Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: So I want to circle back to not taking things personally.
I'm really interested in your take on that because, again, you're a very opinionated person, but you're also a person that I know feels things quite deeply. So how have you managed that as you've grown as a professional?
[00:00:16] Speaker B: Well, I think that it hasn't always been easy for me. I think the right combination of trial and error in relationships, having a great relationship with a great therapist, where I can just sit down and say, these are all the things that are bothering me this week. And, you know, I have been in situations where I've had my buttons pressed by employees. And I get off the phone and I'm like, I kind of want to cry right now.
You know, that's. That's happened more than once, for sure. But I think that there you need to have a healthy dose of self awareness, and you have a healthy dose of awareness of other people and their feelings.
And so I want to be conscious of the fact that everybody comes to interactions with their own set of issues, their own way of dealing with things. And I can't peel back all the layers of that, you know, at the beginning of a conversation or a conflict or whatever.
But just having that front of mind allows me to approach it from a more objective lens.
Because if you allow things to be overly personal, it can lead to friction and it can lead to unnecessary conflict. And sometimes conflict is inevitable. And taking an objective approach, I think, allows you to cultivate conflict in a healthy way. I think it's easy to take the approach like that. You don't take things personally as a means to avoiding conflict, but that shouldn't be the goal. Knowing that conflict can be inevitable and knowing what to do with it when the conflict arises is really important.
[00:02:21] Speaker A: So what advice do you have for people listening to this around not taking it personally. And I want to hit on something specifically because it's something you said earlier on in the podcast about when I said, what misconceptions do people have about hr? Like, oh, that it's kind of like we're like the cops of the workplace. And then also you talked about having a new leader who came in, someone that you were working with who is really skeptical of you or maybe skeptical of the function. Those are tough places to be in, man. Because again, I've said this a lot. It's like, I know you, and I know how much stuff like that could really bother you and really hurt you. So how do you manage having people maybe view your profession or what you're doing in a negative lens right off the bat or being sick skeptical of you. How do you, how do you keep from taking that personally and then bring the right stuff to the table?
[00:03:16] Speaker B: I lead with questions. You know, if I, if I see someone is presenting a judgment about me or what I do, I want to know where that comes from. And so I just, you know, take a curious stance of like, okay, like what one of your past experiences have led you to believe that things are this way and just really trying to get to a place of understanding with that. And also a huge thing for my personal life that I've taken into every aspect of my life, whether it's personal, professional, whatever is the ability to accept non disclosure. We are not guaranteed anything and our reactions or in our interactions with others and the ability to walk away from something with it not going the way that you wanted or planned is a pretty incredible gift.
I've had to practice that a lot in my personal life over the last few years. And it's, it's hard. It's like one of the hardest things to do as a human being. You know, we want to have all these interactions in our life to be like wrapped up in, you know, pretty, pretty packaged in bow and say, look at this thing I did. Like, look at this problem that I solved.
It's a beautiful thing now, but that's not always the reality. And that's, that's okay.
Non disclosure is so essential to not letting those things destroy you.
[00:05:03] Speaker A: I really like that I'll add something to it. I really like what you said about leading with questions. So the job that I do and the company that I have, it's like, we help professionals grow, especially leaders. And it could be individual or we could work with teams, or we could do courses, all sorts of stuff. But what I do specifically is I work with senior leaders in their development, as they develop their teams, all that kind of stuff. And occasionally I will have people, if I just meet them or early relationship, take crazy liberties with me, like say things like, I sat down one day and I was meeting with someone who was brand new to a company, then been brought in to like shake things up, to like really change stuff in a company. And one of the first things they did was look at all the consultants. And I sat down with this person. They're like, yeah, so I just want to let you know that like we're getting rid of most of our consultants. And I was like, okay, that's fine. And they're like, yeah, you know how it is with Consultants, most consultants are parasites. And I was like, oh, yeah, tell me more. He's like, well, you know how it is. I'm like, well, no, you tell me how it is. And I suddenly had this person not on the defensive, but they came in like, kind of like with that a little bit of bravado, like, I'm about to tell you how it is. I was like, cool, tell me how it is. Like, I want to hear it. And we ended up having this like super long conversation where I didn't get upset at all. And I wasn't a jerk, I wasn't mean, but I just kept asking questions and like going, going deeper. And at one point I was like, I just want to kind of ask you. Do you usually come in and call someone a parasite to their face and expect to get a good reaction? And he was like, I didn't mean to do, I didn't mean to do that. Like, I think I came across the wrong way. I was like, I think you came across in a way that you come across to people. And I'm probably just the first person who, who didn't take it from you. But I didn't freak out, nor did I shrink away. And if you cut my contract, you got my contract, that's fine.
