the corporate world and go up in the ranks and end up into quite senior level jobs. It's really cool to meet people and kind of cross paths with people and hear about that side of their experience while also talking about being a punk. So today's interview is one that I think everyone can draw a lot of really, really cool gems from, and I'm excited for you to hear it. Before we get to it, please rate review and subscribe to the podcast. It is a huge help if you do that. So please check it out. My name is Aram Arslanian and this is one step beyond.
Welcome to the show.
[00:02:05] Speaker A: Thank you, Ram. My name is Torsten Dietz. I'm currently the chief operating officer of a reinsurance company based in Munich.
[00:02:13] Speaker B: Amazing. So what is reinsurance?
[00:02:15] Speaker A: Reinsurance, as the second part of the name implies, has to do with insurance. But reinsurance actually is insurance for insurance companies. So that's what reinsurance does. It takes out the risks that come with very large events. So that's usually net catastrophes, natural catastrophes, earthquakes, floods, hurricanes, that kind of stuff, because that could cause so much lust to an insurance company that it would destroy their total profit for a year. And so you have reinsurance that takes out the peak, the highest amount of those risks.
[00:02:49] Speaker B: This is an interesting industry to be a part of. So how did you find it? Or how did it find you?
[00:02:57] Speaker A: There's a little bit of coincidence and there's a little bit of family. So my dad worked in the insurance industry. And so growing up, I just found he was a happy man. So he liked what he did and was content. So I had a positive association with what he must have experienced. And then I ended up. I studied law, and a professor found me because they liked a paper I had written and said if I would not want to work for him. And that, coincidentally, was a professor that taught insurance law. And so I ended up learning a little bit about insurance law and liked that as well. And so then one thing led to the next. So you do a little bit law and insurance, and then a law firm that specialized insurance contacted me and, yeah, the rest is history.
[00:03:44] Speaker B: Reinsurance, is this an industry that's been around for a long time, or is this something that's developed within more recent times?
[00:03:52] Speaker A: No, it's been around for a long time.
Insurance really goes back. I think what people do is what you probably would call today is like a. A mutual reinsurance company. So people just found if you build a house or in the early days, you send a ship from England to the US, it was too much loss to cover for one person if the whole ship would sink. So several people and said, okay, we share the risk, we get paid for that. But if we just allocate the loss to many pockets, then it's bearable for everyone. And that's the same idea as behind reinsurance. So you just split loss. That would be too much for one company, for one person to bear across several insurance companies, reinsurance companies. So that idea is really as old as insurance is.
[00:04:41] Speaker B: I've never heard of it before. I work with quite a few insurance companies. And it's funny you say that you saw your father as such a happy man, because everyone I know in insurance is actually a really happy person.
The companies I work for are wonderful, and the people in them are quite happy.
[00:04:58] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good to hear. I only worked for one insurance company. If I go through the history of my professional career, you would like me to. So I studied law, as I said, and then I also spent a year in the US to get a master's of law at an american school, and met my wife Karen, who you also met, and she's american. And I ended up then working for a law firm in the US. For a little bit, but that was honestly the easiest job I could find with my background. So I had a german law degree. I worked for this insurance law professor and had the US degree. It was relatively easy to find a job at a law firm because a lot of insurance companies actually are based in Germany and Switzerland, so they liked the german speaking background so I could work with it, these clients and the cases. But I knew when I was in law school already that I would not be. My dream job was not to sit and write papers and briefs. I liked to interact with people, and so that was a transition I at some point wanted to make. And so I had then the opportunity. Some of the clients I worked with were actually investment banks. They do a lot of stuff with insurance. Also. There is, I would say, creative finance products. They develop where they actually put the risk that a reinsurance company would take to investors. So you can invest in something that they call a catastrophe bond. So that's investors putting money into weather risk, so they get paid. But if a real severe hurricane or something would hit, then they lose money. And these companies like this because it diversifies their portfolio, it's not related to the stock market, it's completely unrelated risk. So it's very good for them to balance their portfolios. And so I ended up then working for an investment bank in New York for a few years.
And then we discussed this earlier. The 911 happened, I was looking for a new job. And that was then the time when I thought, okay, now I'm going to really go to the business side. And this is how I ended up then with, with an insurance company.
[00:07:09] Speaker B: So when you started studying for law, what was the intent? What did you want to do?
[00:07:14] Speaker A: My dream was always to become a doctor, actually. But I realized in school, I'm not good in math and physics and chemistry. And I understood when you, at least in Germany, when you study medicine the first few semesters, it's really all about the basics. So you repeat your basic knowledge in math and biology and that kind of stuff. I thought, that's just not good. The other thing I had realized also in school is that I'm pretty good with words. I like to reason, I like to listen, and so just like to talk with people. And so I thought, okay, law is maybe a good path to go into and never regret it. I'm not working in law at all anymore for the last 2025 years, but I still like the skills I learned there. The way you approach things, you structure, you think you have the greatest arguments and should win the case, and then you get the document, legal papers from the other side, and you say, oh, it's also good. It's also very reasonable.
And I like to go through life like this. You think you know it all, but when you're open and have the ability to listen and see what others view, what their view is on the same issue, you benefit. So I like this approach. But law that, you know, you have two cases, you weigh them, and then a judge or yourself, you decide which is the right way to go.
[00:08:36] Speaker B: So when you were in law school, though, did you know what kind of law you wanted to go into?
[00:08:41] Speaker A: Not at all, really? No, not at all. I didn't even know what law really encompasses. And there's all the facets, family law, labor law, public law, so criminal law, of course, it's tons of stuff. I had no idea what I would like. I was very open minded with it. And it was, in the end, there was a few things I would rule out. Family law was not, I was not related, was not relating to me, so it was not grabbing me.
And then it was really, in the end, coincident that it turned out to be. This one paper I wrote, and it was an insurance law professor who looked at it.
[00:09:21] Speaker B: Your career path kind of found you. You were already in school, heading down that way, but it was really just the twist of fate that someone had to read a paper, happened to read a paper and decided to look you up, find you, and you decided to say yes.
[00:09:34] Speaker A: Yep, yep.
[00:09:36] Speaker B: That leap of faith of saying yes, was that like easy? Like, yeah, I'll come work for you, or did it take some deliberation?