[00:06:56] Speaker B: Of course.
[00:06:57] Speaker A: And we ended up having this really good dialog. We talked for quite a while. And this was many, many, many years ago. And this is like one of my most long standing business relationships as it was someone who, I had to earn their respect. Like, I recognized that what they were saying wasn't necessarily wrong, at least from their perspective, that they'd had a lot of bad experiences. And if I'd been like, how dare you say that about me? I would have just been another, another one of those stories. It's like, oh, so I did have to like go through that crucible. And again, people could say, well, you shouldn't have had to go through that. Okay, conceivably hold up that piece of paper on LinkedIn and tell me I shouldn't have had to go through that. Yeah, you're not wrong. I shouldn't have someone come in and tell me that, like, everyone who's a consultant's a par. A parasite. But I knew that this person I didn't know in the moment, like right away, but I had a sense like, hey, I'm not going to have someone say that to me and me just shrink away. But I'm also not going to freak out. I had to be in the conversation with them. And within a few minutes I knew that I could at least move them a little bit in that discussion. And then it wasn't like the end of that discussion. And suddenly it was fine. They didn't cut our contract.
I worked with this person at that place for a long time. And we didn't just become good colleagues, we became friends. And from company to company to company as this person's moved. They always brought me along with them. And we always joke about this convers because it was one of those moments in your life where someone comes in and they act like an ass, like an asshole. And you totally. I didn't have to take it, and I didn't take it. I didn't run away, I didn't freak out. And I think there's something about like kind of earning that spot. Nothing's promised, nothing's given, but being in the conversation. And I think that's like a, at least for me, part of it. But the other thing sometimes people hit me with is like, oh, you're just like a. I don't know how much I should trust you. I think you just, you're gonna repeat everything I, I say to you to my boss. It's like, really think you're, you think you're so important that your company has hired an extremely high paid a consultant to come in and spy on you. Like that's where this is what you think about yourself. And it's usually how I handle it. I start laughing. I'm like, you gotta be kidding me. I'm like, hey, we don't have to work together. I just had this conversation with someone just the other day. I was like, I am totally cool if we don't work together, it is not a problem to me. And they're like, well, you're going to lose your contract. I don't care. I don't care. Like if you think, if you think your company, if you think your company, big or small, is hiring someone, anyone, to spy on you bi weekly for an hour, I think, I think our conversation's done. And I'll tell you, nine times out of 10, it's a conversation we can go back to and laugh about later. But like one of those times I never speak to that person again. And there is a line of being in the discussion with someone and being like, hey, I just need to work with this person through this and see where it goes. And there has to be other times where you're like, no, I'm not doing, I'm not going to have this conversation with you. I think not taking things personally, but also knowing where your limits are is, like, is really important.
[00:10:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree with that. And I think along the lines of not taking things personally is that the awareness that assumptions have the ability to erode trust is really important. And identifying what other people's assumptions about you or your work is, in a way that's helpful for you to sort of be like, oh, this person's making an assumption about me. What can I question or push back upon to. To be like, hey, where did you get that opinion? Can we talk about that? And hopefully they're open to that, because sometimes people can be really defensive about the points of view that they hold. And on this one hand, they could be defensive.
They recognize that some of those opinions are not defendable.
[00:10:58] Speaker A: I want to go back to something we were talking about, about flaming companies on LinkedIn, but, like, kind of zoom out from that is, you know, Chris from Left 4 Dead was on the podcast, like, in the very, very early days of the podcast. And I had him on a podcast where I was talking about, like, Immersion Industries. And this is when, like, there was this real up swing of vegan products, and I was super interested. And then I had another guy on who was part of, like, the. The. The pot industry, the marijuana industry, where there was that whole up upswing. And there were, like, two youngish people who were business people that were part of this thing. And I had them both on talking about it and when big business money starts coming into something that previously was like a niche. And it was like they had two different opinions. One was, yeah, I welcome all that big business money, because now we're going to take this thing that was niche, and we're going to be able to get it out there to an audience that wants it, and it's medicinal, it's going to help people and all this. So that was a really interesting one. Chris had this totally different take, and it's something I talk a lot about on this podcast. And he was like, well, basically, if you believe in something, you start with the idea is, wouldn't it be so great if everyone believed this and if this idea changed the world?