[00:09:42] Speaker A: This was also very easy because it's, first of all, it's a little bit of an honor if you work this way during law school. So it was like a teaching assistant for that professor. So it would be hard to say no of it. It was a paid job, which in school is obviously golden. So it was easy to. And it was very cool people working there.
Yeah. And this was a very interesting professor. He was also doing large mediation, so sort of like judge kind of stuff. So it was easy to say yes.
[00:10:13] Speaker B: Where within Germany did you grow up?
[00:10:15] Speaker A: I grew up in Frankfurt till I was eleven. And then we moved to Braunschweig, which is more in the North Hanover area, and then I moved for school to Passau, which is in the south, not too far from where we're sitting today. And then I went to Cologne. That was where I met this professor.
[00:10:35] Speaker B: Okay, so. And up in that point, you were all in Germany. And then you went to the states?
[00:10:40] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:10:41] Speaker B: And you went to the states for school?
[00:10:42] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:10:42] Speaker B: And where did you go first?
[00:10:44] Speaker A: I went to northwestern in Chicago.
[00:10:47] Speaker B: And why there?
[00:10:48] Speaker A: So the whole story is I decided to write a doctoral thesis on law, which is not so uncommon for lawyers to do in Germany. And the professor that was the mentor for my thesis, it turned out he was an alcoholic. I noticed that he was hiding it, but he was an alcoholic. And it's usually you set aside two years to do this, and I figured, you know, the guy is not paying so much attention honestly to what I'm writing. I can do this in a year. And then it was a funny thing. So, as I said, it was a university of Cologne, which is in the state of north Westphalia, and they have a rule if you want to do an apprenticeship in law, which you're required to do after you finish law school, you have to be a native of that state to start right away after school. And since I was not a native of that state, I had two years to wait before I could do the apprenticeship. And since I figured I can do my thesis in one year, I had one extra year to kill.
And there was an offer that you can get this masters of law from a law school. And the insurance law professor I'd worked with, he actually knew an insurance company that provides stipends for these kind of stuff abroad. So I applied there. They funded my study in Chicago. And so that's how I used my other year that I had to kill. And then, as you know, there was another big twist of fate, is that I met my wife in Chicago. She's american. And that then really changed my plan. So it was meant to be a year, then turned out into eight years.
[00:12:26] Speaker B: Ultimately, it sounds like you're career and life is a lot of really cool moments where things kind of cross your path, but you're willing to take a leap into them.
[00:12:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's how I go through life. So I often really feel like, it sounds good, give it a try. So it's not. So it can be a big decision, but it's not always premeditated in my case. So there's a hunch or a gut feeling or something comes, I'll take it. I also believe I'm a very flexible and adaptable person. So I really believe if I turn left or right, either way will be good, because I will make the best of it. I find in all countries you meet wonderful people. In all professions, you meet nice people. So in the end, I almost don't care so much. I don't plan it so much because I believe it will turn out okay. Anyways.
[00:13:20] Speaker B: So another part of your story is growing up in punk and hardcore.
[00:13:23] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:13:24] Speaker B: So how did you find punk and hardcore? How did it find you?
[00:13:28] Speaker A: Yeah, so I. This was still in. This was in Braunschweig. So I was probably fifth grade, and there was a guy who was a little bit older in my class, and he was very political. I think the Green party had just started in Germany, and he was into reggae and whatever, left sort of politics. So I hung out with him a lot, and he introduced me to a lot of stuff.
And then whatever you do at that age, you bought your first records. So I think my first one was Smokey, and so it was just cheesy pop stuff you would listen to. But then I think the first album was UFO. I think it's a british metal band that I somehow crossed my path, and then it was somehow the next thing was the Sex Pistols. And so that totally grabbed me. There was the music, the attitude, the looks, the messages. So that was totally fascinating me.
And then, like so many people in Europe, there was John Peale, the british radio broadcaster. His shows I was able to listen to from where we lived, you could receive the. So I got a lot of music from there. And then there was a probably 78, 79. And Braunche was a really cool pun band. Daily terror is the name. They turned sour afterwards, but at that time. So it was really the first guys bringing all that stuff from London. And they were so open minded to young people, so I always thought how uncool to have kids like us, but they brought us into their rehearsal room, and so that's just. It took off from there.
[00:15:03] Speaker B: How old were you during this?
[00:15:05] Speaker A: I was probably 1213 when we were.
[00:15:06] Speaker B: Young, what did your parents think?
[00:15:09] Speaker A: The good thing is we discussed it before. My dad actually played music himself, so he plays saxophone. It was the typical rockabilly kind of stuff that he played, so I guess he was open to music.
[00:15:26] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:26] Speaker A: And the looks, obviously, that was a little bit something to get used to in the beginning, but I also didn't start. It was not a Mohawk guy, but it was just short hair, leather jacket, that stuff.
[00:15:38] Speaker B: So as you progressed from there, though, you kind of went more into the hardcore side of things. What drew you into that?
[00:15:45] Speaker A: There's one other thing I also just want to mention, because also with balance for my parents, I was also very much into sports my entire youth, and still to this day, I played field hockey. This is funny. Sometimes for Americans, but in Germany and in Europe it's also men played. I know in the US it's mostly women, but. So I played that really at a professional level till I was 20, including the youth national team. And we won several german titles with these teams. So there was always a balance. So I was. That maybe also got me into straight edge and hardcore because I was not the type to. I did drink. That was unavoidable in punk rock in the beginning, but to answer your original question. So it was the. I think there's no future, future stuff.
Many of my friends and myself, we got tired of quickly. But for me, it was before hardcore came was really then after sex pistols, so public image limited came quickly. There was Bauhaus, there was Joy Division. So a lot of that more new wave stuff that played a big role and then, yeah, I don't know what it was. I think probably gorilla biscuits. Youth of today, then. That was almost, for me, I would say the third wave in my music career that pulled me back to more the energy and more the wildness that I had experienced in punk walk. That was a little bit different with the Bauhaus and the joy divisions of this world.
[00:17:18] Speaker B: Were you able to see euthanasia and gorilla biscuits in their original tour?
[00:17:22] Speaker A: No, I never saw them, unfortunately, legendary tours.
[00:17:26] Speaker B: So you've got this duality. You know, you're coming up, you're very focused on your studies, you're very focused on your sports. It sounded like you had a lot of discipline from a young age.
[00:17:37] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:37] Speaker B: At the same time, you get into this totally wild kind of music that, especially back then, was very kind of outsider, fringe music.
[00:17:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:45] Speaker B: How did those two worlds work together?
[00:17:47] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a very good question. I think I tried to figure that out for myself, I guess, still today. So I.
When I reflect on myself, yes, I'm super disciplined. I see this now with my kids because I, for me, discipline, I think, is one of my kids that you. You enjoy this. For you, discipline is good. They like not to be disciplined, some of them.
So that, that's really true. And I don't know if it has to do with the sports that I got into early on because there was, you know, three, four times a week was practice. You just had to go. And so maybe that was something because I'm also not super organized, like my room or my desk, more messy.
The punk rock stuff, I believe that has to do with rebellion. So I think that's going against, and I don't know if that came from the friend I mentioned if it goes rebelling against my parents. But I have in me always had in me to be, in terms of band name, the sport against or, you know, that's.
I have sometimes I would say a dislike for the majority, like people.
That goes to my all big interest in animal rights.
I just find people, it's very selfish, you know, you only think about your own little small, the next iPhone, your bigger car. And that's something I always find that this is not what life should be about. And there's much more responsibility. If you're doing well, then you should take care of people who are not doing well. And that I always find if you go sort of mainstream, this is all about close circles, it's borders, it's protecting the wealth we have, looking away from what we do to animals, how we let people starve. And that's what I found punk work was, was pointing the finger at. And it's standing up for the underdog.
It's shedding the light on the people who don't fit the mold and who don't want to just think about their own wealth and progress. So I think that's still today. I think it's a community that cares in other ways. I would say mainstream does.
[00:19:59] Speaker B: Thank you. Because what you just said, I agree, and really inspiring.
What's interesting though, is if someone just heard about your professional path, legal path, you know, finance, insurance, all of these things, very corporate, it would sound like a different person from what you just said. And the two, can't they, I mean, they do exist in your life, but I think from the outside looking in, there can be the assumption, especially coming from the punk world. Oh, if you work in like a corporate setting, you sold out or you've given up or you don't believe in things.
[00:20:35] Speaker A: Yeah. Now, there's two things that come to my mind. One is I believe I never sold out. So that's very important because I'm extremely value based and driven person. So I would, I hope others would have to judge, but I really believe I stick to my values, simple things. But for me, I would be as polite to the cleaning lady that comes to my office as I would be to the CEO. These are little things. So I, you know, I try not to pay attention to status symbols that you could have really treat everybody the same value, the opinion of a lower level employee, the same as somebody else. So that stuff I believe my values I kept in intact.
And the other piece is also if I little bit more of a long winded answer when you're done with school in Germany at the time when I graduated, you either had to do mandatory military service, or you could opt out of this and do sort of a civil service, working in a nursing home or stuff like that. And obviously, I would say the majority of people that punk scene would say military have anything to do with it.
I opt out and do something else. And I was thinking about it, and I ended up going to the military. And actually, instead of doing the mandatory 15 months, I opted for a two year program where you get trained as a reserve officer. And the reason why I did this is that I, at this point, thought, okay, this obviously plays a huge role, military, in how humans interact. Like war is just a fact of life. And I decided for myself I'd rather want to go and understand what this is than just opting out. And this is the same. I think I'm in business because I believe you can make more impact if you're not just preaching to the choir and sticking around yourself. But if you bring your values and your beliefs, an environment that is maybe a little bit different and where you can maybe have more impact by making some changes and influencing some people there.
[00:22:44] Speaker B: I agree with everything you said. First of all, that's an amazing story. Like, good for you. I think it's really cool.
I agree with everything you said. That idea of opting out. And I don't want to come from a place of judgment towards anyone that goes down that path, because some people just don't want to do it. They don't want to be involved. But I have always been kind of person where it's like, the things that I don't like, I try and understand. And understanding, for me, doesn't mean understand, oh, I'm going to be understanding of it or permissive of it. It's just I want to understand it so that I can see what I could do to make existing conditions better or more equitable or less toxic. Or sometimes when understanding something, I'm like, oh, it's actually not what I thought it was. It's like, not a big deal. I'll just kind of give you a funny example.
Do you remember the barcode debate in punk rock back in the nineties? And it was like, barcodes. It's like the worst thing you could have in your packaging. Yeah, that's not. It's like total nonsense, right? Yes. So, like, I always draw back to that one because these things that you can be like, that's the worst thing. And then you. You learn about it. You're like, this is not a big deal. Or, yeah, it's a minorly bad thing.
So, for example, I spend a lot of time working with companies in the work that I do where on the outside. I think it would be very easy to be like, oh, this company is bad for the environment, or this, and they're that. And it's not that those things aren't true, but it doesn't mean that people in those companies are like, yes, we're bad for the environment. In fact, more often than not, I found people being like, hey, we're actually bad for the environment. How can we reduce our impact? Or what could we do? Or how do we switch our systems and our processes? And not everyone there have been people who are jerks and unethical and all that. But I'm just such a firm believer. And if you see something, if you want to make a change, the best way that I have found to make a change on things is to, like, understand things, get close to things, get involved with things, get to know people, understand the systems, and then see how you can improve upon or redirect things. So I want to go a little deeper, though, into your punk rock history, though. So you go off to do these, like, very advanced degrees in the states, but you were still going to shows at the time.
[00:25:02] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, yeah. This was actually in Chicago was a great place to go to shows. They had northwestern, they had the main campus in Evanston, and there was a lot of shows. I met Tony Brummell from Victory Records was out there. They had Los Krutos was at the time, I think there were bands like Split Lip. So it was just a great place to see shows all over. And there's also this, especially Chicago was a time where it was a graduate degree, so there was a lot of flexibility in what you do. There was no sports for me in Chicago any longer. So, yeah, shows I've always been enjoying to go to.
[00:25:44] Speaker B: Shout out to Kurtos, man, Kurtos, game changer, incredible band, limp wrist. I just am such a. Such a fan of that whole thing. Incredible band. And also shout out to split lip. You're the first person on the podcast that mentioned it.