But then big money gets involved and corporations get involved, and you have to ask yourself a question, do they actually care about this, or am I just feeding into an oligarchy? And of course, I was like, oh, my God, tell me more.
And he was like, at what point do you recognize that they don't just want this group's money, they want everybody's money, and they don't care about anything. They're just going to pick anything that can get them all of the money. All of these companies just want all, all of the money. And so while young, me who just got into veganism was like, hell yeah, Wouldn't it be amazing if, if vegan. If, if everyone knew about veganism? The reality of that is this corporate money's in there. And all this corporate money is just about create. Is just about maintaining oligarchies. And it really like, shifted my thinking about, like you said Burger King having like a vegan burger and all that. And I'm not saying I'm for nor against it, but it was like a really, it was a very, very interesting way of looking at things. And it's forever, like, really changed how I interact with some of this stuff. But what are your thoughts on that?
[00:13:27] Speaker B: Well, first of all, shout out vegan magic bacon grease and Parmageddon also kind of rip to both of those things.
But, oh, gosh, this is something that I think about constantly. You know, the example that I brought up earlier about Oscar Mayer with hot dogs was something that I really did a huge deep dive on. Huge deep dive. They partnered with the Notco, which is like a South American food tech company who's made like, not milk. And they've done vegan cheese slices with Kraft and now they've done vegan hot dogs with, with Oscar Mayer. And there are a couple of ways to look at it. Like, yes, wouldn't it be great if everybody knew about veganism?
Yeah, but, like, accessibility is really important. I think it's super important. And things can be for you or not for you. Like, whether or not you're like, do I go to Burger King? You get an impossible burger. Either opinion is fine.
I think the thing that really irked me in my research on the longest LinkedIn comment ever in response to that article was like the oligarchy of Oscar Meyer.
Trying to say that they created the best vegan hot dog ever was absolutely infuriating. And looking into the history of vegan foods, I think that I was able to pinpoint that Loma Linda Foods, which is kind of in, like, North Bay, California, they've been making, like, vegan and vegetarian meats and stuff like that for longer than Oscar Meyer's been around since like the late 1800s.
Someone's going to fact check me on that. I probably. But it was amazing that, like, Oscar Mayer was using their authority in the meat space to be like, we are uniquely positioned to give you the best vegan hot dog ever. Created. I'm just like, some 7 7th Day Adventists in Northern California would bake today differ. And I'm here to advocate for the specific comment that no one will read.
[00:16:03] Speaker A: Dude, I, I, it's like Monica and I are this morning, so we're, we, we travel a ton for the podcast and work and everything. And we, we're like real snackers when we travel. Like, first of all, when we go, we, like, go search, search out the best vegan restaurants. But when we fly, we, like, Monica brings all these snacks. And, like, one of our favorite snacks are these.
The rhesus vegan mini peanut butter cups are so good. They're, like, unbelievably good. And we were talking about it this morning. We're like, I don't know, where do we land on this? Like, part of it? It's like, it's sick that we can have this. Like, it is totally unbelievable that we could have it. And we are way, way more driven to doing, like, smaller companies that, like, like smaller independent companies or companies that are, like, driven by. They might be venture capital, but it's like venture capital that we think is, like, kind of like ethically investing in companies, blah, blah, blah, all the stuff. But it's like, there's a little bit of a balance and there's. The balances have been, like, overall, we think, like, if it's vegan in general, we're feeling pretty good about it, but we can try and break up where we're spending our money as best as we can while also, just, like, enjoying some stuff that we haven't been able to enjoy.
It's not easy because I don't have, like, a, I don't have, like, a, a straight up answer because I also, I work in, like, major organized, like, major businesses, so I'm not, like, against working with major businesses. But I think going back to the heart of what Chris said, though, is like, be wary of oligarchies and them just wanting all the money versus, like, they don't care. They just want all the money. And there's, like, a danger in that.
[00:17:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I'm very critical of big business as a consumer of big and small business, but I think that it's important to go into things with eyes open.
[00:17:54] Speaker A: All right, man, so we're heading towards the end of the interview, but before we get there, is there anything that you want to ask me? Anything you want to bring up, anything you want to shout out?