[00:25:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I still like them.
[00:26:00] Speaker B: Can I tell you my Tony Brummell story?
[00:26:02] Speaker A: Yeah, go ahead.
[00:26:03] Speaker B: When I played in a band when I was a kid, victory record expressed some interest in us, and my friend Clint, who is the best, and I love you, Clint, said, hey, come and meet with Tony. We went to the Victory records office, and at that point, I'd already had a professional career for a number of years, and I was the business guy in the band. So, like, I was pretty confident, you know, I'm gonna come in and handle this.
We came in, he kept us waiting for 15 minutes in the lobby and then brought us in, and he was wearing a pink, a Fred Perry collared shirt with the collar, and he was behind this humongous oak desk.
[00:26:39] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:26:39] Speaker B: And he just yelled at me for 45 minutes. He kept making all these analogies to guns and fitness, and I came in all, like, confident. And at the end, I was like, and the story is much longer that I will go into it, but what a character.
[00:26:56] Speaker A: When was that? Do you remember?
[00:26:58] Speaker B: That would have been. It would have been like the early two thousands, probably about 2005. He'd said, you know, the reason you should sign to victory Records is imagine if you're in a war. Imagine music is like a war. And if you're in a war, you could be the guy that's out of shape and he's working with the worst gear. He's got the worst gun, keeps misfiring. You're running anti ammunition. Or you could be the best athlete, the strongest soldier with the best gear. You could have the best gun. Let me tell you, victory records, we have the best guns and we're holding all the bullets. And then he saw it for a second and he goes, pull the trigger.
[00:27:47] Speaker A: Cringe.
[00:27:49] Speaker B: I was so horrified.
The very next day, we went to equal vision records and we met with Steve Reddy, who was the coolest dude. He was just sitting in his office, got flip flops on. He's like, yeah, man, I like your band. You guys are straight edge. I'm straight edge. Like, let's do a record together. It'd be totally cool. And I was like, you know, there's, like, photos up on the wall of hardcore bands, and I'm like, this is cool. Like, this is what I want. And no offense to Tony, that was. I mean, it was a trip to be there, for sure.
It was totally hilarious. But it was such an introduction to me about, like, I'd been a professional at, like, a relatively high level already and just got housed by this dude because he's such a big personality.
[00:28:31] Speaker A: Yeah, that's the topic with these big personalities I struggle with also in my work life or wherever you meet them. I'm not a fan of big personalities.
[00:28:41] Speaker B: But I imagine in your line of work, you deal with them quite often.
[00:28:44] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, there's big egos. And a friend of mine said, is interesting people who make it to the top in these corporations. And I do believe to some extent you probably have to be very self centered and have a high opinion of yourself. But also then that's something I'm proud of. I also moved up quite a bit and I believe hopefully people would judge me the same way that I'm still pretty humble in the way I am.
[00:29:15] Speaker B: So let's talk about your role right now. So what is your role specifically and what does that look like in the day to day?
[00:29:23] Speaker A: Yeah, so reinsurance as I described it before, so it's large risk, so there is very little contract, so you have very few customers, but the volumes are very high. So the workforce there is very skilled and has to do a lot of these natural catastrophes. So it's actually a lot of people who work in organization, they have science backgrounds, weather experts and that kind of stuff. And there is a lot which I, as I said, I did not study medicine because I'm not good in math, but there is gazillions of mathematicians, actuaries, so it's super analytical, like they predict how this event, what the loss impact would be. So a lot of modeling and that kind of stuff. So it's a very highly skilled workforce, but it's a very small workforce. So this company I work for has offices in Asia, the US and Europe, but it's only about 550 employees worldwide and my job is to essentially make sure the operations run smoothly. So it's processes, the organizational design, the IT, and there's also human resources, legal and data management. So it's a very broad role, again, because it's such a small company. If you would be at a large insurance company, they would have, what I said, that number of people probably just for it would we have for all of this.
[00:30:50] Speaker B: And how many reports do you have?
[00:30:51] Speaker A: I have eight reports.
[00:30:54] Speaker B: And I'd imagine over the years you kind of scaled up your ability to have more and more reports is that.
[00:30:58] Speaker A: It'S actually not the case. I spent several years in sales, so that was actually working in normal insurance company, working with a tight agent network and there I think I had double the amount of employees. So the 500 is the total company size. I have about 90 people reporting to me and in my younger days I had jobs where it was probably 200, 250. So it's not always, I would say it's not just a pure number, it just also depends what you do and.
[00:31:31] Speaker B: Who reports to you approach to leadership. If you're thinking about whether it's a large team or a small team, how do you go about creating the culture and the tone of leadership.
[00:31:43] Speaker A: So I guess for several reasons, but one also being because the roles being or the areas that I'm responsible being so diverse, it's impossible that I could be the best expert in all of them. So I highly depend on my direct reports to be really good at what they do and to consult with me at the right moment. So that by nature is something where I think I cannot be directive and just say, this is how we do it, or you do it this way or that way. So I like to create an environment where people really can be at their best so that they can feel independent, that they feel in charge also then come when they believe they're a little bit reaching their limits or it may be reaching into somebody else's responsibility. So I very much believe that people are intrinsically motivated, that they do better when they have room to decide and to act.
[00:32:45] Speaker B: So.
[00:32:45] Speaker A: And that's why, again, I'm not the big ego type. So I wouldn't like to be somebody where everybody comes and say, I need your opinion on how do we do this. I'd rather foster an environment where they can grow and be on top of their areas.
[00:32:59] Speaker B: But how do you do that? So if you foster that environment, what do you specifically do to create that environment?
[00:33:05] Speaker A: I think it starts with respect.
I find always key, that's in my life. So I have respect for other beings, humans and non humans, but also for the people I work with. So I show trust in their ability, that they're in the roles they have for a reason.
There is obviously accountability has to be there. So if something goes wrong, I would expect somebody to tell me and not me having to find out or audit having to find out. So I like to create an environment where people, people are comfortable to also come when something didn't go as expected. So I think that's very important to have a trusting environment.