[00:18:02] Speaker B: What do people usually do when you.
[00:18:04] Speaker A: Get to this part they say nothing. They say, no, I'm good, but say whatever you want, man.
[00:18:13] Speaker B: I, I, I kind of, I kind of want to plug no Echo. If you like hardcore, read stuff on no Echo.
Throw Carlos some money on Patreon.
There's hopefully going to be an ad free tier soon. Contribute something if you're involved in hardcore.
[00:18:36] Speaker A: Yeah, huge shout out to Carlos. Like, man A, I just love Carlos. Just a good, good person, like really about it, but also like a real adult, you know, doesn't suck. Like good, good person, but also like just doing something because you believe in it and it's super awesome. And like homeboy just represents the underground in such a cool way. I really, really appreciate him for sure and appreciate everyone that writes for no Echo, including you.
[00:19:07] Speaker B: Thank you. Yeah, he's awesome. He just lets me do whatever I want, which I appreciate. Like, I'm about to do a four part article on Bakersfield and he's like, this sounds great. I just played Bakersfield for the first time in January and I met like this amazing group of people and they're just so passionate about their town despite it being Bakersfield, which they're well aware of.
But I'm really excited to, you know, share that with people. And Carlos is just like, yeah, this sounds great.
[00:19:47] Speaker A: I think I played Bakersfield once. It might be more than that, but the very first time I played Bakersfield was with like a very early hardcore band that I played in. And there was a, a band that played. They were a vegan, straight edge band. They were like little kids, like little, little kids. And they covered vocal tests by integrity. And it was the coolest thing I ever, I was just like losing my mind.
And the guitar player and the singer were clearly best friends and like ultra passionate about it. And they were both wearing those like military style hats, those like, you know, what we call mosh caps now, but way before anyone else was. And I was like, people are, people are serious. They're very serious.
[00:20:34] Speaker B: Yes. I've covered vocal tests in my time too, so I can relate to that.
[00:20:40] Speaker A: But buddy, were you doing this in like 99 or 2000?
[00:20:46] Speaker B: No, I was doing this in 2022.
[00:20:50] Speaker A: I know. Like, I'm saying that these people were like forerunners in doing this. It was sick. They might have had two singers, like a guy and a girl. I can't remember. They were like, they were awesome in their own way. That's my only memory of Bakersfield.
[00:21:05] Speaker B: That's a great one.
[00:21:07] Speaker A: Thank you. Okay, let's go into the crucial three, crucial three. Are the three difficult questions they're going to scale in difficulty as we go through it. You ready to go?
[00:21:15] Speaker B: I'm ready.
[00:21:17] Speaker A: The first question is, in what ways have you changed the job, and in what ways has the job changed you?
[00:21:27] Speaker B: I would say that I've changed the job for other people with how many times I've heard people say, wow, I didn't expect to have this kind of conversation with a person from hr or, you're not the type of person I imagined when I thought of HR traditionally.
And so I think that because of that, at least in my own bubble of hr, it's positive, whereas a lot of people have a really negative view of hr.
And how has it changed me?
It has taught me to maintain objectivity and empathy even in really challenging situations.
Sometimes you get on the phone with someone and they want to tell you their life story, and they just want to be heard, and they're a complete stranger. So just the awareness that you're automatically a safe space for someone is something that's had an activity, Recognizing that that's an opportunity to make a difference in that person's life.
[00:22:56] Speaker A: Okay, so we live in a time that is very polarized, very divided, and there's all sorts of conversations, like, let's say, at Christmas or, you know, during Thanksgiving or whatever it is. It's like, if your family. If parts of your family believe this, then don't invite them to dinner. Or if they believe that, don't invite them to dinner. So it's like a really intense, intense time for all the reasons that we could talk about.
But you work in a job where you have to serve everybody.
So what on your Are your thoughts on how to really partner with everyone, regardless of their personal beliefs in the workplace?
[00:23:40] Speaker B: Well, I would say that my political agenda doesn't pay my bills.
My ability to understand and be understood does. And so I would say that while showing up fully, authentically is what I strive for, having to recognize, where that begins and where that ends is a key component to being able to serve all different types of people.
[00:24:17] Speaker A: Okay, are you ready for the hardest question?
[00:24:20] Speaker B: Bring it on.
[00:24:22] Speaker A: So you're originally from California, right?