And then I think ultimately, if somebody did something wrong, then I see this responsibility of the leader also to say, okay, there has to be a consequence, which doesn't mean that it has to be negative, but you want to at least make sure you learn the lessons from what has happened and you find ways to protect from this being repeated in the future.
[00:34:13] Speaker B: How did you learn your leadership style? Was it something you developed just as you went along, or were there mentors that you looked to, or did you have a series of good bosses or challenging bosses that helped form how you were?
[00:34:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I think I like to listen and observe. So I think you see a lot of leadership styles. And I believe I've been blessed with really good bosses pretty much all my life, including the law firms I work with in the US. And I also there early on had the really, I would say the fortune that I had female bosses early on in my career.
And I just had bosses where I think I've always taught that they respect me in what I do, that they're available, but they would also listen. So I think that's sort of what I've been fortunate to experience myself.
[00:35:04] Speaker B: Let's take a step back into pug rock for a second.
You brought up straight edge and you started your career in a time where I think alcohol culture in the business world was not what it is today. I think today there's a lot of space and recognition for people who don't drink or people who are sober. But back then, you know, it's like going out for a drink with your colleagues. So how did you navigate what for many people might, might have been a challenging minefield?
[00:35:33] Speaker A: I also would have to say since I started my real work career in the US, that was already very different. I think in Europe when I was with the sports teams, for instance, that was hard to avoid not having beers after a game. So that was, you would have been looked at funnily if you would have said, I'm, you know, I stick with the coke or stuff. So in the US, I thought it was super easy. There are people also, again, I think it was more already at the time, diversity with kosher food and stuff. I think it was more common to say I have a special need or I'm a little bit different in my eating habits. And with the drinking, that was never an issue. Where it was challenging here in Germany was in the sales force. Again, these big events with all the agents coming together and the kickoff, and you would go to Oktoberfest and stuff. And there is really, you felt there is a social expectation, a little bit of pressure, but I think we also learn through our lives that you just resisted then, and if it's important to you, you stick to what you believe in. And I think then people respect it also.
[00:36:39] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. So for you, Oktoberfest, the way I'd related it to, to my experience, is in Calgary, I have this thing called the Calgary Stampede, which is a huge rodeo, and business people all go to it. And the times where I've had to go to events, I live in Vancouver, but I have a lot of clients in Calgary. The times I've had to go to it, they're huge parties. They're like massive parties. And I'm cool, I can hang out. No big deal. Well, not mostly. People are always respectful. The one thing that just drives me crazy where people are like, I hope you don't mind that I'm having a drink.
What do I care?
I don't mind. There, you could do that. I mind more you have leather shoes on than whether you're having a drink. It doesn't matter to me.
It's always funny how alcohol and business culture connect, though, because one of the things I encourage clients to think about is the role that alcohol plays in bumps in people's careers.
And I'm not anti alcohol. If people want to drink, by all means go drink. In fact, I'm not anti substance abuse in general. It's not for me, it's not what I do.
One of the things that I've seen, though, and I'm going to connect it to, in a funny way, to email in a second, is more, in many, many cases, in the work that I do. It's not that always alcohol is a factor. But usually if I trace back the history of challenges in a workplace, somehow alcohol plays in at work events or drinks with people after work.
I just don't know why people risk it.
[00:38:12] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I have to say, in my work life, it has not been a strong presence. I mean, it was there, but I never, it was not such a thing that I thought it's dominant. I have one thing I remember at the company I worked at before, they had at the board level, really, these old, like whiskey and cognac, you know, these jars or bottles, and there was a cigar. So I think that's the old sort of world of business. But that was, to me, was at the top level. Management that had that, and I think it was more of a cliche that would be associated. You say you struck a deal and then you would have a drink. And I also feel that's probably exclusive of women and stuff. But I feel this at least now in my. What I can reflect on, that stuff is gone.
[00:39:05] Speaker B: I find I don't see it as much. I still see quite a bit of drinking culture, but the other things that I think people would have associated with business culture seems to have gone away with. That's good. It's really good, but kind of following that train of thought, and then I'll get to my email story.
So with punk rock, you're a lifer, you've been around for a long time. What keeps you going?
[00:39:32] Speaker A: My simple answer is when I listen to you, like last night or music, I feel a burst of energy. And I really am 57 now, but it feels the same as it felt when I was 15 or 17. So I can't describe it, what it is, but I, I get this energy and this excitement from just the sound of it and then knowing the message that's behind it and there's people who are like minded. It just makes me happy and it makes me going. So I hope it stays like this for the rest of my life. But it just is such a great source of energy.
[00:40:10] Speaker B: What have you learned from punk and hardcore and from the ethical parts of it and all those things that you bring into the corporate world?
[00:40:17] Speaker A: So clearly, one thing I discovered through punk and hardcore is animal rights and veganism. So super important to me for my life. And this came to me, as I said before, I believe caring for each other, that's what humans should do, is my view. And that's what I very strongly feel in, in the hardcore community. I think we care for each other. There is a sense of family, and I think this is the key for making the world a better place. And this is what I, again, when I said that my friend in school in the young days, who was in the raggy and the politics, I think there I learned that it's good to care for each other. And there was whatever, the poverty, Africa, people starving, I just find that horrible. And to me, this image I was in mind. You see these kids with their blown up tummies, the mothers can't feed them. We say, oh, it's horrible, but we really don't change. I think if we really wanted to change it, we would find a way. I always thought if one of these babies would sit just around the corner where we go shopping, I would say a catastrophe. And how can that be? And you would act immediately. And that is somehow to me, that people can distance themselves from really horrible things somehow.
Either you phase it out or it's just not close enough to you. And I find this is, to me still today, I think it's the worst thing for me to accept is that we're sitting here in luxury and we're thinking, is it the iPhone 15 or the iPhone 14? And we know other people don't know how to survive or feed their kids tomorrow. And I just find that's horrible. But I also have to say, unfortunately, I don't know what the solution to the problem is, but the one solution I could find for myself is changing my eating habits, because I find what we're doing to animals is at least as cool as what we allow to happen to fellow humans.
But I think you can have immediate impact by just changing your diet. So you can spare animals from dying simply by eating tofu or eating a pretzel that does not have butter in it.
[00:42:36] Speaker B: So.
[00:42:36] Speaker A: And let's come back to your original question. I think this caring for each other, that's what I think you learn in punk and hardcore. And you learn also to step up against the establishment or against the majority. I think. I think that's what I learned in punk walk is that people really say, f you, I do what I want to do. And this community, you stick together because you have that like minded mindset.
[00:43:05] Speaker B: So how do you bring that into your job, though?
How does it influence you and your job?
[00:43:10] Speaker A: In my job, it also means that I believe this is work also as a community where we should care about each other. So I find in the end, we're spending a lot of lifetime together. So I have the goal to make this enjoyable. So I think people come together, we should care about each other, we should see that we're doing well. You made a comment last night, which I was super, about mental health and paying attention.
That's stuff I want to bring. There's an environment where people really feel they are treated as an individual, that they're being respected, that they're being listened to, that they're being taken care of if something happens. So I like to have that in my teams and in a larger scale. I also try to bring veganism and my thoughts about animal rights to work. So I always have little conversation pieces on my desks or my, you know, my screens and on the video conferences, I bring people like earthing ed to the company guest speakers.
That I think is the challenge where when I look back on what I've done so far, I do compromise in my choices because I said I want to rather be part of the system and try to make changes in the system rather than staying outside.
But I do have to say now at my age, it's also exhausting because it is still frustrating to see how many people just do care that, you know, what the salary increases and what they can do for themselves.
That I believe if I would have chosen a path, you know, working in the music industry, doing something more in the hardcore scene, you probably would have had more like minded people around, you probably would have felt better at times.
So it's, for me is, yeah, it is a little bit of a.
Yeah, I would say a commitment and I wouldn't say sacrifice, but it's something I feel is my contribution is to bring my thoughts to people who probably wouldn't think these thoughts.
[00:45:17] Speaker B: So I'm gonna ask you a series of questions that are kind of play off the duality of your experience. Although you weave it together really well. What's one thing that you learned about yourself that you really, really like that is solely related to your work world? So it's not something you learned about yourself from punk and hardcore, you learned about it through work.
[00:45:35] Speaker A: I believe it's integrity that I believe I can be totally trusted not to violate commitments and values.
[00:45:48] Speaker B: What's something, again, only in the work world that you've learned about yourself that maybe it was disappointing to learn about yourself, or it's something that you're like, I need to work, work on that, that you've been working on.
[00:45:59] Speaker A: I think I cannot always resist. If you have a role that gives you authority, that you don't use it at times I try to risk this very much, but I think there is a moment where you, where I feel I've been bossy. Despite my goal not to be bossy, I totally relate. It's super rare, I hope, but it's, I, it happens.
[00:46:24] Speaker B: So let's go to the punk world. What has punk taught you about yourself that you really appreciate that you wouldn't have learned from the business world?
[00:46:31] Speaker A: I believe that I have a big heart and I'm a caring and good person.
[00:46:37] Speaker B: And then we'll do the flip question, what's punk and hardcore taught you about yourself, helped you learn about yourself that you've had to work on?
[00:46:43] Speaker A: Yeah. So what I learned there is really that I absolutely resent the violence, aggression, anything has to do with war machines, guns and that kind of stuff. And that's even today, I think when shows were violent, are violent. That's something I dislike.
[00:47:01] Speaker B: It's so complex. Yeah, it's like we were saying last night when we played. I just feel we're in a time where it just feels like the common person, so powerless.
There's, you know, there's war all over the world. And outside of these wars, there's always, there's always, as you said, war is inevitable. It's. War is, a war is happening somewhere all the time. Death and violence. But the economy is so challenging. Politics, you know, like us politics dominates. We live in Canada, but us politics dominates a lot of the discourse in North America. It's just such a challenging and dark time that you can feel so powerless in and the meeting, violence with violence. I don't have the answer. I don't have an answer on what to do or what not to do, but linking it back to something you said earlier, because certainly I'd say both you and I live in a great deal of privilege, so we don't have to make those choices about how we answer that. So I think it's wise for us to stay out of that conversation. But the one thing that I do believe people can do, and that we all agree on, is that the world has far too much suffering right now. And something that we can do every day, and I'm just going to pull from what you said earlier, is something that reduces suffering every day. Every day. And meal by meal is going vegetarian or going vegan, or at least limiting your meat intake and dairy intake.
I want people to live their lives. But if we're serious about making the world a better place, and if we're serious about reducing suffering, that's a simple thing people could do every day. Have a salad instead of a burger. Easiest choice you can make.
[00:48:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
There's one thing I want to pick up what you said. I think it would be horrible if you really feel powerless.
I believe we're not powerless. I don't feel like I'm powerless. I think we're fortunate. We have a lot of choices we can make. And to me also, that's a lot of. With activism and activists, there is often a point when you feel like, I'm powerless, how can I ever change it? And what I, and again, that's, for me, was my decision to go into the system. I think you just have to recognize that it takes people, humans, so long to change. And that is the thing. I think there is power. There is power, and we all can influence things. But the problem is, it takes us so long, and something really ugly has to happen before we. We change. And you, obviously your band's name, and you mentioned it yesterday in the song, also, change is nothing to be afraid of.
That's why I also believe with my life experience, the fortunes I had being exposed to different scenes, different music, different cities and stuff, this is all, I think, gave me a lot of strength also to say. And that's why I also, you know, set up.
I think I could live under a lot of circumstances because I believe change, whatever is going to happen, I have a confidence and a feeling it will end up okay.
But that is, to me, I think something we need also find a way to tackle is climate change. Why does it have to get so bad before people really do something about it. That's the one thing I find is such a difficult nut to crack. And it plays in businesses also. Always a big topic, obviously, change management and creating a sense of urgency.
Many bosses I had, jobs I had, it's being talked about, but it's so difficult to create a sense of urgency. I don't know if you know why.
[00:50:36] Speaker B: Well, I want to go head first in this. I think it's a great place to go. So we talk about being in the system. I'm going to bring what I think might be a funny reference point to hear, but, like, you know, rage against the machine.
Rage against the machine, one of the greatest bands of all time. Some of the most powerful, uplifting, inspiring lyrics of all time on a major label, sold, you know, like millions and millions of records. Those people are all very, very wealthy, you know, and they're off doing the.