[00:24:25] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:24:28] Speaker A: What are the three most culturally important punk or hardcore bands from California of all time?
[00:24:37] Speaker B: Ooh, sorry. Good question.
Three is not enough, Honestly.
[00:24:44] Speaker A: But you only got three, man.
[00:24:48] Speaker B: Chain of strength.
That would be number one.
Number two would be, oh, man, there's so many, like, personal, subjective, you know, choices in here. Because I want to say, like, set it Straight and Lights out and Lifelong tragedy and Stuff like that.
[00:25:18] Speaker A: Why can't you? It's your perspective.
[00:25:21] Speaker B: Okay, so still number one is Chain of Strength.
Obviously.
Gosh, this is. This. You did save the hardest question I thought you were going to ask me, like, from being confirmed, California, do you wrap your burrito in foil or wax paper? Like, that's. That's an easy question.
Gosh, why did you have to make this so hard? I'm, like, in utter acne right now.
Okay, here we go. Chain of Strength, the nerve agents, and afi.
[00:26:04] Speaker A: These are great answers, dude. First of all, AFI comes up when I ask people this question. They're, like, probably the most commonly brought up nerve agents, more often than not, is actually brought up as being, like, really culturally significant. Like, I love nerve agents, especially Days of the White Owl, which is just, like, perfection. Like, everything about that record is perfect. But not a bad record at all. Like, they don't have any bad records. If I like. I mean, AFI is like, again, how to. How to be. How to do a professional band and not. Not let it turn you into a bunch of. A bunch of dorks. Like, good for them, you know? Like, they really. They really set a high standard.
Chain of Strength, I would debate with you on that. But it's, you know, it's your list, man, so you gotta. You gotta. You gotta have it.
[00:26:48] Speaker B: What's. What's your rebuttal to that?
[00:26:51] Speaker A: Instead.
Instead, I. I would maybe write volumes on why Instead is probably one of the most culturally significant hardcore bands of all time and how I would have previously said Chain of Strength. I was literally thinking about this this morning, and it's just about where I'm at in my life and what I value now versus when I was young. But it's not a wrong answer.
[00:27:14] Speaker B: It's just.
[00:27:14] Speaker A: We just have different perspectives. Anyways, for another conversation. I think that's a great list. And especially love the last two. And it's not that I'm a hater on Chain. I love Chain. I just instead, like, up there.
[00:27:28] Speaker B: That's good. That's great.
[00:27:30] Speaker A: All right, man.
We did it. How was it for you?
[00:27:35] Speaker B: Wonderful.
[00:27:36] Speaker A: Oh, fantastic. All right, well, listen, I got a lot out of this today. Any last words as we're signing off?
[00:27:43] Speaker B: Thank you for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity and your friendship and all that good stuff.
[00:27:53] Speaker A: Heck, yeah. Everyone, as we're signing off, you know, one of the things you would have heard on here is, like, a lot of talk about, like, kind of figuring out who you are as a professional versus who you are. Like, kind of from when you're grown up and you're kind of in the thing you're in, and it's one of the things that I. I really want to encourage people to think about. There is a ton of conversation out there. It's like, everything should be perfect for you in all situations, and you should be exactly who you want to be in every situation that is totally fine, go on and do that. And I hope it works out for you. I'm not saying it won't, but more likely than not, you will find at least one place in your life, if not multiple, where you're going to have to kind of, like, figure out how you show up and move with things and maybe compromise and maybe reflect and maybe even realize that the way you want things or the things that you think aren't how they should or aren't necessarily accurate. And I'm not saying it's like you do that at a certain age of your life. Where I'm at in my life, I'm still figuring out how I show up as a professional and what do I want to do and what do I want to say and where do I want to be. It is a lifelong thing. But if you want conversations that just tell you that everything you do is perfect, there is so much stuff out there for you. But if you come to this podcast, the thing you're going to hear is someone like Thomas talking about how you can be an ultra principled person and live those principles and still have to kind of figure out how you navigate that in your professional life and your personal life as you move forward. And I think that's probably one of the coolest things about having the podcast for me is hearing people I respect really hold up a mirror for themselves and share that with other people. About, like, yeah, like, this isn't easy, but it's that that process that people go through that is part of refining people into being the amazing people that they are and continue to be. So with that, Thomas, you rock, man. Thank you so much for being on the show and everyone. We'll see you next time on One Step Beyond. One Step.
One Step.
What's that beyond.