Still being a great band, doing awesome stuff. A band in the system? Yeah. Did they really change anything, the idea? And, like, I don't know. And you don't know. Right. Like, you know, they exposed a lot of people to a lot of ideas. You and I are both talking about being in the system and creating change, but at the same time, you're also saying it's like, it takes a long time, though.
[00:51:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:51:29] Speaker B: So, like, if we go back to the idea of people just being like, I opt out of this whole thing entirely. I can understand that.
I don't think one's wrong or the other's right, but being in the system and trying to create change in moments where I'm like, hell, I'm really proud. Like, hell, yeah, I'm proud of what just happened there and, like, good stuff happened from there. That's a lot of work. So, like, I guess a question that I ask you, but I'm kind of asking me is like, are we. Are we convincing ourselves that by being in the system we're creating change or are we actually creating change? And it's kind of like raging its machine by being on a major label, although you're exposing people to those ideas, are those ideas doing anything?
[00:52:09] Speaker A: The answer has to be yes, because otherwise it would be a waste of time. So I do believe it creates change because people observe. And again, it may not be that what I say is going to make them change, but if maybe they hear it the third or the fifth time, at some point, I think people will take notice.
It will have an impact. Again, it's this. I think we need to bring patience to the change. So people will not change quickly. But I fully believe if I am in my senior role, I say, oh, I talk about veganism. I have a closing slide in the end that talks about climate change and stuff. People take notice of these things and it may not change something in the first instance, but it will change maybe if they see it for the third time. And I think the more of us are in the system, the more they will see it and the more I think it will click.
[00:53:06] Speaker B: I like what you're saying. It's kind of the idea. When I think of, oh, God, I'm going to use rage against the machine because I think it's just an easy touch point conversationally.
So if you don't think of change, like, let's say 10,000 people go to a rage against the machine concert, they don't all walk out as a result of that concert, be completely different people the next day. But maybe they buy a rage against the machine record or maybe they pick up a book that was that the lyrics inspired them to get interested in. And it's a process of like, slow, the slow drip of change.
Something that I try and confront myself with regularly is the way that I think about the world, the way that I do business.
Do I have, like, motivated reasoning around it? So as an example, I'm very motivated.
I'm extremely motivated by veganism, animal activism, these kinds of things. But I'm also motivated by the idea is that I want people to live free and happy lives. Like, I really want people to have an experience, to be happy for big portions of my life. I was deeply, deeply unhappy person and very angry and really depressed and confused about the world and why it worked this way. So I'm deeply motivated by these things, animal activism, and then creating, like, fair and equitable places where people can be healthy and happy at the same time.
What I try and confront myself with is maybe the business choices I make, maybe they just appear that way to me because I want them to appear that way to me because I want to feel that everything I do is connected to those two things. And, you know, the idea of, like, motivated reasoning is like there's an outcome that you, that you want and you want to feel a certain way. So all the reasoning you have around it makes sense around that. And then, of course, you bring in ideas like confirmation bias and all that. I do think, at least for me, and it's sounds like for you, like being a part of the system. It wasn't like a struggle for me. I wasn't like oh, I've sold out and I've given up, just like you. But I do try and be, like, pretty real with myself. Like, am I taking this contract and doing this piece of work? Because it's really in line with what I believe in.
[00:55:21] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's. I can relate to this. And I also, listening to you, I think for me also, I have this. There's also this competitive edge that I have. And that also was a motivation for me, I think. I think also was to show it to the system that you can also advance without completely fitting the mold. There was also that spurred my competitive edge to say, I can also get up there without buying into all of the things that you may be expected to.
That feels good.
[00:55:54] Speaker B: Talking about competition, people have different takes on competition. Some people think it's unhealthy. Other people, it's healthy. Where do you land with it?
[00:56:02] Speaker A: Joey Cape has that song going for the Bronx, which I like. I think it's a great tune. And this is funny to me. If I would describe this, I'm competitive in the sense of that I want to give it my best, but I'm also okay if it's a silver or the Bronx medal. So I wouldn't say having the gold medal is a disappointment. But I also know if you're the true, probably if you want to be the CEO, then these are the guys who would say gold or nothing. And I feel like I want to be competitive at a good level, but I don't have to be, you know, the number one. I think number three can be just as good.
[00:56:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
Where I land with it is, I used to be like, oh, I'm not competitive. I have this whole, like, corny story. I used to like, oh, I'm not competitive. But, like, I'm a very high achieving person. So I'm clear, I'm clearly competitive. Right? Like, I put a lot of time and effort into doing things well and distinguishing what I do so that it makes an impact. So these are, like, traits of someone who's competitive. But the way that I like to talk about it is, like, non toxic competition.
It's not competition to beat someone. It's competition. Cause you're trying to excel and do something special and meaningful.
[00:57:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:57:14] Speaker B: I'll give you an example from last night, actually. I like touring with odd man out.
And for those who don't know, I play in a band called change, and we're playing on tour right now with our friends odd man out. So half of odd man out's in change or half of change is odd man out. But odd man out is like a really good band. And when they play, kids go crazy, as you saw, last name. And I like playing with them because there's a really. There's like a 50 50 chance they're going to blow us off stage. And I like that. I don't want to play with a band that I know we're going to crush every single night.
It's not as interesting. I like playing with a band who I'm like, oh, they did good. I better do even better. And some days you walk out and you're like, we killed it. And you've excelled to a point. And it's not about beating them, it's about matching that energy and then trying to see what else you can bring to it. But then I also like bringing in a band like Spirit Crusher, where it's like, we did three sets and each set got crazier and crazier and crazier. So spirit Crusher took the night last night. They killed it. They were amazing.
[00:58:18] Speaker A: Amazing.
[00:58:18] Speaker B: And they literally brought the house down.
And then I'm not left feeling bad because I'm not.
[00:58:25] Speaker A: So. Did you?
[00:58:26] Speaker B: Well, thank you. But I believe they had the best side of the night and I'm excited for them. I'm like, I'm so psyched. I could see it. But that idea is that you get three bands that are all friends, they're all peers, but we're competing. We're all trying to have the best set that night. We're all trying to have the best crowd reaction. We're all trying to sell the most merch, but everyone is excited for everyone else and nobody feels bad about not being on that top spot. That's cool competition.
[00:58:54] Speaker A: I love that. And it totally goes with how I look at it, because when I listen to you, I think competition for me means, in the end, giving it your best. I think that's what's motivating. I wouldn't look at it as like beating somebody. It's just giving it your best. And I also have this. I often think about if you were in a very small town, so how things unfolded when there was the first settlers doing something, and I would not. I would say if I live in a small community and I'm good in growing something or I'm good in building something, then to me, being competitive would be that I try to do the best in what I'm good at, that I would say, in this community, we grow nice big apples. But it wouldn't mean to me to say I need to be the mayor of the town or something, it just means you understand what you're good at and you want to then really be good at what you're good at.
[00:59:52] Speaker B: So going back to your career, what's next for you?
[00:59:55] Speaker A: Retirement?
No, that's what I honestly, what they say you probably then they call it plateau code or something.
I really believe I'm at an age now, so for bigger callings, I believe it's not going to happen. And, yeah, I hope I'm still valuable with now. You have experience you bring, and I start to try to stay fresh and young.
I really love this, what they call lifelong learning. So it's always something new coming up. I'm interested in it, yeah. So I hope I could enjoy it. But I also do have to say I look forward to having a life without work at some point.
[01:00:38] Speaker B: I'm interested in that.
I'm 49 now, so I've still got, I'd say I'm like mid late career. Like, I'm not quite late career just yet.
I have kind of a destination. I'll probably work for about another eleven years or something like that, but I don't think I'll ever stop working. Like, I don't, I don't think I'll be working full time, so.
But I'll always be active. So what do you think would be the next big thing for you, though?
[01:01:07] Speaker A: It will be animal rights, so I will, whatever it will be will have to do with animal rights. So I'm not sure if I want to write something, if I want to get involved with an organization, but that's, it's been since I was a teenager, been present, and I've been active.
But if I want to make more impact in my life, it will be in this area. So that will be my focus.
[01:01:31] Speaker B: All right, so we're heading towards what we call the crucial three. And there are three questions that are getting increasingly more difficult as we go along. But before we hit the crucial three, is there anything that you want to share about the work that you do, about your title, about animal rights, about Poncarcor? Are there any questions you want to ask me?
[01:01:50] Speaker A: I think we covered a lot of territory, so, no, I love this dialogue. It's wonderful. And I think we've met for the first time, but that's, for me, it's similar when you go into a vegan restaurant, I always love that feeling.
You know, already you step in and there's so much commonality, so much shared values and thinking and that gives me a lot of energy. Again, having met you guys, the band now talking to you, that gives me hope, confidence, good energy. And so I enjoy this time with you and.
[01:02:27] Speaker B: All right, so you ready to go?
[01:02:28] Speaker A: I'm ready to go.
[01:02:29] Speaker B: Okay, so pick one record. One record where there was you before hearing that record, and then after, you're just different. That record changed you in some way where you were never the same again.
[01:02:43] Speaker A: That's nations on Fire. And I forget the name of the album, but it's the one that everybody knows.
[01:02:48] Speaker B: Was it. Drop the match.
[01:02:50] Speaker A: Strike the match.
[01:02:51] Speaker B: Strike the match. Strike the match.
[01:02:52] Speaker A: Thank you.
[01:02:53] Speaker B: Yeah. Strike the match. Great record. Yeah, really great. So why that one?
[01:02:57] Speaker A: It's just the energy, the messaging that captures to me a lot of what I would say hardcore is about.
[01:03:04] Speaker B: If you consider yourself and you think of yourself as a whole being, but also a being with real, not conflicting parts, like being. Being a punk person and then also being part of the corporate structure, you've made it all work.
Is there any part of those two, I guess connected but almost conflicting backgrounds. Is there any part that you haven't been able to reconcile?
[01:03:32] Speaker A: It is probably that I put my resources and my energies into something that ultimately, for instance, causes harm to animal.
It's part of the capitalist system that I'm working in. And for being into the system, you also contribute to the system and that I sometimes have questions about. If I would have stayed outside of the system, I could have maybe made impact without supporting it.
[01:04:01] Speaker B: All right, final question.
So if we think of young people coming up and there's two different groups, I want you to consider here. So let's consider people, young people coming up who are just leaving school, getting into the business world. What advice would you have for someone who's not connected to punk or hardcore, who's getting into the business world, who wants to make a difference?
[01:04:24] Speaker A: Be bold. Be yourself. Be daring.
Challenge the system.
[01:04:30] Speaker B: What about for people in punk and hardcore who are just leaving school and they've got that option to kind of like, opt out as we've been talking about? I'm opting out or I'm gonna choose to go in and kind of have like, a normal job or a corporate job. What advice would you give those people entering into the work world?
[01:04:44] Speaker A: I would say listen to your heart and choose what feels right to you, because I.
I choose what I did and I don't know if it was the best choice. So I think you have to go with your gut feeling and you can always change course. Also, if you. I believe you choose the left path and you feel you should have taken the right turn, you can always do that.
[01:05:08] Speaker B: Excellent. Awesome. Anything else you want to add in?
[01:05:11] Speaker A: No, I'm good. I'm just going to say thank you.
[01:05:14] Speaker B: This is a great conversation, man. All right, everybody, thanks so much for your time. You know, the one thing I'd leave you with is, you know, I know when we're talking about career path and all that, it could kind of feel like, man, this is so daunting. There's so many choices to make. I think what Thorson said there, just follow your heart. Really, just follow your heart. And sometimes following your heart might lead you down a career path where you're like, oh, this sucks. I thought it was this one thing, but it's another thing. Great change. And I know it's not as easy as great. Just change, change. Like, there's economics involved. You might have family that you're. That you want to take care of. You might want to keep up a certain standard of life. But I also encourage you is like, rarely are people totally trapped. There's usually resources. There's usually someone to talk to. It doesn't mean it's going to be easy, either. So I love that idea of what Thorson said. Be bold, be yourself. Try things, follow your heart, and also know you can change. There's different paths. So until next time, my name's Aram Arslanian, and this is one step beyond. One step, one step, one step beyond.
